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Speaker 1: Here here is certitude you swore below this lightning blasted tree,

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Speaker 1: where once it strikes, it strikes no more fool. And

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Speaker 1: you sang, here is a three, and in this three

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Speaker 1: love lies unshaken as now, so must it always be.

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Speaker 1: You sang, with harsh notes, to awaken that ancient toad

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Speaker 1: who sits andmurred within your hearthstone light forsaken. He knows

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Speaker 1: that limits long endured must open out in vanity, that

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Speaker 1: gates by bolts of gold secured must open out in vanity.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 1: Lamb, and I am Joe McCormick, and we are back

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Speaker 1: with part two in our series on the fire Place

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Speaker 1: and the Hearth. That reading at the opening was an

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Speaker 1: excerpt from not the whole poem, but an exerpt from

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Speaker 1: a poem called Essay on Knowledge by the poet Robert Graves,

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Speaker 1: the author of I Claudius, or as some might call

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Speaker 1: it Iclavdivs. And so this poem we were a little confused,

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Speaker 1: because Rob, you dug this up, and I'd never read

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Speaker 1: it before, but I really liked it. But we were

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Speaker 1: confused because we were finding multiple versions of the same poem.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out that's not an error. There actually

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Speaker 1: are multiple versions of this poem. So it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like with some of these Walt Whitman poems, where like,

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Speaker 1: you know, he published multiple drafts of the same work.

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Speaker 1: That's going on here. Graves published an early version of

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Speaker 1: the poem called Essay on Knowledge, and then a later

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Speaker 1: one called Vanity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's I mean, it's really getting into some

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Speaker 2: stuff to blow your mind territory, because not only do

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Speaker 2: we have a hearthstone with an ancient toad beneath it,

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Speaker 2: we also have a lightning blasted tree.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a unintended resonance there. But as I said, I'd

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Speaker 1: never read this before, I really love it now. It

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Speaker 1: seems to describe the poet's internal struggle between reason and passion.

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Speaker 1: So he's characterizing half of his soul as a kind

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Speaker 1: of unflappable scholar aspiring to aloof rationality, that part of

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Speaker 1: himself attached to the day side kingdom of Christendom and

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Speaker 1: the Enlightenment, and then the other part of him hidden

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Speaker 1: underneath this Thonian pagan dragon of weird emotion emotion, lust,

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Speaker 1: and magic, I think are the themes of the suppressed part.

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Speaker 1: In fact, we didn't quote this part of the poem,

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Speaker 1: but in an earlier stanza he refers to it as

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Speaker 1: a dragon, and the balance of the poem seems to

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Speaker 1: suggest that as much as the rationality of civilization tries

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Speaker 1: to rule over the self, the dragon of lust and

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Speaker 1: emotion and passion will inevitably at some point be unleashed

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Speaker 1: from his tomb and reign again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, basically, he's saying, I really want to be a

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Speaker 2: good Christian scholar, dude, but somebody buried this pagan psychomania

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Speaker 2: frog underneath my hearth and there's nothing I can do

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, the focal lines for us are interesting because

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Speaker 1: when I first read the poem, you know, I thought

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Speaker 1: that it was supposed to be the speaker's suppressed emotion

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Speaker 1: and carnal desire that were embodied as that ancient toad

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Speaker 1: who sits and mirrored within your hearthstone light forsaken. In

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Speaker 1: other words, I took the toad as another form of

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Speaker 1: the pagan dragon. However, I was reading an essay about

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Speaker 1: Graves called Philosophical Speculations mock Beggar Hall Welchman's Hose and

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Speaker 1: Poetic Unreason by a critic named Patrick Quinn. Not otherwise

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Speaker 1: familiar with this critic, but Quinn writes about this part

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Speaker 1: of the poem that quote the cries awaken only an

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Speaker 1: ancient toad symbol of the philosophic awareness of the Apollonian

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Speaker 1: and Dionysian duality in man's nature, referring to that division

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Speaker 1: between the sort of Apollonian reason and Dionysian passion that

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Speaker 1: is discussed in Plato's dialogue The Feedrus. But anyway, so

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Speaker 1: you get that line after that in the poem, where

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Speaker 1: Grave says he knows the limits long endured must open

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Speaker 1: out in vanity, and the he in that line seems

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Speaker 1: to be the toad. So if Quinn is correct, the

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Speaker 1: toad is not the dragon of passion and emotion, not

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Speaker 1: that Dionysy in half of the struggle, but instead the

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Speaker 1: sage who observes and describes the struggle to us. The

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Speaker 1: toad immurred beneath the hearth is Socrates. But anyway, this

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Speaker 1: line kind of reminds me of that thing. So like

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Speaker 1: the toad is buried beneath the hearthstone and it reminds

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Speaker 1: me of the thing we talked about in the previous

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Speaker 1: episode of the Void buried Amulets, where you know, by

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Speaker 1: symbolic law of contagion that now means Socrates is a

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Speaker 1: witch bottle full of urine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and later on in the episode we'll get back

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Speaker 2: to something buried under the hearthstone and there will be.

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Speaker 1: Toads Now to recap a bit about the previous episode.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't heard it, I would recommend going back

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Speaker 1: and checking that out first. But in part one of

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Speaker 1: the series, we talked about what interior fireplaces mean to

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Speaker 1: us culturally by looking at the characteristics of hearthfire simulations

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Speaker 1: such as the assorted fireplace for your home style media

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Speaker 1: offerings that have become very popular as ambient streaming video

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Speaker 1: in recent years, including I think we talked about some

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Speaker 1: kind of burn barrel for your home linked to some

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Speaker 1: dystopian movie and also your witcher fireplace beloved in your house, Rob.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't know if I mentioned this one,

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Speaker 2: but there's a squid game one. Now. Did I mention

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Speaker 2: that in the last episode.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned just finding out about it?

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, I haven't watched it yet, but

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Speaker 2: I'm excited. This is the most exciting thing I know

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Speaker 2: about on Netflix. Is this squid game fireplace? Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: may fire it up tonight.

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Speaker 1: Nice. But also in the last episode, we talked briefly

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Speaker 1: about research into the pre history of humans and our

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Speaker 1: close hominin relatives, how our relationship too and then control

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Speaker 1: of fire probably developed over the last couple of million years,

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Speaker 1: and how fire fundamentally changed so much about human life,

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Speaker 1: from nutrition to technology, to our relationship with the climate

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Speaker 1: and with wildlife. After this, we talked about how a

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Speaker 1: modern domestic fireplace is usually constructed and how it works, or,

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Speaker 1: depending on your emphasis, how it doesn't work given its

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Speaker 1: massive inefficiency as a heat source for the home. Estimates vary,

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Speaker 1: but something like eighty or ninety percent of the heat

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Speaker 1: put out by a standard wood fire is lost just

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Speaker 1: straight up the chimney and goes right out the flu

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Speaker 1: and depending on the design, a wood fireplace can sometimes

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Speaker 1: even make a house colder overall, even though it heats

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Speaker 1: up one room, you know, makes one room nice and toasty,

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Speaker 1: but freezes out the rest of the house. We discussed

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Speaker 1: the mechanics of that in Part one, and of course,

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Speaker 1: all of this material energy analysis is useful to know,

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Speaker 1: but it's not going to make hearthfire any less beautiful

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Speaker 1: or attractive or magical to us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as well as deeply nostalgic and comforting. Yeah, we're

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Speaker 2: connecting with something very primal when we view a fireplace.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And on that note, finally, in the last episode,

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Speaker 1: we talked about the idea of the fireplace and its

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Speaker 1: connected ventilation system as a portal for magical entrances and

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Speaker 1: exits in many folk beliefs, as a sort of for

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Speaker 1: one thing, a sort of transporter platform to the gods,

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Speaker 1: but beyond that, as a weak spot in the home's

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Speaker 1: defense against spells and witchcraft. And this led to interesting

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Speaker 1: examples of apotropaic magic associated with the hearth So thinking

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Speaker 1: of the fireplace as a gap in the armor that

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Speaker 1: had to be protected, perhaps by witch traps or other

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Speaker 1: magically potent items, maybe shoes. Yeah. Now, in the last episode,

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Speaker 1: idea that I mentioned briefly and said I would come

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Speaker 1: back to today was about the idea of domestic hearth

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Speaker 1: fire and the nature of the light it provides. When

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Speaker 1: you think about it, firelight is different both in quantity

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Speaker 1: of light produced and in quality from daylight and that

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Speaker 1: fact should not be overlooked when understanding the role of

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Speaker 1: fire in culture, especially if it is the primary or

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Speaker 1: the only source of artificial light, but even in cases

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Speaker 1: where you're just sort of optionally choosing to have a

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Speaker 1: room lit by a fire. And this brings me to

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Speaker 1: an interesting paper I came across about a less material,

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Speaker 1: less economic, but probably no less important way that control

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Speaker 1: of fire may have altered human culture all over the

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Speaker 1: world in prehistory. So this paper was by a scholar

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Speaker 1: named Polly Weissner, who is an anthropology professor at the

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Speaker 1: University of Utah, and it is called Imbers of Society

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Speaker 1: Firelight Talk among the Jutuan ce Bushmen, published in Proceedings

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Speaker 1: of the National Academy of Sciences twenty fourteen. And so

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Speaker 1: the author here, Weisner, acknowledges that there has been a

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Speaker 1: lot of research on how the human control of fire

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Speaker 1: may have affected lots of things about us, may have

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Speaker 1: affected our physical evolution and anatomy. This again is a

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Speaker 1: reference to the interesting but not completely proven cooking hypothesis,

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Speaker 1: which we talked about a bit in the last episode.

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Speaker 1: And there's no doubt that it has affected our technology

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Speaker 1: and the design of our social and living spaces. But

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Speaker 1: then Liisner writes, quote, However, little is known about what

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Speaker 1: transpired when firelight extended the day, creating effective time for

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Speaker 1: social activities that did not conflict with productive time for

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Speaker 1: subsistence activities. And I thought this was so int So

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Speaker 1: this sort of acknowledges that while fire can extend the

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Speaker 1: amount of time in the day in which you can

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Speaker 1: stay awake and stay awake and conduct some activities, the

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Speaker 1: light of a campfire is not sufficient to illuminate the

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Speaker 1: majority of subsistence activities, like the main economic duties of survival,

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Speaker 1: such as gathering and processing food. So when there's firelight,

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Speaker 1: there is enough light that it gives you time to

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Speaker 1: be awake and to see each other and to interact,

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Speaker 1: but not really good enough light to do much useful work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and again this is something that we so easily

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Speaker 2: take for granted in are so easily illuminated world. I know,

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Speaker 2: just for my own part, my immediate neighbors usually don't

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Speaker 2: have their backyard floodlights on during the night, But if

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Speaker 2: they do come on in the night, or they're left

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Speaker 2: on during the night by accident, I'll sometimes notice that,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think I could read a book here

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Speaker 2: in my bedroom at three in the morning, Like, it's

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Speaker 2: entirely possible based on the anthient illumination provided by their floodlights.

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Speaker 2: And you know that's just at that level of accidental

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Speaker 2: illumination was just not something you had for the majority

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Speaker 2: of human history.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that highlights. How of course, firelight is different

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Speaker 1: from daylight, but electrical light is different once again from firelight. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So how does the availability of this different kind of

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Speaker 1: time in the day change a culture or in the

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Speaker 1: author's words, did firelight quote simply give more time or

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Speaker 1: did it create a qualitatively different time and space? So

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Speaker 1: Weisner offers several potential observations and ideas in the introductory section.

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Speaker 1: One is the sort of different climate or weather conditions

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Speaker 1: during the night time, which is during which activities can

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Speaker 1: be extended by firelight kind of leads to some different

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Speaker 1: social dynamics. For example, during hot seasons, air cools after sunset,

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Speaker 1: but if you can have firelight, you can still see

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Speaker 1: each other after it gets dark, and people can release

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Speaker 1: pent up energy, you know, maybe dancing or interacting socially

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Speaker 1: in various ways. Meanwhile, during cold seasons, of course, the

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Speaker 1: fire is useful for warmth, and people will tend to

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Speaker 1: huddle near the fire for warmth. It kind of has

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Speaker 1: this gathering effect like we talked about with fires even

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Speaker 1: inside the home. She also says that fireside gatherings are sometimes,

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Speaker 1: though not always, characterized by social mixing, so mixing of

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Speaker 1: the sexes, mixing of people of different age groups, who

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Speaker 1: might spin much of the economically productive part of the

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Speaker 1: day segregated. And then another thing she said, I thought

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Speaker 1: this was very interesting quote the moon and starlit skies

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Speaker 1: awaken imagine of the supernatural as well as a sense

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Speaker 1: of vulnerability too. Malevolent spirits, predators, and antagonists countered by

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Speaker 1: security in numbers. So the argument here is that nighttime

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Speaker 1: is a time of the imagination for possibilities, both good

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Speaker 1: and bad. It kind of expands that the possibilities that

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Speaker 1: you envision. You might think about the gods or of

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Speaker 1: powers beyond the normal, but you can also think about

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Speaker 1: dangers lying beyond the firelight in the dark. So the

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Speaker 1: light that keeps you up at night keeps you aware

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Speaker 1: and active during this imagination rich time of the day.

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Speaker 1: Another thing she says, I thought was very interesting quote

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Speaker 1: body language is dimmed by firelight and awareness of self

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Speaker 1: and others is reduced. Facial expressions flickering with the flames

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Speaker 1: are either softened or, in the cases of fear and anguish, accentuated.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure I've ever considered this before, but

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Speaker 1: I think that that's absolutely right. Different light environments change

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Speaker 1: how we look and thus change what kinds of emotional

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Speaker 1: expression we are sensitive to, or that we're aware of

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Speaker 1: other people being sensitive to in us. And I think

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Speaker 1: this could be a reason that we associate like a

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Speaker 1: romantic evening with candle light as opposed to with like

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Speaker 1: really bright lights. I don't you know, there could be

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Speaker 1: multiple reasons for that, but I don't have proof of this,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's quite plausible that fire based light

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Speaker 1: decreases our ability to register body language and facial expressions

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Speaker 1: that would normally cause us social anxiety, both because of

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Speaker 1: our constant tracking of these signals in others and because

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Speaker 1: of our awareness and regulation of it in ourselves, our

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Speaker 1: awareness of being observed. In other words, firelight could be

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Speaker 1: a naturally socially disinhibiting environment.

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense, Yeah, it does, because there is

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Speaker 2: a huge difference between you know, of course, stark daylight

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Speaker 2: anywhere anything from stark daylight all the way towards dusk

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Speaker 2: and absolute darkness. We're talking about a world in between

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Speaker 2: where the illumination is not harsh but is atmospheric and

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Speaker 2: can certainly have this sort of emotional vibe to it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is interesting. It's almost like did sexy times exist?

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Speaker 2: Didn't romance exist before firelight? I mean it did, but

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Speaker 2: you know, in the way that we're thinking about it,

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Speaker 2: you know, candle at dinner and so forth, or any

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Speaker 2: romantic scene you've ever seen in a motion picture, you

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Speaker 2: know it probably takes place in some sort of a

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Speaker 2: lighting environment like this.

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Speaker 1: Well. Yeah, And obviously the romantic example is just one

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Speaker 1: type of scenario where we want to be socially disinhibited,

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Speaker 1: where we want like our social anxieties and our fear

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Speaker 1: of being perceived to be reduced. I think that's all

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Speaker 1: of the case. More in just general social interactions where

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Speaker 1: we want to be like, you know, bonding with people

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Speaker 1: and trying to build up good relationships and so forth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, on the other hand, here the author says

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Speaker 1: that overt expressions of fear and anguish could in some

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Speaker 1: cases be accentuated by firelight, and you can imagine that

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Speaker 1: being powerful as well for sort of capturing the capturing

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Speaker 1: of attention with storytelling a ritual.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't help but think about the fact that

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Speaker 2: a central fire, be it in a fireplace or a campfire,

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Speaker 2: or even just a lantern that people are gathered around.

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Speaker 2: It becomes the focal point. It becomes the thing you

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Speaker 2: look at. And on one hand, yeah, you're not looking

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Speaker 2: necessarily looking directly in people's faces while you're talking to them.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of getting into that whole zone where like

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Speaker 2: sometimes you know, a parent and their child can have

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Speaker 2: a more intense conversation whilst the parent is driving a car,

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Speaker 2: you know, because it's like eyes forward, we can kind

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Speaker 2: of have this slightly disconnected but deep personal conversation. And

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Speaker 2: then likewise, if everybody staring at the fire, it's kind

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Speaker 2: of like, yeah, attention is on the flames, but we

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Speaker 2: can still have this close conversation but without looking each

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Speaker 2: other dead in the eyes. And then the flames can

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Speaker 2: also kind of become the almost kind of like the

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Speaker 2: primordial television set for the telling of tales and the

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Speaker 2: invocation of wild concepts and imagined realities.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really good observation. I didn't think

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Speaker 1: about the comparison to the car or to the TV,

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Speaker 1: but yes, totally. Now there's another interesting general observation Weisner

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Speaker 1: makes in the introductory section, which is quote, whereas time

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Speaker 1: structures interactions by day because of economic exigencies, by night,

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Speaker 1: social interactions structure time and often continue until relationships are right.

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Speaker 1: And she summarizes this by saying that people in hunter

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Speaker 1: gatherer societies, they tend to focus interactions on efficiency during

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Speaker 1: the daytime and effectiveness during the night time. So during

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Speaker 1: the day we need to get this problem resolved quickly

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Speaker 1: so we can move on with what we're doing, whereas

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Speaker 1: at night we can address this until it's fixed. And

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Speaker 1: so the author here says that her goal is to

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Speaker 1: investigate how firelit time is used to achieve three things,

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Speaker 1: and this is, in the author's words, the first thing

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Speaker 1: is a more accurate understanding of the thoughts and emotions

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Speaker 1: of others, particularly those not immediately present. Second, bonding within

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Speaker 1: and between groups, and third the generation, regulation and transmission

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Speaker 1: of cultural institutions. So, in order to investigate the role

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Speaker 1: of firelight and creating productive space for these goals, the

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Speaker 1: author analyzed and quantified the differences in daytime and then

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Speaker 1: firelit nighttime conversation topics among the Jutwan people of southern Africa.

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Speaker 1: And so she is working mainly from a sample of

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Speaker 1: one hundred and seventy four memorialized conversations that took place

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Speaker 1: in among a group of people in northern Botswana in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four, and then this was supplemented with subsequent

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Speaker 1: visits and re recordings of some stories. And then also

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Speaker 1: the analysis of this direct sampling of Jutuancie conversations and

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Speaker 1: activities was supplemented by a survey of written translated texts

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Speaker 1: on day night differences in conversation topics in other cultures. Now,

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Speaker 1: the author is clear about the limitations of this kind

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Speaker 1: of research, because it's very important to remember when you're

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Speaker 1: looking at anthropology studies of this kind. Studying the habits

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Speaker 1: of one culture does not necessarily tell you how another

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Speaker 1: culture in some overlapping circumstances will function. So if you

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Speaker 1: see a behavior among one group of hunter gatherers today,

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Speaker 1: that does not give you certainty that all prehistoric hunter

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Speaker 1: gatherers did the same thing. In fact, you don't even

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Speaker 1: know that other hunter gatherer groups in the modern world

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Speaker 1: do the same thing. In fact, it doesn't even show

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Speaker 1: you that the exact same group of people would keep

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Speaker 1: doing the same thing at a different time. And in

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Speaker 1: the case of the Jutwan people, the paper notes that

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Speaker 1: for many of them, the structure of life has changed

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Speaker 1: significantly since the mid nineteen seventies, around the time when

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Speaker 1: these conversations were initially recorded, with many people settling more

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Speaker 1: into more permanent villages with a more mixed economy, so

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Speaker 1: some traditional subsistence foraging, but also wage labor and selling

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Speaker 1: crafts and things like that. But still, this kind of

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Speaker 1: cultural observation does tell you something. It doesn't show you

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Speaker 1: how it always is, but it does show you with

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Speaker 1: certainty one way it can be. So it's important to

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Speaker 1: understand the strengths and the weaknesses of this kind of

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Speaker 1: anthropological research. Studying one culture doesn't prove universal patterns, but

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Speaker 1: it does establish a precedent something you can see. Okay,

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Speaker 1: here's one way it could work. So, coming back to

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Speaker 1: the question the author was trying to figure out here,

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Speaker 1: does firelight simply give us more time or does it

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Speaker 1: create a different type of time and space? And in

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Speaker 1: the specific case of the people observed here, the author

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Speaker 1: found some strong differences in what people talked about during

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Speaker 1: the day versus after sunset when the illumination was based

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Speaker 1: on fire. So the author said that daytime conversations strongly

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Speaker 1: centered around economic matters, meaning things having to do with work,

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Speaker 1: so the acquisition of food through hunting and foraging, plans

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Speaker 1: for the acquisition of food, resource availability, conversations about technology.

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Speaker 1: All of this economic talk about work represented about thirty

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Speaker 1: one percent of the daytime talk that was sampled. Another

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Speaker 1: thirty four percent of the daytime conversation sampled was what

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Speaker 1: the author calls quote verbal criticism, complain and conflict, and

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Speaker 1: this basically covers all talk that is designed to regulate

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Speaker 1: social relationships and hash out personal disputes. And a lot

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Speaker 1: of this seems to be based on maintaining egalitarian social

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Speaker 1: relationships and preventing other people from acquiring social dominance or

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Speaker 1: sort of unfair social advantage.

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Speaker 2: So bickering is that I think of this thirty four percent.

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Speaker 1: Well, I wouldn't want to put like a normative negative

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Speaker 1: spin on it, but in a way, yes, this is

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Speaker 1: this is social regulatory talk where people are addressing social

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Speaker 1: problems that they perceive or some kind of conflict between

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Speaker 1: people and addressing those addressing those issues and trying to

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Speaker 1: resolve them, which in this broad understanding, this is also

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Speaker 1: a huge part of conversation, I would say, among basically

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Speaker 1: any people anywhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Now during the daytime, another sixteen percent was devoted to jokes,

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Speaker 1: joking around. Another nine percent was devoted to land rights,

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Speaker 1: discussion of the use of land, four percent was about

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Speaker 1: interactions with other ethnic groups, and six percent was made

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Speaker 1: up of storytelling. But the author describes how as the

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Speaker 1: day went on and families would gather for the evening

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Speaker 1: meal around the fire, the mood would tend to mellow out,

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Speaker 1: losing a lot of the harshness of daytime talk. After

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Speaker 1: the sun went down and in the darkness around the fire,

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Speaker 1: major activities shifted and they were music, dance, and conversation.

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Speaker 1: So what was that conversation about. Well, during the firelit time,

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Speaker 1: she found, at least among these people in this sample,

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Speaker 1: it was radically different. Quote. Night activities steer away from

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Speaker 1: tensions of the day to singing, dancing, religious ceremonies, and

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Speaker 1: enthralling stories, often about known people, And the difference is huge.

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Speaker 1: I've got a pie chart for you to look at

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Speaker 1: rob and I remember during the daytime, like thirty one

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Speaker 1: percent of the talk was about economic issues, things related

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Speaker 1: to work, thirty four percent was the resolving of these

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Speaker 1: social disputes, only six percent was stories. During the night

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Speaker 1: eighty one percent of conversation with stories, the radical shift,

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Speaker 1: we're shifting almost overwhelmingly to story mode.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is considerable, especially seeing it on the pigraph here.

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Speaker 2: Eighty one percent. It just consumes everything. I mean, you

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Speaker 2: got some some small percentage still allotted to you know,

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Speaker 2: shop talk and bickering, but in some of these other areas.

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Speaker 2: And then four percent for myth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I think the myth there connects to

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Speaker 1: the idea of storytelling as well, because one of the

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Speaker 1: broad observations that the author makes here is that is

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Speaker 1: of the idea of the night as a time of bigger,

401
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 1: broader thinking. And she gives an example where like, Okay,

402
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: during the daytime, you might have people devoting a significant

403
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Speaker 1: amount of conversation to a personal dispute about marriage. They're

404
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: discussing a marital dispute, whereas during the night instead you

405
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: would have interesting and amusing stories about marriages of people

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Speaker 1: in the past. The marriage disputes of sort of characters

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Speaker 1: that are known or people who lived in generations ago.

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Speaker 1: Or during the day you might have a sort of

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Speaker 1: work related conversation about a certain kind of you know,

410
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: hunting pursuit, or about a kind of gift exchange scenario

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Speaker 1: that's a part of the culture. And then during the

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Speaker 1: night instead, you would have conversations about stories about people

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Speaker 1: who engaged in those activities in the past, or in

414
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Speaker 1: the distant past, or in the recent past. So in

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Speaker 1: the daytime you talk about the issues and problems that

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Speaker 1: you're currently facing. At night time, you hear stories of

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Speaker 1: others who faced similar issues, and those issues are put

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Speaker 1: in the context of some kind of big picture. The

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Speaker 1: author emphasizes the use of nighttime talk and conversation as

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Speaker 1: a way of creat generating, and regulating ideas about the

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Speaker 1: bigger picture, beyond the little things you do here and

422
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Speaker 1: there to get through the day. The big picture of

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00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: sort of what are people are and what life is

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Speaker 1: and so forth that arises from these nighttime conversations that

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Speaker 1: are largely storytelling and conversation about storytelling. So, the author writes, quote,

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Speaker 1: night talk plays an important role in evoking higher orders

427
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: of theory of mind via the imagination, conveying attributes of

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Speaker 1: people in broad networks or virtual communities, and transmitting the

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Speaker 1: big picture of cultural institutions that generate regularity of behavior, cooperation,

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Speaker 1: and trust at the regional level. And so I thought

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Speaker 1: this was so interesting because again I want to stress

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Speaker 1: the caveats I'm in earlier. You can't know what all

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Speaker 1: people long ago did based on what one group of

434
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: people have more recently done. But this kind of observation

435
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: does show one way people respond to a certain type

436
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: of environment, the regime of technology and environmental surroundings of

437
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 1: meeting by firelight after the sun sets. And I think

438
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: it's interesting. It's it's interesting as a sort of precedent

439
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: that possibly the introduction of fire may have opened up

440
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: new dimensions of creativity and abstract thinking about about ourselves

441
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: and about what our societies are, this idea of sort

442
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: of big picture ideas about what life is, specifically by

443
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: creating this kind of imaginative storytelling space of economically unproductive time.

444
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: You know, it's like time where you can't you can't

445
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: really effectively get work done, but you're you're here, and

446
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 1: so you can think in terms of stories to think

447
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: about the past and explore models of the world out loud.

448
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: I don't, I don't. I know you've probably you've probably

449
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 2: thought along similar lines. But I'm instantly reminded of the

450
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 2: lyrics to Rocky Erickson's if you have ghosts in the Night,

451
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 2: I Am real?

452
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I did not think about that, but yeah,

453
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: because I.

454
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 2: Mean, depending on how you slice it here, I mean,

455
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 2: you're talking about a time when one can become more real,

456
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: like your existence becomes you know, this is the kind

457
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: of thing that Marsati Iliati I think would have gotten into, perhaps,

458
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 2: you know, the idea that when you start viewing yourself

459
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: within the context of like the mythic realms and stories

460
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: that have been told, like the self can become more actualized,

461
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 2: can become more real. You know.

462
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, in many ways. In one way, by gaining

463
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: perspectives on our individual problems, by placing them within this

464
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: like larger context of stories about the past, or stories

465
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: about mythical figures and characters and and so forth who

466
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: may have faced similar issues and overcome them in some

467
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: way or in other it allows you to just kind

468
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: of like to see another side of many things. And

469
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: to the extent that this might be a more general

470
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: pattern of how humans respond to, you know, light, where

471
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: nighttime is illuminated primarily with fire. It makes me wonder, like,

472
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: do we still kind of activate some of these ways

473
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: of thinking when we when we seek out fire in

474
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: any context, when we seek out fire as a light source,

475
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: even optionally or and also makes me think about and

476
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: the author actually does get into this end of the paper,

477
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: the contrast with electrical lighting. So like, say you move

478
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: out of this kind of environment and into an environment

479
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: where in the nighttime you can have super bright lights on,

480
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, might as well get some more

481
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: work done.

482
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's one of the gifts of the electronic

483
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: age is oh, well, there's enough illumination to work all

484
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: the time. It's true enough, you know, work on passion

485
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: projects certainly, but also work on chores, work on your

486
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 2: day work, and so forth, your homework.

487
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I wonder of having all this productive time

488
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: and electric lights is maybe robbing people of some time

489
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: that they might otherwise really benefit from getting kind of

490
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: a storytelling and imaginative, big picture perspective on life.

491
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and likewise, I can't help but think

492
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 2: about that other fire, the holy fire of television, you know,

493
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: as because you know, we think about oh, you know

494
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 2: you sort of Netflix and chill. I guess this is

495
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: the thing, right or is that that means watching television

496
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 2: or is that something else?

497
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: It means something else?

498
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 2: Okay, well, okay, one could interpret it as meaning just

499
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: watching television. Though, So let's just like the idea of Okay,

500
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: I need to chill in the evening. I just want

501
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: to watch some shows. I want to watch a movie,

502
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: or I want to settle down with a good book,

503
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: or I want to play a nice narrative video game

504
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: or whatever. You know. It's like, based on what we've

505
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: been discussing here, like this is the time to do it.

506
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: This is the time to at once lose yourself in

507
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,479
Speaker 2: a narrative but also kind of expand yourself within that

508
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: narrative and allow yourself to sort of like leech onto

509
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: these mythic ideas of self and struggle and so forth.

510
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 2: But in a weird way, that too is kind of

511
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: like put it odds with the electrically illuminated world where

512
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 2: we're like, well, I could be working instead of watching Netflix,

513
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: instead of reading you know, a book that is you know,

514
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: maybe has nothing to do with with your day job

515
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 2: or isn't like you know, it's just kind of a

516
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 2: guilty pleasure read or what have you, or certainly in

517
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 2: whatever video game you're into, you know, you could be working, yes,

518
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 2: but maybe all of this is still vitally important to

519
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: who you are and your ability to continue on through

520
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 2: the day.

521
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, anyway, that's what I had on the qualitative

522
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: difference of firelight. And I don't know, I'm still having

523
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: lots of ideas about this, but I think I got

524
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: to stop there for now. But I know you had

525
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: some more on the the toad buried beneath the hearthstone.

526
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you know, now that we've discussed the illumination

527
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 2: by firelight and all the ways that it changes the

528
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: human experience, it's time to really get down and discuss

529
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: human and animal sacrifice. That's the way we like to

530
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: land things with our holiday episodes. So yeah, I want

531
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: you to think back first first of what we talked

532
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: about in the initial episode regarding artifacts and symbols that

533
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: have been secreted away in homes and voids, in the

534
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: walls and under the hearthstone and behind the fireplace, you know,

535
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: as a form of apotropaic magic, protective magic, wards against witchcraft, demons,

536
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: fairies and ghosts. Secondly, I'll bring you back to that

537
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: cold open that exert from the poem by Robert Graves,

538
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: and it's invocation of not only a lightning touch tree,

539
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 2: but an animal buried beneath the hearthstone. In the case

540
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: of the poem, it was a frog. So we've discussed

541
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 2: animal and human sacrifice before on the show, and today

542
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: is going to be more of the same. Why Christmas,

543
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 2: you might ask, well, I would say, well, what better

544
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: time than Christmas? To quote the late great Terry Pratchett

545
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: in his holiday book The Hogfather. There was a great

546
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 2: TV adaptation of this as well. Quote the very oldest

547
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: stories are sooner or later about blood. So you find,

548
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: of course examples of blood sacrifice in every human culture.

549
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: We've discussed this plenty of times before, and one pervasive

550
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: form of alleged right of sacrifice concerns the sanctification of

551
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: ground upon which something is built, or is being built,

552
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 2: or is about to be finished in its construction, and

553
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: in some cases it has been alleged that these were

554
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 2: carried out while the victims yet breathed, though obviously there's

555
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: plenty of room for such builders' rights and construction sacrifices

556
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 2: to be distorted through the telling of history. So you know,

557
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: you can very well imagine a scenario where an animal

558
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 2: is sacked device but not entombed alive, but then it

559
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: becomes entombed alive in the telling of the tale. We

560
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: can't really get into all the nuances right now, but

561
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 2: suffice to say burying something in or under the foundation

562
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 2: of a building has long been a symbolic, superstitious, or

563
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 2: outright religious rite, and it's one that still echoes through

564
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: modern practice. Is you know, such as laying relics and

565
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 2: you know in such a place or or even a

566
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 2: time capsule. The bearing of a time capsule is ultimately

567
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 2: kind of connected to these ideas as well. And we've

568
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,959
Speaker 2: actually touched on in recent episodes of Stuff to Blow

569
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 2: your Mind on some on some examples of animals or

570
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 2: humans allegedly entombed within or alongside constructions. This came up

571
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: in our Haunted Railways episodes, and it also came up

572
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 2: in our discussion of the horned lizard. Mm oh yeah,

573
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: I forget what building in Texas the horned lizard in

574
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: question was was walled up in, but then was was

575
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 2: on earth than said to be still alive.

576
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: I remember there was something funny about it, so I

577
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: had to look it up. It was the name they

578
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: called him, Old Rip.

579
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Old Rip.

580
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: I guess named after Rip van Winkle. But yes, I

581
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: think the story was that, you know, you know that

582
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: this thing was really alive after decades of being buried

583
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 1: without food or water. Because there's like a judge in Eastland,

584
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 1: Texas who said.

585
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, as I'll go back and listen to

586
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: that episode if you want to hear more on it.

587
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 2: But for our purposes here today, we're trying to stay

588
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 2: more hearth and hearth adjacent. So I want to refer

589
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 2: back to Brian Hoggard's excellent twenty nineteen book Magical House

590
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 2: Protection The Archaeology of counter Witchcraft. We talked about witch

591
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 2: bottles and shoes, but two other items are also frequently

592
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 2: found in the voids of homes, according to Hoggard, and

593
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 2: those are dried cats and horse skulls. So let's talk

594
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 2: about dried cats first, and I will I will add

595
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: that my own cat has decided to set in my

596
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 2: lap just for this part, as that it was going

597
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 2: to be feline related so along those lines, no shame

598
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 2: if you want to skip this part. I'm a cat person,

599
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 2: and I don't love the idea of anyone hurting a cat. Obviously,

600
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 2: is okay if they hurt us, that's the deal we

601
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: made with them. But yeah, I am going to discuss

602
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: dead cats in walls and floors and alleged cases of

603
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 2: animal sacrifice with cats. I'm not going to get into

604
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 2: gory details, but you know, fair enough, Okay, I'm strapped

605
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: in Okay. So yeah, this was, at least to some

606
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 2: extent a thing. As Haggard discusses, there is a case

607
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 2: to be made that practices involving shoes, which are discussed

608
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 2: in the last example, are simply replacements for older rights

609
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 2: involving the sacrifice of animals. And you know, there are

610
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 2: examples of this in other cultures as well, where one,

611
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 2: you know, may move away from one form of sacrifice,

612
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 2: but then you end up with proxies and replacements and

613
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 2: so forth. But yeah, the reality is dried up. Cat

614
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 2: carcasses are frequently found in old homes in Europe, parts

615
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 2: of North America, and even in Australia, so you know,

616
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,439
Speaker 2: basically coming out of European you know, very much deeped

617
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: in European traditions, but then flowing over into some colonial

618
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 2: areas as well. They're found in roof spaces, under floors,

619
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 2: between walls, and sometimes in voids that seem quite inaccessible.

620
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 2: Sometimes the cat has actually been posed we're talking with

621
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 2: like wire work, so that it looks like they are

622
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 2: actively hunting. And sometimes there is a rodent or two

623
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 2: or three added as well, perhaps in the cat's clutches

624
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 2: or about to be killed by the cat, a haunting tableau,

625
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 2: again hidden away in the wall or under the floor.

626
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: Now, I would imagine in some of these cases it

627
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: might be disputable whether a dried up cat hidden under

628
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: a floor was I mean, in some cases it might

629
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: be clear, like if there's no way it could have

630
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: gotten in it's a closed off space, but I guess

631
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: in some cases there would be dispute about whether a

632
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: cat actually just got duck and died there, or whether

633
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 1: it is a dried cat that was intentionally deposited.

634
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 2: That's correct, Yeah, the idea of accidental enclosure, because if

635
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 2: you know cats, you know that they are little explorers.

636
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: They'll go places they're not supposed to go, and it's

637
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 2: not impossible that they could get stuck, and that's something

638
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: Haggard discusses here. So a lot of people hold that

639
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: many of these bodies, these cat carcasses, these dried cats,

640
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: are due to cats becoming trapped, perhaps during construction or

641
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 2: otherwise crawling into such spaces and dying from some pre

642
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 2: existing injury or illness. You know, cats loves often will

643
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: crave that kind of seclusion for their final moments. Haggard

644
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 2: does he entertains this idea, but he suggests that there

645
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,479
Speaker 2: are probably fewer cases of accidental trappings. He argues that, Okay,

646
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: a cat crawling into a wall or a floor of

647
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: your house and then dying and decaying, that's obviously going

648
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 2: to create an odor. It's going to be hard to ignore.

649
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, he argues that it's it's

650
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: you know, it's often difficult or impossible to tell if

651
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 2: many of these animals wound up due to happenstance or

652
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: intentional human activity. It's certainly on the table. Some of

653
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 2: these dried cats inevitably got there on their own. It

654
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 2: basically comes into comes down to a discussion of what

655
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 2: are the most likely situations for some of these cats,

656
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 2: Like why are they there, and Hoggard sites the nineteen

657
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 2: fifty one paper by Margaret M. Howard published in the

658
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 2: journal Man. I had to look at it look it

659
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: up to get more of the details about it, but

660
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 2: it's titled dry Cats. And in this Howard lays out

661
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 2: three different theories as to why cats pop up in

662
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 2: these situations. And so these are the three. I'm going

663
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 2: to go and give you number three. Number three that

664
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 2: she entertains is accidental enclosure, which we just talked about.

665
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 2: She acknowledges that accidentalin enclosure is always a possible explanation

666
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 2: for cases that don't strongly suggest either of the aforementioned theories.

667
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 2: The aforementioned theories I'm about to explain, So sorry getting

668
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,919
Speaker 2: into a little backwards, but I mean, obviously the case

669
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 2: is if the cat has been wired up to look

670
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 2: like it's hunting rats, you know all, but taxidermied within

671
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 2: a void in the wall, that cat had some help.

672
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 2: That is not accidental enclosure.

673
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: Right.

674
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 2: So a cat that is put there in the wall,

675
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 2: under the floor, where have you, how does it get there? Well,

676
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 2: the first theory is indeed a foundation sacrifice, and Howard

677
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 2: highlights the use of foundation sacrifices in global cultural practices

678
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 2: and points to human sacrifice as the obvious forerunner, with

679
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 2: examples from European history and lore such as Irish abbot

680
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 2: Saint Colomba is calling for a human to venture into

681
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,720
Speaker 2: the foundations of the church at Iona to offer themselves

682
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 2: as a sacrifice, as just one example of a right

683
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: that originated in practices to appease earth spirits or deities

684
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 2: and the construction of a building, and then gets passed

685
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: down ultimately in non human sacrificial echoes of the original practices.

686
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 2: She also points to roof tree sacrifices to forest gods

687
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 2: that were also made in olden days, with the blood

688
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,479
Speaker 2: flowing down the sides of the roof, and she also

689
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 2: highlights just the general bad time that cats had through

690
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 2: the Middle Ages and into the Renaissance. They were often

691
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: seen as ill omens, as agents of the devil, which

692
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 2: is familiars, and all of this despite their positive reputation

693
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: as Mouser's and she suspects, but she suspects that broadly

694
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: speaking cases of foundation sacrifice, these are actually occurring later

695
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 2: in the record than the next example. The next theory

696
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 2: that I'm going to discuss and then ultimately foundation sacrifices

697
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 2: are perhaps less probable an explanation compared to this one.

698
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 2: And this is the idea that they were vermin scares.

699
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: So again, think to that idea of a lifelike positioning

700
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 2: of a mummified cat scaring away rodents, perhaps with two

701
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 2: or three rodents in its clutches. The idea here is

702
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 2: that it kind of functions like a scarecrow. It's intended

703
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 2: to scare rodents away from the insides of your walls

704
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,439
Speaker 2: and the you know, the insides of your house, from

705
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 2: the crawl space and what have you. Like, Let's actually

706
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: stuff a cat, put it in there, have some rodents there,

707
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 2: because it's going to be more effective if the dead

708
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 2: cat is in this grizzly tableau of dispatching rodents.

709
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is the if I only had a

710
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,399
Speaker 1: brain version of the cat.

711
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, essentially, And of course this idea of vermin scares,

712
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: I think it probably goes without saying, but this is

713
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 2: not a non supernatural, non superstitious idea, Like obviously there's

714
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 2: a certain amount of superstition to this as well. There's

715
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 2: like a there's a power to this tableau that clearly

716
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 2: goes beyond the idea of well, when a rat looks

717
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 2: at this, they're going to leave the house. They're not

718
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 2: going to hang around here, because look at this horror show,

719
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 2: you know, it's it clearly goes beyond that as well.

720
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 2: So that is, that is the theory that Howard seemed

721
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 2: to favor. But I think you tend to encounter a

722
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 2: certain amount of drift on which of these three primary

723
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 2: explanations are going to be employed. And obviously there are

724
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 2: going to be cases where it's very clear that the

725
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 2: cat was put in there for some sort of a

726
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 2: ritual and or vermin scare purpose. By the way, I

727
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: mentioned Terry Pratchett earlier, and I had actually already put

728
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 2: the Terry Pratchett quote in the notes before I've found

729
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: Hoggard referencing Terry Pratchett in this section of the book.

730
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: He brings up this idea suggested by Terry Pratchett that sacrifices,

731
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 2: those foundation sacrifices would have been made not only to deities,

732
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 2: but to the buildings themselves. The idea that you know,

733
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: later on, you know, various tragedies can befall a person

734
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 2: in a building, and in a sense, it's like that's

735
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 2: the house's doing, that's the building's doing, and so you

736
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 2: want to appease not necessarily gods, but the house itself,

737
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 2: which is an interesting concept.

738
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to go ahead and pre pay my tax here.

739
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, coming back to hearthstones specifically, Hoggard does cite

740
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 2: an example from England's Blackdon Hall. You can look up

741
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 2: Blackden Hall. There's a Wikipedia page on it and you

742
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 2: can see a picture of it. This was a building

743
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 2: built in the sixteenth century. But he points out that

744
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 2: beneath the hearthstone, during some construction they found a quote

745
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 2: constructed chamber into which the live cat was placed and

746
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 2: it contained a dried cat. Ye. Now, I'm not entirely

747
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 2: certain if indeed this would have been a live cat

748
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 2: that was placed there, but in any rate we end

749
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: up with a dead dried cat. So fill in the

750
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 2: blanks for yourself. Now, since we mentioned thunder and toads

751
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: in the cold open, I also want to point out

752
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 2: that Hoggard lists thunderstones as being an item that is

753
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 2: sometimes hidden away in homes. These are stones, often actually

754
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 2: arrowheads of thought to have been created by lightning strikes,

755
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: and thus they would protect it was thought they would

756
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 2: protect a building as lightning never strikes twice.

757
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, we mentioned thunderstones a little bit in the series

758
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: we did a couple weeks ago. Well it was when

759
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: we were talking about lightning strikes of trees that would

760
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: be enclosed as sacred trees. But yeah, the idea of thunderstones.

761
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 1: Often these were, as you said, arrowheads or like hand axes.

762
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: They were tools made by Stone Age peoples that were

763
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: later found and then like, yeah, this must be the

764
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 1: gods doing or lightning did that.

765
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: And also reminds me of our episodes on elf shot

766
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 2: as well, my memory serves sometimes arrowheads were interpreted as

767
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 2: being like clear evidence of elf shot.

768
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: Yep, stone age arrowheads found and then people were like,

769
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 1: it must be the elves.

770
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now as for toads, yes, toads and frogs also

771
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 2: pop up in Hoggard's book. Sometimes they are inside of

772
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 2: witch bottles, or at least pieces of them are in

773
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 2: witch bottles, but also just in general so that they

774
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:16,240
Speaker 2: were associated with magic and sometimes secreted away in parts

775
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 2: of a house as a ward against illness. There's an

776
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,720
Speaker 2: example of like pinned frogs, I think behind a wall.

777
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 2: And there's also a story he shares about how it

778
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,359
Speaker 2: was said that they're like a witch might keep live

779
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 2: toads under the floorboard and they'd be like a hole

780
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 2: for easy access.

781
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: So I wonder if Graves actually had this practice in

782
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 1: mind when talking about the toad underneath imrored underneath the hearthstone,

783
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: or is that just a coincidence.

784
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 2: I don't know, it seems I mean, Graves seems like

785
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: the kind of chap who would have been well read

786
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 2: on these matters.

787
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 1: He was very interested in like Celtic paganism, Yeah, and

788
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: wrote stuff about it that, from what I understand, is

789
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 1: comple depletely wrong and not useful at all in terms

790
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: of informational value, but is a pretty great read nonetheless.

791
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, So yeah, I imagine he was very much all

792
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 2: this was on his RADI all right, one final idea

793
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 2: concerning bits of animals buried under the hearthstone, and that

794
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 2: is the idea of horse skulls buried under the hearthstone.

795
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: When this is something that Haggard also talks about, and

796
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 2: this is another thing that I chatted with him about

797
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,439
Speaker 2: in a past interview episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

798
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 2: He goes into more detail, but basically, horse skulls have

799
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 2: been found in the floors of homes throughout Europe, the

800
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 2: British Isles, and the United States, and he specifically cites

801
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 2: cases where they are found under the hearthstone itself. According

802
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: to Hoggard, there are three primary theories regarding such horse

803
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 2: skulls and their placement. One is that they are the

804
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 2: remains of a foundation sacrifice, as we've been discussing, appease

805
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 2: the deities, make the ground holy, or appease the house itself.

806
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 2: Another is that it's simply they're simply there as a

807
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 2: token of luck or you know, perhaps getting into some

808
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 2: of these areas of apetrobeic magic. You know, it's a spell,

809
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 2: it's protecting us, and in this case especially, you get

810
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 2: into sort of things we've talked about concerning the horse

811
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 2: before on the show, that the horse is like this

812
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 2: very close animal to human existence, but it is often

813
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 2: the case you take all the meat off of it,

814
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 2: the horse skull looks really weird and seems to be grinning,

815
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 2: a demonic grin, so you can imagine that serving as

816
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 2: like a sort of Gorgonian head to ward away evil.

817
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 2: But another theory, a very popular theory, is that these

818
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 2: skulls served partially or primarily as an acoustic enhancer. What so,

819
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 2: the idea here is that horse skulls were placed in

820
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,800
Speaker 2: the floor in order to enhance the acoustics of dancing,

821
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 2: like the ants hall or threshing floors, both activities with

822
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 2: positive and protective supernatural associations, and in this the practice

823
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 2: is reminiscent of the ceiling of acoustic vases in the

824
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 2: walls of medieval churches. He writes, which these were apparently

825
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 2: based on some of the writings of Vitruvius on architecture,

826
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 2: and it was thought to enhance choral music. So have

827
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: these like sealed vases inside the walls of a church?

828
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: Bizarre? I've never heard of this.

829
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, But Haggard ultimately argues that he thinks that the

830
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 2: horse goals were primarily used to ward off evil, and

831
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 2: that a particular Norfolk account suggests a form of foundation sacrifice.

832
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 2: And he also argues that that really, when you start

833
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 2: looking around at the records about the use of horse

834
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 2: skulls and the foundations and under the hearthstone and so forth,

835
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 2: if it were merely for acoustics, you would probably see

836
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 2: more written about it, because people be upfront to be like, yeah,

837
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 2: I'm dumping a bunch of horse heads under my floorboards.

838
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 2: It's about acoustics. Man, do you want the sound to

839
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 2: sound like trash in here? No?

840
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 1: Like church is fine with that.

841
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, like people would be upfront about it. But if

842
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 2: it was for a magical purpose, you know, then you're

843
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,720
Speaker 2: gonna be maybe more secretive about it because the church

844
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 2: isn't telling you to bury horse skulls under your floor

845
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 2: You're doing it because you have a plan B to

846
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 2: keep the evil away, and they might not approve of it,

847
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 2: but you know that it's absolutely necessary.

848
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: Well, I would never harm an animal for this purpose.

849
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: But assuming I can source some already some already available carcasses,

850
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: I've really got decisions to make if I ever build

851
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: my own hearthstone. So do I go horse? Do I

852
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 1: go cat? Do I go toad?

853
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 2: Well, you can get some horseheads, I mean there are

854
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 2: there are sources for that, right you can. You can

855
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 2: get them used. You don't have to make the head yourself.

856
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: Oh, I can get you a horse head by three

857
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: o'clock this afternoon. Well, I think we're out of time

858
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: for today's episode, but yeah, it's funny. We still had

859
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: some other stuff we wanted to talk about. I don't

860
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 1: know how exactly this will mesh with our schedule because

861
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: next week we got some days off for the holiday,

862
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 1: but we definitely had more fireplace stuff we wanted to

863
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: talk about, So I don't know, maybe we'll come back

864
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: to it yet.

865
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't even get to even get into my

866
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 2: whole thing about how thinking about evil spirits crawling out

867
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 2: of the fireplace or out of the hearth, and then

868
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 2: comparing the hearth to the television, of course, just brings

869
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 2: us right to the ring and the idea of this

870
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 2: evil wraith like entity crawling out of your televisions that like,

871
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 2: it makes perfect sense if you think of the television

872
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 2: as a hearth.

873
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: You know, well, actually that would be a good static

874
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: ambient TV. So you've got you know, logs burning, you

875
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 1: could have Andy Warhol's Empire, where're just watching the skyscraper

876
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: through the night, or you could just watch that well

877
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: see if anything happens.

878
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a seven hour video, but sometimes something happens,

879
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 2: but you don't know when it's going to happen, or

880
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: if you have the cut where it happens. Oh boy,

881
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 2: all right, we're gonna gohead close it out. There. Then

882
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 2: happy holidays if you celebrate. We'll be back with new

883
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: episodes after next week, and we have some fun vault

884
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 2: episodes and Weird House rewinds to keep you happy while

885
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 2: we're out.

886
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,399
Speaker 1: Oh but we still have a new Weird House coming

887
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: out tomorrow.

888
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, of course, and it's a holiday episode. Gosh

889
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 2: darn it. So yes, there's one end ever, all right.

890
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, just a reminder of Stuff to Blow Your

891
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 2: Mind primarily a science and culture podcast with core episodes

892
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 2: on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but on Fridays we set aside

893
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 2: most serious concerns to just talk about weird films on

894
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 2: Weird House Cinema.

895
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

896
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

897
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

898
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 1: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you

899
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 1: can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your Mind

900
00:52:54,440 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio.

901
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

902
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.