WEBVTT - The Mindhunter Himself & ATLM Update [bonus] 0:00:01.520 --> 0:00:05.760 You might recognize my voice. This is the Zodiac speaking. 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.080 I'm Scott Benjamin, the host of a new true crime 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:12.239 podcast from the creators of Atlanta Monster and Monster the 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:18.880 Zodiac Killer. It's called Master Presents Insomniac. If you're tired 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:21.560 of the same old true crime stories being told and 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.520 retold time and time again, We'll break that pattern. In 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:27.960 every episode, I tell the story of a lesser known killer, 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:31.360 a monster that will give you nightmares. But it doesn't 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:34.360 stop there. I'll also tell you how these killers really 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:39.279 have invaded my dreams. It's raw, it's real, and there 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:42.040 are plenty of episodes to binge with more on the way. 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:45.479 Stick around after this bonus episode of Atlanta Monster for 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:50.080 an exclusive clip from the next installment If Master Presents Insomniac. 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:59.320 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.160 those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:05.959 and do not necessarily represent those of I Heart Media, 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:17.559 Stuff Media, or its employees. So I have a friend 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:21.720 that works in the mayor's administration. He called me the 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.680 morning of the press conference and just gave me the 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:28.119 heads up that this was going down, that there would 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.839 be families there the Mayor herself, as well as police 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:34.520 chief and other people, and that there would be some 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:38.399 announcement made. When it was Donald Albright, president of Tenderfoot 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:41.800 TV and executive producer of Atlanta Monster, that was the 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.320 first time I heard about it, and I jumped up 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:45.800 and said, look, I need to be there. We need 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:50.080 to capture audio on this good afternoon. Then thank you 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:54.520 all for being here. In nineteen seventy nine, I was 0:01:55.280 --> 0:02:00.640 nine years old. I was the daughter of a single mother, 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:06.600 working two jobs and back in school in the evenings. 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:14.160 My story was the story of many children across this city. 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:19.120 In the backdrop of that story, it's something that has 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:23.280 stayed with me my entire life. And that was the 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:29.360 era of Atlanta's missing and murdered children. And for those 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:31.600 of us who grew up in that era, in so 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:36.920 many ways, it shaped our childhood. It robbed us of 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:42.520 our innocence, and it reminded us all that evil was 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:48.720 real and Atlanta. Another Barday was discovering today a police 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:53.079 times Force headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall, murdered, 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:55.720 one missing. We do not know the person or persons 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:57.680 that are responsible. Therefore, we do not have the morning 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.440 from Tenderfoot TV and House of Forts in Atlanta like 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.399 a lot of another reason victims in Atlanta Rogers apparently 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:08.400 was asphyxiated. Atlanta was unlikely to catch the killer unless 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:21.680 she keeps on killing. This is Atlanta monster. The mayor 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:26.839 came out and she made a really emotional and powerful announcement. 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.960 I stand here as the sixtie of Mayor of Atlanta 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:36.040 now the mother of four children, ages eight through sixteen. 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:42.240 Their ages are reflective of the children who were killed 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:48.040 during my childhood. A lot has changed in Atlanta since 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.520 nineteen seventy nine, and a lot has changed in our 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:57.360 world since nineteen one, when there was a conviction for 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:01.760 two of these murders, the conviction of and Williams. We 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:06.720 now know that DNA technology is much more advanced. But 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:11.600 also last week, I've watched a national story that mentioned 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:15.560 the arrest of a man charged with two rapes and 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:20.960 murders based upon inputting his DNA or their DNA into 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:26.080 a national database. I immediately reached out two Chief Shields 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:30.640 to ask her what if any updated testing had we 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:34.080 done as it relates to the missing and murdered children. 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:37.440 For the mayor to do this, I think is a 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:39.680 is a big statement. I think it's it's genuine and 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:41.920 comes from a place of someone who could have been 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:45.240 a victim, you know, who felt that fear as a 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.960 child uniform Mayor Cosine read as well as Mayor Bottoms. 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:51.200 There of the age range of the children who went 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:55.279 missing at that time, they aren't the older politicians that were, 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.200 you know, a little more focused on moving the city 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.880 forward and passed his tragedy. They were the kids that 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.800 suffered from this tragedy. So if anyone's going to take 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:05.800 a look into this, it would be them, and in 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.839 this case the current mayor. Chief Shields then took the 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:12.440 next step and spoke with our partners at the g 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:17.240 b I, who agree with Chief Shields that it would 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.919 certainly be in order for us to now look once 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:24.719 again at evidence that the City of Atlanta has in 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:28.240 its possession, evidence that the g v I has in 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:32.040 its possession, to once again take a fresh look at 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:36.640 these cases and to determine once and for all, if 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.960 there is additional evidence that may be tested that may 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:44.520 give some peace, to the extent that peace can be 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:48.560 had in a situation like this, to the victims families 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:51.320 to let them know that we have done all that 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.480 we can do to make sure that their memories are 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:57.839 not forgotten, and then the truest sense of the word 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.760 to let the world know that black lives do matter. 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:06.640 You know, I think we should be reopening and re 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.120 examining the cases that we feel are not attributed to 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.320 Wayne and that's someone else responsible for, and also re 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:14.760 examining the way this was handled. I think if this 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:19.159 was some independent investigation that was you know, fueled by 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.599 a third party, then it wouldn't feel as gratifying the 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:26.080 fact that the city is stepping up. You know, they're 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:29.359 skeletons in the closet of the City of Atlanta, and 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:35.880 this is one of them. I will turn the podium 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:43.159 over two, Chief Erica Shields. Thank you. Eric. In May 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:47.839 of n A p D, Detective Bob Buffington was working 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.479 the homicide of one of the victims, Eric middle brooks 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:57.960 age fourteen. Detective Buffington's spotted trace fiber evidence on middlebrook 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:03.240 shoe and collective or further examination. This type of evidence 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:07.000 collection had never occurred before. This was brand new for 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:11.200 the Atlanta Police Department, and while some of his colleagues 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:14.760 respected his attention to detail, there were many who made 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:20.120 a mockery of his discovery. So Bob took this evidence 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:24.120 to a micro analyst at the Georgia Bureau of Investigation 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:28.040 and fortunately that he met someone there, a young fellow 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.360 by the name of Larry Peterson, who took interest in it. 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.680 This piece of evidence became crucial in the trial against 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:39.920 Wayne Williams. So let's fast forward forty years to today 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:43.400 and conceptualize all of the advancements that have been made 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:47.000 in science since that first carpet five rother was found. 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:52.680 We have an obligation to take those advancements and see 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:57.640 if any further analysis can be conducted on the property 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:02.160 and evidence that was collected four years o. The families 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:07.800 deserved to find closure. The Atlanta Police Department has reached 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.400 out to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. What we've asked 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.760 is that they look at the evidence that was handed 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.360 over to them forty some years ago and they see 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:23.000 whether any of it qualifies for further analysis, and what 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:24.720 we are asking of them that they report back to 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:28.200 us what they have that could potentially be tested, and 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:33.199 they've agreed to do this. Separately, there is evidence from 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:37.160 the trial that the District Attorney's office has and he's 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.080 very graciously offered to go through it and see was 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.120 there anything that was presented a trial that potentially is 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:48.600 eligible for testing. And lastly, the Atlanta Police Department has 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:52.720 numerous boxes of evidence from the trial. Now much of 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:57.120 it is documents and transcripts, but we already have begun 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.280 the process of going through these boxes to see there's 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:04.040 anything that was never tested that would not be a value. 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.560 We don't know what we'll find, but what we do 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:12.079 know is we have an obligation. I have an obligation 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:17.520 to these families to ensure that every imaginable investigative lead 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:24.920 was followed. I think it was a step in the 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:27.640 right direction because we have to start the conversation again. 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:32.960 Hopefully what they find will cause the d A's Office 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:35.680 to reopen some of these cases. But as of now, 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:38.600 what they're doing is looking at the evidence that already 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:42.679 has been collected. They're going to utilize the latest technology 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.640 and see if there was new testing that they could 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:48.080 do on any of the evidence that still exists in 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.160 a p d S custody. We know, just by researching 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:54.679 this case what's out there in that evidence locker? Are 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:58.080 those evidence lockers, those boxes from forty years ago, some 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:00.439 of those boxes that we've already seen ourselves looked through. 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:05.360 When the series wrapped, there was obviously a lot of 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:09.120 open questions things still hanging out there. And the one 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:13.120 thing that kept bothering me was the mentioned of files 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:17.679 related to the KKKS involvement. This is Jason Hooke, executive 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.760 producer of Atlanta Monster on behalf of How Stuff Works. 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:24.200 I went to the FBI website, We looked at stacks 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:27.320 and stacks and documents, and went down to most of 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:31.120 the local government offices, the courthouses, and no one had 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:35.840 any record of these KKK files. I finally landed at 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.560 the ap D, the Atlanta Police Department, and filed an 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.120 open records request and almost immediately her back from one 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.040 of the officers who was on the front lines of 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.360 the press team, and she said, we have something called 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:53.280 the a p D Annex which holds thousands and thousands 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:57.640 of files and records. It might just be in there. 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:02.480 She said, I'm just here to tell you there's about 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:07.199 seventy thousand pages in this archive. We have no idea 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.079 what's actually here. You're going to have to go through 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.720 this yourself. Reviewing those documents. At the time that we 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.640 did this was you know, probably six months ago by now. 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:19.319 Had we not reviewed them then and then this press 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:21.280 conference happened, I don't think we'd have access to those. 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.840 It was, you know, seventy thousand documents just boxed upon 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.839 box of you know, a file on every single victim, 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:32.480 crime scene photos, slideshow presentations, sheets that were filled out 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:36.040 from every single phone tip that came in, who called in, 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.160 when they called in, where they called in, and like 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.280 a summary of the tip they gave. I'm Meredith Steadman, 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:46.280 I'm a creative producer at Tenderfoot TV. And down below 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.000 and in pages behind them it would say like how 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:51.760 the officer followed up on that tip. I was pretty 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.480 impressed by the amount of tips they actually followed up on. 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.480 We got a sense of how many man hours, like 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.480 I went into gatherting all this stuff. So if you're 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.640 thinking that this wasn't a thorough investigation, that they didn't 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:06.679 really care what was happening, that could be said at 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.720 the very very beginning, when there wasn't the attention given 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.200 to those victims, you know, because they were pouring black 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.280 and because those mothers didn't get the respect that they 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:19.319 deserved and those children didn't. But once the investigation started, 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:21.240 and once there was a task force, once they dedicated 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:25.480 man hours to this, they kept every single document. After 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:27.960 being in this podcast for so long and caring the 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:30.760 frustration from so many people, it did seem like a 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.280 lot of the officers were trying really hard to follow 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:35.400 up on as much as they could, and the volume 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:43.800 was big. These were actually original forty year old Manila 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:47.520 envelopes with every victim's name on them. We saw the 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.480 original crime scene quotas, we saw the picture of that 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.360 first red fiber on that tennis shoe. It was extremely 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:58.360 sad because it's all real. When you're sitting behind a 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:03.920 computer desk and you're investigating online, you're only finding what 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.920 people have access to, have scanned in and have uploaded. 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:10.840 So I saw some of those original pictures that I 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.080 had seen online, but there are thirty or fifty more 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.679 that never made it online. So you might see one 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:21.440 picture of a victim, but we've seen fifty and multiple 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:25.000 angles close ups on what the trained photographer, who you know, 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:27.400 is supposed to take pictures of what they see on 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:31.239 the scene as potentially relevant. The way their clothes were positioned, 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:33.480 you know, whether they had shoes on or not, or 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.640 how far away the body was from the road. It 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.040 puts you right there at the crime scene. You know, 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:43.280 it was hard to look at forty years later and 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:45.640 there's nothing you can do about it, but you you 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:49.160 feel the connection there of being being right there and 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:50.839 when it happens. So you just imagine like seeing it 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.040 as a police officer discovering it. We heard them talk 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:57.120 about finding those first two bodies and then seeing the 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.360 pictures of that. It's an image that you you don't 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:02.280 want to see, but you also don't want to forget, 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.800 because this is a real story that you can't look 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.840 at as just a podcast, as just an old cold 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.000 case or old case that's been solved. These are real 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:13.920 cases with real kids that never got to grow up, 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:19.440 and it's just it's just extremely sad. I think the 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:21.800 most interesting thing that I read while going through the 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:27.320 files is this account about knowing Wayne Williams but knowing 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:31.960 him under a different name. The police or whoever had 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.800 filed this report. They had spoken to someone and I 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.360 guess they'd shown him a photo of Wayne Williams. They said, 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:40.120 I know that guy, but I know him under a 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:42.880 different name. I don't know him as Wayne Williams, and 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.040 they said he lives at this apartment with this other man. 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:49.880 There was another account that said, I do know that man, 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:52.000 but I don't know him as Wayn Williams. I know 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.560 him under a different name. He has a roommate, which 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:59.880 is this guy. There was an apartment that someone who 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.600 least looked very identical to Wayn Williams was living in 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:07.520 or renting with another male, and at that apartment it 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:11.240 seemed like they had younger men over for I'm not 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.760 sure what, but that's how they knew that apartment, because 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.040 they had been invited there before and they knew way 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:19.360 Williams under a different name. A lot of people expressed, 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.160 how could he be doing something like this in his 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:26.240 home with his parents, that it doesn't seem feasible, And 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.680 I thought, oh wait a second, maybe Wayne Williams had 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.040 an altar life, like a life outside of his home. 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:37.000 It makes you really wonder who was his alleged roommate. 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:39.920 A lot of people thought, you know, this can't be 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:47.760 a one man job. Maybe it wasn't. It was stunning 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.440 to see the kind of leads. Most of them were short, 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.640 one page reports. But it also led into some interesting 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:58.240 areas of focus. I found Wayne's original driver's license, a 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:03.160 medical record from his mother, saw Homer's report card, not Wayne's, 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.640 Homer's his dad. They were going all out to find 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:10.280 everything that they could about this family. One of the 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.800 things that really stuck with me were these letters sent 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:18.440 by Wayne to Atlanta schools to teachers, and they were 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:21.760 recruiting the kids in these classrooms on behalf of the 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:26.240 teachers to try out for Wayne's talent shows. And it 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:31.760 happened over and over and over again. And when you 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:34.760 see something like that in a typed out form with 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.960 letter head and the signature Wayne Williams at the bottom, 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:42.960 it just did not feel right. It felt calculated that 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.520 something was up here. They were addressed to the schools, 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.720 they were addressed to vice principles, they were addressed to teachers. 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:54.560 He was recruiting, recruiting kids more than you would than 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.600 just kind of that average sign that you see on 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.800 a telephone pole somewhere. I thought at about that for 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:06.760 days and days. It really bothered me. We talked a 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.120 lot in the podcast about Jim and I and this 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.480 group that Wayne Way was putting together. You know, he 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:13.879 was a talent scout trying to make the next Jackson five, 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:17.000 and we are always thinking like, who was in Gemini? 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:20.000 You know, who was in this four or five member group? 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.359 You know, we've seen pictures when he was young with 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:25.040 this group in the studio. One of the things that 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:29.240 we found they were actively investigating what Jim and I was. 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.119 Who were the members And there's a list of about 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:36.639 thirty names of potential Gemini group members And it was 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.040 just crazy to see that because we could never figure 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.960 out is this actually a group. If it is a group, 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.359 how many versions of this group are there? You know, 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:47.639 we talked to Jimmy Howard, who was a member of 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.720 Jim and I. He's an advocate for Wayne Williams and 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.000 doesn't believe he was guilty. He was actually with Wayne 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.359 when he got arrested, him and another young boy at 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:58.320 the time. So it definitely appears that the group wasn't 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:01.280 a complete farce, right, there was a group that he 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.920 was constantly recruiting for makes it a much more desirable 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.280 way to attract the next kid. Oh, I want to 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.399 be in that group too. You know, my friend Jimmy 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:11.520 Howard told me about this group and then you know, 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:13.199 Jimmy said he went to school with the kid they 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:15.920 went missing. Some of the family members say that their 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:20.240 brother auditioned for Wayne Williams, So you know, it's um, 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.560 it's it's definitely a connection there. If this is your 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:28.080 way in to finding young kids and getting them away 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.320 from their parents, you know, you don't stop it when 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:32.520 you get your first five kids in this band, right, 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:34.240 you still need to recruit, you still need to bring 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:36.600 them in. So there's this extensive list of all these 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:38.879 kids that either they found out we're in the group, 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:40.840 or those kids told them they were auditioning for the group. 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:44.080 So it's it was a recruitment tool, um is what 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:46.120 it seems and what I gathered from from looking at 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:52.560 that list, there was definitely a lot of men that 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.840 the task force had talked to. A lot of those 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.280 men had long rap sheets. They had a history of violence, 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:03.520 and they had a history of being sexual predators. And 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:07.880 it was completely disturbing to see detailed accounts of how 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:13.520 grown men were sexually abusing kids and being incredibly violent 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.920 towards those kids. And seeing that just hit me hit 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.399 me differently. It told me that these kids were living 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:25.720 in a part of town in an era where they 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:29.000 were not only not being properly cared for, but when 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:33.520 they were interacting with adults, it was incredibly violent and 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:37.400 inexcusable in the way that they were being touched and 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:42.520 manipulated sexually for a few bucks. And I can't tell 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.960 you how that feels when you actually see the files 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.439 in detail based on these interviews with some of the 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.800 sexual predators, and they talked to everyone, but what they 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:57.400 did to these kids and is absolutely heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking. 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:02.960 There were sus backs, no shortage of names given. We 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:07.359 saw pictures too, There were like lineups in the files, 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:09.919 you know, pictures that the police had taken of people 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:12.639 that we'd never heard of and some that we had. 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:16.840 You can understand how unbelievable it was when Wayne Williams 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.840 was actually arrested, because he was kind of in there somewhere, 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:23.280 but there were so many people in there. It does 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:25.520 lend itself to the feeling of how can we be 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:30.960 sure because there was no shortage of possible suspects. It's 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.920 just weird to like put yourself in the same investigative 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:38.640 seat that a detective was in forty years ago, looking 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:41.320 at the same evidence, trying to hunt down the same 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:44.280 killer um and trying to bring closure and justice for 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:47.919 those same families and victims, and to be on the 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:50.640 same path and the same track without even knowing it. 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.160 And then you discovered their notes and their evidence forty 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:55.240 years later and you're like, oh, I knew that. That's 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.480 I knew it, and that's where we were going, and 0:20:57.520 --> 0:20:59.919 I just couldn't put it together. There was a lot 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.679 our revelations like that. So we're looking through all these files, 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:07.600 box by box, page by page, file folder by file folder, 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:10.000 and it was pretty clear that we were not going 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:13.880 to find the k files. Even with seventy thousand pages, 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:18.040 it wasn't the complete report. And then they had a 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:20.880 series of envelopes stacked at the end of the palette 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:22.639 and we didn't know what it was, but we had 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:27.080 a sneaking suspicion that was probably photographs, and so we 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:31.480 opened them up and it was crime scene photos of 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:39.520 the kids in back alleys in fields, use of bell pain. 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:42.760 Meredith and I had visited one of the school sites 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:45.200 that had been torn down right off the highway, and 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:49.479 I that was where use of belt was was found 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:52.920 under a floorboard in that school, and I saw the 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:57.000 photo for myself of usef under that floorboard when they 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:01.639 discovered him. It took to another level that I really 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:05.200 wasn't ready for. I had never seen photos of a 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:09.560 murdered child before, and the A p D officers said, 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:15.240 you never get used to it. In talking about this 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:19.080 this case, presenting this show, it's been really telling the 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:21.919 story of the Atlanta child murders. It really brought it 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:25.240 back home that this was something it was something deeper. 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:28.720 It really was about these kids and to see the 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:32.800 terrible ways that they were murdered and abandoned and treated. 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:38.000 This visit to the Annex was incredibly transformative in my 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:43.200 opinion of what had happened. At some point, if there's 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:45.240 something big found, it's like, oh wow, we just figured 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.080 out the attent of these murders should not have been 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:51.520 tribated to Wayne Williams. One of the three agencies represented 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:54.479 at that press conference is probably gonna be someone who 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:57.240 made a mistake fourty years ago. It's either gonna be 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:00.639 the d a's office, the Mayor's office, or the Atlanta 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:03.000 Police Department. The fact that they're all on the same 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:05.400 page trying to figure this out is a good sign 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:07.720 because if they find something, someone's going to be left, 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:09.920 you know, with the blame on that one. I hope 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:14.240 they broaden their scope of re examination of evidence to 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:20.800 reinvestigation of theories, because there may not be physical evidence, 0:23:21.000 --> 0:23:25.040 for example, that points to Louie Jeter's killer, but we 0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:27.760 we did speak to a friend of Charles Sanders KKK 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:31.200 member who's now deceased, who took credit for killing Louis 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:35.879 Jeter and potentially other victims. I'm hoping that they find 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:38.240 some evidence that that leads them to want to look 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:40.720 deeper and say, well, if we have this physical evidence, 0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:43.480 how do we now match that up with a theory 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:45.679 or an eyewitness. Let's open this thing all the way 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:48.000 up and let's start talking to people who experienced this 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:51.200 started talking to the officers about theories that they had. 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:53.400 They may have never got explored by the higher us 0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:56.280 because they were told to let it go to you know, 0:23:56.359 --> 0:24:00.200 this thing is over, stop stop talking about it. So yeah, 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:02.000 that's my hope is that you know, we can take 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:04.160 this first step and that at least to a second step, 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:06.800 that it's not just a one step process where we're 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:22.240 only looking at new technology looking into physical evidence. In 0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:27.760 January FBI agent John Douglas wrote the criminal Profile of 0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:31.679 the Atlanta Child Killer. The following is a conversation between 0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:35.520 Atlanta Monster host Payne Lindsay and the legendary FBI criminal 0:24:35.560 --> 0:24:41.719 profiler John Douglas. Hello, this is John. Hey John, This 0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:45.080 is Paine. Hey Paine, how are you doing? Good? Good? 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:47.720 You finally got me on here. I know, I finally 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:54.439 got you. Were dug in pretty deep to the Atlanta 0:24:54.520 --> 0:24:57.640 child murders case, and just seeing the work you've done 0:24:57.680 --> 0:25:00.840 and you're profiling, how would you summarize is your experience 0:25:01.040 --> 0:25:03.880 in that case? It was nineteen eighty one and we're 0:25:03.920 --> 0:25:07.560 just getting going, and the researched again in about nineteen seventy. 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:10.720 I got back in the Quantico seventy seven. By seventy nine, 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:14.280 we were already starting the interviews. The FBI was not 0:25:14.359 --> 0:25:17.359 embracing me, you know, at all yet. I think they 0:25:17.400 --> 0:25:19.359 were a little bit of standoffers who are afraid in 0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:23.080 case I screwed up on a case. Uh, they were 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:25.399 prepared to send me to Butte, Montana work in cattle 0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:28.879 rustling cases. So I didn't get any bureau cases. And 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:30.960 while this case was going on, I was doing so 0:25:31.080 --> 0:25:34.800 many other cases the bureau, and then one day calls 0:25:34.920 --> 0:25:37.119 up and they want me down there to go to 0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:40.400 Quantico and I went with another agent, Roy Hazelwood, since 0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:42.719 passed away, and it was our job to go out 0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:44.600 to the crime scenes take a look at the cases 0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:47.040 that they had. I can't remember the exact number, but 0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:49.199 even when we were down, their bodies were showing up. 0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:52.600 And then I sat down and started doing an analysis. 0:25:53.040 --> 0:25:58.120 It turned out to be extremely controversial because I said 0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:02.880 that the offender was going to be a black offender. Uh, 0:26:03.160 --> 0:26:05.520 they didn't have the term African American back then, so 0:26:05.520 --> 0:26:07.879 it would be a black offender. And it went through 0:26:07.920 --> 0:26:12.720 the whole all the specifics of the profile, the age grouping, 0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:16.920 the educational level. It's just based on things that we 0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:20.720 were beginning to see in serial murder cases. Noting that 0:26:20.920 --> 0:26:23.920 not all serial killers are textbook there are different types 0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:26.560 of serial killers. But I just started getting involved, so 0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:30.840 involved in the case and saw so many different victims. 0:26:31.440 --> 0:26:35.080 Why is it going to be a black offender in 0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:38.360 these cases as well? Pretty much with serial killers, it's 0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:41.360 the same race. It's the same race type of case. 0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:43.080 Once in a while you'll see him stepping over the 0:26:43.200 --> 0:26:45.600 lines but um, even though we did not have many 0:26:46.320 --> 0:26:49.560 black serial killers at that time, we do today. The 0:26:49.640 --> 0:26:51.760 studies that were done down there, we did little studies 0:26:51.800 --> 0:26:55.679 and the police to see if children would go with them, Uh, 0:26:55.880 --> 0:26:58.560 if they pulled into the inner city offered like five 0:26:58.640 --> 0:27:01.720 bucks to help them do some error in or something 0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:06.480 like that. Uh, these kids would do anything for five dollars. However, 0:27:06.920 --> 0:27:10.199 if it was a white person going into the area, Uh, 0:27:10.400 --> 0:27:13.840 they certainly would have been you know, observed by you know, 0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:16.320 by someone, and it was no one had observed any 0:27:16.400 --> 0:27:19.760 whites in these particular areas. You know, went through the 0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:23.440 cases and then started trying to link some of the 0:27:23.520 --> 0:27:26.960 cases together if are they all related? And this was 0:27:27.000 --> 0:27:30.600 before fiber evidence and hair evidence or anything like that, 0:27:30.840 --> 0:27:34.680 any of the forensics. Just based on behavioral linkage. We 0:27:34.760 --> 0:27:37.800 saw that there was maybe ten twelve cases that we 0:27:37.920 --> 0:27:41.600 believe we're perpetrated by. It was pretty clear cut that 0:27:41.680 --> 0:27:45.000 we could say was perpetrated by a single offender. We 0:27:45.119 --> 0:27:48.600 also saw some cases that we didn't believe we're related. 0:27:49.000 --> 0:27:54.239 For example, the two females, Latania Wilson and Angela Lanier. Uh, 0:27:54.560 --> 0:27:58.479 those two cases we felt were not in fact, Remember 0:27:58.520 --> 0:28:02.119 Angela Lanier how she was killed, and I remember a 0:28:02.359 --> 0:28:05.960 ligature around her neck, panty stuffed in her mouth that 0:28:06.000 --> 0:28:09.240 were not her panties. I think she was asphixiated, found 0:28:09.280 --> 0:28:11.040 in a wooded area, and they had a very very 0:28:11.080 --> 0:28:13.760 good suspect. They had an excellent suspect in that case. 0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:16.600 In fact, this guy was holding up his pants with 0:28:16.720 --> 0:28:20.040 a rope with similar ligature that was used in the killing. 0:28:20.200 --> 0:28:22.760 So I'm not involved in that part of the investigation. 0:28:22.880 --> 0:28:26.120 So that case we felt should not be on the list, 0:28:26.680 --> 0:28:29.080 nor should but the case of the child being abducted 0:28:29.200 --> 0:28:31.280 out of her house, and then I remember seeing we 0:28:31.400 --> 0:28:34.320 had a case of a young person who stabbed multiple 0:28:34.400 --> 0:28:37.760 times found in the yard. We didn't think that that 0:28:37.920 --> 0:28:40.640 case should have been on the list. Later on when 0:28:40.720 --> 0:28:44.400 Harren Fiber evidence came in coincidentally, it was on just 0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:47.960 those cases that we had pre selected. And then as 0:28:48.080 --> 0:28:51.200 time went on in the case, this happens typically with 0:28:51.360 --> 0:28:53.840 with some serial killers. That happened with the bt K 0:28:53.960 --> 0:28:56.719 strangler who I interviewed, happened with David Burkewitz, his son 0:28:56.760 --> 0:29:00.280 of Sam, who I interviewed. The motivation began to change 0:29:00.320 --> 0:29:03.720 because we went from bodies that were being secreted, we're 0:29:03.760 --> 0:29:06.840 finding skeletonized remains, and then all of a sudden, we're 0:29:06.880 --> 0:29:09.800 finding bodies out in open view. So we have a 0:29:09.880 --> 0:29:13.920 situation where we have an offender who is getting caught 0:29:13.960 --> 0:29:16.440 up into publicity now and there was a lot of publicity. 0:29:17.160 --> 0:29:19.640 One of the turning points and where I was a 0:29:20.480 --> 0:29:23.240 confident now that he was following the press and maybe 0:29:23.320 --> 0:29:26.600 we can do something to manipulate his behavior was when 0:29:26.880 --> 0:29:29.680 a guy calls up from Kanye's Georgia and he has 0:29:29.720 --> 0:29:33.680 a real thick, kind of redneck accident and he's calling 0:29:33.720 --> 0:29:36.040 the police saying he's killing He's using the N word. 0:29:36.440 --> 0:29:39.600 Uh of these end kids who he's killing, and I've 0:29:39.640 --> 0:29:42.600 killed him and I'm gonna kill more. And there's one 0:29:42.640 --> 0:29:46.400 out there on on Sigmund Road, and uh so the 0:29:46.440 --> 0:29:48.840 police calls up. And at that point in time, I'm 0:29:48.840 --> 0:29:52.440 back at Quantico and there's a room several agents. Is 0:29:52.480 --> 0:29:55.680 even a psychiatrist in there, Dr Park Deets, who's just 0:29:55.840 --> 0:29:59.040 kind of new, just came down from Harvard to understudy us, 0:29:59.080 --> 0:30:01.240 and he's gonna go from from where we are down 0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:05.120 to University of Virginia and says he's well known. They 0:30:05.160 --> 0:30:07.080 wanted us to listen to the tape. So they're listening 0:30:07.120 --> 0:30:10.240 to the tape, and you know they're they're believing that 0:30:10.400 --> 0:30:13.040 this is the Atlantic child killer. And so I said, 0:30:13.720 --> 0:30:16.480 I said, no, this redneck guy is not the atlant 0:30:16.560 --> 0:30:20.440 child killer. But we have to develop something. We have 0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:22.800 to identify him. What do we do? So I'm on 0:30:22.880 --> 0:30:25.000 the phone with the cops as a conference called type 0:30:25.040 --> 0:30:28.520 of thing, and I tell him what we should do is, uh, 0:30:28.960 --> 0:30:32.200 this this individual thinks we're real stupid. You know, they're 0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:36.000 we're just incompetent. And so he gave you specific instructions 0:30:36.040 --> 0:30:39.240 where to find this this body on sigmund Row where 0:30:39.240 --> 0:30:41.960 you is not going to be a body. But he's 0:30:42.000 --> 0:30:44.760 just harassing us. Let's just show him how stupid we 0:30:44.920 --> 0:30:48.080 really are. What do we do? He says, Well, all 0:30:48.120 --> 0:30:50.320 the instructions that he gave you just do the opposite. 0:30:50.320 --> 0:30:52.000 If he tells you to search the south side of 0:30:52.000 --> 0:30:55.000 the street, you searched the north side of the street. Distances, 0:30:55.240 --> 0:30:59.000 screw up the distances. And then why, he said, because 0:30:59.840 --> 0:31:02.240 he's going to call up again. I rate. And this 0:31:02.400 --> 0:31:05.040 is before the uh you know, the cell phones. We're 0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:07.600 gonna have traps and traces on the phone and you'll 0:31:07.640 --> 0:31:11.040 be able to, you know, identify this guy. So they 0:31:11.120 --> 0:31:14.960 do that and guess what, Sure enough, call comes in, 0:31:15.200 --> 0:31:18.600 your dumbasses, I told you to search a specific area. 0:31:18.680 --> 0:31:21.360 He got all screwed up, and they arrest the guy. 0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:24.760 That story and that arrest was picked up by the 0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:30.000 local papers, and then a body would be found days later. 0:31:30.000 --> 0:31:33.160 I can't remember exact time on Sigmund Road. It wasn't 0:31:33.240 --> 0:31:35.960 the area where this guy who was calling in said 0:31:36.040 --> 0:31:38.880 we should find a body. But the killer saw the 0:31:39.000 --> 0:31:41.920 article read about it, and then he kills and he 0:31:42.000 --> 0:31:44.960 brings the body and dumps it out on Sigmund Road. 0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:48.240 And so now that's in a way it's terrible for 0:31:48.320 --> 0:31:51.680 what he did, but it's it's good in a sense 0:31:52.000 --> 0:31:55.320 that we know he is following the press, so maybe 0:31:55.360 --> 0:31:59.479 we can do things to manipulate the behavior. And then 0:31:59.520 --> 0:32:03.040 on fortun and like the medical examer started talking about 0:32:03.200 --> 0:32:06.840 the victims and talking about getting hair and fiber evidence 0:32:06.920 --> 0:32:09.800 off of the bodies. So we had the discussion, and 0:32:09.880 --> 0:32:13.880 we believe that because this information came out, it shouldn't 0:32:13.880 --> 0:32:16.600 have come out that bodies would start ending up in water, 0:32:17.040 --> 0:32:19.640 and the body of water running through Atlanta was the 0:32:19.720 --> 0:32:23.160 Chattahoochee River. And then that's when the police, the FBI, 0:32:23.240 --> 0:32:27.000 the used cadets decided to stake out all the different 0:32:27.680 --> 0:32:30.440 bridges in town. And they did it for several days. 0:32:30.840 --> 0:32:33.320 They were about ready to break it off when that 0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:37.560 night they hear allowed splash in the water and then 0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:39.479 that's when they go up on the bridge and that's uh, 0:32:39.960 --> 0:32:43.320 Wayne B. Williams is up there in his vehicle. They 0:32:43.360 --> 0:32:45.760 didn't keep them there, They didn't search the vehicle. They 0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:48.080 looked in the vehicle. They could see ligatures in the 0:32:48.120 --> 0:32:51.280 back seat, some other items that could have been related 0:32:51.520 --> 0:32:54.280 to these crimes. But they meaning the Bureau of the 0:32:54.360 --> 0:32:56.760 Bureau that it just led him off, you know, which 0:32:56.800 --> 0:33:00.680 turning out to be a critical mistake. They're availing him 0:33:01.200 --> 0:33:04.360 an overt surveillance and he is back in his house 0:33:04.400 --> 0:33:07.080 where he lives with his mother and his dad, Homer, 0:33:07.600 --> 0:33:09.680 and they could see him in the backyard burning what 0:33:09.800 --> 0:33:11.720 they believe it was evidence. Later on they found out 0:33:11.760 --> 0:33:15.680 it was photographs that he was he was burning besides papers. 0:33:15.960 --> 0:33:18.680 When he started to get information back on the hair 0:33:18.760 --> 0:33:21.719 and fiber evidence, they had enough to to indie him. 0:33:21.800 --> 0:33:24.000 They bring him in for the interview of the interrogation. 0:33:24.040 --> 0:33:25.680 I was not part of that. I wish I was 0:33:26.200 --> 0:33:28.880 part of that because I believe when he came up 0:33:29.040 --> 0:33:32.240 he was vulnerable and I saw him it looked like 0:33:32.560 --> 0:33:34.920 he wanted to say something like he would, I believe, 0:33:35.000 --> 0:33:37.720 even confess at that point. He did not get a 0:33:37.760 --> 0:33:41.360 confession out of him. Then did you ever sit down 0:33:41.440 --> 0:33:43.920 with WAYN Williams in person? No, I always wanted to 0:33:43.920 --> 0:33:46.280 do it. I'm sure he's kind of tear asked with 0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:49.080 with me because well, you know, in this case, I 0:33:49.160 --> 0:33:52.400 was censured by the FBI and then received letter accommodation 0:33:52.640 --> 0:33:55.960 by the FBI. Typical in the bureau, they kicking the ass, 0:33:56.240 --> 0:33:58.600 then they pat you on the back. They kicked me 0:33:58.640 --> 0:34:00.959 in the ass because I was over are doing training 0:34:01.200 --> 0:34:03.520 for the military and came back and it was teaching, 0:34:03.880 --> 0:34:06.080 of course, to correctional group a little. I know there 0:34:06.160 --> 0:34:08.080 was media in the audience because they just made this 0:34:08.239 --> 0:34:11.080 arrest in Atlanta, and the question popped up. They said, 0:34:11.360 --> 0:34:13.600 what about this guy in Atlanta? And I said, well, 0:34:13.719 --> 0:34:15.480 if he's the one, he's going to be good for 0:34:15.600 --> 0:34:19.320 many of them. And because I said that in bureau parlance, 0:34:19.680 --> 0:34:23.880 I was making myself an FBI spokesperson and uh, I 0:34:23.920 --> 0:34:26.359 shouldn't have said that, even though it's just very very 0:34:26.920 --> 0:34:30.759 h theyue. So they kind of raked me over the 0:34:30.840 --> 0:34:33.960 coals back at Quantico and they had, you know, slapped 0:34:34.000 --> 0:34:37.759 me down and censured me. But meanwhile, months later, here 0:34:37.840 --> 0:34:40.839 comes a trial. Now they want me to go down 0:34:40.920 --> 0:34:44.719 there for the trial, uh and and provide assistance. The 0:34:44.880 --> 0:34:47.640 fascinating part of it was the trial. At times the 0:34:47.719 --> 0:34:51.040 prosecution didn't like what I was saying. For example, one day, 0:34:51.400 --> 0:34:54.160 all the experts are testifying, and the experts we have 0:34:54.280 --> 0:34:57.440 are fantastic. They get understand, they know their stuff, but 0:34:57.520 --> 0:34:59.440 I don't understand what you're saying. And if I don't 0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:03.560 understand they're saying, these jurors here from local community, they 0:35:03.600 --> 0:35:05.279 don't know what they're saying. So at the end of 0:35:05.280 --> 0:35:07.680 the day, they were back in the room conference room 0:35:07.880 --> 0:35:11.280 and they're laughing at the testimony given by the defense 0:35:11.400 --> 0:35:14.399 side on hair and fiber evidence. So they're talking about, 0:35:14.440 --> 0:35:16.759 oh do you hear him testifying about the twist of 0:35:16.800 --> 0:35:20.120 the fibers, and and oh, yeah, he's totally totally doesn't 0:35:20.160 --> 0:35:22.600 know what the hell he's talking about. And then they 0:35:22.640 --> 0:35:25.400 get to me, what do you think, John, what do 0:35:25.480 --> 0:35:28.560 you think you're losing the case. You're losing the case. 0:35:29.000 --> 0:35:31.359 What do you mean? He says. He says, that guy 0:35:31.880 --> 0:35:34.960 that they have may not know hair and fiber evidence 0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:38.279 of the science whatever, and our guys do. But I 0:35:38.440 --> 0:35:41.200 have no idea what our guys. And those guys were 0:35:41.239 --> 0:35:42.800 in the room with me, I had no idea what 0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:46.359 you're saying. You're so damn technical, You're not conveying clear 0:35:46.520 --> 0:35:49.840 enough to the jurors. So you're, in my opinion, you're losing. 0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:52.319 And so pretty much they want me to hell out 0:35:52.360 --> 0:35:55.080 of there. So I'm sent back to Quantico, but I 0:35:55.160 --> 0:35:58.239 don't go back right away. About a day later, and 0:35:58.320 --> 0:36:00.360 now we're at a point where Williams is going to 0:36:01.120 --> 0:36:05.239 be taking this stand, and uh, he initially did pretty good. 0:36:05.960 --> 0:36:09.919 But al Binder was the defense attorney. His nickname was Jaws, real, 0:36:10.239 --> 0:36:13.759 real good guy, and on this day he felt that 0:36:13.880 --> 0:36:16.960 he was doing pretty well and the jurors were kind 0:36:17.000 --> 0:36:20.239 of siding with with Williams. Maybe this guy has been 0:36:20.280 --> 0:36:23.800 wrongfully accused. I tap on the prosecutor's shoulder and it 0:36:23.920 --> 0:36:28.000 was Gordon Miller and turns around John. Yet what I says, Well, 0:36:28.239 --> 0:36:30.879 one week from today Williams is going to get sick 0:36:31.120 --> 0:36:33.000 and said, one week from today, he's gonna be feigning 0:36:33.520 --> 0:36:35.920 some type of illness. Why because it's gonna be a 0:36:35.920 --> 0:36:39.520 sympathy employ he may feel like he's losing. And they 0:36:39.560 --> 0:36:41.640 look at me like, what the hell are you talking about? 0:36:41.760 --> 0:36:45.040 So off again, go back to Quantico. John come back. 0:36:45.239 --> 0:36:48.040 So go back to Quantico. And then a good call, John, 0:36:48.120 --> 0:36:50.800 come back to Atlanta. He got sick in the courtroom. 0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:52.640 They take him to the hospital. They found out he 0:36:52.719 --> 0:36:55.239 wasn't sick. He wasn't sick at all. So then I 0:36:55.320 --> 0:36:58.040 go back and now Albino was going to bring in 0:36:58.400 --> 0:37:02.400 an expert from Arizona named Dr Michael Bayliss to testify 0:37:02.600 --> 0:37:06.640 that Wayne Williams is not the personality tight to perpetrate 0:37:06.719 --> 0:37:11.239 a crime like this. And so I'm staying at some 0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:15.640 hotel down there all by myself, eating dinner. And also 0:37:15.760 --> 0:37:18.680 I hear voices, and I said, oh my goodness, it 0:37:18.960 --> 0:37:24.000 is Mary Welcome. It's the all the attorneys, Jim Kitchens, 0:37:24.239 --> 0:37:28.320 attorney al Binder. And there's a guy over there is 0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:32.000 the African American guy. Who is this Michael Bayliss, who's 0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:36.719 probably I'm thinking he's gonna be testifying tomorrow. And I said, so, 0:37:36.800 --> 0:37:38.560 I'm trying to hide, and all of a sudden they 0:37:38.640 --> 0:37:41.759 spot me and they're looking over at me, and then 0:37:41.800 --> 0:37:44.680 all of a sudden, Michael Bayliss comes walking over and 0:37:45.719 --> 0:37:48.360 Dr Douglas and I didn't have my doctorate degree. And 0:37:48.520 --> 0:37:50.320 I said, no, no, no, I don't have my doctor 0:37:50.920 --> 0:37:53.000 So I'm Dr Michael Bayless and I said, yeah, I 0:37:53.320 --> 0:37:55.800 know who you are. I did a little research on you. 0:37:56.080 --> 0:37:58.239 Can I sit down here? And I really don't think 0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:01.000 it's a it's appropriate, please just for a minute. And 0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:05.080 so he sits down and and he says, uh, you 0:38:05.160 --> 0:38:07.239 said you did some background of me. What did you 0:38:07.320 --> 0:38:09.400 find out? All? I found out what your research is. 0:38:09.440 --> 0:38:13.200 I found out you did some research with antisocial personality 0:38:13.280 --> 0:38:16.280 types and you found one of the indicators like animal 0:38:16.320 --> 0:38:19.239 cruelty in the background, just like Wayne Williams had in 0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:22.879 his background, and some other characteristics and dead wedding due 0:38:22.880 --> 0:38:27.440 to emotional psychological reasons, child could be abused. And so 0:38:27.600 --> 0:38:29.600 did you laugh when you read it? No, I said, 0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:32.479 I didn't laugh. I said, but you, Dr Baylis, you'd 0:38:32.480 --> 0:38:36.400 realize that that Williams does in fact fit the profile. 0:38:36.960 --> 0:38:39.279 So he leans over the table and he says, you're right, 0:38:39.840 --> 0:38:42.759 he's a psychopath. And I said, well, I said, look, 0:38:42.800 --> 0:38:44.359 I gotta go, man, I gotta I gotta get back. 0:38:44.400 --> 0:38:46.640 So I walk out. Then Mary Welcome and the defense 0:38:46.680 --> 0:38:49.359 team calls me over, Oh John, and Mary Welcome says, 0:38:49.360 --> 0:38:51.279 you know, I wanted to join the FBI one time, 0:38:51.440 --> 0:38:54.800 and I said, I gotta go, so Bayliss. Bayliss walks 0:38:54.880 --> 0:38:56.320 me over to the door and he said, John, I 0:38:56.440 --> 0:38:58.759 really like to come back to Quantico one day to 0:38:58.880 --> 0:39:02.520 take classes from you at the FBI. And he strikes 0:39:02.560 --> 0:39:04.400 my hand and I'm holding his hands at Well, Michael, 0:39:04.960 --> 0:39:07.319 we'll see how you do tomorrow on the stand, whether 0:39:07.400 --> 0:39:10.600 or not you come back to the FBI academy. Well, 0:39:10.640 --> 0:39:14.480 the next day, guess what al bind against the courtroom, 0:39:14.880 --> 0:39:18.120 screaming and yelling that the prosecution his team are scaring 0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:21.360 off my expert witnesses. Michael Bayliss went back to Arizona. 0:39:21.560 --> 0:39:24.120 He's not gonna be testifying. It was a real big, 0:39:24.239 --> 0:39:27.719 big turning point. So now he doesn't testify, and then 0:39:27.960 --> 0:39:30.000 there's another conference where they want to know if I'm 0:39:30.000 --> 0:39:32.239 gonna be testifying. And I said, look, I said, it 0:39:32.640 --> 0:39:34.600 just depends. But if it's not me, I'll bring in 0:39:34.719 --> 0:39:37.239 a psychiatrist. If you don't like my credentials, there'll be 0:39:37.320 --> 0:39:40.319 some psychiatrists who worked with us. But then when al 0:39:40.400 --> 0:39:44.279 Binder now on the examination of Williams, and he makes 0:39:44.320 --> 0:39:46.200 him stand up, and he says, look at look at him. 0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:49.239 He holds Wayne Williams's hands. Do these look like the 0:39:49.320 --> 0:39:52.120 hands of a serial killer? And in the areas you know, 0:39:52.200 --> 0:39:56.040 pudgy Williams with soft, soft hands. At the end of 0:39:56.040 --> 0:39:59.120 the day, Now, who's gonna do Now they cross examination 0:39:59.440 --> 0:40:02.520 of Williams. That's going to be attorney Jack Mallards and 0:40:02.680 --> 0:40:06.239 Jack Malleck, Country's southern boy from down in Georgia. And 0:40:06.320 --> 0:40:09.040 we have a meeting. I said, Jack, if he can 0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:12.279 hold his hands, you should hold Williams's hand as well. 0:40:12.760 --> 0:40:15.720 And when you touch his hands, talking a low voice, 0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:19.000 you know what was it like, Wayne, when you wrapped 0:40:19.040 --> 0:40:23.720 your hands, your fingers around the victim's throats? Did you panic? Wayne? 0:40:23.760 --> 0:40:27.120 Did you ever panic? And he said no, in a 0:40:27.239 --> 0:40:30.840 real low voice, no, And then he catches himself and 0:40:30.920 --> 0:40:34.960 then starts screaming and yelling you want the real Wayne Williams. Well, 0:40:35.000 --> 0:40:37.640 here he is, and he points over to where I am. 0:40:37.719 --> 0:40:40.560 He says, I know, you've got that FBI profile over there, 0:40:40.600 --> 0:40:42.320 and you're trying to get me to fit that profile, 0:40:42.400 --> 0:40:44.720 but I'm not going to fit your profile. And everyone 0:40:44.880 --> 0:40:47.799 is a gas. The jurors are looking, you know, over 0:40:48.160 --> 0:40:52.560 the fence, and they screwed up. They probably never should 0:40:52.680 --> 0:40:54.320 let him, you know, get on the stand. So that 0:40:54.480 --> 0:40:56.719 was really that was kind of the turning point for 0:40:56.960 --> 0:41:00.719 for the you know, the trial itself and where the 0:41:00.840 --> 0:41:04.440 defense was kind of not prepared. In Atlanta, they convicted 0:41:04.480 --> 0:41:07.120 Williams of two cases, but they didn't charge him in 0:41:07.200 --> 0:41:09.319 the others. But they could show linkages even though they 0:41:09.320 --> 0:41:12.600 didn't introduce the other cases, they could show linkages to 0:41:13.040 --> 0:41:16.640 ten or twelve other cases, and the attorney's finder and kitchens. 0:41:16.760 --> 0:41:18.640 They try to argue that you've never heard of that before, 0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:21.160 but that's what they did in this In this case, 0:41:21.239 --> 0:41:25.480 here is Wayne Williams responsible for all the Atlantic child murders? 0:41:25.520 --> 0:41:28.560 Do you think no? And I said it then some 0:41:28.680 --> 0:41:31.640 people didn't like it. I remember going to the scene 0:41:31.680 --> 0:41:34.360 of one of the crimes down there and walking to 0:41:34.560 --> 0:41:36.840 the crime scene and as a detective next to me 0:41:36.920 --> 0:41:40.520 and uh, he tells me, hey, Douglas, you did this 0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:43.080 profile here and yeah, I said, I think it's a 0:41:43.160 --> 0:41:45.080 bunch of ship. And I said, well, good for you. 0:41:45.400 --> 0:41:46.880 I didn't ask to be here. If you don't like, 0:41:47.000 --> 0:41:48.520 I just soon go back to Quantico. I have a 0:41:48.600 --> 0:41:51.240 lot of cases, you know, waiting for me. A question 0:41:51.320 --> 0:41:53.760 came up to whether or not was a Ku Klux 0:41:53.840 --> 0:41:56.200 Klan type of thing, and I believe I addressed it 0:41:56.640 --> 0:42:00.759 because usually in clan type of cases, these white you 0:42:00.960 --> 0:42:03.920 hate types of groups, the crimes are very, very symbolic. 0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:07.720 There's some symbolism involved. You wouldn't be hiding the bodies. 0:42:07.840 --> 0:42:10.200 You're hanging a body, it's going to be on main street, 0:42:10.520 --> 0:42:14.160 you know, not in some wooded secluded areas. So I 0:42:14.280 --> 0:42:18.160 just never never saw, you know, other cases that we 0:42:18.239 --> 0:42:20.759 were looking at as any kind of a clan like thing. 0:42:21.040 --> 0:42:23.000 But going back to your statement, no, I did not 0:42:23.160 --> 0:42:26.279 believe and to this day, that he was responsible for 0:42:26.480 --> 0:42:29.880 all those, uh you know, all those cases. In your opinion, 0:42:29.920 --> 0:42:32.680 who else is? When you analyze the case, you break 0:42:32.719 --> 0:42:36.200 it down into different groups for motivation. Criminal enterprise as 0:42:36.239 --> 0:42:38.960 a category is there's some kind of money involved, is 0:42:39.000 --> 0:42:41.799 a drug related for example, type of thing. No, it's 0:42:41.840 --> 0:42:44.560 not that. Is it a group cause, meaning multiple people 0:42:44.760 --> 0:42:47.560 are involved. I didn't see this as as a group 0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:50.440 cause type of a murder. Look so this as an 0:42:50.480 --> 0:42:53.759 individual Is it a sexually motivated crime? There was no 0:42:53.880 --> 0:42:57.520 evidence that there was sex UH involved in these UH 0:42:58.080 --> 0:43:00.680 in these cases, but I felt it was what I 0:43:00.760 --> 0:43:04.440 felt was a personal cause, a personal cause, you know, existed. 0:43:04.760 --> 0:43:06.880 To get back to your question, Pain, I looked at 0:43:06.880 --> 0:43:09.279 the history. Every year in Atlanta, there was about a 0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:12.600 dozen murders of children before this ever happened. A lot 0:43:12.640 --> 0:43:16.000 of those cases, too, were in a personal violence cases 0:43:16.120 --> 0:43:19.640 where there they were family members involved in the UH 0:43:19.760 --> 0:43:22.320 in the deaths, you know of their of the children, 0:43:22.760 --> 0:43:25.680 and who knows, then maybe some of those cases could 0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:28.719 be attributed to Williams early on. I don't know. You 0:43:28.840 --> 0:43:32.000 have to go back to that date. What was happening 0:43:32.160 --> 0:43:35.239 was was that they were entertainers coming in from all 0:43:35.320 --> 0:43:38.160 over the world. Really, but you had Frank Sinatra, had 0:43:38.200 --> 0:43:41.840 Sammy Davis Jr. Coming in for concerts, moneies, millions of 0:43:41.880 --> 0:43:45.560 dollars were coming in. So families wanted to be on 0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:47.800 that list. They were getting money, and so for you 0:43:47.880 --> 0:43:49.440 to come up and say no, all these cases are 0:43:49.480 --> 0:43:52.000 not on the list. They're not happy. What do you 0:43:52.080 --> 0:43:56.480 think Wayne Williams motive was. I think it changed. Sometimes 0:43:56.520 --> 0:43:59.120 they'll change your motivation. I don't care how they come 0:43:59.160 --> 0:44:03.800 across an interview or interrogation, particularly interviews or research interviews 0:44:03.840 --> 0:44:06.720 I've done in prisons. Uh, they come across maybe real confident, 0:44:06.760 --> 0:44:09.160 but really deep down there's a lot of inadequacy. This 0:44:09.280 --> 0:44:12.000 guy here is a real failure. He was trying all 0:44:12.080 --> 0:44:15.759 different kind of jobs d J at a little uh 0:44:16.200 --> 0:44:20.040 Ham operator radio station. He had, his parents went bankrupt 0:44:20.080 --> 0:44:22.839 trying to support him. He really thought he was going 0:44:22.920 --> 0:44:25.719 to be developing the next Jackson five. But he just 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:29.759 had failure. You have to failure and the crimes these 0:44:29.800 --> 0:44:35.480 are crimes of power, crimes anger retaliation or maybe wrongdoing 0:44:35.680 --> 0:44:39.480 or personal animosity towards some of the people that you 0:44:39.520 --> 0:44:42.719 know he was killing. But then what happened because of 0:44:42.840 --> 0:44:46.560 all the publicity and all the police agencies, I mean everyone, 0:44:46.600 --> 0:44:49.200 I mean the President United States was following this case 0:44:49.600 --> 0:44:51.359 and he got caught up with that, and then that's 0:44:51.400 --> 0:44:54.280 when he started with you know, the challenging and became cocky. 0:44:54.800 --> 0:44:58.960 Now you have this insignificant nobody. He'll never call himself that, 0:44:59.080 --> 0:45:02.360 but that's what he was. Became a somebody. He's got power. 0:45:02.640 --> 0:45:05.680 He can manipulate not only the victims, but he's manipulating 0:45:05.719 --> 0:45:08.879 the entire law enforcement body. All the bodies and law 0:45:08.960 --> 0:45:12.080 enforcement bodies are work on this case, and he's putting 0:45:12.120 --> 0:45:14.400 the fear of God, you know, in the community. He 0:45:14.480 --> 0:45:16.320 had a classic kind of background. He was also a 0:45:16.360 --> 0:45:19.960 police buff He got busted for impersonating a police officer. 0:45:20.040 --> 0:45:22.319 He had the police dog, which was popular at that time. 0:45:22.719 --> 0:45:25.800 You know, the shepherd living at home with with his 0:45:25.960 --> 0:45:29.520 elderly parents. They were old enough to be his grandparents. 0:45:30.160 --> 0:45:32.040 When you go interview him, but I know you've talked 0:45:32.080 --> 0:45:34.960 with him in prison. These guys they have they have 0:45:35.040 --> 0:45:38.600 an answer for everything after so many years. No matter 0:45:38.680 --> 0:45:41.719 what you ask, he'll give you a logical answer or uh, 0:45:42.080 --> 0:45:44.080 that's all that's on their plate. And he just keeps 0:45:44.120 --> 0:45:47.160 talking and talking until I forget what he's talking about. Yeah, 0:45:47.600 --> 0:45:50.120 and I'll see guys, you know, I like that, and 0:45:50.400 --> 0:45:52.880 it's just uh, and it's hard to do. Are you 0:45:53.040 --> 0:45:56.080 doing telephonically? It's hard to do even in prison face 0:45:56.160 --> 0:45:59.240 to face after all these years, Like if I was involved, 0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:01.840 like an interview with him, He's not. He'd be crazy, 0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:05.920 uh to admit to anything. But when I do do interviews, 0:46:06.360 --> 0:46:09.520 it's different than the Mine Hunter Netflix show, give an 0:46:09.560 --> 0:46:12.279 example one. You know they'll show a tape recorder and 0:46:12.400 --> 0:46:15.719 you know, taking notes and all that did that early on, 0:46:16.080 --> 0:46:18.600 but you're dealing with people are paranoid to begin with, 0:46:18.880 --> 0:46:21.920 but not paranoid being psycholtic, just paranoid and for good 0:46:21.960 --> 0:46:24.840 reason for Williams to paranoid. In the system where he is, 0:46:24.960 --> 0:46:27.720 you can't trust anyone, can They don't trust the guards 0:46:27.920 --> 0:46:30.600 or they won't trust anyone going into any interview. So 0:46:30.760 --> 0:46:32.759 I found out that I had to go in when 0:46:32.840 --> 0:46:36.439 I would do an interview, after early mistakes that I made, 0:46:36.920 --> 0:46:39.719 go in with no notes, just trying to memorize every 0:46:39.800 --> 0:46:42.759 aspect of the case. We also developed a fifty seven 0:46:42.800 --> 0:46:46.400 page question Jennaire that would be asking the offender different questions, 0:46:46.440 --> 0:46:49.360 but most of that we filled out before the interview. 0:46:49.520 --> 0:46:52.759 Then after the interview back of the motel, we would 0:46:52.840 --> 0:46:55.760 just memorize the kind of things were interested in. Victim selection, 0:46:55.880 --> 0:46:59.240 pre offense behavior, post offense behavior, you know those types 0:46:59.280 --> 0:47:01.520 of things, and they test you, they test you to 0:47:01.520 --> 0:47:03.480 see if you really know the case. They'll throw a 0:47:03.600 --> 0:47:06.360 curve and they lie to you. They'll lie, and then 0:47:06.400 --> 0:47:08.360 you got to catch him in a lie. But you 0:47:08.360 --> 0:47:11.080 don't catch him alive by slapping him down and call 0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:13.160 him a lie. I would just laugh. I would just 0:47:13.280 --> 0:47:16.759 kind of laugh, and I would allow Williams, if I 0:47:16.880 --> 0:47:19.759 was gonna face to face or you face to face 0:47:19.840 --> 0:47:22.880 with him, is given the feeling or given the power 0:47:23.000 --> 0:47:26.320 of control the crimes or crimes of power and control. 0:47:26.400 --> 0:47:28.680 So you have to you have to let him take 0:47:28.680 --> 0:47:32.359 control and then say in that interview room, a lot 0:47:32.440 --> 0:47:34.239 of the guys I've interviewed would sit up on the 0:47:34.320 --> 0:47:36.520 back of chairs to look down at me and sit 0:47:36.560 --> 0:47:38.800 on a cardenza, or if we're both in chairs, I 0:47:38.920 --> 0:47:41.920 slipped lower and you know that they're higher, that they 0:47:42.000 --> 0:47:45.000 have the semblance of you know, of control, you know, 0:47:45.320 --> 0:47:48.239 you know over me. But so many years with him, 0:47:48.360 --> 0:47:52.240 he would not He's not going to confess to anything 0:47:52.360 --> 0:47:56.040 anything at this point because he's denied after all these years, 0:47:56.280 --> 0:47:59.600 you know, his involvement in these in these cases. Yeah, 0:48:00.000 --> 0:48:02.880 it seems like he's never gonna admit anything. And he 0:48:02.920 --> 0:48:05.000 seems like he holds onto the truth, like the small 0:48:05.160 --> 0:48:07.520 kernel of truth that he didn't kill all the kids. 0:48:08.000 --> 0:48:11.120 He knows that, and so he focuses only on that, Yes, 0:48:11.320 --> 0:48:13.920 and he's right. Then sometimes he'll throw in stuff where 0:48:13.960 --> 0:48:15.879 like he was working for the federal government, like give 0:48:15.880 --> 0:48:17.719 the impression like he was C I A or something 0:48:17.800 --> 0:48:19.560 like that, or I F B I I don't you know, 0:48:19.600 --> 0:48:22.399 like he's some intelligence kind of guy. I mean, it's 0:48:22.440 --> 0:48:25.120 just what do you make of that? Just desperation. Again, 0:48:25.320 --> 0:48:27.160 he's such an inadequate loser. I mean, he has to 0:48:27.200 --> 0:48:30.960 have power and control and he's trying to give himself 0:48:31.200 --> 0:48:34.319 some self worth. That's the only reason they'll throw out, 0:48:34.520 --> 0:48:37.000 you know stuff, you know, stuff like that. Again, the 0:48:37.040 --> 0:48:41.960 crimes are manipulative, manipulation, domination, and control. He did that 0:48:42.080 --> 0:48:44.600 with the victims, He did it with the police, he 0:48:44.719 --> 0:48:48.719 did it with uh, with with society you know down 0:48:48.760 --> 0:48:51.840 there at that at that time. There was always a 0:48:51.960 --> 0:48:55.920 situation too with Wayne Williams sexuality. During the trial, they 0:48:55.960 --> 0:48:58.719 had different people testifying that, I mean really that there 0:48:58.800 --> 0:49:00.360 was a girl once a while, but really it was 0:49:00.520 --> 0:49:02.239 just he never really had There was no not a 0:49:02.360 --> 0:49:06.239 relationship with females. There was always a male type of relationships. 0:49:06.320 --> 0:49:08.560 But then even then he didn't have really a whole 0:49:08.640 --> 0:49:11.200 lot of a whole lot of friends. And then when 0:49:11.200 --> 0:49:13.399 you start hitting that age, he's just a little younger. 0:49:13.560 --> 0:49:16.280 Usually it surfaces, i should say it around the mid twenties, 0:49:16.560 --> 0:49:19.560 the mid twenties when the crimes begin. He's twenty three. 0:49:19.960 --> 0:49:23.719 Age is difficult because sometimes you deal with biological age 0:49:23.840 --> 0:49:27.520 versus emotional age, so you can miss that characteristics. But 0:49:28.040 --> 0:49:30.239 there may have been some things, may have been cases that, 0:49:30.440 --> 0:49:33.680 like I said earlier, that happened before this grouping. You 0:49:33.760 --> 0:49:36.440 know of cases here, and usually look again for the 0:49:36.719 --> 0:49:40.160 precipitating event or stress or in the background. You can 0:49:40.200 --> 0:49:42.920 make crimes like this. It's just doesn't happen all of 0:49:42.960 --> 0:49:45.560 a sudden. There's this build up and with him, and 0:49:45.760 --> 0:49:49.440 you have to show a trend perhaps of losing and 0:49:49.680 --> 0:49:53.520 and and he's trying to develop groups, and he's getting 0:49:53.560 --> 0:49:56.880 rejected rejected, and maybe pressure is coming within the family. 0:49:57.320 --> 0:49:59.320 You know, he's I want to be you want to 0:49:59.400 --> 0:50:03.560 be caught. He's just seeking for positions of of power. 0:50:03.640 --> 0:50:06.400 He's taking photographs, goes out to scenes and tries to 0:50:06.480 --> 0:50:10.800 sell the photographs to news uh, you know, outlets. But 0:50:11.040 --> 0:50:13.640 usually there's something that finally when you talk to him, 0:50:13.800 --> 0:50:15.920 what did it? And usually that's what you find in 0:50:15.960 --> 0:50:18.600 the background. More times than I'll tell the person i'm 0:50:18.600 --> 0:50:20.239 talking to, Hey, this is probably what happened to you 0:50:20.680 --> 0:50:24.040 at that particular time. When you have a bunch of cases, 0:50:24.400 --> 0:50:27.279 if you can determine which of these cases were the 0:50:27.440 --> 0:50:31.080 first crimes, the very first ones. Uh that it's important 0:50:31.480 --> 0:50:34.920 because when he perpetrated a crime, they're looking for the 0:50:35.000 --> 0:50:38.279 comfort zone, a place where they feel they can commit 0:50:38.320 --> 0:50:41.560 a crime. It's safe, it won't get caught, no interference. 0:50:41.960 --> 0:50:44.680 You'll find your most clues there. Usually it's an area 0:50:45.080 --> 0:50:50.000 where they reside, where they've been employed. Then if something happens, 0:50:50.480 --> 0:50:53.200 maybe they go back for the disposal of a child. 0:50:53.600 --> 0:50:56.319 In this case, someone was there or cop car came 0:50:56.360 --> 0:51:00.080 by just coincidentally. They then go to a second or 0:51:00.200 --> 0:51:03.200 comfort zone, and they'll stay there a while, but really 0:51:03.520 --> 0:51:06.480 they're drawn back to the first generalized area. So that's 0:51:06.560 --> 0:51:08.279 some of the things that you look for. You know, 0:51:08.360 --> 0:51:11.080 with someone like that, you also look for which probably 0:51:11.160 --> 0:51:13.880 was some of the stuff he was burning in his backyard. Uh. 0:51:14.080 --> 0:51:16.720 Is that they document They not only they take pictures 0:51:17.080 --> 0:51:20.520 of their victims had almost with exception and today now 0:51:20.600 --> 0:51:23.600 today it's easy with your cell phone. Uh. They have 0:51:23.800 --> 0:51:27.200 may have drawings of what they want to do to 0:51:27.360 --> 0:51:29.920 the victims, but probably not so much. He probably wouldn't 0:51:29.920 --> 0:51:31.719 go with the drawings. He probably go more with maybe 0:51:32.000 --> 0:51:36.920 a diary and photographs. And why because they look for victims. 0:51:37.080 --> 0:51:40.000 You know, often some guys will look for nightly the predatory. 0:51:40.600 --> 0:51:44.120 These are achievements, so they will whip out these photos 0:51:44.239 --> 0:51:47.359 of articles of clothing, even belonging to the children. Uh, 0:51:47.440 --> 0:51:51.160 and fantasize and kind of relive the experience over and 0:51:51.320 --> 0:51:54.040 over again. So when he was burning that stuff, that's 0:51:54.040 --> 0:51:57.160 a shame. I think there was some mishaps in the investigation. 0:51:57.640 --> 0:52:00.200 You know, why no search warrant? Why didn't they tying 0:52:00.239 --> 0:52:03.000 him on the bridge, um than just watching him from 0:52:03.000 --> 0:52:06.600 afar as he's in the backyard waving stuff before he 0:52:06.680 --> 0:52:09.920 burns it to the people under who are surveiling him 0:52:11.600 --> 0:52:13.759 that day in the backyard, what do you think he 0:52:13.880 --> 0:52:17.200 was burning? I think he was burning Uh, photos of 0:52:17.360 --> 0:52:21.840 the of the victims, maybe some clothing clothing of the victims. 0:52:21.960 --> 0:52:26.080 Any documentation that he may have had, like contracts between 0:52:26.440 --> 0:52:28.480 the various victims. That's what you know. That's what he 0:52:28.600 --> 0:52:31.320 was burning. Wasn't Homer with him though, wasn't wasn't his 0:52:31.480 --> 0:52:33.680 dad with him at that time with the burning. I 0:52:33.719 --> 0:52:35.799 don't know, it's been so long, I mean when they 0:52:35.840 --> 0:52:38.000 were burning stuff. Yeah, yeah, he may or may not 0:52:38.120 --> 0:52:39.840 have known. I mean he may he may not have 0:52:39.920 --> 0:52:42.840 known what the heck he was specifically burning or seeing 0:52:42.880 --> 0:52:46.080 what he was burning. Who knows what what Homer, what 0:52:46.200 --> 0:52:48.920 Homer knew, or what he may have suspected. Did you, uh, 0:52:49.200 --> 0:52:53.919 did you find anything peculiar about Wayne's relationship to his father? Yes, 0:52:54.320 --> 0:52:58.640 and uh, there were things there and I'm not I 0:52:58.719 --> 0:53:02.000 will tell you off the wreck were through or something, 0:53:02.160 --> 0:53:03.719 but I'm not gonna say. I'm not gonna say on 0:53:03.800 --> 0:53:06.560 the air. There were things. There was something in the uh, 0:53:06.880 --> 0:53:10.839 in the backgrounds of Homer, and that came up during 0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:14.040 the d A investigation, the police investigation, and but they 0:53:14.080 --> 0:53:32.640 never brought it up during the trial. H John, tell 0:53:32.680 --> 0:53:34.560 me about your new book coming out. It's called The 0:53:34.680 --> 0:53:37.840 Killer Across the Table and it consists of four different 0:53:38.120 --> 0:53:40.600 types of killers. A guy from the state of Washington, 0:53:41.000 --> 0:53:44.879 serial killer kills his friends, children, and no one knows 0:53:44.960 --> 0:53:48.279 he's the suspect. He can participates in searches. His name 0:53:48.360 --> 0:53:52.479 is Joseph Conjo and they got Donald Harvey from Cincinnati area. 0:53:52.840 --> 0:53:56.280 Over about sixteen seventeen year period, he kills between seventy 0:53:56.280 --> 0:53:58.480 and a hundred patients and a couple of different hospitals. 0:53:58.719 --> 0:54:00.759 But then you get down to South Carol Line and 0:54:00.920 --> 0:54:03.200 it's Todd Cole. Hep he was a guy. In two 0:54:03.239 --> 0:54:07.360 thousand sixteen, the police rescued Carla Brown in a storage 0:54:07.400 --> 0:54:10.160 container where she was kept a couple of months during 0:54:10.200 --> 0:54:13.319 the hot heat in the summers of South Carolina. Very 0:54:13.400 --> 0:54:17.359 interesting guy, real smart. He would kill seven people they 0:54:17.400 --> 0:54:20.400 rescued her. But I got involved after public speaking at 0:54:20.440 --> 0:54:22.600 a university down there, and the cops came up to me. 0:54:22.920 --> 0:54:24.759 Can I help him on a case where four people 0:54:24.800 --> 0:54:27.200 were killed in a motorcycle shop. What I said was 0:54:27.320 --> 0:54:29.600 in all probability after looking at your case, this is 0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:34.080 a personal cause homicide. Uh this this is a disgruntled 0:54:34.360 --> 0:54:39.360 employee or a disgruntled customer, But no probability. Just unto customer. 0:54:39.600 --> 0:54:41.680 His name is going to be probably in that in 0:54:41.760 --> 0:54:45.759 this file drawer. Unfortunately, at that time the police had 0:54:45.800 --> 0:54:48.360 that information started going through the file system. But they 0:54:48.520 --> 0:54:51.759 stopped because they began to focus on an individual who 0:54:52.280 --> 0:54:55.200 arrived at the scene that day and was the first 0:54:55.239 --> 0:54:58.320 one to find these four people having shot multiple times. 0:54:58.560 --> 0:55:00.719 So he was a suspect for years and years. Cole 0:55:00.760 --> 0:55:03.160 hep his name was in that file, and then he 0:55:03.200 --> 0:55:06.120 would go on and he would kill three more. Smart 0:55:06.160 --> 0:55:08.560 guy aged fifteen, He rips a fourteen year old girl, 0:55:09.040 --> 0:55:11.960 goes to a men's prison, not a juvenile prison, gets 0:55:12.000 --> 0:55:16.560 out fifteen years later, picks up to college degrees. Uh. 0:55:16.920 --> 0:55:20.840 He picks up a real estate license, then a broker's license, 0:55:21.000 --> 0:55:23.759 owns a real estate company. Then he picks up a 0:55:23.880 --> 0:55:27.839 private policy license. Smart guy and asking me, he wants 0:55:27.880 --> 0:55:29.759 me to tell him really what makes him ticks? So 0:55:29.840 --> 0:55:33.600 I go through that. Another interesting cases out of Trenton, 0:55:33.640 --> 0:55:37.040 New Jersey. Get real close to the family. The mother 0:55:37.160 --> 0:55:40.480 of the victim sends her daughter out to collect money, 0:55:41.000 --> 0:55:43.840 uh for the sale of a box of cookies. And 0:55:43.920 --> 0:55:47.520 here's a guy named McGowan living with his mother and grandmother. 0:55:47.680 --> 0:55:50.000 The mother's away. He lives in the basement of this 0:55:50.200 --> 0:55:53.520 bi level house. Little girl comes to the door and 0:55:54.120 --> 0:55:56.920 what's what happened here was that the pearl Board asked 0:55:56.960 --> 0:56:01.880 me to go speak with him and given evaluation. And 0:56:01.880 --> 0:56:04.040 again I'm not a psychologist, have a doctor. He was 0:56:04.080 --> 0:56:08.239 an education but I give classes into a psychologist and psychiatrist, 0:56:08.520 --> 0:56:11.239 just my experience, and so they had me go in. 0:56:11.400 --> 0:56:13.840 He was gonna get out and after um it was 0:56:13.880 --> 0:56:17.000 about a five hour interview or so. It was unbelievable. 0:56:17.440 --> 0:56:20.560 I was able to bring him back to that thirty 0:56:20.640 --> 0:56:25.200 years ago where he starts trembling, shaking. It's free it 0:56:25.320 --> 0:56:28.360 was freezing in this, uh, this several room where we 0:56:28.440 --> 0:56:32.920 were together, and he his pecks and his chests are trembling, 0:56:33.080 --> 0:56:36.800 and but he's perspiring and he's looking off and he says, 0:56:37.160 --> 0:56:39.080 when I heard the knock on the screen door, John, 0:56:39.080 --> 0:56:40.440 I knew I was going to kill her. And he 0:56:40.520 --> 0:56:43.920 goes through all all the gory details of of what 0:56:44.120 --> 0:56:47.800 he did and and I'm talking positive to him. I 0:56:47.960 --> 0:56:50.880 have no notes, no nothing again, no tape recorder. And 0:56:51.280 --> 0:56:54.279 I asked him, question, when you get out, where you 0:56:54.360 --> 0:56:56.279 going and he says in New York? And I said, 0:56:56.320 --> 0:56:58.719 man as I was raised as a kid in New 0:56:58.800 --> 0:57:01.759 York and it's expensive. And so he looks around to 0:57:01.800 --> 0:57:04.200 see if the guards were listening in on our conversation, 0:57:04.320 --> 0:57:06.960 and they weren't. And he comes up and he says, John, 0:57:07.080 --> 0:57:09.719 he whispers into my ears, is I got money? You 0:57:09.800 --> 0:57:13.080 got money from where you make a license place? And 0:57:13.120 --> 0:57:15.960 he said no. He said, when my when my mother died, 0:57:16.040 --> 0:57:19.080 I got the insurance money. When my grandmother died, got 0:57:19.120 --> 0:57:22.880 insurance money. And then sell the house. I got insurance money. 0:57:23.640 --> 0:57:26.080 And uh. And I said where's the money? And he 0:57:26.120 --> 0:57:27.920 whispers and he said, well, I put the money out 0:57:27.960 --> 0:57:30.480 of state. Why did you do that so the victims 0:57:30.560 --> 0:57:32.800 family can't get any of the money. How much money 0:57:32.840 --> 0:57:37.439 you got? Six d fifty dollars? So wow, I said, 0:57:37.720 --> 0:57:40.720 you're gonna do great when you get to New York. 0:57:40.800 --> 0:57:43.080 I pained you with that kind of money. Well, little 0:57:43.120 --> 0:57:45.200 does he know? The next day and no, I guess 0:57:45.240 --> 0:57:48.400 he does know. He just forgot who I was. I'm 0:57:48.440 --> 0:57:51.640 gonna slam dunk his ass before the parole board one 0:57:51.680 --> 0:57:54.160 of two times. And I go through all this. They 0:57:54.240 --> 0:57:58.320 just told you, I told you, uh, And they're shocked. 0:57:58.400 --> 0:58:00.920 They're shocked, and they how are we able to do it? 0:58:01.040 --> 0:58:03.080 I said, I said, well again, I went and I 0:58:03.200 --> 0:58:05.200 had no notes. I just studied the files that you 0:58:05.280 --> 0:58:10.520 provided to me police files, and um, and I'm not 0:58:10.560 --> 0:58:14.280 gonna rely on self reporting. You people rely on self reporting. 0:58:14.760 --> 0:58:16.320 You don't want to look at the crime scene fun 0:58:16.360 --> 0:58:18.120 You don't want to look at those crimes scenes of 0:58:18.680 --> 0:58:22.200 Joan Della Sandro who he sexually assaulted, and how he 0:58:22.360 --> 0:58:25.040 killed her and how he disposed of her. You don't 0:58:25.040 --> 0:58:27.560 want to. You don't do that. And because you don't 0:58:27.600 --> 0:58:30.440 do it, you don't understand the criminal mind. And then 0:58:30.440 --> 0:58:32.960 they get sometimes look at angry and they'll say, well, 0:58:33.400 --> 0:58:36.640 if we look at it, it would prejudice it would 0:58:36.680 --> 0:58:40.560 prejudice me or us. Uh, if we saw all that, 0:58:40.760 --> 0:58:42.920 and well, what are you gonna do? I'm gonna rely 0:58:43.160 --> 0:58:46.720 on the interview process. They'll tell me, and I can determine, 0:58:46.800 --> 0:58:51.040 maybe not the non verbals through my experience that you 0:58:51.120 --> 0:58:54.000 know when he's lying. And I said, well, you know, 0:58:54.080 --> 0:58:56.520 good luck, I said, because because unless you look at 0:58:56.560 --> 0:58:58.760 the material, these guys will lie to you, and they 0:58:58.880 --> 0:59:02.640 test you real real early on in the in the 0:59:03.240 --> 0:59:08.680 interview process with with them. And uh, the the crime 0:59:08.960 --> 0:59:11.760 and the crime scene is reflection of the offender. And 0:59:12.320 --> 0:59:15.680 I always say to to understand the artist, you must 0:59:15.720 --> 0:59:17.960 look at the artwork you could interview and artists, you've 0:59:17.960 --> 0:59:19.680 better look at the artwork before you talk to him. 0:59:19.880 --> 0:59:22.320 To understand the criminal. You better look at the crime 0:59:22.600 --> 0:59:25.320 before you talk to him. So how can you you know, 0:59:25.480 --> 0:59:30.320 mr psychologist, psychiatrists and border parole corrections for example, you're 0:59:30.360 --> 0:59:33.480 gonna be You're gonna be determining whether or not a rapist, 0:59:33.520 --> 0:59:37.240 for example, should be released from from prison. You know, 0:59:38.240 --> 0:59:43.680 unless you know the sexual assault, what the sexual assault entailed, 0:59:43.960 --> 0:59:47.040 what the verbal assault was, or the victim before, during, 0:59:47.120 --> 0:59:50.040 and after the crime, what the physical assault was, I 0:59:50.080 --> 0:59:52.800 mean physical how much force did he use before, during, 0:59:53.400 --> 0:59:56.080 even perhaps when he left the victim? Unless you have 0:59:56.160 --> 0:59:58.440 the verbal, sexual, physical, you have no clue. You have 0:59:58.520 --> 1:00:01.560 no idea what type of rapist dealing with. And with 1:00:01.720 --> 1:00:04.720 some of them, yes, there maybe some rehab potential, but 1:00:04.840 --> 1:00:07.840 others you can throw the key way. And there are 1:00:07.880 --> 1:00:10.720 five different rape typologies. And I try to educate them, 1:00:11.200 --> 1:00:14.080 and but it's based on you have to have that information. 1:00:14.480 --> 1:00:18.360 So so I tell them that, but then again they 1:00:19.040 --> 1:00:21.240 probably still even if they look at it, they may 1:00:21.280 --> 1:00:24.280 not know what it all means. Had one had one, 1:00:24.440 --> 1:00:26.600 uh tell me though, how he had nightmares and he 1:00:26.720 --> 1:00:28.640 was involved in one of our early research. We're going 1:00:28.720 --> 1:00:31.520 to use him as a psychologist, and he and he 1:00:31.840 --> 1:00:34.560 couldn't look at the at the pictures, even if the 1:00:34.600 --> 1:00:37.920 photographs of the crimes and get into the details. And 1:00:38.040 --> 1:00:40.720 so we we deep six to him. We got rid 1:00:40.760 --> 1:00:42.880 of that, got rid of him, you know, quick, because 1:00:42.920 --> 1:00:45.960 you have to do it work in these cases or 1:00:46.360 --> 1:00:50.680 being on Atlanta child homicides, the impact is having on families, 1:00:50.760 --> 1:00:53.640 the community. It's terrible and one of the hardest things 1:00:53.760 --> 1:00:57.000 is really dealing with the surviving victims of these types 1:00:57.080 --> 1:01:00.280 of crimes. It takes us toll. It took a toll 1:01:00.360 --> 1:01:03.480 on me, I'll tell you that much. I understand that 1:01:03.600 --> 1:01:06.560 the the Atlanta p D reached out to you, they 1:01:06.600 --> 1:01:08.320 want to know what you've got or yeah, I mean 1:01:08.360 --> 1:01:10.920 they actually um opened their doors to me and let 1:01:11.000 --> 1:01:13.080 me go with my team, uh and go through all 1:01:13.120 --> 1:01:16.480 their boxes of files. This is actually before they made 1:01:16.520 --> 1:01:19.520 a big announcement about reopening the case. It seems like, 1:01:19.680 --> 1:01:23.240 for whatever reason, they're open to discussing this. They weren't 1:01:23.280 --> 1:01:24.680 a year and a half ago when I was doing 1:01:24.960 --> 1:01:28.080 the podcast. But um, I think since then everyone's opened 1:01:28.160 --> 1:01:29.600 up a little bit and they want to, you know, 1:01:29.680 --> 1:01:32.680 bring whatever closure they can. Your podcasts is so popular 1:01:32.840 --> 1:01:36.400 and and law enforcement is saying that that social media 1:01:37.080 --> 1:01:39.640 can be very very helpful. You don't want people like 1:01:39.760 --> 1:01:44.240 running out conducting interrogations like your listeners are doing anything 1:01:44.280 --> 1:01:48.320 like that. Or but for lead value, gosh, I mean, uh, 1:01:49.000 --> 1:01:53.480 you know today it's it's fantastic and uh, you can 1:01:53.520 --> 1:01:55.800 come up with some you know, very very good, you 1:01:55.840 --> 1:01:58.280 know good leads on on cases like this, even though 1:01:58.560 --> 1:02:00.800 it's so old now, that could be people out there, 1:02:00.840 --> 1:02:03.080 and I'm sure there are people out there who they 1:02:03.120 --> 1:02:06.360 have other you know, other information, uh that could help 1:02:06.600 --> 1:02:09.280 and help with these cases. I guess they're saying that 1:02:09.800 --> 1:02:13.240 they're not saying that they don't believe he's responsible, but 1:02:13.480 --> 1:02:15.720 but I think there's they're thinking, well, let's see if 1:02:16.080 --> 1:02:18.280 did he do them all? I mean, they closed twenty 1:02:18.360 --> 1:02:21.080 nine cases. That's not the first time I've seen something 1:02:21.160 --> 1:02:23.360 like that too. They've done it. I've done it, Uh 1:02:23.640 --> 1:02:26.080 some other cases I've been involved with. Where where are 1:02:26.080 --> 1:02:29.120 they just kind of will clear the books and wipe 1:02:29.160 --> 1:02:32.480 them all off. You can link cases through victimology. There's 1:02:32.520 --> 1:02:35.680 similarities and victims. You can link cases by m O 1:02:35.800 --> 1:02:40.240 modus operandi. But modus operandi will change because it's learned 1:02:40.280 --> 1:02:43.640 behavior and if subjects make mistakes, something doesn't go right, 1:02:43.680 --> 1:02:46.120 they will modify them m O. And the other way 1:02:46.200 --> 1:02:49.440 is it's signature, is it's something unique. I mean posing 1:02:49.480 --> 1:02:53.080 a body alongside of a road, posing another case. Uh, 1:02:53.200 --> 1:02:56.200 there was torture involved in a series of cases. So 1:02:56.440 --> 1:02:58.720 I was able to testify and link the cases. Not 1:02:58.920 --> 1:03:01.600 you can't say that that this guy here in the 1:03:01.680 --> 1:03:04.320 courtroom did it. And all you're saying is whoever did it? 1:03:04.680 --> 1:03:08.000 Did these cases? In my opinion, you know did them all? Uh? 1:03:08.520 --> 1:03:11.280 And profiles just you know too, and the listeners. It's 1:03:11.440 --> 1:03:13.880 it's an investigative tool and it's not a substitute for 1:03:14.040 --> 1:03:17.840 thorough and well planned investigation. Sometimes law enforcement comes a 1:03:17.840 --> 1:03:21.680 little bit too early and want this like some magical profile. Uh. 1:03:21.760 --> 1:03:24.520 In the eighties it wasn't so much. They came for 1:03:24.600 --> 1:03:26.640 the profile because they were getting so much heat. But 1:03:27.240 --> 1:03:30.919 it wasn't a hundred percent accepted. Probably not a hundred 1:03:30.960 --> 1:03:33.880 percent accepted today. But again too, it depends who's doing 1:03:34.120 --> 1:03:38.560 the analysis. The analysis. I think my original group that 1:03:38.760 --> 1:03:42.040 I had up to the point where I retired, we're 1:03:42.160 --> 1:03:45.480 really good because they all had uh around sixteen seventeen, 1:03:45.600 --> 1:03:50.480 eighteen years in in that unit, and and we're really 1:03:50.560 --> 1:03:53.000 top notch. Had about forty two people and a dozen 1:03:53.360 --> 1:03:58.120 a dozen profile uh profiling, and it wasn't more we 1:03:58.720 --> 1:04:00.720 call them profiles, but they were us so much more 1:04:00.800 --> 1:04:03.600 than that. They because we a lot of the times 1:04:03.640 --> 1:04:06.200 you just can't do a profile, and maybe the case 1:04:06.320 --> 1:04:08.640 is not suitable to do a profile, so you may 1:04:08.960 --> 1:04:10.880 may you have to tell a police that. But maybe 1:04:10.920 --> 1:04:14.360 here's a proactive you know, you know technique we can 1:04:14.400 --> 1:04:17.560 employ it. Uh give an example. Just then I let 1:04:17.640 --> 1:04:21.120 you go, or you'll let me go. It's it's uh 1:04:21.600 --> 1:04:25.400 the when Frank Sinatra's coming to Sammy Davis Jr. They're 1:04:25.400 --> 1:04:28.560 going to come down and the concert. I've I've I 1:04:28.720 --> 1:04:32.080 believe what greatest thrill it would be for the killer 1:04:32.560 --> 1:04:35.960 two attend the conference, be in the audience. But you 1:04:36.000 --> 1:04:38.960 could have like fifty thousand people there. But what can 1:04:39.000 --> 1:04:42.240 I do? What? And I suggested it would have been great, 1:04:42.800 --> 1:04:45.320 but it was analysis paralysis and it never went through. 1:04:45.400 --> 1:04:47.720 And this is what it was. It's that I believe 1:04:47.800 --> 1:04:50.640 the guy, the killer would be a police buff Uh 1:04:51.040 --> 1:04:54.080 have a vehicle, has and so we would advertise that 1:04:54.160 --> 1:04:57.720 we need security and may get a nominal amount of 1:04:57.760 --> 1:05:00.920 money or it could be voluntary type of but I 1:05:01.000 --> 1:05:04.840 must have a have perhaps have a definitely have a 1:05:04.920 --> 1:05:06.960 vehicle because we knew the killer had a vehicle, and 1:05:07.080 --> 1:05:10.560 then to have some kind of maybe uh background and 1:05:10.880 --> 1:05:15.000 and uh law enforced more tangentially and connected to that. 1:05:15.360 --> 1:05:17.520 And what we could do is when people applied for 1:05:17.600 --> 1:05:21.560 the job, will use the analysis I developed to eliminate 1:05:21.760 --> 1:05:25.200 or put others on the front burner. And that's what 1:05:25.840 --> 1:05:28.560 uh if. It was a great idea, but it went 1:05:28.640 --> 1:05:31.880 around analysis paralysis. You know. The bureau at the time 1:05:31.960 --> 1:05:33.520 is is this is this is too much of a 1:05:33.640 --> 1:05:37.720 high risk, you know. And I thought it was fantastic, 1:05:37.800 --> 1:05:40.440 so it never was employed, uh you know, And and 1:05:40.520 --> 1:05:42.160 that is and that's some of the things I liked 1:05:42.240 --> 1:05:45.480 really developing for law enforcement is if you can't do 1:05:45.560 --> 1:05:47.640 an analysis, maybe I can come up with some kind 1:05:47.680 --> 1:05:51.280 of proactive technique to try to try to get the guy. 1:05:51.360 --> 1:05:54.480 And uh, you know, sometimes it's better just to just 1:05:54.640 --> 1:05:57.240 to do it. And and if you know, rather than 1:05:57.240 --> 1:06:00.080 ask for permission, ask for for forgiveness. They say, if 1:06:00.080 --> 1:06:02.080 you screw up, just go ahead and do it rather 1:06:02.080 --> 1:06:05.400 than ask, because sometimes they just they just analyze and 1:06:05.480 --> 1:06:09.360 analyze and and I heard that would that would be 1:06:09.400 --> 1:06:11.160 a question if you ever get to interview him again, 1:06:11.680 --> 1:06:14.040 uh Pain, ask him that question. Did you have did 1:06:14.080 --> 1:06:16.080 he have a go to those concerts? I heard that 1:06:16.200 --> 1:06:18.560 he did. I heard that he did or was planning to, 1:06:18.960 --> 1:06:20.919 you know, ask him that if you ever have talked 1:06:20.960 --> 1:06:23.120 to him in the future. I'm pretty sure his dad 1:06:23.280 --> 1:06:26.480 was there because he was taking pictures. Oh really, so 1:06:26.640 --> 1:06:30.200 I would think that Wayne would also be there. Yes, interesting, Sae. 1:06:31.200 --> 1:06:34.640 This has been extremely helpful and enlightening. Oh thank you. 1:06:34.920 --> 1:06:37.880 You probably got more than you you ventured for Pain. 1:06:39.200 --> 1:06:58.960 All right, I have a good one too. Atlanta Monster 1:06:59.080 --> 1:07:01.919 is a joint production between iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works 1:07:02.080 --> 1:07:05.880 in Tenderfoot TV special thanks to Atlanta Mayor Keisha lance 1:07:05.920 --> 1:07:09.680 Bottom's Atlanta Police Department Chief of Police Erica Shields, and 1:07:09.840 --> 1:07:13.640 author and founder of the FBI Investigative Support Unit John Douglas. 1:07:14.200 --> 1:07:17.440 Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. For the 1:07:17.520 --> 1:07:20.840 latest updates, visit Atlanta Monster dot com or follow us 1:07:20.880 --> 1:07:24.000 on social media. For more podcasts. For my Heart Radio, 1:07:24.280 --> 1:07:27.360 visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1:07:27.480 --> 1:08:08.720 you listen to your favorite shows. Yea, as promised, here's 1:08:08.720 --> 1:08:12.520 an exclusive clip from the next episode of Monster Presents Insomniac. 1:08:17.760 --> 1:08:21.080 Following the November murder of his niece and her friend, 1:08:22.120 --> 1:08:25.080 Gaskin's next serious murder was a twenty year old named 1:08:25.120 --> 1:08:28.519 Martha Dix. Pee Wee had discovered she was the one 1:08:28.560 --> 1:08:32.599 who had sold his niece the drugs. Dix was attracted 1:08:32.600 --> 1:08:34.760 to pee Wee and often hung around him at his 1:08:34.840 --> 1:08:38.440 part time job at a car repair shop, but apparently 1:08:38.920 --> 1:08:42.559 pee Wee didn't feel the same attraction. He killed her 1:08:42.600 --> 1:08:44.519 with a strong dose of acid he had stolen from 1:08:44.560 --> 1:08:48.680 a photographer. He poured it into a Coca cola and 1:08:48.800 --> 1:08:52.920 she unknowingly ingested the fatal dose. The acid worked fast, 1:08:53.560 --> 1:08:57.120 and she died a relatively quick but painful death right 1:08:57.160 --> 1:09:03.160 in front of him in Another young woman who considered 1:09:03.160 --> 1:09:06.080 Gaskins a friend was twenty three year old Doreen Dempsey. 1:09:07.360 --> 1:09:09.200 Doreen was a mother of a two year old baby 1:09:09.280 --> 1:09:12.360 girl named Robin Michelle, and she was pregnant with a 1:09:12.439 --> 1:09:16.400 second child at the time. She felt comfortable enough around 1:09:16.400 --> 1:09:19.479 Peewee to accept a ride to the bus station, after all, 1:09:20.360 --> 1:09:25.640 Peewee was an old friend. Instead, Gascons drover to a 1:09:25.720 --> 1:09:29.679 secluded wooded area, raped and killed her in the back 1:09:29.720 --> 1:09:33.160 seat of his hearse, and then raped and sodomized two 1:09:33.200 --> 1:09:38.519 year old Robin Michelle before killing her too. Peewee provided 1:09:38.520 --> 1:09:40.840 a graphic description of this pair of rapes and murders 1:09:40.880 --> 1:09:44.400 in his book Final Truth, and the details are just 1:09:44.479 --> 1:09:48.200 as horrific as you might imagine. At the time, no 1:09:48.280 --> 1:09:51.639 one suspected Peewee Gaskins was capable of such sadistic killings, 1:09:52.840 --> 1:09:55.680 but word was getting around about Peewee, and there were 1:09:55.680 --> 1:09:57.360 a few people in town who knew that he would 1:09:57.400 --> 1:10:03.439 do it if the price was right. H In a 1:10:03.560 --> 1:10:06.680 year that pee Wee would later call his killingist year, 1:10:07.280 --> 1:10:10.280 Gaskins got a little careless and murdered three people whose 1:10:10.320 --> 1:10:12.240 van had broken down on the side of the highway. 1:10:13.400 --> 1:10:16.560 Gaskins suddenly found himself in need of a favor. He 1:10:16.680 --> 1:10:19.360 needed help getting rid of the trio's van, and he 1:10:19.479 --> 1:10:24.679 enlisted the help of an ex con walter neely Neeli 1:10:24.760 --> 1:10:28.160 and Gaskins went about their own criminal business, but would 1:10:28.160 --> 1:10:30.120 occasionally help out each other if they were in need 1:10:30.160 --> 1:10:34.960 of some sort of assistance disposing of stolen cars, stolen goods, 1:10:35.520 --> 1:10:43.400 and occasionally bodies. Also in nineteen a woman named Suzanne 1:10:43.479 --> 1:10:47.920 Kipper Owens hired Peewee to killer ex boyfriend, a man 1:10:48.080 --> 1:10:52.360 by the name of Silas Barnwell Gates. Yates was a 1:10:52.400 --> 1:10:57.040 wealthy farmer in Florence County, South Carolina. Gaskins and a 1:10:57.080 --> 1:11:01.040 pair of accomplices were successful in kidnapping and murdering Yates, 1:11:01.439 --> 1:11:04.000 and he collected the one thousand, five hundred dollars Susan 1:11:04.040 --> 1:11:07.639 Owens had promised him, But things went wrong soon after, 1:11:08.840 --> 1:11:10.599 and Pee Wee realized that he had to kill two 1:11:10.640 --> 1:11:14.840 additional people to cover up the Yates murder. His accomplices 1:11:14.880 --> 1:11:18.120 were twenty nine year old Diane Neely and thirty five 1:11:18.240 --> 1:11:22.680 year old Avery Howard. Diane Neely was the wife of 1:11:22.760 --> 1:11:27.559 Walter Neely, and she and Howard an ex con we're 1:11:27.600 --> 1:11:33.439 having an affair. The pair attempted to blackmail Gaskins for 1:11:33.520 --> 1:11:37.360 five thousand dollars in hush money after assisting in the 1:11:37.439 --> 1:11:43.240 abduction and murder of Silas Yates. The two were quickly 1:11:43.360 --> 1:11:46.320 killed by Gaskins after they agreed to meet Peewee at 1:11:46.320 --> 1:11:52.280 the payoff location. In the meantime, Gaskins was busy killing 1:11:52.560 --> 1:11:56.160 and torturing more coastal kills, as well as other people 1:11:56.200 --> 1:12:00.599 he knew, including a thirteen year old named Kim Gilkins 1:12:01.560 --> 1:12:06.360 who sexually rejected him. All leads in the investigation of 1:12:06.400 --> 1:12:10.880 the disappearance of Kim Gelkins pointed to Gascons, but there 1:12:10.960 --> 1:12:15.920 was nobody yet, so there was no arrest. The authorities 1:12:15.960 --> 1:12:20.400 eventually did find evidence implicating Peewee, so he was indicted 1:12:20.479 --> 1:12:23.760 for contributing to the delinquency of a miner and kept 1:12:23.840 --> 1:12:29.120 in jail until his trial. Walter Neely was also being held, 1:12:30.160 --> 1:12:32.439 but during that time he began to speak with a 1:12:32.520 --> 1:12:37.360 local preacher and they began to pray together. They prayed 1:12:37.400 --> 1:12:41.000 for forgiveness, and when Walter Neely was ready to confess 1:12:41.080 --> 1:12:43.880 his sins to God, he was also ready to speak 1:12:43.920 --> 1:12:58.800 to the authorities. Listen to Monster Presents Insomniac on Apple Podcasts, 1:12:59.000 --> 1:13:02.160 the I Heart Radio, or wherever you listen to podcasts.