Speaker 1: You might recognize my voice. This is the Zodiac speaking.
Speaker 1: I'm Scott Benjamin, the host of a new true crime
Speaker 1: podcast from the creators of Atlanta Monster and Monster the
Speaker 1: Zodiac Killer. It's called Master Presents Insomniac. If you're tired
Speaker 1: of the same old true crime stories being told and
Speaker 1: retold time and time again, We'll break that pattern. In
Speaker 1: every episode, I tell the story of a lesser known killer,
Speaker 1: a monster that will give you nightmares. But it doesn't
Speaker 1: stop there. I'll also tell you how these killers really
Speaker 1: have invaded my dreams. It's raw, it's real, and there
Speaker 1: are plenty of episodes to binge with more on the way.
Speaker 1: Stick around after this bonus episode of Atlanta Monster for
Speaker 1: an exclusive clip from the next installment If Master Presents Insomniac.
Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely
Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast,
Speaker 1: and do not necessarily represent those of I Heart Media,
Speaker 1: Stuff Media, or its employees. So I have a friend
Speaker 1: that works in the mayor's administration. He called me the
Speaker 1: morning of the press conference and just gave me the
Speaker 1: heads up that this was going down, that there would
Speaker 1: be families there the Mayor herself, as well as police
Speaker 1: chief and other people, and that there would be some
Speaker 1: announcement made. When it was Donald Albright, president of Tenderfoot
Speaker 1: TV and executive producer of Atlanta Monster, that was the
Speaker 1: first time I heard about it, and I jumped up
Speaker 1: and said, look, I need to be there. We need
Speaker 1: to capture audio on this good afternoon. Then thank you
Speaker 1: all for being here. In nineteen seventy nine, I was
Speaker 1: nine years old. I was the daughter of a single mother,
Speaker 1: working two jobs and back in school in the evenings.
Speaker 1: My story was the story of many children across this city.
Speaker 1: In the backdrop of that story, it's something that has
Speaker 1: stayed with me my entire life. And that was the
Speaker 1: era of Atlanta's missing and murdered children. And for those
Speaker 1: of us who grew up in that era, in so
Speaker 1: many ways, it shaped our childhood. It robbed us of
Speaker 1: our innocence, and it reminded us all that evil was
Speaker 1: real and Atlanta. Another Barday was discovering today a police
Speaker 1: times Force headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall, murdered,
Speaker 1: one missing. We do not know the person or persons
Speaker 1: that are responsible. Therefore, we do not have the morning
Speaker 1: from Tenderfoot TV and House of Forts in Atlanta like
Speaker 1: a lot of another reason victims in Atlanta Rogers apparently
Speaker 1: was asphyxiated. Atlanta was unlikely to catch the killer unless
Speaker 1: she keeps on killing. This is Atlanta monster. The mayor
Speaker 1: came out and she made a really emotional and powerful announcement.
Speaker 1: I stand here as the sixtie of Mayor of Atlanta
Speaker 1: now the mother of four children, ages eight through sixteen.
Speaker 1: Their ages are reflective of the children who were killed
Speaker 1: during my childhood. A lot has changed in Atlanta since
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, and a lot has changed in our
Speaker 1: world since nineteen one, when there was a conviction for
Speaker 1: two of these murders, the conviction of and Williams. We
Speaker 1: now know that DNA technology is much more advanced. But
Speaker 1: also last week, I've watched a national story that mentioned
Speaker 1: the arrest of a man charged with two rapes and
Speaker 1: murders based upon inputting his DNA or their DNA into
Speaker 1: a national database. I immediately reached out two Chief Shields
Speaker 1: to ask her what if any updated testing had we
Speaker 1: done as it relates to the missing and murdered children.
Speaker 1: For the mayor to do this, I think is a
Speaker 1: is a big statement. I think it's it's genuine and
Speaker 1: comes from a place of someone who could have been
Speaker 1: a victim, you know, who felt that fear as a
Speaker 1: child uniform Mayor Cosine read as well as Mayor Bottoms.
Speaker 1: There of the age range of the children who went
Speaker 1: missing at that time, they aren't the older politicians that were,
Speaker 1: you know, a little more focused on moving the city
Speaker 1: forward and passed his tragedy. They were the kids that
Speaker 1: suffered from this tragedy. So if anyone's going to take
Speaker 1: a look into this, it would be them, and in
Speaker 1: this case the current mayor. Chief Shields then took the
Speaker 1: next step and spoke with our partners at the g
Speaker 1: b I, who agree with Chief Shields that it would
Speaker 1: certainly be in order for us to now look once
Speaker 1: again at evidence that the City of Atlanta has in
Speaker 1: its possession, evidence that the g v I has in
Speaker 1: its possession, to once again take a fresh look at
Speaker 1: these cases and to determine once and for all, if
Speaker 1: there is additional evidence that may be tested that may
Speaker 1: give some peace, to the extent that peace can be
Speaker 1: had in a situation like this, to the victims families
Speaker 1: to let them know that we have done all that
Speaker 1: we can do to make sure that their memories are
Speaker 1: not forgotten, and then the truest sense of the word
Speaker 1: to let the world know that black lives do matter.
Speaker 1: You know, I think we should be reopening and re
Speaker 1: examining the cases that we feel are not attributed to
Speaker 1: Wayne and that's someone else responsible for, and also re
Speaker 1: examining the way this was handled. I think if this
Speaker 1: was some independent investigation that was you know, fueled by
Speaker 1: a third party, then it wouldn't feel as gratifying the
Speaker 1: fact that the city is stepping up. You know, they're
Speaker 1: skeletons in the closet of the City of Atlanta, and
Speaker 1: this is one of them. I will turn the podium
Speaker 1: over two, Chief Erica Shields. Thank you. Eric. In May
Speaker 1: of n A p D, Detective Bob Buffington was working
Speaker 1: the homicide of one of the victims, Eric middle brooks
Speaker 1: age fourteen. Detective Buffington's spotted trace fiber evidence on middlebrook
Speaker 1: shoe and collective or further examination. This type of evidence
Speaker 1: collection had never occurred before. This was brand new for
Speaker 1: the Atlanta Police Department, and while some of his colleagues
Speaker 1: respected his attention to detail, there were many who made
Speaker 1: a mockery of his discovery. So Bob took this evidence
Speaker 1: to a micro analyst at the Georgia Bureau of Investigation
Speaker 1: and fortunately that he met someone there, a young fellow
Speaker 1: by the name of Larry Peterson, who took interest in it.
Speaker 1: This piece of evidence became crucial in the trial against
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams. So let's fast forward forty years to today
Speaker 1: and conceptualize all of the advancements that have been made
Speaker 1: in science since that first carpet five rother was found.
Speaker 1: We have an obligation to take those advancements and see
Speaker 1: if any further analysis can be conducted on the property
Speaker 1: and evidence that was collected four years o. The families
Speaker 1: deserved to find closure. The Atlanta Police Department has reached
Speaker 1: out to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. What we've asked
Speaker 1: is that they look at the evidence that was handed
Speaker 1: over to them forty some years ago and they see
Speaker 1: whether any of it qualifies for further analysis, and what
Speaker 1: we are asking of them that they report back to
Speaker 1: us what they have that could potentially be tested, and
Speaker 1: they've agreed to do this. Separately, there is evidence from
Speaker 1: the trial that the District Attorney's office has and he's
Speaker 1: very graciously offered to go through it and see was
Speaker 1: there anything that was presented a trial that potentially is
Speaker 1: eligible for testing. And lastly, the Atlanta Police Department has
Speaker 1: numerous boxes of evidence from the trial. Now much of
Speaker 1: it is documents and transcripts, but we already have begun
Speaker 1: the process of going through these boxes to see there's
Speaker 1: anything that was never tested that would not be a value.
Speaker 1: We don't know what we'll find, but what we do
Speaker 1: know is we have an obligation. I have an obligation
Speaker 1: to these families to ensure that every imaginable investigative lead
Speaker 1: was followed. I think it was a step in the
Speaker 1: right direction because we have to start the conversation again.
Speaker 1: Hopefully what they find will cause the d A's Office
Speaker 1: to reopen some of these cases. But as of now,
Speaker 1: what they're doing is looking at the evidence that already
Speaker 1: has been collected. They're going to utilize the latest technology
Speaker 1: and see if there was new testing that they could
Speaker 1: do on any of the evidence that still exists in
Speaker 1: a p d S custody. We know, just by researching
Speaker 1: this case what's out there in that evidence locker? Are
Speaker 1: those evidence lockers, those boxes from forty years ago, some
Speaker 1: of those boxes that we've already seen ourselves looked through.
Speaker 1: When the series wrapped, there was obviously a lot of
Speaker 1: open questions things still hanging out there. And the one
Speaker 1: thing that kept bothering me was the mentioned of files
Speaker 1: related to the KKKS involvement. This is Jason Hooke, executive
Speaker 1: producer of Atlanta Monster on behalf of How Stuff Works.
Speaker 1: I went to the FBI website, We looked at stacks
Speaker 1: and stacks and documents, and went down to most of
Speaker 1: the local government offices, the courthouses, and no one had
Speaker 1: any record of these KKK files. I finally landed at
Speaker 1: the ap D, the Atlanta Police Department, and filed an
Speaker 1: open records request and almost immediately her back from one
Speaker 1: of the officers who was on the front lines of
Speaker 1: the press team, and she said, we have something called
Speaker 1: the a p D Annex which holds thousands and thousands
Speaker 1: of files and records. It might just be in there.
Speaker 1: She said, I'm just here to tell you there's about
Speaker 1: seventy thousand pages in this archive. We have no idea
Speaker 1: what's actually here. You're going to have to go through
Speaker 1: this yourself. Reviewing those documents. At the time that we
Speaker 1: did this was you know, probably six months ago by now.
Speaker 1: Had we not reviewed them then and then this press
Speaker 1: conference happened, I don't think we'd have access to those.
Speaker 1: It was, you know, seventy thousand documents just boxed upon
Speaker 1: box of you know, a file on every single victim,
Speaker 1: crime scene photos, slideshow presentations, sheets that were filled out
Speaker 1: from every single phone tip that came in, who called in,
Speaker 1: when they called in, where they called in, and like
Speaker 1: a summary of the tip they gave. I'm Meredith Steadman,
Speaker 1: I'm a creative producer at Tenderfoot TV. And down below
Speaker 1: and in pages behind them it would say like how
Speaker 1: the officer followed up on that tip. I was pretty
Speaker 1: impressed by the amount of tips they actually followed up on.
Speaker 1: We got a sense of how many man hours, like
Speaker 1: I went into gatherting all this stuff. So if you're
Speaker 1: thinking that this wasn't a thorough investigation, that they didn't
Speaker 1: really care what was happening, that could be said at
Speaker 1: the very very beginning, when there wasn't the attention given
Speaker 1: to those victims, you know, because they were pouring black
Speaker 1: and because those mothers didn't get the respect that they
Speaker 1: deserved and those children didn't. But once the investigation started,
Speaker 1: and once there was a task force, once they dedicated
Speaker 1: man hours to this, they kept every single document. After
Speaker 1: being in this podcast for so long and caring the
Speaker 1: frustration from so many people, it did seem like a
Speaker 1: lot of the officers were trying really hard to follow
Speaker 1: up on as much as they could, and the volume
Speaker 1: was big. These were actually original forty year old Manila
Speaker 1: envelopes with every victim's name on them. We saw the
Speaker 1: original crime scene quotas, we saw the picture of that
Speaker 1: first red fiber on that tennis shoe. It was extremely
Speaker 1: sad because it's all real. When you're sitting behind a
Speaker 1: computer desk and you're investigating online, you're only finding what
Speaker 1: people have access to, have scanned in and have uploaded.
Speaker 1: So I saw some of those original pictures that I
Speaker 1: had seen online, but there are thirty or fifty more
Speaker 1: that never made it online. So you might see one
Speaker 1: picture of a victim, but we've seen fifty and multiple
Speaker 1: angles close ups on what the trained photographer, who you know,
Speaker 1: is supposed to take pictures of what they see on
Speaker 1: the scene as potentially relevant. The way their clothes were positioned,
Speaker 1: you know, whether they had shoes on or not, or
Speaker 1: how far away the body was from the road. It
Speaker 1: puts you right there at the crime scene. You know,
Speaker 1: it was hard to look at forty years later and
Speaker 1: there's nothing you can do about it, but you you
Speaker 1: feel the connection there of being being right there and
Speaker 1: when it happens. So you just imagine like seeing it
Speaker 1: as a police officer discovering it. We heard them talk
Speaker 1: about finding those first two bodies and then seeing the
Speaker 1: pictures of that. It's an image that you you don't
Speaker 1: want to see, but you also don't want to forget,
Speaker 1: because this is a real story that you can't look
Speaker 1: at as just a podcast, as just an old cold
Speaker 1: case or old case that's been solved. These are real
Speaker 1: cases with real kids that never got to grow up,
Speaker 1: and it's just it's just extremely sad. I think the
Speaker 1: most interesting thing that I read while going through the
Speaker 1: files is this account about knowing Wayne Williams but knowing
Speaker 1: him under a different name. The police or whoever had
Speaker 1: filed this report. They had spoken to someone and I
Speaker 1: guess they'd shown him a photo of Wayne Williams. They said,
Speaker 1: I know that guy, but I know him under a
Speaker 1: different name. I don't know him as Wayne Williams, and
Speaker 1: they said he lives at this apartment with this other man.
Speaker 1: There was another account that said, I do know that man,
Speaker 1: but I don't know him as Wayn Williams. I know
Speaker 1: him under a different name. He has a roommate, which
Speaker 1: is this guy. There was an apartment that someone who
Speaker 1: least looked very identical to Wayn Williams was living in
Speaker 1: or renting with another male, and at that apartment it
Speaker 1: seemed like they had younger men over for I'm not
Speaker 1: sure what, but that's how they knew that apartment, because
Speaker 1: they had been invited there before and they knew way
Speaker 1: Williams under a different name. A lot of people expressed,
Speaker 1: how could he be doing something like this in his
Speaker 1: home with his parents, that it doesn't seem feasible, And
Speaker 1: I thought, oh wait a second, maybe Wayne Williams had
Speaker 1: an altar life, like a life outside of his home.
Speaker 1: It makes you really wonder who was his alleged roommate.
Speaker 1: A lot of people thought, you know, this can't be
Speaker 1: a one man job. Maybe it wasn't. It was stunning
Speaker 1: to see the kind of leads. Most of them were short,
Speaker 1: one page reports. But it also led into some interesting
Speaker 1: areas of focus. I found Wayne's original driver's license, a
Speaker 1: medical record from his mother, saw Homer's report card, not Wayne's,
Speaker 1: Homer's his dad. They were going all out to find
Speaker 1: everything that they could about this family. One of the
Speaker 1: things that really stuck with me were these letters sent
Speaker 1: by Wayne to Atlanta schools to teachers, and they were
Speaker 1: recruiting the kids in these classrooms on behalf of the
Speaker 1: teachers to try out for Wayne's talent shows. And it
Speaker 1: happened over and over and over again. And when you
Speaker 1: see something like that in a typed out form with
Speaker 1: letter head and the signature Wayne Williams at the bottom,
Speaker 1: it just did not feel right. It felt calculated that
Speaker 1: something was up here. They were addressed to the schools,
Speaker 1: they were addressed to vice principles, they were addressed to teachers.
Speaker 1: He was recruiting, recruiting kids more than you would than
Speaker 1: just kind of that average sign that you see on
Speaker 1: a telephone pole somewhere. I thought at about that for
Speaker 1: days and days. It really bothered me. We talked a
Speaker 1: lot in the podcast about Jim and I and this
Speaker 1: group that Wayne Way was putting together. You know, he
Speaker 1: was a talent scout trying to make the next Jackson five,
Speaker 1: and we are always thinking like, who was in Gemini?
Speaker 1: You know, who was in this four or five member group?
Speaker 1: You know, we've seen pictures when he was young with
Speaker 1: this group in the studio. One of the things that
Speaker 1: we found they were actively investigating what Jim and I was.
Speaker 1: Who were the members And there's a list of about
Speaker 1: thirty names of potential Gemini group members And it was
Speaker 1: just crazy to see that because we could never figure
Speaker 1: out is this actually a group. If it is a group,
Speaker 1: how many versions of this group are there? You know,
Speaker 1: we talked to Jimmy Howard, who was a member of
Speaker 1: Jim and I. He's an advocate for Wayne Williams and
Speaker 1: doesn't believe he was guilty. He was actually with Wayne
Speaker 1: when he got arrested, him and another young boy at
Speaker 1: the time. So it definitely appears that the group wasn't
Speaker 1: a complete farce, right, there was a group that he
Speaker 1: was constantly recruiting for makes it a much more desirable
Speaker 1: way to attract the next kid. Oh, I want to
Speaker 1: be in that group too. You know, my friend Jimmy
Speaker 1: Howard told me about this group and then you know,
Speaker 1: Jimmy said he went to school with the kid they
Speaker 1: went missing. Some of the family members say that their
Speaker 1: brother auditioned for Wayne Williams, So you know, it's um,
Speaker 1: it's it's definitely a connection there. If this is your
Speaker 1: way in to finding young kids and getting them away
Speaker 1: from their parents, you know, you don't stop it when
Speaker 1: you get your first five kids in this band, right,
Speaker 1: you still need to recruit, you still need to bring
Speaker 1: them in. So there's this extensive list of all these
Speaker 1: kids that either they found out we're in the group,
Speaker 1: or those kids told them they were auditioning for the group.
Speaker 1: So it's it was a recruitment tool, um is what
Speaker 1: it seems and what I gathered from from looking at
Speaker 1: that list, there was definitely a lot of men that
Speaker 1: the task force had talked to. A lot of those
Speaker 1: men had long rap sheets. They had a history of violence,
Speaker 1: and they had a history of being sexual predators. And
Speaker 1: it was completely disturbing to see detailed accounts of how
Speaker 1: grown men were sexually abusing kids and being incredibly violent
Speaker 1: towards those kids. And seeing that just hit me hit
Speaker 1: me differently. It told me that these kids were living
Speaker 1: in a part of town in an era where they
Speaker 1: were not only not being properly cared for, but when
Speaker 1: they were interacting with adults, it was incredibly violent and
Speaker 1: inexcusable in the way that they were being touched and
Speaker 1: manipulated sexually for a few bucks. And I can't tell
Speaker 1: you how that feels when you actually see the files
Speaker 1: in detail based on these interviews with some of the
Speaker 1: sexual predators, and they talked to everyone, but what they
Speaker 1: did to these kids and is absolutely heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: There were sus backs, no shortage of names given. We
Speaker 1: saw pictures too, There were like lineups in the files,
Speaker 1: you know, pictures that the police had taken of people
Speaker 1: that we'd never heard of and some that we had.
Speaker 1: You can understand how unbelievable it was when Wayne Williams
Speaker 1: was actually arrested, because he was kind of in there somewhere,
Speaker 1: but there were so many people in there. It does
Speaker 1: lend itself to the feeling of how can we be
Speaker 1: sure because there was no shortage of possible suspects. It's
Speaker 1: just weird to like put yourself in the same investigative
Speaker 1: seat that a detective was in forty years ago, looking
Speaker 1: at the same evidence, trying to hunt down the same
Speaker 1: killer um and trying to bring closure and justice for
Speaker 1: those same families and victims, and to be on the
Speaker 1: same path and the same track without even knowing it.
Speaker 1: And then you discovered their notes and their evidence forty
Speaker 1: years later and you're like, oh, I knew that. That's
Speaker 1: I knew it, and that's where we were going, and
Speaker 1: I just couldn't put it together. There was a lot
Speaker 1: our revelations like that. So we're looking through all these files,
Speaker 1: box by box, page by page, file folder by file folder,
Speaker 1: and it was pretty clear that we were not going
Speaker 1: to find the k files. Even with seventy thousand pages,
Speaker 1: it wasn't the complete report. And then they had a
Speaker 1: series of envelopes stacked at the end of the palette
Speaker 1: and we didn't know what it was, but we had
Speaker 1: a sneaking suspicion that was probably photographs, and so we
Speaker 1: opened them up and it was crime scene photos of
Speaker 1: the kids in back alleys in fields, use of bell pain.
Speaker 1: Meredith and I had visited one of the school sites
Speaker 1: that had been torn down right off the highway, and
Speaker 1: I that was where use of belt was was found
Speaker 1: under a floorboard in that school, and I saw the
Speaker 1: photo for myself of usef under that floorboard when they
Speaker 1: discovered him. It took to another level that I really
Speaker 1: wasn't ready for. I had never seen photos of a
Speaker 1: murdered child before, and the A p D officers said,
Speaker 1: you never get used to it. In talking about this
Speaker 1: this case, presenting this show, it's been really telling the
Speaker 1: story of the Atlanta child murders. It really brought it
Speaker 1: back home that this was something it was something deeper.
Speaker 1: It really was about these kids and to see the
Speaker 1: terrible ways that they were murdered and abandoned and treated.
Speaker 1: This visit to the Annex was incredibly transformative in my
Speaker 1: opinion of what had happened. At some point, if there's
Speaker 1: something big found, it's like, oh wow, we just figured
Speaker 1: out the attent of these murders should not have been
Speaker 1: tribated to Wayne Williams. One of the three agencies represented
Speaker 1: at that press conference is probably gonna be someone who
Speaker 1: made a mistake fourty years ago. It's either gonna be
Speaker 1: the d a's office, the Mayor's office, or the Atlanta
Speaker 1: Police Department. The fact that they're all on the same
Speaker 1: page trying to figure this out is a good sign
Speaker 1: because if they find something, someone's going to be left,
Speaker 1: you know, with the blame on that one. I hope
Speaker 1: they broaden their scope of re examination of evidence to
Speaker 1: reinvestigation of theories, because there may not be physical evidence,
Speaker 1: for example, that points to Louie Jeter's killer, but we
Speaker 1: we did speak to a friend of Charles Sanders KKK
Speaker 1: member who's now deceased, who took credit for killing Louis
Speaker 1: Jeter and potentially other victims. I'm hoping that they find
Speaker 1: some evidence that that leads them to want to look
Speaker 1: deeper and say, well, if we have this physical evidence,
Speaker 1: how do we now match that up with a theory
Speaker 1: or an eyewitness. Let's open this thing all the way
Speaker 1: up and let's start talking to people who experienced this
Speaker 1: started talking to the officers about theories that they had.
Speaker 1: They may have never got explored by the higher us
Speaker 1: because they were told to let it go to you know,
Speaker 1: this thing is over, stop stop talking about it. So yeah,
Speaker 1: that's my hope is that you know, we can take
Speaker 1: this first step and that at least to a second step,
Speaker 1: that it's not just a one step process where we're
Speaker 1: only looking at new technology looking into physical evidence. In
Speaker 1: January FBI agent John Douglas wrote the criminal Profile of
Speaker 1: the Atlanta Child Killer. The following is a conversation between
Speaker 1: Atlanta Monster host Payne Lindsay and the legendary FBI criminal
Speaker 1: profiler John Douglas. Hello, this is John. Hey John, This
Speaker 1: is Paine. Hey Paine, how are you doing? Good? Good?
Speaker 1: You finally got me on here. I know, I finally
Speaker 1: got you. Were dug in pretty deep to the Atlanta
Speaker 1: child murders case, and just seeing the work you've done
Speaker 1: and you're profiling, how would you summarize is your experience
Speaker 1: in that case? It was nineteen eighty one and we're
Speaker 1: just getting going, and the researched again in about nineteen seventy.
Speaker 1: I got back in the Quantico seventy seven. By seventy nine,
Speaker 1: we were already starting the interviews. The FBI was not
Speaker 1: embracing me, you know, at all yet. I think they
Speaker 1: were a little bit of standoffers who are afraid in
Speaker 1: case I screwed up on a case. Uh, they were
Speaker 1: prepared to send me to Butte, Montana work in cattle
Speaker 1: rustling cases. So I didn't get any bureau cases. And
Speaker 1: while this case was going on, I was doing so
Speaker 1: many other cases the bureau, and then one day calls
Speaker 1: up and they want me down there to go to
Speaker 1: Quantico and I went with another agent, Roy Hazelwood, since
Speaker 1: passed away, and it was our job to go out
Speaker 1: to the crime scenes take a look at the cases
Speaker 1: that they had. I can't remember the exact number, but
Speaker 1: even when we were down, their bodies were showing up.
Speaker 1: And then I sat down and started doing an analysis.
Speaker 1: It turned out to be extremely controversial because I said
Speaker 1: that the offender was going to be a black offender. Uh,
Speaker 1: they didn't have the term African American back then, so
Speaker 1: it would be a black offender. And it went through
Speaker 1: the whole all the specifics of the profile, the age grouping,
Speaker 1: the educational level. It's just based on things that we
Speaker 1: were beginning to see in serial murder cases. Noting that
Speaker 1: not all serial killers are textbook there are different types
Speaker 1: of serial killers. But I just started getting involved, so
Speaker 1: involved in the case and saw so many different victims.
Speaker 1: Why is it going to be a black offender in
Speaker 1: these cases as well? Pretty much with serial killers, it's
Speaker 1: the same race. It's the same race type of case.
Speaker 1: Once in a while you'll see him stepping over the
Speaker 1: lines but um, even though we did not have many
Speaker 1: black serial killers at that time, we do today. The
Speaker 1: studies that were done down there, we did little studies
Speaker 1: and the police to see if children would go with them, Uh,
Speaker 1: if they pulled into the inner city offered like five
Speaker 1: bucks to help them do some error in or something
Speaker 1: like that. Uh, these kids would do anything for five dollars. However,
Speaker 1: if it was a white person going into the area, Uh,
Speaker 1: they certainly would have been you know, observed by you know,
Speaker 1: by someone, and it was no one had observed any
Speaker 1: whites in these particular areas. You know, went through the
Speaker 1: cases and then started trying to link some of the
Speaker 1: cases together if are they all related? And this was
Speaker 1: before fiber evidence and hair evidence or anything like that,
Speaker 1: any of the forensics. Just based on behavioral linkage. We
Speaker 1: saw that there was maybe ten twelve cases that we
Speaker 1: believe we're perpetrated by. It was pretty clear cut that
Speaker 1: we could say was perpetrated by a single offender. We
Speaker 1: also saw some cases that we didn't believe we're related.
Speaker 1: For example, the two females, Latania Wilson and Angela Lanier. Uh,
Speaker 1: those two cases we felt were not in fact, Remember
Speaker 1: Angela Lanier how she was killed, and I remember a
Speaker 1: ligature around her neck, panty stuffed in her mouth that
Speaker 1: were not her panties. I think she was asphixiated, found
Speaker 1: in a wooded area, and they had a very very
Speaker 1: good suspect. They had an excellent suspect in that case.
Speaker 1: In fact, this guy was holding up his pants with
Speaker 1: a rope with similar ligature that was used in the killing.
Speaker 1: So I'm not involved in that part of the investigation.
Speaker 1: So that case we felt should not be on the list,
Speaker 1: nor should but the case of the child being abducted
Speaker 1: out of her house, and then I remember seeing we
Speaker 1: had a case of a young person who stabbed multiple
Speaker 1: times found in the yard. We didn't think that that
Speaker 1: case should have been on the list. Later on when
Speaker 1: Harren Fiber evidence came in coincidentally, it was on just
Speaker 1: those cases that we had pre selected. And then as
Speaker 1: time went on in the case, this happens typically with
Speaker 1: with some serial killers. That happened with the bt K
Speaker 1: strangler who I interviewed, happened with David Burkewitz, his son
Speaker 1: of Sam, who I interviewed. The motivation began to change
Speaker 1: because we went from bodies that were being secreted, we're
Speaker 1: finding skeletonized remains, and then all of a sudden, we're
Speaker 1: finding bodies out in open view. So we have a
Speaker 1: situation where we have an offender who is getting caught
Speaker 1: up into publicity now and there was a lot of publicity.
Speaker 1: One of the turning points and where I was a
Speaker 1: confident now that he was following the press and maybe
Speaker 1: we can do something to manipulate his behavior was when
Speaker 1: a guy calls up from Kanye's Georgia and he has
Speaker 1: a real thick, kind of redneck accident and he's calling
Speaker 1: the police saying he's killing He's using the N word.
Speaker 1: Uh of these end kids who he's killing, and I've
Speaker 1: killed him and I'm gonna kill more. And there's one
Speaker 1: out there on on Sigmund Road, and uh so the
Speaker 1: police calls up. And at that point in time, I'm
Speaker 1: back at Quantico and there's a room several agents. Is
Speaker 1: even a psychiatrist in there, Dr Park Deets, who's just
Speaker 1: kind of new, just came down from Harvard to understudy us,
Speaker 1: and he's gonna go from from where we are down
Speaker 1: to University of Virginia and says he's well known. They
Speaker 1: wanted us to listen to the tape. So they're listening
Speaker 1: to the tape, and you know they're they're believing that
Speaker 1: this is the Atlantic child killer. And so I said,
Speaker 1: I said, no, this redneck guy is not the atlant
Speaker 1: child killer. But we have to develop something. We have
Speaker 1: to identify him. What do we do? So I'm on
Speaker 1: the phone with the cops as a conference called type
Speaker 1: of thing, and I tell him what we should do is, uh,
Speaker 1: this this individual thinks we're real stupid. You know, they're
Speaker 1: we're just incompetent. And so he gave you specific instructions
Speaker 1: where to find this this body on sigmund Row where
Speaker 1: you is not going to be a body. But he's
Speaker 1: just harassing us. Let's just show him how stupid we
Speaker 1: really are. What do we do? He says, Well, all
Speaker 1: the instructions that he gave you just do the opposite.
Speaker 1: If he tells you to search the south side of
Speaker 1: the street, you searched the north side of the street. Distances,
Speaker 1: screw up the distances. And then why, he said, because
Speaker 1: he's going to call up again. I rate. And this
Speaker 1: is before the uh you know, the cell phones. We're
Speaker 1: gonna have traps and traces on the phone and you'll
Speaker 1: be able to, you know, identify this guy. So they
Speaker 1: do that and guess what, Sure enough, call comes in,
Speaker 1: your dumbasses, I told you to search a specific area.
Speaker 1: He got all screwed up, and they arrest the guy.
Speaker 1: That story and that arrest was picked up by the
Speaker 1: local papers, and then a body would be found days later.
Speaker 1: I can't remember exact time on Sigmund Road. It wasn't
Speaker 1: the area where this guy who was calling in said
Speaker 1: we should find a body. But the killer saw the
Speaker 1: article read about it, and then he kills and he
Speaker 1: brings the body and dumps it out on Sigmund Road.
Speaker 1: And so now that's in a way it's terrible for
Speaker 1: what he did, but it's it's good in a sense
Speaker 1: that we know he is following the press, so maybe
Speaker 1: we can do things to manipulate the behavior. And then
Speaker 1: on fortun and like the medical examer started talking about
Speaker 1: the victims and talking about getting hair and fiber evidence
Speaker 1: off of the bodies. So we had the discussion, and
Speaker 1: we believe that because this information came out, it shouldn't
Speaker 1: have come out that bodies would start ending up in water,
Speaker 1: and the body of water running through Atlanta was the
Speaker 1: Chattahoochee River. And then that's when the police, the FBI,
Speaker 1: the used cadets decided to stake out all the different
Speaker 1: bridges in town. And they did it for several days.
Speaker 1: They were about ready to break it off when that
Speaker 1: night they hear allowed splash in the water and then
Speaker 1: that's when they go up on the bridge and that's uh,
Speaker 1: Wayne B. Williams is up there in his vehicle. They
Speaker 1: didn't keep them there, They didn't search the vehicle. They
Speaker 1: looked in the vehicle. They could see ligatures in the
Speaker 1: back seat, some other items that could have been related
Speaker 1: to these crimes. But they meaning the Bureau of the
Speaker 1: Bureau that it just led him off, you know, which
Speaker 1: turning out to be a critical mistake. They're availing him
Speaker 1: an overt surveillance and he is back in his house
Speaker 1: where he lives with his mother and his dad, Homer,
Speaker 1: and they could see him in the backyard burning what
Speaker 1: they believe it was evidence. Later on they found out
Speaker 1: it was photographs that he was he was burning besides papers.
Speaker 1: When he started to get information back on the hair
Speaker 1: and fiber evidence, they had enough to to indie him.
Speaker 1: They bring him in for the interview of the interrogation.
Speaker 1: I was not part of that. I wish I was
Speaker 1: part of that because I believe when he came up
Speaker 1: he was vulnerable and I saw him it looked like
Speaker 1: he wanted to say something like he would, I believe,
Speaker 1: even confess at that point. He did not get a
Speaker 1: confession out of him. Then did you ever sit down
Speaker 1: with WAYN Williams in person? No, I always wanted to
Speaker 1: do it. I'm sure he's kind of tear asked with
Speaker 1: with me because well, you know, in this case, I
Speaker 1: was censured by the FBI and then received letter accommodation
Speaker 1: by the FBI. Typical in the bureau, they kicking the ass,
Speaker 1: then they pat you on the back. They kicked me
Speaker 1: in the ass because I was over are doing training
Speaker 1: for the military and came back and it was teaching,
Speaker 1: of course, to correctional group a little. I know there
Speaker 1: was media in the audience because they just made this
Speaker 1: arrest in Atlanta, and the question popped up. They said,
Speaker 1: what about this guy in Atlanta? And I said, well,
Speaker 1: if he's the one, he's going to be good for
Speaker 1: many of them. And because I said that in bureau parlance,
Speaker 1: I was making myself an FBI spokesperson and uh, I
Speaker 1: shouldn't have said that, even though it's just very very
Speaker 1: h theyue. So they kind of raked me over the
Speaker 1: coals back at Quantico and they had, you know, slapped
Speaker 1: me down and censured me. But meanwhile, months later, here
Speaker 1: comes a trial. Now they want me to go down
Speaker 1: there for the trial, uh and and provide assistance. The
Speaker 1: fascinating part of it was the trial. At times the
Speaker 1: prosecution didn't like what I was saying. For example, one day,
Speaker 1: all the experts are testifying, and the experts we have
Speaker 1: are fantastic. They get understand, they know their stuff, but
Speaker 1: I don't understand what you're saying. And if I don't
Speaker 1: understand they're saying, these jurors here from local community, they
Speaker 1: don't know what they're saying. So at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, they were back in the room conference room
Speaker 1: and they're laughing at the testimony given by the defense
Speaker 1: side on hair and fiber evidence. So they're talking about,
Speaker 1: oh do you hear him testifying about the twist of
Speaker 1: the fibers, and and oh, yeah, he's totally totally doesn't
Speaker 1: know what the hell he's talking about. And then they
Speaker 1: get to me, what do you think, John, what do
Speaker 1: you think you're losing the case. You're losing the case.
Speaker 1: What do you mean? He says. He says, that guy
Speaker 1: that they have may not know hair and fiber evidence
Speaker 1: of the science whatever, and our guys do. But I
Speaker 1: have no idea what our guys. And those guys were
Speaker 1: in the room with me, I had no idea what
Speaker 1: you're saying. You're so damn technical, You're not conveying clear
Speaker 1: enough to the jurors. So you're, in my opinion, you're losing.
Speaker 1: And so pretty much they want me to hell out
Speaker 1: of there. So I'm sent back to Quantico, but I
Speaker 1: don't go back right away. About a day later, and
Speaker 1: now we're at a point where Williams is going to
Speaker 1: be taking this stand, and uh, he initially did pretty good.
Speaker 1: But al Binder was the defense attorney. His nickname was Jaws, real,
Speaker 1: real good guy, and on this day he felt that
Speaker 1: he was doing pretty well and the jurors were kind
Speaker 1: of siding with with Williams. Maybe this guy has been
Speaker 1: wrongfully accused. I tap on the prosecutor's shoulder and it
Speaker 1: was Gordon Miller and turns around John. Yet what I says, Well,
Speaker 1: one week from today Williams is going to get sick
Speaker 1: and said, one week from today, he's gonna be feigning
Speaker 1: some type of illness. Why because it's gonna be a
Speaker 1: sympathy employ he may feel like he's losing. And they
Speaker 1: look at me like, what the hell are you talking about?
Speaker 1: So off again, go back to Quantico. John come back.
Speaker 1: So go back to Quantico. And then a good call, John,
Speaker 1: come back to Atlanta. He got sick in the courtroom.
Speaker 1: They take him to the hospital. They found out he
Speaker 1: wasn't sick. He wasn't sick at all. So then I
Speaker 1: go back and now Albino was going to bring in
Speaker 1: an expert from Arizona named Dr Michael Bayliss to testify
Speaker 1: that Wayne Williams is not the personality tight to perpetrate
Speaker 1: a crime like this. And so I'm staying at some
Speaker 1: hotel down there all by myself, eating dinner. And also
Speaker 1: I hear voices, and I said, oh my goodness, it
Speaker 1: is Mary Welcome. It's the all the attorneys, Jim Kitchens,
Speaker 1: attorney al Binder. And there's a guy over there is
Speaker 1: the African American guy. Who is this Michael Bayliss, who's
Speaker 1: probably I'm thinking he's gonna be testifying tomorrow. And I said, so,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to hide, and all of a sudden they
Speaker 1: spot me and they're looking over at me, and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, Michael Bayliss comes walking over and
Speaker 1: Dr Douglas and I didn't have my doctorate degree. And
Speaker 1: I said, no, no, no, I don't have my doctor
Speaker 1: So I'm Dr Michael Bayless and I said, yeah, I
Speaker 1: know who you are. I did a little research on you.
Speaker 1: Can I sit down here? And I really don't think
Speaker 1: it's a it's appropriate, please just for a minute. And
Speaker 1: so he sits down and and he says, uh, you
Speaker 1: said you did some background of me. What did you
Speaker 1: find out? All? I found out what your research is.
Speaker 1: I found out you did some research with antisocial personality
Speaker 1: types and you found one of the indicators like animal
Speaker 1: cruelty in the background, just like Wayne Williams had in
Speaker 1: his background, and some other characteristics and dead wedding due
Speaker 1: to emotional psychological reasons, child could be abused. And so
Speaker 1: did you laugh when you read it? No, I said,
Speaker 1: I didn't laugh. I said, but you, Dr Baylis, you'd
Speaker 1: realize that that Williams does in fact fit the profile.
Speaker 1: So he leans over the table and he says, you're right,
Speaker 1: he's a psychopath. And I said, well, I said, look,
Speaker 1: I gotta go, man, I gotta I gotta get back.
Speaker 1: So I walk out. Then Mary Welcome and the defense
Speaker 1: team calls me over, Oh John, and Mary Welcome says,
Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to join the FBI one time,
Speaker 1: and I said, I gotta go, so Bayliss. Bayliss walks
Speaker 1: me over to the door and he said, John, I
Speaker 1: really like to come back to Quantico one day to
Speaker 1: take classes from you at the FBI. And he strikes
Speaker 1: my hand and I'm holding his hands at Well, Michael,
Speaker 1: we'll see how you do tomorrow on the stand, whether
Speaker 1: or not you come back to the FBI academy. Well,
Speaker 1: the next day, guess what al bind against the courtroom,
Speaker 1: screaming and yelling that the prosecution his team are scaring
Speaker 1: off my expert witnesses. Michael Bayliss went back to Arizona.
Speaker 1: He's not gonna be testifying. It was a real big,
Speaker 1: big turning point. So now he doesn't testify, and then
Speaker 1: there's another conference where they want to know if I'm
Speaker 1: gonna be testifying. And I said, look, I said, it
Speaker 1: just depends. But if it's not me, I'll bring in
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist. If you don't like my credentials, there'll be
Speaker 1: some psychiatrists who worked with us. But then when al
Speaker 1: Binder now on the examination of Williams, and he makes
Speaker 1: him stand up, and he says, look at look at him.
Speaker 1: He holds Wayne Williams's hands. Do these look like the
Speaker 1: hands of a serial killer? And in the areas you know,
Speaker 1: pudgy Williams with soft, soft hands. At the end of
Speaker 1: the day, Now, who's gonna do Now they cross examination
Speaker 1: of Williams. That's going to be attorney Jack Mallards and
Speaker 1: Jack Malleck, Country's southern boy from down in Georgia. And
Speaker 1: we have a meeting. I said, Jack, if he can
Speaker 1: hold his hands, you should hold Williams's hand as well.
Speaker 1: And when you touch his hands, talking a low voice,
Speaker 1: you know what was it like, Wayne, when you wrapped
Speaker 1: your hands, your fingers around the victim's throats? Did you panic? Wayne?
Speaker 1: Did you ever panic? And he said no, in a
Speaker 1: real low voice, no, And then he catches himself and
Speaker 1: then starts screaming and yelling you want the real Wayne Williams. Well,
Speaker 1: here he is, and he points over to where I am.
Speaker 1: He says, I know, you've got that FBI profile over there,
Speaker 1: and you're trying to get me to fit that profile,
Speaker 1: but I'm not going to fit your profile. And everyone
Speaker 1: is a gas. The jurors are looking, you know, over
Speaker 1: the fence, and they screwed up. They probably never should
Speaker 1: let him, you know, get on the stand. So that
Speaker 1: was really that was kind of the turning point for
Speaker 1: for the you know, the trial itself and where the
Speaker 1: defense was kind of not prepared. In Atlanta, they convicted
Speaker 1: Williams of two cases, but they didn't charge him in
Speaker 1: the others. But they could show linkages even though they
Speaker 1: didn't introduce the other cases, they could show linkages to
Speaker 1: ten or twelve other cases, and the attorney's finder and kitchens.
Speaker 1: They try to argue that you've never heard of that before,
Speaker 1: but that's what they did in this In this case,
Speaker 1: here is Wayne Williams responsible for all the Atlantic child murders?
Speaker 1: Do you think no? And I said it then some
Speaker 1: people didn't like it. I remember going to the scene
Speaker 1: of one of the crimes down there and walking to
Speaker 1: the crime scene and as a detective next to me
Speaker 1: and uh, he tells me, hey, Douglas, you did this
Speaker 1: profile here and yeah, I said, I think it's a
Speaker 1: bunch of ship. And I said, well, good for you.
Speaker 1: I didn't ask to be here. If you don't like,
Speaker 1: I just soon go back to Quantico. I have a
Speaker 1: lot of cases, you know, waiting for me. A question
Speaker 1: came up to whether or not was a Ku Klux
Speaker 1: Klan type of thing, and I believe I addressed it
Speaker 1: because usually in clan type of cases, these white you
Speaker 1: hate types of groups, the crimes are very, very symbolic.
Speaker 1: There's some symbolism involved. You wouldn't be hiding the bodies.
Speaker 1: You're hanging a body, it's going to be on main street,
Speaker 1: you know, not in some wooded secluded areas. So I
Speaker 1: just never never saw, you know, other cases that we
Speaker 1: were looking at as any kind of a clan like thing.
Speaker 1: But going back to your statement, no, I did not
Speaker 1: believe and to this day, that he was responsible for
Speaker 1: all those, uh you know, all those cases. In your opinion,
Speaker 1: who else is? When you analyze the case, you break
Speaker 1: it down into different groups for motivation. Criminal enterprise as
Speaker 1: a category is there's some kind of money involved, is
Speaker 1: a drug related for example, type of thing. No, it's
Speaker 1: not that. Is it a group cause, meaning multiple people
Speaker 1: are involved. I didn't see this as as a group
Speaker 1: cause type of a murder. Look so this as an
Speaker 1: individual Is it a sexually motivated crime? There was no
Speaker 1: evidence that there was sex UH involved in these UH
Speaker 1: in these cases, but I felt it was what I
Speaker 1: felt was a personal cause, a personal cause, you know, existed.
Speaker 1: To get back to your question, Pain, I looked at
Speaker 1: the history. Every year in Atlanta, there was about a
Speaker 1: dozen murders of children before this ever happened. A lot
Speaker 1: of those cases, too, were in a personal violence cases
Speaker 1: where there they were family members involved in the UH
Speaker 1: in the deaths, you know of their of the children,
Speaker 1: and who knows, then maybe some of those cases could
Speaker 1: be attributed to Williams early on. I don't know. You
Speaker 1: have to go back to that date. What was happening
Speaker 1: was was that they were entertainers coming in from all
Speaker 1: over the world. Really, but you had Frank Sinatra, had
Speaker 1: Sammy Davis Jr. Coming in for concerts, moneies, millions of
Speaker 1: dollars were coming in. So families wanted to be on
Speaker 1: that list. They were getting money, and so for you
Speaker 1: to come up and say no, all these cases are
Speaker 1: not on the list. They're not happy. What do you
Speaker 1: think Wayne Williams motive was. I think it changed. Sometimes
Speaker 1: they'll change your motivation. I don't care how they come
Speaker 1: across an interview or interrogation, particularly interviews or research interviews
Speaker 1: I've done in prisons. Uh, they come across maybe real confident,
Speaker 1: but really deep down there's a lot of inadequacy. This
Speaker 1: guy here is a real failure. He was trying all
Speaker 1: different kind of jobs d J at a little uh
Speaker 1: Ham operator radio station. He had, his parents went bankrupt
Speaker 1: trying to support him. He really thought he was going
Speaker 1: to be developing the next Jackson five. But he just
Speaker 1: had failure. You have to failure and the crimes these
Speaker 1: are crimes of power, crimes anger retaliation or maybe wrongdoing
Speaker 1: or personal animosity towards some of the people that you
Speaker 1: know he was killing. But then what happened because of
Speaker 1: all the publicity and all the police agencies, I mean everyone,
Speaker 1: I mean the President United States was following this case
Speaker 1: and he got caught up with that, and then that's
Speaker 1: when he started with you know, the challenging and became cocky.
Speaker 1: Now you have this insignificant nobody. He'll never call himself that,
Speaker 1: but that's what he was. Became a somebody. He's got power.
Speaker 1: He can manipulate not only the victims, but he's manipulating
Speaker 1: the entire law enforcement body. All the bodies and law
Speaker 1: enforcement bodies are work on this case, and he's putting
Speaker 1: the fear of God, you know, in the community. He
Speaker 1: had a classic kind of background. He was also a
Speaker 1: police buff He got busted for impersonating a police officer.
Speaker 1: He had the police dog, which was popular at that time.
Speaker 1: You know, the shepherd living at home with with his
Speaker 1: elderly parents. They were old enough to be his grandparents.
Speaker 1: When you go interview him, but I know you've talked
Speaker 1: with him in prison. These guys they have they have
Speaker 1: an answer for everything after so many years. No matter
Speaker 1: what you ask, he'll give you a logical answer or uh,
Speaker 1: that's all that's on their plate. And he just keeps
Speaker 1: talking and talking until I forget what he's talking about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'll see guys, you know, I like that, and
Speaker 1: it's just uh, and it's hard to do. Are you
Speaker 1: doing telephonically? It's hard to do even in prison face
Speaker 1: to face after all these years, Like if I was involved,
Speaker 1: like an interview with him, He's not. He'd be crazy,
Speaker 1: uh to admit to anything. But when I do do interviews,
Speaker 1: it's different than the Mine Hunter Netflix show, give an
Speaker 1: example one. You know they'll show a tape recorder and
Speaker 1: you know, taking notes and all that did that early on,
Speaker 1: but you're dealing with people are paranoid to begin with,
Speaker 1: but not paranoid being psycholtic, just paranoid and for good
Speaker 1: reason for Williams to paranoid. In the system where he is,
Speaker 1: you can't trust anyone, can They don't trust the guards
Speaker 1: or they won't trust anyone going into any interview. So
Speaker 1: I found out that I had to go in when
Speaker 1: I would do an interview, after early mistakes that I made,
Speaker 1: go in with no notes, just trying to memorize every
Speaker 1: aspect of the case. We also developed a fifty seven
Speaker 1: page question Jennaire that would be asking the offender different questions,
Speaker 1: but most of that we filled out before the interview.
Speaker 1: Then after the interview back of the motel, we would
Speaker 1: just memorize the kind of things were interested in. Victim selection,
Speaker 1: pre offense behavior, post offense behavior, you know those types
Speaker 1: of things, and they test you, they test you to
Speaker 1: see if you really know the case. They'll throw a
Speaker 1: curve and they lie to you. They'll lie, and then
Speaker 1: you got to catch him in a lie. But you
Speaker 1: don't catch him alive by slapping him down and call
Speaker 1: him a lie. I would just laugh. I would just
Speaker 1: kind of laugh, and I would allow Williams, if I
Speaker 1: was gonna face to face or you face to face
Speaker 1: with him, is given the feeling or given the power
Speaker 1: of control the crimes or crimes of power and control.
Speaker 1: So you have to you have to let him take
Speaker 1: control and then say in that interview room, a lot
Speaker 1: of the guys I've interviewed would sit up on the
Speaker 1: back of chairs to look down at me and sit
Speaker 1: on a cardenza, or if we're both in chairs, I
Speaker 1: slipped lower and you know that they're higher, that they
Speaker 1: have the semblance of you know, of control, you know,
Speaker 1: you know over me. But so many years with him,
Speaker 1: he would not He's not going to confess to anything
Speaker 1: anything at this point because he's denied after all these years,
Speaker 1: you know, his involvement in these in these cases. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it seems like he's never gonna admit anything. And he
Speaker 1: seems like he holds onto the truth, like the small
Speaker 1: kernel of truth that he didn't kill all the kids.
Speaker 1: He knows that, and so he focuses only on that, Yes,
Speaker 1: and he's right. Then sometimes he'll throw in stuff where
Speaker 1: like he was working for the federal government, like give
Speaker 1: the impression like he was C I A or something
Speaker 1: like that, or I F B I I don't you know,
Speaker 1: like he's some intelligence kind of guy. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just what do you make of that? Just desperation. Again,
Speaker 1: he's such an inadequate loser. I mean, he has to
Speaker 1: have power and control and he's trying to give himself
Speaker 1: some self worth. That's the only reason they'll throw out,
Speaker 1: you know stuff, you know, stuff like that. Again, the
Speaker 1: crimes are manipulative, manipulation, domination, and control. He did that
Speaker 1: with the victims, He did it with the police, he
Speaker 1: did it with uh, with with society you know down
Speaker 1: there at that at that time. There was always a
Speaker 1: situation too with Wayne Williams sexuality. During the trial, they
Speaker 1: had different people testifying that, I mean really that there
Speaker 1: was a girl once a while, but really it was
Speaker 1: just he never really had There was no not a
Speaker 1: relationship with females. There was always a male type of relationships.
Speaker 1: But then even then he didn't have really a whole
Speaker 1: lot of a whole lot of friends. And then when
Speaker 1: you start hitting that age, he's just a little younger.
Speaker 1: Usually it surfaces, i should say it around the mid twenties,
Speaker 1: the mid twenties when the crimes begin. He's twenty three.
Speaker 1: Age is difficult because sometimes you deal with biological age
Speaker 1: versus emotional age, so you can miss that characteristics. But
Speaker 1: there may have been some things, may have been cases that,
Speaker 1: like I said earlier, that happened before this grouping. You
Speaker 1: know of cases here, and usually look again for the
Speaker 1: precipitating event or stress or in the background. You can
Speaker 1: make crimes like this. It's just doesn't happen all of
Speaker 1: a sudden. There's this build up and with him, and
Speaker 1: you have to show a trend perhaps of losing and
Speaker 1: and and he's trying to develop groups, and he's getting
Speaker 1: rejected rejected, and maybe pressure is coming within the family.
Speaker 1: You know, he's I want to be you want to
Speaker 1: be caught. He's just seeking for positions of of power.
Speaker 1: He's taking photographs, goes out to scenes and tries to
Speaker 1: sell the photographs to news uh, you know, outlets. But
Speaker 1: usually there's something that finally when you talk to him,
Speaker 1: what did it? And usually that's what you find in
Speaker 1: the background. More times than I'll tell the person i'm
Speaker 1: talking to, Hey, this is probably what happened to you
Speaker 1: at that particular time. When you have a bunch of cases,
Speaker 1: if you can determine which of these cases were the
Speaker 1: first crimes, the very first ones. Uh that it's important
Speaker 1: because when he perpetrated a crime, they're looking for the
Speaker 1: comfort zone, a place where they feel they can commit
Speaker 1: a crime. It's safe, it won't get caught, no interference.
Speaker 1: You'll find your most clues there. Usually it's an area
Speaker 1: where they reside, where they've been employed. Then if something happens,
Speaker 1: maybe they go back for the disposal of a child.
Speaker 1: In this case, someone was there or cop car came
Speaker 1: by just coincidentally. They then go to a second or
Speaker 1: comfort zone, and they'll stay there a while, but really
Speaker 1: they're drawn back to the first generalized area. So that's
Speaker 1: some of the things that you look for. You know,
Speaker 1: with someone like that, you also look for which probably
Speaker 1: was some of the stuff he was burning in his backyard. Uh.
Speaker 1: Is that they document They not only they take pictures
Speaker 1: of their victims had almost with exception and today now
Speaker 1: today it's easy with your cell phone. Uh. They have
Speaker 1: may have drawings of what they want to do to
Speaker 1: the victims, but probably not so much. He probably wouldn't
Speaker 1: go with the drawings. He probably go more with maybe
Speaker 1: a diary and photographs. And why because they look for victims.
Speaker 1: You know, often some guys will look for nightly the predatory.
Speaker 1: These are achievements, so they will whip out these photos
Speaker 1: of articles of clothing, even belonging to the children. Uh,
Speaker 1: and fantasize and kind of relive the experience over and
Speaker 1: over again. So when he was burning that stuff, that's
Speaker 1: a shame. I think there was some mishaps in the investigation.
Speaker 1: You know, why no search warrant? Why didn't they tying
Speaker 1: him on the bridge, um than just watching him from
Speaker 1: afar as he's in the backyard waving stuff before he
Speaker 1: burns it to the people under who are surveiling him
Speaker 1: that day in the backyard, what do you think he
Speaker 1: was burning? I think he was burning Uh, photos of
Speaker 1: the of the victims, maybe some clothing clothing of the victims.
Speaker 1: Any documentation that he may have had, like contracts between
Speaker 1: the various victims. That's what you know. That's what he
Speaker 1: was burning. Wasn't Homer with him though, wasn't wasn't his
Speaker 1: dad with him at that time with the burning. I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's been so long, I mean when they
Speaker 1: were burning stuff. Yeah, yeah, he may or may not
Speaker 1: have known. I mean he may he may not have
Speaker 1: known what the heck he was specifically burning or seeing
Speaker 1: what he was burning. Who knows what what Homer, what
Speaker 1: Homer knew, or what he may have suspected. Did you, uh,
Speaker 1: did you find anything peculiar about Wayne's relationship to his father? Yes,
Speaker 1: and uh, there were things there and I'm not I
Speaker 1: will tell you off the wreck were through or something,
Speaker 1: but I'm not gonna say. I'm not gonna say on
Speaker 1: the air. There were things. There was something in the uh,
Speaker 1: in the backgrounds of Homer, and that came up during
Speaker 1: the d A investigation, the police investigation, and but they
Speaker 1: never brought it up during the trial. H John, tell
Speaker 1: me about your new book coming out. It's called The
Speaker 1: Killer Across the Table and it consists of four different
Speaker 1: types of killers. A guy from the state of Washington,
Speaker 1: serial killer kills his friends, children, and no one knows
Speaker 1: he's the suspect. He can participates in searches. His name
Speaker 1: is Joseph Conjo and they got Donald Harvey from Cincinnati area.
Speaker 1: Over about sixteen seventeen year period, he kills between seventy
Speaker 1: and a hundred patients and a couple of different hospitals.
Speaker 1: But then you get down to South Carol Line and
Speaker 1: it's Todd Cole. Hep he was a guy. In two
Speaker 1: thousand sixteen, the police rescued Carla Brown in a storage
Speaker 1: container where she was kept a couple of months during
Speaker 1: the hot heat in the summers of South Carolina. Very
Speaker 1: interesting guy, real smart. He would kill seven people they
Speaker 1: rescued her. But I got involved after public speaking at
Speaker 1: a university down there, and the cops came up to me.
Speaker 1: Can I help him on a case where four people
Speaker 1: were killed in a motorcycle shop. What I said was
Speaker 1: in all probability after looking at your case, this is
Speaker 1: a personal cause homicide. Uh this this is a disgruntled
Speaker 1: employee or a disgruntled customer, But no probability. Just unto customer.
Speaker 1: His name is going to be probably in that in
Speaker 1: this file drawer. Unfortunately, at that time the police had
Speaker 1: that information started going through the file system. But they
Speaker 1: stopped because they began to focus on an individual who
Speaker 1: arrived at the scene that day and was the first
Speaker 1: one to find these four people having shot multiple times.
Speaker 1: So he was a suspect for years and years. Cole
Speaker 1: hep his name was in that file, and then he
Speaker 1: would go on and he would kill three more. Smart
Speaker 1: guy aged fifteen, He rips a fourteen year old girl,
Speaker 1: goes to a men's prison, not a juvenile prison, gets
Speaker 1: out fifteen years later, picks up to college degrees. Uh.
Speaker 1: He picks up a real estate license, then a broker's license,
Speaker 1: owns a real estate company. Then he picks up a
Speaker 1: private policy license. Smart guy and asking me, he wants
Speaker 1: me to tell him really what makes him ticks? So
Speaker 1: I go through that. Another interesting cases out of Trenton,
Speaker 1: New Jersey. Get real close to the family. The mother
Speaker 1: of the victim sends her daughter out to collect money,
Speaker 1: uh for the sale of a box of cookies. And
Speaker 1: here's a guy named McGowan living with his mother and grandmother.
Speaker 1: The mother's away. He lives in the basement of this
Speaker 1: bi level house. Little girl comes to the door and
Speaker 1: what's what happened here was that the pearl Board asked
Speaker 1: me to go speak with him and given evaluation. And
Speaker 1: again I'm not a psychologist, have a doctor. He was
Speaker 1: an education but I give classes into a psychologist and psychiatrist,
Speaker 1: just my experience, and so they had me go in.
Speaker 1: He was gonna get out and after um it was
Speaker 1: about a five hour interview or so. It was unbelievable.
Speaker 1: I was able to bring him back to that thirty
Speaker 1: years ago where he starts trembling, shaking. It's free it
Speaker 1: was freezing in this, uh, this several room where we
Speaker 1: were together, and he his pecks and his chests are trembling,
Speaker 1: and but he's perspiring and he's looking off and he says,
Speaker 1: when I heard the knock on the screen door, John,
Speaker 1: I knew I was going to kill her. And he
Speaker 1: goes through all all the gory details of of what
Speaker 1: he did and and I'm talking positive to him. I
Speaker 1: have no notes, no nothing again, no tape recorder. And
Speaker 1: I asked him, question, when you get out, where you
Speaker 1: going and he says in New York? And I said,
Speaker 1: man as I was raised as a kid in New
Speaker 1: York and it's expensive. And so he looks around to
Speaker 1: see if the guards were listening in on our conversation,
Speaker 1: and they weren't. And he comes up and he says, John,
Speaker 1: he whispers into my ears, is I got money? You
Speaker 1: got money from where you make a license place? And
Speaker 1: he said no. He said, when my when my mother died,
Speaker 1: I got the insurance money. When my grandmother died, got
Speaker 1: insurance money. And then sell the house. I got insurance money.
Speaker 1: And uh. And I said where's the money? And he
Speaker 1: whispers and he said, well, I put the money out
Speaker 1: of state. Why did you do that so the victims
Speaker 1: family can't get any of the money. How much money
Speaker 1: you got? Six d fifty dollars? So wow, I said,
Speaker 1: you're gonna do great when you get to New York.
Speaker 1: I pained you with that kind of money. Well, little
Speaker 1: does he know? The next day and no, I guess
Speaker 1: he does know. He just forgot who I was. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna slam dunk his ass before the parole board one
Speaker 1: of two times. And I go through all this. They
Speaker 1: just told you, I told you, uh, And they're shocked.
Speaker 1: They're shocked, and they how are we able to do it?
Speaker 1: I said, I said, well again, I went and I
Speaker 1: had no notes. I just studied the files that you
Speaker 1: provided to me police files, and um, and I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna rely on self reporting. You people rely on self reporting.
Speaker 1: You don't want to look at the crime scene fun
Speaker 1: You don't want to look at those crimes scenes of
Speaker 1: Joan Della Sandro who he sexually assaulted, and how he
Speaker 1: killed her and how he disposed of her. You don't
Speaker 1: want to. You don't do that. And because you don't
Speaker 1: do it, you don't understand the criminal mind. And then
Speaker 1: they get sometimes look at angry and they'll say, well,
Speaker 1: if we look at it, it would prejudice it would
Speaker 1: prejudice me or us. Uh, if we saw all that,
Speaker 1: and well, what are you gonna do? I'm gonna rely
Speaker 1: on the interview process. They'll tell me, and I can determine,
Speaker 1: maybe not the non verbals through my experience that you
Speaker 1: know when he's lying. And I said, well, you know,
Speaker 1: good luck, I said, because because unless you look at
Speaker 1: the material, these guys will lie to you, and they
Speaker 1: test you real real early on in the in the
Speaker 1: interview process with with them. And uh, the the crime
Speaker 1: and the crime scene is reflection of the offender. And
Speaker 1: I always say to to understand the artist, you must
Speaker 1: look at the artwork you could interview and artists, you've
Speaker 1: better look at the artwork before you talk to him.
Speaker 1: To understand the criminal. You better look at the crime
Speaker 1: before you talk to him. So how can you you know,
Speaker 1: mr psychologist, psychiatrists and border parole corrections for example, you're
Speaker 1: gonna be You're gonna be determining whether or not a rapist,
Speaker 1: for example, should be released from from prison. You know,
Speaker 1: unless you know the sexual assault, what the sexual assault entailed,
Speaker 1: what the verbal assault was, or the victim before, during,
Speaker 1: and after the crime, what the physical assault was, I
Speaker 1: mean physical how much force did he use before, during,
Speaker 1: even perhaps when he left the victim? Unless you have
Speaker 1: the verbal, sexual, physical, you have no clue. You have
Speaker 1: no idea what type of rapist dealing with. And with
Speaker 1: some of them, yes, there maybe some rehab potential, but
Speaker 1: others you can throw the key way. And there are
Speaker 1: five different rape typologies. And I try to educate them,
Speaker 1: and but it's based on you have to have that information.
Speaker 1: So so I tell them that, but then again they
Speaker 1: probably still even if they look at it, they may
Speaker 1: not know what it all means. Had one had one,
Speaker 1: uh tell me though, how he had nightmares and he
Speaker 1: was involved in one of our early research. We're going
Speaker 1: to use him as a psychologist, and he and he
Speaker 1: couldn't look at the at the pictures, even if the
Speaker 1: photographs of the crimes and get into the details. And
Speaker 1: so we we deep six to him. We got rid
Speaker 1: of that, got rid of him, you know, quick, because
Speaker 1: you have to do it work in these cases or
Speaker 1: being on Atlanta child homicides, the impact is having on families,
Speaker 1: the community. It's terrible and one of the hardest things
Speaker 1: is really dealing with the surviving victims of these types
Speaker 1: of crimes. It takes us toll. It took a toll
Speaker 1: on me, I'll tell you that much. I understand that
Speaker 1: the the Atlanta p D reached out to you, they
Speaker 1: want to know what you've got or yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: they actually um opened their doors to me and let
Speaker 1: me go with my team, uh and go through all
Speaker 1: their boxes of files. This is actually before they made
Speaker 1: a big announcement about reopening the case. It seems like,
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, they're open to discussing this. They weren't
Speaker 1: a year and a half ago when I was doing
Speaker 1: the podcast. But um, I think since then everyone's opened
Speaker 1: up a little bit and they want to, you know,
Speaker 1: bring whatever closure they can. Your podcasts is so popular
Speaker 1: and and law enforcement is saying that that social media
Speaker 1: can be very very helpful. You don't want people like
Speaker 1: running out conducting interrogations like your listeners are doing anything
Speaker 1: like that. Or but for lead value, gosh, I mean, uh,
Speaker 1: you know today it's it's fantastic and uh, you can
Speaker 1: come up with some you know, very very good, you
Speaker 1: know good leads on on cases like this, even though
Speaker 1: it's so old now, that could be people out there,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure there are people out there who they
Speaker 1: have other you know, other information, uh that could help
Speaker 1: and help with these cases. I guess they're saying that
Speaker 1: they're not saying that they don't believe he's responsible, but
Speaker 1: but I think there's they're thinking, well, let's see if
Speaker 1: did he do them all? I mean, they closed twenty
Speaker 1: nine cases. That's not the first time I've seen something
Speaker 1: like that too. They've done it. I've done it, Uh
Speaker 1: some other cases I've been involved with. Where where are
Speaker 1: they just kind of will clear the books and wipe
Speaker 1: them all off. You can link cases through victimology. There's
Speaker 1: similarities and victims. You can link cases by m O
Speaker 1: modus operandi. But modus operandi will change because it's learned
Speaker 1: behavior and if subjects make mistakes, something doesn't go right,
Speaker 1: they will modify them m O. And the other way
Speaker 1: is it's signature, is it's something unique. I mean posing
Speaker 1: a body alongside of a road, posing another case. Uh,
Speaker 1: there was torture involved in a series of cases. So
Speaker 1: I was able to testify and link the cases. Not
Speaker 1: you can't say that that this guy here in the
Speaker 1: courtroom did it. And all you're saying is whoever did it?
Speaker 1: Did these cases? In my opinion, you know did them all? Uh?
Speaker 1: And profiles just you know too, and the listeners. It's
Speaker 1: it's an investigative tool and it's not a substitute for
Speaker 1: thorough and well planned investigation. Sometimes law enforcement comes a
Speaker 1: little bit too early and want this like some magical profile. Uh.
Speaker 1: In the eighties it wasn't so much. They came for
Speaker 1: the profile because they were getting so much heat. But
Speaker 1: it wasn't a hundred percent accepted. Probably not a hundred
Speaker 1: percent accepted today. But again too, it depends who's doing
Speaker 1: the analysis. The analysis. I think my original group that
Speaker 1: I had up to the point where I retired, we're
Speaker 1: really good because they all had uh around sixteen seventeen,
Speaker 1: eighteen years in in that unit, and and we're really
Speaker 1: top notch. Had about forty two people and a dozen
Speaker 1: a dozen profile uh profiling, and it wasn't more we
Speaker 1: call them profiles, but they were us so much more
Speaker 1: than that. They because we a lot of the times
Speaker 1: you just can't do a profile, and maybe the case
Speaker 1: is not suitable to do a profile, so you may
Speaker 1: may you have to tell a police that. But maybe
Speaker 1: here's a proactive you know, you know technique we can
Speaker 1: employ it. Uh give an example. Just then I let
Speaker 1: you go, or you'll let me go. It's it's uh
Speaker 1: the when Frank Sinatra's coming to Sammy Davis Jr. They're
Speaker 1: going to come down and the concert. I've I've I
Speaker 1: believe what greatest thrill it would be for the killer
Speaker 1: two attend the conference, be in the audience. But you
Speaker 1: could have like fifty thousand people there. But what can
Speaker 1: I do? What? And I suggested it would have been great,
Speaker 1: but it was analysis paralysis and it never went through.
Speaker 1: And this is what it was. It's that I believe
Speaker 1: the guy, the killer would be a police buff Uh
Speaker 1: have a vehicle, has and so we would advertise that
Speaker 1: we need security and may get a nominal amount of
Speaker 1: money or it could be voluntary type of but I
Speaker 1: must have a have perhaps have a definitely have a
Speaker 1: vehicle because we knew the killer had a vehicle, and
Speaker 1: then to have some kind of maybe uh background and
Speaker 1: and uh law enforced more tangentially and connected to that.
Speaker 1: And what we could do is when people applied for
Speaker 1: the job, will use the analysis I developed to eliminate
Speaker 1: or put others on the front burner. And that's what
Speaker 1: uh if. It was a great idea, but it went
Speaker 1: around analysis paralysis. You know. The bureau at the time
Speaker 1: is is this is this is too much of a
Speaker 1: high risk, you know. And I thought it was fantastic,
Speaker 1: so it never was employed, uh you know, And and
Speaker 1: that is and that's some of the things I liked
Speaker 1: really developing for law enforcement is if you can't do
Speaker 1: an analysis, maybe I can come up with some kind
Speaker 1: of proactive technique to try to try to get the guy.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, sometimes it's better just to just
Speaker 1: to do it. And and if you know, rather than
Speaker 1: ask for permission, ask for for forgiveness. They say, if
Speaker 1: you screw up, just go ahead and do it rather
Speaker 1: than ask, because sometimes they just they just analyze and
Speaker 1: analyze and and I heard that would that would be
Speaker 1: a question if you ever get to interview him again,
Speaker 1: uh Pain, ask him that question. Did you have did
Speaker 1: he have a go to those concerts? I heard that
Speaker 1: he did. I heard that he did or was planning to,
Speaker 1: you know, ask him that if you ever have talked
Speaker 1: to him in the future. I'm pretty sure his dad
Speaker 1: was there because he was taking pictures. Oh really, so
Speaker 1: I would think that Wayne would also be there. Yes, interesting, Sae.
Speaker 1: This has been extremely helpful and enlightening. Oh thank you.
Speaker 1: You probably got more than you you ventured for Pain.
Speaker 1: All right, I have a good one too. Atlanta Monster
Speaker 1: is a joint production between iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works
Speaker 1: in Tenderfoot TV special thanks to Atlanta Mayor Keisha lance
Speaker 1: Bottom's Atlanta Police Department Chief of Police Erica Shields, and
Speaker 1: author and founder of the FBI Investigative Support Unit John Douglas.
Speaker 1: Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. For the
Speaker 1: latest updates, visit Atlanta Monster dot com or follow us
Speaker 1: on social media. For more podcasts. For my Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. Yea, as promised, here's
Speaker 1: an exclusive clip from the next episode of Monster Presents Insomniac.
Speaker 1: Following the November murder of his niece and her friend,
Speaker 1: Gaskin's next serious murder was a twenty year old named
Speaker 1: Martha Dix. Pee Wee had discovered she was the one
Speaker 1: who had sold his niece the drugs. Dix was attracted
Speaker 1: to pee Wee and often hung around him at his
Speaker 1: part time job at a car repair shop, but apparently
Speaker 1: pee Wee didn't feel the same attraction. He killed her
Speaker 1: with a strong dose of acid he had stolen from
Speaker 1: a photographer. He poured it into a Coca cola and
Speaker 1: she unknowingly ingested the fatal dose. The acid worked fast,
Speaker 1: and she died a relatively quick but painful death right
Speaker 1: in front of him in Another young woman who considered
Speaker 1: Gaskins a friend was twenty three year old Doreen Dempsey.
Speaker 1: Doreen was a mother of a two year old baby
Speaker 1: girl named Robin Michelle, and she was pregnant with a
Speaker 1: second child at the time. She felt comfortable enough around
Speaker 1: Peewee to accept a ride to the bus station, after all,
Speaker 1: Peewee was an old friend. Instead, Gascons drover to a
Speaker 1: secluded wooded area, raped and killed her in the back
Speaker 1: seat of his hearse, and then raped and sodomized two
Speaker 1: year old Robin Michelle before killing her too. Peewee provided
Speaker 1: a graphic description of this pair of rapes and murders
Speaker 1: in his book Final Truth, and the details are just
Speaker 1: as horrific as you might imagine. At the time, no
Speaker 1: one suspected Peewee Gaskins was capable of such sadistic killings,
Speaker 1: but word was getting around about Peewee, and there were
Speaker 1: a few people in town who knew that he would
Speaker 1: do it if the price was right. H In a
Speaker 1: year that pee Wee would later call his killingist year,
Speaker 1: Gaskins got a little careless and murdered three people whose
Speaker 1: van had broken down on the side of the highway.
Speaker 1: Gaskins suddenly found himself in need of a favor. He
Speaker 1: needed help getting rid of the trio's van, and he
Speaker 1: enlisted the help of an ex con walter neely Neeli
Speaker 1: and Gaskins went about their own criminal business, but would
Speaker 1: occasionally help out each other if they were in need
Speaker 1: of some sort of assistance disposing of stolen cars, stolen goods,
Speaker 1: and occasionally bodies. Also in nineteen a woman named Suzanne
Speaker 1: Kipper Owens hired Peewee to killer ex boyfriend, a man
Speaker 1: by the name of Silas Barnwell Gates. Yates was a
Speaker 1: wealthy farmer in Florence County, South Carolina. Gaskins and a
Speaker 1: pair of accomplices were successful in kidnapping and murdering Yates,
Speaker 1: and he collected the one thousand, five hundred dollars Susan
Speaker 1: Owens had promised him, But things went wrong soon after,
Speaker 1: and Pee Wee realized that he had to kill two
Speaker 1: additional people to cover up the Yates murder. His accomplices
Speaker 1: were twenty nine year old Diane Neely and thirty five
Speaker 1: year old Avery Howard. Diane Neely was the wife of
Speaker 1: Walter Neely, and she and Howard an ex con we're
Speaker 1: having an affair. The pair attempted to blackmail Gaskins for
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars in hush money after assisting in the
Speaker 1: abduction and murder of Silas Yates. The two were quickly
Speaker 1: killed by Gaskins after they agreed to meet Peewee at
Speaker 1: the payoff location. In the meantime, Gaskins was busy killing
Speaker 1: and torturing more coastal kills, as well as other people
Speaker 1: he knew, including a thirteen year old named Kim Gilkins
Speaker 1: who sexually rejected him. All leads in the investigation of
Speaker 1: the disappearance of Kim Gelkins pointed to Gascons, but there
Speaker 1: was nobody yet, so there was no arrest. The authorities
Speaker 1: eventually did find evidence implicating Peewee, so he was indicted
Speaker 1: for contributing to the delinquency of a miner and kept
Speaker 1: in jail until his trial. Walter Neely was also being held,
Speaker 1: but during that time he began to speak with a
Speaker 1: local preacher and they began to pray together. They prayed
Speaker 1: for forgiveness, and when Walter Neely was ready to confess
Speaker 1: his sins to God, he was also ready to speak
Speaker 1: to the authorities. Listen to Monster Presents Insomniac on Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio, or wherever you listen to podcasts.