1 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: You might recognize my voice. This is the Zodiac speaking. 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: I'm Scott Benjamin, the host of a new true crime 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,239 Speaker 1: podcast from the creators of Atlanta Monster and Monster the 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: Zodiac Killer. It's called Master Presents Insomniac. If you're tired 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: of the same old true crime stories being told and 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: retold time and time again, We'll break that pattern. In 7 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: every episode, I tell the story of a lesser known killer, 8 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: a monster that will give you nightmares. But it doesn't 9 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: stop there. I'll also tell you how these killers really 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 1: have invaded my dreams. It's raw, it's real, and there 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: are plenty of episodes to binge with more on the way. 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: Stick around after this bonus episode of Atlanta Monster for 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: an exclusive clip from the next installment If Master Presents Insomniac. 14 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: and do not necessarily represent those of I Heart Media, 17 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:17,559 Speaker 1: Stuff Media, or its employees. So I have a friend 18 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: that works in the mayor's administration. He called me the 19 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 1: morning of the press conference and just gave me the 20 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 1: heads up that this was going down, that there would 21 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,839 Speaker 1: be families there the Mayor herself, as well as police 22 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: chief and other people, and that there would be some 23 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: announcement made. When it was Donald Albright, president of Tenderfoot 24 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: TV and executive producer of Atlanta Monster, that was the 25 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: first time I heard about it, and I jumped up 26 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: and said, look, I need to be there. We need 27 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: to capture audio on this good afternoon. Then thank you 28 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: all for being here. In nineteen seventy nine, I was 29 00:01:55,280 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: nine years old. I was the daughter of a single mother, 30 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: working two jobs and back in school in the evenings. 31 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: My story was the story of many children across this city. 32 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: In the backdrop of that story, it's something that has 33 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: stayed with me my entire life. And that was the 34 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: era of Atlanta's missing and murdered children. And for those 35 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: of us who grew up in that era, in so 36 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: many ways, it shaped our childhood. It robbed us of 37 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: our innocence, and it reminded us all that evil was 38 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: real and Atlanta. Another Barday was discovering today a police 39 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: times Force headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall, murdered, 40 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: one missing. We do not know the person or persons 41 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: that are responsible. Therefore, we do not have the morning 42 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: from Tenderfoot TV and House of Forts in Atlanta like 43 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,399 Speaker 1: a lot of another reason victims in Atlanta Rogers apparently 44 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: was asphyxiated. Atlanta was unlikely to catch the killer unless 45 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: she keeps on killing. This is Atlanta monster. The mayor 46 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:26,839 Speaker 1: came out and she made a really emotional and powerful announcement. 47 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: I stand here as the sixtie of Mayor of Atlanta 48 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: now the mother of four children, ages eight through sixteen. 49 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: Their ages are reflective of the children who were killed 50 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: during my childhood. A lot has changed in Atlanta since 51 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, and a lot has changed in our 52 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: world since nineteen one, when there was a conviction for 53 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: two of these murders, the conviction of and Williams. We 54 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: now know that DNA technology is much more advanced. But 55 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: also last week, I've watched a national story that mentioned 56 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: the arrest of a man charged with two rapes and 57 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: murders based upon inputting his DNA or their DNA into 58 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: a national database. I immediately reached out two Chief Shields 59 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: to ask her what if any updated testing had we 60 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: done as it relates to the missing and murdered children. 61 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: For the mayor to do this, I think is a 62 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: is a big statement. I think it's it's genuine and 63 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: comes from a place of someone who could have been 64 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: a victim, you know, who felt that fear as a 65 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: child uniform Mayor Cosine read as well as Mayor Bottoms. 66 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: There of the age range of the children who went 67 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: missing at that time, they aren't the older politicians that were, 68 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: you know, a little more focused on moving the city 69 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: forward and passed his tragedy. They were the kids that 70 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: suffered from this tragedy. So if anyone's going to take 71 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: a look into this, it would be them, and in 72 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: this case the current mayor. Chief Shields then took the 73 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: next step and spoke with our partners at the g 74 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: b I, who agree with Chief Shields that it would 75 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: certainly be in order for us to now look once 76 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: again at evidence that the City of Atlanta has in 77 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: its possession, evidence that the g v I has in 78 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: its possession, to once again take a fresh look at 79 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: these cases and to determine once and for all, if 80 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: there is additional evidence that may be tested that may 81 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: give some peace, to the extent that peace can be 82 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: had in a situation like this, to the victims families 83 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: to let them know that we have done all that 84 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: we can do to make sure that their memories are 85 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: not forgotten, and then the truest sense of the word 86 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: to let the world know that black lives do matter. 87 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: You know, I think we should be reopening and re 88 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: examining the cases that we feel are not attributed to 89 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: Wayne and that's someone else responsible for, and also re 90 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: examining the way this was handled. I think if this 91 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: was some independent investigation that was you know, fueled by 92 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: a third party, then it wouldn't feel as gratifying the 93 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: fact that the city is stepping up. You know, they're 94 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: skeletons in the closet of the City of Atlanta, and 95 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: this is one of them. I will turn the podium 96 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: over two, Chief Erica Shields. Thank you. Eric. In May 97 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: of n A p D, Detective Bob Buffington was working 98 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: the homicide of one of the victims, Eric middle brooks 99 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: age fourteen. Detective Buffington's spotted trace fiber evidence on middlebrook 100 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: shoe and collective or further examination. This type of evidence 101 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: collection had never occurred before. This was brand new for 102 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: the Atlanta Police Department, and while some of his colleagues 103 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: respected his attention to detail, there were many who made 104 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: a mockery of his discovery. So Bob took this evidence 105 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: to a micro analyst at the Georgia Bureau of Investigation 106 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: and fortunately that he met someone there, a young fellow 107 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: by the name of Larry Peterson, who took interest in it. 108 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: This piece of evidence became crucial in the trial against 109 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: Wayne Williams. So let's fast forward forty years to today 110 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: and conceptualize all of the advancements that have been made 111 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: in science since that first carpet five rother was found. 112 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: We have an obligation to take those advancements and see 113 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: if any further analysis can be conducted on the property 114 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: and evidence that was collected four years o. The families 115 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: deserved to find closure. The Atlanta Police Department has reached 116 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: out to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. What we've asked 117 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: is that they look at the evidence that was handed 118 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: over to them forty some years ago and they see 119 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: whether any of it qualifies for further analysis, and what 120 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: we are asking of them that they report back to 121 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: us what they have that could potentially be tested, and 122 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 1: they've agreed to do this. Separately, there is evidence from 123 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: the trial that the District Attorney's office has and he's 124 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: very graciously offered to go through it and see was 125 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: there anything that was presented a trial that potentially is 126 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: eligible for testing. And lastly, the Atlanta Police Department has 127 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: numerous boxes of evidence from the trial. Now much of 128 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: it is documents and transcripts, but we already have begun 129 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: the process of going through these boxes to see there's 130 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: anything that was never tested that would not be a value. 131 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: We don't know what we'll find, but what we do 132 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: know is we have an obligation. I have an obligation 133 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: to these families to ensure that every imaginable investigative lead 134 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: was followed. I think it was a step in the 135 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: right direction because we have to start the conversation again. 136 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: Hopefully what they find will cause the d A's Office 137 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: to reopen some of these cases. But as of now, 138 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: what they're doing is looking at the evidence that already 139 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 1: has been collected. They're going to utilize the latest technology 140 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: and see if there was new testing that they could 141 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: do on any of the evidence that still exists in 142 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: a p d S custody. We know, just by researching 143 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: this case what's out there in that evidence locker? Are 144 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: those evidence lockers, those boxes from forty years ago, some 145 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 1: of those boxes that we've already seen ourselves looked through. 146 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: When the series wrapped, there was obviously a lot of 147 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: open questions things still hanging out there. And the one 148 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: thing that kept bothering me was the mentioned of files 149 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: related to the KKKS involvement. This is Jason Hooke, executive 150 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: producer of Atlanta Monster on behalf of How Stuff Works. 151 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: I went to the FBI website, We looked at stacks 152 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: and stacks and documents, and went down to most of 153 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: the local government offices, the courthouses, and no one had 154 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: any record of these KKK files. I finally landed at 155 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: the ap D, the Atlanta Police Department, and filed an 156 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: open records request and almost immediately her back from one 157 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: of the officers who was on the front lines of 158 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: the press team, and she said, we have something called 159 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: the a p D Annex which holds thousands and thousands 160 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: of files and records. It might just be in there. 161 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: She said, I'm just here to tell you there's about 162 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 1: seventy thousand pages in this archive. We have no idea 163 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 1: what's actually here. You're going to have to go through 164 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: this yourself. Reviewing those documents. At the time that we 165 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: did this was you know, probably six months ago by now. 166 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 1: Had we not reviewed them then and then this press 167 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: conference happened, I don't think we'd have access to those. 168 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: It was, you know, seventy thousand documents just boxed upon 169 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,839 Speaker 1: box of you know, a file on every single victim, 170 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: crime scene photos, slideshow presentations, sheets that were filled out 171 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: from every single phone tip that came in, who called in, 172 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: when they called in, where they called in, and like 173 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: a summary of the tip they gave. I'm Meredith Steadman, 174 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: I'm a creative producer at Tenderfoot TV. And down below 175 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: and in pages behind them it would say like how 176 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: the officer followed up on that tip. I was pretty 177 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: impressed by the amount of tips they actually followed up on. 178 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: We got a sense of how many man hours, like 179 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: I went into gatherting all this stuff. So if you're 180 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: thinking that this wasn't a thorough investigation, that they didn't 181 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: really care what was happening, that could be said at 182 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: the very very beginning, when there wasn't the attention given 183 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: to those victims, you know, because they were pouring black 184 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: and because those mothers didn't get the respect that they 185 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 1: deserved and those children didn't. But once the investigation started, 186 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: and once there was a task force, once they dedicated 187 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: man hours to this, they kept every single document. After 188 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: being in this podcast for so long and caring the 189 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: frustration from so many people, it did seem like a 190 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: lot of the officers were trying really hard to follow 191 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: up on as much as they could, and the volume 192 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: was big. These were actually original forty year old Manila 193 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: envelopes with every victim's name on them. We saw the 194 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: original crime scene quotas, we saw the picture of that 195 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: first red fiber on that tennis shoe. It was extremely 196 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: sad because it's all real. When you're sitting behind a 197 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: computer desk and you're investigating online, you're only finding what 198 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: people have access to, have scanned in and have uploaded. 199 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: So I saw some of those original pictures that I 200 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: had seen online, but there are thirty or fifty more 201 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 1: that never made it online. So you might see one 202 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: picture of a victim, but we've seen fifty and multiple 203 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: angles close ups on what the trained photographer, who you know, 204 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: is supposed to take pictures of what they see on 205 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:31,239 Speaker 1: the scene as potentially relevant. The way their clothes were positioned, 206 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: you know, whether they had shoes on or not, or 207 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: how far away the body was from the road. It 208 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: puts you right there at the crime scene. You know, 209 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: it was hard to look at forty years later and 210 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: there's nothing you can do about it, but you you 211 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: feel the connection there of being being right there and 212 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 1: when it happens. So you just imagine like seeing it 213 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: as a police officer discovering it. We heard them talk 214 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: about finding those first two bodies and then seeing the 215 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: pictures of that. It's an image that you you don't 216 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: want to see, but you also don't want to forget, 217 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: because this is a real story that you can't look 218 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: at as just a podcast, as just an old cold 219 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: case or old case that's been solved. These are real 220 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: cases with real kids that never got to grow up, 221 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: and it's just it's just extremely sad. I think the 222 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: most interesting thing that I read while going through the 223 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: files is this account about knowing Wayne Williams but knowing 224 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: him under a different name. The police or whoever had 225 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: filed this report. They had spoken to someone and I 226 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: guess they'd shown him a photo of Wayne Williams. They said, 227 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: I know that guy, but I know him under a 228 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: different name. I don't know him as Wayne Williams, and 229 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: they said he lives at this apartment with this other man. 230 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: There was another account that said, I do know that man, 231 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: but I don't know him as Wayn Williams. I know 232 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: him under a different name. He has a roommate, which 233 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: is this guy. There was an apartment that someone who 234 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: least looked very identical to Wayn Williams was living in 235 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: or renting with another male, and at that apartment it 236 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: seemed like they had younger men over for I'm not 237 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: sure what, but that's how they knew that apartment, because 238 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: they had been invited there before and they knew way 239 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: Williams under a different name. A lot of people expressed, 240 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: how could he be doing something like this in his 241 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: home with his parents, that it doesn't seem feasible, And 242 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: I thought, oh wait a second, maybe Wayne Williams had 243 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: an altar life, like a life outside of his home. 244 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: It makes you really wonder who was his alleged roommate. 245 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: A lot of people thought, you know, this can't be 246 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: a one man job. Maybe it wasn't. It was stunning 247 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: to see the kind of leads. Most of them were short, 248 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: one page reports. But it also led into some interesting 249 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: areas of focus. I found Wayne's original driver's license, a 250 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: medical record from his mother, saw Homer's report card, not Wayne's, 251 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: Homer's his dad. They were going all out to find 252 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: everything that they could about this family. One of the 253 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: things that really stuck with me were these letters sent 254 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: by Wayne to Atlanta schools to teachers, and they were 255 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: recruiting the kids in these classrooms on behalf of the 256 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: teachers to try out for Wayne's talent shows. And it 257 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: happened over and over and over again. And when you 258 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: see something like that in a typed out form with 259 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: letter head and the signature Wayne Williams at the bottom, 260 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: it just did not feel right. It felt calculated that 261 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: something was up here. They were addressed to the schools, 262 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: they were addressed to vice principles, they were addressed to teachers. 263 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: He was recruiting, recruiting kids more than you would than 264 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: just kind of that average sign that you see on 265 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: a telephone pole somewhere. I thought at about that for 266 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: days and days. It really bothered me. We talked a 267 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: lot in the podcast about Jim and I and this 268 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: group that Wayne Way was putting together. You know, he 269 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: was a talent scout trying to make the next Jackson five, 270 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: and we are always thinking like, who was in Gemini? 271 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: You know, who was in this four or five member group? 272 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: You know, we've seen pictures when he was young with 273 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: this group in the studio. One of the things that 274 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: we found they were actively investigating what Jim and I was. 275 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: Who were the members And there's a list of about 276 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: thirty names of potential Gemini group members And it was 277 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: just crazy to see that because we could never figure 278 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: out is this actually a group. If it is a group, 279 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: how many versions of this group are there? You know, 280 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: we talked to Jimmy Howard, who was a member of 281 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: Jim and I. He's an advocate for Wayne Williams and 282 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: doesn't believe he was guilty. He was actually with Wayne 283 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: when he got arrested, him and another young boy at 284 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: the time. So it definitely appears that the group wasn't 285 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: a complete farce, right, there was a group that he 286 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: was constantly recruiting for makes it a much more desirable 287 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: way to attract the next kid. Oh, I want to 288 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: be in that group too. You know, my friend Jimmy 289 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: Howard told me about this group and then you know, 290 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: Jimmy said he went to school with the kid they 291 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: went missing. Some of the family members say that their 292 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: brother auditioned for Wayne Williams, So you know, it's um, 293 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: it's it's definitely a connection there. If this is your 294 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: way in to finding young kids and getting them away 295 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: from their parents, you know, you don't stop it when 296 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: you get your first five kids in this band, right, 297 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: you still need to recruit, you still need to bring 298 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: them in. So there's this extensive list of all these 299 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: kids that either they found out we're in the group, 300 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: or those kids told them they were auditioning for the group. 301 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: So it's it was a recruitment tool, um is what 302 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 1: it seems and what I gathered from from looking at 303 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: that list, there was definitely a lot of men that 304 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: the task force had talked to. A lot of those 305 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: men had long rap sheets. They had a history of violence, 306 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: and they had a history of being sexual predators. And 307 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: it was completely disturbing to see detailed accounts of how 308 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: grown men were sexually abusing kids and being incredibly violent 309 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: towards those kids. And seeing that just hit me hit 310 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: me differently. It told me that these kids were living 311 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: in a part of town in an era where they 312 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: were not only not being properly cared for, but when 313 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: they were interacting with adults, it was incredibly violent and 314 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: inexcusable in the way that they were being touched and 315 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: manipulated sexually for a few bucks. And I can't tell 316 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: you how that feels when you actually see the files 317 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: in detail based on these interviews with some of the 318 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: sexual predators, and they talked to everyone, but what they 319 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: did to these kids and is absolutely heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking. 320 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: There were sus backs, no shortage of names given. We 321 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: saw pictures too, There were like lineups in the files, 322 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: you know, pictures that the police had taken of people 323 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: that we'd never heard of and some that we had. 324 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: You can understand how unbelievable it was when Wayne Williams 325 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: was actually arrested, because he was kind of in there somewhere, 326 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: but there were so many people in there. It does 327 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: lend itself to the feeling of how can we be 328 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: sure because there was no shortage of possible suspects. It's 329 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: just weird to like put yourself in the same investigative 330 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 1: seat that a detective was in forty years ago, looking 331 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: at the same evidence, trying to hunt down the same 332 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: killer um and trying to bring closure and justice for 333 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: those same families and victims, and to be on the 334 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: same path and the same track without even knowing it. 335 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: And then you discovered their notes and their evidence forty 336 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: years later and you're like, oh, I knew that. That's 337 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: I knew it, and that's where we were going, and 338 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 1: I just couldn't put it together. There was a lot 339 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: our revelations like that. So we're looking through all these files, 340 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: box by box, page by page, file folder by file folder, 341 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: and it was pretty clear that we were not going 342 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: to find the k files. Even with seventy thousand pages, 343 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't the complete report. And then they had a 344 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 1: series of envelopes stacked at the end of the palette 345 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: and we didn't know what it was, but we had 346 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: a sneaking suspicion that was probably photographs, and so we 347 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: opened them up and it was crime scene photos of 348 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: the kids in back alleys in fields, use of bell pain. 349 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: Meredith and I had visited one of the school sites 350 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: that had been torn down right off the highway, and 351 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 1: I that was where use of belt was was found 352 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: under a floorboard in that school, and I saw the 353 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: photo for myself of usef under that floorboard when they 354 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: discovered him. It took to another level that I really 355 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: wasn't ready for. I had never seen photos of a 356 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: murdered child before, and the A p D officers said, 357 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: you never get used to it. In talking about this 358 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: this case, presenting this show, it's been really telling the 359 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 1: story of the Atlanta child murders. It really brought it 360 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: back home that this was something it was something deeper. 361 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: It really was about these kids and to see the 362 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: terrible ways that they were murdered and abandoned and treated. 363 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: This visit to the Annex was incredibly transformative in my 364 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: opinion of what had happened. At some point, if there's 365 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: something big found, it's like, oh wow, we just figured 366 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: out the attent of these murders should not have been 367 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: tribated to Wayne Williams. One of the three agencies represented 368 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,479 Speaker 1: at that press conference is probably gonna be someone who 369 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: made a mistake fourty years ago. It's either gonna be 370 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: the d a's office, the Mayor's office, or the Atlanta 371 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: Police Department. The fact that they're all on the same 372 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 1: page trying to figure this out is a good sign 373 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: because if they find something, someone's going to be left, 374 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 1: you know, with the blame on that one. I hope 375 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: they broaden their scope of re examination of evidence to 376 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: reinvestigation of theories, because there may not be physical evidence, 377 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: for example, that points to Louie Jeter's killer, but we 378 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: we did speak to a friend of Charles Sanders KKK 379 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: member who's now deceased, who took credit for killing Louis 380 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: Jeter and potentially other victims. I'm hoping that they find 381 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: some evidence that that leads them to want to look 382 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: deeper and say, well, if we have this physical evidence, 383 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: how do we now match that up with a theory 384 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: or an eyewitness. Let's open this thing all the way 385 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: up and let's start talking to people who experienced this 386 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: started talking to the officers about theories that they had. 387 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: They may have never got explored by the higher us 388 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: because they were told to let it go to you know, 389 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: this thing is over, stop stop talking about it. So yeah, 390 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: that's my hope is that you know, we can take 391 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 1: this first step and that at least to a second step, 392 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: that it's not just a one step process where we're 393 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: only looking at new technology looking into physical evidence. In 394 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: January FBI agent John Douglas wrote the criminal Profile of 395 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: the Atlanta Child Killer. The following is a conversation between 396 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: Atlanta Monster host Payne Lindsay and the legendary FBI criminal 397 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:41,719 Speaker 1: profiler John Douglas. Hello, this is John. Hey John, This 398 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: is Paine. Hey Paine, how are you doing? Good? Good? 399 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: You finally got me on here. I know, I finally 400 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: got you. Were dug in pretty deep to the Atlanta 401 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: child murders case, and just seeing the work you've done 402 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: and you're profiling, how would you summarize is your experience 403 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: in that case? It was nineteen eighty one and we're 404 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: just getting going, and the researched again in about nineteen seventy. 405 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: I got back in the Quantico seventy seven. By seventy nine, 406 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: we were already starting the interviews. The FBI was not 407 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: embracing me, you know, at all yet. I think they 408 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: were a little bit of standoffers who are afraid in 409 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: case I screwed up on a case. Uh, they were 410 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: prepared to send me to Butte, Montana work in cattle 411 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: rustling cases. So I didn't get any bureau cases. And 412 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: while this case was going on, I was doing so 413 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: many other cases the bureau, and then one day calls 414 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: up and they want me down there to go to 415 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: Quantico and I went with another agent, Roy Hazelwood, since 416 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,719 Speaker 1: passed away, and it was our job to go out 417 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: to the crime scenes take a look at the cases 418 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: that they had. I can't remember the exact number, but 419 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 1: even when we were down, their bodies were showing up. 420 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: And then I sat down and started doing an analysis. 421 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 1: It turned out to be extremely controversial because I said 422 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: that the offender was going to be a black offender. Uh, 423 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: they didn't have the term African American back then, so 424 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: it would be a black offender. And it went through 425 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: the whole all the specifics of the profile, the age grouping, 426 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: the educational level. It's just based on things that we 427 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: were beginning to see in serial murder cases. Noting that 428 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: not all serial killers are textbook there are different types 429 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: of serial killers. But I just started getting involved, so 430 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: involved in the case and saw so many different victims. 431 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: Why is it going to be a black offender in 432 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: these cases as well? Pretty much with serial killers, it's 433 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: the same race. It's the same race type of case. 434 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: Once in a while you'll see him stepping over the 435 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: lines but um, even though we did not have many 436 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: black serial killers at that time, we do today. The 437 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: studies that were done down there, we did little studies 438 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: and the police to see if children would go with them, Uh, 439 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: if they pulled into the inner city offered like five 440 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: bucks to help them do some error in or something 441 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: like that. Uh, these kids would do anything for five dollars. However, 442 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 1: if it was a white person going into the area, Uh, 443 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: they certainly would have been you know, observed by you know, 444 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: by someone, and it was no one had observed any 445 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: whites in these particular areas. You know, went through the 446 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: cases and then started trying to link some of the 447 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: cases together if are they all related? And this was 448 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: before fiber evidence and hair evidence or anything like that, 449 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: any of the forensics. Just based on behavioral linkage. We 450 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: saw that there was maybe ten twelve cases that we 451 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: believe we're perpetrated by. It was pretty clear cut that 452 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: we could say was perpetrated by a single offender. We 453 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: also saw some cases that we didn't believe we're related. 454 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:54,239 Speaker 1: For example, the two females, Latania Wilson and Angela Lanier. Uh, 455 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,479 Speaker 1: those two cases we felt were not in fact, Remember 456 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: Angela Lanier how she was killed, and I remember a 457 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: ligature around her neck, panty stuffed in her mouth that 458 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: were not her panties. I think she was asphixiated, found 459 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: in a wooded area, and they had a very very 460 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: good suspect. They had an excellent suspect in that case. 461 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: In fact, this guy was holding up his pants with 462 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: a rope with similar ligature that was used in the killing. 463 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: So I'm not involved in that part of the investigation. 464 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: So that case we felt should not be on the list, 465 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: nor should but the case of the child being abducted 466 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: out of her house, and then I remember seeing we 467 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: had a case of a young person who stabbed multiple 468 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: times found in the yard. We didn't think that that 469 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: case should have been on the list. Later on when 470 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: Harren Fiber evidence came in coincidentally, it was on just 471 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: those cases that we had pre selected. And then as 472 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: time went on in the case, this happens typically with 473 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: with some serial killers. That happened with the bt K 474 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,719 Speaker 1: strangler who I interviewed, happened with David Burkewitz, his son 475 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: of Sam, who I interviewed. The motivation began to change 476 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: because we went from bodies that were being secreted, we're 477 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: finding skeletonized remains, and then all of a sudden, we're 478 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: finding bodies out in open view. So we have a 479 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: situation where we have an offender who is getting caught 480 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: up into publicity now and there was a lot of publicity. 481 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: One of the turning points and where I was a 482 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: confident now that he was following the press and maybe 483 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: we can do something to manipulate his behavior was when 484 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: a guy calls up from Kanye's Georgia and he has 485 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: a real thick, kind of redneck accident and he's calling 486 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: the police saying he's killing He's using the N word. 487 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: Uh of these end kids who he's killing, and I've 488 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: killed him and I'm gonna kill more. And there's one 489 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: out there on on Sigmund Road, and uh so the 490 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: police calls up. And at that point in time, I'm 491 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: back at Quantico and there's a room several agents. Is 492 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: even a psychiatrist in there, Dr Park Deets, who's just 493 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: kind of new, just came down from Harvard to understudy us, 494 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: and he's gonna go from from where we are down 495 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: to University of Virginia and says he's well known. They 496 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: wanted us to listen to the tape. So they're listening 497 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: to the tape, and you know they're they're believing that 498 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: this is the Atlantic child killer. And so I said, 499 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: I said, no, this redneck guy is not the atlant 500 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: child killer. But we have to develop something. We have 501 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: to identify him. What do we do? So I'm on 502 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: the phone with the cops as a conference called type 503 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: of thing, and I tell him what we should do is, uh, 504 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: this this individual thinks we're real stupid. You know, they're 505 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: we're just incompetent. And so he gave you specific instructions 506 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: where to find this this body on sigmund Row where 507 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: you is not going to be a body. But he's 508 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: just harassing us. Let's just show him how stupid we 509 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: really are. What do we do? He says, Well, all 510 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: the instructions that he gave you just do the opposite. 511 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: If he tells you to search the south side of 512 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: the street, you searched the north side of the street. Distances, 513 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: screw up the distances. And then why, he said, because 514 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: he's going to call up again. I rate. And this 515 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: is before the uh you know, the cell phones. We're 516 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: gonna have traps and traces on the phone and you'll 517 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: be able to, you know, identify this guy. So they 518 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: do that and guess what, Sure enough, call comes in, 519 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: your dumbasses, I told you to search a specific area. 520 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: He got all screwed up, and they arrest the guy. 521 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: That story and that arrest was picked up by the 522 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: local papers, and then a body would be found days later. 523 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: I can't remember exact time on Sigmund Road. It wasn't 524 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: the area where this guy who was calling in said 525 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: we should find a body. But the killer saw the 526 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: article read about it, and then he kills and he 527 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: brings the body and dumps it out on Sigmund Road. 528 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: And so now that's in a way it's terrible for 529 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: what he did, but it's it's good in a sense 530 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: that we know he is following the press, so maybe 531 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,479 Speaker 1: we can do things to manipulate the behavior. And then 532 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: on fortun and like the medical examer started talking about 533 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: the victims and talking about getting hair and fiber evidence 534 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: off of the bodies. So we had the discussion, and 535 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: we believe that because this information came out, it shouldn't 536 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: have come out that bodies would start ending up in water, 537 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: and the body of water running through Atlanta was the 538 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: Chattahoochee River. And then that's when the police, the FBI, 539 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: the used cadets decided to stake out all the different 540 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: bridges in town. And they did it for several days. 541 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: They were about ready to break it off when that 542 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: night they hear allowed splash in the water and then 543 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,479 Speaker 1: that's when they go up on the bridge and that's uh, 544 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: Wayne B. Williams is up there in his vehicle. They 545 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: didn't keep them there, They didn't search the vehicle. They 546 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: looked in the vehicle. They could see ligatures in the 547 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: back seat, some other items that could have been related 548 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: to these crimes. But they meaning the Bureau of the 549 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: Bureau that it just led him off, you know, which 550 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: turning out to be a critical mistake. They're availing him 551 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: an overt surveillance and he is back in his house 552 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: where he lives with his mother and his dad, Homer, 553 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: and they could see him in the backyard burning what 554 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: they believe it was evidence. Later on they found out 555 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: it was photographs that he was he was burning besides papers. 556 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: When he started to get information back on the hair 557 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,719 Speaker 1: and fiber evidence, they had enough to to indie him. 558 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: They bring him in for the interview of the interrogation. 559 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: I was not part of that. I wish I was 560 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: part of that because I believe when he came up 561 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: he was vulnerable and I saw him it looked like 562 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: he wanted to say something like he would, I believe, 563 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: even confess at that point. He did not get a 564 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: confession out of him. Then did you ever sit down 565 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: with WAYN Williams in person? No, I always wanted to 566 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: do it. I'm sure he's kind of tear asked with 567 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: with me because well, you know, in this case, I 568 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: was censured by the FBI and then received letter accommodation 569 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: by the FBI. Typical in the bureau, they kicking the ass, 570 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: then they pat you on the back. They kicked me 571 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,959 Speaker 1: in the ass because I was over are doing training 572 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: for the military and came back and it was teaching, 573 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: of course, to correctional group a little. I know there 574 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: was media in the audience because they just made this 575 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: arrest in Atlanta, and the question popped up. They said, 576 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: what about this guy in Atlanta? And I said, well, 577 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: if he's the one, he's going to be good for 578 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 1: many of them. And because I said that in bureau parlance, 579 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: I was making myself an FBI spokesperson and uh, I 580 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 1: shouldn't have said that, even though it's just very very 581 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: h theyue. So they kind of raked me over the 582 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: coals back at Quantico and they had, you know, slapped 583 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: me down and censured me. But meanwhile, months later, here 584 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,839 Speaker 1: comes a trial. Now they want me to go down 585 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: there for the trial, uh and and provide assistance. The 586 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: fascinating part of it was the trial. At times the 587 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: prosecution didn't like what I was saying. For example, one day, 588 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: all the experts are testifying, and the experts we have 589 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: are fantastic. They get understand, they know their stuff, but 590 00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: I don't understand what you're saying. And if I don't 591 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: understand they're saying, these jurors here from local community, they 592 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: don't know what they're saying. So at the end of 593 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: the day, they were back in the room conference room 594 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 1: and they're laughing at the testimony given by the defense 595 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: side on hair and fiber evidence. So they're talking about, 596 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: oh do you hear him testifying about the twist of 597 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: the fibers, and and oh, yeah, he's totally totally doesn't 598 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: know what the hell he's talking about. And then they 599 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: get to me, what do you think, John, what do 600 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: you think you're losing the case. You're losing the case. 601 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 1: What do you mean? He says. He says, that guy 602 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: that they have may not know hair and fiber evidence 603 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: of the science whatever, and our guys do. But I 604 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: have no idea what our guys. And those guys were 605 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 1: in the room with me, I had no idea what 606 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 1: you're saying. You're so damn technical, You're not conveying clear 607 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: enough to the jurors. So you're, in my opinion, you're losing. 608 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: And so pretty much they want me to hell out 609 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: of there. So I'm sent back to Quantico, but I 610 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: don't go back right away. About a day later, and 611 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: now we're at a point where Williams is going to 612 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: be taking this stand, and uh, he initially did pretty good. 613 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,919 Speaker 1: But al Binder was the defense attorney. His nickname was Jaws, real, 614 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: real good guy, and on this day he felt that 615 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: he was doing pretty well and the jurors were kind 616 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: of siding with with Williams. Maybe this guy has been 617 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: wrongfully accused. I tap on the prosecutor's shoulder and it 618 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: was Gordon Miller and turns around John. Yet what I says, Well, 619 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,879 Speaker 1: one week from today Williams is going to get sick 620 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: and said, one week from today, he's gonna be feigning 621 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: some type of illness. Why because it's gonna be a 622 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: sympathy employ he may feel like he's losing. And they 623 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: look at me like, what the hell are you talking about? 624 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: So off again, go back to Quantico. John come back. 625 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: So go back to Quantico. And then a good call, John, 626 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: come back to Atlanta. He got sick in the courtroom. 627 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: They take him to the hospital. They found out he 628 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: wasn't sick. He wasn't sick at all. So then I 629 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: go back and now Albino was going to bring in 630 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: an expert from Arizona named Dr Michael Bayliss to testify 631 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: that Wayne Williams is not the personality tight to perpetrate 632 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: a crime like this. And so I'm staying at some 633 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: hotel down there all by myself, eating dinner. And also 634 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: I hear voices, and I said, oh my goodness, it 635 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: is Mary Welcome. It's the all the attorneys, Jim Kitchens, 636 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 1: attorney al Binder. And there's a guy over there is 637 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: the African American guy. Who is this Michael Bayliss, who's 638 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: probably I'm thinking he's gonna be testifying tomorrow. And I said, so, 639 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: I'm trying to hide, and all of a sudden they 640 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 1: spot me and they're looking over at me, and then 641 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, Michael Bayliss comes walking over and 642 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: Dr Douglas and I didn't have my doctorate degree. And 643 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 1: I said, no, no, no, I don't have my doctor 644 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: So I'm Dr Michael Bayless and I said, yeah, I 645 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 1: know who you are. I did a little research on you. 646 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: Can I sit down here? And I really don't think 647 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: it's a it's appropriate, please just for a minute. And 648 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: so he sits down and and he says, uh, you 649 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: said you did some background of me. What did you 650 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: find out? All? I found out what your research is. 651 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: I found out you did some research with antisocial personality 652 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 1: types and you found one of the indicators like animal 653 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: cruelty in the background, just like Wayne Williams had in 654 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 1: his background, and some other characteristics and dead wedding due 655 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: to emotional psychological reasons, child could be abused. And so 656 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: did you laugh when you read it? No, I said, 657 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,479 Speaker 1: I didn't laugh. I said, but you, Dr Baylis, you'd 658 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: realize that that Williams does in fact fit the profile. 659 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: So he leans over the table and he says, you're right, 660 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: he's a psychopath. And I said, well, I said, look, 661 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:44,359 Speaker 1: I gotta go, man, I gotta I gotta get back. 662 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: So I walk out. Then Mary Welcome and the defense 663 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 1: team calls me over, Oh John, and Mary Welcome says, 664 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to join the FBI one time, 665 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,800 Speaker 1: and I said, I gotta go, so Bayliss. Bayliss walks 666 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 1: me over to the door and he said, John, I 667 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: really like to come back to Quantico one day to 668 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: take classes from you at the FBI. And he strikes 669 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: my hand and I'm holding his hands at Well, Michael, 670 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 1: we'll see how you do tomorrow on the stand, whether 671 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: or not you come back to the FBI academy. Well, 672 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: the next day, guess what al bind against the courtroom, 673 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: screaming and yelling that the prosecution his team are scaring 674 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,360 Speaker 1: off my expert witnesses. Michael Bayliss went back to Arizona. 675 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: He's not gonna be testifying. It was a real big, 676 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: big turning point. So now he doesn't testify, and then 677 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: there's another conference where they want to know if I'm 678 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: gonna be testifying. And I said, look, I said, it 679 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: just depends. But if it's not me, I'll bring in 680 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: a psychiatrist. If you don't like my credentials, there'll be 681 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: some psychiatrists who worked with us. But then when al 682 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: Binder now on the examination of Williams, and he makes 683 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: him stand up, and he says, look at look at him. 684 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: He holds Wayne Williams's hands. Do these look like the 685 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: hands of a serial killer? And in the areas you know, 686 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: pudgy Williams with soft, soft hands. At the end of 687 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: the day, Now, who's gonna do Now they cross examination 688 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: of Williams. That's going to be attorney Jack Mallards and 689 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 1: Jack Malleck, Country's southern boy from down in Georgia. And 690 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 1: we have a meeting. I said, Jack, if he can 691 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: hold his hands, you should hold Williams's hand as well. 692 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,720 Speaker 1: And when you touch his hands, talking a low voice, 693 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: you know what was it like, Wayne, when you wrapped 694 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,720 Speaker 1: your hands, your fingers around the victim's throats? Did you panic? Wayne? 695 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: Did you ever panic? And he said no, in a 696 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 1: real low voice, no, And then he catches himself and 697 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: then starts screaming and yelling you want the real Wayne Williams. Well, 698 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: here he is, and he points over to where I am. 699 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: He says, I know, you've got that FBI profile over there, 700 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,320 Speaker 1: and you're trying to get me to fit that profile, 701 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,720 Speaker 1: but I'm not going to fit your profile. And everyone 702 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 1: is a gas. The jurors are looking, you know, over 703 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: the fence, and they screwed up. They probably never should 704 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:54,320 Speaker 1: let him, you know, get on the stand. So that 705 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 1: was really that was kind of the turning point for 706 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 1: for the you know, the trial itself and where the 707 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,440 Speaker 1: defense was kind of not prepared. In Atlanta, they convicted 708 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: Williams of two cases, but they didn't charge him in 709 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: the others. But they could show linkages even though they 710 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 1: didn't introduce the other cases, they could show linkages to 711 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: ten or twelve other cases, and the attorney's finder and kitchens. 712 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: They try to argue that you've never heard of that before, 713 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: but that's what they did in this In this case, 714 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: here is Wayne Williams responsible for all the Atlantic child murders? 715 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: Do you think no? And I said it then some 716 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: people didn't like it. I remember going to the scene 717 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 1: of one of the crimes down there and walking to 718 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 1: the crime scene and as a detective next to me 719 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 1: and uh, he tells me, hey, Douglas, you did this 720 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: profile here and yeah, I said, I think it's a 721 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: bunch of ship. And I said, well, good for you. 722 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: I didn't ask to be here. If you don't like, 723 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: I just soon go back to Quantico. I have a 724 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,240 Speaker 1: lot of cases, you know, waiting for me. A question 725 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,760 Speaker 1: came up to whether or not was a Ku Klux 726 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: Klan type of thing, and I believe I addressed it 727 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 1: because usually in clan type of cases, these white you 728 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 1: hate types of groups, the crimes are very, very symbolic. 729 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,720 Speaker 1: There's some symbolism involved. You wouldn't be hiding the bodies. 730 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: You're hanging a body, it's going to be on main street, 731 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: you know, not in some wooded secluded areas. So I 732 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: just never never saw, you know, other cases that we 733 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: were looking at as any kind of a clan like thing. 734 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: But going back to your statement, no, I did not 735 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 1: believe and to this day, that he was responsible for 736 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 1: all those, uh you know, all those cases. In your opinion, 737 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: who else is? When you analyze the case, you break 738 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: it down into different groups for motivation. Criminal enterprise as 739 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: a category is there's some kind of money involved, is 740 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 1: a drug related for example, type of thing. No, it's 741 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: not that. Is it a group cause, meaning multiple people 742 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: are involved. I didn't see this as as a group 743 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 1: cause type of a murder. Look so this as an 744 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,759 Speaker 1: individual Is it a sexually motivated crime? There was no 745 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: evidence that there was sex UH involved in these UH 746 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: in these cases, but I felt it was what I 747 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 1: felt was a personal cause, a personal cause, you know, existed. 748 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: To get back to your question, Pain, I looked at 749 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,279 Speaker 1: the history. Every year in Atlanta, there was about a 750 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: dozen murders of children before this ever happened. A lot 751 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: of those cases, too, were in a personal violence cases 752 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: where there they were family members involved in the UH 753 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,320 Speaker 1: in the deaths, you know of their of the children, 754 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: and who knows, then maybe some of those cases could 755 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,719 Speaker 1: be attributed to Williams early on. I don't know. You 756 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: have to go back to that date. What was happening 757 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,239 Speaker 1: was was that they were entertainers coming in from all 758 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: over the world. Really, but you had Frank Sinatra, had 759 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: Sammy Davis Jr. Coming in for concerts, moneies, millions of 760 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: dollars were coming in. So families wanted to be on 761 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,800 Speaker 1: that list. They were getting money, and so for you 762 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: to come up and say no, all these cases are 763 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: not on the list. They're not happy. What do you 764 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: think Wayne Williams motive was. I think it changed. Sometimes 765 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: they'll change your motivation. I don't care how they come 766 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:03,800 Speaker 1: across an interview or interrogation, particularly interviews or research interviews 767 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,720 Speaker 1: I've done in prisons. Uh, they come across maybe real confident, 768 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 1: but really deep down there's a lot of inadequacy. This 769 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: guy here is a real failure. He was trying all 770 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: different kind of jobs d J at a little uh 771 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: Ham operator radio station. He had, his parents went bankrupt 772 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,839 Speaker 1: trying to support him. He really thought he was going 773 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,719 Speaker 1: to be developing the next Jackson five. But he just 774 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,759 Speaker 1: had failure. You have to failure and the crimes these 775 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: are crimes of power, crimes anger retaliation or maybe wrongdoing 776 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: or personal animosity towards some of the people that you 777 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: know he was killing. But then what happened because of 778 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: all the publicity and all the police agencies, I mean everyone, 779 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,200 Speaker 1: I mean the President United States was following this case 780 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,359 Speaker 1: and he got caught up with that, and then that's 781 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,280 Speaker 1: when he started with you know, the challenging and became cocky. 782 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 1: Now you have this insignificant nobody. He'll never call himself that, 783 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,360 Speaker 1: but that's what he was. Became a somebody. He's got power. 784 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: He can manipulate not only the victims, but he's manipulating 785 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,879 Speaker 1: the entire law enforcement body. All the bodies and law 786 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 1: enforcement bodies are work on this case, and he's putting 787 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,400 Speaker 1: the fear of God, you know, in the community. He 788 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,320 Speaker 1: had a classic kind of background. He was also a 789 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: police buff He got busted for impersonating a police officer. 790 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 1: He had the police dog, which was popular at that time. 791 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,800 Speaker 1: You know, the shepherd living at home with with his 792 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: elderly parents. They were old enough to be his grandparents. 793 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,040 Speaker 1: When you go interview him, but I know you've talked 794 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,960 Speaker 1: with him in prison. These guys they have they have 795 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: an answer for everything after so many years. No matter 796 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 1: what you ask, he'll give you a logical answer or uh, 797 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: that's all that's on their plate. And he just keeps 798 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,160 Speaker 1: talking and talking until I forget what he's talking about. Yeah, 799 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: and I'll see guys, you know, I like that, and 800 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,880 Speaker 1: it's just uh, and it's hard to do. Are you 801 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: doing telephonically? It's hard to do even in prison face 802 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,240 Speaker 1: to face after all these years, Like if I was involved, 803 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,840 Speaker 1: like an interview with him, He's not. He'd be crazy, 804 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 1: uh to admit to anything. But when I do do interviews, 805 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: it's different than the Mine Hunter Netflix show, give an 806 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: example one. You know they'll show a tape recorder and 807 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,719 Speaker 1: you know, taking notes and all that did that early on, 808 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 1: but you're dealing with people are paranoid to begin with, 809 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,920 Speaker 1: but not paranoid being psycholtic, just paranoid and for good 810 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,840 Speaker 1: reason for Williams to paranoid. In the system where he is, 811 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,720 Speaker 1: you can't trust anyone, can They don't trust the guards 812 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: or they won't trust anyone going into any interview. So 813 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: I found out that I had to go in when 814 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,439 Speaker 1: I would do an interview, after early mistakes that I made, 815 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 1: go in with no notes, just trying to memorize every 816 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,759 Speaker 1: aspect of the case. We also developed a fifty seven 817 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,400 Speaker 1: page question Jennaire that would be asking the offender different questions, 818 00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,360 Speaker 1: but most of that we filled out before the interview. 819 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,759 Speaker 1: Then after the interview back of the motel, we would 820 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,760 Speaker 1: just memorize the kind of things were interested in. Victim selection, 821 00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,240 Speaker 1: pre offense behavior, post offense behavior, you know those types 822 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,520 Speaker 1: of things, and they test you, they test you to 823 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:03,480 Speaker 1: see if you really know the case. They'll throw a 824 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,360 Speaker 1: curve and they lie to you. They'll lie, and then 825 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,360 Speaker 1: you got to catch him in a lie. But you 826 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 1: don't catch him alive by slapping him down and call 827 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: him a lie. I would just laugh. I would just 828 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,759 Speaker 1: kind of laugh, and I would allow Williams, if I 829 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,759 Speaker 1: was gonna face to face or you face to face 830 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,880 Speaker 1: with him, is given the feeling or given the power 831 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,320 Speaker 1: of control the crimes or crimes of power and control. 832 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 1: So you have to you have to let him take 833 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,359 Speaker 1: control and then say in that interview room, a lot 834 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 1: of the guys I've interviewed would sit up on the 835 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 1: back of chairs to look down at me and sit 836 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,800 Speaker 1: on a cardenza, or if we're both in chairs, I 837 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 1: slipped lower and you know that they're higher, that they 838 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: have the semblance of you know, of control, you know, 839 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,239 Speaker 1: you know over me. But so many years with him, 840 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:52,240 Speaker 1: he would not He's not going to confess to anything 841 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: anything at this point because he's denied after all these years, 842 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,600 Speaker 1: you know, his involvement in these in these cases. Yeah, 843 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,880 Speaker 1: it seems like he's never gonna admit anything. And he 844 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: seems like he holds onto the truth, like the small 845 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 1: kernel of truth that he didn't kill all the kids. 846 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,120 Speaker 1: He knows that, and so he focuses only on that, Yes, 847 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,920 Speaker 1: and he's right. Then sometimes he'll throw in stuff where 848 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:15,879 Speaker 1: like he was working for the federal government, like give 849 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:17,719 Speaker 1: the impression like he was C I A or something 850 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:19,560 Speaker 1: like that, or I F B I I don't you know, 851 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,399 Speaker 1: like he's some intelligence kind of guy. I mean, it's 852 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,120 Speaker 1: just what do you make of that? Just desperation. Again, 853 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 1: he's such an inadequate loser. I mean, he has to 854 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,960 Speaker 1: have power and control and he's trying to give himself 855 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,319 Speaker 1: some self worth. That's the only reason they'll throw out, 856 00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: you know stuff, you know, stuff like that. Again, the 857 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:41,960 Speaker 1: crimes are manipulative, manipulation, domination, and control. He did that 858 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,600 Speaker 1: with the victims, He did it with the police, he 859 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:48,719 Speaker 1: did it with uh, with with society you know down 860 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,840 Speaker 1: there at that at that time. There was always a 861 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,920 Speaker 1: situation too with Wayne Williams sexuality. During the trial, they 862 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,719 Speaker 1: had different people testifying that, I mean really that there 863 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 1: was a girl once a while, but really it was 864 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,239 Speaker 1: just he never really had There was no not a 865 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:06,239 Speaker 1: relationship with females. There was always a male type of relationships. 866 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: But then even then he didn't have really a whole 867 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,200 Speaker 1: lot of a whole lot of friends. And then when 868 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,399 Speaker 1: you start hitting that age, he's just a little younger. 869 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,280 Speaker 1: Usually it surfaces, i should say it around the mid twenties, 870 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,560 Speaker 1: the mid twenties when the crimes begin. He's twenty three. 871 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,719 Speaker 1: Age is difficult because sometimes you deal with biological age 872 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,520 Speaker 1: versus emotional age, so you can miss that characteristics. But 873 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,239 Speaker 1: there may have been some things, may have been cases that, 874 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,680 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, that happened before this grouping. You 875 00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,440 Speaker 1: know of cases here, and usually look again for the 876 00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,160 Speaker 1: precipitating event or stress or in the background. You can 877 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,920 Speaker 1: make crimes like this. It's just doesn't happen all of 878 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,560 Speaker 1: a sudden. There's this build up and with him, and 879 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,440 Speaker 1: you have to show a trend perhaps of losing and 880 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,520 Speaker 1: and and he's trying to develop groups, and he's getting 881 00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,880 Speaker 1: rejected rejected, and maybe pressure is coming within the family. 882 00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,320 Speaker 1: You know, he's I want to be you want to 883 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,560 Speaker 1: be caught. He's just seeking for positions of of power. 884 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,400 Speaker 1: He's taking photographs, goes out to scenes and tries to 885 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,800 Speaker 1: sell the photographs to news uh, you know, outlets. But 886 00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: usually there's something that finally when you talk to him, 887 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,920 Speaker 1: what did it? And usually that's what you find in 888 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,600 Speaker 1: the background. More times than I'll tell the person i'm 889 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,239 Speaker 1: talking to, Hey, this is probably what happened to you 890 00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:24,040 Speaker 1: at that particular time. When you have a bunch of cases, 891 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,279 Speaker 1: if you can determine which of these cases were the 892 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: first crimes, the very first ones. Uh that it's important 893 00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,920 Speaker 1: because when he perpetrated a crime, they're looking for the 894 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,279 Speaker 1: comfort zone, a place where they feel they can commit 895 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,560 Speaker 1: a crime. It's safe, it won't get caught, no interference. 896 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,680 Speaker 1: You'll find your most clues there. Usually it's an area 897 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:50,000 Speaker 1: where they reside, where they've been employed. Then if something happens, 898 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: maybe they go back for the disposal of a child. 899 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,319 Speaker 1: In this case, someone was there or cop car came 900 00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,080 Speaker 1: by just coincidentally. They then go to a second or 901 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,200 Speaker 1: comfort zone, and they'll stay there a while, but really 902 00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,480 Speaker 1: they're drawn back to the first generalized area. So that's 903 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,279 Speaker 1: some of the things that you look for. You know, 904 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,080 Speaker 1: with someone like that, you also look for which probably 905 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,880 Speaker 1: was some of the stuff he was burning in his backyard. Uh. 906 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,720 Speaker 1: Is that they document They not only they take pictures 907 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,520 Speaker 1: of their victims had almost with exception and today now 908 00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,600 Speaker 1: today it's easy with your cell phone. Uh. They have 909 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,200 Speaker 1: may have drawings of what they want to do to 910 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,920 Speaker 1: the victims, but probably not so much. He probably wouldn't 911 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:31,719 Speaker 1: go with the drawings. He probably go more with maybe 912 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:36,920 Speaker 1: a diary and photographs. And why because they look for victims. 913 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,000 Speaker 1: You know, often some guys will look for nightly the predatory. 914 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:44,120 Speaker 1: These are achievements, so they will whip out these photos 915 00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,359 Speaker 1: of articles of clothing, even belonging to the children. Uh, 916 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,160 Speaker 1: and fantasize and kind of relive the experience over and 917 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,040 Speaker 1: over again. So when he was burning that stuff, that's 918 00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,160 Speaker 1: a shame. I think there was some mishaps in the investigation. 919 00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,200 Speaker 1: You know, why no search warrant? Why didn't they tying 920 00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,000 Speaker 1: him on the bridge, um than just watching him from 921 00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,600 Speaker 1: afar as he's in the backyard waving stuff before he 922 00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,920 Speaker 1: burns it to the people under who are surveiling him 923 00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,759 Speaker 1: that day in the backyard, what do you think he 924 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,200 Speaker 1: was burning? I think he was burning Uh, photos of 925 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:21,840 Speaker 1: the of the victims, maybe some clothing clothing of the victims. 926 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:26,080 Speaker 1: Any documentation that he may have had, like contracts between 927 00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,480 Speaker 1: the various victims. That's what you know. That's what he 928 00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,320 Speaker 1: was burning. Wasn't Homer with him though, wasn't wasn't his 929 00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:33,680 Speaker 1: dad with him at that time with the burning. I 930 00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:35,799 Speaker 1: don't know, it's been so long, I mean when they 931 00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,000 Speaker 1: were burning stuff. Yeah, yeah, he may or may not 932 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:39,840 Speaker 1: have known. I mean he may he may not have 933 00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,840 Speaker 1: known what the heck he was specifically burning or seeing 934 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,080 Speaker 1: what he was burning. Who knows what what Homer, what 935 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,920 Speaker 1: Homer knew, or what he may have suspected. Did you, uh, 936 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:53,919 Speaker 1: did you find anything peculiar about Wayne's relationship to his father? Yes, 937 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:58,640 Speaker 1: and uh, there were things there and I'm not I 938 00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,000 Speaker 1: will tell you off the wreck were through or something, 939 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:03,719 Speaker 1: but I'm not gonna say. I'm not gonna say on 940 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,560 Speaker 1: the air. There were things. There was something in the uh, 941 00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,839 Speaker 1: in the backgrounds of Homer, and that came up during 942 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,040 Speaker 1: the d A investigation, the police investigation, and but they 943 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:32,640 Speaker 1: never brought it up during the trial. H John, tell 944 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:34,560 Speaker 1: me about your new book coming out. It's called The 945 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,840 Speaker 1: Killer Across the Table and it consists of four different 946 00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,600 Speaker 1: types of killers. A guy from the state of Washington, 947 00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,879 Speaker 1: serial killer kills his friends, children, and no one knows 948 00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,279 Speaker 1: he's the suspect. He can participates in searches. His name 949 00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:52,479 Speaker 1: is Joseph Conjo and they got Donald Harvey from Cincinnati area. 950 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,280 Speaker 1: Over about sixteen seventeen year period, he kills between seventy 951 00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,480 Speaker 1: and a hundred patients and a couple of different hospitals. 952 00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:00,759 Speaker 1: But then you get down to South Carol Line and 953 00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,200 Speaker 1: it's Todd Cole. Hep he was a guy. In two 954 00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:07,360 Speaker 1: thousand sixteen, the police rescued Carla Brown in a storage 955 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,160 Speaker 1: container where she was kept a couple of months during 956 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,319 Speaker 1: the hot heat in the summers of South Carolina. Very 957 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,359 Speaker 1: interesting guy, real smart. He would kill seven people they 958 00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,400 Speaker 1: rescued her. But I got involved after public speaking at 959 00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,600 Speaker 1: a university down there, and the cops came up to me. 960 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:24,759 Speaker 1: Can I help him on a case where four people 961 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,200 Speaker 1: were killed in a motorcycle shop. What I said was 962 00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,600 Speaker 1: in all probability after looking at your case, this is 963 00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:34,080 Speaker 1: a personal cause homicide. Uh this this is a disgruntled 964 00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:39,360 Speaker 1: employee or a disgruntled customer, But no probability. Just unto customer. 965 00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:41,680 Speaker 1: His name is going to be probably in that in 966 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:45,759 Speaker 1: this file drawer. Unfortunately, at that time the police had 967 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,360 Speaker 1: that information started going through the file system. But they 968 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,759 Speaker 1: stopped because they began to focus on an individual who 969 00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,200 Speaker 1: arrived at the scene that day and was the first 970 00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:58,320 Speaker 1: one to find these four people having shot multiple times. 971 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:00,719 Speaker 1: So he was a suspect for years and years. Cole 972 00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,160 Speaker 1: hep his name was in that file, and then he 973 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,120 Speaker 1: would go on and he would kill three more. Smart 974 00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,560 Speaker 1: guy aged fifteen, He rips a fourteen year old girl, 975 00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,960 Speaker 1: goes to a men's prison, not a juvenile prison, gets 976 00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:16,560 Speaker 1: out fifteen years later, picks up to college degrees. Uh. 977 00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,840 Speaker 1: He picks up a real estate license, then a broker's license, 978 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,759 Speaker 1: owns a real estate company. Then he picks up a 979 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,839 Speaker 1: private policy license. Smart guy and asking me, he wants 980 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:29,759 Speaker 1: me to tell him really what makes him ticks? So 981 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,600 Speaker 1: I go through that. Another interesting cases out of Trenton, 982 00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:37,040 Speaker 1: New Jersey. Get real close to the family. The mother 983 00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,480 Speaker 1: of the victim sends her daughter out to collect money, 984 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,840 Speaker 1: uh for the sale of a box of cookies. And 985 00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,520 Speaker 1: here's a guy named McGowan living with his mother and grandmother. 986 00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,000 Speaker 1: The mother's away. He lives in the basement of this 987 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,520 Speaker 1: bi level house. Little girl comes to the door and 988 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:56,920 Speaker 1: what's what happened here was that the pearl Board asked 989 00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:01,880 Speaker 1: me to go speak with him and given evaluation. And 990 00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,040 Speaker 1: again I'm not a psychologist, have a doctor. He was 991 00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:08,239 Speaker 1: an education but I give classes into a psychologist and psychiatrist, 992 00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,239 Speaker 1: just my experience, and so they had me go in. 993 00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:13,840 Speaker 1: He was gonna get out and after um it was 994 00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:17,000 Speaker 1: about a five hour interview or so. It was unbelievable. 995 00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,560 Speaker 1: I was able to bring him back to that thirty 996 00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:25,200 Speaker 1: years ago where he starts trembling, shaking. It's free it 997 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,360 Speaker 1: was freezing in this, uh, this several room where we 998 00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:32,920 Speaker 1: were together, and he his pecks and his chests are trembling, 999 00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,800 Speaker 1: and but he's perspiring and he's looking off and he says, 1000 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:39,080 Speaker 1: when I heard the knock on the screen door, John, 1001 00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:40,440 Speaker 1: I knew I was going to kill her. And he 1002 00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,920 Speaker 1: goes through all all the gory details of of what 1003 00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,800 Speaker 1: he did and and I'm talking positive to him. I 1004 00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,880 Speaker 1: have no notes, no nothing again, no tape recorder. And 1005 00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:54,279 Speaker 1: I asked him, question, when you get out, where you 1006 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,279 Speaker 1: going and he says in New York? And I said, 1007 00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,719 Speaker 1: man as I was raised as a kid in New 1008 00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,759 Speaker 1: York and it's expensive. And so he looks around to 1009 00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,200 Speaker 1: see if the guards were listening in on our conversation, 1010 00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,960 Speaker 1: and they weren't. And he comes up and he says, John, 1011 00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,719 Speaker 1: he whispers into my ears, is I got money? You 1012 00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,080 Speaker 1: got money from where you make a license place? And 1013 00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:15,960 Speaker 1: he said no. He said, when my when my mother died, 1014 00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,080 Speaker 1: I got the insurance money. When my grandmother died, got 1015 00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:22,880 Speaker 1: insurance money. And then sell the house. I got insurance money. 1016 00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,080 Speaker 1: And uh. And I said where's the money? And he 1017 00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:27,920 Speaker 1: whispers and he said, well, I put the money out 1018 00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,480 Speaker 1: of state. Why did you do that so the victims 1019 00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:32,800 Speaker 1: family can't get any of the money. How much money 1020 00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:37,439 Speaker 1: you got? Six d fifty dollars? So wow, I said, 1021 00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,720 Speaker 1: you're gonna do great when you get to New York. 1022 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,080 Speaker 1: I pained you with that kind of money. Well, little 1023 00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,200 Speaker 1: does he know? The next day and no, I guess 1024 00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:48,400 Speaker 1: he does know. He just forgot who I was. I'm 1025 00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:51,640 Speaker 1: gonna slam dunk his ass before the parole board one 1026 00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:54,160 Speaker 1: of two times. And I go through all this. They 1027 00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:58,320 Speaker 1: just told you, I told you, uh, And they're shocked. 1028 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,920 Speaker 1: They're shocked, and they how are we able to do it? 1029 00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,080 Speaker 1: I said, I said, well again, I went and I 1030 00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:05,200 Speaker 1: had no notes. I just studied the files that you 1031 00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:10,520 Speaker 1: provided to me police files, and um, and I'm not 1032 00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:14,280 Speaker 1: gonna rely on self reporting. You people rely on self reporting. 1033 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:16,320 Speaker 1: You don't want to look at the crime scene fun 1034 00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:18,120 Speaker 1: You don't want to look at those crimes scenes of 1035 00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:22,200 Speaker 1: Joan Della Sandro who he sexually assaulted, and how he 1036 00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,040 Speaker 1: killed her and how he disposed of her. You don't 1037 00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:27,560 Speaker 1: want to. You don't do that. And because you don't 1038 00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,440 Speaker 1: do it, you don't understand the criminal mind. And then 1039 00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:32,960 Speaker 1: they get sometimes look at angry and they'll say, well, 1040 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,640 Speaker 1: if we look at it, it would prejudice it would 1041 00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:40,560 Speaker 1: prejudice me or us. Uh, if we saw all that, 1042 00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:42,920 Speaker 1: and well, what are you gonna do? I'm gonna rely 1043 00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:46,720 Speaker 1: on the interview process. They'll tell me, and I can determine, 1044 00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:51,040 Speaker 1: maybe not the non verbals through my experience that you 1045 00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:54,000 Speaker 1: know when he's lying. And I said, well, you know, 1046 00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,520 Speaker 1: good luck, I said, because because unless you look at 1047 00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:58,760 Speaker 1: the material, these guys will lie to you, and they 1048 00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,640 Speaker 1: test you real real early on in the in the 1049 00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:08,680 Speaker 1: interview process with with them. And uh, the the crime 1050 00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,760 Speaker 1: and the crime scene is reflection of the offender. And 1051 00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,680 Speaker 1: I always say to to understand the artist, you must 1052 00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:17,960 Speaker 1: look at the artwork you could interview and artists, you've 1053 00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:19,680 Speaker 1: better look at the artwork before you talk to him. 1054 00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,320 Speaker 1: To understand the criminal. You better look at the crime 1055 00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,320 Speaker 1: before you talk to him. So how can you you know, 1056 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:30,320 Speaker 1: mr psychologist, psychiatrists and border parole corrections for example, you're 1057 00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:33,480 Speaker 1: gonna be You're gonna be determining whether or not a rapist, 1058 00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:37,240 Speaker 1: for example, should be released from from prison. You know, 1059 00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:43,680 Speaker 1: unless you know the sexual assault, what the sexual assault entailed, 1060 00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:47,040 Speaker 1: what the verbal assault was, or the victim before, during, 1061 00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:50,040 Speaker 1: and after the crime, what the physical assault was, I 1062 00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,800 Speaker 1: mean physical how much force did he use before, during, 1063 00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:56,080 Speaker 1: even perhaps when he left the victim? Unless you have 1064 00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,440 Speaker 1: the verbal, sexual, physical, you have no clue. You have 1065 00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,560 Speaker 1: no idea what type of rapist dealing with. And with 1066 01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,720 Speaker 1: some of them, yes, there maybe some rehab potential, but 1067 01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,840 Speaker 1: others you can throw the key way. And there are 1068 01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:10,720 Speaker 1: five different rape typologies. And I try to educate them, 1069 01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:14,080 Speaker 1: and but it's based on you have to have that information. 1070 01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,360 Speaker 1: So so I tell them that, but then again they 1071 01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:21,240 Speaker 1: probably still even if they look at it, they may 1072 01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:24,280 Speaker 1: not know what it all means. Had one had one, 1073 01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:26,600 Speaker 1: uh tell me though, how he had nightmares and he 1074 01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:28,640 Speaker 1: was involved in one of our early research. We're going 1075 01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,520 Speaker 1: to use him as a psychologist, and he and he 1076 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,560 Speaker 1: couldn't look at the at the pictures, even if the 1077 01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:37,920 Speaker 1: photographs of the crimes and get into the details. And 1078 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,720 Speaker 1: so we we deep six to him. We got rid 1079 01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:42,880 Speaker 1: of that, got rid of him, you know, quick, because 1080 01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:45,960 Speaker 1: you have to do it work in these cases or 1081 01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:50,680 Speaker 1: being on Atlanta child homicides, the impact is having on families, 1082 01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:53,640 Speaker 1: the community. It's terrible and one of the hardest things 1083 01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:57,000 Speaker 1: is really dealing with the surviving victims of these types 1084 01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:00,280 Speaker 1: of crimes. It takes us toll. It took a toll 1085 01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,480 Speaker 1: on me, I'll tell you that much. I understand that 1086 01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:06,560 Speaker 1: the the Atlanta p D reached out to you, they 1087 01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:08,320 Speaker 1: want to know what you've got or yeah, I mean 1088 01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:10,920 Speaker 1: they actually um opened their doors to me and let 1089 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,080 Speaker 1: me go with my team, uh and go through all 1090 01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:16,480 Speaker 1: their boxes of files. This is actually before they made 1091 01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:19,520 Speaker 1: a big announcement about reopening the case. It seems like, 1092 01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:23,240 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, they're open to discussing this. They weren't 1093 01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:24,680 Speaker 1: a year and a half ago when I was doing 1094 01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:28,080 Speaker 1: the podcast. But um, I think since then everyone's opened 1095 01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:29,600 Speaker 1: up a little bit and they want to, you know, 1096 01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:32,680 Speaker 1: bring whatever closure they can. Your podcasts is so popular 1097 01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:36,400 Speaker 1: and and law enforcement is saying that that social media 1098 01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:39,640 Speaker 1: can be very very helpful. You don't want people like 1099 01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:44,240 Speaker 1: running out conducting interrogations like your listeners are doing anything 1100 01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:48,320 Speaker 1: like that. Or but for lead value, gosh, I mean, uh, 1101 01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:53,480 Speaker 1: you know today it's it's fantastic and uh, you can 1102 01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:55,800 Speaker 1: come up with some you know, very very good, you 1103 01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,280 Speaker 1: know good leads on on cases like this, even though 1104 01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:00,800 Speaker 1: it's so old now, that could be people out there, 1105 01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,080 Speaker 1: and I'm sure there are people out there who they 1106 01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:06,360 Speaker 1: have other you know, other information, uh that could help 1107 01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,280 Speaker 1: and help with these cases. I guess they're saying that 1108 01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,240 Speaker 1: they're not saying that they don't believe he's responsible, but 1109 01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:15,720 Speaker 1: but I think there's they're thinking, well, let's see if 1110 01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:18,280 Speaker 1: did he do them all? I mean, they closed twenty 1111 01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,080 Speaker 1: nine cases. That's not the first time I've seen something 1112 01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:23,360 Speaker 1: like that too. They've done it. I've done it, Uh 1113 01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,080 Speaker 1: some other cases I've been involved with. Where where are 1114 01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:29,120 Speaker 1: they just kind of will clear the books and wipe 1115 01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:32,480 Speaker 1: them all off. You can link cases through victimology. There's 1116 01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:35,680 Speaker 1: similarities and victims. You can link cases by m O 1117 01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:40,240 Speaker 1: modus operandi. But modus operandi will change because it's learned 1118 01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,640 Speaker 1: behavior and if subjects make mistakes, something doesn't go right, 1119 01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:46,120 Speaker 1: they will modify them m O. And the other way 1120 01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,440 Speaker 1: is it's signature, is it's something unique. I mean posing 1121 01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:53,080 Speaker 1: a body alongside of a road, posing another case. Uh, 1122 01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,200 Speaker 1: there was torture involved in a series of cases. So 1123 01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,720 Speaker 1: I was able to testify and link the cases. Not 1124 01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,600 Speaker 1: you can't say that that this guy here in the 1125 01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,320 Speaker 1: courtroom did it. And all you're saying is whoever did it? 1126 01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:08,000 Speaker 1: Did these cases? In my opinion, you know did them all? Uh? 1127 01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,280 Speaker 1: And profiles just you know too, and the listeners. It's 1128 01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:13,880 Speaker 1: it's an investigative tool and it's not a substitute for 1129 01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,840 Speaker 1: thorough and well planned investigation. Sometimes law enforcement comes a 1130 01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:21,680 Speaker 1: little bit too early and want this like some magical profile. Uh. 1131 01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:24,520 Speaker 1: In the eighties it wasn't so much. They came for 1132 01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:26,640 Speaker 1: the profile because they were getting so much heat. But 1133 01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:30,919 Speaker 1: it wasn't a hundred percent accepted. Probably not a hundred 1134 01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,880 Speaker 1: percent accepted today. But again too, it depends who's doing 1135 01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:38,560 Speaker 1: the analysis. The analysis. I think my original group that 1136 01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:42,040 Speaker 1: I had up to the point where I retired, we're 1137 01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:45,480 Speaker 1: really good because they all had uh around sixteen seventeen, 1138 01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:50,480 Speaker 1: eighteen years in in that unit, and and we're really 1139 01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:53,000 Speaker 1: top notch. Had about forty two people and a dozen 1140 01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:58,120 Speaker 1: a dozen profile uh profiling, and it wasn't more we 1141 01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:00,720 Speaker 1: call them profiles, but they were us so much more 1142 01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:03,600 Speaker 1: than that. They because we a lot of the times 1143 01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:06,200 Speaker 1: you just can't do a profile, and maybe the case 1144 01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:08,640 Speaker 1: is not suitable to do a profile, so you may 1145 01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:10,880 Speaker 1: may you have to tell a police that. But maybe 1146 01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:14,360 Speaker 1: here's a proactive you know, you know technique we can 1147 01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,560 Speaker 1: employ it. Uh give an example. Just then I let 1148 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:21,120 Speaker 1: you go, or you'll let me go. It's it's uh 1149 01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:25,400 Speaker 1: the when Frank Sinatra's coming to Sammy Davis Jr. They're 1150 01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,560 Speaker 1: going to come down and the concert. I've I've I 1151 01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:32,080 Speaker 1: believe what greatest thrill it would be for the killer 1152 01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:35,960 Speaker 1: two attend the conference, be in the audience. But you 1153 01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,960 Speaker 1: could have like fifty thousand people there. But what can 1154 01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:42,240 Speaker 1: I do? What? And I suggested it would have been great, 1155 01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,320 Speaker 1: but it was analysis paralysis and it never went through. 1156 01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:47,720 Speaker 1: And this is what it was. It's that I believe 1157 01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:50,640 Speaker 1: the guy, the killer would be a police buff Uh 1158 01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:54,080 Speaker 1: have a vehicle, has and so we would advertise that 1159 01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:57,720 Speaker 1: we need security and may get a nominal amount of 1160 01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:00,920 Speaker 1: money or it could be voluntary type of but I 1161 01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:04,840 Speaker 1: must have a have perhaps have a definitely have a 1162 01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:06,960 Speaker 1: vehicle because we knew the killer had a vehicle, and 1163 01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:10,560 Speaker 1: then to have some kind of maybe uh background and 1164 01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:15,000 Speaker 1: and uh law enforced more tangentially and connected to that. 1165 01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:17,520 Speaker 1: And what we could do is when people applied for 1166 01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:21,560 Speaker 1: the job, will use the analysis I developed to eliminate 1167 01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:25,200 Speaker 1: or put others on the front burner. And that's what 1168 01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:28,560 Speaker 1: uh if. It was a great idea, but it went 1169 01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:31,880 Speaker 1: around analysis paralysis. You know. The bureau at the time 1170 01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:33,520 Speaker 1: is is this is this is too much of a 1171 01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:37,720 Speaker 1: high risk, you know. And I thought it was fantastic, 1172 01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,440 Speaker 1: so it never was employed, uh you know, And and 1173 01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:42,160 Speaker 1: that is and that's some of the things I liked 1174 01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:45,480 Speaker 1: really developing for law enforcement is if you can't do 1175 01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:47,640 Speaker 1: an analysis, maybe I can come up with some kind 1176 01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:51,280 Speaker 1: of proactive technique to try to try to get the guy. 1177 01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:54,480 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, sometimes it's better just to just 1178 01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:57,240 Speaker 1: to do it. And and if you know, rather than 1179 01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:00,080 Speaker 1: ask for permission, ask for for forgiveness. They say, if 1180 01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,080 Speaker 1: you screw up, just go ahead and do it rather 1181 01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:05,400 Speaker 1: than ask, because sometimes they just they just analyze and 1182 01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:09,360 Speaker 1: analyze and and I heard that would that would be 1183 01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:11,160 Speaker 1: a question if you ever get to interview him again, 1184 01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:14,040 Speaker 1: uh Pain, ask him that question. Did you have did 1185 01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:16,080 Speaker 1: he have a go to those concerts? I heard that 1186 01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:18,560 Speaker 1: he did. I heard that he did or was planning to, 1187 01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:20,919 Speaker 1: you know, ask him that if you ever have talked 1188 01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:23,120 Speaker 1: to him in the future. I'm pretty sure his dad 1189 01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:26,480 Speaker 1: was there because he was taking pictures. Oh really, so 1190 01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:30,200 Speaker 1: I would think that Wayne would also be there. Yes, interesting, Sae. 1191 01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:34,640 Speaker 1: This has been extremely helpful and enlightening. Oh thank you. 1192 01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:37,880 Speaker 1: You probably got more than you you ventured for Pain. 1193 01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:58,960 Speaker 1: All right, I have a good one too. Atlanta Monster 1194 01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:01,919 Speaker 1: is a joint production between iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works 1195 01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:05,880 Speaker 1: in Tenderfoot TV special thanks to Atlanta Mayor Keisha lance 1196 01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:09,680 Speaker 1: Bottom's Atlanta Police Department Chief of Police Erica Shields, and 1197 01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:13,640 Speaker 1: author and founder of the FBI Investigative Support Unit John Douglas. 1198 01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:17,440 Speaker 1: Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. For the 1199 01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:20,840 Speaker 1: latest updates, visit Atlanta Monster dot com or follow us 1200 01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,000 Speaker 1: on social media. For more podcasts. For my Heart Radio, 1201 01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:27,360 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1202 01:07:27,480 --> 01:08:08,720 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. Yea, as promised, here's 1203 01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:12,520 Speaker 1: an exclusive clip from the next episode of Monster Presents Insomniac. 1204 01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:21,080 Speaker 1: Following the November murder of his niece and her friend, 1205 01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:25,080 Speaker 1: Gaskin's next serious murder was a twenty year old named 1206 01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:28,519 Speaker 1: Martha Dix. Pee Wee had discovered she was the one 1207 01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:32,599 Speaker 1: who had sold his niece the drugs. Dix was attracted 1208 01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:34,760 Speaker 1: to pee Wee and often hung around him at his 1209 01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:38,440 Speaker 1: part time job at a car repair shop, but apparently 1210 01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:42,559 Speaker 1: pee Wee didn't feel the same attraction. He killed her 1211 01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:44,519 Speaker 1: with a strong dose of acid he had stolen from 1212 01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:48,680 Speaker 1: a photographer. He poured it into a Coca cola and 1213 01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:52,920 Speaker 1: she unknowingly ingested the fatal dose. The acid worked fast, 1214 01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:57,120 Speaker 1: and she died a relatively quick but painful death right 1215 01:08:57,160 --> 01:09:03,160 Speaker 1: in front of him in Another young woman who considered 1216 01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:06,080 Speaker 1: Gaskins a friend was twenty three year old Doreen Dempsey. 1217 01:09:07,360 --> 01:09:09,200 Speaker 1: Doreen was a mother of a two year old baby 1218 01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:12,360 Speaker 1: girl named Robin Michelle, and she was pregnant with a 1219 01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:16,400 Speaker 1: second child at the time. She felt comfortable enough around 1220 01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:19,479 Speaker 1: Peewee to accept a ride to the bus station, after all, 1221 01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:25,640 Speaker 1: Peewee was an old friend. Instead, Gascons drover to a 1222 01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:29,679 Speaker 1: secluded wooded area, raped and killed her in the back 1223 01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:33,160 Speaker 1: seat of his hearse, and then raped and sodomized two 1224 01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:38,519 Speaker 1: year old Robin Michelle before killing her too. Peewee provided 1225 01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,840 Speaker 1: a graphic description of this pair of rapes and murders 1226 01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:44,400 Speaker 1: in his book Final Truth, and the details are just 1227 01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:48,200 Speaker 1: as horrific as you might imagine. At the time, no 1228 01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:51,639 Speaker 1: one suspected Peewee Gaskins was capable of such sadistic killings, 1229 01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,680 Speaker 1: but word was getting around about Peewee, and there were 1230 01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:57,360 Speaker 1: a few people in town who knew that he would 1231 01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:03,439 Speaker 1: do it if the price was right. H In a 1232 01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:06,680 Speaker 1: year that pee Wee would later call his killingist year, 1233 01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:10,280 Speaker 1: Gaskins got a little careless and murdered three people whose 1234 01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:12,240 Speaker 1: van had broken down on the side of the highway. 1235 01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:16,560 Speaker 1: Gaskins suddenly found himself in need of a favor. He 1236 01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:19,360 Speaker 1: needed help getting rid of the trio's van, and he 1237 01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:24,679 Speaker 1: enlisted the help of an ex con walter neely Neeli 1238 01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:28,160 Speaker 1: and Gaskins went about their own criminal business, but would 1239 01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:30,120 Speaker 1: occasionally help out each other if they were in need 1240 01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:34,960 Speaker 1: of some sort of assistance disposing of stolen cars, stolen goods, 1241 01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:43,400 Speaker 1: and occasionally bodies. Also in nineteen a woman named Suzanne 1242 01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:47,920 Speaker 1: Kipper Owens hired Peewee to killer ex boyfriend, a man 1243 01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:52,360 Speaker 1: by the name of Silas Barnwell Gates. Yates was a 1244 01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:57,040 Speaker 1: wealthy farmer in Florence County, South Carolina. Gaskins and a 1245 01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:01,040 Speaker 1: pair of accomplices were successful in kidnapping and murdering Yates, 1246 01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:04,000 Speaker 1: and he collected the one thousand, five hundred dollars Susan 1247 01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,639 Speaker 1: Owens had promised him, But things went wrong soon after, 1248 01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:10,599 Speaker 1: and Pee Wee realized that he had to kill two 1249 01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:14,840 Speaker 1: additional people to cover up the Yates murder. His accomplices 1250 01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:18,120 Speaker 1: were twenty nine year old Diane Neely and thirty five 1251 01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:22,680 Speaker 1: year old Avery Howard. Diane Neely was the wife of 1252 01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:27,559 Speaker 1: Walter Neely, and she and Howard an ex con we're 1253 01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:33,439 Speaker 1: having an affair. The pair attempted to blackmail Gaskins for 1254 01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:37,360 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars in hush money after assisting in the 1255 01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:43,240 Speaker 1: abduction and murder of Silas Yates. The two were quickly 1256 01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:46,320 Speaker 1: killed by Gaskins after they agreed to meet Peewee at 1257 01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:52,280 Speaker 1: the payoff location. In the meantime, Gaskins was busy killing 1258 01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:56,160 Speaker 1: and torturing more coastal kills, as well as other people 1259 01:11:56,200 --> 01:12:00,599 Speaker 1: he knew, including a thirteen year old named Kim Gilkins 1260 01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:06,360 Speaker 1: who sexually rejected him. All leads in the investigation of 1261 01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:10,880 Speaker 1: the disappearance of Kim Gelkins pointed to Gascons, but there 1262 01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:15,920 Speaker 1: was nobody yet, so there was no arrest. The authorities 1263 01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:20,400 Speaker 1: eventually did find evidence implicating Peewee, so he was indicted 1264 01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:23,760 Speaker 1: for contributing to the delinquency of a miner and kept 1265 01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:29,120 Speaker 1: in jail until his trial. Walter Neely was also being held, 1266 01:12:30,160 --> 01:12:32,439 Speaker 1: but during that time he began to speak with a 1267 01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:37,360 Speaker 1: local preacher and they began to pray together. They prayed 1268 01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:41,000 Speaker 1: for forgiveness, and when Walter Neely was ready to confess 1269 01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:43,880 Speaker 1: his sins to God, he was also ready to speak 1270 01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:58,800 Speaker 1: to the authorities. Listen to Monster Presents Insomniac on Apple Podcasts, 1271 01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,160 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio, or wherever you listen to podcasts.