Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to woka F Daily with
Speaker 1: me your girl, Danielle Moody recording from the Bunker. Folks,
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to welcome back to woke F Daily
Speaker 1: Amara Jones, who is the host of the podcast trans Lash.
Speaker 1: And you know, during this Pride Month where we on
Speaker 1: woke f or celebrating Pride as a riot, talking with activists,
Speaker 1: leaders and just folks about how we are comprehending this
Speaker 1: moment of a considerable backslide in acceptance in this country,
Speaker 1: not just for LGBTQ people in general, but for trans
Speaker 1: people specifically. And in my conversation with Amra, what she
Speaker 1: offered for me, which was very eye opening, is that
Speaker 1: she said, Danielle, it isn't just over three hundred anti
Speaker 1: LGBTQ bills that we're seeing across the country. It is
Speaker 1: specifically anti trans bills criminalizing trans people in some places,
Speaker 1: disallowing them from being able to access healthcare until the
Speaker 1: age of twenty one, targeting trans youth right and their
Speaker 1: families for helping them to get the kind of medical
Speaker 1: care that they need in order to live full and
Speaker 1: complete lives. And you know, I've been thinking about this
Speaker 1: a lot, and what is the impetus behind this evil
Speaker 1: that we are seeing, which you know, in some ways
Speaker 1: what is happening in America feels like you're watching a
Speaker 1: horror movie from the outside right and then recognizing that no, no,
Speaker 1: this doesn't change. She doesn't go away after two hours.
Speaker 1: That feeling of anxiety of fear sticks with us. And
Speaker 1: what is at the core of it. It is the
Speaker 1: fact that white supremacy is also steeped in patriarchy, and
Speaker 1: those two things in combination with themselves at its core
Speaker 1: or about control. It is about control and it is
Speaker 1: about oppression. When we talk about patriarchy, we could talk
Speaker 1: about control of women and people who occupy those female
Speaker 1: bodies and how sis men in particular are threatened right
Speaker 1: by women who are powerful. And what do I mean
Speaker 1: by powerful, I mean understand their power, their worth right.
Speaker 1: What always gets me, you know, when I talk about
Speaker 1: the fifty two and fifty six percent of white women
Speaker 1: that voted for Donald Trump, what gets me about it
Speaker 1: is their own submission to white siss hetero men and
Speaker 1: the belief that they don't have power and that the
Speaker 1: righted order of things, as is their interpretation of the
Speaker 1: Bible is that men are the heads of households, and
Speaker 1: men are the ones with these guns that are saying,
Speaker 1: we're protecting our families, you're protecting your very fragile egos.
Speaker 1: But what is the connection between the assault on trans
Speaker 1: identity and that of everything else we're seeing unfold Well,
Speaker 1: Amar and I will get into this conversation, but it
Speaker 1: is trans people represent the absolute truth, the truth that
Speaker 1: no one else gets to define you for you, right,
Speaker 1: no one else gets to assume place their beliefs on
Speaker 1: your body, on your spirit, on yourself. And so by
Speaker 1: virtue of trans people living right, their lives out loud,
Speaker 1: unapologetically and dare demanding for equity and justice, They as
Speaker 1: people pose an absolute affront to the white supremist patriarchal
Speaker 1: structure right, because in that structure they are telling you
Speaker 1: who matters, where you can be, what you can do,
Speaker 1: how they can control your body, how they can control
Speaker 1: your lives, your money, your existence, all of these things.
Speaker 1: And trans people who are so courageous in and of
Speaker 1: themselves because they push back against gendered stereotypes, against the
Speaker 1: idea that we occupy a binary place, and they represent
Speaker 1: expansion right, allowing and not even allowing. Allowing is not
Speaker 1: the right word, but demanding of us to really think
Speaker 1: about what we know to be true and whose truth
Speaker 1: that is. We are taught from birth, from birth about gender.
Speaker 1: You know, it used to be the pink newborn outfit
Speaker 1: and the blue newborn outfit. You walk down and I
Speaker 1: use this all the time, and maybe it's changed over
Speaker 1: the years, but I would go into targets and walmarts,
Speaker 1: and not walmarts because you know my politics, but targetate
Speaker 1: that better. But go into these places to go and
Speaker 1: buy toys for kids, and it's like, you can't just
Speaker 1: buy a fucking toy. You got the blue toys over
Speaker 1: here with the primary colors which are supposed to be
Speaker 1: for boys, with the trucks and the science and this,
Speaker 1: that and the other thing, and then you have even
Speaker 1: the fucking legos were turned into pink and pastels for girls.
Speaker 1: You're supposed to be this way, You're supposed to be
Speaker 1: this way. We create these lines and the question is
Speaker 1: why for whose benefit? Right? And the thing that I
Speaker 1: keep like pondering as we are just seeing the world
Speaker 1: be turned upside down is who was this supposed to
Speaker 1: help right? These gendered forces, this binary Who is this
Speaker 1: created for and it was created for men, for six
Speaker 1: gendered hetero white men, to remain on top of every
Speaker 1: food chain, of every pyramid of everything, to perpetuate the
Speaker 1: lie right that women are weak, to perpetuate the lie
Speaker 1: that there are only two genders, to perpetuate control in
Speaker 1: our society and to hold that control. And so the
Speaker 1: reason why these very fragile white sis men hate trans
Speaker 1: people so very much is because they refuse to comply
Speaker 1: with the bullshit we have all been fed and instead
Speaker 1: choose to live their lives and their truth. So how
Speaker 1: is it that if somebody is telling you this is
Speaker 1: who I am and to respect that your audacity, your
Speaker 1: response would be no, you don't deserve to exist in
Speaker 1: the way that you choose to exist. Just think about
Speaker 1: how fucking insane of a thought that is. Like when
Speaker 1: somebody says to me or hear people say, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't get the trans thing. I don't understand, and
Speaker 1: I'm using air quotes I don't understand. It's just like,
Speaker 1: what is it that is so hard for you to understand?
Speaker 1: Everyone's existence isn't made for your comfort, and the only
Speaker 1: thing that you have to understand is what the fuck
Speaker 1: is coming out of somebody else's mouth when they say
Speaker 1: who they are and how to treat them, and fucking
Speaker 1: model that for you. The only thing that you should
Speaker 1: be doing is saying, Okay, I got it. I don't
Speaker 1: understand why it's so difficult to treat people with respect
Speaker 1: and dignity. But what I realize for Republicans, for these
Speaker 1: white evangelical Christians, is that they don't dignify anybody's existence
Speaker 1: but their own, not even that of their fucking you know,
Speaker 1: straight white cis head or wives. They don't respect them,
Speaker 1: their choices, their ability to control their own bodies, their minds,
Speaker 1: curriculum because it's a majority of white women that are
Speaker 1: teaching kids in the classrooms. So we don't choose you,
Speaker 1: We don't trust you to be able to know what's
Speaker 1: right for your own students, but we're certainly going to
Speaker 1: give you a gun these days in these states and
Speaker 1: say go off, be a warrior. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: you're a week I just like I feel insane when
Speaker 1: you unpack all of the fucking mixed messages that are presented.
Speaker 1: And so in the conversation that I have with a
Speaker 1: Mara today, we get into a lot of things and
Speaker 1: also talk about our democracy and the illusion of safety.
Speaker 1: So I hope that you enjoy this conversation. Coming up next,
Speaker 1: let me know in the comment section what you think
Speaker 1: about the myriad of anti trans bills and if you're
Speaker 1: paying attention to them, and if not, why aren't you
Speaker 1: paying attention to them, because let me tell you something
Speaker 1: that that is It is this community that is the
Speaker 1: low hanging fruit, but they come in for everybody else
Speaker 1: as well. So coming up next my conversation with Amara
Speaker 1: Jones from Translash. Indisputable with Doctor Rashai Ricci is one
Speaker 1: of the latest shows on the TYT network and also
Speaker 1: the fastest growing news show in America. On his show,
Speaker 1: Doctor Ricci plays no games regarding policy, delivering a heavy
Speaker 1: dose a fact based truth and penetrating analysis on all
Speaker 1: the top news stories focusing on racism, criminal and social justice, politics,
Speaker 1: police brutality, Karens and much more. Listeners can also expect
Speaker 1: interviews with fascinating guests, political leaders, commentators, and even biery
Speaker 1: debates with conservatives on a wide range of policy topics
Speaker 1: in the Bullpen. It is an indisputable fact that you
Speaker 1: will love this show. Listen to Indisputable with Doctor rashad
Speaker 1: Ricci on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: If you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe
Speaker 1: so you never miss a new episode. Hey, I'm David
Speaker 1: Plots of Slaves Political Gabfest. As another election season accelerates,
Speaker 1: it can be tricky to sort through all the noise
Speaker 1: and the news. Each week on the Gapfest, John Dickerson,
Speaker 1: Emily Bathlon and I decipher the headlines, break down the races,
Speaker 1: and tell you what issues really matter. We do not
Speaker 1: always agree. We definitely do not always agree, but we
Speaker 1: always deliver thoughtful debate and we always have a good time.
Speaker 1: So subscribe to Slates Political Gapfest, new episodes every Thursday. Folks.
Speaker 1: I am very happy to welcome back to woke a
Speaker 1: f for another wonderful conversation. I'm sure. Amara Jones, who
Speaker 1: is the host of trans Lash, a podcast that is
Speaker 1: dedicated to talking about issues that are facing the trans community.
Speaker 1: Happy Pride to you. We start We'll start with so
Speaker 1: we'll start with something good, which is happy pride? Amara,
Speaker 1: What does what does pride mean to you now? In
Speaker 1: the kind of climate that we're in. Pride began as
Speaker 1: a riot, it moved into kind of a capitalist celebration
Speaker 1: of stuff. And now we're at a time when we
Speaker 1: are having to fight for our lives in our existence again.
Speaker 1: So what does pride mean to you this year? Well,
Speaker 1: I always tell people, actually give the same answer every year,
Speaker 1: which is that pride is actually a renewal of vows,
Speaker 1: and it is a renewal of our essential first vows
Speaker 1: to be able to create space for ourselves first and foremost,
Speaker 1: and then by doing so, to create other spaces for
Speaker 1: other people throughout society. And it's a fundamental commitment to
Speaker 1: a world in which people get to live out their
Speaker 1: lives without oppression and with the support that they need
Speaker 1: in order to thrive. I mean, that is the essential rationale,
Speaker 1: basis the fundamental bedrock of pride. And so I think
Speaker 1: that every year we remind ourselves, we recommit ourselves, which
Speaker 1: is why I call it a renewal vows. And of
Speaker 1: course it's like the people who were at Stonewall, we
Speaker 1: don't do so without joy. Joy is a tactic. Celebration
Speaker 1: is a tactic, and so around that it makes sense
Speaker 1: that the people who started the riot were also fundamental
Speaker 1: in terms of finding I'm sorry founding pride parades, which
Speaker 1: we're meant to do that and to commemorate the original
Speaker 1: riot with a celebration. And so we're meant to celebrate,
Speaker 1: We're meant to have a good time, we are meant
Speaker 1: to connect, we are meant to form community. But it
Speaker 1: is also our duty to remember. And as I say,
Speaker 1: to renew our vows, I love that. I love the
Speaker 1: idea of renewing vows. I love the idea of recognizing that,
Speaker 1: you know, joy is incredibly important, and I think that
Speaker 1: you know, I oftentimes get caught up in the rage
Speaker 1: right because moments, the times that we are living in
Speaker 1: are so rage inducing, right there is so much harm
Speaker 1: that is being done. But the importance of being able
Speaker 1: to celebrate one another, celebrate who we are, how we
Speaker 1: show up, I think is also important. Right now, there
Speaker 1: are hundreds hundreds of anti lgbt Q bills across the country.
Speaker 1: Most of them are targeting specifically our trans youth. What
Speaker 1: how do we as a community process where we are
Speaker 1: right now and how much backsliding is happening in terms
Speaker 1: of the respect and the acceptance of our community. Well,
Speaker 1: I think a couple of things I want to be
Speaker 1: very clear about nomenclature. There are three hundred anti trans
Speaker 1: bills in this country. Of course, there are important things
Speaker 1: such as don't say gay and the way that that's
Speaker 1: being replicated across the country, but I do not want
Speaker 1: to erase the fact that this is essentially an anti
Speaker 1: trans attack. And there are three hundred bills, mostly targeting
Speaker 1: trans youth, but some of them sweep up trans adults,
Speaker 1: saying that trans adults. Some of the proposed bills don't
Speaker 1: want to allow trans people to be able to have
Speaker 1: equal access to medical care until they're twenty one. So
Speaker 1: I think that we want to be very clear that
Speaker 1: this is a broad ranged attack, of course centered on
Speaker 1: trans youth, but at the core of that are three
Speaker 1: hundred anti trans bills. And you know, me and my
Speaker 1: entire team at trans Lash actually have spent the last
Speaker 1: several years investigating what's behind these bills. We learned so
Speaker 1: much that the only way that we could tell people
Speaker 1: about it was to be a separate podcast, which is
Speaker 1: called the Anti Transhate Machine, A Plot against Equality, which
Speaker 1: is now going to roll out in its second season
Speaker 1: in October. And we looked at the money, the people,
Speaker 1: the organizations, the politicians, the nonprofit groups that are fueling
Speaker 1: this anti trans backlash. And I think that one of
Speaker 1: the most important things about this particular moment, that's really
Speaker 1: essential for us to realize is that it's not an accident.
Speaker 1: This is the result of a very well crafted plan
Speaker 1: that conservatives and specifically the Christian nationalist movement have had
Speaker 1: for the past ten years. And they have put not
Speaker 1: only time, but hundreds of millions of dollars behind this
Speaker 1: specific effort. And so what I tell people is, if
Speaker 1: you are waking up on books fuck to the fact
Speaker 1: that these bills exist, you're already ten years and a
Speaker 1: couple hundred million dollars behind the right, you're late. And
Speaker 1: the thing about it is that they put so much
Speaker 1: energy that they've been able to scale this up in
Speaker 1: a short amount of time. So there were a handful
Speaker 1: of anti trans bills in twenty nineteen, maybe at anywhere
Speaker 1: between a half dozen and a dozen that then moved
Speaker 1: to one hundred and ninety eight last year to three
Speaker 1: hundred this year. And the state legislative session isn't out
Speaker 1: of session yet. Across the country, the state legislatures aren't
Speaker 1: and you don't get from six to three hundred and
Speaker 1: three years because there's something that's natural and organic. And
Speaker 1: I think that one of the things that we have
Speaker 1: to understand is that this anti trans attack that the
Speaker 1: right is executing is very much a part of their
Speaker 1: salt on democracy and an assault on a vision of
Speaker 1: America that they believe is fundamentally anathema. And so for them,
Speaker 1: the reason why they put this time and this money
Speaker 1: behind this effort is because for them, anti trans bills,
Speaker 1: anti abortion bills, critical race theory, and voting rights are
Speaker 1: all equally important. They see them as a unified way
Speaker 1: to cleave and to destroy this vision of America that
Speaker 1: they don't want. And I think that one of the
Speaker 1: things that progressives know, and you know this because you've
Speaker 1: worked in democratic politics and pressive circles for so long,
Speaker 1: is that they tend to still be white insists centered,
Speaker 1: and so they tend to think that issues such as
Speaker 1: trans are marginal and that will eventually get to them
Speaker 1: whenever we get to everything If yes, exactly, when we
Speaker 1: get through everything else, maybe we'll circle back. But what
Speaker 1: the right wing does is the exact opposite. For them,
Speaker 1: this is not a marginal issue. It's a central issue
Speaker 1: in their fight to take and to destroy that vision
Speaker 1: of America. We can get into the mechanics of how
Speaker 1: they're doing that and how it ties into voting rights,
Speaker 1: because it's very much linked. But I think that we
Speaker 1: have to understand that. And so while the left and
Speaker 1: progressive talk intersectionally, the right fights intersectionally. That is to say,
Speaker 1: they see the link between trans issues and gender issues
Speaker 1: specifically abortion, and race and voting rights. For them, they
Speaker 1: see it as a unified ecosystem that has to be
Speaker 1: dealt with and pressed upon at the same time, whereas
Speaker 1: progressives are not thinking that way, which is why right now,
Speaker 1: when it comes to trans issues and even some others,
Speaker 1: they're winning. The momentum is on their side right now.
Speaker 1: You know, I love what you just said about the
Speaker 1: fact that Republicans created an ecosystem, right and they are
Speaker 1: funding that ecosystem. And I've been saying for so friggin
Speaker 1: long that Democrats do not have coordination. They look at
Speaker 1: the White House as it as if it is like
Speaker 1: the Holy Grail, and look at nothing else. Meanwhile, Republicans
Speaker 1: literally do the opposite, which is looking at everything else.
Speaker 1: What can we hack away at? Right? And now they're
Speaker 1: going back to this place where they're making this about children,
Speaker 1: right and saying that we are groomers for wanting to
Speaker 1: allow young people to have the medical care that they
Speaker 1: need in order to live full and complete lives. And so,
Speaker 1: what what is it that the Democratic Party needs to
Speaker 1: do in order to recognize that this isn't just a
Speaker 1: circle back and we'll come deal with you later. Well,
Speaker 1: the funny thing when you study the right, I spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time looking at how they operate mechanically,
Speaker 1: is that they're not invested in the Republican Party. They
Speaker 1: see the Republican Party as a means to an end,
Speaker 1: and they make it very clear that they are willing
Speaker 1: to support the Republican Party, or take over the Republican Party,
Speaker 1: or undermine the Republican Party. Whatever they have to do
Speaker 1: in order to execute their vision of America is what
Speaker 1: they're doing. Which is why we've seen before our very
Speaker 1: eyes the Republican Party literally become a tool. You know,
Speaker 1: everyone's asking, well, what happened to the Republican Party and
Speaker 1: what happened to these values and what happened to the
Speaker 1: things that it stood for. It's been transformed into a
Speaker 1: tool of the Christian nationalists and the and the and
Speaker 1: the right wing of it. And so I think that
Speaker 1: we have to start stop thinking about these parties as
Speaker 1: the embodiment of values, and rather what they're becoming and
Speaker 1: specifically have become on the right and far right is
Speaker 1: and as are a means to an end. And the
Speaker 1: problem is that the Democratic Coalition writ large, let's just
Speaker 1: say that is still playing politics according to these old
Speaker 1: rules where the party is the embodiment and all of
Speaker 1: these things, and we're not there anymore. And I think
Speaker 1: that one of the things that people who are values
Speaker 1: aligned on the left or progressives have to think about
Speaker 1: is what has to happen in order to advance values
Speaker 1: and to counteract this movement on the right, because the
Speaker 1: Democratic Party as an institution is still buy and large
Speaker 1: playing for in an American political system that is quickly disintegrating.
Speaker 1: You know, there's the middle is quickly leaving, the ability
Speaker 1: to compromise are fading, and so the values and the
Speaker 1: ideas that the party is trying to hold onto with
Speaker 1: the in regards to the way that it works in Washington,
Speaker 1: not what's in the platform, of course, but the way
Speaker 1: that it works in Washington. Right, the trade offs, the
Speaker 1: eventually ability to get to the deals, letting this go
Speaker 1: so that you can get this other thing. That essential
Speaker 1: form of politics is becoming a thing of the past.
Speaker 1: And so I think that what we're looking at in
Speaker 1: the Republican Party maybe the where politics is going, where
Speaker 1: the party is actually a tool for a set of
Speaker 1: interests that are trying to advance themselves throughout the country,
Speaker 1: rather than the repository of values, which the Democratic Party
Speaker 1: still is. So we have two very different visions right now.
Speaker 1: I mean, we have so many different visions right now.
Speaker 1: You know, you brought up voting right, and the fact
Speaker 1: the coordinated attack with regard to the anti trans bills,
Speaker 1: the anti you know vote, the voter suppression bills, the
Speaker 1: fight with CRT, and then the conversation with rumors at
Speaker 1: all of these things. What the Democrats continue to say is, Oh,
Speaker 1: we just need to vote, We need to vote, We
Speaker 1: need to vote, we need to vote. And I'm saying,
Speaker 1: so where right, And I'm am I still voting for
Speaker 1: the same person. That is marginal right, because you all
Speaker 1: don't want to run any new candidates, because you don't
Speaker 1: want to actually build a pipeline. You want to keep
Speaker 1: people in Congress for thirty forty fifty years, so that
Speaker 1: we can have the same conversations. What do you what
Speaker 1: is your pushback to the constant refrain of we need
Speaker 1: to just vote, We just we just need to get
Speaker 1: out there and vote. When we do, it's in historic numbers,
Speaker 1: and yet things are continually backsliding. You know. I think
Speaker 1: that it's it's again, it's this separation of interest. What
Speaker 1: I mean by that is people need to vote. And
Speaker 1: throughout our long history as black people in this country,
Speaker 1: we've understood that what we are doing is trying to
Speaker 1: minimize the harm that the political process does to us,
Speaker 1: and that voting is a tool to do that. Right. So,
Speaker 1: by and large, for African Americans, for most of our
Speaker 1: history in this country, since we've been able to allowed
Speaker 1: to vote, voting is a defensive play. So I think
Speaker 1: that we need to think differently about voting. As marginalized people.
Speaker 1: We vote in order we do vote in order to
Speaker 1: stop things from getting worse. Right, that's the voting, that's
Speaker 1: the voting part. But in my heart, I'm like, is
Speaker 1: it are we stopping it from getting worse? Well, here's
Speaker 1: the thing. I mean, that's a really good point so
Speaker 1: we'll come to that because it's related to the other
Speaker 1: things that we've touched upon. So I think when we
Speaker 1: vote to stop things from getting worse, I think too,
Speaker 1: it means that we put just as much energy into
Speaker 1: figuring out and mobilizing people outside of the political process,
Speaker 1: because that's where the pressure on the political process to
Speaker 1: actually change will come from, if that makes any sense. Right. So,
Speaker 1: because what's on the right, what they've done is they
Speaker 1: went out and they organized and identified what they call
Speaker 1: our super voters. And the super voters, on their part,
Speaker 1: are overwhelmingly we're white mail voters who once you activate them,
Speaker 1: will vote. I think the number is ninety three percent
Speaker 1: of elections, right, and they vote in elections that federal election,
Speaker 1: not state elections, not just local. They every election that's
Speaker 1: coming up. Those people get to the polls and they
Speaker 1: have figured out that those people you know, have certain
Speaker 1: views on race, have certain views on gender, have certain
Speaker 1: views on gender identity, has certain views on immigration, and
Speaker 1: they figured out an agenda to superserve those super voters.
Speaker 1: Now they're they're not the majority, they may be twenty
Speaker 1: percent in the population, but because they vote in such
Speaker 1: extreme numbers, they're able to actually force multiply their numbers,
Speaker 1: which is how that small number of people can have
Speaker 1: such an outsize impact on our political process because they
Speaker 1: have figured out how to do that. And so then
Speaker 1: what that ecosystem of organizations on the right does is
Speaker 1: they then turn to the Republican Party and they say,
Speaker 1: we've got these voters, and here's what they care about,
Speaker 1: and here's their agenda, and here's how often we can
Speaker 1: get them to come to the polls. Now, do y'all
Speaker 1: want them or not? And if y'all want them, you
Speaker 1: have to start then saying and doing the things that
Speaker 1: they want and that we want to get them to
Speaker 1: the polls. So they organize outside of the political process
Speaker 1: and then turn to the political process and says, is
Speaker 1: this what you want? And so I think that similarly
Speaker 1: there has to be thinking about this defensive play through
Speaker 1: the political process, and then there has to be a
Speaker 1: lot of energy and thought about how to organize, similarly
Speaker 1: on the left and progressive circles to make that same
Speaker 1: offer on the Democratic Party, because that's the only way
Speaker 1: that you're going to get a fundamentally different view of
Speaker 1: politics and how you stop things from getting worse, because
Speaker 1: you know, that's that's the tie in. And I think
Speaker 1: that until we figure out how to mobilize in that way,
Speaker 1: until we figure out how to get fifteen twenty twenty
Speaker 1: five thirty percent of the population of progressives to show
Speaker 1: up in nine out of ten elections, then there's gonna
Speaker 1: be this mismatch and there's gonna be this backsliding. And
Speaker 1: I think that we don't think about that because people
Speaker 1: always say, oh, well, eighty percent of the people support abortion,
Speaker 1: or eighty percent of the people support trans rights, or
Speaker 1: eighty percent of people support climate change legislation. But what
Speaker 1: the Republican Party and in the right has figured out
Speaker 1: is that, yeah, but your eighty percent isn't willing to
Speaker 1: go to the polls on those exactly and hours are
Speaker 1: and that's how and that's how our twenty percent beat
Speaker 1: your eighty percent every time. And so I think that
Speaker 1: there has to be a fundamental there needs to be
Speaker 1: some really intelligent brain work to reconceptualize you know, non oppressive,
Speaker 1: non right wing, you know, non white supremacist spaces and politics,
Speaker 1: because because the idea that we'll just vote and we'll
Speaker 1: vote in the White House and that'll be okay. You know,
Speaker 1: one of the goals of the Republican Party is to
Speaker 1: win enough state legislators. Yeah, I'm sorry. To win enough
Speaker 1: state legislator legislate tours across the country, enough state houses
Speaker 1: across the country is an easier way to say it.
Speaker 1: So they can call it countstitutional convention and we write
Speaker 1: the constitution. You know, That's why is there a bid
Speaker 1: on the left to counteract that? Or no? You know?
Speaker 1: So you anything beats nothing all the time. And until
Speaker 1: there is a similar intelligent brainwork on how to mobilize
Speaker 1: and how to counteract this, then we're going to be
Speaker 1: in this space where it looks like things are getting
Speaker 1: worse because the momentum is on the side of the
Speaker 1: people who have a plan. Amar, Do you think that
Speaker 1: our democracy falls in the next couple of years? Do you?
Speaker 1: Because I'm telling you that the more conversations that I have,
Speaker 1: the more fear I hear in people's voices that I
Speaker 1: didn't hear two three, four years ago, and the more
Speaker 1: conversations that people are casually having about leaving this country right,
Speaker 1: and only those that have privilege and have the resources
Speaker 1: will be able to leave right. And so what does
Speaker 1: what does the future of our democracy look like to you,
Speaker 1: I think a couple of things, you know, I have.
Speaker 1: It's so funny that you asked me this. Um, I
Speaker 1: had this conversation. I was in La recently. I should
Speaker 1: have reached out to you, but I was, you know,
Speaker 1: um uh, I was having this conversation my friend's backyard.
Speaker 1: They are a progressive activists and and if I get
Speaker 1: more specific, it'll be apparent who they are. But I
Speaker 1: really I was going to say one thing and I
Speaker 1: was like, well, everyone's gonna know who that is. And
Speaker 1: this person was like, oh, well, you know, one of
Speaker 1: my escape plans is to go to Mexico, Mexico City.
Speaker 1: And I was talking to them and I was like,
Speaker 1: do you honestly think that if America becomes, you know,
Speaker 1: an anti democratic, white supremacist, fascist state, that Mexico City
Speaker 1: is going to be your refuge? Like do you know
Speaker 1: anything about the relationship between these two countries, And like
Speaker 1: the Mexicans won't care, the Mexican authorities won't care about
Speaker 1: you know, if this becomes a part of the writ
Speaker 1: closing the border, throwing all Americans out, there are all
Speaker 1: these things that can happen, right, So I and finally,
Speaker 1: one of our prints who was listening after I had
Speaker 1: this conversation, was like, yeah, I don't think that your
Speaker 1: condo in Mexico City is going to save you. And
Speaker 1: so I think that one of the things that we
Speaker 1: have to think about is that if the United States
Speaker 1: goes this route, there is no hiding place. You know,
Speaker 1: the United States still has um you know, thousands of
Speaker 1: military installations across the country, across the world. The United
Speaker 1: States still has the center of the financial system. There
Speaker 1: are all these things that the United States still has
Speaker 1: that if this happens here, there's kind of no hiding place.
Speaker 1: And I think that we have to disabuse ourselves that
Speaker 1: that's a real option. That's the first thing, no matter
Speaker 1: how rich you are. So I mean, look at what
Speaker 1: the United States is able to do to Russian billionaires
Speaker 1: when it put its mind to it. So, you know,
Speaker 1: So that's first thing. The second thing is that, you know,
Speaker 1: I do think that there are you know, there's always
Speaker 1: this thing that there are a third or third or
Speaker 1: third in these revolutionary moments. And I've been reading a
Speaker 1: lot about the French Revolution recent so I've become obsessed
Speaker 1: with this and that there are a lot of people
Speaker 1: in the middle who are kind of tuned out when
Speaker 1: these things are happening, and they continue to focus on
Speaker 1: their lives and they don't really know which way they
Speaker 1: should vote. And those people are embodied in those like
Speaker 1: Trump Obama voters, you know, those people who went like Obama,
Speaker 1: Trump Biden, right, those people. And I do think that
Speaker 1: those people largely are asleep. And I do think that
Speaker 1: we could get to a point where things get so
Speaker 1: bad that they freak out and we do get last
Speaker 1: minute real change. Do you understand what I mean? Like,
Speaker 1: I actually don't think. I do think that it's not
Speaker 1: inevitable that this happens. What I think is possible is
Speaker 1: that we get to the precipice where it feels like
Speaker 1: everything is literally about to come off the rails, and
Speaker 1: then in the last minute, those voters and a lot
Speaker 1: of the elite in this country, the billionaires, say we
Speaker 1: can't go down this road. But that means that things
Speaker 1: are going to get in ye And I think that
Speaker 1: that's the thing that I'm preparing myself for. I don't
Speaker 1: know where it's going to end, and I don't know
Speaker 1: how it's going to end. I know it's going to
Speaker 1: get a lot worse, and it's going to get a
Speaker 1: lot scarier. And I think that we have to prepare
Speaker 1: ourselves to be on the drop in the on the
Speaker 1: roller coaster, and at the same time, just like the drop,
Speaker 1: the drop can also provide momentum to get over the
Speaker 1: next hump. And so I think that we need to
Speaker 1: begin thinking about what is the country that we want
Speaker 1: to live in. What are the things that if we
Speaker 1: pull back from the brink, what are the things we're
Speaker 1: going to ask for to create a fundamentally different country.
Speaker 1: And we know that things can change. For example, during
Speaker 1: the COVID crisis, the political elite, the money to elite,
Speaker 1: got together and was like, this whole country is about
Speaker 1: to fall apart due to COVID. What are we going
Speaker 1: to do to save it? And literally, just like that,
Speaker 1: money began to move, resources began to move, you know,
Speaker 1: things that were once impossible started to move. Direct income
Speaker 1: support for small businesses, direct income support for families, all
Speaker 1: the rest of it. And what that is translated to
Speaker 1: is that in two years we've been able to cut
Speaker 1: the child poverty rate in the United States to its
Speaker 1: lowest level in twenty five years, just off of mobilizing
Speaker 1: around direct payments to households. So there's the capacity for
Speaker 1: things to turn around really quickly once we get to
Speaker 1: these points of things getting very scary. So what are
Speaker 1: we going to ask for in that moment? I think
Speaker 1: we have to be thinking about that, and I think
Speaker 1: that we have to prepare ourselves that we are in
Speaker 1: the elevator and it's gonna it's dropping fast, and it's
Speaker 1: gonna drop even faster. Oh marsh, But there's hope. Okay,
Speaker 1: you want to end on a hopeful note, Yeah, you
Speaker 1: know what's okay? Tell me, because let me tell you something.
Speaker 1: I'm in the elevator. I'm going down in the elevator.
Speaker 1: So please, where where do you see the hopefulness? You
Speaker 1: can't get to the new one, to the old dissolves.
Speaker 1: That's the hope. The hope is that whether it be
Speaker 1: a long period or a short period, that we can
Speaker 1: get to the place where we do get to create
Speaker 1: a fundamentally different society. You know, as I tell people
Speaker 1: all the time, whatever happened to our ancestors, you know,
Speaker 1: in their last moments in Africa and in the long
Speaker 1: voyage over and in the long history over, they understood
Speaker 1: that that wasn't the end of the story, and we
Speaker 1: are here because they saw a different vision for what's possible.
Speaker 1: So in this movement moment of dissolution, we need to
Speaker 1: rely on that. What is our dream of what's possible,
Speaker 1: what is our dream of what the next thing is?
Speaker 1: Because whatever happens, it's not going to be the end
Speaker 1: of the story. You know. Fundamentally, white supremacy is a
Speaker 1: nihilist vision. Left to its own devices, it will destroy itself.
Speaker 1: It will It's like Nazi ideology, right at some point
Speaker 1: the internal logic was going to take hold and it
Speaker 1: was going to end in devastation and destruction. It was
Speaker 1: going to collapse in on itself because it was essentially
Speaker 1: a nihilistic and a dark vision. So that's true for
Speaker 1: white supremacy. So if that's true, then the hope is
Speaker 1: that there's going to be something new that eventually comes up,
Speaker 1: and so what are we doing to bring that about
Speaker 1: and what's our vision for what that is? And that's
Speaker 1: the hope because they might win temporarily, but they're not
Speaker 1: gonna win. I mean, God willing, in all honesty, God willing.
Speaker 1: Amara Jones, thank you so much for making the time
Speaker 1: to join Woke. F to break down so much that
Speaker 1: is that is happening in this country and also providing
Speaker 1: us with a little bit of hope. I appreciate you.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Hey there, I
Speaker 1: want to tell you about another podcast I think you'll love.
Speaker 1: The Brown Girls Guide to Politics, hosted by a Shanty Gohler,
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Speaker 1: for me today, Dear friends on Woke f as always,
Speaker 1: Power to the people and to all the people. Power,
Speaker 1: Get woke and stay woke as fuck.