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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to woka F Daily with

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Speaker 1: me your girl, Danielle Moody recording from the Bunker. Folks,

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to welcome back to woke F Daily

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Speaker 1: Amara Jones, who is the host of the podcast trans Lash.

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Speaker 1: And you know, during this Pride Month where we on

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Speaker 1: woke f or celebrating Pride as a riot, talking with activists,

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Speaker 1: leaders and just folks about how we are comprehending this

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Speaker 1: moment of a considerable backslide in acceptance in this country,

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Speaker 1: not just for LGBTQ people in general, but for trans

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Speaker 1: people specifically. And in my conversation with Amra, what she

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Speaker 1: offered for me, which was very eye opening, is that

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Speaker 1: she said, Danielle, it isn't just over three hundred anti

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Speaker 1: LGBTQ bills that we're seeing across the country. It is

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Speaker 1: specifically anti trans bills criminalizing trans people in some places,

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Speaker 1: disallowing them from being able to access healthcare until the

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Speaker 1: age of twenty one, targeting trans youth right and their

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Speaker 1: families for helping them to get the kind of medical

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Speaker 1: care that they need in order to live full and

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Speaker 1: complete lives. And you know, I've been thinking about this

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Speaker 1: a lot, and what is the impetus behind this evil

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Speaker 1: that we are seeing, which you know, in some ways

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Speaker 1: what is happening in America feels like you're watching a

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Speaker 1: horror movie from the outside right and then recognizing that no, no,

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Speaker 1: this doesn't change. She doesn't go away after two hours.

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Speaker 1: That feeling of anxiety of fear sticks with us. And

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Speaker 1: what is at the core of it. It is the

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Speaker 1: fact that white supremacy is also steeped in patriarchy, and

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Speaker 1: those two things in combination with themselves at its core

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Speaker 1: or about control. It is about control and it is

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Speaker 1: about oppression. When we talk about patriarchy, we could talk

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Speaker 1: about control of women and people who occupy those female

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Speaker 1: bodies and how sis men in particular are threatened right

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Speaker 1: by women who are powerful. And what do I mean

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Speaker 1: by powerful, I mean understand their power, their worth right.

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Speaker 1: What always gets me, you know, when I talk about

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Speaker 1: the fifty two and fifty six percent of white women

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Speaker 1: that voted for Donald Trump, what gets me about it

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Speaker 1: is their own submission to white siss hetero men and

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Speaker 1: the belief that they don't have power and that the

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Speaker 1: righted order of things, as is their interpretation of the

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Speaker 1: Bible is that men are the heads of households, and

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Speaker 1: men are the ones with these guns that are saying,

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Speaker 1: we're protecting our families, you're protecting your very fragile egos.

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Speaker 1: But what is the connection between the assault on trans

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Speaker 1: identity and that of everything else we're seeing unfold Well,

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Speaker 1: Amar and I will get into this conversation, but it

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Speaker 1: is trans people represent the absolute truth, the truth that

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Speaker 1: no one else gets to define you for you, right,

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Speaker 1: no one else gets to assume place their beliefs on

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Speaker 1: your body, on your spirit, on yourself. And so by

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Speaker 1: virtue of trans people living right, their lives out loud,

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Speaker 1: unapologetically and dare demanding for equity and justice, They as

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Speaker 1: people pose an absolute affront to the white supremist patriarchal

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Speaker 1: structure right, because in that structure they are telling you

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Speaker 1: who matters, where you can be, what you can do,

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Speaker 1: how they can control your body, how they can control

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Speaker 1: your lives, your money, your existence, all of these things.

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Speaker 1: And trans people who are so courageous in and of

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Speaker 1: themselves because they push back against gendered stereotypes, against the

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Speaker 1: idea that we occupy a binary place, and they represent

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Speaker 1: expansion right, allowing and not even allowing. Allowing is not

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Speaker 1: the right word, but demanding of us to really think

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Speaker 1: about what we know to be true and whose truth

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Speaker 1: that is. We are taught from birth, from birth about gender.

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Speaker 1: You know, it used to be the pink newborn outfit

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Speaker 1: and the blue newborn outfit. You walk down and I

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Speaker 1: use this all the time, and maybe it's changed over

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Speaker 1: the years, but I would go into targets and walmarts,

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Speaker 1: and not walmarts because you know my politics, but targetate

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Speaker 1: that better. But go into these places to go and

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Speaker 1: buy toys for kids, and it's like, you can't just

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Speaker 1: buy a fucking toy. You got the blue toys over

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Speaker 1: here with the primary colors which are supposed to be

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Speaker 1: for boys, with the trucks and the science and this,

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Speaker 1: that and the other thing, and then you have even

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Speaker 1: the fucking legos were turned into pink and pastels for girls.

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Speaker 1: You're supposed to be this way, You're supposed to be

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Speaker 1: this way. We create these lines and the question is

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Speaker 1: why for whose benefit? Right? And the thing that I

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Speaker 1: keep like pondering as we are just seeing the world

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Speaker 1: be turned upside down is who was this supposed to

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Speaker 1: help right? These gendered forces, this binary Who is this

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Speaker 1: created for and it was created for men, for six

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Speaker 1: gendered hetero white men, to remain on top of every

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Speaker 1: food chain, of every pyramid of everything, to perpetuate the

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Speaker 1: lie right that women are weak, to perpetuate the lie

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Speaker 1: that there are only two genders, to perpetuate control in

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Speaker 1: our society and to hold that control. And so the

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Speaker 1: reason why these very fragile white sis men hate trans

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Speaker 1: people so very much is because they refuse to comply

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Speaker 1: with the bullshit we have all been fed and instead

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Speaker 1: choose to live their lives and their truth. So how

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Speaker 1: is it that if somebody is telling you this is

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Speaker 1: who I am and to respect that your audacity, your

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Speaker 1: response would be no, you don't deserve to exist in

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Speaker 1: the way that you choose to exist. Just think about

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Speaker 1: how fucking insane of a thought that is. Like when

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Speaker 1: somebody says to me or hear people say, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't get the trans thing. I don't understand, and

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Speaker 1: I'm using air quotes I don't understand. It's just like,

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Speaker 1: what is it that is so hard for you to understand?

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Speaker 1: Everyone's existence isn't made for your comfort, and the only

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Speaker 1: thing that you have to understand is what the fuck

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Speaker 1: is coming out of somebody else's mouth when they say

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Speaker 1: who they are and how to treat them, and fucking

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Speaker 1: model that for you. The only thing that you should

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Speaker 1: be doing is saying, Okay, I got it. I don't

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Speaker 1: understand why it's so difficult to treat people with respect

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Speaker 1: and dignity. But what I realize for Republicans, for these

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Speaker 1: white evangelical Christians, is that they don't dignify anybody's existence

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Speaker 1: but their own, not even that of their fucking you know,

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Speaker 1: straight white cis head or wives. They don't respect them,

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Speaker 1: their choices, their ability to control their own bodies, their minds,

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Speaker 1: curriculum because it's a majority of white women that are

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Speaker 1: teaching kids in the classrooms. So we don't choose you,

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Speaker 1: We don't trust you to be able to know what's

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Speaker 1: right for your own students, but we're certainly going to

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Speaker 1: give you a gun these days in these states and

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Speaker 1: say go off, be a warrior. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: you're a week I just like I feel insane when

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Speaker 1: you unpack all of the fucking mixed messages that are presented.

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Speaker 1: And so in the conversation that I have with a

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Speaker 1: Mara today, we get into a lot of things and

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Speaker 1: also talk about our democracy and the illusion of safety.

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Speaker 1: So I hope that you enjoy this conversation. Coming up next,

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Speaker 1: let me know in the comment section what you think

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Speaker 1: about the myriad of anti trans bills and if you're

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Speaker 1: paying attention to them, and if not, why aren't you

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Speaker 1: paying attention to them, because let me tell you something

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Speaker 1: that that is It is this community that is the

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Speaker 1: low hanging fruit, but they come in for everybody else

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Speaker 1: as well. So coming up next my conversation with Amara

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Speaker 1: Jones from Translash. Indisputable with Doctor Rashai Ricci is one

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Speaker 1: of the latest shows on the TYT network and also

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Speaker 1: the fastest growing news show in America. On his show,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Ricci plays no games regarding policy, delivering a heavy

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Speaker 1: dose a fact based truth and penetrating analysis on all

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Speaker 1: the top news stories focusing on racism, criminal and social justice, politics,

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Speaker 1: police brutality, Karens and much more. Listeners can also expect

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Speaker 1: interviews with fascinating guests, political leaders, commentators, and even biery

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Speaker 1: debates with conservatives on a wide range of policy topics

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Speaker 1: in the Bullpen. It is an indisputable fact that you

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Speaker 1: will love this show. Listen to Indisputable with Doctor rashad

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Speaker 1: Ricci on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: If you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe

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Speaker 1: so you never miss a new episode. Hey, I'm David

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Speaker 1: Plots of Slaves Political Gabfest. As another election season accelerates,

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Speaker 1: it can be tricky to sort through all the noise

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Speaker 1: and the news. Each week on the Gapfest, John Dickerson,

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Speaker 1: Emily Bathlon and I decipher the headlines, break down the races,

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Speaker 1: and tell you what issues really matter. We do not

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Speaker 1: always agree. We definitely do not always agree, but we

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Speaker 1: always deliver thoughtful debate and we always have a good time.

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Speaker 1: So subscribe to Slates Political Gapfest, new episodes every Thursday. Folks.

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Speaker 1: I am very happy to welcome back to woke a

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Speaker 1: f for another wonderful conversation. I'm sure. Amara Jones, who

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Speaker 1: is the host of trans Lash, a podcast that is

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Speaker 1: dedicated to talking about issues that are facing the trans community.

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Speaker 1: Happy Pride to you. We start We'll start with so

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Speaker 1: we'll start with something good, which is happy pride? Amara,

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Speaker 1: What does what does pride mean to you now? In

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Speaker 1: the kind of climate that we're in. Pride began as

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Speaker 1: a riot, it moved into kind of a capitalist celebration

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Speaker 1: of stuff. And now we're at a time when we

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Speaker 1: are having to fight for our lives in our existence again.

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Speaker 1: So what does pride mean to you this year? Well,

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Speaker 1: I always tell people, actually give the same answer every year,

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Speaker 1: which is that pride is actually a renewal of vows,

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Speaker 1: and it is a renewal of our essential first vows

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Speaker 1: to be able to create space for ourselves first and foremost,

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Speaker 1: and then by doing so, to create other spaces for

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Speaker 1: other people throughout society. And it's a fundamental commitment to

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Speaker 1: a world in which people get to live out their

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Speaker 1: lives without oppression and with the support that they need

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Speaker 1: in order to thrive. I mean, that is the essential rationale,

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Speaker 1: basis the fundamental bedrock of pride. And so I think

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Speaker 1: that every year we remind ourselves, we recommit ourselves, which

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Speaker 1: is why I call it a renewal vows. And of

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Speaker 1: course it's like the people who were at Stonewall, we

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Speaker 1: don't do so without joy. Joy is a tactic. Celebration

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Speaker 1: is a tactic, and so around that it makes sense

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Speaker 1: that the people who started the riot were also fundamental

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Speaker 1: in terms of finding I'm sorry founding pride parades, which

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Speaker 1: we're meant to do that and to commemorate the original

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Speaker 1: riot with a celebration. And so we're meant to celebrate,

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Speaker 1: We're meant to have a good time, we are meant

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Speaker 1: to connect, we are meant to form community. But it

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Speaker 1: is also our duty to remember. And as I say,

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Speaker 1: to renew our vows, I love that. I love the

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Speaker 1: idea of renewing vows. I love the idea of recognizing that,

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Speaker 1: you know, joy is incredibly important, and I think that

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Speaker 1: you know, I oftentimes get caught up in the rage

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Speaker 1: right because moments, the times that we are living in

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Speaker 1: are so rage inducing, right there is so much harm

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Speaker 1: that is being done. But the importance of being able

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Speaker 1: to celebrate one another, celebrate who we are, how we

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Speaker 1: show up, I think is also important. Right now, there

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Speaker 1: are hundreds hundreds of anti lgbt Q bills across the country.

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Speaker 1: Most of them are targeting specifically our trans youth. What

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Speaker 1: how do we as a community process where we are

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Speaker 1: right now and how much backsliding is happening in terms

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Speaker 1: of the respect and the acceptance of our community. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think a couple of things I want to be

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Speaker 1: very clear about nomenclature. There are three hundred anti trans

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Speaker 1: bills in this country. Of course, there are important things

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Speaker 1: such as don't say gay and the way that that's

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Speaker 1: being replicated across the country, but I do not want

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Speaker 1: to erase the fact that this is essentially an anti

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Speaker 1: trans attack. And there are three hundred bills, mostly targeting

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Speaker 1: trans youth, but some of them sweep up trans adults,

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Speaker 1: saying that trans adults. Some of the proposed bills don't

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Speaker 1: want to allow trans people to be able to have

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Speaker 1: equal access to medical care until they're twenty one. So

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Speaker 1: I think that we want to be very clear that

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Speaker 1: this is a broad ranged attack, of course centered on

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Speaker 1: trans youth, but at the core of that are three

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Speaker 1: hundred anti trans bills. And you know, me and my

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Speaker 1: entire team at trans Lash actually have spent the last

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Speaker 1: several years investigating what's behind these bills. We learned so

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Speaker 1: much that the only way that we could tell people

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Speaker 1: about it was to be a separate podcast, which is

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Speaker 1: called the Anti Transhate Machine, A Plot against Equality, which

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Speaker 1: is now going to roll out in its second season

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Speaker 1: in October. And we looked at the money, the people,

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Speaker 1: the organizations, the politicians, the nonprofit groups that are fueling

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Speaker 1: this anti trans backlash. And I think that one of

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Speaker 1: the most important things about this particular moment, that's really

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Speaker 1: essential for us to realize is that it's not an accident.

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Speaker 1: This is the result of a very well crafted plan

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Speaker 1: that conservatives and specifically the Christian nationalist movement have had

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Speaker 1: for the past ten years. And they have put not

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Speaker 1: only time, but hundreds of millions of dollars behind this

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Speaker 1: specific effort. And so what I tell people is, if

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Speaker 1: you are waking up on books fuck to the fact

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Speaker 1: that these bills exist, you're already ten years and a

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Speaker 1: couple hundred million dollars behind the right, you're late. And

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Speaker 1: the thing about it is that they put so much

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Speaker 1: energy that they've been able to scale this up in

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Speaker 1: a short amount of time. So there were a handful

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Speaker 1: of anti trans bills in twenty nineteen, maybe at anywhere

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Speaker 1: between a half dozen and a dozen that then moved

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Speaker 1: to one hundred and ninety eight last year to three

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Speaker 1: hundred this year. And the state legislative session isn't out

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Speaker 1: of session yet. Across the country, the state legislatures aren't

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Speaker 1: and you don't get from six to three hundred and

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Speaker 1: three years because there's something that's natural and organic. And

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Speaker 1: I think that one of the things that we have

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Speaker 1: to understand is that this anti trans attack that the

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Speaker 1: right is executing is very much a part of their

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Speaker 1: salt on democracy and an assault on a vision of

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Speaker 1: America that they believe is fundamentally anathema. And so for them,

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Speaker 1: the reason why they put this time and this money

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Speaker 1: behind this effort is because for them, anti trans bills,

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Speaker 1: anti abortion bills, critical race theory, and voting rights are

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Speaker 1: all equally important. They see them as a unified way

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Speaker 1: to cleave and to destroy this vision of America that

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Speaker 1: they don't want. And I think that one of the

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Speaker 1: things that progressives know, and you know this because you've

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Speaker 1: worked in democratic politics and pressive circles for so long,

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Speaker 1: is that they tend to still be white insists centered,

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Speaker 1: and so they tend to think that issues such as

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Speaker 1: trans are marginal and that will eventually get to them

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Speaker 1: whenever we get to everything If yes, exactly, when we

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Speaker 1: get through everything else, maybe we'll circle back. But what

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Speaker 1: the right wing does is the exact opposite. For them,

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Speaker 1: this is not a marginal issue. It's a central issue

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Speaker 1: in their fight to take and to destroy that vision

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Speaker 1: of America. We can get into the mechanics of how

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Speaker 1: they're doing that and how it ties into voting rights,

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Speaker 1: because it's very much linked. But I think that we

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Speaker 1: have to understand that. And so while the left and

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Speaker 1: progressive talk intersectionally, the right fights intersectionally. That is to say,

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Speaker 1: they see the link between trans issues and gender issues

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Speaker 1: specifically abortion, and race and voting rights. For them, they

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Speaker 1: see it as a unified ecosystem that has to be

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Speaker 1: dealt with and pressed upon at the same time, whereas

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Speaker 1: progressives are not thinking that way, which is why right now,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to trans issues and even some others,

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Speaker 1: they're winning. The momentum is on their side right now.

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Speaker 1: You know, I love what you just said about the

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Speaker 1: fact that Republicans created an ecosystem, right and they are

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Speaker 1: funding that ecosystem. And I've been saying for so friggin

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Speaker 1: long that Democrats do not have coordination. They look at

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Speaker 1: the White House as it as if it is like

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Speaker 1: the Holy Grail, and look at nothing else. Meanwhile, Republicans

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Speaker 1: literally do the opposite, which is looking at everything else.

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Speaker 1: What can we hack away at? Right? And now they're

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Speaker 1: going back to this place where they're making this about children,

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Speaker 1: right and saying that we are groomers for wanting to

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Speaker 1: allow young people to have the medical care that they

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Speaker 1: need in order to live full and complete lives. And so,

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Speaker 1: what what is it that the Democratic Party needs to

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Speaker 1: do in order to recognize that this isn't just a

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Speaker 1: circle back and we'll come deal with you later. Well,

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Speaker 1: the funny thing when you study the right, I spent

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Speaker 1: a lot of time looking at how they operate mechanically,

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Speaker 1: is that they're not invested in the Republican Party. They

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Speaker 1: see the Republican Party as a means to an end,

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Speaker 1: and they make it very clear that they are willing

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Speaker 1: to support the Republican Party, or take over the Republican Party,

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Speaker 1: or undermine the Republican Party. Whatever they have to do

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Speaker 1: in order to execute their vision of America is what

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Speaker 1: they're doing. Which is why we've seen before our very

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Speaker 1: eyes the Republican Party literally become a tool. You know,

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Speaker 1: everyone's asking, well, what happened to the Republican Party and

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Speaker 1: what happened to these values and what happened to the

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Speaker 1: things that it stood for. It's been transformed into a

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Speaker 1: tool of the Christian nationalists and the and the and

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Speaker 1: the right wing of it. And so I think that

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Speaker 1: we have to start stop thinking about these parties as

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Speaker 1: the embodiment of values, and rather what they're becoming and

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Speaker 1: specifically have become on the right and far right is

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Speaker 1: and as are a means to an end. And the

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Speaker 1: problem is that the Democratic Coalition writ large, let's just

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Speaker 1: say that is still playing politics according to these old

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Speaker 1: rules where the party is the embodiment and all of

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Speaker 1: these things, and we're not there anymore. And I think

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Speaker 1: that one of the things that people who are values

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Speaker 1: aligned on the left or progressives have to think about

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Speaker 1: is what has to happen in order to advance values

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Speaker 1: and to counteract this movement on the right, because the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party as an institution is still buy and large

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Speaker 1: playing for in an American political system that is quickly disintegrating.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's the middle is quickly leaving, the ability

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Speaker 1: to compromise are fading, and so the values and the

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Speaker 1: ideas that the party is trying to hold onto with

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Speaker 1: the in regards to the way that it works in Washington,

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Speaker 1: not what's in the platform, of course, but the way

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Speaker 1: that it works in Washington. Right, the trade offs, the

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Speaker 1: eventually ability to get to the deals, letting this go

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Speaker 1: so that you can get this other thing. That essential

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Speaker 1: form of politics is becoming a thing of the past.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that what we're looking at in

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party maybe the where politics is going, where

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Speaker 1: the party is actually a tool for a set of

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Speaker 1: interests that are trying to advance themselves throughout the country,

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Speaker 1: rather than the repository of values, which the Democratic Party

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Speaker 1: still is. So we have two very different visions right now.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we have so many different visions right now.

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Speaker 1: You know, you brought up voting right, and the fact

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Speaker 1: the coordinated attack with regard to the anti trans bills,

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Speaker 1: the anti you know vote, the voter suppression bills, the

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Speaker 1: fight with CRT, and then the conversation with rumors at

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Speaker 1: all of these things. What the Democrats continue to say is, Oh,

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Speaker 1: we just need to vote, We need to vote, We

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Speaker 1: need to vote, we need to vote. And I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: so where right, And I'm am I still voting for

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Speaker 1: the same person. That is marginal right, because you all

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Speaker 1: don't want to run any new candidates, because you don't

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Speaker 1: want to actually build a pipeline. You want to keep

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Speaker 1: people in Congress for thirty forty fifty years, so that

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Speaker 1: we can have the same conversations. What do you what

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Speaker 1: is your pushback to the constant refrain of we need

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Speaker 1: to just vote, We just we just need to get

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Speaker 1: out there and vote. When we do, it's in historic numbers,

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Speaker 1: and yet things are continually backsliding. You know. I think

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Speaker 1: that it's it's again, it's this separation of interest. What

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Speaker 1: I mean by that is people need to vote. And

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Speaker 1: throughout our long history as black people in this country,

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Speaker 1: we've understood that what we are doing is trying to

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Speaker 1: minimize the harm that the political process does to us,

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Speaker 1: and that voting is a tool to do that. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: by and large, for African Americans, for most of our

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Speaker 1: history in this country, since we've been able to allowed

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Speaker 1: to vote, voting is a defensive play. So I think

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Speaker 1: that we need to think differently about voting. As marginalized people.

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Speaker 1: We vote in order we do vote in order to

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Speaker 1: stop things from getting worse. Right, that's the voting, that's

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Speaker 1: the voting part. But in my heart, I'm like, is

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Speaker 1: it are we stopping it from getting worse? Well, here's

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Speaker 1: the thing. I mean, that's a really good point so

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Speaker 1: we'll come to that because it's related to the other

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Speaker 1: things that we've touched upon. So I think when we

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Speaker 1: vote to stop things from getting worse, I think too,

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Speaker 1: it means that we put just as much energy into

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Speaker 1: figuring out and mobilizing people outside of the political process,

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Speaker 1: because that's where the pressure on the political process to

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Speaker 1: actually change will come from, if that makes any sense. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: because what's on the right, what they've done is they

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Speaker 1: went out and they organized and identified what they call

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Speaker 1: our super voters. And the super voters, on their part,

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Speaker 1: are overwhelmingly we're white mail voters who once you activate them,

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Speaker 1: will vote. I think the number is ninety three percent

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Speaker 1: of elections, right, and they vote in elections that federal election,

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Speaker 1: not state elections, not just local. They every election that's

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Speaker 1: coming up. Those people get to the polls and they

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Speaker 1: have figured out that those people you know, have certain

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Speaker 1: views on race, have certain views on gender, have certain

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Speaker 1: views on gender identity, has certain views on immigration, and

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Speaker 1: they figured out an agenda to superserve those super voters.

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Speaker 1: Now they're they're not the majority, they may be twenty

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Speaker 1: percent in the population, but because they vote in such

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Speaker 1: extreme numbers, they're able to actually force multiply their numbers,

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Speaker 1: which is how that small number of people can have

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Speaker 1: such an outsize impact on our political process because they

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Speaker 1: have figured out how to do that. And so then

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Speaker 1: what that ecosystem of organizations on the right does is

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Speaker 1: they then turn to the Republican Party and they say,

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Speaker 1: we've got these voters, and here's what they care about,

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Speaker 1: and here's their agenda, and here's how often we can

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Speaker 1: get them to come to the polls. Now, do y'all

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Speaker 1: want them or not? And if y'all want them, you

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Speaker 1: have to start then saying and doing the things that

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Speaker 1: they want and that we want to get them to

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Speaker 1: the polls. So they organize outside of the political process

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Speaker 1: and then turn to the political process and says, is

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Speaker 1: this what you want? And so I think that similarly

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Speaker 1: there has to be thinking about this defensive play through

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Speaker 1: the political process, and then there has to be a

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Speaker 1: lot of energy and thought about how to organize, similarly

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Speaker 1: on the left and progressive circles to make that same

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Speaker 1: offer on the Democratic Party, because that's the only way

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Speaker 1: that you're going to get a fundamentally different view of

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Speaker 1: politics and how you stop things from getting worse, because

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Speaker 1: you know, that's that's the tie in. And I think

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Speaker 1: that until we figure out how to mobilize in that way,

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Speaker 1: until we figure out how to get fifteen twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: five thirty percent of the population of progressives to show

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Speaker 1: up in nine out of ten elections, then there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be this mismatch and there's gonna be this backsliding. And

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Speaker 1: I think that we don't think about that because people

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Speaker 1: always say, oh, well, eighty percent of the people support abortion,

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Speaker 1: or eighty percent of the people support trans rights, or

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Speaker 1: eighty percent of people support climate change legislation. But what

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party and in the right has figured out

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Speaker 1: is that, yeah, but your eighty percent isn't willing to

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Speaker 1: go to the polls on those exactly and hours are

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Speaker 1: and that's how and that's how our twenty percent beat

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Speaker 1: your eighty percent every time. And so I think that

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Speaker 1: there has to be a fundamental there needs to be

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Speaker 1: some really intelligent brain work to reconceptualize you know, non oppressive,

432
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: non right wing, you know, non white supremacist spaces and politics,

433
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: because because the idea that we'll just vote and we'll

434
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: vote in the White House and that'll be okay. You know,

435
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: one of the goals of the Republican Party is to

436
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: win enough state legislators. Yeah, I'm sorry. To win enough

437
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: state legislator legislate tours across the country, enough state houses

438
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: across the country is an easier way to say it.

439
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: So they can call it countstitutional convention and we write

440
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: the constitution. You know, That's why is there a bid

441
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: on the left to counteract that? Or no? You know?

442
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: So you anything beats nothing all the time. And until

443
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: there is a similar intelligent brainwork on how to mobilize

444
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: and how to counteract this, then we're going to be

445
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: in this space where it looks like things are getting

446
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: worse because the momentum is on the side of the

447
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: people who have a plan. Amar, Do you think that

448
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: our democracy falls in the next couple of years? Do you?

449
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: Because I'm telling you that the more conversations that I have,

450
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: the more fear I hear in people's voices that I

451
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: didn't hear two three, four years ago, and the more

452
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: conversations that people are casually having about leaving this country right,

453
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: and only those that have privilege and have the resources

454
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: will be able to leave right. And so what does

455
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: what does the future of our democracy look like to you,

456
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: I think a couple of things, you know, I have.

457
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: It's so funny that you asked me this. Um, I

458
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: had this conversation. I was in La recently. I should

459
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: have reached out to you, but I was, you know,

460
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: um uh, I was having this conversation my friend's backyard.

461
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: They are a progressive activists and and if I get

462
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: more specific, it'll be apparent who they are. But I

463
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: really I was going to say one thing and I

464
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: was like, well, everyone's gonna know who that is. And

465
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: this person was like, oh, well, you know, one of

466
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: my escape plans is to go to Mexico, Mexico City.

467
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: And I was talking to them and I was like,

468
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: do you honestly think that if America becomes, you know,

469
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: an anti democratic, white supremacist, fascist state, that Mexico City

470
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: is going to be your refuge? Like do you know

471
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: anything about the relationship between these two countries, And like

472
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: the Mexicans won't care, the Mexican authorities won't care about

473
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: you know, if this becomes a part of the writ

474
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: closing the border, throwing all Americans out, there are all

475
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: these things that can happen, right, So I and finally,

476
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: one of our prints who was listening after I had

477
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: this conversation, was like, yeah, I don't think that your

478
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: condo in Mexico City is going to save you. And

479
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: so I think that one of the things that we

480
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: have to think about is that if the United States

481
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: goes this route, there is no hiding place. You know,

482
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: the United States still has um you know, thousands of

483
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: military installations across the country, across the world. The United

484
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: States still has the center of the financial system. There

485
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: are all these things that the United States still has

486
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: that if this happens here, there's kind of no hiding place.

487
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: And I think that we have to disabuse ourselves that

488
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: that's a real option. That's the first thing, no matter

489
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: how rich you are. So I mean, look at what

490
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: the United States is able to do to Russian billionaires

491
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: when it put its mind to it. So, you know,

492
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: So that's first thing. The second thing is that, you know,

493
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 1: I do think that there are you know, there's always

494
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: this thing that there are a third or third or

495
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: third in these revolutionary moments. And I've been reading a

496
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: lot about the French Revolution recent so I've become obsessed

497
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 1: with this and that there are a lot of people

498
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: in the middle who are kind of tuned out when

499
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,879
Speaker 1: these things are happening, and they continue to focus on

500
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: their lives and they don't really know which way they

501
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: should vote. And those people are embodied in those like

502
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: Trump Obama voters, you know, those people who went like Obama,

503
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 1: Trump Biden, right, those people. And I do think that

504
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: those people largely are asleep. And I do think that

505
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: we could get to a point where things get so

506
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 1: bad that they freak out and we do get last

507
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: minute real change. Do you understand what I mean? Like,

508
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: I actually don't think. I do think that it's not

509
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: inevitable that this happens. What I think is possible is

510
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: that we get to the precipice where it feels like

511
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: everything is literally about to come off the rails, and

512
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: then in the last minute, those voters and a lot

513
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: of the elite in this country, the billionaires, say we

514
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 1: can't go down this road. But that means that things

515
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 1: are going to get in ye And I think that

516
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 1: that's the thing that I'm preparing myself for. I don't

517
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: know where it's going to end, and I don't know

518
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: how it's going to end. I know it's going to

519
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: get a lot worse, and it's going to get a

520
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: lot scarier. And I think that we have to prepare

521
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: ourselves to be on the drop in the on the

522
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: roller coaster, and at the same time, just like the drop,

523
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: the drop can also provide momentum to get over the

524
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: next hump. And so I think that we need to

525
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 1: begin thinking about what is the country that we want

526
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: to live in. What are the things that if we

527
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 1: pull back from the brink, what are the things we're

528
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: going to ask for to create a fundamentally different country.

529
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: And we know that things can change. For example, during

530
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: the COVID crisis, the political elite, the money to elite,

531
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,919
Speaker 1: got together and was like, this whole country is about

532
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: to fall apart due to COVID. What are we going

533
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: to do to save it? And literally, just like that,

534
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: money began to move, resources began to move, you know,

535
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: things that were once impossible started to move. Direct income

536
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: support for small businesses, direct income support for families, all

537
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: the rest of it. And what that is translated to

538
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: is that in two years we've been able to cut

539
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: the child poverty rate in the United States to its

540
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: lowest level in twenty five years, just off of mobilizing

541
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: around direct payments to households. So there's the capacity for

542
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: things to turn around really quickly once we get to

543
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: these points of things getting very scary. So what are

544
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 1: we going to ask for in that moment? I think

545
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 1: we have to be thinking about that, and I think

546
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: that we have to prepare ourselves that we are in

547
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: the elevator and it's gonna it's dropping fast, and it's

548
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: gonna drop even faster. Oh marsh, But there's hope. Okay,

549
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: you want to end on a hopeful note, Yeah, you

550
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: know what's okay? Tell me, because let me tell you something.

551
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: I'm in the elevator. I'm going down in the elevator.

552
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: So please, where where do you see the hopefulness? You

553
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: can't get to the new one, to the old dissolves.

554
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: That's the hope. The hope is that whether it be

555
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 1: a long period or a short period, that we can

556
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: get to the place where we do get to create

557
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: a fundamentally different society. You know, as I tell people

558
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: all the time, whatever happened to our ancestors, you know,

559
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: in their last moments in Africa and in the long

560
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: voyage over and in the long history over, they understood

561
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: that that wasn't the end of the story, and we

562
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: are here because they saw a different vision for what's possible.

563
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: So in this movement moment of dissolution, we need to

564
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: rely on that. What is our dream of what's possible,

565
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: what is our dream of what the next thing is?

566
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: Because whatever happens, it's not going to be the end

567
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: of the story. You know. Fundamentally, white supremacy is a

568
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: nihilist vision. Left to its own devices, it will destroy itself.

569
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: It will It's like Nazi ideology, right at some point

570
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: the internal logic was going to take hold and it

571
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: was going to end in devastation and destruction. It was

572
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: going to collapse in on itself because it was essentially

573
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: a nihilistic and a dark vision. So that's true for

574
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: white supremacy. So if that's true, then the hope is

575
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: that there's going to be something new that eventually comes up,

576
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: and so what are we doing to bring that about

577
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: and what's our vision for what that is? And that's

578
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: the hope because they might win temporarily, but they're not

579
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: gonna win. I mean, God willing, in all honesty, God willing.

580
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: Amara Jones, thank you so much for making the time

581
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,919
Speaker 1: to join Woke. F to break down so much that

582
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: is that is happening in this country and also providing

583
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: us with a little bit of hope. I appreciate you.

584
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Hey there, I

585
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: want to tell you about another podcast I think you'll love.

586
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: The Brown Girls Guide to Politics, hosted by a Shanty Gohler,

587
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: the president of Emerge BGG, is the one stop shop

588
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,399
Speaker 1: for women of color who want to hear and talk

589
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 1: about the world of politics. Join a Shanty this season

590
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: as she talks to incredible women of color who are

591
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: changing the face of politics and tackling some of the

592
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 1: most important issues facing the United States, from aductive justice

593
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: to voting rights, to climate change and more. Tune in

594
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. That is it

595
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: for me today, Dear friends on Woke f as always,

596
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: Power to the people and to all the people. Power,

597
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 1: Get woke and stay woke as fuck.