WEBVTT - "Shots Have Been Fired" 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.280 What you're about to hear is one of the most 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:19.680 incredible stories I've ever heard, and it's going to be 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:23.800 getting quickly. So let me first introduce myself. I'm Solidad O'Brien. 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:27.080 I'm a journalist. A few months ago, the film director 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:29.840 Rob Reiner called me and he asked me what I 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.919 knew about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, a 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:38.440 crime that happened sixty years ago. I told him I 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:42.400 thought I knew the story. It turns out I don't. 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:48.519 The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.280 murder mystery in American history. I was sixteen years old 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:54.960 when it happened, and it has never left me. In 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:58.600 order to understand the magnitude of this world changing event, 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:01.520 you have to start at the end of the story. 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.320 That's Rob. He knows a thing or two about telling 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:08.680 a good story. He's the creative powerhouse behind movies like 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:12.319 The Princess Bride, When Harry Met Sally, stand By Me, 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:13.800 and Spinal Tab. 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:15.240 That's just to name a few. 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:17.360 John F. 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:20.520 Kennedy was president at a time when the world was 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.800 on the brink of nuclear war, and he tried to 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:25.520 put us on a path towards peace. 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.640 I wasn't even born when this happened, but the way 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:32.720 Rob tells it, it's like it just happened, because, in 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.479 a way, it's a story that's not over. 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:40.240 In order to understand what really happened on November twenty second, 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.800 nineteen sixty three, we're going to start at the end 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:47.279 of the story with a paunchy, middle aged nightclub owner. 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:49.360 His name is Jack Ruby. 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:54.320 Ruby is wandering through a crowd in a parking garage. 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.120 I'm looking at a photo of this moment, I'd probably 0:01:58.160 --> 0:01:59.800 be thinking who is this guy? 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.200 I mean, he doesn't look like he's a cop or 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:02.760 a reporter. 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.680 And it's not just any parking garage. 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:11.560 It's the parking garage of the Dallas Police headquarters. Hundreds 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:15.800 of reporters are gathered to photograph Lee Harvey Oswald, the 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:20.920 ex marine who is suspected of assassinating President John F. Kennedy, 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:26.000 on a street in Dallas in broad daylight. Oswald is 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:29.600 being moved to the county jail, and Ruby is there 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:32.160 to witness it, or so it seems. 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:34.360 Oswald appears. 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:37.680 The police are escorting him down a hallway toward a 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.480 car that will take him to the county jail where 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:45.080 he'll wait for trial. The trial where America will finally 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:48.240 get an answer to the question who would want to 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:57.160 kill the President of the United States. Oswald is in handcuffs, 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:02.200 He's flanked by officers. Ruby weaves his way to the 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:06.200 front of the crowd. People at the station know Ruby 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.720 officers would often come to his local club, so Ruby 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:13.080 is able to easily position himself just a few feet 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:18.160 away from Oswald. Suddenly, Ruby reaches into his pocket and 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:22.440 removes a thirty eight caliber Colt Cobra revolver. He lurches 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:28.160 forward and from point blank range, fires into Oswald's stomach. 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:30.440 Oswald crumples to the ground. 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:34.080 One of the policemen who recognizes Ruby says, Jack, you 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:35.080 son of a bitch. 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.840 The entire incident is caught on live TV. Americans around 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:43.400 the country watch stunned as the man suspected of killing 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:49.640 their beloved president is himself murdered. It's astounding, and I 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:54.000 just have to ask, Rob, you were watching this live? 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:57.400 I was, and like the rest of the nation, I 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:01.880 was in shock. I had so manyquestians who was Oswald? 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:04.240 Did he actually kill the president? 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:08.920 And why? Why would Ruby, a local nightclub owner take 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:10.839 it upon himself to kill Oswalt. 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.480 I know Jack Ruby says he did it because he 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.840 wanted to spare Jackie Kennedy the grief of returning to 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:18.360 Dallas for Oswald's trial. 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.480 Right and the sun sets in the east. Knowing what 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:26.839 we know about Jack Ruby's mob connections, that is ridiculous. 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.520 To understand what Ruby was doing, all you have to 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:34.599 do is listen to what Oswald said the day before 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.560 he was shot. It comes down to this one sentence, 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:41.560 and he said it to the press, and it's been 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.960 over sixty years and you cannot get that sentence out 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.440 of your head. 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:50.640 I'm just a patsy. Usually criminals will say you got 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:54.240 the wrong guy. But a patsy exactly. 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.800 A patsy is a pawn who takes the fall for 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:03.239 somebody else. It this way, if Oswald is a patsy, 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.240 when he goes to trial, he's going to reveal who 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:10.640 set him up. Jack Ruby was there to silence Oswald, 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:14.760 to hide the truth about what really happened and who 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:16.920 really assassinated the president. 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.960 That leaves me with so many questions. 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:24.000 It should when you think of Ruby as a loose 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:27.719 thread and you start to pull on it, others come loose. 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.600 Okay, for sixty years you've been pulling at those threads. 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:35.479 But there have been lots of investigators, lawyers, journalists who've 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:40.479 come to conclusions. You don't think conclusions means case closed. 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:41.880 I don't. 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:48.280 And in this podcast, I'm going to tell you why. 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:53.279 This is who killed JFK sixty years later? What can 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:57.560 we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in American history? 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:01.320 And why does it still matter today? I'm your host, 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:08.240 Solidad O'Brien. President John Fitzgerald Kennedy was the youngest president 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:11.520 in US history when he took office in nineteen sixty one. 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:15.479 He was also the youngest US president to die when 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.680 he was killed by an assassin's bullet almost three years 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:23.039 later on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three. He was 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:27.000 forty six years old. On that fateful day, his flight 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:31.280 arrived at Dallas love Field at eleven thirty seven am. 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.440 And here is the President of the United States. How 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:36.360 the crowd is after they're going wild? 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:41.719 The President in very obvious good spirits, and the President 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.080 and his wife are going to be visible all through Dallas. 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.240 I think we all know this story Kennedy was riding 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.440 in an open car motorcade through the city of Dallas. 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:55.200 It was time to start campaigning for reelection, so he 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.880 rode in the back of a convertible with his wife 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.440 Jackie by his side, before an adoring crowd. 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:06.160 President's card now turning onto Element Street, and it appears 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.200 as though nothing has happened in the motorcade route. Something 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.360 I repeat, harp happened and the motorcade route park and 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.520 Hospital has been a by then by the bear guns 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:16.000 got boon. 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.400 We all know what happened because a man named Abraham Supruder, 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:24.160 a local Dallas dressmaker, filmed it all on his eight 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:28.119 millimeter camera. In the film, we see the motorcade entering 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:32.880 Daily Plaza just before twelve thirty in the afternoon. Suddenly 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:36.320 the president is shot in the neck. Seconds later we 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:38.080 see the fatal shot. 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:38.480 To his head. 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:43.200 Then the President's limousine races to Parkland Hospital. 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:45.120 Kennedy apparently got ahead. 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:47.600 He fell fate down in back seat of his. 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.440 Car the flash Apparently official. 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:56.000 President Kennedy died at one pm Central Standard. 0:07:55.520 --> 0:08:01.760 Time, approximately seventy minutes later. Lee Harvey oswae Xus Marine 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:05.640 is arrested at a movie theater. I think I have 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:09.800 about as much knowledge of this case as the average person, 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.520 which is the basic Oswald kills Kennedy, Ruby kills Oswald, 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:17.360 and then there are like a hundred theories trying to 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:22.000 answer why. Sixty years later, we all still want to 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:27.720 know why. How old were you when Kennedy was assassinated. 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:34.360 I was sixteen, and like everybody else, I remember exactly 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.360 where I was when I heard. I was in my 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:41.880 physics class in high school. I remember one of the 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:46.200 students walked in whispered in the ear of my physics teacher, 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:48.640 and he turned to the class and he said, I 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:53.280 have some terrible news. They sent us all home from 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:57.640 school and we turned on our televisions and we watched 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:04.840 non stop. It felt like we lost our father. It's stunning, 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:09.320 and you have to understand that we all heard that 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:14.000 Kennedy was assassinated at the same time. We all saw 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:17.240 Lee Harvey Oswald killed by Jack Ruby. 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:18.640 At the same time. 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.880 So now you have a country of you know, one 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.520 hundred and seventy million people at the time. I can't 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:31.880 remember exactly all experiencing something at the same time. It's 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:36.439 not like it was thrown up on social media and 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:41.000 repeated over and over, and people saw it at different times. 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:48.079 It is a profound collective trauma. In nineteen sixty five 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:53.440 sixty six, the war in Vietnam was ramping up. Kennedy 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.360 had talked about getting us out of Vietnam. 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.319 I was of draft age. 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:02.640 So my generation got very upset by what had happened 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:07.120 to Kennedy because it directly impacted us, and so we 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:11.600 really started distrusting the government. There was a phrase an 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:15.360 expression that we had during that period, and it was 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.240 never trust anybody over thirty. 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.679 I've noticed that people always seemed to frame the murder 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:27.040 of JFK as the moment Americans started distrusting the US government. So, 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.400 as someone who's not white, I can tell you people 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:31.560 of color had plenty of reasons not to trust the 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.440 government long before Kennedy died. When this happened, at the 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.600 height of the Civil Rights Movement, black people were already 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:42.560 speaking about systemic oppression at the hands of government. Young 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.760 white men may have started distrusting the government because now 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.600 they knew what it felt like too. But I have 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:52.560 to tell you, I'm probably as interested in the mystery 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:56.439 and the conspiracy theories around this murder as most people 0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:00.040 who grew up in the aftermath. But Rob feels a 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:04.440 sense of urgency to understand the truth, and I want 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:08.000 to understand why it matters so much. So I'm hosting 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:11.120 this podcast with Rob, who's a storyteller and whose work 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:15.320 is known for digging deeply into the American consciousness. I 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:19.160 think Rob's fascination with this case and all the work 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:25.960 he's done to find answers does exactly that. So Rob, 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:29.240 tell me about the moment when you started to think, hmm, 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:33.080 I don't know that I can trust the official story. 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:36.880 Well, I maybe. I was nineteen at the time. I 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.800 was performing at a club in San Francisco. It was 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.800 called The Hungry Eye with my friend Larry Bishop, who 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.679 was Joey Bishop's son, and we were opening for Carmen McCrae, 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:51.160 now mort Saul, who was a brilliant political satirist. He 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.560 was playing in the smaller room at the club, and 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:55.960 so when we would finish our set, we'd go and 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:58.720 listen to him and more. You know, at that time 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:02.280 he wasn't doing as normal routine. All he talked about 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.640 was the Kennedy assassination and how the government was lined 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:09.400 to us, so I started reading up on it, and 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.320 the first book I remember reading was a book by 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:15.800 Mark Lane called Rush to Judgment. And the more I read, 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:19.079 the more the Warren Commission report just fell apart. 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.880 The Warren Commission refers to the government's official story, which 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.800 was published in nineteen sixty four following a ten month 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:31.959 investigation into what happened on that day in Dallas. They 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:35.960 declared Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, that he killed the 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.120 president with shots from a rifle he fired from the 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:43.280 sixth floor of a building called the Texas School Book Depository, 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:47.800 which overlooked the president's passing motor cade. I know about 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:51.199 the Warren Report because that's what I was taught in school. 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:55.520 A lone gunman killed the president. And that was decades 0:12:55.679 --> 0:13:00.360 after Rob watched a skeptical Mortsaul. For decades, journal and 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:05.520 civilian sleuths had continued their own intricate investigations into the story, 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.240 and there are now separate theories that the mob murder 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.520 JFK or the CIA set it all up, or that 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:16.200 a population of Cuban exiles did it. There are so 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:18.920 many theories. Where do you begin. 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:22.480 You're right, I mean, there's a lot to sift through, 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.640 and it wasn't until twenty fifteen. I was making a 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.840 film LBJ with Woody Harrelson, and the producer Matt George, 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:35.240 introduced me to Dick Russell. Now, Dick Russell wrote a 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:39.160 book called The Man Who Knew Too Much, and after 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:43.040 one conversation with Dick, all the pieces of the puzzles 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:45.040 started to fall into place. 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:48.200 The Man Who Knew Too Much is about a CIA 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.599 agent named Richard case Nagel who knew Lee Harvey Oswald. 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.240 Dick Russell was a sportswriter in nineteen seventy five when 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:59.120 he stumbled upon Nagel, and since then Dick's written three 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:03.520 books about the sassination of JFK, making the investigation one 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:07.199 of his principal beats as a journalist. Rob shared his 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:12.040 fascination and after that one conversation they became a team. 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.679 So we went to Dallas. We visited Dally Plaza, and 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:17.880 we talked to as many people as we could who 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.600 were still alive that were there that day. I talked 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:23.720 to bul Frasier, who was a guy who drove Oswell 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.240 to work that day. We talked to forensics experts, We 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:31.600 met with CIA asset named Tosh Plumley, who flew CIA 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:35.480 agent E Howard Hunt and mobster Johnny ROSSELLI to Dallas 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.560 that day and was positioned on the south knoll of 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.440 Daily Plaza when the shots were fired. We tried to cover, 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:44.200 as they say, the waterfront. 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.320 Those are all names that will make sense later in 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.160 the series when we dive into the mystery of it all, 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:52.920 But for now, Rob invited me to sit down with 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:55.080 him and Dick Russell. 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:56.560 You know, Dick, I'm always. 0:14:56.200 --> 0:15:02.120 Interested in helped people's obsessions be again. Is it wrong 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:06.440 to say that you've had an obsession about this assassination? Yeah? 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:09.520 I think it's absolutely true. I mean I have had 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.280 an obsession with it for many years, and in the 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:15.040 mid nineteen seventies, when I was living in New York 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.880 and freelancing for a lot of different newspapers and magazines, 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.360 I spent pretty much two full years on this trail. 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.200 It was in nineteen seventy six, but a Senate committee 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.800 headed up by Idaho Senator Frank Church exposed a trove 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.880 of CIA secrets that prompted the formation of the House 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:40.040 Select Committee on Assassinations. So the HSCA reopened the investigation 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.920 into Kennedy's death, and a couple of years later, they 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.600 determined that Lee Harvey Oswald had not acted alone, but 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:52.280 the murder was likely a result of quote, a conspiracy. 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.600 They didn't say anything specific about who else was involved. 0:15:56.120 --> 0:16:01.440 They just vaguely said others left the door open. 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.000 What do you want people to walk away from this 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:16.800 podcast with? 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.080 I want the American people to know the truth, to 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.080 be presented with all the facts, and that those facts 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.720 will lead them to only one conclusion. 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:27.320 This was a conspiracy. 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:29.560 And if people don't know the truth about their government, 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.160 the foundation of our democracy starts to crumble. 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.640 So the reason that we're here, the reason that you 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:36.920 are doing this is you want the truth. 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:41.440 Yes, I want the truth, And to contradict a character 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.160 in a film I directed, I think we can handle 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:44.760 the truth. 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:48.880 So I guess I would say I'm doing something a 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:51.840 little bit different here. I'm sort of taking off my 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.000 journalist's hat for this one, because you're really the one 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:56.640 who's done so much of the reporting on this story, 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.080 and I'm going to let you lead me in this 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.960 journey pushback where I think I need to push back, 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.600 But largely I guess I'm trying to understand your point 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:06.040 of view. 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:08.800 So I guess we start with the biggie, who do 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:09.920 you think kill JFK. 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.680 Like any murder mystery, you start with the suspects who 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.720 had the motive. To answer that, you have to understand 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.960 that the JFK that was murdered in nineteen sixty three 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.919 was a completely different JFK than the one who was 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:32.040 elected in nineteen sixty. When Kennedy was running for president 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:35.440 in nineteen sixty, we were in the throes of the Cold. 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:39.080 War with the Soviet Union. The stakes could not be higher. 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.480 To understand that time, Rob suggested we talk to John Meacham. 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:49.560 He's a historian and a Pulitzer Prize winner, and he 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:51.520 talks to us about what it was like back in 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:55.600 nineteen sixty when the nation was paralyzed by the looming 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.080 threat of nuclear war with Soviet Russia. 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:02.119 The fear was, and it was an ambient fear, that 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:07.280 a small war, a small conflict one place, could be 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:09.679 lead to a chain reaction where there would be total 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.200 war that would be planet wide. The images we all 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.320 have in our heads we have in our heads for 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:20.480 a reason. Kids weren't getting under desks to practice in 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:22.720 the event of a nuclear holocaust. 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:25.080 Was it terrifying as a kid? I mean, were the 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:27.320 kids like panicking when there were those drills? 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:29.240 Yeah, it was terrifying. 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.080 This is the time that we were born in the 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.200 whole idea of the domino theory that if one country 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.920 went communist, another would go and then another and we'd 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.679 be overtaken by the Soviet Union. 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:47.160 So then, John, did that existential anxiety lead to kind 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:52.080 of a fervor against communism, almost to the point like that, 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.119 you know, someone could be seen as a trader if 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.520 they weren't against communism enough. 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:59.320 That's the motive force of McCarthyism. 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:05.360 McCarthyism comes from Congressman Joe McCarthy in the early nineteen fifties. 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.560 He pioneered this atmosphere of fear in the US that 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:12.239 communists were everywhere. Your neighbor could be a communist, your 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:15.920 child's teacher could be a communist. People said, better dead 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.400 than red. That's what things were like when Kennedy started 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:20.880 to become a national figure. 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:24.439 When John Kennedy runs for president in nineteen sixty, he 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:28.320 wants to be sure that the Democratic Party is seen 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.720 as as tough on communism as the Republican Party. 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:37.199 I can remember the central question of the debate was 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.479 could Kennedy in his youth stand up to Nixon and 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:44.960 show his bona fides in terms of fighting communism? 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.040 Robi're Wright, the question was, what are you going to 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:54.480 do about Cuba? In nineteen fifty nine, the Cuban Revolution 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:59.439 had broad Castro to power, Batista had fallen. Suddenly you 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:03.040 had the pos ability of what would emerge as a 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.680 communist country ninety miles off the coast of Florida. 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.520 As an American of Cuban descent, I'll say that it's 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:14.960 impossible to overstate the importance of Fidel Castro's communist Cuban 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:19.280 Revolution in this moment in history. That put Cuba in 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:23.480 alignment with the Soviets, which scared America, considering the island 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:26.920 was only ninety miles off the coast of Florida. The Cubans, 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:30.639 who were anti Castro and anti communists fled to the 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:35.600 harbors of America, which welcomed them. Meanwhile, the Soviets were 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.760 busy strategizing over how to take advantage of their new beachhead. 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:44.160 Any misstep towards Cuba could have resulted in an all 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:45.560 out nuclear war. 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:50.359 And people wanted to note, was Kennedy up to the job. 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:54.760 I do not shrink from this responsibility. I welcome it. 0:20:55.680 --> 0:21:02.080 Let every nation know, whether use us well or ill, 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:10.040 that we shall pay any price, there any burden, meet 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:17.600 any hardship, support any friend, op post any foe to. 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.439 Assure the survival and the success of liberty. 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:25.919 Prior to Kennedy taking office, the Eisenhower administration planned a 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:29.600 secret attack on Cuba called the Bay of Pigs, and 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:31.760 the objective was simple. 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:36.520 Go into Cuba, start a revolution, toppel Castro, and bring 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:38.879 Cuba back on side, if. 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:40.119 You will, with the free world. 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:42.960 The key to the Bay of Pigs was to make 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:47.600 it look like this was solely expatriate Cubans and that 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:49.639 the Americans had no involvement. 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:55.160 Turns out, the Cuban people were not sitting around waiting 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.200 for a bunch of exiles to come and do. 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:00.000 This, just the opposite. 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:03.520 People still talk about the Bay of Pigs today because 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:07.239 of how much of flaming failure it was. Here's what 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:11.080 ended up happening. When the Cuban exiles invaded the island, 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:14.480 they were met with a fierce defense from Cubans on 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:15.440 the ground. 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:19.840 The CIA had urged Kennedy to send air support, but 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:23.240 Kennedy he told them before the attack there would be 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:27.160 no US fingerprints on this operation. And with no US 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:31.639 air support, the exiles were left stranded and they were slaughtered. 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:35.040 And now you got to remember, Kennedy inherited the Bay 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:38.639 of Pigs from the previous administration. He had only been 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:41.639 in office for about three months, and he went along 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:44.200 with the wishes of the CIA to show you how 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:47.399 tough he was. But after that disaster, he started to 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:51.120 suspect that the CIA was trying to bully him into 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:52.480 a war that he didn't want. 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:57.439 He felt betrayed, he felt stabbed in the back, disappointed, 0:22:57.720 --> 0:22:59.720 and disenchanted. 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:05.280 Publicly, he took full responsibility for the failure, but privately, 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:09.080 after the Bay of Pigs, people heard him say that 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:13.239 he would splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:18.720 scatter it to the winds. The CIA didn't know that 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:23.160 he wanted to tear them apart, but they would soon. 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.040 Rob said that if we were doing a podcast about JFK, 0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:43.080 we've got to talk to the guy behind the independent 0:23:43.119 --> 0:23:48.400 blog jfkfactx dot org. Since twenty twelve, Jefferson Morley has 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:52.600 published a new development to the story nearly every single day. 0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:55.160 It's where a lot of JFK investigators go to get 0:23:55.160 --> 0:24:00.080 their information. Morley takes the fire hose of information and 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:04.960 distills it into digestible bites. In another life, he reported 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:07.080 on the CIA for the Washington Post. 0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:10.880 Kennedy and the CIA were very alienated after the Bay 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:14.680 of Pigs, and he eventually gets rid of Alan Dulles. 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:17.320 When you look up Alan Dulles, the guy has a 0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:21.320 nickname the Godfather of the CIA. He was the first 0:24:21.440 --> 0:24:25.199 civilian director of the CIA. He had close ties to 0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:29.200 the oil industry, the finance industry. President Kennedy fired him 0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:31.080 after the Bay of Pigs disaster. 0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:36.880 Then comes to Cuban Missile crisis. From CIA surveillance planes 0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:40.680 discover the Soviet missiles are being installed in Cuba. 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:44.760 So this risk between the CIA and the president is 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:48.680 happening in the backdrop of the Cuban missile crisis YEP. 0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:52.760 After the Bay of Pigs disaster, Kennedy's relationship with the 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:57.359 Soviet Union grew hostile. The Soviet threat was becoming much 0:24:57.440 --> 0:25:01.360 more direct and Khrushchev was not happy about the Bay 0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:05.640