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Speaker 1: What you're about to hear is one of the most

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Speaker 1: incredible stories I've ever heard, and it's going to be

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Speaker 1: getting quickly. So let me first introduce myself. I'm Solidad O'Brien.

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Speaker 1: I'm a journalist. A few months ago, the film director

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Speaker 1: Rob Reiner called me and he asked me what I

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Speaker 1: knew about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, a

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Speaker 1: crime that happened sixty years ago. I told him I

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Speaker 1: thought I knew the story. It turns out I don't.

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Speaker 2: The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest

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Speaker 2: murder mystery in American history. I was sixteen years old

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Speaker 2: when it happened, and it has never left me. In

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Speaker 2: order to understand the magnitude of this world changing event,

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Speaker 2: you have to start at the end of the story.

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Speaker 1: That's Rob. He knows a thing or two about telling

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Speaker 1: a good story. He's the creative powerhouse behind movies like

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Speaker 1: The Princess Bride, When Harry Met Sally, stand By Me,

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Speaker 1: and Spinal Tab.

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Speaker 3: That's just to name a few.

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Speaker 4: John F.

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Speaker 2: Kennedy was president at a time when the world was

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Speaker 2: on the brink of nuclear war, and he tried to

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Speaker 2: put us on a path towards peace.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't even born when this happened, but the way

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Speaker 1: Rob tells it, it's like it just happened, because, in

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Speaker 1: a way, it's a story that's not over.

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Speaker 2: In order to understand what really happened on November twenty second,

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty three, we're going to start at the end

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Speaker 2: of the story with a paunchy, middle aged nightclub owner.

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Speaker 4: His name is Jack Ruby.

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Speaker 2: Ruby is wandering through a crowd in a parking garage.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at a photo of this moment, I'd probably

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Speaker 1: be thinking who is this guy?

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Speaker 3: I mean, he doesn't look like he's a cop or

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Speaker 3: a reporter.

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Speaker 4: And it's not just any parking garage.

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Speaker 2: It's the parking garage of the Dallas Police headquarters. Hundreds

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Speaker 2: of reporters are gathered to photograph Lee Harvey Oswald, the

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Speaker 2: ex marine who is suspected of assassinating President John F. Kennedy,

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Speaker 2: on a street in Dallas in broad daylight. Oswald is

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Speaker 2: being moved to the county jail, and Ruby is there

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Speaker 2: to witness it, or so it seems.

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Speaker 4: Oswald appears.

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Speaker 2: The police are escorting him down a hallway toward a

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Speaker 2: car that will take him to the county jail where

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Speaker 2: he'll wait for trial. The trial where America will finally

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Speaker 2: get an answer to the question who would want to

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Speaker 2: kill the President of the United States. Oswald is in handcuffs,

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Speaker 2: He's flanked by officers. Ruby weaves his way to the

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Speaker 2: front of the crowd. People at the station know Ruby

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Speaker 2: officers would often come to his local club, so Ruby

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Speaker 2: is able to easily position himself just a few feet

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Speaker 2: away from Oswald. Suddenly, Ruby reaches into his pocket and

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Speaker 2: removes a thirty eight caliber Colt Cobra revolver. He lurches

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Speaker 2: forward and from point blank range, fires into Oswald's stomach.

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Speaker 4: Oswald crumples to the ground.

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Speaker 2: One of the policemen who recognizes Ruby says, Jack, you

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Speaker 2: son of a bitch.

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Speaker 1: The entire incident is caught on live TV. Americans around

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Speaker 1: the country watch stunned as the man suspected of killing

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Speaker 1: their beloved president is himself murdered. It's astounding, and I

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Speaker 1: just have to ask, Rob, you were watching this live?

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Speaker 2: I was, and like the rest of the nation, I

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Speaker 2: was in shock. I had so manyquestians who was Oswald?

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Speaker 2: Did he actually kill the president?

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Speaker 4: And why? Why would Ruby, a local nightclub owner take

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Speaker 4: it upon himself to kill Oswalt.

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Speaker 1: I know Jack Ruby says he did it because he

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Speaker 1: wanted to spare Jackie Kennedy the grief of returning to

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Speaker 1: Dallas for Oswald's trial.

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Speaker 2: Right and the sun sets in the east. Knowing what

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Speaker 2: we know about Jack Ruby's mob connections, that is ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: To understand what Ruby was doing, all you have to

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Speaker 2: do is listen to what Oswald said the day before

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Speaker 2: he was shot. It comes down to this one sentence,

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Speaker 2: and he said it to the press, and it's been

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Speaker 2: over sixty years and you cannot get that sentence out

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Speaker 2: of your head.

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Speaker 3: I'm just a patsy. Usually criminals will say you got

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Speaker 3: the wrong guy. But a patsy exactly.

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Speaker 2: A patsy is a pawn who takes the fall for

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Speaker 2: somebody else. It this way, if Oswald is a patsy,

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Speaker 2: when he goes to trial, he's going to reveal who

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Speaker 2: set him up. Jack Ruby was there to silence Oswald,

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Speaker 2: to hide the truth about what really happened and who

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Speaker 2: really assassinated the president.

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Speaker 3: That leaves me with so many questions.

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Speaker 2: It should when you think of Ruby as a loose

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Speaker 2: thread and you start to pull on it, others come loose.

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Speaker 1: Okay, for sixty years you've been pulling at those threads.

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Speaker 1: But there have been lots of investigators, lawyers, journalists who've

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Speaker 1: come to conclusions. You don't think conclusions means case closed.

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Speaker 4: I don't.

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Speaker 2: And in this podcast, I'm going to tell you why.

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Speaker 1: This is who killed JFK sixty years later? What can

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Speaker 1: we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in American history?

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Speaker 1: And why does it still matter today? I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Solidad O'Brien. President John Fitzgerald Kennedy was the youngest president

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Speaker 1: in US history when he took office in nineteen sixty one.

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Speaker 1: He was also the youngest US president to die when

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Speaker 1: he was killed by an assassin's bullet almost three years

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Speaker 1: later on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three. He was

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Speaker 1: forty six years old. On that fateful day, his flight

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Speaker 1: arrived at Dallas love Field at eleven thirty seven am.

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Speaker 5: And here is the President of the United States. How

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Speaker 5: the crowd is after they're going wild?

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Speaker 6: The President in very obvious good spirits, and the President

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Speaker 6: and his wife are going to be visible all through Dallas.

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Speaker 1: I think we all know this story Kennedy was riding

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Speaker 1: in an open car motorcade through the city of Dallas.

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Speaker 1: It was time to start campaigning for reelection, so he

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Speaker 1: rode in the back of a convertible with his wife

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Speaker 1: Jackie by his side, before an adoring crowd.

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Speaker 5: President's card now turning onto Element Street, and it appears

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Speaker 5: as though nothing has happened in the motorcade route. Something

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Speaker 5: I repeat, harp happened and the motorcade route park and

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Speaker 5: Hospital has been a by then by the bear guns

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Speaker 5: got boon.

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Speaker 1: We all know what happened because a man named Abraham Supruder,

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Speaker 1: a local Dallas dressmaker, filmed it all on his eight

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Speaker 1: millimeter camera. In the film, we see the motorcade entering

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Speaker 1: Daily Plaza just before twelve thirty in the afternoon. Suddenly

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Speaker 1: the president is shot in the neck. Seconds later we

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Speaker 1: see the fatal shot.

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Speaker 3: To his head.

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Speaker 1: Then the President's limousine races to Parkland Hospital.

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Speaker 7: Kennedy apparently got ahead.

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Speaker 8: He fell fate down in back seat of his.

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Speaker 9: Car the flash Apparently official.

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Speaker 6: President Kennedy died at one pm Central Standard.

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Speaker 1: Time, approximately seventy minutes later. Lee Harvey oswae Xus Marine

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Speaker 1: is arrested at a movie theater. I think I have

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Speaker 1: about as much knowledge of this case as the average person,

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Speaker 1: which is the basic Oswald kills Kennedy, Ruby kills Oswald,

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Speaker 1: and then there are like a hundred theories trying to

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Speaker 1: answer why. Sixty years later, we all still want to

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Speaker 1: know why. How old were you when Kennedy was assassinated.

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Speaker 2: I was sixteen, and like everybody else, I remember exactly

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Speaker 2: where I was when I heard. I was in my

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Speaker 2: physics class in high school. I remember one of the

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Speaker 2: students walked in whispered in the ear of my physics teacher,

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Speaker 2: and he turned to the class and he said, I

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Speaker 2: have some terrible news. They sent us all home from

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Speaker 2: school and we turned on our televisions and we watched

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Speaker 2: non stop. It felt like we lost our father. It's stunning,

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Speaker 2: and you have to understand that we all heard that

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Speaker 2: Kennedy was assassinated at the same time. We all saw

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Speaker 2: Lee Harvey Oswald killed by Jack Ruby.

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Speaker 4: At the same time.

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Speaker 2: So now you have a country of you know, one

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Speaker 2: hundred and seventy million people at the time. I can't

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Speaker 2: remember exactly all experiencing something at the same time. It's

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Speaker 2: not like it was thrown up on social media and

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Speaker 2: repeated over and over, and people saw it at different times.

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Speaker 2: It is a profound collective trauma. In nineteen sixty five

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Speaker 2: sixty six, the war in Vietnam was ramping up. Kennedy

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Speaker 2: had talked about getting us out of Vietnam.

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Speaker 4: I was of draft age.

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Speaker 2: So my generation got very upset by what had happened

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Speaker 2: to Kennedy because it directly impacted us, and so we

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Speaker 2: really started distrusting the government. There was a phrase an

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Speaker 2: expression that we had during that period, and it was

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Speaker 2: never trust anybody over thirty.

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Speaker 1: I've noticed that people always seemed to frame the murder

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Speaker 1: of JFK as the moment Americans started distrusting the US government. So,

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Speaker 1: as someone who's not white, I can tell you people

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Speaker 1: of color had plenty of reasons not to trust the

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Speaker 1: government long before Kennedy died. When this happened, at the

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Speaker 1: height of the Civil Rights Movement, black people were already

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Speaker 1: speaking about systemic oppression at the hands of government. Young

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Speaker 1: white men may have started distrusting the government because now

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Speaker 1: they knew what it felt like too. But I have

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Speaker 1: to tell you, I'm probably as interested in the mystery

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Speaker 1: and the conspiracy theories around this murder as most people

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Speaker 1: who grew up in the aftermath. But Rob feels a

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Speaker 1: sense of urgency to understand the truth, and I want

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Speaker 1: to understand why it matters so much. So I'm hosting

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Speaker 1: this podcast with Rob, who's a storyteller and whose work

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Speaker 1: is known for digging deeply into the American consciousness. I

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Speaker 1: think Rob's fascination with this case and all the work

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Speaker 1: he's done to find answers does exactly that. So Rob,

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Speaker 1: tell me about the moment when you started to think, hmm,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I can trust the official story.

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Speaker 2: Well, I maybe. I was nineteen at the time. I

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Speaker 2: was performing at a club in San Francisco. It was

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Speaker 2: called The Hungry Eye with my friend Larry Bishop, who

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Speaker 2: was Joey Bishop's son, and we were opening for Carmen McCrae,

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Speaker 2: now mort Saul, who was a brilliant political satirist. He

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Speaker 2: was playing in the smaller room at the club, and

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Speaker 2: so when we would finish our set, we'd go and

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Speaker 2: listen to him and more. You know, at that time

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Speaker 2: he wasn't doing as normal routine. All he talked about

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Speaker 2: was the Kennedy assassination and how the government was lined

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Speaker 2: to us, so I started reading up on it, and

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Speaker 2: the first book I remember reading was a book by

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Speaker 2: Mark Lane called Rush to Judgment. And the more I read,

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Speaker 2: the more the Warren Commission report just fell apart.

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Speaker 1: The Warren Commission refers to the government's official story, which

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Speaker 1: was published in nineteen sixty four following a ten month

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Speaker 1: investigation into what happened on that day in Dallas. They

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Speaker 1: declared Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, that he killed the

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Speaker 1: president with shots from a rifle he fired from the

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Speaker 1: sixth floor of a building called the Texas School Book Depository,

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Speaker 1: which overlooked the president's passing motor cade. I know about

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Speaker 1: the Warren Report because that's what I was taught in school.

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Speaker 1: A lone gunman killed the president. And that was decades

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Speaker 1: after Rob watched a skeptical Mortsaul. For decades, journal and

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Speaker 1: civilian sleuths had continued their own intricate investigations into the story,

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Speaker 1: and there are now separate theories that the mob murder

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Speaker 1: JFK or the CIA set it all up, or that

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Speaker 1: a population of Cuban exiles did it. There are so

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Speaker 1: many theories. Where do you begin.

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Speaker 2: You're right, I mean, there's a lot to sift through,

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Speaker 2: and it wasn't until twenty fifteen. I was making a

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Speaker 2: film LBJ with Woody Harrelson, and the producer Matt George,

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Speaker 2: introduced me to Dick Russell. Now, Dick Russell wrote a

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Speaker 2: book called The Man Who Knew Too Much, and after

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Speaker 2: one conversation with Dick, all the pieces of the puzzles

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Speaker 2: started to fall into place.

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Speaker 1: The Man Who Knew Too Much is about a CIA

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Speaker 1: agent named Richard case Nagel who knew Lee Harvey Oswald.

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Speaker 1: Dick Russell was a sportswriter in nineteen seventy five when

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Speaker 1: he stumbled upon Nagel, and since then Dick's written three

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Speaker 1: books about the sassination of JFK, making the investigation one

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Speaker 1: of his principal beats as a journalist. Rob shared his

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Speaker 1: fascination and after that one conversation they became a team.

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Speaker 2: So we went to Dallas. We visited Dally Plaza, and

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Speaker 2: we talked to as many people as we could who

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Speaker 2: were still alive that were there that day. I talked

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Speaker 2: to bul Frasier, who was a guy who drove Oswell

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Speaker 2: to work that day. We talked to forensics experts, We

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Speaker 2: met with CIA asset named Tosh Plumley, who flew CIA

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Speaker 2: agent E Howard Hunt and mobster Johnny ROSSELLI to Dallas

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Speaker 2: that day and was positioned on the south knoll of

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Speaker 2: Daily Plaza when the shots were fired. We tried to cover,

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Speaker 2: as they say, the waterfront.

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Speaker 1: Those are all names that will make sense later in

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Speaker 1: the series when we dive into the mystery of it all,

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Speaker 1: But for now, Rob invited me to sit down with

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Speaker 1: him and Dick Russell.

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Speaker 3: You know, Dick, I'm always.

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Speaker 1: Interested in helped people's obsessions be again. Is it wrong

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Speaker 1: to say that you've had an obsession about this assassination? Yeah?

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Speaker 10: I think it's absolutely true. I mean I have had

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Speaker 10: an obsession with it for many years, and in the

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Speaker 10: mid nineteen seventies, when I was living in New York

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Speaker 10: and freelancing for a lot of different newspapers and magazines,

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Speaker 10: I spent pretty much two full years on this trail.

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Speaker 10: It was in nineteen seventy six, but a Senate committee

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Speaker 10: headed up by Idaho Senator Frank Church exposed a trove

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Speaker 10: of CIA secrets that prompted the formation of the House

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Speaker 10: Select Committee on Assassinations. So the HSCA reopened the investigation

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Speaker 10: into Kennedy's death, and a couple of years later, they

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Speaker 10: determined that Lee Harvey Oswald had not acted alone, but

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Speaker 10: the murder was likely a result of quote, a conspiracy.

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Speaker 10: They didn't say anything specific about who else was involved.

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Speaker 10: They just vaguely said others left the door open.

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Speaker 3: What do you want people to walk away from this

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Speaker 3: podcast with?

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Speaker 2: I want the American people to know the truth, to

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Speaker 2: be presented with all the facts, and that those facts

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Speaker 2: will lead them to only one conclusion.

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Speaker 4: This was a conspiracy.

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Speaker 2: And if people don't know the truth about their government,

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Speaker 2: the foundation of our democracy starts to crumble.

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Speaker 1: So the reason that we're here, the reason that you

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Speaker 1: are doing this is you want the truth.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I want the truth, And to contradict a character

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Speaker 2: in a film I directed, I think we can handle

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Speaker 2: the truth.

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Speaker 1: So I guess I would say I'm doing something a

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Speaker 1: little bit different here. I'm sort of taking off my

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Speaker 1: journalist's hat for this one, because you're really the one

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Speaker 1: who's done so much of the reporting on this story,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to let you lead me in this

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Speaker 1: journey pushback where I think I need to push back,

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Speaker 1: But largely I guess I'm trying to understand your point

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Speaker 1: of view.

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Speaker 3: So I guess we start with the biggie, who do

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Speaker 3: you think kill JFK.

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Speaker 2: Like any murder mystery, you start with the suspects who

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Speaker 2: had the motive. To answer that, you have to understand

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Speaker 2: that the JFK that was murdered in nineteen sixty three

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Speaker 2: was a completely different JFK than the one who was

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Speaker 2: elected in nineteen sixty. When Kennedy was running for president

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Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty, we were in the throes of the Cold.

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Speaker 4: War with the Soviet Union. The stakes could not be higher.

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Speaker 1: To understand that time, Rob suggested we talk to John Meacham.

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Speaker 1: He's a historian and a Pulitzer Prize winner, and he

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Speaker 1: talks to us about what it was like back in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty when the nation was paralyzed by the looming

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Speaker 1: threat of nuclear war with Soviet Russia.

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Speaker 7: The fear was, and it was an ambient fear, that

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Speaker 7: a small war, a small conflict one place, could be

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Speaker 7: lead to a chain reaction where there would be total

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Speaker 7: war that would be planet wide. The images we all

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Speaker 7: have in our heads we have in our heads for

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Speaker 7: a reason. Kids weren't getting under desks to practice in

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Speaker 7: the event of a nuclear holocaust.

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Speaker 1: Was it terrifying as a kid? I mean, were the

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Speaker 1: kids like panicking when there were those drills?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was terrifying.

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Speaker 2: This is the time that we were born in the

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Speaker 2: whole idea of the domino theory that if one country

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Speaker 2: went communist, another would go and then another and we'd

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Speaker 2: be overtaken by the Soviet Union.

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Speaker 1: So then, John, did that existential anxiety lead to kind

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Speaker 1: of a fervor against communism, almost to the point like that,

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Speaker 1: you know, someone could be seen as a trader if

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Speaker 1: they weren't against communism enough.

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Speaker 4: That's the motive force of McCarthyism.

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Speaker 1: McCarthyism comes from Congressman Joe McCarthy in the early nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 1: He pioneered this atmosphere of fear in the US that

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Speaker 1: communists were everywhere. Your neighbor could be a communist, your

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Speaker 1: child's teacher could be a communist. People said, better dead

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Speaker 1: than red. That's what things were like when Kennedy started

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Speaker 1: to become a national figure.

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Speaker 7: When John Kennedy runs for president in nineteen sixty, he

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Speaker 7: wants to be sure that the Democratic Party is seen

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Speaker 7: as as tough on communism as the Republican Party.

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Speaker 4: I can remember the central question of the debate was

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Speaker 4: could Kennedy in his youth stand up to Nixon and

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Speaker 4: show his bona fides in terms of fighting communism?

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Speaker 7: Robi're Wright, the question was, what are you going to

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Speaker 7: do about Cuba? In nineteen fifty nine, the Cuban Revolution

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Speaker 7: had broad Castro to power, Batista had fallen. Suddenly you

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Speaker 7: had the pos ability of what would emerge as a

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Speaker 7: communist country ninety miles off the coast of Florida.

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Speaker 1: As an American of Cuban descent, I'll say that it's

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Speaker 1: impossible to overstate the importance of Fidel Castro's communist Cuban

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Speaker 1: Revolution in this moment in history. That put Cuba in

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Speaker 1: alignment with the Soviets, which scared America, considering the island

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Speaker 1: was only ninety miles off the coast of Florida. The Cubans,

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Speaker 1: who were anti Castro and anti communists fled to the

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Speaker 1: harbors of America, which welcomed them. Meanwhile, the Soviets were

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Speaker 1: busy strategizing over how to take advantage of their new beachhead.

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Speaker 2: Any misstep towards Cuba could have resulted in an all

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Speaker 2: out nuclear war.

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Speaker 7: And people wanted to note, was Kennedy up to the job.

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Speaker 8: I do not shrink from this responsibility. I welcome it.

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Speaker 8: Let every nation know, whether use us well or ill,

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Speaker 8: that we shall pay any price, there any burden, meet

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Speaker 8: any hardship, support any friend, op post any foe to.

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Speaker 11: Assure the survival and the success of liberty.

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Speaker 2: Prior to Kennedy taking office, the Eisenhower administration planned a

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Speaker 2: secret attack on Cuba called the Bay of Pigs, and

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Speaker 2: the objective was simple.

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Speaker 7: Go into Cuba, start a revolution, toppel Castro, and bring

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Speaker 7: Cuba back on side, if.

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Speaker 4: You will, with the free world.

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Speaker 2: The key to the Bay of Pigs was to make

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Speaker 2: it look like this was solely expatriate Cubans and that

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Speaker 2: the Americans had no involvement.

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Speaker 7: Turns out, the Cuban people were not sitting around waiting

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Speaker 7: for a bunch of exiles to come and do.

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Speaker 3: This, just the opposite.

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Speaker 1: People still talk about the Bay of Pigs today because

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Speaker 1: of how much of flaming failure it was. Here's what

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Speaker 1: ended up happening. When the Cuban exiles invaded the island,

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Speaker 1: they were met with a fierce defense from Cubans on

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Speaker 1: the ground.

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Speaker 2: The CIA had urged Kennedy to send air support, but

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Speaker 2: Kennedy he told them before the attack there would be

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Speaker 2: no US fingerprints on this operation. And with no US

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Speaker 2: air support, the exiles were left stranded and they were slaughtered.

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Speaker 2: And now you got to remember, Kennedy inherited the Bay

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Speaker 2: of Pigs from the previous administration. He had only been

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Speaker 2: in office for about three months, and he went along

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Speaker 2: with the wishes of the CIA to show you how

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Speaker 2: tough he was. But after that disaster, he started to

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Speaker 2: suspect that the CIA was trying to bully him into

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Speaker 2: a war that he didn't want.

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Speaker 7: He felt betrayed, he felt stabbed in the back, disappointed,

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Speaker 7: and disenchanted.

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Speaker 2: Publicly, he took full responsibility for the failure, but privately,

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Speaker 2: after the Bay of Pigs, people heard him say that

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Speaker 2: he would splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and

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Speaker 2: scatter it to the winds. The CIA didn't know that

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Speaker 2: he wanted to tear them apart, but they would soon.

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Speaker 1: Rob said that if we were doing a podcast about JFK,

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Speaker 1: we've got to talk to the guy behind the independent

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Speaker 1: blog jfkfactx dot org. Since twenty twelve, Jefferson Morley has

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Speaker 1: published a new development to the story nearly every single day.

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Speaker 1: It's where a lot of JFK investigators go to get

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Speaker 1: their information. Morley takes the fire hose of information and

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Speaker 1: distills it into digestible bites. In another life, he reported

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Speaker 1: on the CIA for the Washington Post.

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Speaker 12: Kennedy and the CIA were very alienated after the Bay

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Speaker 12: of Pigs, and he eventually gets rid of Alan Dulles.

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Speaker 1: When you look up Alan Dulles, the guy has a

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Speaker 1: nickname the Godfather of the CIA. He was the first

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Speaker 1: civilian director of the CIA. He had close ties to

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Speaker 1: the oil industry, the finance industry. President Kennedy fired him

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Speaker 1: after the Bay of Pigs disaster.

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Speaker 12: Then comes to Cuban Missile crisis. From CIA surveillance planes

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Speaker 12: discover the Soviet missiles are being installed in Cuba.

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Speaker 1: So this risk between the CIA and the president is

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Speaker 1: happening in the backdrop of the Cuban missile crisis YEP.

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Speaker 2: After the Bay of Pigs disaster, Kennedy's relationship with the

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Speaker 2: Soviet Union grew hostile. The Soviet threat was becoming much

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Speaker 2: more direct and Khrushchev was not happy about the Bay

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Speaker 2: of Pigs and A year later, pictures surface that show

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Speaker 2: that the Soviets are installing nuclear missiles in Cuba.

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Speaker 7: They bring the pictures to Kennedy. He's in his bedroom

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Speaker 7: on the second floor of the White House.

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Speaker 3: That's John Meacham.

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Speaker 7: He's having breakfast. They bring it to him, and the

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Speaker 7: first thing he says is how could they do this

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Speaker 7: to me? He calls Robert Kennedy, the Attorney General, who says,

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Speaker 7: with great Ciceronian eloquence, sit, shit, shit, the sons of

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Speaker 7: bitches Russians.

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Speaker 4: A few days later, the President shares the news with

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Speaker 4: the nation.

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Speaker 9: Good evening, my fellow citizens. Within the past week, unmistakable

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Speaker 9: evidence has established the fact that a series of offensive

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Speaker 9: missile sites is now in preparation. The purpose of these

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Speaker 9: bases can be none other than to provide a nuclear

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Speaker 9: strike capability against the Western hemisphere.

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Speaker 13: That moment must have seemed surreal. It was unbelievable nuclear

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Speaker 13: missiles fired from Cuba could reach Washington in like twenty minutes.

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Speaker 7: The President then convenes something called ExCom, the Executive Committee

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Speaker 7: of the National Security Council. Every possible decision maker would

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Speaker 7: be in the West Wing more or less around the

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Speaker 7: clock for thirteen days.

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Speaker 2: Behind closed doors, the conversations between various advisors and military

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Speaker 2: leaders get very heated and dangerous. The military leaders saw

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Speaker 2: the opportunity that they had been waiting for to invade

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Speaker 2: Cuba and make sure that the Soviets understood the superiority

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Speaker 2: of the United States.

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Speaker 4: General Curtis LeMay is there.

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Speaker 7: He's the cigar chompiing sort of slim Pickens guy from

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Speaker 7: Doctor Strangelove. At one point he looks at the young

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Speaker 7: president and says, you're in a hell of a fix,

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Speaker 7: mister President. And Kenny says, what did you say? And

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Speaker 7: LeMay repeats it, You're in a hell of a fix,

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Speaker 7: mister president.

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Speaker 4: There was a strict division forming.

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Speaker 12: There were fifteen people in favor of immediate attack, and

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Speaker 12: there were nine in favor of some kind of diplomacy track.

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Speaker 3: Here's Jefferson Morley again.

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Speaker 12: The majority of those people in that first week said

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Speaker 12: just attack missiles, destroy them, invade, throw out Castro, and

442
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 12: let's get this thing over with. And Kennedy was in

443
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 12: the minority.

444
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,120
Speaker 2: Kennedy was frightened that he was hours away from having

445
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 2: to push the button in a war that would have

446
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 2: killed hundreds of millions of people.

447
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:48,959
Speaker 9: I call upon Chairman Khrushow to haul and eliminate this clandestine,

448
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 9: reckless and provocative threat to world peace and the stable

449
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 9: relations between our two nations.

450
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 10: Kennedy writes a letter directly to kruz Job that's dick.

451
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 10: They have been writing letters to each other since Kennedy

452
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 10: took office. The letters started out as diplomatic, but with

453
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 10: the start of the Cuban missile crisis, they take on

454
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 10: a new tone. In the midst of the crisis, Khrushchov

455
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 10: writes Kennedy back, saying quote, we must not succumb to

456
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 10: intoxication and petty passions. I have participated in two wars,

457
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 10: and I know that war ends when it is rolled

458
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 10: through cities and villages everywhere, sowing death and destruction. Kennedy

459
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 10: was a war veteran. He was a guy who nearly

460
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 10: lost his life many times. He was not impressed by

461
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 10: the generals who were telling him to go risk other

462
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 10: people's lives. Khrushchov finishes his letter by saying, quote, you

463
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 10: ought not now to pull the ends of the rope

464
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 10: in which you've tied the knot of war, because the

465
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 10: more the two of us pull, the tighter that knot

466
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 10: will be tied, so let us take measures to untie

467
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 10: that knot.

468
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: It almost feels like these letters are a way for

469
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: them to see clearly the one thing that they have

470
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: in common. Right, they're both standing in a room with

471
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: people they don't trust. I think Kennedy understands that, just

472
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: like him, kruse Ship also has a military apparatus that's

473
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: ready to take nuclear action, and maybe that's what neither

474
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: of these leaders really want.

475
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 7: Ultimately, the way we got out of it was through compromise.

476
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 7: Through negotiation, we agreed to remove the missiles from Turkey.

477
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 7: Khrushchev agrees, He stands up to his own hardliners in

478
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 7: Moscow and agrees to take the missiles out of Cuba.

479
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 12: And Kennedy begins to rethink the Cold War, and he

480
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 12: goes from being a pretty conventional Cold War politician to saying,

481
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 12: we got to end this thing. We need a strategy

482
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 12: for peace.

483
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 7: It's not nostalgic to say that the Kennedy of sixty

484
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 7: one was not the Kennedy of sixty two, and that

485
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 7: Kennedy of sixty two was not the Kennedy of sixty.

486
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 2: Fe Kennedy gave a speech at American University in June

487
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: of sixty three is now known as the Peace Speech,

488
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: and it marks his transformation from cold warrior on the

489
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: campaign trail to a peacemaker who is blazing his own path.

490
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 11: I have therefore chosen this time in place discuss a

491
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 11: topic on which ignorance too often abounds and the truth

492
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 11: too rarely perceived. And that is the most important topic

493
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 11: on Earth, peace for in the final analysis, our most

494
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 11: basic common link here's that we all inhabit this small planet.

495
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: The speech was so influential that it even reached the

496
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: Soviet Union, where was translated and broadcast across the country.

497
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: Khrushcheff called it quote the greatest speech by any American

498
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 2: president since Roosevelt. Kennedy plans to pull a thousand troops

499
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: out of Vietnam. He drafts a plan for complete military

500
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: withdrawal by nineteen sixty five. He issues a limited ban

501
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: on nuclear testing, all part of a comprehensive plan for

502
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 2: world peace. This infuriated the military hardliners in his administration.

503
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 12: The national security leadership in general was disturbed by Kennedy's

504
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 12: handling of the missile crisis. The Joint chiefs were furious,

505
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 12: and the opposition within the CIA was the most bitter

506
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 12: and virulent in the CIA station in Miami. Castro remained

507
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 12: in power, which the Joint chiefs regarded as intolerable.

508
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: And Castro was public enemy number one to the United States.

509
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 4: He was.

510
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: Now let's jump forward to November fifth, nineteen sixty three.

511
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 2: Now this is one year after the Cuban missile crisis

512
00:31:53,160 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: and two weeks before Kennedy gets shot. Atwood was a

513
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: deputy US ambassador in the Kennedy administration, and he gets

514
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 2: a secret invitation from none other than Fidel Castro. Castro

515
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: wants to talk to Kennedy about the potential of a

516
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: peace agreement between the two countries. Now listen to how

517
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: this all goes down. What he's saying is Atwood now

518
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 2: has an invitation to go down and talk with Fidel

519
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: Castro about a change in relations with the United States.

520
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: Can we get Atwood off the payroll before he goes?

521
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: In other words, Kennedy is saying that these would be

522
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: secret conversations. Two weeks after that phone call with Atwood,

523
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 2: Kennedy writes a note and leaves it on his desk

524
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: in the Oval office, and the note says, check in

525
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: with Atwood.

526
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 4: About the Cuba initiative.

527
00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: So Kennedy is backchanneling with Khrushev and now planning to

528
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:01,719
Speaker 1: do the same thing with Castro.

529
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 4: Right he's out on his own.

530
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: He's trying to find a path to peace, the complete

531
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 2: opposite of what the CIA in the military wanted. So

532
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: Kennedy leaves a note on his desk. Then he departs

533
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: the White House for a campaign trip to Dallas. The

534
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 2: date is November twenty second, nineteen sixty three.

535
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 6: President and his wife are going to be visible all

536
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 6: through Dallas.

537
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 5: President cards now turning onto Elm Street, and it appears

538
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 5: to something has happened in the motor Kate route. Something

539
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 5: I repeeve hall happened in the motor Kate route.

540
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 7: Kennedy apparently got him head. He fell the down in

541
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 7: back seat of his car.

542
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 9: The flash apparently official.

543
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 6: President Kennedy died at one pm Central Standard time.

544
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 10: Christ Jeov's son Sergei wrote in his memoirs that when

545
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 10: his father heard the news, he fell to his and sobbed,

546
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 10: and all over Russia the church bells were ringing. In

547
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 10: JFK's memory. Right after the President's funeral, Jackie Kennedy sat

548
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 10: down to write a letter to Nikita kruz Job.

549
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: Jackie writes, So, now, in one of the last nights

550
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: I will spend in the White House, in one of

551
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: the last letters I will write on this paper at

552
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: the White House, I would like to write you my message.

553
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: I send it only because I know how much my

554
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: husband cared about peace, and how the relation between you

555
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: and him was central to this care. He used to

556
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: quote your words in some of his speeches. Quote in

557
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: the next war, the survivors will envy the dead. You

558
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: and he were adversaries, but you're allied in a determination

559
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: that the world should not be blown up. I can

560
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 1: understand why people are still asking questions. The president had

561
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 1: just alienated the CIA and the million terry at the

562
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: height of the Cold War, and then he's murdered, and

563
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: then the guy who suspected of murdering him is also murdered.

564
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: You have to ask is this a coincidence? And if

565
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: it isn't, a rational person would ask, well, then what

566
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: really happened?

567
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 3: So I guess my.

568
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 1: Next question is how in the world would the potential

569
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: conspirators be able to pull something like that off.

570
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 4: Well, like so many political stories, it's all about the

571
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 4: cover up.

572
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 3: Next time on Who Killed JFK?

573
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 14: I came away with the feeling that agencies of the

574
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 14: United States government have an interest in preventing a full investigation.

575
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 1: We explore why so many Americans question the official investigation

576
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: into the assassination of President Kennedy.

577
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 4: That's the shot that blew off his head. It's an

578
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 4: as the horrifying thing I've ever seen.

579
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: Who Killed JFK is hosted by Rob Reiner and me

580
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 1: Solidad O'Brien. Our writer is David Hoffman, with research by

581
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: Dick Russell. Our story editors are Rob Reiner and Julie Pignero.

582
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Julie Pinneto. Our producers are Tristan Nash,

583
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 1: Dick Russell, Michelle Goldfein, and Amari Lee. Our editors are

584
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: Tristan Nash, Julie Pigneto, and Marcus de Laudo. Our project

585
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: manager is Carol Klein. Our associate producer is emilse Kiros. Mixing,

586
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: mastering and sound design by Ben la Julie and archival

587
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: audio in this episodeanks to Dick russell Odyssey the Six

588
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: Floor Museum, Veritone Geeddy, Images, research and fact checking by

589
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: Girl Friday and emilse Kiros. Our consulting producer is Rozanne Galliini.

590
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: Business affairs by Hennan Nadea and Jonathan Furman. Recorded in

591
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: part at CDM Studio and Fourth Street Recording Studio. Show

592
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: logo by Lucy Quintanilla. Production assistants by Rocodel Prior and

593
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: Grace Barron, and our executive producers are Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner,

594
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: Matt George, Jason English, David Hoffman and Me Solidad O'Brien

595
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Johonig, Rose Arsa and Dan Storper. If

596
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and review

597
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: on your favorite podcast platform. Who Killed JFK as a

598
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: production of Solidad O'Brien Productions an iHeart Podcasts