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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from house stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey you, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,

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Speaker 1: There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, There's Jerry. The papers have

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Speaker 1: been shuffled, their plumb and true. It's time for Stuff

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Speaker 1: you Should Know the podcast. You know it's not plumb

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Speaker 1: and true. My gut. Anything in my house I went to, Uh,

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Speaker 1: all of my house had those gross, cheap, hollow gore

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Speaker 1: doors you know. Oh yeah, you know they're not doors.

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Speaker 1: I mean they function as doors. If there's air in

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Speaker 1: your door, then it's not a door. So one by

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Speaker 1: one I've been replacing them with wood, solid doors. And

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Speaker 1: I went and did that for our bedroom, and man,

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Speaker 1: oh man, was it frustrating. Oh hanging them because they

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Speaker 1: didn't want to hang. It's the worst, like nothing straight, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that looks good, and then it goes to shutting like whack. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it was straight, you know, a hundred years ago,

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Speaker 1: you know, and then over time the house settled in

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Speaker 1: and now it's it's doing its own thing. So I

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Speaker 1: had to shave the door in so many places. It

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Speaker 1: looks like a doctor seue store. Oh cool, you should

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Speaker 1: plant one of those weird doctor Seue's palm trees in

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Speaker 1: your yard. To really complete it, it's called marijuana. So

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you just said marijuana, chuck, because you have

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Speaker 1: every right to say the word marijuana in this country.

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Speaker 1: It's a free country. You can say the name of

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Speaker 1: a plant, you know, people, people do say and have

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Speaker 1: long said, this is a free country. I can say

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Speaker 1: whatever I want. And free speech is one of the

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Speaker 1: basic hallmarks of what makes America free country. Freedom of speech. Um.

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Speaker 1: But America is not the only country that enshrines a

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Speaker 1: freedom of speech protection and it's charter. Yeah, there are

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Speaker 1: varying degrees of it in many many countries. In some

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Speaker 1: countries there's not very much. In other countries, there's a lot.

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Speaker 1: In the US is arguably one of the leaders, although

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Speaker 1: some people point to Europe's and we'll talk about those later.

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Speaker 1: But some people point to Europe's free speech protections and say, there,

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Speaker 1: those people know what they're doing. Um. In the US,

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Speaker 1: if you look at free speech, you go to the

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Speaker 1: Bill of Rights. Typically it's a great place to start,

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Speaker 1: and you will find you will find in the First

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Speaker 1: Amendment of the Constitution, which is the first part of

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Speaker 1: the Bill of Rights. It says in there specifically that

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Speaker 1: Congress will make no law right abridging the freedom of speech.

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Speaker 1: It's as simple as that. It doesn't say unless speech

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Speaker 1: says this, unless somebody says that, unless you really don't

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Speaker 1: like the guy there is no. It's absolute. It's an

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Speaker 1: absolute protection of freedom of speech. Yeah, and that goes on.

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Speaker 1: I think, Uh, it's pertinent to mention abridging the freedom

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Speaker 1: of speech or of the press, or the right of

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Speaker 1: the people to peaceably to assemble founding Father JFK and

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Speaker 1: to petition the government for a redress of grievances. I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry that on those, Ted Kennedy, because we're all very important,

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Speaker 1: you know, sure they are, Oh yeah, right to a symbol,

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Speaker 1: it's a pretty important one. Well yeah, And because we

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Speaker 1: had just left the country, uh one independence from Britain,

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Speaker 1: who at the time was like no, no, no no, we

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Speaker 1: we very much want to squash any dissenting opinions about

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Speaker 1: the ground. Uh. And people are getting thrown in jail

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Speaker 1: for that kind of stuff in the colonies. They were

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Speaker 1: trying to quash a rebellion, and that's a pretty important

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Speaker 1: part of it. If you're if you're a monarchy, an

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Speaker 1: absolute monarchy that wants to keep the rebels in check.

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Speaker 1: You just say you can't say certain things, and if

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Speaker 1: you do, we're going to throw you in jail. It

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Speaker 1: has a freezing effect. Yeah, or they're weird punishments, like

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Speaker 1: when they said stick a sock in it. They went, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: and they went no, really, stick a sock in it

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Speaker 1: by law for eight months and tape it, tape it shut.

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Speaker 1: With my dirty sock in your mouth, my dirty sock,

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Speaker 1: my wool sock from my wet boots. Um. Quickly though,

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Speaker 1: I think we should point out that as we were

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Speaker 1: going through this, like I realized you could have an

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Speaker 1: entire podcast called the Ins and Outs of Free Speech. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like a series, a whole show. You have a whole

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Speaker 1: show about it, not just an episode. So this is

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Speaker 1: you know, this is an overview as we do that

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Speaker 1: is going to pick and you know, talk about various

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Speaker 1: court cases over the years, rulings and writings of judges,

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Speaker 1: um That are pertinent. But man, it's deep and wide. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is, especially considering that again, when you go to

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Speaker 1: the Bill of Rights, it just says Congress can't pass

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Speaker 1: any laws that abridge the freedom of speech. They're like,

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Speaker 1: why does he keep writing right there? And chuck. Not

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Speaker 1: only though, was it this in retaliation reaction to um,

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Speaker 1: the British monarchy. It was also a big part of

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Speaker 1: Enlightenment thinking as well. The protection of freedom of speech

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Speaker 1: was a huge aspect of the Enlightenment. And you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously the United States was founded during the Enlightenment and

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Speaker 1: in as part of the Enlightenment. It was an Enlightenment experiment, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like we don't want to restrict thought or expression. Um.

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Speaker 1: And you know, some might say that if if the

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Speaker 1: Britain hadn't been so intent on squashing dissenting opinion, then

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Speaker 1: we might not have been so Enlightenment aside, so uh,

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Speaker 1: heck bent on ensuring those rights. So maybe it all

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Speaker 1: worked out for the best. Yeah, I think so, And

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Speaker 1: Britain came around. Right. You can still get a sock

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Speaker 1: thrown in your mouth, can you? I don't know, man,

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Speaker 1: it's on the book still. I just don't know if

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Speaker 1: they do it anymore. This socks are much nicer now,

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Speaker 1: that's right. They're a happy socks. So since you have

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Speaker 1: this very broad um protection of freedom of speech, right,

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Speaker 1: but then there's nothing more to be said about anybody

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Speaker 1: can say anything they want. Not quite true. It isn't

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Speaker 1: true because we have three branches of government here in

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Speaker 1: the US. We do. Yeah, it turns out I thought

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Speaker 1: that was just one. You got the executive branch, which

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Speaker 1: is the one I think you're thinking. Uh. Then you

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Speaker 1: have the legislative branch Congress, okay, which is actually separate.

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Speaker 1: And then you have the third branch, the judicial branch. Yes,

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Speaker 1: they are equal and important branch. And with um the

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Speaker 1: congressional the legislative branch. They pass laws, people go out

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Speaker 1: and break laws, People get convicted, people appeal their convictions,

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Speaker 1: and in some cases those convictions and the laws are

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Speaker 1: questionable enough or interesting enough that it will eventually make

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Speaker 1: it to a high enough court that the court will

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Speaker 1: rule on whether or not that law holds up to

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Speaker 1: any constitutional standard. Over time, freedom of speech has been

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Speaker 1: shaped and expanded and paired away, um by the courts

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Speaker 1: here in the United States. Yeah. Like maybe more so

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Speaker 1: than any other kind of segment of law, or maybe not.

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Speaker 1: But I'm gonna just as as an complete um armchair attorney,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say that perhaps free speeches has been challenge

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Speaker 1: more and whittled down and defined more than maybe any

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Speaker 1: other aspect of law. Yeah, because one of the big

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Speaker 1: things that the courts did with freedom of speech was

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Speaker 1: to really expand the definition of speech. Yeah, it's not

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Speaker 1: just words that come out of your mouth or even right. No,

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Speaker 1: Like it can be a T shirt that says f

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Speaker 1: the police, or could say um, um uh yeah, hug

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Speaker 1: the police. Sure, somebody might find that offensive. Who knows,

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Speaker 1: thank you for coming to my rescue this thing. It

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Speaker 1: could be a billboard, it could be um, it could

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Speaker 1: be a pamphlet you hand out, it could be an act,

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Speaker 1: symbolic act, flag burning, that was a big one, remember

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Speaker 1: that in the eighties. Absolutely or or refusing to say

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Speaker 1: the pledge allegiance that was in the I think World

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Speaker 1: War two, Yeah, which is actually now protected as because

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Speaker 1: free speech can also mean the freedom to not speech. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because up until I think in the Supreme Court ruled

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Speaker 1: on kids were being forced to say the pledge whether

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Speaker 1: they wanted to or not. In the Supreme couiside, no,

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Speaker 1: we think freedom of speech is really freedom of expression.

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Speaker 1: And if you don't feel like saying the pledge, you're

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Speaker 1: free to express yourself in that way. Yeah. And as

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Speaker 1: you'll find Um. Throughout the show will kind of probably

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Speaker 1: say this over and over. Freedom of speech doesn't have

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Speaker 1: a lot to do with something you might find offensive

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Speaker 1: or repugnant. Um. Generally, the US has sided on protecting

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Speaker 1: that right regardless of whether or not you're offended or

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Speaker 1: you think it's awful. And that's kind of what makes

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Speaker 1: America great in a lot of ways, is you know what,

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Speaker 1: who are we to decide what ud you know, to

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Speaker 1: legislate morality essentially and what we'll get into all this

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Speaker 1: with obscenity and all that stuff and pornography. But um,

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Speaker 1: even when it comes to like, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to say the pledge because of this reason, the

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Speaker 1: courts have said, you know what, that that you're right,

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Speaker 1: this is America. We may not like it, but that

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Speaker 1: you're right. Yeah. And the whole reason behind this too,

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Speaker 1: it's it's easy to just take it for granted, especially

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Speaker 1: if you were raised in the United States, that you

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Speaker 1: have that right. Who cares what the basis of it is.

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Speaker 1: You can say basically whatever you want, you know, Um,

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Speaker 1: But when you really dig into why the founders sought

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Speaker 1: to protect this and why it's been upheld and defended

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Speaker 1: so much, over the years. Is because the idea is

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Speaker 1: that if you are free to speak your mind without

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Speaker 1: fear of being put in jail or killed or beaten

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Speaker 1: by a mob, um, that you are going to introduce

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Speaker 1: new ideas to the marketplace of ideas. And through this

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Speaker 1: you're gonna have an exchange with other people, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of times it's going to be contentious and it's

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Speaker 1: going to be ugly, but over time things can evolve

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Speaker 1: and get better and change for the better through this

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Speaker 1: exchange of ideas. And to ensure that the engine of

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Speaker 1: cultural evolution continues unabated, you have to have the free

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Speaker 1: exchange of ideas. And to have the free exchange of ideas,

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Speaker 1: you have to have protection of free speech. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: if not, you have the government being the one saying, well, no,

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Speaker 1: here are all the ideas right exactly, and um, don't

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Speaker 1: worry about having any of your own. Yeah, these are these,

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Speaker 1: these are the ones. Yeah. And in a lot of cases,

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Speaker 1: those things can come across as really great ideas. UM.

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Speaker 1: Here in the US, up until the UH, I think

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Speaker 1: the mid fifties or early sixties, there were laws on

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Speaker 1: the books where it said you can't you can't speak

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Speaker 1: ill of groups like you can't say anything about um,

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Speaker 1: Jewish people or Muslim people or any group. You can't

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Speaker 1: say these things. It's speech was not protected rights. It

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Speaker 1: was called group libel. And that actually sounds pretty good

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Speaker 1: in a lot of in a lot of senses, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't be talking trash about entire groups of people,

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Speaker 1: because it does it can lead to two problems. But

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Speaker 1: that same prohibition on speech came to be exploited by

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Speaker 1: white Southerners who were in power in the fifties, who said,

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Speaker 1: Martin Luther King, he's trying to incite violent social change

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Speaker 1: with his his radical ideas. Somebody needs to uh put

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Speaker 1: a duct tape over that guy's mouth, stick a sock

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Speaker 1: in it. He doesn't have the freedom to say this.

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Speaker 1: And actually, our right to say hateful things about other

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Speaker 1: people was a direct result in the United States of

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Speaker 1: the Civil rights movement UM being protected by the courts

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Speaker 1: against white Southerners who sought to UM to uh squash

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Speaker 1: their their speech. So hate speech, yeah, is due in

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Speaker 1: part in part to Dr Martin Luther King and and

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Speaker 1: trying to advance civil rights. In a weird turn of events, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really was. Uh. And in Europe, and we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about this a little more. Um. Like you said, some

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Speaker 1: people say they have nailed it. They don't protect hate speech,

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Speaker 1: and you can't be uh, you can't deny the Holocaust publicly,

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Speaker 1: and you can't um say, you know Jewish people, you

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Speaker 1: know x y z or this group of people are

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Speaker 1: like this. Um. Some people say that's you know, that's

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Speaker 1: kind of right on the money. We have taken a

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Speaker 1: different tech here in the US. Right in Europe does

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Speaker 1: that because they have a pretty recent example of what

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Speaker 1: can happen if you do have freedom of speech, and

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Speaker 1: that totalitarian government can hijack that freedom of speech and

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Speaker 1: use it as propaganda to incite hatred amongst an entire

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Speaker 1: population um or even as as um this this one

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Speaker 1: author put it to prepare them for extermination, just basically

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Speaker 1: saying like, hey, everybody, get those guys. There are the

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Speaker 1: reasons you don't have jobs. They're the rapists. They're the

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Speaker 1: people who are who are going to kill you and

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Speaker 1: steal your your family's wealth and well being. So get

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Speaker 1: rid of them. Turn on them. And that's the whole

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Speaker 1: point of saying, nobody can incite hatred through speech. In

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Speaker 1: its these European democracies. Um, because the state has done

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Speaker 1: it before. Yeah, and we all see what happened there. Um,

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Speaker 1: should we take a break. I feel like that's a

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Speaker 1: good intro, broad, all encompassing, passionate, all encompassingly. All right, Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll come back here in a minute and get down

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Speaker 1: to the nitty gritty of some of these court cases. Okay,

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Speaker 1: sk alright, trend um. So if you want to go

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Speaker 1: back a little bit to Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

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Speaker 1: Son of one of the famous Justices the United States. Uh,

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, but very specifically because everyone

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Speaker 1: has sort of heard the the old thing that, Um,

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Speaker 1: you can't yell fire in a movie theater and say

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Speaker 1: that's free speech, because that will in the case of

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineteen case Shink the United States, UM,

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Speaker 1: Charles Schenk was arrested for distributing material basically that said, hey, um,

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Speaker 1: don't the the US draft military draft is bs um,

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Speaker 1: don't do it. Fight against it. Uh. And they said,

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Speaker 1: you know what, that's that's espionage actually, And that went

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Speaker 1: all the way to Supreme Court, and they did not

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Speaker 1: protect that right because, in the words of Oliver one

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Speaker 1: to Holmes, they said, did the words create a clear

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Speaker 1: and present danger that they will bring about substantive evils?

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Speaker 1: Congress has a right to prevent and that sort of

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Speaker 1: in line. And later on in the same ruling, is

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Speaker 1: talking about yelling fire in a theater as an example, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, you can't do that because I don't in

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Speaker 1: sight panic if people get stomped. Right, And and in

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Speaker 1: this case this kind of set the precedent for or

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Speaker 1: the tone for all free speech cases to follow. Um

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Speaker 1: is weighing the the individual right versus the public good

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Speaker 1: or in this case, the individual right versus UM creating

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Speaker 1: some problem or evil. As he put it, that Congress

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Speaker 1: has a right and an interest to prevent a danger

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Speaker 1: to the country, right. UM. In this case, really what

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Speaker 1: they were saying was they were suppressing criticism of a

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Speaker 1: government program, the Draft. Um. And then but Holmes was

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Speaker 1: fine with that. But within a year I think he

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Speaker 1: saw his UM his test, you know, does it present

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Speaker 1: a clear and present danger being used in a way

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Speaker 1: just to squaw dissent when a bunch of anarchists who

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Speaker 1: were just generally advocating the overthrow of the government. Um,

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Speaker 1: rather than need to do this on this date at

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Speaker 1: this time, Um, they were used, they were convicted under

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Speaker 1: the test that Homes created. So he took what was

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Speaker 1: called the Great Dissent and actually dissented against his own

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Speaker 1: former test and said, no, it has to present a

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Speaker 1: clear and present danger, present meaning like it's about to

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Speaker 1: happen or you know the time that it's going to happen,

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Speaker 1: and it's a clear danger, like this is what's going

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Speaker 1: to happen. Because this person said that, So that that

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Speaker 1: ultimately became the format for um what we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: in a little bit, which is inciting violence. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: that's not to say that, um like the ruling there,

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Speaker 1: like you said, was about a clear and present danger,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily the fact that Charles Schenk was against the war,

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Speaker 1: because we have a long history in this country of

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Speaker 1: being able to uh be a wartime dissenter and talk

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Speaker 1: about it and be protected. Um. During Vietnam War, there

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Speaker 1: was a man who had he went to an l

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Speaker 1: A courthouse and he had a jacket that said, you know,

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Speaker 1: F the draft, but it was really spelled out, it's

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Speaker 1: so ironic that we're censoring ourselves in this one. But

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Speaker 1: uh F the draft and they um, as you will

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Speaker 1: always almost always see here. These people are, like you said,

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Speaker 1: usually arrested, convicted, and then that's when they're well, maybe hippies,

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Speaker 1: you never know. And then that's when the courts take

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Speaker 1: it up and potentially either protect or don't protect the speech.

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Speaker 1: In this case, the court said, no, you're within your

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Speaker 1: right because someone could see your jacket and then not

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Speaker 1: look at it, right, And that's a good point. Like

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Speaker 1: you you can just look away from the guy's jacket, right.

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Speaker 1: You can also not take the pamphlet that the guy's

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Speaker 1: handing you. You can also you can also not rent

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Speaker 1: the movie that um that you find offensive. You can

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Speaker 1: also turn the TV station. You can also turn the

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Speaker 1: radio down. You can also not go to the website.

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Speaker 1: You can turn our podcast off. To me, well, you shouldn't,

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Speaker 1: so you could. To me, the alternative of not not

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Speaker 1: receiving some speech that you find offensive like being able

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Speaker 1: to get away from it. That to me is the

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Speaker 1: ultimate test for for whether speech should be restricted or not.

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Speaker 1: And since you can in virtually any situation get away

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Speaker 1: from speech except maybe skywriting, we should probably really regulate

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Speaker 1: sky riding pretty pretty toughly. You can look down at

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Speaker 1: the ground, but I guess you could. Yeah, so as

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Speaker 1: long as you can get away from it, or more

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Speaker 1: to the point, shear shield your children from it. I

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Speaker 1: don't think it should be. I don't see any reason

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Speaker 1: for it to be um entailed for skywriting. You would

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Speaker 1: have to argue in court that it is such a

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Speaker 1: delight to children that they can't help but look like

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Speaker 1: you would have to physically restrain them and put blinders

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Speaker 1: on them, exactly, and that's unreasonable, your honor right. You

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Speaker 1: write a curse word and then do a drawing a barney,

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Speaker 1: and that would satisfy that is Barney still a thing?

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Speaker 1: So I think barney will always be a thing. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Uh So. Over the years have been, like

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Speaker 1: we said, a lot of court cases that have kind

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Speaker 1: of whittled away and defined not whittled away, you know,

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Speaker 1: because that molded shaped, molded and shaped. Uh So. Marvin

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Speaker 1: Old Marv ran an adult book business, and he what

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Speaker 1: he did was he sent out mailer's. He liked to

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Speaker 1: send out a mailer right, and um these mailers would

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Speaker 1: show up at houses where you know, something, my kid

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Speaker 1: might read it, or someone easily offended might read it,

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Speaker 1: or not so easily offended might read it. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: there was a mom who uh this was her adult son. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a mom and her grown son who's the

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Speaker 1: manager of I guess the family restaurant. And they childlike

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Speaker 1: maybe he was his eyes were burning. Um, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: maybe his mom was just just treated him like a kid.

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Speaker 1: Who knows. But they said, you know what, you know,

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Speaker 1: this guy shouldn't be mailing these randomly to just whoever.

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Speaker 1: We certainly don't want it, so we're gonna call and complaint.

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Speaker 1: And Marvin Miller ended up getting arrested for um obscenity.

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Speaker 1: And this is a huge This turned out to be

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Speaker 1: a huge case. Yeah, and went all the way to

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, and um, yeah, it was. It was

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Speaker 1: what you call a um, what do you call that? Landmark?

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Speaker 1: Landmark watershed? Watershed. I couldn't think of it. I was like,

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Speaker 1: we did a podcast on it recently. It's an Indigo

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Speaker 1: Girls song. That's right. It was a watershed case. Miller v. California,

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Speaker 1: And I'm gonna say V instead of versus. I think

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Speaker 1: we've talked about that before, right, Um, it makes you

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Speaker 1: sound more legal easy, yeah, and everyone likes being legal eazy. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy three. Like I said, the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: heard the case and they found that his speech did

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Speaker 1: not qualify for for protection. Um. But here's the hitch.

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Speaker 1: They didn't rule on the obscenity. They ruled that, hey,

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Speaker 1: we're protecting kids, and you can't just mail this stuff

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Speaker 1: to a house because kids live in houses, and so

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Speaker 1: it was an appropriate content for children. Um. And what

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Speaker 1: it did as well is is it specified a test

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Speaker 1: for defining obscenity. Which, boy, over the years, this has

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Speaker 1: been a really tough thing, and it seems like over

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Speaker 1: the years of courts round me don't want any part

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Speaker 1: of that. Now. If there's one thing too that as

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Speaker 1: far as restricting free speech goes, that drives me up

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Speaker 1: the wall, it's obscenity. The Court should not have anything

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Speaker 1: to do with obscenity, and mostly they don't wanting on it. Right.

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Speaker 1: There's this great quote from Hugo Black, who as of

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Speaker 1: this podcast has become my favorite Supreme Court justice of

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Speaker 1: all time. He said in Michigan versus State of New York, Um,

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Speaker 1: I wish once more to express my this is my

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Speaker 1: Hugo Black, By the way, I wish once more to

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Speaker 1: ex pressed my objections to saddling this court with the

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Speaker 1: irksome and an inevitably unpopular and unwholesome task of finally deciding,

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Speaker 1: by a case by case, site by site personal judgment

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Speaker 1: of the members of this court what pornography whatever that

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Speaker 1: means is too hardcore for people to see or read. Yeah, basically,

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Speaker 1: they were tired of sitting in court and looking at

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Speaker 1: like pictures of bestiality at least, and ruling on this

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Speaker 1: stuff like what about this one? What about this one?

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Speaker 1: What about this? The thing is they were looking at

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Speaker 1: like pulp pulp books, Like Michigan was a guy who

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Speaker 1: had a publishing house of pulp books that showed like

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Speaker 1: B D S. M or lesbianism or masturbation or whatever

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Speaker 1: on the cover. He's like, this is this is actually

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Speaker 1: pretty nice? Right, They're like, man, it's a perk of

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Speaker 1: the job, but we shouldn't have to do it anyway.

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Speaker 1: And so the idea that that um, the Court is

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Speaker 1: ruling what is obscene is and what is not is

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Speaker 1: it's legislating morality, clear and just clearly it's legislating morality.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think the Court has any any right

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Speaker 1: to that at all, but they have they have a

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Speaker 1: long tradition of it, and over time they've actually come

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Speaker 1: to protect pornography. Um, with the exception of child pornography,

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Speaker 1: which you're not really gonna You're gonna be hard pressed

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Speaker 1: to find anybody who argues for freedom of speech as

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Speaker 1: far as child pornography goes. UM. And then obscenity, which

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Speaker 1: is which came out of this, the three pronged tests

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Speaker 1: to determine what's obscene came out of that Miller the

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Speaker 1: California case, and it says this. It says that if

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Speaker 1: the average person using contemporary community standards can look at

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Speaker 1: something and says that this arouses the prurient interest, does

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Speaker 1: it meaning sexy time? Yeah? Uh, that's that's the wronged one.

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Speaker 1: And you have to satisfy all three of them. Is

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Speaker 1: this patently offensive sexual content or patently either one? I

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Speaker 1: say patently and I got that from Mr Burns. Oh well,

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Speaker 1: I say, I say patently like Mr Burns does. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then the final one is a big one. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's whether the work, taken as a whole, lack serious literary, artistic,

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Speaker 1: or potentially or political or scientific value. Right. That's that's subjective,

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Speaker 1: extremely subjective, Like who who it literally says if it's artistic, right?

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Speaker 1: Who who says what's art and what's not? Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: very famously, uh Justice Potter Stewart the very very famous

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Speaker 1: line when asking about obscenity or pornography said I know

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Speaker 1: what when I see it? Right? But they they have

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Speaker 1: long said like we we one of them said, we

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Speaker 1: may be trying to define the indefinable. Yeah, it is indefinable.

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Speaker 1: You ask a hundred people what pornography is and you'll

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Speaker 1: get a hundred different answers. And so as a result,

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Speaker 1: some courts have said, uh, yeah, this community, the jurors

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Speaker 1: decided that this is obscene. So people go to jail

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Speaker 1: for depicting sexual acts or something like that that some

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Speaker 1: jurors in that town found um distasteful. And as America

424
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: has has long had a very puritanical hang up with

425
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 1: sex and nudity. H violence, bring it on, but yeah,

426
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: nude bodies, shame, shame. I think that's probably my issue

427
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 1: with it too, is we're super like, we'll expose kids

428
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 1: to violence, extreme violence at a very young age. But sexuality, Hey,

429
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: you wait until you're you wait until your parents are dead.

430
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: You understand wonders for the therapy industry. Though. That's true,

431
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 1: So hold on check there's one other thing, the other

432
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: part that the other problem I have with the um

433
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 1: defining obscenity is that there's no national standard. The courts

434
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: even said it would be impossible to come up with

435
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: a national standard. So if Miller had been tried in

436
00:26:55,119 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: a community of swingers who are like into that stuff, um,

437
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: he probably would have gotten off right. But because he

438
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: was tried in a community that decided that no, this

439
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: is this is obscene, it was deemed obscene, whereas in

440
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: another community it may not have been deemed obscene. That's

441
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: no test. Well yeah, and that that became a big

442
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: deal at one point because they basically, um, the law

443
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: said that community standards are like, you can't have a

444
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: national standard because what what the someone thinks in Skoky,

445
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: Illinois is not what in Sin City, Las Vegas. They

446
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: have an entirely different definition of obscenity and pornography, you know,

447
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 1: And they're right. Yeah, I guess they are right, which

448
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: is which is why I you I to me, it's

449
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: one or the other. Either get rid of anything that

450
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: could possibly be considered obscene or you allow it all.

451
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: So obscenity. It's obscene. It is. Well, we'll get more

452
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: into a sinity too, But um, there are a lot

453
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: of other facets of free speech that you might not

454
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 1: really think about. In two thousand thirteen, that was a

455
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 1: case Bland v. Roberts, where there were these two dudes,

456
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 1: um that work for a sheriff department. You know, sheriff's

457
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: are elected. They were running for office, and they were

458
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: fired for commenting and liking um on an opponent's Facebook page,

459
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 1: which you know, this gets into in the digital age

460
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: and the Internet age, a whole different slew of questions

461
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: to be answered, and they appealed that case and then

462
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: in one actually yeah, Bland v. Roberts. As a result,

463
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: Facebook likes are considered protective protected free speech under the

464
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: First Amendment. Now yeah, but ibronic, well maybe not ironically,

465
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: but Facebook and social media in general you can also

466
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: I mean it's at their discretion whether or not they

467
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: take something down, and you can't say, well, that's free speech,

468
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, this is our our private room.

469
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 1: Essentially is our home. And inside a private home you

470
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: can tell someone to shut up private home. Private companies. Yeah,

471
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: social media platform like if you show up to work

472
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: in h F the police shirt. They can fire you

473
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: or tell you to change it. And if you say no, no, no,

474
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: like this is my free speech, so go no, this

475
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: is my business. This is not a free speech. So

476
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: like like the mall, yeah, oh yeah, that's right, poor

477
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: Victor Gruing Uh. And here's the thing too is and

478
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: this isn't really section in our notes. But I get

479
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: kind of a riffin here. I get kind of bugged

480
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: these days with I think a lot of people have

481
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: the notion that freedom of speech means also freedom from consequence,

482
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: and those are two different things. Like freedom of speech

483
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: means that you were not going to be well, you

484
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: might even be arrested and convicted, but eventually it will

485
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: be overturned. You'll be vindicated. But if a business or

486
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: a comedian or a TV show does something that people

487
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: find offensive or provocateur YouTube and someone wants to pick

488
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: at them and shut them down or boycott them, and

489
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: they cry free speech, it's like, you know, you know,

490
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: you said that you got away with it. You're not

491
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: in jail, doesn't mean it won't be consequences. Well, yeah,

492
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: the right to protest is enshrined in the same amendment

493
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: free speech. But I think, yeah, I hear a lot.

494
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: It seems like more and more of these days where people, um,

495
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: people whine about the consequences of their own free speech

496
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: and that's not enshrined in the Constitution. There there very

497
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: likely will be consequences, right, people will hate you maybe,

498
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: But it's like you said, though you know the the

499
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: the it's there to protect the unpopular opinion. There's this guy,

500
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: Um who's a an expert on free speech at Penn State.

501
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: I believe um. He said, we have a first Amendment

502
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: to protect unpopular expression or the minority viewpoint, because we

503
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: don't need a constitution to protect the majority what the

504
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: majority thinks. The majority takes care of itself. It's good point.

505
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: It's the people who everybody else hates and what they

506
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: have to say. Um, that is protected by the constitution. Yeah.

507
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: And uh, Harvard law professor Noah Feldman, in a very

508
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: Unharvard law like way, said, Uh, if your feelings are hurt,

509
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: then that's your problem, snowflake. You didn't say Harvard like JFK.

510
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,239
Speaker 1: He didn't say snowflake. I was kidding, no, but he he.

511
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: What he was pointing out was basically the sentiment behind

512
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,719
Speaker 1: free speech in the United States that as long as

513
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: you are not physically harming somebody, you like, emotional harm

514
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: is whatever. We're not even gonna it's not even gonna register. Well,

515
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: although that one article you sent that op ed there

516
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: there was the guy that argued that emotional harm was

517
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: worse than physical harm and had a longer lasting impact. Um,

518
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: So you know there are two sides to every argument there. Well,

519
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons why Europe has said no

520
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: hate speech. It's harmful. Yeah, yeah, Like even if it

521
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: isn't physically harmful, it's emotionally it's an intellectually harmful. It's

522
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: it's not good. All right, So we've dabbled in an obscenity. Uh,

523
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: one of the other and we'll talk a little bit

524
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: more about it. But one of the other things that um,

525
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: you can you can have insulting speech, but that there's

526
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: something called fighting words, um that is not protected and

527
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: it's can be difficult to determine. And again over the

528
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: years the courts have tried to do so. But in

529
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine that was kind of a landmark case

530
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: Brandenburg v. Ohio, where Clarence Brandenburg was at a clan

531
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: rally in Ohio and said, we are we're not a

532
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: revengeent organization. But if our president, our Congress, our Supreme

533
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: Court continues to suppress the white Caucasian race, please, it's

534
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: possible that there might have to be some revengeance taken.

535
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: So they should have jailed him for grammar. Revengeance is,

536
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: of course not a real word. Make neither us revenge it.

537
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: Although I think it's in a video game now. Someone said, yeah, uh,

538
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: revengeance too, don't. I don't think it's called that. Revengeance

539
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: two or parentheses? S I C. Right? What does that

540
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: stand for? Again? Uh? Sick? I can't remember, Like that's

541
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: so sick. They got it wrong, right, I don't. I

542
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: don't know how. Yeah, somebody will send it in, people

543
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: who tend to write it after the stuff we right,

544
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: we don't usually use it ourselves. Yeah, it's funny, though,

545
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: I have this thing, you know, just the weird quirky

546
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: things that everyone sort of does in their head in life.

547
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: Whenever I see s I C. Written in an article,

548
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: I always try and think of what word either they

549
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: got wrong or were replacing in the article, you know,

550
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: to make make more sense. Well, no, they use it too,

551
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: because well, if it's a misspelling, or if it's not

552
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: a word, it's basically the writer or the editor saying,

553
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: this guy got it wrong, not me, yeah yeah, but

554
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: or am I thinking of a different was it? What

555
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: is it? When they um, that's just when they put

556
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: it in brackets and they put like there or something

557
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: like oh okay. The person lets it out sick also

558
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: goes in brackets, but it's basically saying I'm aware that

559
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: this is misspelled, to show what a dummy this guy is.

560
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: I think I do it in both cases, like if

561
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: it's a made up word, I'll try and think of

562
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: what like they meant, or like the other one where

563
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: there's just a parentheses and they just basically add something

564
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: to make it more sense, I try and think of,

565
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: like what did they say to begin with? It's a

566
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: weird thing. No, I know what I mean in my

567
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: head right now I have for your eyes only you're

568
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what I'm thinking. The brains brain

569
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: does some terrible stuff. I have that in my head

570
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: now too, because you came in singing it for your

571
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: Why do you It doesn't make any sense? It doesn't.

572
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: I haven't heard the song in decades, a week long

573
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: ear worm from a song you haven't heard in decades?

574
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: Was it in a dream? I don't think so. You're

575
00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: dreaming about she and Easton Again. That's a good movie though, Uh,

576
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: that's the Connery one on it? No, No, that was

577
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: Roger Moore. Are you sure? Yeah? Sure, I'm thinking was

578
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: Sean Connery's last one? Yeah? All right? Maybe right here

579
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 1: go to the map for that one. All right, um,

580
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 1: all right, Getting back to Brandenburg, the the clan member

581
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: who who didn't know how to talk right, Um, he

582
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 1: didn't talk good. He was arrested for advocating violence, and

583
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 1: he won. Supreme Court decided in his favor, and thus

584
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: began the history, the long history of the United States, saying,

585
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: you know what, the clan wants to have a rally

586
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: out in the public town square and they apply for

587
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: their permit, you gotta let him do it. But again

588
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 1: that actually that the clans hate speech being protected was

589
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: lumped together and came out of the civil rights movements

590
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: freedom of speech being protected as well. Yeah, because they

591
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 1: were like, well, hey man, stokely Carmichael says that you know,

592
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: we gotta like take take the take control from the

593
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: whiteis rise up and take control. Like that's hate speech

594
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: and the supreme courses, you know what, you're right, and

595
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: that's protected. So so it is what the clan saying

596
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 1: or Illinois Nazis and Skokie second time Skokies made an

597
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: appearance in this episode. Yeah, why not a third um

598
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 1: the usual suspects. So yeah, anyway, I think what you're

599
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: you're saying is as a result, hate speech is has

600
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: a decades long tradition of being protected at any and

601
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: all costs unless you are using it to incite violence.

602
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: And that ties in to that um original prohibition on

603
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: free speech that Oliver Wendell Holmes came up with, is

604
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: that it presents a clear and present danger. So rather

605
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: than using that specifically to incite violence, you basically have

606
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: to be saying it's not enough to um to say, uh, like,

607
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: we black people need to rise up and take control

608
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 1: of the United States, and if it has to be violent,

609
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: it has to be violent. But we can't live like

610
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: this anymore. Right If if Stokely Carmichael saying something like that,

611
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 1: or Malcolm X is saying something like that, that is

612
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: protected speech even though it makes a lot of people,

613
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: or it made a lot of people uneasy to hear

614
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, and they said, hey, they're trying

615
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: to start a race war. It's still protected speech. On

616
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 1: the other hand, if you said, or stokely Carmichael said

617
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: everybody needs to go get the shotguns and we're all

618
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: gonna be here on Tuesday and we're gonna take the

619
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: streets Tuesday afternoon, that would not be protected because he

620
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: would be directly inciting violence. Yeah, what what are the

621
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: two things that likely? And it has to the advocacy

622
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: for violence has to be um directed to inciting or

623
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: producing imminent lawless action, and then it has to be

624
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: likely to incite or produce such actions. So it's it

625
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 1: has to it has to be happening at some point

626
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: that you can point to next Tuesday, something that's not

627
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: vague or indefinable, like we should do this in the

628
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: future if um, if we're not granted greater rights. So

629
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: it has to be something specific and it has to

630
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: be likely to produce that effect. Right, So if somebody

631
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: is a great order and the people they're telling to

632
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,479
Speaker 1: get their shotguns all own shotguns at home, that would

633
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: probably make it likely. And then a few years after

634
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: UM that case. Another one has the Indiana from Ene

635
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: to find imminent a little further and it said an

636
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: advocacy of a legal action at some indefinite future time

637
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: that's protected. So likely and eminent. Yes, interesting? All right,

638
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 1: well let's take a likely and eminent break and we'll

639
00:38:54,280 --> 00:39:21,240
Speaker 1: talk more, even more about obscenity after this. Ak alright,

640
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: So did you see the movie Cardinal Knowledge? I didn't.

641
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: I thought, Um, for some reason, my I was like,

642
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: Body Heats not that old that I thought the movie was.

643
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 1: Wasn't that a sexy one? Body Heat was quite sexy?

644
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: I never saw that? One very good movie? Was it?

645
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: Kathleen Turner? Kathleen Turner that was putting to Palmer? Right?

646
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: I think so? Yeah? I think she's also the star

647
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: of one of my favorite all time movies, which is

648
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 1: the War of the roses Man. That is a great movie.

649
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: I can watch that movie a thousand times and not

650
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: get sick of it. Um, alright, So Cardinal Knowledge was

651
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: the Mike Nichols film with Jack Nicholson, Candice Bergen, and

652
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: Art Garfunkel. Of all people, what is our gar funcle

653
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: doing in there? He sings in a falsetto throughout it's

654
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 1: very nice. Lines are in sing song. Um no he

655
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: he was? He acted in it was good? Was he good? Yeah? Yeah,

656
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: it was a great movie. He like Paul Simon good,

657
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 1: Well he's acted too here and there. Really good movie though.

658
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, it was Mike Nichols. It

659
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: was not like porn, but it was just a very

660
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 1: frank movie about sex and relationships. Um, Like Nicholson plays

661
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 1: sort of a you know what you would think kind

662
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 1: of a womanizer, and Art Garfunkels are more uh tinder

663
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: and um not as big of a womanizer, trying to

664
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: decide how to put all this and it kind of

665
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: just follows him in three points of their life from

666
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: like college to middle age and their sexual exploits. Anyway,

667
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: it sounds kind of boring. Just really good movie, is it?

668
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: And very famously in nineteen seventy four. I think it

669
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: might have started in seventy three, and right here in

670
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: All Beneath Georgia, that was a theater manager that was

671
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: arrested for showing that movie in a theater. Oh is

672
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: that where this case comes from? Yeah, and he was

673
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: arrested and convicted of distributing obscene material. It's Jenkins v. Georgia. Right,

674
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: Jenkins v. Georgia was a court case, and of course

675
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court ruled um that Colonel Knowledge was not obscene.

676
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: And I think in the ruling they said, it's Mike Nichols,

677
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: for God's sake, He's like, what are you thinking, precious treasure? Uh?

678
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: And um, well they said that it basically your your

679
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 1: opposition to a state of Georgia making us so proud

680
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: is that there's nudity in it. And it's not a

681
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: lot of nudity. They were like, that's not enough. That

682
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:52,240
Speaker 1: doesn't it's not um patently offensive sexual, sexually explicit material

683
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: that has no artistic value. Yes, it fails the Miller

684
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: test is what it's called. Yeah, it passes. I guess

685
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: it would fail the Miller test because if you pass

686
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,879
Speaker 1: the Miller test would be it would be obscene. Right,

687
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: it's a weird way to look at it, I guess. Uh.

688
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: Here in the modern age, like I said, with the

689
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: Internet opened up a whole host of issues with free speech,

690
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: and notably the Child Online Protection Act COPA. Yeah, that

691
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: was a big deal, very big deal. COPPA was legislation

692
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: that was introduced to you know, protect kids from online smut. Right.

693
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, uh, freedom of speech. I

694
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: advocates said, no, they're gonna this is the start of

695
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: regulating the internet. The Internet is a free, open wild

696
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: West and it should not be regulated, so don't try

697
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: to regulate it. And again everybody said except for child pornography,

698
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: and the prison talking said, well, yeah, except of course

699
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 1: child peryn i Aron, if you don't be stupid. Well,

700
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 1: COPA never actually went into effect. It went through three

701
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 1: rounds of litigation over the years, and um, you know,

702
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: basically one of the big things that the court would

703
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: say back was our protections that parents can put in

704
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,280
Speaker 1: right to restrict their kids from this stuff and that's enough. Yeah,

705
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 1: that's a huge thing. Like the court really tends to

706
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: to not like government overreach and tends to restrict it

707
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 1: whenever it comes about, right, Yeah, And this was really

708
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 1: tricky because what they were trying to do is apply

709
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: a federal law to community standards for a global product.

710
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 1: And that's just I mean, talk about complicated law. That's tricky.

711
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: It's very very tricky. Yeah. So, um, the court struck

712
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: it down in part because they thought it was overly broad.

713
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: They they said that the what the government was considering

714
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: offensive material would not would not pass the Miller test,

715
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: so that was overly broad. And then they also said, yeah,

716
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: there's alternatives like parental controls that are widely available. Are

717
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: can solve the problem that the government's looking to solve,

718
00:43:54,719 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: which is restrict kids from pornography. Um, but with out

719
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 1: restricting anyone else's individual liberty. Right, So they said see

720
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 1: around COPA. Uh. And Justice Steven Bryer wrote in a

721
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: concurring opinion, this is a good quote too, to read

722
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: the statute as adopting the community standards of every locality

723
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: in the United States would provide the most puritan of

724
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: communities with a Heckler's veto affecting the rest of the nation,

725
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: basically saying what many have said was this is an

726
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: impossible task, so don't even try. I wish they'd take

727
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,959
Speaker 1: that that idea with obscenity as well. Well. And here's

728
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: the other thing when they struck down cope. And this

729
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: is another really good quote, and this this one from U. S.

730
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: District Judge Lowell read Jr. Not lou read, but Lowell read.

731
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 1: Lee Reid said take a walk on the wild side.

732
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: Lowell said, maybe after a nap Lowell said, uh, and

733
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,760
Speaker 1: this kind of sums up for me. I think he said,

734
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: perhaps we do the miners of this country harm if

735
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 1: first a protections which they uh will with age inherit

736
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: fully are chipped away in the name of their protection. Right.

737
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: So basically like in trying to protect these kids, we

738
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: have restricted their free speech when they become adults. Very interesting, Yeah,

739
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: it's true, you know. Yeah, Um, the the the courts

740
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: do you go with obscenity, I'm great with it with

741
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: the courts have also kind of shaped um freedom of

742
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: speech or protective freedom of speech by saying yes, certain

743
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 1: types of speech are not protected obscenity, child pornography, fighting words,

744
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: fighting words, and then libel is another one. But one

745
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: of the ways they further protected even when they're restricting

746
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: it is to say, not everything that you say is

747
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: liabel is actually liable. It's it's very I think it

748
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: more has to do with slanders words that it is okay,

749
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 1: So with libel laws, and I would guess slander falls

750
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: under the same laws, right. So, but with libel laws, Um,

751
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: it's really difficult to prove libel, right because the person

752
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 1: printing the libelous um information, which is basically, you're defaming

753
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: someone's character. And that's a really old, longstanding prohibition. I

754
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: think even back in ancient Greece they had a certain

755
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 1: amount of freedom of speech in Athens, classical Athens. Um.

756
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 1: But even even that was restricted as far as talking

757
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 1: trash about someone's character. Right. So that's a that's a

758
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 1: really old idea that you shouldn't. You shouldn't put fake

759
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: stuff about someone's character reputation out there. And if you do,

760
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: then they have recourse. But to prove that that person

761
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: said something libelous, they have to have had malice of forethought.

762
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: They had to have um known that what they were

763
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: printing was wrong or untrue. Yeah, that's the key. It

764
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: has to be untrue. You can express an opinion about

765
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: somebody and say someone's a big poopy pants, but you

766
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: can't say someone's big poopy pants. Who did X, Y

767
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: and Z if that isn't true? Right, exactly, um, And

768
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 1: so it's really tough to to prove or to prove

769
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: libel right. So it is unprotected speech, but it's also

770
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: protected in that it's not very broad, it's very narrow.

771
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: And then part and parcel with that is um satire

772
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: and parody are also very much protected in the United States, thankfully,

773
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 1: and we have Larry Flint, Hustler publisher, to thank for that. Yeah,

774
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 1: every I mean, people versus Larry Flint is a very

775
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: good job of that spelling out that case. But very famously,

776
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 1: he went to war with the Reverend Jerry Fallwell because

777
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: he had a cartoon and his Hustler magazine that was

778
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 1: an unflattering, uh, sexual depiction of Jerry Fallwell. It was no,

779
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: it was a fake pari ad. It was a spoof

780
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: campari ad. But it was a cartoon though no, not

781
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 1: the one I saw really, I saw like a I'm

782
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: I'm sure he had that too. But this what the

783
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: court case was. It was like a campari ad and

784
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: there was like a campari um ad campaign where people

785
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: talked about their first time they had campari or whatever,

786
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 1: and Jerry Fallwells was, uh, he and his mother got

787
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: drunk on campari and had sex in the outhouse and

788
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: that was actually how he lost his virginity. Jerry Falwell

789
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: didn't like that, of course, so he sued um. He

790
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: sued Larry Flint, and Larry Flint won that case. It

791
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: went all the way up to the Supreme Court. It

792
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: was a case and they said, nope, this is parody.

793
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:45,439
Speaker 1: There's a satire. It's protected. If any reasonable person um

794
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: sees it and would know that it's not true, it's protected.

795
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: And and Larry Flint said, draw or no reasonable person

796
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: would right pervert frack, Oh, yours is better than I

797
00:48:57,840 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 1: That was good? Oh yeah, what was that going? Yeah?

798
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,919
Speaker 1: I like, what are you Harrelson doing, Larry Flint, which

799
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: is right on the money. In my head, I sound

800
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: like a muppety tenor doing. What are you Harrelson doing?

801
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 1: Great movie the Muppets people versus Larry fin Um. Yeah.

802
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 1: In any way, thankfully satire and is protected here in

803
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: the US because we have a long, rich history of

804
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: political cartoons and rich satire that can really make a difference.

805
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 1: Like you see what's going on with Saturday out Live

806
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 1: right now. It's like they've had a long, long tradition

807
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 1: of political satire and and most times that opening bit

808
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 1: they do is political in nature. Uh, And then you

809
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: know it's nothing new. They've been doing it forever. So

810
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just think it's when you start

811
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: like poking at that and the onion and you know,

812
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: some of the great satirical publications. That's that goes down

813
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 1: a bad road. Agreed, so, Chuck. One of the things

814
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:10,879
Speaker 1: that's coming up now that we're connected globally is this

815
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: idea that what we talked about the beginning, the US

816
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 1: has very broad free speech protections, some other countries don't.

817
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: There's like the the U n Universal Declaration of Human Rights, right,

818
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: some of that has has some free speech protection in it.

819
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 1: Not everybody signed on to it, and a lot of

820
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: people think there will never be any way to to

821
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: protect freedom of speech worldwide. Normally, up to say the nineties,

822
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: that wasn't that big of an issue unless like Salman

823
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,760
Speaker 1: Rushdie published a book or something like that, um, because

824
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,959
Speaker 1: each country had its own standards, and what was said

825
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,879
Speaker 1: in one country typically stayed in that country, even if

826
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,320
Speaker 1: it was offensive to another country. Right, Sure, the the

827
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 1: two didn't clide. Now that the internet's here, what's said

828
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 1: in one country can be carried immediately to another country

829
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,879
Speaker 1: and the offense can be taken. And this went out

830
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: of hypotheticals and into real world, well into the real world. UM.

831
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 1: Back in two thousand twelve, when a guy named Nakula Beasel.

832
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: Nakula released a fourteen minute video called the Innocence of Muslims.

833
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: Do you remember that? I don't. It was extremely incendiary.

834
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: If you um were a Muslim, you were going to

835
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 1: be offended by this because it basically said that Prophet

836
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 1: Mohammed was a fraud. Uh. It had him as a flander,

837
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: a womanizer, I think, a pedophile, it was like. And

838
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: the people who were in it were scared to death

839
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: because of the reaction. There were riots around the world

840
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: once it was translated into Arabic and released. What they

841
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 1: think was going to happen, I don't, I don't know.

842
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't remember if the person was a

843
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: provocateur on purpose or if these were their real beliefs

844
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: son Islam. Regardless, they were Um Egyptian American, so the

845
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: video was protected, even though elsewhere in the world they

846
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: were literally rioting the streets and people were dying because

847
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: this video existed. They were so upset by it. But

848
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 1: in the US t s and as far as I know,

849
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: it's still up on YouTube right because it's protected by

850
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: free speech. Well, that's a that's a great example of

851
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 1: should the US have the freedom of speech that is

852
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: going to cause harm in another country? Now that those

853
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 1: two countries are connected via the Internet. There's no easy

854
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 1: answer to that. That was basically a rhetorical question at

855
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 1: this point, but it's one that I think is going

856
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 1: to have to be decided more and more. And what

857
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: goes to the heart of his blasphemy in this case. Yeah,

858
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: blasphemy typically means insulting God or any religious or holy

859
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:07,919
Speaker 1: person or thing. Uh. It means different things in different religions. Um,

860
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: it's actually still illegal in some states in the U.

861
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 1: S Um. Oh is that I thought the last one

862
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 1: was struck down in two thousand seven. Okay, well but

863
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: two thousands up until two thousand seven. Um, yeah, yeah,

864
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 1: had laws until two thousand seven. That's right again two

865
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: thousand seven. Yeah. Uh. But the last conviction for blasphemy

866
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 1: in the US was in night so because these were

867
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: laws that were sort of on the books that no

868
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: one did much about. Well, there's a dude. It was

869
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 1: in Little Rock, Arkansas, and he was an anti religious atheist,

870
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: this white supremacist who um had an office and in

871
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: the office there was a sign out front I guess

872
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: it was a storefin office, and it said, Um, evolution

873
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 1: is true. The Bible is a lie. God is a

874
00:53:56,360 --> 00:54:00,080
Speaker 1: ghost and he got arrested and convicted for blasphem me.

875
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: So again, this is and there were blasphemy laws on

876
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 1: the books until two thousand seven, and yeah, it is.

877
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: It's it's really surprising to think that the United States

878
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: ever had blasphemy laws, but they were fairly recent. Yeah,

879
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 1: and you know when it comes to religion, like the

880
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 1: United States protects Westboro Baptist Church and they say you

881
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 1: can go out and you can have uh offensive messages

882
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 1: on signs at military funerals if you want UM, because

883
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:33,439
Speaker 1: this is the United States and we allow that. Yeah.

884
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: And so I think that kind of brings up that

885
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:40,760
Speaker 1: one op ed you're talking about from the Atlantic, that um,

886
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 1: free speech isn't free. What's the title of it? Yeah,

887
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 1: what's the what's the guy who wrote its name? Garrett

888
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: Epps wrote it, and he makes really great He didn't

889
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 1: even make a case. He just kind of presented both

890
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: sides well. And what he did was he was the quote.

891
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: And I think you're right on the money with that um,

892
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:05,720
Speaker 1: with that summation, because he said, Um, repressing speech has costs,

893
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: but so it does allowing it. And the only mature

894
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:09,399
Speaker 1: way to judge the system is to look at both

895
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: sides of the ledger right. That really kind of says

896
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 1: it all. Yeah, and he's he's basically saying like it's

897
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 1: not enough to be to say freedom of speech exists

898
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,800
Speaker 1: because we have free speech in the U. S. America

899
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: is a free country. You have to examine why and

900
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: you have to defend it or else it's just a privilege.

901
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 1: And privileges are always subject to attack. But actual freedom

902
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 1: is should be defensible, and so he says we need

903
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 1: to defend it, especially based on another op ed that

904
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,439
Speaker 1: he was actually talking about by a law professor from

905
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: fordom Thane Rosenbaum said, Um, no, there are actual harms

906
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: to speech. It does cause physical or it does cause

907
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 1: emotional harm that can in some cases exceed physical harm.

908
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,760
Speaker 1: It can be longer lasting, it can have a greater

909
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:00,959
Speaker 1: impact on more people at once. Um, and so why

910
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 1: do we allow hate speech in the United States? And

911
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:09,320
Speaker 1: Garret Ups doesn't have the answer, He just examines the

912
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 1: whole question. I think, really well, yeah, I thought it

913
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 1: was interesting. I mean, you know, he makes a point

914
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 1: that the same laws that allow for strides of civil

915
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,760
Speaker 1: rights and feminism and gay rights groups over the years

916
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 1: are the same law as that protect the people that

917
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 1: have done them such harm over the years. Um And

918
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: you know, like you said, you gotta look at both

919
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 1: sides of the ledger. It might cause harm and there

920
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 1: is a cost to it, but ultimately the freedom well

921
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 1: in my opinion, least outweighs those harms. So there's this

922
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 1: guy named Jonathan Rausch who um garret ups quotes, but

923
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 1: he wrote another OpEd that I read, and his idea

924
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: of why freedom of speech, including hate speech, is important

925
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: is because he says that if you suppress speech, you're

926
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:01,879
Speaker 1: suppressing thoughts. Right, So if you suppress hate speech, it's

927
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:03,919
Speaker 1: still gonna be there. It's still gonna be boiling under

928
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 1: the surface. People are still gonna quietly, subtly trade in it,

929
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:11,320
Speaker 1: but you can't refute it. If you allow hate speech,

930
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 1: it can be refuted loudly, publicly. And then from that

931
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 1: and he makes the case that this is why the

932
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,919
Speaker 1: gay community has made such strides in the last few years,

933
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 1: because of the vicious homophobia that was publicly hurled at them,

934
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: that they stood up and said, you know what, this

935
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: isn't true. You know what, we deserve this right. You

936
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: know what, we're not pedophiles. You know what, we should

937
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: be able to adopt everything and shot down all this

938
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 1: stuff systematically. And America was watching this back and forth

939
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: and um, gay people one public sentiment just through logic.

940
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 1: He was saying, if you didn't allow that hate speech

941
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: in the first place, there wouldn't have been that position

942
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 1: to address, um, that hate speech. Improve it wrong because

943
00:57:55,360 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 1: you can't suppress hateful ideology. It's gonna exist, so all

944
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 1: the speech so it can be publicly refuted and just

945
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: smacked down. Yeah, yeah, I thought. I think that's probably

946
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,919
Speaker 1: the best explanation for freedom of speech I've ever heard.

947
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: A good way to close to huh Man. Thanks a

948
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: lot of Jonathan rosh Ah. You got anything else? No,

949
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: I don't, but a little tease before listener mail, we're

950
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: gonna have a couple of very intriguing follow ups to

951
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: recent questions. Okay, all right, Well, if you want to

952
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: know more about free speech, uh to start talking. And

953
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 1: since I said that, it's time for whatever Chuck's got

954
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 1: up his sleeve. Yeah. Before I read the listener mail, Um,

955
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: two things were on a recent show. We asked about

956
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 1: our old buddy Sarah the Amazing fan, and then our

957
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 1: old Buddy Sam, the Summer of Sam. Weirdly enough, we

958
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 1: come into the office and Sam's parents dropped off a

959
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 1: letter to us. Sam wants to be an intern here.

960
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 1: So he's around. He's in college doing great and wants

961
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 1: to In turn, wrote us a letter, and we're gonna

962
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 1: try and get him in here. And he wouldn't be

963
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 1: our intern specifically, it'd be for how stuff works. But um,

964
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: we're gonna burn a lot of currency to make sure

965
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 1: he gets this job. Yeah, I hope it happens. It'd

966
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: be great. It was good to hear from him, and

967
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: it sounds like college is going great. His resume was stacked,

968
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: Buddy Sam. Uh. And the other thing is, I don't

969
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 1: know if you saw this because I did the Facebook,

970
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 1: but um, Katherine Mary Stewart of Night of the Comment

971
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 1: played the older sister Reggie uh and was also in

972
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 1: the Last Starfighter. And we ken to Bernie's and you

973
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 1: know it was, you know, sort of the darling in

974
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties and nineties. Uh. And it's still an

975
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 1: actor today, does theater, working stuff and movies and TV

976
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: and radio. She does it all. Uh. She got in

977
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 1: touch with us. She listened to the malls Podcasts posted

978
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 1: on Facebook that we shouted her out and also her

979
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 1: hometown Edmonton Mall and I was just knocked out and

980
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 1: told her to email us. She emailed that thinks she

981
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 1: lives in New York, and I said, hey, listen, next

982
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 1: time we do a show at the Bell House, I

983
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,959
Speaker 1: want to act out week end to Berne. I'll play

984
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: I'll play the debt guy and you and Josh can

985
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 1: just pop it me around. Now. It was like, you know,

986
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 1: come and bring your family. We'd love to guest list you.

987
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 1: Maybe you can hop up on stage and we can

988
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: chit chat for a minute. I took the liberty of

989
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 1: doing that. It was very nice. You're like, no, she

990
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: can't get on stage. We edit that part out. I

991
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: just thought that was very cool. Yes, very cool. Thanks

992
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: for writing in Katherine Mary Stewart. Yes, and boy, she's

993
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 1: found the Countain of Youth. She looks exactly the same. Yes.

994
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 1: Uh and Sam too, he looks exactly the same. It's

995
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 1: like twenty looked like he did when he was seventeen.

996
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 1: Well thanks, dudes. Oh we haven't even done listener mail yet,

997
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 1: know so listener mail, Um, well, I'm just gonna read it.

998
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 1: It's called would you rather? I feel bad for Jerry.

999
01:00:57,760 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 1: She's not gonna know where to put the listener mail

1000
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: chime and that's sorry. Hey, guys, just finishing listening to

1001
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 1: soil It and uh I thought I had a surefire

1002
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:11,439
Speaker 1: argument starter for you, guys, Josh's rant about the pros

1003
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:13,760
Speaker 1: and cons of cooking and sharing meals. I don't rant

1004
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 1: reinforce my position on the subject. I'd like to know

1005
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 1: what you think about it. Here's how you play would

1006
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 1: you rather? And it's not the sexy one. You get

1007
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: to forego one thing that humans need to do in

1008
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 1: order to live, either eating, sleeping, or breathing. You can

1009
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: do the thing that you choose to forego, of course,

1010
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 1: you just don't need to in order to live, and

1011
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 1: you remain neutral in terms of pleasure or discomfort caused

1012
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 1: by the lack of the necessity. So you don't feel hungry,

1013
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 1: you don't feel sleepy, you don't feel asphixiated. It seems

1014
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 1: like stop out to me. So he wants to know

1015
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 1: what would we rather do? Without um? Mine is easy.

1016
01:01:52,880 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: I would easily not breathe question who would want? Who

1017
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: would say like I don't want to eat? I get

1018
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 1: a lot out of breathing. I'd have trouble giving that

1019
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 1: one out. Well, Andrew said he wouldn't eat. That's the

1020
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 1: answer to that question. He said, I would always forego

1021
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 1: eating because of the money it takes to feed myself

1022
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 1: and uh, the waking hours I would save. Yeah, I mean,

1023
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:22,479
Speaker 1: people's that's the two things with food, time and money. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1024
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:24,919
Speaker 1: but you get so much pleasure of it. Breathing, Sure,

1025
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 1: it's free, but who cares, especially if you're not going

1026
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 1: to die from not breathing? And this situation is weird

1027
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 1: fantasy world of his. I say, anyone who chooses, and

1028
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: this is Andrew talking, I say anyone who chooses to

1029
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 1: forego sleep as a dummy, because not only are you

1030
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 1: not saving on food, you have to entertain yourself for

1031
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: an additional five hours a day. You argument there, though,

1032
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 1: is you could get more done. Sure, sometimes I do

1033
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:51,120
Speaker 1: wish that you don't sleep to sleep. Sometimes I also

1034
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 1: enjoy sleep too, he says. Plus, I could eat socially

1035
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 1: every now and then under these terms if I wanted to.

1036
01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 1: But who would just take a nap if you don't

1037
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 1: feel refreshed afterward? Yeah? I would. I love to sleep.

1038
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 1: And then the non breathers are just like deep sea

1039
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 1: diving and exploring volcanoes and stuff. I guess, oh, what

1040
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 1: do you think about that? Pert, Yeah, you just go

1041
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 1: swimming all the way at the bottom forever. Yeah. So

1042
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 1: it's clearly breathing is the answer. It's not even a

1043
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:24,600
Speaker 1: subjective question at this point that we've proven it. Yeah,

1044
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 1: all right, keep up the good work. That's from Andrew.

1045
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 1: Thanks Andrew, you keep thinking a good work too. Nice.

1046
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 1: I just want to see you're a sucker for not

1047
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 1: eating though. Yeah. Uh. If you want to try to

1048
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 1: stump us but fail at it like Andrew did, you

1049
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 1: can tweet to us at s Y s K podcast.

1050
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:44,680
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