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Speaker 1: Oh, Holy leading Jesus on a cross, his legs broken.

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Speaker 1: That's the podcast. Stabbed in the side by a spear.

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Speaker 1: That's a different that's a different show. Holy that Jesus.

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Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans. Are you? I am Robert Evans, the

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Speaker 1: Jesus of podcasting, crucified, crucified by the need to make content,

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Speaker 1: which I do for your souls in the same way

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Speaker 1: that Jesus died. I'm sorry you're fired. I feel like

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Speaker 1: I feel like this is a good direction to go

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Speaker 1: is do not. I think it's really going to work

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Speaker 1: out for so if people love blasphemy, everybody's a big

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Speaker 1: fan of blasphemy. That's what made the Beatles so huge.

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Speaker 1: It was blasphemy. They were, in fact, bigger than Jesus speaking,

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Speaker 1: a bigger than Jesus. Bridget Todd my guest today. I'm

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Speaker 1: good with that, bro. Yeah, you know what, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: take it. I'll take that intro. I appreciate it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean you know the fuck him. Um, Bridget how

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Speaker 1: are how are you doing? How how are you feeling

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Speaker 1: as we go into part two? I'm feeling good. I

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Speaker 1: have to, I was telling Sophie before we hit record

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Speaker 1: I'm a little bit hungover, but I'm otherwise doing well.

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Speaker 1: That's great. Um, I am hungover from uh taking a

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Speaker 1: bunch of pain killers last night after laser eye surgery. Um.

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Speaker 1: Just like bridget all, it was an open bar. Oh

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Speaker 1: ship ye man, open bar. Had a minute since I

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Speaker 1: had me an open bar. I love great Goose Martini's

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Speaker 1: I can't be trust bar. Um. So let's uh, what

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Speaker 1: do we what do we? What do we bridget? When

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Speaker 1: we last left off, we're talking about that Jones State Park,

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Speaker 1: the overpasses that he built real low. Um, We're and

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Speaker 1: like kind of the debate to it about it to

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Speaker 1: this day and kind of the shitty arguments people make

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Speaker 1: to be like, no, he had to make the bridges

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Speaker 1: too low for busses. It was prettier that way. Um.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, and it's it's it's kind of like as

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Speaker 1: we kind of talk about the degree to which it's

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Speaker 1: fair to blame Moses for making bridges too low, and

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Speaker 1: you'll find again, you can find a ton of there's

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Speaker 1: like this whole wave in the last couple of years

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Speaker 1: and people being like, actually, Robert Moses did nothing wrong

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Speaker 1: and like it's unfair to critique him for that, they

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Speaker 1: all tend to ignore the fact that not only did

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Speaker 1: he like build his bridges super low, but he drafted

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Speaker 1: because again he's the legislation guy. Right, He's really good

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Speaker 1: at writing laws. One of the things he did was

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Speaker 1: he drafted and passed legislation to forbid the use of

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Speaker 1: busses on parkways. UM because again he wants to cut

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Speaker 1: off where poor people can travel to um. And and

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Speaker 1: this is like, uh, he considered, you know, this was

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Speaker 1: part of his This was part of his kind of

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Speaker 1: plan to silo off poor people of color from white

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Speaker 1: people in the places white people went affluent white people

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Speaker 1: in particular, because he was not just racist, he was classist. UM.

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Speaker 1: And laws like that kind of like trying to restrict

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Speaker 1: busses on parkways where something he would do as like

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Speaker 1: an emergency stop gap because he couldn't funk around with

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Speaker 1: like construction everywhere. Um. But he considered those laws a

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Speaker 1: lot less useful in stopping poor people and particularly poor

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Speaker 1: people of color um, from living around white people than

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Speaker 1: he did physical construction. Um. Again, you can change a law.

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Speaker 1: A law can be changed overnight, as we're all currently

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Speaker 1: dealing with, right. Um. It takes as a court of

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Speaker 1: returning something or a legislature voting infrastructure has a long lifespan, right, Um,

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Speaker 1: This is why you know he constructed something like a

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Speaker 1: hundred and seventy two hundred and eighty bridges that were

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Speaker 1: too low for buses. Um, and he saw that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing is much more important. He was quoted often

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Speaker 1: is saying, quote, legislation can also be changed. It's very

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Speaker 1: hard to tear down a bridge once it's up, um,

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Speaker 1: and Moses found it considerably easier, in fact, to tear

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Speaker 1: down the homes of poor black people, which he did

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Speaker 1: regularly as part of his construction schemes. His justification for

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Speaker 1: this was always the need to create a massive network

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Speaker 1: of urban highways within New York City. The number one

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Speaker 1: thing that he did, the thing that people remember him

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Speaker 1: fondly for, is he made all these bridges and parks.

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Speaker 1: The thing he spent most of his time doing was

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Speaker 1: building urban highways, because again, he hates public transportation. He

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Speaker 1: fucking loves cars. And not only do urban highways lead

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Speaker 1: to congestion, UM, lead to a city in which a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have to have cars that would probably

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Speaker 1: be happier living off a public transportation. What you can

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Speaker 1: do with a highway is you can use it as

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Speaker 1: a wall, because the highway is a very effective physical barrier. Right,

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Speaker 1: you can't like run across the highway, He'll get fucking killed. Um.

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Speaker 1: And so he was. He not only built these highways

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Speaker 1: and kind of tried to wrench away progress in New

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Speaker 1: York from towards public transportation, but and and in favor

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Speaker 1: of like everyone having their own fucking car. But he

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Speaker 1: used the highway to wall off poor, majority black parts

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Speaker 1: of the city from affluent white ones. And he also

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Speaker 1: made sure that whenever he was constructing a highway, because

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Speaker 1: again you're adding a highway to a city that's already

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Speaker 1: quite dense, you have to destroy a lot of houses,

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Speaker 1: you have to bulldoze neighborhoods. And it just so happened

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Speaker 1: that all of the neighborhoods he destroyed, uh in order

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Speaker 1: to make his urban highways were majority black. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: Robert Carro argues that Moses purposefully placed roots in such

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Speaker 1: a way as to demand that it would demand the

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Speaker 1: eviction of large numbers of non white people living in

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Speaker 1: places he didn't want them to live, particularly neighborhoods that

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Speaker 1: bordered upper class white neighborhoods um and he would do

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Speaker 1: this even when the route he picked, even when like

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Speaker 1: going through these neighborhoods, was hideously inefficient. A great example

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Speaker 1: of this is the Cross Bronx Expressway, which I'm sure

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Speaker 1: we're all familiar if you've been to New York, like,

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Speaker 1: you know of the Cross Bronx Expressway. In order to

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Speaker 1: build the Cross Bronze Expressway, they had to eliminate the

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Speaker 1: neighborhood of East tremant Um. This one mile chunk of

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Speaker 1: highway couldn't be constructed without evicting tens of thousands of people,

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Speaker 1: most of whom were black. Under Moses's reign, these people

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Speaker 1: were forced out of their homes five years before construction

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Speaker 1: was completed, and the eviction was brutal. People did not

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Speaker 1: want to give up their neighborhood for this road, as

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Speaker 1: pa Rights quote now, and this is after people were

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Speaker 1: forced out, sometimes by police with weapons. Now, East Trement

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Speaker 1: looked as London might have looked after the if after

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Speaker 1: the bombs troops had fought their way through it from

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Speaker 1: house to house. It had the look of a jungle. Now.

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Speaker 1: Later in The Power Broker, Carol alleges that quote during

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Speaker 1: the seven years since the end of World War Two,

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Speaker 1: there had been evicted from their homes in New York

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Speaker 1: for public works, mainly Robert moseses public works some hundred

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Speaker 1: and seventy thousand persons. He suspects this number is actually

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Speaker 1: quite low. A report published more recently by the New

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Speaker 1: York City Planning Commission describes this process overseen by Moses,

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Speaker 1: as an enforced population displacement, unlike any previous population movement

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Speaker 1: in the city's history. Um, you could see this as

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Speaker 1: an act of ethnic cleansing, and it is in a

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Speaker 1: lot of way, and it's but it's done under the

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Speaker 1: auspices of what we're improving the city. This is going

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Speaker 1: to make it better for everybody. We have to add

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Speaker 1: in these roads. We're paying people for their houses even

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Speaker 1: if they don't want to sell them, and we have

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Speaker 1: to like force them out using police. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: quote now from a write up by Poverty Justice Solutions

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Speaker 1: that makes it clear just how fucked up the demographics

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Speaker 1: on this were. The evicted population was forty black or

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Speaker 1: Hispanic at a time when those demographics made up only

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Speaker 1: a little over ten percent of the city's overall population,

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Speaker 1: meaning that a large proportion of the evicted tenants faced

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Speaker 1: extreme discrimination and finding new housing, and little arrangement was

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Speaker 1: made by the city to help evicted tenants find new housing.

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Speaker 1: Carol tells us for seven years, Moses had been giving

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Speaker 1: the impression that the bulk of the low income families

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Speaker 1: displaced by his public works had been accommodated in public

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Speaker 1: housing projects. In reality, it was found that the percentage

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Speaker 1: of displaced families placed in public housing was pathetically small.

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Speaker 1: Many tenants were forced to crammond already crowded tenement buildings nearby,

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Speaker 1: exacerbating conditions caused by poverty and allowing exploitative landlords to

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Speaker 1: reap huge profits. In the worst cases, tenants were forced

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Speaker 1: to shelter in their old neighborhoods as they were being

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Speaker 1: torn down, surrounded by the deafening noise of demolitions, and

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Speaker 1: often without basic utilities. A member of the Women's City

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Speaker 1: Club investigating the Manhattan Town development on the Upper West

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Speaker 1: Side described people living in a scene that looked like

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Speaker 1: a cross section of bombed out Berlin. Right after World

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Speaker 1: War Two. Some of the tenements were still standing, broken

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Speaker 1: windows gaped cyclessly at the sky basement doors, yawning and

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Speaker 1: covered on the sidewalks, and surrounding them were acres strewn

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Speaker 1: with brick and mortar and rubble where wreckers and bulldozers

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Speaker 1: had been at work. So that's heart I mean, like

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Speaker 1: that's heartbreaking. And also even if those people have gone

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Speaker 1: into like public housing and like housing projects, that's not ideal.

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Speaker 1: And the fact that they that that wasn't even really

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Speaker 1: what was happening. They were being crowded into tenements and

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Speaker 1: things like that, Like I can only imagine the lasting

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Speaker 1: legacy that that is that had on those families for generations.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's so heartbreaking. They're being made refugees

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Speaker 1: in the city they were born in um and it's

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Speaker 1: you can find pictures of this period of time and

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Speaker 1: they're they're pretty harrowing. They look like war zone photos.

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Speaker 1: It will be like, you know, you'll see pictures of

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Speaker 1: like three or four little black kids sitting on like

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Speaker 1: a pile of like rocks next to like a burnt

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Speaker 1: out shell of a building, and it's usually framed. Especially

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Speaker 1: when like it's brought up, it's like this is how

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Speaker 1: bad New York was before, like the city got poverty

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Speaker 1: under and got crime under control, and like all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's like no, no no, no, this is how ugly the

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Speaker 1: city was after they went to war with like several

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Speaker 1: neighborhoods in order to build a highway so that people

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Speaker 1: didn't have to get on a train because Bob Moses

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Speaker 1: didn't like trains. And then that's why this happens. Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 1: And then that sentiment that like false sentiment of like oh,

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Speaker 1: this is how the city was before they got it

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Speaker 1: under control, that's used to like usher in all manner

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Speaker 1: of really fucked up policies, Like it's such a fucked

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Speaker 1: up cycle of that really has criminalizing and targeting poor

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Speaker 1: people and black people and people of color at the

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Speaker 1: heart of it. And it's yeah, it really breaks my heart. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really fucked up. Um. And when Bob Moses wasn't

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Speaker 1: busy displacing Black New Yorkers, he was deliberately routing roads

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Speaker 1: in such a way as to clog their neighborhoods, like

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Speaker 1: heavily black neighborhoods, with pollution and traffic. He specifically built

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Speaker 1: the road in a highway system of New York as

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Speaker 1: to offload the majority of the traffic and thus the

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Speaker 1: pollution on black neighborhoods. The Yale Law Journal notes that

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Speaker 1: he placed the Robert F. Kennedy Bridges exit ramp and

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Speaker 1: Harlem when a better location would have been the Upper

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Speaker 1: east Side. The only reason to locate it in Harlem

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Speaker 1: was to stop traffic from exiting and wealthy neighborhoods and

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Speaker 1: instead crowd Harlem with traffic headed for the bridge, right.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure that when asked he was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: the aesthetics are just better this way. It just looks

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Speaker 1: better this way. It looks better this way. This is

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Speaker 1: going to be like you know, he would They always

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Speaker 1: have some wonky reason why it's not racism, right, m hmm,

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Speaker 1: but it just keeps happening this way. Um, when he

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Speaker 1: constructed the Long Island Expressway, it would have cost Moses

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Speaker 1: four more to add mass transit in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the highway, right, to like add a mass transit line

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the highway. Four percent increase. And

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Speaker 1: we already know Bob Moses is great at getting his

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Speaker 1: budgets increased, right, right, So when he builds the Long

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Speaker 1: Island Expressway for four percent more, they could add mass

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Speaker 1: transit to the highway. This would have doubled the carrying

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Speaker 1: capacity of the Long Island Railroad, massive improvement and the

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Speaker 1: ability of New York's public transportation. Moses is presented with

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Speaker 1: this option um and says no. When he was designing

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Speaker 1: the Van Wick Expressway to the JFK Airport, he was

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Speaker 1: asked to reserve space for future mass transit. Basically like,

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Speaker 1: for an extra two million dollars, we can add space

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Speaker 1: into this development so that in the future we can

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Speaker 1: add mass transit and it will be cheap, right, um,

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Speaker 1: And the two million bucks would have cost is again

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Speaker 1: a peddling some given the budgets involved in the potential benefit. Uh,

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Speaker 1: he says no, And again he could have done it

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Speaker 1: back in like the fifties for two million dollars. Instead,

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Speaker 1: years later, when the city priced adding a rail link,

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Speaker 1: they were quoted three million. This is one of the concept.

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Speaker 1: This is part of what because of the way he

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Speaker 1: builds the highways and build the roads and builds the

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Speaker 1: parks in the city, one of the things that it

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Speaker 1: does because he hates public transit. It's part of why

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Speaker 1: it's so fucking expensive today to make any change to

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Speaker 1: New York City. And there's other reasons, right, there's permitting

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Speaker 1: and why. There's a bunch of reasons why. One of

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Speaker 1: them is that Moses specifically puts a bunch of ship

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Speaker 1: in the city that he builds without even though he

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Speaker 1: has the option without any like without space for a

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Speaker 1: public transit, because he hates it, right, And that's part

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Speaker 1: of why it's so expensive to expand anything in the city. Again,

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Speaker 1: not trying to say that's the whole thing. This is

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Speaker 1: a complicated story, but he's this is a significant factor

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Speaker 1: in it, and it's it's still very hard today. Like

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Speaker 1: it's like a lasting legacy, and it is really wild

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Speaker 1: to me. I know that you've said this a few times,

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Speaker 1: but like hating public transit while being in charge of

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Speaker 1: public transit and like never taking public he's in charge

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Speaker 1: of the parks. Well yes, but that that also means

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Speaker 1: that he gets to be in charge as they're building

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Speaker 1: these roads and these things that like connect you know,

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Speaker 1: all of this stuff. Like as he's doing these developments,

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Speaker 1: he gets to make decisions about public transit. Again, he's

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Speaker 1: not in charge of technically anything but the parks. This

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Speaker 1: is all the way he's like wielding power because of

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Speaker 1: he's he's he's not None of this is formal right.

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Speaker 1: None of this is like him issuing executive orders. This

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Speaker 1: is all him sitting down and talking to people are

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Speaker 1: like using the flex at the park depart Parks Department

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Speaker 1: has pushing his budgets like threatening people who are elected

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Speaker 1: with like well, if this doesn't get done, it's gonna

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Speaker 1: look bad. Like that's how he does all of this.

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Speaker 1: Um So, the New York City bridges that are built

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Speaker 1: under Robert Moses, which are the Tribe Borough, the Verrizono,

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Speaker 1: the Henry Hudson, throgs Neck, and Bronx white Stone, all

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Speaker 1: became iconic symbols of the city, and all of them

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Speaker 1: are built without a mass transit component. Moses repeatedly shut

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Speaker 1: down proposals to add this capacity whenever it came up,

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Speaker 1: and he also acted to hamper the subway system whenever possible.

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Speaker 1: On two occasions, the city attempted to build a second

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Speaker 1: Avenue subway line. Both times Moses stopped them from using

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Speaker 1: funds which he controlled, to pay for the project. He

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Speaker 1: instead diverted the money to bridges and high ways. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty five, the transportation budget Moses Shepherd it was

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Speaker 1: large enough to modernize the Long Island Railroad and build

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Speaker 1: two new tunnels under the Hudson, and I'm gonna quote

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Speaker 1: again from the power broker here, it would have been

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Speaker 1: more than enough to build a long, proposed and desperately

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Speaker 1: needed Second Avenue subway, and to build a tunnel along

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Speaker 1: across the East River through which a branch of the

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Speaker 1: Second Avenue line would extend out to Queens to provide

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Speaker 1: adequate subway service there, and to build extensions of the

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Speaker 1: existing subway lines to Queens to provide service for the

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Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of residents of Eastern Queens who were

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Speaker 1: miles away from the nearest subway, And to extend the

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Speaker 1: Nostrand Avenue subway in Brooklyn three miles along Flatbush Avenue

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Speaker 1: to a new modern terminal that would serve the growing

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Speaker 1: Mill basin area that possessed no rapid transit at all.

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Speaker 1: And to construct a new plaza and great elimination project

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Speaker 1: at the Calb Avenue that would eliminate switching delays which

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Speaker 1: caused the most severe bottleneck and train service between Brooklyn

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Speaker 1: and Manhattan. So he he has the budget, he has

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Speaker 1: can do all this right. This could have all been

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Speaker 1: in place decades ago in New York City, but instea

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Speaker 1: of using it for that, Moses ensures the money is

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Speaker 1: diverted to build more highways. He takes the money that

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Speaker 1: could have gone and he builds more fucking roads for

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Speaker 1: people's personal cars. Um. And again his justification for this

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Speaker 1: is always this is going to solve traffic. This is

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Speaker 1: going to help people's commute time, right right, like that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what a joke. It never does, right, raise your hand

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Speaker 1: listening at home, if you've been in a city that

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Speaker 1: expanded a highway and if it actually helped with your commute,

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Speaker 1: it never does, like if they always say that, it

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Speaker 1: never does. And the traffic in New York, as you

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Speaker 1: said Earl as you opened the show with it, is

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Speaker 1: a nightmare to this day. Yeah, it never quite seems

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Speaker 1: to work. Um the because again, cars are actually a

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Speaker 1: hideously inefficient way of getting large numbers of people around

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Speaker 1: a dense urban area. Um so yeah, And this becomes

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Speaker 1: clear eventually city officials are like, wait a minute, none

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Speaker 1: of these roads are helping with the traffic problem. The

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Speaker 1: in fact, the more roads that he builds, the worst

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Speaker 1: traffic gets because and also the more cars are just

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Speaker 1: in the city that need parking, that are like and

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Speaker 1: so parking is now more expensive and the streets are

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Speaker 1: even more crowded, and yeah, um people do start as

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Speaker 1: like this becomes clear and the fifties and stuff pushing

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Speaker 1: for him to add more public transit, but Moses, for

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Speaker 1: forty years, fights it every chance he gets. Right, He

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Speaker 1: doesn't always get his way, but he always fights whenever

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Speaker 1: he whenever it like crosses his purview. He fights to

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Speaker 1: limit the expansion of public transit because like, fuck people,

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Speaker 1: you know, I have a driver, right, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to get all I'm not gonna get on a subway. No,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the whole justification really is fun. People. He

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Speaker 1: probably has no sense of what like the ways that

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Speaker 1: expanding public transit would actually improve cities and improve livability.

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Speaker 1: He can't because again, he doesn't drive. So that's the

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Speaker 1: other part of this. He takes a car everywhere, but

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Speaker 1: a dude is driving him when he needs to get somewhere.

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Speaker 1: He has a fucking driver because he never learns how

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Speaker 1: to drive, So that also means he never has to park.

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Speaker 1: Like's not he is. He is. He is because of

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Speaker 1: his wealth and privilege, completely immune to the consequences of

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Speaker 1: all the decisions he's making. So he just gets to like, well,

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Speaker 1: when I'm on the highway, I just get to like

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Speaker 1: read my book or you know, work on paperwork or something,

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Speaker 1: and then off I go. And this seems like a

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Speaker 1: good development. No more nasty subways. You know, he sucks

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Speaker 1: pretty bad. He sucks pretty bad, Bridget. But you know

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Speaker 1: who doesn't suck pretty bad? You know who sucks good?

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Speaker 1: They suck incredibly these they could they could take the

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Speaker 1: lug nuts off of an eighteen wheelers tires, Bridget. Who's

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Speaker 1: that the products and services that support this podcast? Wow?

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Speaker 1: So if you just let me get away with that one,

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Speaker 1: she didn't stop it at all. Didn't stop it at all.

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Speaker 1: Suck him right off, pop him out. Have the energy

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Speaker 1: for this today? Well, our sponsors have the energy to

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Speaker 1: do that, Sophie. Here they are. Oh, we're back, and

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Speaker 1: we're talking about the mouth game of our sponsors, which

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Speaker 1: is solid um anyway. So if he's still fine with us, Wow,

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Speaker 1: she just muted herself. Incredible, just great, everybody's wow, what

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Speaker 1: a professional podcast. Unbelievable. I can't believe you're allowing us.

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Speaker 1: She gave me the thumbs up that means we're good

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Speaker 1: to go. Okay, So obviously Bridget Moses is new Defenders

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Speaker 1: cannot deny his staggering racism or the degree to which

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Speaker 1: his policies contributed to a small, choked city based around

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Speaker 1: the least efficient form of transit conceivable. But they will argue,

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Speaker 1: while he was not perfect, he did a lot of

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Speaker 1: good things to and people don't note all of the

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Speaker 1: good things he did for black people, right, he did

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Speaker 1: a lot of nice stuff for black people. So really, like,

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Speaker 1: how could he be that racist if he did nice

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Speaker 1: things for black people helping us out? What do you do?

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Speaker 1: Here's Bloomberg to tell you what he did? Okay, but

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Speaker 1: Moses was complex. He gave Harlem a glorious pool and

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Speaker 1: play center. Now Jackie Robinson Park one of the best

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Speaker 1: public works of the New Deal era anywhere in the

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Speaker 1: United States. A crowd of twenty five thousand attended the

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Speaker 1: opening ceremony in August nineteen thirty six, sixty nine, regiment

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Speaker 1: playing when the music goes Round and Round before park's commissioner,

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Speaker 1: Moses was introduced to great applause by Bill bow Jangles Robinson.

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Speaker 1: So this is undeniable, right, have you been to that park?

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Speaker 1: Jackie Robinson's Yeah, it's a lovely Park. It's undeniable that,

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Speaker 1: like he's the mastermind of making that happen. Um. But

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Speaker 1: even while he's building things that carried real benefits to

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Speaker 1: New York black citizens, he couldn't avoid the urge to

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Speaker 1: be racist as all hell. And this quote from the

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Speaker 1: Power Broker, you may need to brace yourself for here,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'm strapped in Robert Moses had always displayed

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Speaker 1: a genius for adorning his creations with little details that

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Speaker 1: made them fit in with their setting, that made the

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Speaker 1: people who use them feel at home in them. There

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Speaker 1: was a little detail in the Playhouse comfort station of

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Speaker 1: the Harlem section of Riverside Park that has found nowhere

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Speaker 1: else in the park. The wrought iron trellises of the

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Speaker 1: park's other playhouse and comfort stations are decorated with designs

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Speaker 1: like curling waves. The wrought iron trellises of the Harlem

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Speaker 1: Playhouse comfort station are decorated with monkeys. Oh my fucking god,

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Speaker 1: not monkeys. I mean it's I mean, it's it's really

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Speaker 1: saying the quiet part a loud, if you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean. Yeah, it's it's not even yeah, it's not

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Speaker 1: the quiet park for Bob Moses, Like well, It says

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Speaker 1: a lot about New York City government culture too that

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Speaker 1: like they're having they have there has to have been

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Speaker 1: like a meeting where they're like, how should we uh

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Speaker 1: and what what do you what do you want on

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Speaker 1: these on these playground Treillis is in the Harlem side

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Speaker 1: of the park, should we just add like the more

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Speaker 1: of those wave designs? And He's like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: let's put some monkeys in there. And everyone was just like,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, okay, go right along with it. They definitely

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Speaker 1: had to have a meeting where this was decided and

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Speaker 1: everybody agree it was a good idea that he must

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Speaker 1: have signed off on it. All of that. Yeah, Now

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Speaker 1: that Bloomberg quote, because again it's very funny to me

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Speaker 1: as opposed to just saying that, like look his his

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Speaker 1: Like anytime you talk about like a powerful white dude

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Speaker 1: who's like Legacy was for a long time beloved but

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Speaker 1: also was super fucked up, you have to call it

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Speaker 1: complex um, which is I guess true because he was.

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Speaker 1: He had a lot of power that he exercised in

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Speaker 1: a variety of ways, and that is complicated. His racism

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Speaker 1: isn't complicated the fact that he also made some playgrounds

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Speaker 1: for black people is not does not make it complicated

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Speaker 1: that he did all of this, other that he bulldozed

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Speaker 1: neighborhoods and made people refugees. Right, it doesn't make it's

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Speaker 1: like saying, hey, there was a complicated figure, right, he

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Speaker 1: had he made some mistakes in Eastern Europe, But the

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Speaker 1: Volkswagen is a pretty good car. Right. That's a complex legacy,

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Speaker 1: you know, Like you wouldn't say that. Um, some people

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Speaker 1: would say that, And Bloomberg fails to note in their

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Speaker 1: talking about his complicated legacy that while Moses made two

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Speaker 1: and fifty five playgrounds in New York City during the

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, do you want to guess how many we're

428
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 1: putting Harlem? Oh? How many? One? Uh, that's one more

429
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,199
Speaker 1: than I thought you were a park? What more do

430
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 1: you want? Well, it really reminds me of how we

431
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,360
Speaker 1: started the previous episode about talking about sort of like

432
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 1: how people can be like patronized in this way where

433
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 1: it's like we'll give you a little something, but like

434
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 1: you know, it's just crumbs, and we know it's just crumbs,

435
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 1: and like you should still enjoy the park, and like

436
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,159
Speaker 1: you shouldn't turn up your nose at this park. But

437
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,879
Speaker 1: like you know, if you live in Harlem, you don't have,

438
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 1: Like you live in Harlem, what more do you want?

439
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 1: Do you want more than one park? Because like if

440
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,719
Speaker 1: you haven't noticed your poor so like yeah, and we

441
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 1: need that space to to shotgun traffic into your neighborhood

442
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: so the rich people don't have to see it and

443
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: small and like keep you out. And this this was

444
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 1: this by the way, Like obviously there's other black wound

445
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: at neighborhoods in New York such as Stuyvesant Heights and

446
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 1: South Jamaica in this period, and in both of those

447
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: neighborhoods together he built a combined one park in the

448
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties. UH nineteen forty three grand jury investigation into

449
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 1: the high crime rates in Stuyvesant in the neighborhood found

450
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: one of the major causes was a complete lack of

451
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 1: recreational facilities there, which again for nineteen forty three a

452
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 1: pretty reasonable finding that like, well, yeah, one of the

453
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: reasons crime is so high is there's fucking nothing to do,

454
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: Like are our neighborhood is a parking lot, there's no parks,

455
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 1: there's nowhere for people to like go be um so

456
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 1: like kids get up to fucking ship. Um. Now, A

457
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 1: stark example of how differently Moses valued projects meant for

458
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: white and black people can be seen in the fact

459
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 1: that he spent eight million dollars per mile on parks

460
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 1: in the Western Manhattan Waterfront. These parks butted up against

461
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 1: an almost all white neighborhood. Uh. Meanwhile, the four point

462
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: seven mile stretch of the park that butted up against

463
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: Harlem cost one point seven million per mile. So you've

464
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: got this big long park, the Western Manhattan Waterfront Park,

465
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: which is a huge park, eight million dollars per mile

466
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 1: in the parts of the park that are next doors

467
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: in white neighborhoods one point seven million per mile, and

468
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,880
Speaker 1: the parts that touch Harlem. Right, it's just very blatant

469
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 1: when you actually look at the numbers. Um. Not a subtleman. Yeah,

470
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,880
Speaker 1: these these disparities are very stark. And again the fact

471
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: that there are still people today who would look at

472
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: his legacy and be like, oh, well, it's unfair to

473
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 1: judge him by the standard, or it's very complex. It's like, no,

474
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: it's not, it's not very complex. Well, and they make

475
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 1: it part of like it is within their interest to

476
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: make it seem complex. And part of how they do that,

477
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: and this isn't just with Bob Moses, this is this

478
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: is like what that kind of person does with everything

479
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: is they'll zero in on some incredibly specific niche detail

480
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: and so let's start arguing, like, well, what about this

481
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 1: specific bridge, because this bridge, if you actually look at it,

482
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: they say it's this height, but really it would have

483
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 1: been this height at this point, and like if this

484
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: bridge is that size, and like number one, they're ignoring

485
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: a lot of other bridges. But also by zeroing in

486
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 1: on this one thing that they can claim was was

487
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: not wholly accurate about his legacy, they focus the discussion

488
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: about this single rather than like the broad picture of

489
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: how fucking racist the development that he engaged in was.

490
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: And it's broad ranging consequences and they're always going to

491
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: have with anything like this, one or two things they

492
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,719
Speaker 1: can redirect around, Like so the heart that they who

493
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: built the best park in the city and it's in

494
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: a black neighborhood and it's like, yeah, well, how many

495
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,239
Speaker 1: other parks city build in black neighborhoods, right, Like how

496
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: much did you spend on I'm compared to the white

497
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: neighborhoods right, but they don't. They don't want to have

498
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: like again, this is just this is how you kind

499
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 1: of redirect the topic of discussion and anger away from

500
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: things people should be angry about and things that like

501
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: have negatively impacted their lives, um and just try to

502
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 1: be like, well, he was complicated, and we're not denying

503
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: that there were problems with the man. But boy, look

504
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 1: at look at the how nice this one park was,

505
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: and look at how pretty these bridges are. And it's like, well,

506
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 1: why don't those bridges have transit access or why did

507
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: it cost an extra two million to put it in?

508
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: And any way, Robert Moses operated with almost unchecked power

509
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: until the late nineteen fifties, when resistance to his policies

510
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: finally started to build. Uh and I'm gonna quote now

511
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: from the Culture Trip. Often intransigent and prone to belligerence,

512
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 1: Moses grew complacent. A series of flubs, such as a

513
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: public tussle with the Shakespeare in the Park initiative, exposed

514
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: him to criticism. More broadly, his rip it Up and

515
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: Started Again approach to urbanism had begun to come under attack.

516
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: His plan for a Lower Manhattan Expressway, which would see

517
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: neighborhoods such as Greenwich Village and Soho leveled became a

518
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: crisis point. Activists, including the journalist Jane Jacobs, who Moses

519
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: never met but has come to be seen as his

520
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 1: most eloquent nemesis, argued for a mixed use, street scaled,

521
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: community conscious city rather than one driven from above by

522
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: the all powerful planners. He was finally stripped of most

523
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,479
Speaker 1: of his offices in nineteen sixty two, when state Governor

524
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: Nelson Rockefeller accepted a resignation that Moses had intended as

525
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 1: a feint. By this time, he had become so despised

526
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: that the destruction of Pennsylvania Station, which he had no

527
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: hand in, were penned on his ideology. So he does

528
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: like the tight of public opinion turns against him, But

529
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: it's because he like Fox with Shakespeare in the Park

530
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 1: and tries to build an expressway that would have destroyed

531
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: Soho at Greenwich Village. Like it's because he got he

532
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 1: like goes kind of mad with power, and people are like, well,

533
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: number one, the folks that you're attempting to funk over

534
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: with your policies has changed your exerting power against the folks.

535
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: You're exerting power against are like wealthier than they used

536
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: to be and wider than they used to be. So

537
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: that's going to be a problem for you. Um, but yeah,

538
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 1: it's it takes forty years of of of basically having

539
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,959
Speaker 1: total power over like construction in the city of New

540
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: York for any of that to happen. Yeah, it's so

541
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: funny to me that you say that he was even

542
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: though he wasn't involved in Penn Station. It's like his

543
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: his ideology is sort of what shaped it. I don't

544
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: know if you have been to Penn Station lately, but

545
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: there is not a fucking single place to just sit

546
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 1: the funk down for one second. It's like, it's like

547
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 1: I have never seen anything like it. And it's like

548
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: even though he wasn't involved in that, in that redesign,

549
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: but there's no place to sit. So he shaped And

550
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: we're about to talk about this nationally, the attitudes towards

551
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: how you use architecture and how you use the layout

552
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: of a city to stop things like people sitting where

553
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: you don't want them, right, like the wrong people sitting

554
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: where you don't want them to sit, you know, exactly.

555
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: And it's so fund up because like even if you're

556
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: saying like, oh, we don't want on house people to

557
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: be sitting here, blah blah blah. That's sucked up. But

558
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: even if that's what you're going for, it makes the

559
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: experience worse for everyone, right, Like everyone loses, well everyone

560
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: but Bob Moses. I mean he eventually lost, but you know,

561
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: and he does. One of the things that's nice is yeah,

562
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: he gets he kind of ends his career in disgrace,

563
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: like he he does a power play with Nelson Rockefeller

564
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, I'm going to resign if you

565
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: don't do this, and Rockefeller is like okay. Um, So

566
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: he doesn't get to destroy Soho or Gringach Village, which,

567
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: depending on your opinions of those neighborhoods, could either be

568
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: seen as a good or a bad thing. Um. He

569
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: does live to see the publication in nineteen seventy four

570
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: of The Power Broker by Robert Carrow, which effectively Sabbage,

571
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: savages his reputation and paints him as an outrageous bigot.

572
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: He spends his last years in a state of modest disgrace,

573
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: rich white person disgrace until he dies in nineteen eighty one.

574
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: By the time he passed, the New York City subway

575
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: system was in a disastrous state of repair. The financial

576
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: crisis of the nineteen seventies contributed to this, of course,

577
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: but the fact that Moses has been decades worth of

578
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: boom time money on choking highways played a larger role.

579
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: One year after his death, the m t A announced

580
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: a massive plan to revitalize the transit system. It has

581
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: remained in a state of deferred maintenance ever since, right,

582
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: Like this is I mean, you know, right, have you been? Right? Yeah?

583
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: I love the New York City subway system, but it

584
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: is not in It is in a state of disrepair,

585
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: and it has been for a really long time. And

586
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: it's it's a I guess we're talking about infrastructure from

587
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: so long ago that it has never really been updated

588
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: or modernized. No, and it part of why is because

589
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: Bob Moses made it a lot harder to do it.

590
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna quote from a write up by Curb

591
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: to kind of make that point. As Raskin says, we're

592
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: still playing catch up from the mt A program initiated

593
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, and the current stakes are much higher,

594
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: as wridership levels recently hit the highest numbers since ninety eight.

595
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: Just this week, the MTA began the slow process of

596
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: addressing those issues. Chairman Joe Lhota revealed an eight hundred

597
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: and thirty six million dollar, thirty point action plan to

598
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: address the key drivers that account for subway delays and

599
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: system failures. As he said in a press conference announcing

600
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: the plan, we're here because the city New York City

601
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: subway system is in distress. But some see it as

602
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: too little, too late. Despite Moses's focus on highway development,

603
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: modern day New York emerged as a city whose inhabitants

604
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: depend not just on automobiles, but trains, buses, ferries, and bicycles.

605
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: And the period of development under Moses stands as one

606
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: of New York's great lost opportunities to invest in and

607
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: expand public transit. Because when it comes to Moses, as

608
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: Draper puts it, if he wanted to get it done,

609
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,959
Speaker 1: it absolutely would have been done. And that's what an

610
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: indictment he had. This was again, there was more money

611
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: back then, there was more money to put into and

612
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: it was cheaper to do these developments. And when that

613
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: we had this kind of precious period that would not

614
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: wind up coming again. He poured all the money into

615
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: highways that he made deliberately like difficult to add transit to.

616
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: And that's like if you actually think this is not

617
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: a man who like murdered people, right, But if you

618
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: think about the lost human hours and like traffic and

619
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: transit in New York City, I don't know if that

620
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: seems like a body count, right, especially comedy people died

621
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: by getting hit by cars or whatever, run over across

622
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: walks and ship who might not have been if the

623
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: city had been built by a guy who was not

624
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: basing his attitudes on traffic on how nice it is

625
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: to be driven around in a limousine. Absolutely, and just

626
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: like asked someone who lived in New York not that

627
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: long ago, just the quality that the quality of life like,

628
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: I don't know. I I firmly believe that poor people

629
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: people around people, we doesn't we still do we deserve

630
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: like a nice quality of life. We didn't don't deserve

631
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: to be sitting in traffic and being claws like like

632
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: having all the respiratory and health impacts of things like

633
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: you know, environmental factors, like I think that it's easy

634
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: to not see these as deliberate choices and deliberate like

635
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: strategies to make our lives more difficult. And I think

636
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: the last he may not have murdered people, but the

637
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: lasting legacy of that, I think is really really something

638
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: to contend with. Yeah, it is something to contend with.

639
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: And you know what else is something to contend with,

640
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: bridget what's that the sponsors of this show. Uh, we're

641
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: back um talking about the legacy of Robert Moses and

642
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: probably you know, we've just talked about his influence on

643
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: the subway, which is extremely negative, and a number of

644
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: things he did in New York, Um and how people

645
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: are still grappling with the consequences of that to this day.

646
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: Perhaps the greater long term consequence of Robert Moses, though,

647
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: is the concept of exclusionary architecture. Well, again, he didn't.

648
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: He's not the first guy to do this. He was

649
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: its most successful, influential, long standing practitioner, and his work

650
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: provided models for cities around the United States. In Detroit

651
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty, a private developer constructed an eight mile long,

652
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: six foot high wall to separate an existing black neighborhood

653
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: from a new white one in development. You may recognize

654
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: this from the eminem documentary Eight Mile Now This was

655
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: not done just because the constructing company was racist. This

656
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: was done because the Federal Housing Administration at the time

657
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: refused to finance new developments and less neighborhoods were segregated.

658
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: The wall still exists today, and Detroit is still the

659
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: most segregated metropolitan area in the country. Another divider is

660
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: a tin foot high, fifteen hundred foot long fence that

661
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: separated the mostly white development of Hamden, Connecticut, from the

662
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: majority black housing projects of New Haven. The fence, erected

663
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, was eventually torn down in two

664
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: thousand fourteen, but in the decades prior, it meant that

665
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: residents of New Haven had to travel seven point seven

666
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: miles just to buy groceries at a store three miles away. Right, Like,

667
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: that's again, and we talked about food deserts. This is

668
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: come down just in like what happened in Buffalo, right

669
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 1: the mass shooting at the at that supermarket, which like

670
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 1: people had to fight for for years to get because

671
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: of ship like this um due to inadequate public transportation

672
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: in New Haven. It took two hours to complete this journey.

673
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: And again, Bob Moses is a New York guy. He

674
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 1: barely leaves that fucking state. His work is in New York,

675
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: and you're not going to find people saying Bob Moses

676
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: told us to do this in Detroit, Bob Moses told

677
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: us to do this in New Haven. But as New

678
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: York goes, so goes an awful lot of As we

679
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: talked about f DR patterns, the way his government is

680
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: kind of set his administration is set up during the

681
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: New Deal on New York. It is a model in

682
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: a lot of ways for the rest of the country.

683
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: So people are following Bob's example, right, Not that they

684
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: not that they would not have tried to segregate neighborhoods

685
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: if he hadn't been around, But he provides a very

686
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: effective bluep it for how to do it. He's good

687
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: at it, and people pay attention. You know. Um. And

688
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to close out this episode, probably by quoting

689
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 1: from the Yale Law Review quote. Often cities use barriers

690
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: and blockades to mold traffic patterns. For example, the concrete

691
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: barriers and ballards that exist throughout the streets of Berkeley, California,

692
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: were installed to calm traffic. However, the barriers do this

693
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: by preventing people from driving down the streets on which

694
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: they are placed. In Shaker Heights, Ohio, the city installed

695
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: a traffic diverter, which was called the Berlin Wall, for

696
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: black people by nearby neighbors in Cleveland. Yeah, I mean again,

697
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: people always like, know, how fucked up this is? Right? Oh?

698
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: People know? And again, like, I think that you've done

699
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: a great job of showing how like not only was

700
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: it effective, but it gave that like plausible deniability of

701
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: like it's you. You can't say he specifically is the

702
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: reason he didn't tell them to do this, But people know,

703
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: people feel it in their communities, like you you know

704
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: when you're being boxed out. Yeah, you know when you're

705
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: being boxed out. And it's like, again, this is a

706
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: broader problem than Bob Moses. He's just one of the

707
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: most successful problems solvers in the community of people trying

708
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: to solve the problem of folks who aren't rich and

709
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: white hanging out near folks who are rich and white, right, Like,

710
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 1: that's that's that's what's happening here. I'm going to continue

711
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: that quote. In some communities, the purpose of rerouting traffic

712
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: is to inhibit harmful behaviors tied to drugs and crime.

713
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: Concrete barriers were put in place near the highways of Bridgeport, Connecticut,

714
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: to block quick access into the city by those who

715
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: wanted to buy drugs. The strategy, according to police, was

716
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: that buyers would fear driving all over looped streets, stopping

717
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: and turning around trying to find drugs with the possibility

718
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 1: of having their nice cars though jewelry their money ripped

719
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: off as they look. A similar technique was implemented in

720
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, which put traffic barriers in place on certain

721
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: streets that allegedly provided quick escape routes for gang members

722
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 1: who had committed crimes. Sometimes transit will allow a person

723
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: to get close to a given area, but not all

724
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: the way. They're leaving the writer in a dangerous situation.

725
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: This was the scenario faced by Cynthia Wiggins, a seventeen

726
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: year old woman who was hit and killed by a

727
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: dump truck while she was attempting to cross a seven

728
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: lane highway to get to the mall where she worked.

729
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 1: Wiggins took the bus from the inner city where she lived,

730
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: to her job at the suburban mall. However, the mall's

731
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: owners had actively resisted requests to allow the bus to

732
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: stop on its property. Rather, the bus stopped outside the

733
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: mall on the other side of a large highway. Documents

734
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: produced during the trial revealed that this transit sitting decision

735
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: was motivated at least in part by race or class bias.

736
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: A local transport official wrote in an internal document that

737
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: quote mall decision makers feel it will not bring the

738
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: type of people they want to come to the mall.

739
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 1: One mall retail store owner recalled a conversation with a

740
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: mall official who said something like the people who rode

741
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 1: the Walden Avenue bus were not the kind of people

742
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: they were trying to attract to the Walden Galleria. The

743
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: mall did, however, allow some charter buses to stop on

744
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: its property. Members of Buffalo's black community asserted that the

745
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: mall was trying to use the highway as a moat

746
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: to exclude some city residents, a classic example of architecture exclusion.

747
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,280
Speaker 1: The case settled, but it presents a stark exam ample

748
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: of the dangers inherent in exclusionary transit design. And so again,

749
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: like there's a there's body counts to this ship, right,

750
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: like when the walls are made up of moats of

751
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: fast moving cars. People are going to die trying to

752
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: get from A to B. People who can't afford public trains.

753
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: People are gonna get arrested hopping onto public transit because

754
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: they can't afford it, because it's expensive because funds have

755
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: been drained away, Like people are going to the consequences

756
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: of all this are so titanic and echo out so

757
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: widely in our society, and they all come down to like, well,

758
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: we don't think it's good for the mall if certain

759
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 1: people come here, right, it's not good for this neighborhood

760
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: and Manhattan if certain if the traffic comes out here,

761
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: so we'll rout it the Harlem and will put more

762
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: lead into like the air in Harlem and will put

763
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: more traffic onto the streets and where kids will get hit, right, Like,

764
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 1: it's not. The plan is not I want more black

765
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 1: kids to have bad lungs and to get hit by cars.

766
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: The plan is I want to protect this nice neighborhood

767
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 1: from the consequences of the traffic that I have needlessly

768
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: increased in the city. But that's what happens, you know,

769
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: and who cares if there's a human cost, If that

770
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: cost is poor or black or brown, well, and it's

771
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: you know, the argument is always the argument always comes

772
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: down to when you're looking at the people who are

773
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: like defending this ship, Well, I just want my neighborhood

774
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: to be nice. I just want my housing price to

775
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: go up, right, I just I I uh, you know,

776
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: I don't I, as the person spending all this money

777
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: on this mall and this business, have a right to

778
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: try to ensure that like the right kind of people

779
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: come here that like, you know, isn't that isn't that

780
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: important too. I'm trying to keep I'm trying to improve

781
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 1: the neighborhood right and and and the justifications change through time.

782
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: Now you would have a lot of trouble being like

783
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: we're going to build a nightmare highway interchange system with

784
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: a bunch of like loops in order to stop people

785
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: from buying drugs in this neighborhood. Um. But instead it's like, well,

786
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: we need to, um, we need to carry out this

787
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: project to like make it more difficult for homeless people

788
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: to like sleep under this overpass, or we need to

789
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: carry out this project, like we want to put a

790
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 1: park here. We want to keep this space green and open,

791
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: so we can't allow um new construction it would ruin

792
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: the look of the neighborhood if we allowed higher density

793
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: housing developments to live here, right, don't people deserve to

794
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: have like their property values stay high and whatnot? Like

795
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,919
Speaker 1: it's it's these are the kind of things we're talking

796
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: a lot these days about, like the literal Nazis and

797
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: the literal fascists always trying to take power. But it's

798
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: worth noting that, like for decades a lot of the

799
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: worst problems in our country that have like contributed massively

800
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: to everything that's wrong with it. Today, we're like not

801
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: people being like I seek a white ethno state, but

802
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: we're people being like, well, I have a right to

803
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 1: and I have a right to look out at a

804
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 1: nice hill, don't I? Yeah? And I think like what

805
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: you describe that as sort of soft power. I think

806
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,919
Speaker 1: that it's almost kind of more dangerous that we associated

807
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: with like well, like like it's on its face, that's

808
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: so that's so relatable. It's like, of course you want

809
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: green spaces and pretty places and blah blah blah. Like

810
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 1: that really allows for people to do a lot a

811
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 1: lot of like pretty terrible stuff that has a human

812
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: cost um without really having to take take ownership of

813
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: how bad some of that stuff is. Yeah, we don't.

814
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 1: We're not talking about this today. Perhaps we should. We'll

815
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: get to it at some point, but like, there's a

816
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 1: lot to be said about And I love the National parks.

817
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: Who doesn't like a nice park, But there's a tremendous

818
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: amount of racism in the National park system and how

819
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: it's constructed and why it's constructed, in the idea that

820
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: like white people need a place to go be in nature. Um,

821
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: and that doesn't include indigenous people, right, because then we

822
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: can't claim that this is untamed wilderness because actually it

823
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: was all like tamed and heavily like regulated by different

824
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: societies for thousands and thousands of years. Um. But we're

825
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: going to kick them off and we're going to like

826
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 1: try to manage it ourselves. And oh god, now there's

827
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 1: forest fires everywhere because it turns out we actually suck

828
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: at forestry. Um, let's sell access to our forests to

829
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: people who want to make paper and do that under

830
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: the ages of we're protecting the forest from forest fires.

831
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: Oh no, everything keeps getting worse. Um. Anyway, it's all

832
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: like it's all the same story one way or the other.

833
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 1: It's it's this like, I want things to be nice

834
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: in a specific way where I live, so I'm going

835
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: to push these laws to protect the area around me

836
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: or to make this thing that I want to have happen.

837
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: But there's all these knock on effects, and you ignore

838
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 1: or shut down anyone who complains about the knockdown effects,

839
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: knock on effects by saying like, well, I have a

840
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: right to this, you know, I have a right to

841
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: keep my neighborhood this way. I have a right to

842
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 1: to drive a car. You know, I have a right

843
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: to one another high way, to one less traffic. Um.

844
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: And I don't want to spend money on the public

845
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 1: transit system. UM. I don't like public right like I

846
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: have a right to want my city to be this way. Um.

847
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 1: But of course, the reality is always that even though

848
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 1: they justify it as saying they're doing it for the people,

849
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: they're doing it for this community, they're doing it for

850
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,919
Speaker 1: the city. UM, it's always done for a tiny chunk

851
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: of the people who live in that city. And it's

852
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: it's again often administrated by people like Robert Moses, who

853
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 1: are all either completely unelected or who, because of the

854
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: nature of local politics, are elected by like five dudes right, like, yeah,

855
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: it's cool. It also manifests in like a lot of

856
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: different ways where people like prioritize like a building over people,

857
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: and like like like a pile of bricks matters more

858
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,479
Speaker 1: than than than a person. We saw that a lot

859
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: in people are like, well, but there's property damage, don't

860
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: I don't care, Like I don't care about your building.

861
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: I'm sorry it doesn't have It's not a person. It's

862
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: very insane, Like I've gotten caught up in a degree

863
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: of this myself where it's like I don't like I

864
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: don't like living in in like I don't like condos, um,

865
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: I don't like the way they look. And it was

866
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 1: had to be pointed out to me by like a friend,

867
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: and again I had like an argument over this and

868
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,479
Speaker 1: they pointed out, like no, they actually like they do.

869
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 1: Like while there are stupid luxury developments that are dumb,

870
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 1: the higher density housing lowers housing prices, lowers rent prices,

871
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,720
Speaker 1: like it makes areas more affordable, and people who cannot

872
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: afford a house are not going to afford a house

873
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: under the current system. But if you allow this thing

874
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: to be subdivided in such a way, they can't afford

875
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: to actually own and thus not be like fucking renting

876
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,479
Speaker 1: a place and subject to all of the fun UPHI

877
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 1: about the rental market, or we get moved to have

878
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: to like live on a trailer park, which are really

879
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: problematic in a lot of exploitative ways. And like, as

880
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: a general rule, I believe in keeping as much of

881
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,879
Speaker 1: the world as possible free of development, but we're going

882
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 1: to have cities, and cities should be high density and

883
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: geared towards being livable as high density things because that's

884
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: what makes sense environmentally and it's what makes them more humane.

885
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: Right yeah, yeah, anyway, Robert moses, just people need to

886
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 1: care more about people and less about piles of bricks,

887
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: less about piles of bricks and uh yeah, I don't know, um,

888
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: build more public transit burned down the carry out a

889
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: series of terrorist attacks on the on the are we

890
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,760
Speaker 1: not should we not urge a series of terrorist attacks?

891
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: That is that a federal crime Sophie problem? Okay, well,

892
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: let's bleep all of that out and adding me doing

893
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 1: a plug for um because loves our nation's highway system

894
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 1: and interstate system because it's the most efficient way to

895
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: kidnap children. Right when they try to head into the

896
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 1: bathroom at a race track or something bam, and then

897
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: they're off to the island and Indonesia where we hunt

898
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: them for sport. That's the promise, Sophie. No children are safe, Bridget,

899
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 1: do you have any plugables for us? I sure do.

900
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. You can hear

901
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 1: me on my podcast there are no girls on the internet.

902
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Bridget Marie or

903
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Bridget Marie in d C. Well lovely,

904
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: Thank you, Bridget. Thanks for talking fucking parks policy and ship. No,

905
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 1: this was this was this fun than like people being

906
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, taken out back and shot. You know,

907
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: it's not not cheery, but it wasn't you know, it

908
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: wasn't as dark as I thought it was to be. Yeah,

909
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: you've gotta understand guys like this because they they exercise

910
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: just as much an influence on like why things are bad. Um,

911
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: But they're just like guys in suits who who are

912
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: building stuff in ways that's like secretly really shitty and

913
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 1: it's it's just much. It's it's a kind of evil.

914
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 1: I guess we don't get into enough, like it's it's

915
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: it's that kind of UM. It's it's more subtle than

916
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 1: like Mitch McConnell evil, which I think is the kind

917
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: of political evil we're used to. UM, but it has

918
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 1: just as much of an impact. And so yeah, uh,

919
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 1: if you want to read pages about Robert Moses, check

920
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:42,280
Speaker 1: out The Power Broker. UM. Otherwise, just like, drive around

921
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 1: in New York City and you'll be you'll be the

922
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: proper amount of angry. I'm walking here, yeah. Exactly Behind

923
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. For

924
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 1: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone

925
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: media dot com, or check us out on the I

926
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.