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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. It's said by many

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Speaker 1: that two the toughest things you'll ever face in life

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Speaker 1: are the death of a loved one and a divorce.

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Speaker 1: Now I've personally, I've experienced both, and I've got to

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Speaker 1: say there there's a certain degree of peace that comes

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Speaker 1: along with death. You know, For me, being a person

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Speaker 1: that believes in God, there's some comfort in that. I

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Speaker 1: think the struggles on this life are at an end

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Speaker 1: in this world, not so much with divorce. Sometimes it

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Speaker 1: feels as though that you're dragging your bare knuckles across

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Speaker 1: asphalt every single day, with every phone call that's made,

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Speaker 1: with every cry of a child that is broken as

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Speaker 1: a result of a divorce. And then there are the

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Speaker 1: weekends when you have to do the handoff. It does,

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Speaker 1: after a while get easier, but in the beginning it's awkward,

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Speaker 1: and it's hard, and it's I don't know, it rocks

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Speaker 1: you to your core many times. Today, I want to

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Speaker 1: discuss a handoff. I want to discuss the handoff a

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Speaker 1: proposed handoff of children in a divorce situation, in a

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Speaker 1: separation situation. I want to talk about a handoff that

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Speaker 1: actually never took place and led to horrible ending for

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Speaker 1: two women. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs.

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Speaker 1: Dave macat got to ask you, have you ever heard

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Speaker 1: anybody make that comparison? Or is that the first time

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Speaker 1: you've heard that about divorce and death? I've heard it

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Speaker 1: from several people. We honestly, Uh, we have not talked

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Speaker 1: about this prior to this discussion. I just I want

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Speaker 1: to get a cold from you. Have have you heard

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Speaker 1: anybody say that before? Yeah? I have.

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Speaker 2: I've counseled people through it, having been through it myself

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Speaker 2: as a child with my parents and then as a

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Speaker 2: parent with my children. I've been through all sides of this,

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Speaker 2: and yes, that's probably the only equation that really works,

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Speaker 2: is the because you got the death of a relationship

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Speaker 2: and oftentimes you've got pseudo death of others involved you.

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Speaker 2: It's not just the couple. It's not just the man

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Speaker 2: and the woman. And it's not just the man and

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Speaker 2: the woman and their children. It's the man, the woman

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Speaker 2: and their parents, their brothers and sisters, the extended family.

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Speaker 2: And that's what we're dealing with here. We could do

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Speaker 2: days on custody issues and interpersonal relationships, but This show

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Speaker 2: today is about two moms that went missing. A little background.

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Speaker 2: Valerie Butler and Wrangler Rickman were married and had two

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Speaker 2: children who are now eight and six years old. When

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Speaker 2: Valerie Butler and Wrangler Rickman divorced, custody of the children

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Speaker 2: became an issue and has remained an issue since it began.

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Speaker 2: In twenty nineteen, a Wrangler Rickman was given custody of

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Speaker 2: the children and Valerie Butler was allowed supervised visitation every Saturday.

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Speaker 2: Due to Wrangler Rickman's own legal issues, his mother, Tiffany Adams,

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Speaker 2: took over the custody of the children, and Adams made

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Speaker 2: it difficult for a Valerie Butler to see her children,

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Speaker 2: but not just that, she made it difficult for her

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Speaker 2: own son to see his children. So Valerie Butler sees

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Speaker 2: her children every Saturday. On this particular visitation, Butler brings

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Speaker 2: along Jilly and Kelly. She is a pastor's wife. She's

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Speaker 2: very involved in her community. She and Valerie Butler are

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Speaker 2: not like really big friends, their acquaintances and Jilly and

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Speaker 2: Kelly is the perfect fit for the court to see

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Speaker 2: as somebody who can know oversee visitation and that's why

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Speaker 2: she went with Valerie Butler. So the two women leave Hugoton, Kansas,

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Speaker 2: where they live, traveling about forty five miles to a

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Speaker 2: closed down gas station in Texas County, Oklahoma that's in

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Speaker 2: the Panhandle, very very rural county. Valerie Butler was supposed

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Speaker 2: to pick up her children and take them to a

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Speaker 2: birthday party. When Valerie Butler Jillian Kelly don't show up

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Speaker 2: with the children at the birthday party, friends got worried

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Speaker 2: and they start looking. Jillian Kelly's husband, Pastor Heath Kelly,

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Speaker 2: is called first, Hey man, they're not here. He grabs

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Speaker 2: a pastor friend of his and they immediately drive the

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Speaker 2: route they believe the women would travel, going from Hugoton,

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Speaker 2: Kansas to where they were planning to meet at the

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Speaker 2: gas station in Texas County, Oklahoma. We've got two missing moms,

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Speaker 2: six children by the way, two for Veronica, four r

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Speaker 2: Jillian six children, two moms, and they're missing. And the

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Speaker 2: person they were supposed to meet is Veronica Butler's ex

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Speaker 2: mother in law who had the children. They were setting

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Speaker 2: it up to meet at a gas station that was

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Speaker 2: closed down in the middle. It wasn't at the x

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Speaker 2: mother in law's home. It wasn't in the parking lot

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Speaker 2: of a McDonald or Walmart. It was a closed gas station. Now,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna be honest with you, a closed gas station

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Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere. I'm not stopping there. If

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Speaker 2: I've got a flat tire, I'm driving on the rim

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Speaker 2: until i hit the next town.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I keep envisioning, you know, when they said closed

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Speaker 1: gas station, I'm thinking maybe nineteen sixties air gas pumps

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Speaker 1: out front that are all rusted in, the glasses busted out.

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Speaker 2: That's when they closed it down. Joe was back then.

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Speaker 2: It's closed for a long time, a long time. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it's got that patina on it that's terrifying, and

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Speaker 1: all of the wind, the pane glass in the front

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Speaker 1: of it, it's all knocked out, and it hasn't been

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Speaker 1: kept up. So that's what I'm getting in this issue.

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Speaker 1: And here here's a thing this area, Dave. When you

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Speaker 1: begin to take a look at it, you take that

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Speaker 1: bird's eye view of the geography of this location, east, west,

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Speaker 1: north or south, it just goes on and on and on.

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Speaker 1: It's the great Plains, and out of the great plains

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Speaker 1: and out of this set of circumstances, a great mystery developed.

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Speaker 1: I can tell you this. When they found these women's

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Speaker 1: car out in an isolated area a long ways away

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Speaker 1: from the road, it was a stuff of nightmares. It is.

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Speaker 1: They love to you know, they love to use the

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Speaker 1: term remote drop. Have you ever heard that term? Day, Like,

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Speaker 1: if there's a movie that's on television, it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things where you drop the remote. You're not going

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Speaker 1: to change from it. It doesn't happen how many times

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Speaker 1: you've seen it. And with this case in particular, one

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Speaker 1: of the movies that comes to mind, even though it's

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Speaker 1: set in Texas, I get the vision. I have the

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Speaker 1: vision that it looks like that is the movie Giant

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Speaker 1: with Rock Hudson and James Dean and Elizabeth Taylor. No

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Speaker 1: matter where you look, stretching out into the horizons, it's

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Speaker 1: just nothing but wilderness. And I don't mean like tree

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Speaker 1: lined wilderness. I'm talking about like prairie. It looks like

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Speaker 1: it's desert maybe in any direction, and you can't see

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Speaker 1: a living soul anywhere. And that's kind of this desolate

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Speaker 1: you know, almost like moonscape. You know that they're they're

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Speaker 1: traveling through at this point in time where where precisely

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Speaker 1: was this vehicle found.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't like driving down a highway and you're on

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Speaker 2: the shoulder, had a flat tire off the side of

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Speaker 2: the road.

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Speaker 1: I got to stop you right there. That's when the

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Speaker 1: news reports of this case first came out. That's the

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Speaker 1: impression that I had. That's that's the way the news

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Speaker 1: media had painted it, that it was on the side

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Speaker 1: of the road. And I'm thinking flat tire. I'm thinking,

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Speaker 1: you know, like like steam escaping up out of the hood,

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Speaker 1: you know, or you know, out of the grill. You're thinking,

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Speaker 1: they're broken down side of the road, And what a

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Speaker 1: what a hellish place to break down too well, because

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Speaker 1: anywhere you look there's nowhere to not to really turn

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Speaker 1: for assistance. You got to flag somebody down to try

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Speaker 1: to lend a hand here.

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Speaker 2: And hope it's a flying saucer because you are in

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Speaker 2: the middle of nowhere.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely imagine the husband of Jiline Kelly seized the vehicle

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Speaker 2: that they were in, but it's surrounded by police. Joe,

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Speaker 2: it is surrounded by police. The women haven't been missing

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Speaker 2: that long. They're tracking their path and the vehicle was

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Speaker 2: not just on the side of the road. It had

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Speaker 2: been taken about a thousand feet okay, three and a

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Speaker 2: half football fields off the road, and it was on

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Speaker 2: a dirt path. So even if you know, you see

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Speaker 2: a car on the side of the road, we all

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Speaker 2: see that. But if you see a car that is

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Speaker 2: not on the side of the road, is off in

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Speaker 2: the middle of a field and is just sitting there,

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Speaker 2: it would stick out like a sore thumb, which is

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Speaker 2: exactly what this one did. That's why when the Jillian

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Speaker 2: Kelly's husband pulled up and saw the cops all around it,

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Speaker 2: the police saw it and said, this doesn't belong here,

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Speaker 2: but it's what they found, Joe, what they found around

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Speaker 2: the car and in the car that made them. That's

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Speaker 2: why we reported the missing Mom's store because it became

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Speaker 2: huge right then. Only they didn't give us the information

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Speaker 2: that Joe is about to tell you. We didn't know

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Speaker 2: this at first. Yeah, and first off, back to the

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Speaker 2: location of the car, Dave. You know we we you

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Speaker 2: and I actually occupy geographically, we occupy an agra We

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Speaker 2: we live in an area that is really agri based.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know, we've we've got swebean fields, we've

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Speaker 2: got a lot of cotton fields. Oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: And but we we've kind of got low ridge lines

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Speaker 1: around us. You know, we've got mountains where at the

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Speaker 1: tail end of the appalation chain here, so we have

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Speaker 1: points of reference. You talked about that there, it looks

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Speaker 1: like it just goes on like a sea of land,

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Speaker 1: if you will. It's not like that where we live.

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Speaker 1: The topography is different. And if you drive by, and

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Speaker 1: this is kind of what I've envisioned, when you drive

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Speaker 1: by a field that turns the fields are running on,

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Speaker 1: you'll see these little dirt roads and most of the

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Speaker 1: time those are farms service roads. It's where if you've

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Speaker 1: ever gotten behind and I know you and I both

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Speaker 1: have you get behind a combine driving down the road,

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Speaker 1: or a tractor that's pulling a wagon full of cotton.

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Speaker 1: You're there all day. You better pack lunch. But they

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Speaker 1: have to. They want to turn off the road to

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Speaker 1: get on these these field access roads, and they're narrow.

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Speaker 1: You can only get one vehicle down at a time.

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Speaker 1: And my suspicion is looking at the landscape, this looks

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Speaker 1: like farmland on either side. It's certainly not as rich

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Speaker 1: and fertile appearing as it is here. You know, our

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Speaker 1: dirt is like really dark kind of black dirt there though.

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Speaker 1: It's a different kind of world that they inhabit. And

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Speaker 1: so you know, you've got a vehicle that's that's sitting

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Speaker 1: out there, and it would stand out, like you said,

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Speaker 1: like a sore thumb. It's an evidence rich area, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: You know when you think about what's left behind out there.

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Speaker 2: Well, when they first started telling the story, again, as

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Speaker 2: somebody who reports on these, you know, I'm pulling, I'm

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Speaker 2: pulling all kinds of sources and resources. I'm calling friends

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Speaker 2: who are geographically in the area. Just would you mind

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Speaker 2: asking a question for me, you know, the guy. And

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Speaker 2: there were a couple of things that hit me right

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Speaker 2: off the bat the minute they found the car, Joe,

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Speaker 2: I'm when I said the minute. The reason all the

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Speaker 2: cars were out there is because they did get a

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Speaker 2: head's up call. Hey, we got two moms that were

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Speaker 2: driving forty five minutes. They never arrived. Be on the

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Speaker 2: lookout for them. It wasn't like an amberor alert. You've

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Speaker 2: got two adult women. They can go where they want.

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Speaker 2: But because of who they were, where they were headed,

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Speaker 2: and what didn't happen right right, and so their car

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Speaker 2: is seen and again it's three miles from the meeting place.

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Speaker 2: It is off the road they would be traveling, but

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Speaker 2: it is not just on the shoulder. It's a thousand

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Speaker 2: feet away.

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Speaker 1: When that shows purpose too, I got to say, Dave,

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Speaker 1: I got to stop you right there and say that

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Speaker 1: shows purpose if you're one thousand feet off of the road. Again,

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Speaker 1: we go back. This is we're not talking about a

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Speaker 1: flat tire, right, We're not talking about a mechanical thing.

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Speaker 1: You can't just teleport that car out a thoul and

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Speaker 1: feet away from the road. It was purposed out there.

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Speaker 1: Either it was driven out there because oh gee, look

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Speaker 1: there's jack rabbits out here, we're going to look at them.

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Speaker 1: Or it was driven by somebody else perhaps, or they

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Speaker 1: were forced out there, and well there was the issue.

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Speaker 2: The reason they had all the cops there because of

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Speaker 2: what they found around the vehicle the first thing police saw.

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Speaker 2: Think about this. It's in Texas County, Oklahoma, and in

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Speaker 2: covering stories, one of the things that we know that

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Speaker 2: local law enforcement likes to prove they're as good as

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Speaker 2: the big boys. They can investigate a case just as

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Speaker 2: good as anybody else and their territorial However, there are

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Speaker 2: really good law enforcement people that lack an ego in

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Speaker 2: that area, and when they see something they know is wrong,

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Speaker 2: they immediately And that's what happened here. The sheriff, I'm

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Speaker 2: telling you, Joe, I gained so much respect for this

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Speaker 2: man because around the vehicle they found puddles of blood.

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Speaker 2: They found a small amount of blood inside the vehicle,

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Speaker 2: but a thousand feet off the road, three miles from

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Speaker 2: the gas station, the closed gas station, they find the

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Speaker 2: car with puddles of blood, and the sheriff calls in

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Speaker 2: the OSBI, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation right.

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Speaker 1: Away, which, by the way, that organization in particular is

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Speaker 1: a top flight law enforcement agency. And you know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of people I think that, you know, automatically, those

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Speaker 1: of us that live in rural America, you know, we

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Speaker 1: hear what people say they think. You know, if you're

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Speaker 1: in a smaller location, that are in a less populated

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Speaker 1: area that you know, we might not be as up

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Speaker 1: to speed. Let me tell you something, these guys are fantastic.

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Speaker 1: And let me lay one more thing on you that

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma has going for it that other states don't have

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Speaker 1: going for it, even states like say, for instance, I

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Speaker 1: don't know New York or even California. Oklahoma no longer

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Speaker 1: has corner system. They have a state wide medical examiner system,

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Speaker 1: and so there's no such thing as an elected corner there.

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Speaker 1: You have a state of the art medical legal investigative agency.

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Speaker 1: You combine that with a state law enforcement agency. Wow,

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Speaker 1: their bases are going to be covered. And so that's

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Speaker 1: what's so very impressive about this. I heard one reporter

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Speaker 1: talking about this. They said that, and lots of times

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Speaker 1: you can get an idea that the reporter doesn't really understand.

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Speaker 1: In my world, they don't understand how these things are structured.

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Speaker 1: But they said, you know that remains would be taken

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Speaker 1: to a medical examiner. No, they're not being taken to

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Speaker 1: a medical examiner. They're taken to the medical examiner. And

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Speaker 1: you know how I know this because one of the

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Speaker 1: and we're going back years here, but when the Oklahoma

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Speaker 1: City happened, and I knew people that were on site

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Speaker 1: that worked at one of the stellar performances that was there,

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Speaker 1: I hate to use that term, was actually the state

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Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's office because they had to deal with such

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Speaker 1: a volume of remains that were blown to bits, let's

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Speaker 1: face it, and they were right on and that's kind

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Speaker 1: of a precursor to nine to eleven. They demonstrated how

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Speaker 1: good they were, so from an evidentiary standpoint, Yet you're

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Speaker 1: gonna want the state police on this because you know

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Speaker 1: this little county. They might not have the resources, but

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Speaker 1: there's something that will trump resources. That's awareness and preparedness.

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Speaker 1: So you know that they're plugged in at that point.

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Speaker 1: And I agree with you this sheriff, he got to

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Speaker 1: be patted on the back and he knew what he

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Speaker 1: was into. And one more thing about this, we talked

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Speaker 1: earlier about the potential volatility when you begin to think

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Speaker 1: about these handoff situations. Cops aren't walking around in the dark. Okay,

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Speaker 1: they know what happens in domestic situations. They know the

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Speaker 1: danger involved. So yet these are adult women. But you know,

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Speaker 1: anybody that has been on the streets long enough are

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Speaker 1: on the beat, if you will. They've run domestic calls.

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Speaker 1: They've run domestic calls involving separated parents and children when

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Speaker 1: and they know how dangerous these situations. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine that when they rolled up at

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Speaker 1: the scene, Dave, and they see and we don't know

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Speaker 1: how much it was at this point in time I've

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Speaker 1: heard the term. You mentioned puddles, I've heard trails again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they did say puddles, and I double check because

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Speaker 2: I'd never heard that before. But they specifically said puddles.

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Speaker 1: That gives you an idea of the dynamics of the event,

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Speaker 1: because if you're talking about most of the time, when

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Speaker 1: you think about trails of blood, you're thinking directionality. Okay,

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Speaker 1: in order to create a trail, there has to be

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Speaker 1: a point A and a point B. So let's just say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, that someone is struck in a vehicle. We

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Speaker 1: don't know how they were struck, but let's just say

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Speaker 1: someone is struck in a vehicle and they're essentially drug

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Speaker 1: across the surface. Well, that's a blood trail, or it

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Speaker 1: might be sure blood trail. But Dave, when you're talking

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Speaker 1: about a puddle, everybody hearing my voice right now, think

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Speaker 1: about this just for a second. When do we commonly

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Speaker 1: get puddles. We're talking about rain. Rain that is falling,

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Speaker 1: gravity is drawing it down to the ground and it

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Speaker 1: pulls all together. Well what does that require, Well, it

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Speaker 1: requires a certain volume, and it requires time and in

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Speaker 1: order on this dirt surface for them to see blood

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Speaker 1: that is in the confine figuration of a puddle. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about a tremendous amount of blood. And blood will

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Speaker 1: always tell about forensic evidence in a rural area. And

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Speaker 1: when I'm thinking rural right now, my friend, I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: an unpaved surface. The reason that this area out here

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Speaker 1: where this vehicle is found is so significant is that

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Speaker 1: you're not impeded by asphalt surface. You're talking about it

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Speaker 1: dirt surface, even if it's compacted. If the bodies are

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Speaker 1: not there, if they can't be found around the vehicle,

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Speaker 1: guess what that tells me. There has to be another

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Speaker 1: vehicle involved. And if no one has traveled this little

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Speaker 1: path as they're calling it, that gives us an idea

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Speaker 1: that there are probably probably tire marks on the ground

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Speaker 1: where the weight of another vehicle can be gleaned, where

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Speaker 1: the weight of that vehicle is pressing down as it

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Speaker 1: is sitting there, it's pressing down on the earth. This

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Speaker 1: is many times as effective as someone leaving from an

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Speaker 1: investigative standpoint or an evidentary standpoint, leaving behind a print

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Speaker 1: that is almost unique as a fingerprint, Dave. And there's

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Speaker 1: a lot we can learn from tire tracks. And here

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Speaker 1: here's what kind of the baseline. And this is kind

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Speaker 1: of the rule of thumb when you're talking about tires.

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Speaker 1: First off, you want to know if tires are what

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Speaker 1: are referred to as OE. OE means original equipment. That's

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Speaker 1: that gives you an indication. You know, it doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: what brand it is, whether it's a Dodge or Ford

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Speaker 1: or Chevy or Toyota or Nissan or whatever, that brand

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Speaker 1: comes off the lot with a specific OE original equipment

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Speaker 1: because you know they're contracted with I don't know, dun

341
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Speaker 1: Lap or good Year or whoever it is, and that

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Speaker 1: tire is unique to that vehicle and the tread is unique,

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Speaker 1: and you can learn a lot about it, you know,

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Speaker 1: Like if you have let's just say we're talking about

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Speaker 1: a truck. Okay, if you have a truck, well, trucks

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Speaker 1: can have all kinds of tires. You can have, say,

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Speaker 1: tires that are used for just going over paved surfaces

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Speaker 1: up and down the road. SUVs in particular, most people

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Speaker 1: that have an SUV are not going to take it

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Speaker 1: off road. They're going to haul the kids around in it,

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Speaker 1: all right, So you're not gonna have big knobby tires

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Speaker 1: on it. But then again, you've got kind of all

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Speaker 1: weather maybe these kind of weird uh you know, combo

354
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Speaker 1: tires that are all weather, all terrain they'll call them,

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Speaker 1: but yet you can still use them to commute back

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Speaker 1: and forth. And then of course, you know you got

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Speaker 1: everybody's favorite Billy Bob's you know tread, you know, big

358
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Speaker 1: jacked up tires that are going to have a very

359
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: specific tire type or pattern type that goes along with

360
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Speaker 1: this and the other thing you can learn about the tire.

361
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Speaker 1: You can determine if it's new, because those impressions many

362
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Speaker 1: times are very deep and the markings on them are

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Speaker 1: very sharp, and it's almost like a shoe shoe tread.

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Speaker 1: You can have a worn tire that you kind of

365
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Speaker 1: get a sense for it, but it might be slightly warned,

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Speaker 1: and it's the edges are not going to be sharp.

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Speaker 1: You look at at the width of the tire, and

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00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: that goes to also the width the distance between the tires.

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Speaker 1: You know, we begin to think about things like wheelbases

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Speaker 1: and the length of the vehicle and all of that.

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Speaker 2: So we have that we know there are all the

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Speaker 2: squad cars around, We know there were police vehicles surrounding

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Speaker 2: this vehicle, when they arrived at such location before reinforcements

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Speaker 2: were called in and everybody showed up, did the first

375
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Speaker 2: guy there say, Okay, back up out of this, you know,

376
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Speaker 2: because the first person there saw signs of violence, had to.

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Speaker 1: And you know, that's that's an excellent question, Dave. I

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Speaker 1: wish you were you know, my students never asked questions

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Speaker 1: like that. Thank you, Dave. That means a lot to me.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. I love adult learners. What can

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Speaker 1: I say? You know, from our perspective, Yeah, that's that's

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Speaker 1: a salient point. And here's why. With the squad cars

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Speaker 1: that are there, or the squad trucks. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of yeah, a lot of apartments that are

385
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Speaker 1: using trucks. Now, folks haven't haven't noted those are nons.

386
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Speaker 1: Those are nons. Those tires are known on those vehicles.

387
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Speaker 1: And we do this a lot with footprints where I've

388
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Speaker 1: been on cases, Dave, where there have been like police

389
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Speaker 1: officers are empts have stepped in blood when they're entering

390
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Speaker 1: into a scene, and it happens because you're trying to

391
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Speaker 1: clear the scene. And we will take impressions. You'll take

392
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Speaker 1: impressions of the first responders' shoes to separate them out

393
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Speaker 1: from anything else that was in there that had made

394
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Speaker 1: a bloody footprint. So the beauty of if there are

395
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Speaker 1: other vehicles that pulled up, you know what the equipment is.

396
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Speaker 1: And listen. All of these police departments go to one

397
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: vendor most of the time, and they're supplied with the

398
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: same tire most of the time. And you can go

399
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 1: to that and say, well, you know, Unit three oh two,

400
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: this is the tires they have on it, three oh

401
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 1: four and they've all been recently serviced, or maybe three

402
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 1: oh two got a brand new set. Three or four

403
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: is due up, but it's not happening for another month,

404
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 1: and so you can begin to separate those out. The

405
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 1: only red herring you're going to have is if a

406
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: suspect vehicle or an unknown vehicle might have the same

407
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: type of equipment on it, but what are the odds?

408
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: And so you look for that one defining thing that's

409
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 1: going along with that, and you begin to think about, well,

410
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Speaker 1: who else could it be that's there, And also the

411
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 1: directionality of the truck. And here's something kind of kind

412
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Speaker 1: of interesting. I've never been real good. I've been around

413
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 1: people that can read terrain really well. I actually worked

414
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Speaker 1: with a really interesting character at one point time that

415
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: was an excellent tracker and he could read impressions in

416
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Speaker 1: the ground give you an idea like the weight of

417
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: an individual, the age of the impression, not the person

418
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Speaker 1: making the impression, but the age. And he was known

419
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Speaker 1: to be able to tell you about the weight of

420
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Speaker 1: the individual. And you can do that with tires as well.

421
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Speaker 1: How heavy of a vehicle was this? Did the weight

422
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: change at any point in time? Isn't that interesting? You know?

423
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Speaker 1: So if you're you go in light and you come

424
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: out heavy, that impression is going to look different. But

425
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: it has to be a significant weight difference, you know,

426
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: in order to create this kind of deep, deep tread pattern.

427
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: But back to the car. You think about this pooling

428
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: of blood and it's going off and who knows what

429
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: direction was the bleeding ever stemmed? And what I mean

430
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 1: by that? Do you have these puddles that are appearing, okay,

431
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: and the puddles that are appearing, all of a sudden

432
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: they disappear like you get this motion, this movement out

433
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: of a vehicle and then for a second blood begins

434
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 1: to pool. Well, what can we what can we get

435
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: an idea of puling. Well, let's just say somebody has

436
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: been shot or hit inside of a vehicle. They're drug out,

437
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: blood is coming out of their head. If blood has

438
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: to pool in a particular location, guess what has to

439
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: happen day That body has to rest over that area

440
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 1: of where the blood is going to pull for a

441
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: period of time. The person might literally bleed out in

442
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: that area. Then what happens will maybe you wrap the

443
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: body in something and suddenly the blood just disappears and

444
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: it doesn't go anywhere. And then that brings us to

445
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 1: this idea of another vehicle. Do you take the body

446
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: then and place it into a vehicle and suddenly all

447
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: you have left behind are this kind of crisscross of

448
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: tire tracks, And also in this soft area, guess what

449
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 1: else you're going to have. There's potentially you have footprints

450
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: out there as well, And the size of the women's footprints.

451
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: Is there any indication that they ever got out of

452
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: that vehicle and stood erect for any period of time,

453
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: Because you're going to know their shoe sizes, You're going

454
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: to know their foot sizes at their barefoot and what

455
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: types of shoes were anybody involved in this wearing where

456
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: they were wearing work boots, tennis shoes. You know, what

457
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: type of footwear did they have, and what direction did

458
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: they go? Did they lead back to this unusual set

459
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: of tire tracks, and then did the tire tracks kind

460
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: of loop back over themselves and head back out to

461
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: the main road. And you can learn a lot just

462
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: that dynamic environment. You can glean a lot. You just

463
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: have to be equipped to be able to read that

464
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: sign that's left behind. And some people are really really

465
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: good at It's not necessarily my forte, but I've been

466
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: around enough of these people to know I've had enough

467
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: of it kind of splash over onto me and I

468
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: can kind of understand this. And so that's really what

469
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: you're looking at here, because if your absent these bodies,

470
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: the question is where did they go? We know that

471
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: they just didn't disappear and fly away. They have to

472
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: be somewhere, Dave.

473
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 2: And that's one of the things that is coming out now.

474
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,239
Speaker 2: And again, you know, there's a difference between what we know,

475
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: what we are told, and what we find out when

476
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: court records hit. Okay, one of the things that came

477
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: out were some of the things they did find the

478
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: police did not put this information out about blood about

479
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: you said the pools of blood, and the police did

480
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 2: say before we need to say four people had been arrested,

481
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: which is that happened a few days ago as we're

482
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: taping this program. The bodies, just so you know, have

483
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: been found but have not been positively identified. Although at

484
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 2: this point the police, police don't ever come out and

485
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 2: say we found Joe Scott Morgan in the ditch that night,

486
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: you know, they say, well, we found a body that

487
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: looks similar to him, but they're going to have to

488
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: identify him, you know, whatever you guys do. Anyway, it

489
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: was only after after the arrest were made, and they

490
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: kept it quiet. And the reason they did, the reason

491
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 2: they kept a lot of information from the public is

492
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: they were concerned about the safety of the children. Oh yeah,

493
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: police had already investigators already put this whole thing together, Joe.

494
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 2: They knew about the meeting that was supposed to take

495
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 2: place at the the closed gas station, and they know

496
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 2: because the women didn't show up there. And when they

497
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 2: you know, when the women didn't show up at a

498
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: birthday party, there was a Veronica Butler was going to

499
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: take her daughter to a birthday party, and when Veronica

500
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 2: Butler and Jillian Kelly didn't show up with the kids

501
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: at the birthday party, that's when the calls started being made, Hey,

502
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: where are they? They never showed up. Well, the story

503
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 2: that was told by the mother in law, by Tiffany Adams,

504
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: she told police, Oh, yeah, Veronica called me at nine o'clock,

505
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: said she wasn't coming. She canceled visitation. They're like, well,

506
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 2: that makes no sense because at nine o'clock she was

507
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: picking up Jillian Kelly to come to the visitation. So

508
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: immediately they knew what they were dealing with in terms

509
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 2: of the mother in law who had the children. But

510
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 2: there's something else that has come out, Joe. At the

511
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 2: very beginning, we were talking about custody and laws and

512
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 2: how the extended family can sometimes be problematic. In this

513
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: particular case, Tiffany Adams, it's her son rang Rickman and

514
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 2: Veronica Butler are the parents of the grandchildren that Tiffany

515
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: Adams was watching. Well, apparently Tiffany Adams didn't want Veronica

516
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 2: Butler to have her children and she didn't want her

517
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: son to have those children. So the only thing that

518
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: Keiths wrangular Rickman out of the discussion is he was

519
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: accounted for in his court appointed stuff while Tiffany Adams

520
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: had the children. She also had an arreement. Tiffany Adams

521
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 2: had an arrangement that she wanted to approve the court

522
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: liaison that would watch the visitation. She didn't want anybody

523
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 2: else to approve it, and the court allowed that if

524
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 2: she paid for it. Well, the regular person that Tiffany

525
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 2: Adams paid to come to the visitations was a friend

526
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: of hers, and this day Tiffany Callers said, Hey, you

527
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: don't need to come. You take the next couple of

528
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 2: weeks off. That's why Veronica Butler at the last minute

529
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: had to get Jilly and Kelly to come to visit

530
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: for the visitation, which she did. So all of these

531
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: things start stacking up and you realize, well, we know

532
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 2: where the car was found, we know there was blood

533
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 2: found around it, and now we know that Tiffany Adams

534
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: has lied allegedly to police. Well, police kept all of

535
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: this information out of the press until they could get

536
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: their search warrants done, get their investigation done, and keep

537
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: the children safe because no matter what, you still got

538
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: two children here, a nine year old and a six

539
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 2: year old. Or Veronica Butler's two children and they're eight

540
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,719
Speaker 2: and six. I apologize. I am so sorry the children.

541
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 2: Cole is a Kindle is six, and the law enforcement

542
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: needed to make sure they were safe when they made

543
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: the arrest. So last Saturday, Joe, we're getting calls. There's

544
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: a huge SWAT mobile go a caravan of police every

545
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 2: type if it's a vehicle that is in blaze in

546
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 2: with protected and serve, has lights in a gun rack,

547
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 2: has SWAT Team members and everything else. They're coming and

548
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: they're going down these dirt roads all throughout the Oklahoma

549
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: Panhandle and one group stops in Texas County. The other

550
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: group heads to Cimarron County nearby, So these two different locations,

551
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: that's where they pick up. They picked up Tiffany Adams

552
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 2: at her house. They were able to they were loaded

553
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 2: to Boy, they showed up with every gun known to

554
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 2: law enforcement, just in case they didn't know what to expect.

555
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: Didn't know it because they found out that these individuals

556
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 2: that were arrested they're tied to some anti government groups

557
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 2: and the government groups that threaten people. So there was

558
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 2: a lot of fear here knowing that they're going to

559
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 2: arrest these people who for all intents and purposes, has

560
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 2: probably killed two women.

561
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they are in possession of these children, Yes,

562
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: and that just escalates the situation. That just escalates the

563
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: situation even even further relative to what they might find

564
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: when they get there. I think that that's that's what's

565
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: so terrifying. And also at that point they had not

566
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: discovered the bodies of these women, They had no idea

567
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: what had happened to them, and if they suspected that

568
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: these women had in fact been killed, there's also the

569
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: prospect in this is always playing in a mind of

570
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: investigators that they could destroy evidence either evidence of life

571
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: or maybe just maybe if they're still alive, they could

572
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: kill them. Or if there's evidence of what kind of

573
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 1: end that these women had come to, that might be

574
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: eradicated as well. So, you know, for response team like

575
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: this to go out there, they've got all of this

576
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: playing in the back of their mind. And don't think

577
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: for two seconds that the investigators that are in the

578
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: case of investigators are not necessarily the swat team. They're

579
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: not necessarily part of that. Those are two separate jobs,

580
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: the swat personnel these response personnel. They have the investigators

581
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: whispering in their ear the entire time because they know

582
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 1: they've got blooded a scene, right, Yeah, they've got missing women.

583
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: There appears to be some idea that maybe these women

584
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: have been spirited off somewhere and they don't know what

585
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,720
Speaker 1: their status is, and so it's a real delicate balance.

586
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 2: I'd say, all right, So they make the arrest. They

587
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 2: get Tiffany Adams arrested. She's the paternal mother in law

588
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 2: who had custody of the children. They arrested her boyfriend,

589
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 2: Tad call him. He's forty three. But they also arrested

590
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 2: another couple, Cole Twombley and his wife, Cora Twombley. I

591
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 2: believe the Twombleys have horses. You mentioned trailers and trucks

592
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 2: and things like that. I believe they had big horse trailers.

593
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: Just throwing that out there. But now as we are

594
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 2: taping this show, they have positively identified the bodies that

595
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 2: were found the day after the arrests were made. So

596
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: they make the arrest and I'm guessing somebody was sweated

597
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: a little bit, because you know what, for every dad

598
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 2: who has had a daughter, when a long haired idiot

599
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 2: thinks he's going to take her out for a date

600
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 2: and you look him square in the Isa Son, I've

601
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: lived a great life. I got a gun, I got

602
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: a shovel, and I got a lot of land. You

603
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 2: will not be missed. That's what this area is like. Okay, yeah,

604
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 2: you got to have help to find two people who

605
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: cannot help themselves, their dead bodies in the middle of

606
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 2: a vastness that you got to know where they are, Joe.

607
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 2: If you don't know, if somebody doesn't tell you, you're

608
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 2: not finding them.

609
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 1: No, you're not. And you know the old adage. You

610
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: know you mentioned four subjects there very quickly. I don't

611
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: know if you know that you kind of went down

612
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: this roster. What's the old adage about one person can

613
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: keep it secret? And so you talked about sweating. If

614
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: you get individuals into a room and say, look, let

615
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 1: me tell you something. No one else has given information yet.

616
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: This is your come to Jesus moment, at this moment

617
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 1: in tom you better get right and you better tell

618
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: us what the status of these two individuals are that

619
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: we're trying to seek out here. Your life could depend

620
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: upon it. And look out of all the states other

621
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 1: than maybe Texas and Florida that they chose to perpetrate

622
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: something like this. They chose Oklahoma. And let me tell

623
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: you something. I'm not saying they have an express lane

624
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 1: for the death penalty. But you're talking about something that

625
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: if we just begin to talk about an element in

626
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 1: the elements of the crime, we're talking about something that

627
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: has been planned, Dave, and planned goes to premeditation. You

628
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: know our buddy Nancy Grace, what's what does she say about, Oh,

629
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: premeditation can be formed in twinkling of an eye. Just

630
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: took a bit more than a twiddling of an eye,

631
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: and it can be demonstrated in court. If you've got

632
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: four people that have entered in to this confederacy might

633
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: be a confederacy of Duncis, but a confederacy. Nonetheless, they've

634
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,800
Speaker 1: entered into a conspiracy together. Man. That's that's another layer

635
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: to this and entirely and you know, you you bring

636
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: in this this element of the you know, the anti

637
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: government thing and all of that sort of stuff. It's

638
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: not painting a very rosy picture. Now, we do know

639
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: that these two women, these poor women, have been identified.

640
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: Their bodies were obviously recovered. We don't know at this

641
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: point in time what thread had to be pulled in

642
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 1: order to glean that information. There may have been evidence

643
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: at Tiffany the grandmother's house, or maybe it was a

644
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: Twambles house. We don't know, but we know that they

645
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 1: have been found. They've been positively identified. And here is

646
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: one more point about this. The fact that they have

647
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 1: been identified and they were identified so quickly gives us

648
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 1: an idea from a medical legal perspective of what they

649
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: did as far as getting them identified. There's for folks

650
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: that don't know, there's three levels of identification. When you're

651
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: identifying a body. We have a positive identification. People have

652
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: heard that for years and years, and generally that's either

653
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: the baseline for that. It's either through scientific or visual identification,

654
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: like I can scientifically identify you either through dental or

655
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 1: fingerprints or DNA, or we can visually identify, which is

656
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: a bit more less reliable. That means that you know,

657
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: you have somebody visualized the body and see it. I'm

658
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: not a real big fan, as a foreign practitioner of

659
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 1: using government to identify people because those can be swapped

660
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: and there's nightmare stories out there. I think that we'll

661
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: cover one of those that I know in particular someday.

662
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: But then you have presumptive ID. But presumptive ID is

663
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: kind of leaves you twisting in the wind. Out there,

664
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:21,399
Speaker 1: you have somebody maybe that's found. They're unrecognizable, but they

665
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: are in their domicile, locked in from the interior. Their

666
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,280
Speaker 1: body is greatly decomposed, but you presume that it's them

667
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: because they fit the basic dimensions of that person, maybe

668
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: a female or a male approximately in height. They live there,

669
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: the keys are there, the cars there, all that, and

670
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: then you have unidentified We get that a lot with

671
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: skeletal remains. But we do know this. We do know

672
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: that at least the first portion of this mystery has

673
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: been solved. Unfortunately, there's no satisfaction in that for these

674
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: children that have been left behind or for their families,

675
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: God bless them. We offer prayers for those that have

676
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: lost these two wonderful women, and we're going to continue

677
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: to follow this case until the bitter end. I'm Joseph

678
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: Scott Morton and this is body Bags