1 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: Hey, Drilled listeners. For the last several months, I have 2 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: been co hosting the new season of Scene on Radio 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: focused on the climate crisis. This season is called The Repair, 4 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: and we trace the roots of the climate crisis way 5 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: back in history all the way up to current efforts 6 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: to obstruct climate action. Then we look at how the 7 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: climate crisis is playing out in the global South, including 8 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: in Indonesia, Bangladesh, and Nigeria, and how one oil rich country, Scotland, 9 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: is taking specific steps to transition away from fossil fuels. 10 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 1: We end with three episodes that look at what might 11 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: be done about it all. Today, I want to bring 12 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: you the first of those episodes, both as a window 13 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: into the Scene on Radio season and as something of 14 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: a preview for a new show that will be launching 15 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: next year. That show is called Damages, and it will 16 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,839 Speaker 1: follow the two hundred or so climate cases currently playing 17 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: out in courts all over the world. This episode, Pachamama, 18 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: focuses on the Rights of Nature movement, a global push 19 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: to integrate indigenous approaches to nature and justice into Western 20 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: legal systems by effectively giving ecosystems rights. We've talked about 21 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: this in previous episodes on drilled and this is a 22 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: deeper dive. Since this episode was released, the Constitutional Court 23 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: in Ecuador, that country's equivalent to the US Supreme Court, 24 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: has handed down a major ruling in favor of a 25 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: cloud forest LOSSDROS, protecting it from mining. The entirety of 26 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: CeON Radio Season five is out now, and I really 27 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: encourage you to go listen to the whole thing if 28 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: you're new to that show. The three seasons that come 29 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: before this one are also an excellent setup for a 30 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: season about the climate crisis. John Bwin and his two 31 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: previous co hosts, Chendra Kumanika and Celeste Hedley, have done 32 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: just amazing, really really excellent work over there. I was 33 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: a big fan way before I got the chance to 34 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: actually work with them, So go check that out. And 35 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: in the meantime, here is seen on Radio season five, 36 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: episode nine PATCHA Mama. 37 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 2: Amy, are you some kind of tree hugger? 38 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 3: John? 39 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: You say that like it's an accusation. 40 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 4: Well, yes it is, because you know, in a culture 41 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,679 Speaker 4: that has normalized tragic estrangement from the rest of the 42 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 4: natural world, it is, we all know, ridiculous to have 43 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 4: feelings about non human life for its own sake. 44 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I really think the environmental movement has kind of 45 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: overcorrected on this front. So for a really long time, 46 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: it was focused pretty much only on nature to the 47 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: exclusion of humans, which made it really tough to tie 48 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: climate into other social justice issues, and that was a 49 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: big problem. But now I feel like even the climate 50 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: movement has swung the other way, partly as a reaction 51 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: to this sort of tree hugger criticism from the right. 52 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: And I don't think that's great either. I think, you know, 53 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: we should and could fight for both because we're all connected. 54 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: So yeah, I actually live in a forest and I 55 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: don't go hug the trees in it, but I do 56 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: love a good primal forest scream. 57 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: Ah. I'd like to witness that. 58 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: And actually, I think that reinforcing our connection to the 59 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: of the natural world is not just not bad, it's 60 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: actually pretty critical to human well being. I asked indigenous 61 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: activist and attorney Tara Hauska about this recently, and I 62 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: really loved her answer, So I'm going to play it 63 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: for you here. 64 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 5: I think the climate movement does itself a huge disservice 65 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 5: by even trying to condition themselves or allow their conditioning 66 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 5: to continue. That we are somehow separate from nature, that 67 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 5: nature can be summed up in statistical data and analysis, 68 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 5: and that we are hard nosed, you know, here's the solutions, right, 69 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 5: And then you look at the little pieces like land 70 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 5: defenders that are all over the globe. These are people 71 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 5: that are in direct community with nature, that are not 72 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 5: necessarily speaking the language of you know, the statistical, cold, 73 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 5: hard one point five degrees or whatever, right, because it's 74 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 5: all around us and we are still in community with relatives, 75 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 5: you know, Like it's a completely different understanding of nature. 76 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 5: It's not a place to visit. It's a place that's 77 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 5: all around you all the time, including with yourself. Your 78 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 5: body is made of the earth, right, Like that's understood. 79 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: So, John, how about you any tree hugging in your life? 80 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I've hugged a few trees in my time. 81 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: Usually it's more of a kind of laying on of hands, 82 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 2: hands on bark, and sort of a greeting, Hey there, oak, 83 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: what's up beach? Hello, miss sycamore. I do have a 84 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: low key thing going with trees and moss and the 85 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 2: wind and water running over rocks. Should I cue that 86 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: sound here? By the way, Yeah, these feelings have gotten 87 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: more intense during the pandemic. Those walks in the woods 88 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: have been a lifesaver, you know, And who knows, ecological 89 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 2: grief and dread may play a part too in my 90 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 2: feelings about being in the woods these days. There are 91 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 2: certainly people more outdoorsy than me, and my credentials as 92 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 2: an environmental activist are limited at best. You know, though, 93 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 2: as long as I've been a voter, green policies have 94 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 2: figured in how I vote. Not that the two party 95 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: system in the US typically gives us extremely green options, right. 96 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: It's usually a choice between the party that wants to 97 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: enforce some modest environmental protections well pretty much letting industry 98 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: do whatever they want in the environment, versus the other 99 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: one that wants to completely turn loose the drillers, polluters, miners, foresters, 100 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: and other exploiters of natural resources. But we need to 101 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: get past the idea that only people who identify as 102 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: full fledged environmentalists care about the health of the planet 103 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: and natural systems, especially when it comes to the climate emergency. 104 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: This came up in a stark way here in the 105 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: fall of twenty twenty one, when Joe Manchin, the US Senator, 106 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 2: and Cole Barron killed the strongest climate provision in the 107 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: Democrats Build Back Better Bill, which we talked about in 108 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 2: our bonus episode. Politico in its DC newsletter, highlighted this 109 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: development with the headline winner mansion, loser environmentalists. 110 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: It was so annoying and it had people screaming. Rightly, so, 111 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: when we make our planet unlivable thanks to people like 112 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: Joe Manchin, it's not just environmentalists that lose, it's everybody 113 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: that mentality that only this special interest group, the tree 114 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: huggers or the green people, has a stake in saving 115 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: the planet. It's so damaging and really shows an ongoing 116 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: failure to understand what's really at stake here. The NASA 117 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: climate scientist Peter Kalmus likes to say we need a 118 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: billion climate activists or billions. 119 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: Getting back to the cultural point and that estrangement from 120 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: our non human relatives. We started this season by looking 121 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: at the evolution of Judeo Christian thinking on nature. We 122 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: were trying to understand the roots of Europe's and ultimately 123 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 2: America's role in driving us to the edge of ecosystem collapse. 124 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: But we also heard from David Pacusa on Hope Nation 125 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: and the scholar Enrique Salmon about indigenous approaches, how the 126 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 2: many peoples who were on this continent long before the 127 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: colonizers arrived, how they view nature and humanity's place in it. 128 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 2: In this episode, we're going to try to bring those 129 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: two seemingly incompatible conceptions together in a way. 130 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, in a way. There's this legal concept called rights 131 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: of nature, and it's made its way into some country 132 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: the constitutions and legal systems. In the US, it's part 133 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: of some tribal treaties, and a growing number of people 134 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: are trying to bring it into the rest of the 135 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: legal system too. I've been kind of low key obsessed 136 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 1: with rights of nature for a while, and I've come 137 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: to think of it as basically a way to integrate 138 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: indigenous views of nature and justice into a Western legal system. 139 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: Which sounds hard, yeah, but a worthy thing to attempt. 140 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 2: When you say rights of nature, Amy, what does that 141 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: mean exactly? Ecosystems have rights. 142 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: In a nutshell? Yeah, And you know, the first time 143 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: I heard about this, I have to admit that I 144 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: had kind of the same reaction that some conservative commentators 145 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: have had, like, Okay, so the trees have rights sounds 146 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: a little too hippy. Dippy and woo woo to actually 147 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:57,599 Speaker 1: work in a courtroom. 148 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 2: Amy, I'm surprised to hear you say that. I know, 149 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: I mean, it does sound radical at first, blush, but 150 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 2: certainly no more so than oh, I don't know, giving 151 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: a corporation all the rights of an individual. 152 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, that's a perfect comparison, because we do give 153 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: corporations almost more rights than individuals at this point. But still, 154 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,479 Speaker 1: it really is kind of difficult to integrate these ideas 155 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,959 Speaker 1: with the Western judicial system. I mean, you're talking about 156 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: meshing to very different approaches to nature and justice in 157 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: one body of laws, So all those philosophical and religious 158 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: ideas that we talked about early on in this season 159 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: would end up underpinning laws. And in the US that 160 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: means pretty rigid ideas about nature as property. How do 161 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: you reconcile that with the idea of nature as a 162 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: living entity with rights. 163 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 2: And even in other countries like Ecuador or New Zealand, 164 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 2: which we're going to be talking about here, you're dealing 165 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 2: with either a Roman legal system or British common law, 166 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: both from colonizer cultures with a whole lot of domination 167 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: and ownership baked into their ideas about nature and therefore 168 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: their laws around natural resources. 169 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Yeah, So that's the big challenge that 170 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 1: some folks have taken on with varying degrees of success. 171 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: It's one approach to repairing humanity's relationship with nature and 172 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: how that relationship is governed. 173 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 2: From the Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University. This 174 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 2: is senon Radio Season five, The Repair, Episode nine. 175 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: I'm John Bewin, I'm Amy Westervelt. 176 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 2: This time we start turning our attention more directly to 177 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 2: the transformations that we might make to save ourselves from 178 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 2: ecological collapse, changes in policy, culture, and in this case, 179 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 2: in the law. Amy, take it away and we'll talk 180 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: some more later. 181 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 6: Yuganti dupui dupuiki in Malaya kay Abata. 182 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 7: We must take care of our planet Earth, to stop 183 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 7: polluting it. With each passing day, we must continue teaching 184 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 7: this to our children and our youth for a better future, 185 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 7: because nowadays virtually nobody cares for nature. Trash is thrown everywhere, 186 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 7: rivers are contaminated. That's how it is. 187 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: That's Anita speaking in Ecuador. She is an eighteen year 188 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: old Quichua from the Highland region of Rio Bamba. Like 189 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: so many others, she has migrated from the countryside to Quito, 190 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: Ecuador's capital city, in search of a better life. She 191 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: works in a beloved neighborhood hole in the wall that 192 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: sells fresh fruits and veggies, snacks, and home cleaning supplies. 193 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: Anita holds dear the mothership that sustains us all Pachamama, nature, 194 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: Mother Earth. In two thousand and eight, Ecuador became the 195 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: first country in the world to write rights of nature 196 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: into its constitution. Rafael Coorea was president, and he had 197 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: won election largely on a wave of support from indigenous communities, 198 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: thanks in part to his pledge to enshrine their sovereignty 199 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: into the constitution. The Derechos de la Natrelezza were part 200 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: of that Framed around an indigenous Quichua concept harmonious living 201 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: with oneself, your community, and the natural world, the country 202 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: sought to prioritize nature over the sanctity of private property. 203 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: The constitutional amendment says nature or pachamama, where life is 204 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: reproduced and exists, has the right to exist, persist, maintain 205 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:11,599 Speaker 1: and regenerate its vital cycles, structure, functions, and its processes. 206 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 8: In evolution, personalmente yobenko du narealida in don de siasumia quelenatur. 207 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: This is Alberto Acasta. He's mixed white and indigenous, and 208 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: he's an economist and the former Minister of Energy and 209 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: Mining for Ecuador, and he chaired the constitutional committee that 210 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: wrote that Rights of Nature amendment into the constitution in 211 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight. He's talking here about what shifted 212 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: his thinking about nature from believing that it was a 213 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: subordinate object, a resource to be used for development or 214 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: the economy, that it was an object that must be 215 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: controlled by human beings. 216 00:14:54,960 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 8: Then, yes, dominantdotal. 217 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: He does this thing that we all wish was so rare. 218 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: He evolves, time passes, he takes in new information and 219 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: revises his view. He says, he comes to realize that 220 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: his view of the world, a view that is still 221 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: the dominant view in much of the world, was completely wrong, 222 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: and he goes on to help write a totally different 223 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: view of things into Ecuador's constitution. Of course, the constitutional 224 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: amendment didn't immediately change the court system. When new laws 225 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: or policies are passed, they need to be tested, generally 226 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: with lawsuits. Ecuador's new Rights of Nature amendment was tested 227 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: by all sorts of claims, big and small. First, there 228 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: was this road that was being widened in the south, 229 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: who was dumping all kinds of dirt and rocks into 230 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: the Rio Vilcabamba. Two foreign activist who happened to live 231 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: nearby filed a case on behalf of the river in 232 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, and a judge ruled in favor 233 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: of nature. In twenty ten, they required the company building 234 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: the road to submit to the court a remediation plan, 235 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: environmental impact report and all the required environmental permits before 236 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: it could continue. Score one for nature. Also in twenty ten, 237 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: a much bigger challenge really testing the power and jurisdiction 238 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: of this new law. 239 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 3: Environmentalist organizations from five countries file a complaint on November 240 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 3: twenty six against British PETROLEUMVP for the spill of over 241 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 3: five million oar burrows and the environmental damage linked to 242 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 3: that spill in the Gulf of Mexico. The complaint was 243 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 3: filed before an Ecuador's court because this is the only 244 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 3: country that recognizes nature as a subject and protects its 245 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 3: rights in its constitution. 246 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: The activist vandan Ashiva, with a handful of other acts 247 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: filed suit against BP in Ecuador over the Deep Water 248 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: Horizon spill and its impact on Pachamama So a spill 249 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: that had happened in another country in the Gulf of 250 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: Mexico off the coast of the United States. But that 251 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: case was brought in Ecuador. After all, if your mandate 252 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: is to protect the rights of Mother Earth, well that 253 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: justice knows no borders. The court eventually throughout that case 254 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: for lack of jurisdiction. Various other cases have tested the 255 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: limits and protections of Ecuador's Rights of Nature Amendment. It 256 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: has not quite been the silver bullet that some may 257 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: have hoped. Oil drilling, mining, and other extractive industries are 258 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: still going strong in Ecuador. Here's a spoof ad that 259 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: one environmental group put out in twenty twenty to protest 260 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: the number of mining permits given out in the country's forests. 261 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 9: Are you looking for a country with naively low mining 262 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 9: regulations zeo retta and a responsibly low taxes, Look no further, 263 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 9: introducing a fabulous, once in a lifetime opportunity to open 264 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 9: your very own mind in the most biodibarose country on 265 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 9: the planet. And there is literally nowhere you can't mind. 266 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 9: In habitat lands not a problem. Our complementary army is 267 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 9: at your service day and night, forty thousand troops on 268 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 9: hand to deal with any combat situation. Wildlife forget about it. 269 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: Today, Ecuador's Constitutional Court that's their equivalent to the Supreme 270 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: Court in the US, is deliberating a rights of nature 271 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: case on exactly this. If it rules in favor of 272 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 1: the cloud forest of Los Sabros, that could set a 273 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,479 Speaker 1: new precedent providing legal protection for the country's six million 274 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: acres of protected forests. That term cloud forest describes a 275 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: type of rainforest that grows at high altitudes. The tree 276 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: canopy is really dense and they're almost always shrouded and missed. 277 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: That's where they get their cool name. 278 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 10: In Mister Vos Cambia riverso Moto, capender Cento, kees Alum, Muipoco, 279 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 10: lokemos in the Stirao, Lokemos, Papandido. 280 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 11: In this very biodiverse place, there's so much to learn. 281 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 11: I believe that what we've learned to date has been 282 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 11: so little. There's a huge diversity out there and that 283 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 11: should be investigated. In this wonderful forest called Los Cross. 284 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: Nature guide Martin Obando has lived and worked in the 285 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: Losedros Natural Reserve since nineteen ninety four. His home there 286 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: is roughly forty miles north of Quito, in a forest 287 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: that sprawls over more than seventeen thousand acres. Founded in 288 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight with land purchased by foreign investors, including 289 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: the Australian Rainforest Information Center, this lush greenland is at 290 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: the center of the most high profile right of nature 291 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: case in the world right now. 292 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 10: In Lactodidad the Namo Sona for part of de Las Miners. 293 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 11: We face a very strong threat posed by transnational mining companies. 294 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 11: They have obtained licenses to explore this protected area. 295 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 1: Those companies are the defendants in this case before Ecuador's 296 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: highest court. They include a Canadian mining firm that secured 297 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: a gold exploration permit in Los Aydros in conjunction with 298 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: Ecuador's state owned mining company, and two subsidiaries of Australia's 299 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,959 Speaker 1: sole gold corporation. If the court rules in their favor, 300 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: mining could take place in at least sixty eight percent 301 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: of the Losedros Nature Reserve. The case has received international attention, 302 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: with scientists all over the world agreeing that this place 303 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 1: needs to be protected. Even Jane Goodall has expressed support, 304 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: but that attention is another challenge aspect of enforcing rights 305 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: of nature in Ecuador. You might have noticed that both 306 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: the cases I've mentioned before were filed by non Ecuadorians. 307 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: The Los Alros case is also spearheaded by outsiders. An 308 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: Australian nonprofit runs the reserve, and lots of the lawyers 309 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: and activists involved in the case are not Equadorian. The 310 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: coalition working to protect Less Thros has reached out to 311 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: local indigenous groups and many support the effort, but they 312 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: and non indigenous Ecuadorians are not leading this fight. This 313 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: trend has become another test for rights of nature in Ecuador. 314 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: When you have the world's strongest law protecting nature, how 315 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: do you avoid becoming the world's testing ground for a 316 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: legal theory. Economist Alberto Acosta isn't too concerned about that. 317 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 1: During the Loslros case, he says, scientists from all over 318 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: the world testify to defend the spider monkeys, the plants, 319 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: the water, and it was great, magnificent. Even he's more 320 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: concerned with a different Problemjunta SMOs. We continue to defend 321 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: isolated situations. He says. This wonderful protected forest of Los Dedros. 322 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: But why not all the woods? Why not all the 323 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: woods and all the moors? Why not all the water 324 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: sources already? Yeah, for a costa. Protecting entire ecosystems would 325 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: be more in keeping with the original intention of rights 326 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: of nature, not just one case at a time. But 327 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: there's that problem of shoehorning this very different view of 328 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: nature into a Western court system. The courts in Ecuador, 329 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: like those in the US, work case by case. It's 330 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: hard to say, forget specifics, let's litigate how we treat 331 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: forests in general. This episode is supported by Degrees Real 332 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: Talk about Planet Saving Careers, an original podcast from the 333 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: Environmental Defense Fund. People ask me all the time what 334 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: they can do about climate change, and I feel a 335 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: little bit like a climate change guidance counselor sometimes the 336 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: short answer is what do you get at? What are 337 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: you interested in? Where can you plug in? What I 338 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: like about Degrees is that it helps people figure out 339 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: how they could maybe use their job to make an impact. 340 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: Degrees features candid conversations and takeaways from today's most inspiring 341 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: client change makers. Each episode tells a story of how 342 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: one inspiring change maker found their climate career and how 343 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: you can too. There's a new season out now, season three, 344 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: and it's all about how, no matter the industry, you 345 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,479 Speaker 1: can find a planet saving job. I got a sneak 346 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: preview of season three of Degrees and I loved it, 347 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 1: especially the episode about Lake Street Drive, which is a 348 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: green band, which is actually a lot harder to pull 349 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: off than you might think, just in terms of all 350 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: of the disposable things that come along with touring and 351 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: concerts and music venues. Trying to convince venues to reduce 352 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: their waste, all of that stuff travel, How do you 353 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: figure that out? It was really good and there's lots 354 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: more where that came from, too. These narrative stories will 355 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: capture your attention and inspire you while giving you practical 356 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: tips on how to get a climate focused career. Search 357 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: for Degrees real talk about planet safe careers anywhere you 358 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts will include a link in the show notes. 359 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 1: Too Big thanks to Degrees for their support. 360 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 12: One of the key witnesses for me, he described it 361 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 12: in our language is tutor. It is my mother and 362 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 12: my father. It's where I grew up, It's where I 363 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 12: go to pray. It's where I go to partake of 364 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 12: food that nourishes me and my future generations. So for 365 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 12: you to suggest that you can own my mother and 366 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 12: my father as completely empathetical to our ideology or our 367 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 12: relationships to that environment. 368 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,719 Speaker 1: This is an atsakes A roto Rura activist and lawyer 369 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: in New Zealand. She advocates for the rates of Maui 370 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: tribes to govern themselves. She's talking here about Teudewa and 371 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: absolutely doneing ancient forest and river and mountain region that 372 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: once comprised a national park in New Zealand, but is 373 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: also the homeland of the indigenous tribe there. Now this 374 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: area is a legal entity. The tay Uduweta approach solved 375 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: the problem that Acosta mentioned, our inability to fit nature 376 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: into a human legal system focused on individuals. Instead, in 377 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: New Zealand, they created a separate set of legal rights 378 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: and processes for an ecosystem. Taya also illustrates how rates 379 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: of nature dovetails with the indigenous land back movement, a 380 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: climate solution many activists are also beginning to call for. 381 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: Of course, what happened in tay Udeweta wasn't perfect either. 382 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 12: The case wasn't an easy case, I mean not for 383 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 12: fifteen years. Colonization never goes away, so we were deeply colonized. 384 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 12: So even in the modern settlement process of three D claims. 385 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 12: So I'd love to say that once we did the case, 386 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 12: colonization got put on that plane back to the United Kingdom. 387 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:09,719 Speaker 12: It didn't. 388 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: After a long fight that started in the late nineteen nineties, 389 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: the tou Huei Ewe, a Maori tribe from the northeast 390 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: region of what's now called New Zealand, and the New 391 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: Zealand government granted legal personhood to the tou Huei homeland 392 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 1: tey Urewera. That happened in twenty fourteen. They created a 393 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: board responsible for making decisions in the best interest of 394 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: tey Urewera. Tou Huei as children of Teuduweta give expression 395 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: to her through the board, but representatives of the Crown 396 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: the New Zealand government are also on that board. Indigenous 397 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: elders have been protesting their presence. 398 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 12: You see very evident if it's by the crown to 399 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 12: maintain levers of power. And one of the leavers, of 400 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 12: of course, is a board with the Crown appoints people 401 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 12: to sit with other people and has the final say 402 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 12: of who should be though the whole board, and naturally, 403 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 12: people who live with the space feel that they have 404 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 12: a closer connection and obligation that should be recognized in 405 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 12: the decision making authority that eventually emerges from it. So 406 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 12: they are opposing the top down approach and calling for 407 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 12: much more accountability to the board. That's one problem. They 408 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 12: see the accumulation of wealth as antithetical again to what 409 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 12: they want for the conservation and ecological survival of their 410 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 12: way of life. 411 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: A lot of people who watch this stuff internationally saw 412 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: what happened with TWERA as a major breakthrough for environmental law, 413 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: but psych says the Marie Elders, see it as just 414 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: a stepping stone to router transformation. Even the idea that 415 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: humans have the power to give or deny nature rights 416 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: is pretty off putting to them. 417 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 12: She would never exploit me, and I should never exploit 418 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 12: to She feeds me, she nurtures me, he essences me. 419 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 12: I'm born from her waters and I go back to her. 420 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 12: So how could I see her as a corporation? Sorry, 421 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 12: That's why I struggle that she's even been identified as 422 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 12: a equivalent in human terms. You know, it's the legal 423 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 12: personality pattern. 424 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: The other issue with pleasing nature into the colonizer's court 425 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: system the time scale. Western legal systems in general don't 426 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: understand or make room for the sort of generational thinking 427 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: that's really required to protect nature. 428 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 12: You know, it's not a statute of limitations within sixteens 429 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 12: or twelve years. A statute of obligation is to the 430 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 12: next generation at a minut in them, if not till 431 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 12: seven generations, because you have to be able to think 432 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 12: beyond the thirty years. So you know, that's the conflict. 433 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 12: I don't know how we're going to resolve it, but 434 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 12: i'd love to see. Can I say it's a climate 435 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 12: change is also a trigger in our country. It really 436 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 12: is changing behaviors, and we have to we can't be complacent. 437 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 12: And I think that's also one of the wonderful things 438 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 12: about the act itself. There is the ability, you know, 439 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 12: so I'm not all doerm and gloom about it. There's 440 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 12: the ability for strategic thinking to ensure that our obligations 441 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 12: to the world climate change measures can be influenced by 442 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 12: this big an exemplar of what we can do as 443 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 12: a nation. 444 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: In the US and in any Western countries rates of 445 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: nature approaches like those in New Zealand and Ecuador, of course, 446 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: but right up against an issue we talked about in 447 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: one of our early episodes, property law. In twenty nineteen, 448 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: voters in Toledo, Ohio passed the Lake Erie Bill of 449 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: Rights libor. It was designed to protect that great lake 450 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: from pollution, and the citizens of Toledo approved it via 451 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: ballot initiative during a special election. But pro property rights 452 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: people and especially the fossil fuel industry lost their damn minds. 453 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 13: A lawsuit has been filed against the Lake Erie Bill 454 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 13: of Rights, not even a day after it passed. 455 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 4: Farming Wood County filed it in federal court this morning 456 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 4: in Toledo. 457 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 14: And while this is one very brave farmer taking action, 458 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 14: how this ultimately is decided, we'll have implications for farmers, 459 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 14: not just in Ohio, but across the nation. 460 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 13: They can't extra territorially start dictating to the rest of 461 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 13: the Lake Erie basin, which includes it's not only much 462 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 13: of Ohio, but parts of four other states in Canada. 463 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 14: You know, this is aspirational hippie language. 464 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 10: Let's fix the earth without saying how. 465 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 15: But according to the environmentalists, we haven't moved fast enough 466 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 15: for them. 467 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: Apparently, in two years we should solve all the Lake's problems. 468 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: Lake Erie now has Rights National Review. The radicals who 469 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: are leading this agenda wish to thwart capitalism and human thriving, 470 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: found out that BP was basically the sole funder of 471 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: the campaign. Again, this is from the documentary Invisible Hand 472 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: about the Toledo fight and some other similar fights elsewhere 473 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: in the country. A year after citizens past the initiative, 474 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: a federal judge in Ohio ruled that it violated the Constitution. 475 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 16: And just recently, you know, the city is negotiating whether 476 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 16: or not to pay out two hundred thousand dollars in 477 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 16: attorney costs. 478 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: Josh Purbannik co directed the documentary. 479 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 16: And basically for this you know bill that they passed 480 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 16: that they had to argue in front of the court 481 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 16: and the prosecutions asking for payment of two hundred thousand dollars. 482 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 16: So they're negotiating. 483 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't just that this rights of nature bill had 484 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: passed in the United States that really set off the industry. 485 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: It was that it was in Toledo, Ohio, not Brooklyn, 486 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: New York, not San Francisco. California in the Rust Belt. 487 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: The film Invisible Hand also follows another American community's fight 488 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: for rights of nature, again not in a coastal elite city, 489 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: but in Grant Township, a tiny, tiny town in Pennsylvania. 490 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: But in the case of Grant Township, residents used an 491 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: approach that can potentially work with America's weird approach to 492 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: property rights. It's called home rule. In a nutshell, it 493 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: gives the people who live in any town the right 494 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: to wrestle control over permitting decisions back from the state. 495 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: And that's a big deal if you live in Pennsylvania 496 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: and you're worried that your lawmakers are in the pocket 497 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: of an industry that wants to dump its radioactive waste 498 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: in your backyard. I asked Colin Jero Mack, the NYU 499 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: environmental sociologist we heard from earlier this season about this, 500 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: because the case also surfaced in the research for his 501 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: book about fracking in Pennsylvania, Up to Heaven and Down 502 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:24,839 Speaker 1: to Hell. 503 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 15: Pennsylvania, Colorado, and Texas are home rule states, which means 504 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,280 Speaker 15: that municipalities can create their own constitution and can create 505 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 15: their own laws, and there are some municipalities that have 506 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 15: exerted home rule and are going to court and they're winning. 507 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 15: But home rule is something you have to opt into, 508 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 15: and so I think, you know, getting municipalities interested to 509 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 15: create their own home rule charters. I don't know that 510 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 15: it would lead to a huge blossoming in absolute bands. 511 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 15: I think in some places it would lead to a ban. 512 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: What jero Mac is referring to. There is a sort 513 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 1: of movement in towns and counties across the US to 514 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: ban fracking or to ban gas in new buildings. Obviously, 515 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: this is not something that the fossil fuel industry likes, 516 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: but also it's something that conservatives have fought against, really 517 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: just because it seems like government intervening and telling them 518 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: what to do. 519 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 15: But what I've been really struck by is even a 520 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 15: lot of very conservative communities all the want greater regulations 521 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 15: than what the state is giving them. And so I 522 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 15: do think that that could be an important part. It 523 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 15: wouldn't solve the whole problem, but it would solve immediate 524 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 15: visceral problems to people, you know, like for instance, not 525 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 15: allowing fracking in residential areas or near residential areas. That 526 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 15: would be great for a lot of people that deal 527 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 15: you know, frontline communities, fence line communities that deal with 528 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 15: those consequences. And I think it's a way that could 529 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 15: get rural conservative folks on board with environmental regulation, people 530 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 15: who tend to be pretty skeptical or cynical of federal, 531 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 15: let alone state regulations. 532 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: It's still a pretty far cry from rights of nature, 533 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: particularly including rights of nature in the US Constitution, but 534 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: it might be a step in that direction. And filmmaker 535 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: Josh Purvanic points out that towns can opt to include 536 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: rights of nature in their home rule charters. That's this 537 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 1: local constitution that they draft when they decide to embrace 538 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: home rule. Grant Township in Pennsylvania did just that. The 539 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: town was fighting the state's decision to allow fracking companies 540 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: to dump radioactive waste underground. 541 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 14: There. 542 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,919 Speaker 1: They're still fighting for home rule to stick in late 543 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, that case continues. In the meantime, John 544 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: Indigenous rights of nature cases are happening in the US too. 545 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: In Minnesota, the wide earth Band of a Jibwe are 546 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 1: fighting to protect the rights of wild rice monomen against 547 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,760 Speaker 1: the damage the Line three pipeline may cause. 548 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,439 Speaker 2: Yes, Line three is that pipeline that a company called 549 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 2: n Bridge Energy is building across northern Minnesota, replacing an 550 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 2: old line that carried tar sands oil, about as dirty 551 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 2: a kind of oil as there is from Canada to 552 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 2: Lake Superior. Ojibway and other indigenous people have led protests 553 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 2: against it. People have filed several lawsuits to stop it, 554 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 2: including this one that you mentioned, Amy on behalf of 555 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 2: Wild Rice. 556 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: That's right. In twenty eighteen, Wide Earth and the eighteen 557 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: fifty five Treaty Authority, an organization that upholds treaty rights 558 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: for Ojibwe bands, enacted legal personhood for Wild Rice. It 559 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: declared that within Wide Earth and other seated Ojibweight territories, 560 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: Manomen has inherent rights to exist, flourish, regenerate, and evolve, 561 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: as well as inherent rights to restoration, recovery, and preservation. 562 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 2: In August twenty twenty one, White Earth invoked the rights 563 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 2: of Manomen in a lawsuit against the Minnesota Department of 564 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 2: Natural Resources the DNR, filed in tribal court. The Ojibwe 565 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 2: wants to stop construction of n Bridge Energies Line three pipeline. 566 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 2: The DNR claims the tribal court has no jurisdiction over 567 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 2: the project. Construction of the pipeline has since been completed, 568 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 2: but the case is still alive, so Manomen still might 569 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 2: get its day in court. 570 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: That's right, And if the tribal court rules against the DNR, 571 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: and if that ruling actually holds, that could be a 572 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: huge deal in other pipeline fights, many of which are 573 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: happening on indigenous lands and would impact water and land 574 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: and lots of other ecosystems in the same way that 575 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,760 Speaker 1: this one does. This reminds me of how Annet Sykes 576 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: in New Zealand really connects rights of nature to the 577 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: broader indigenous sovereignty and land back movements, Like she talks 578 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: about this tae Udaweeda when that all these advocates all 579 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: over the world point to as a huge success as 580 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 1: really more of a step on the pathway to sovereignty 581 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: and just giving land back to indigenous people. 582 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 2: So the pathway to giving the land back to the 583 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 2: tribe and butting out. 584 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: In other words, yeah, that's right, and you can see 585 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: how that would make sense for the Lakota at Standing 586 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: Rock and the Ajibwean Minnesota too, because you know, again 587 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: it is hard to just mash these two very different 588 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: justice systems together and do we really need to force 589 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: the indigenous system into the colonizer court system or can 590 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: we just give them real sovereignty. 591 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 2: But there's another way people are trying to tackle this 592 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 2: right in Guyana, Brazil, Australia and some other places. 593 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,319 Speaker 1: That's right. So way back in nineteen seventy two, at 594 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 1: the very first international Summit on the Environment in Stockholm, 595 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,800 Speaker 1: advocates talked about environmental rights and instead of talking about 596 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: them as rights of nature, they talked about a human 597 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: right to a healthy environment. That idea didn't really go 598 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: anywhere for a while, but in nineteen ninety four Costa 599 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,839 Speaker 1: Rica wrote it into its constitution and today there are 600 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,879 Speaker 1: one hundred and ten countries that guarantee humans the right 601 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: to a healthy environment in their constitution, and in quite 602 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 1: a few of those countries, lawyers are starting to use 603 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 1: those amendments to try to legally force governments to stop 604 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,760 Speaker 1: permitting fossil fuel extraction. 605 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 2: That is fascinating, and given that it's kind of a 606 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 2: novel idea to me, let me guess the US is 607 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,399 Speaker 2: not one of those countries that has done this. 608 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, Sadly the US is as behind on this as 609 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,760 Speaker 1: it is on human rights in general. But the United 610 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: Nations Rights Council just in October twenty twenty one declared 611 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: access to a healthy environment a human right. So that's 612 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:23,399 Speaker 1: a pretty big deal. 613 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,760 Speaker 2: And you've been following a case in Guyana, right, another 614 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 2: country in northern South America where a constitutional right to 615 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 2: a healthy environment has come into play. 616 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: That's right, it's super interesting. So Exon Mobil is starting 617 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 1: a massive offshore deep water drilling project off the coast 618 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:48,399 Speaker 1: of Guyana, and as lawyer Melinda Jankie, who's Guyanese, she's 619 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: filed a suit against the Guyanese government claiming basically that 620 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 1: if it lets this project go forward, it'll violate her 621 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 1: client's rights to a healthy environment. The plaintiffs are a 622 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 1: professor and a young cl I'm an activist And initially 623 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: Exon tried to say that this lawyer was misinterpreting the Amendment, 624 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: but that didn't fly because she happens to have written 625 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 1: that amendment. 626 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:20,399 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, wow, that's amazing. So litigation it's one 627 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 2: possible tool that people can use and are trying to 628 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 2: use to repair some of the damage and to change 629 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 2: how we live in nature and with nature going forward. Thanks, 630 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 2: So much Ammie Westerell. 631 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,959 Speaker 1: Next Time credits, YadA, YadA. 632 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,799 Speaker 2: Next Time. The first of two concluding episodes where we 633 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 2: go straight at the question at the heart of our series, 634 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 2: what to do, how to stop the wreckage and begin 635 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 2: the repair, starting with the actions the policies we need 636 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 2: to push for now to save the planet and our 637 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 2: collective future. Our script editor for season five is Cheryl 638 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 2: Devall in Ecuador. Interviews and translations by Polyglott Barbershop audio 639 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 2: engineering assistance by Jonathan Pinto and voiceovers by Cassandra Cola 640 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 2: and Miles Bullock. Street music by Gustavo Fajardo. Additional reporting 641 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 2: in New Zealand from Lyndall Rowland. Other music in this 642 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 2: episode by Lily Hayden, Kim Carroll, Chris Westlake, Leslie Barber, 643 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 2: Cora Miron and Fabian Almazon. Music consulting by Joe Augustine 644 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 2: of Narrative Music. We post transcripts on our website seen 645 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,879 Speaker 2: on radio dot Org. The show is distributed by our 646 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 2: friends at PRX and comes to you from the Center 647 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 2: for Documentary Studies at Duke University.