Speaker 1: What's that at my bed? It's spooky and joy I'm
Speaker 1: really sure it's dead. It's coming this way.
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, Hey, I ghosted.
Speaker 1: Tyros Dress. Hey boo, it's me Roz.
Speaker 3: You know, next month or next week is Pride month,
Speaker 3: and of course it's always Pride month.
Speaker 1: Here A ghosted.
Speaker 3: But I thought it'd be fun just to just to
Speaker 3: get a little head start by talking to a queer historian,
Speaker 3: paranormal researcher, paranormal investigator, an author named Ken Summers. Ken
Speaker 3: Summers wrote a book called Queer Hauntings True Tale of
Speaker 3: Gay and Lesbian Ghosts, And I asked Ken about the
Speaker 3: whole the whole spectrum of you know, LGBTQ ghosts and
Speaker 3: and the relationship to queerness and the paranormals. So we
Speaker 3: have a cool conversation about that that you will hear today.
Speaker 3: I also it was a it was a quite quite
Speaker 3: the conversation. We got into a lot of stuff, so
Speaker 3: I did have to cut out a chunk through it.
Speaker 3: On Patreon, Patreon dot com slash Ross Dress vilas link
Speaker 3: in the description, where you could also find a weekly
Speaker 3: podcast episode that I am putting up this week as well.
Speaker 3: And I'm so excited for next week. You guys, there's
Speaker 3: gonna be some changes. People on my Patreon I have
Speaker 3: already heard about these changes, but uh, for everyone else,
Speaker 3: this it's gonna be.
Speaker 1: It's to be.
Speaker 3: It's gonna be a different week next week. Here I'm
Speaker 3: ghosted and I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 1: And so don't you worry.
Speaker 3: I will still be talking about the paranormal every week,
Speaker 3: and I am going to change a few things about
Speaker 3: the podcast, just like some different kinds of episodes will
Speaker 3: be popping up more next week.
Speaker 1: I can't even.
Speaker 3: Believe this, but I am going to be joined by
Speaker 3: truly one of my favorite comedians. I just recorded the
Speaker 3: episode and we had so much fun. I'm going to
Speaker 3: be joined by two people, Patton Oswalt and his wife,
Speaker 3: actress Meredith Salenger. I can't wait for you to hear it.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Oh my god, my god, my god.
Speaker 3: So we'll get into that next week. I'll tell you
Speaker 3: more about some of the changes I have planned going
Speaker 3: on with the pod cast. It's all fun, exciting stuff,
Speaker 3: don't you worry. And anyway, I say, we just get
Speaker 3: into this conversation about queer hauntings with Ken Summers on
Speaker 3: with the show, you guys, I am joined by a
Speaker 3: queer historian, a paranormal researcher, an investigator who specializes in
Speaker 3: LGBTQ ghosts. Ladies, gentlemen, everybody, please welcome Ken Summers.
Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, and thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Thank you for doing this.
Speaker 3: I'm so excited to talk about gay ghos. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's Pride Month, It's it's something that I always want
Speaker 3: to talk about on the show. I just don't know
Speaker 3: of that many LGBTQ ghosts, so it sounds like you're
Speaker 3: the person to talk to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are surprisingly quite a few. They're very difficult
Speaker 2: to find, as you can probably imagine. But actually that's
Speaker 2: what started me on this quest many many years ago,
Speaker 2: just doing local investigations in Ohio where I am and
Speaker 2: sort of living two lives in a way, being like
Speaker 2: being a gay man in one respect and then being
Speaker 2: a paranormal investigator in like the straight world and the other.
Speaker 2: And just one day I just bubbled up in me
Speaker 2: It's like, why don't you ever hear about any gay
Speaker 2: ghost stories? And that sort of set me on this
Speaker 2: mission of there have to be some out there, so
Speaker 2: I have to find these stories. And fifteen years later,
Speaker 2: I have a treasure trove of stories and past investigators,
Speaker 2: current investigators that I've communicated with all sorts of I've
Speaker 2: even gone beyond ghosts lately with a book that I
Speaker 2: have written and I'm shopping around with a publisher right
Speaker 2: now that delves into everything in the paranormal spectrum from astrology,
Speaker 2: UFOs pretty much, and how queer people have basically been
Speaker 2: proliferent throughout the entire paranormal spectrum all for the entire
Speaker 2: time that paranormal has existed.
Speaker 3: Really yeah, well, it's like so much of I would
Speaker 3: imagine finding out about the sexuality or gender identity of
Speaker 3: a ghost would be from researching and finding like the
Speaker 3: real story of who this person was at one point.
Speaker 3: But have you ever encountered, like, have you ever been
Speaker 3: ghost hunting and you're like, Okay, my gatar is going off,
Speaker 3: I feel like this ghost again.
Speaker 2: Times when you go through historical records and you've run
Speaker 2: across these confirmed bachelors and people who adopted an adult individual.
Speaker 2: That was one of the keys for historically how different
Speaker 2: days in lesbians would allow their partner to inherit their
Speaker 2: wealth after they passed was to adopt them so that
Speaker 2: that way they could legally be in the will and
Speaker 2: all that and gain things. But you run across all
Speaker 2: these interesting stories of and they like people who dress
Speaker 2: especially fancy and parade themselves in very strange ways, and
Speaker 2: it's like this person could not have been straight, because
Speaker 2: that's just impossible.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that is.
Speaker 3: It's really an interesting thing because I imagine like something that's
Speaker 3: so tough with ghost hunting, especially like over the years,
Speaker 3: these stories get the game of telephone that gets passed around,
Speaker 3: and then people a lot of times get the history
Speaker 3: of people wrong, and I feel like they make their
Speaker 3: own assumptions about who these people were, and like I
Speaker 3: think sometimes like you always hear the story of like, oh,
Speaker 3: the man that lives here loves women, so if you're
Speaker 3: a woman, like the man that haunts this place loves women,
Speaker 3: so if a woman comes in, he just might smack Yeah,
Speaker 3: so watch out, ladies, he loves you. And I'm like,
Speaker 3: he could be a gay guy that wants to get
Speaker 3: the ladies out of there. He wants to spook them
Speaker 3: off so he can get to your husband exactly.
Speaker 2: There was actually one story I remember from my last
Speaker 2: book when I was researching it and I came across
Speaker 2: there was a haunted pub in England somewhere where it
Speaker 2: was there were women being pinched, and it turned out
Speaker 2: that the ghost was a female and it was pinches
Speaker 2: on the rear end. So it's like, that's definitely not
Speaker 2: straight behavior. But there's a lot of times when there
Speaker 2: is like this questionable thing. I know. There was a
Speaker 2: story of another bar in England. It's like England must
Speaker 2: be like the central ground for gay ghos, I guess,
Speaker 2: but there's there was another bar where in the kitchen
Speaker 2: area men's zippers on their pants kept getting pulled down.
Speaker 2: What Yeah, And they brought in a psych gick who
Speaker 2: they found this old photograph of the bakery from a
Speaker 2: century ago, and she was she was asked to pick
Speaker 2: out who on that was the one that was haunting
Speaker 2: and it turned out to be a man who is
Speaker 2: pulling down living men's pants zippers. Oh my god.
Speaker 3: See I could see people be like he was a
Speaker 3: tailor and that's why he's doing it. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's not why he's pulling it down. We know what
Speaker 3: he's looking for. Oh, these ghosts. I'm obsessed with this
Speaker 3: whole idea of gay ghosts tell me some gay ghos, well,
Speaker 3: a lot.
Speaker 2: Of them that I find are. The way that I
Speaker 2: find them is you take people who were known to
Speaker 2: be gay and look for the hauntings. Like Truman Capoti
Speaker 2: Tennessee Williams. They both haunt the same bar, even though
Speaker 2: they pretty much disliked each other in life, but.
Speaker 3: They both haunted together, Like do you think that they
Speaker 3: are aware of each other?
Speaker 2: I don't think so, because this is it's a bar
Speaker 2: called Cafe Lafitte in exile in New Orleans, and Tennessee
Speaker 2: Williams sits in his favorite spot at the bar, and
Speaker 2: Truman Capote haunts the stairwell leading to the upstairs and
Speaker 2: tries to strike up conversations with people, So they're in
Speaker 2: two different areas of the building. Tennessee is not interacting
Speaker 2: with anyone who's just looking distraught all the time, but
Speaker 2: Truman is being himself and being the life of the
Speaker 2: party and trying to chat people up the whole time.
Speaker 3: So, but do you like he appears like full body
Speaker 3: like people think it's actually Truman Capote and then he
Speaker 3: disappears or what.
Speaker 2: What I've heard? They just hear his voice, they don't
Speaker 2: actually see him in the stairway. They just they can
Speaker 2: hear him talking to them, and it's just a little
Speaker 2: bit unnerving.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can imagine. Oh my god, tell me, mor
Speaker 3: tell me more, tell me.
Speaker 2: May Well, gosh, I'm trying to think of. Oh, there's
Speaker 2: a lot of celebrities from the past who have haunted
Speaker 2: different places. The Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel is haunted. It's a
Speaker 2: well known haunted location.
Speaker 1: Classic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I cannot I don't know why, but for
Speaker 2: some reason, I cannot remember the actor's name.
Speaker 1: Montgomery Cliff.
Speaker 2: Yes, he haunts the building because he rehearsed there for
Speaker 2: a movie and people still hear him playing the trumpet
Speaker 2: and complain thinking it's an actual living person. But that's
Speaker 2: Montgomery Cliff still rehearsing the trumpet in his old hotel
Speaker 2: room in there, and he was very very much closeted person.
Speaker 2: So many people in that time period of Hollywood and
Speaker 2: everything else like that. But then, yeah, there's James Whale.
Speaker 2: He actually he's apparently I don't I he haunted his look.
Speaker 2: He's the director of Frankenstein for those people who don't know,
Speaker 2: but the original Frankenstein and Brida Frankenstein. He committed suicide
Speaker 2: in his Pacific Palisades house in the pool, and the
Speaker 2: one of the later owners had it filled in, but
Speaker 2: actually the former the later owner, had an exorcism performed
Speaker 2: to get rid of his ghost because she didn't like
Speaker 2: having him around. Walt Whitman, the poet, He haunts one
Speaker 2: of his favorite hiking spots in New York. Actually the
Speaker 2: trail is called the Walt Women Trail, so it's pretty
Speaker 2: easy to find him. And he actually spent a year
Speaker 2: of his life trying to learn how to become a
Speaker 2: psychic medium. He failed miserably, but he always found mediumship fascinating.
Speaker 2: He actually had his head measured for phrenology by Fowler,
Speaker 2: who pretty much invented phrenology, where you different parts of
Speaker 2: your head mean different things, And he actually coined a
Speaker 2: new term dealing with Walt Whitman called a massiveness, which
Speaker 2: was basically, I'm trying to think of exactly how he
Speaker 2: phrased it back in eighteen fifty, but it's a lack
Speaker 2: of conjugal love and an avoidance of marriage, something along
Speaker 2: those lines, but basically trying to say gay, right, but it's.
Speaker 3: A long way to say, yeah, there's no pride called
Speaker 3: lack of contumicult love and avoidance of marriage.
Speaker 2: But yeah, and Harvey Milk was still a very well
Speaker 2: known activist from the past. He actually was at his
Speaker 2: camera shop when they were filming the movie Milk And
Speaker 2: actually gust Vincente had said somewhere during an interview that
Speaker 2: while they were recording one of the scenes, there was
Speaker 2: someone walking around the background and it was getting annoying
Speaker 2: because it was closed set. There wasn't supposed to be
Speaker 2: anyone extra back there, and when someone finally bothered to
Speaker 2: look closer to see who it was, it was Harvey
Speaker 2: Milk standing in the background watching them film seen about
Speaker 2: him a little bit of a narcissist, but I guess
Speaker 2: that's okay.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Harvey.
Speaker 3: Mike was probably like, I didn't wear that.
Speaker 1: That's not how it went down.
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1: What about Liberaci's Ghost.
Speaker 2: Yes, he well, unfortunately his restaurant is closed. It is.
Speaker 2: Last I heard it was a Russian restaurant, but yeah,
Speaker 2: it was originally called Liberacis Tivoli Gardens, then it became
Speaker 2: Carluccio's for a long time. But yeah, he he has
Speaker 2: hearted that bar. He liked to h the restaurant. I mean,
Speaker 2: and they had the used to have a lot of
Speaker 2: his costumes and instruments and everything all over the place,
Speaker 2: a lot of memorabilia. He liked to lock women in
Speaker 2: the women's restroom all the time.
Speaker 3: Because he liked women. It's because he liked women, That's
Speaker 3: why he did it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was his big claim too. So but yeah,
Speaker 2: and people have seen glimpses of his sequent kate in
Speaker 2: the building because he had secret entrances that he could
Speaker 2: pop in and go to his piano and start playing
Speaker 2: for people randomly whenever he felt like it. But then
Speaker 2: he also is extremely easily upset by jokes, because there
Speaker 2: was one incident where a bartender at the bar was
Speaker 2: making a wise crack about Liberati being gay, and a
Speaker 2: bottle of wine flew off the rack above her and
Speaker 2: smashed right at her feet. So he was letting her
Speaker 2: know that he really did not appreciate the humor of
Speaker 2: the joke.
Speaker 1: The insinuation. Whatever do you mean?
Speaker 3: Actually, Debbie Gibson and one time told a story on
Speaker 3: the best TV show in history, Celebrity Ghost Stories, and
Speaker 3: she somehow got her hands I can't remember the exact story,
Speaker 3: but she like got Liberachi's piano and like has it
Speaker 3: in her home and it's haunted.
Speaker 2: Oh nice, Yeah, the one from the old restaurant. I
Speaker 2: think so goes closed down too, And I know we
Speaker 2: had more than one piano, and so it must have
Speaker 2: come from one of those two places.
Speaker 3: Have you ever seen that movie about him?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: I have.
Speaker 1: I didn't know any of that stuff. That is wild.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's his life was very interesting. He was a
Speaker 2: very interesting person, and the people who came part of
Speaker 2: his life were very interesting. But the one thing they
Speaker 2: did kind of miss that I always liked was the
Speaker 2: final days of his life were actually spent in his
Speaker 2: bed with his dogs all piled on top of himself
Speaker 2: and watching reruns of Golden Girls. Oh not a terrible
Speaker 2: way to go out.
Speaker 1: Livarachi, rest in peace. That's amazing.
Speaker 3: I I'm wondering now, also about our lesbian ghosts. What
Speaker 3: kind of lesbian ghosts do you know about?
Speaker 2: There are well, not so much in the famous, is
Speaker 2: that okay? Yeah? But yeah, of course I have to
Speaker 2: give equal treatment, and I try my best to cover
Speaker 2: as many people as possible. There's uh, there's a kind
Speaker 2: of famous but not so much famous over here. Story
Speaker 2: of the Ladies of Langollen in Wales. It was these
Speaker 2: two women in the late eighteen century, Susan and Sarah,
Speaker 2: who one of whom was older and dressed as a
Speaker 2: man all the time. But they originally they lived in
Speaker 2: Ireland and they eloped together and fled Ireland and settled
Speaker 2: in a little town in Wales called Langollen, and they
Speaker 2: bought a house called plas naw It. It still exists
Speaker 2: to this day as a historical museum. They lived there
Speaker 2: their entire lives. They they were like celebrities, celebrities, local
Speaker 2: celebrities really and they met They had different famous poets
Speaker 2: as guests. They were very very popular among the locals.
Speaker 2: But it was pretty much well known that they were
Speaker 2: a lesbian couple, even though there have been some historical
Speaker 2: accounts that have been trying to backpedal that a bit
Speaker 2: that oh, it's a romantic friendship. That's no, they were lovers,
Speaker 2: let's just get it flat. But they still haunt their
Speaker 2: old house, especially around Christmas time. They're very friendly ghosts,
Speaker 2: but they're still there. And there's also one story that
Speaker 2: it's it's very controversial in a lot of ways, but
Speaker 2: Lizzie Borden I will add her to the list because
Speaker 2: there's there's a decent amount of evidence suggesting that she
Speaker 2: wasn't straight.
Speaker 3: Well, there was that movie I saw, was that Kristen Stewart. Yeah,
Speaker 3: wasn't it like kind of lesbian heavy movie?
Speaker 2: Yes, it was, And I know a lot of people
Speaker 2: get upset by that. There's no there was. She was
Speaker 2: just she was just a spinster basically kind of thing.
Speaker 2: But no, she had a romantic relationship with an actress
Speaker 2: named Nance O'Neill and that went horribly wrong along the way.
Speaker 2: But there's good reason to believe that that is what
Speaker 2: basically led to the split of her and her sister,
Speaker 2: because Lizzie Borden and her sister had a huge blow
Speaker 2: up fight around the time that Nance came over and
Speaker 2: brought her actor and entourage with her, and the two
Speaker 2: of them never spoke again for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 2: So it must have been something very very very serious,
Speaker 2: like coming out or something like that that led to
Speaker 2: this whole split. And they actually died within a week
Speaker 2: of each other. I think it was just a few
Speaker 2: days after Lizzie died that her sister fell down the
Speaker 2: steps and broke her neck. Wow. Yeah, but no, everyone
Speaker 2: always focuses on the Ben and Breakfast, the Lizzieboard and
Speaker 2: Ben Breakfast, where the murders happened, and all that. She
Speaker 2: doesn't haunt there. She haunts the house that she had
Speaker 2: after that, called Maplecroft, which she She was a very
Speaker 2: rebellious woman in a lot of respects, and she did
Speaker 2: one thing that victorians thought was well allegedly it.
Speaker 3: Was never prettyellous, maybe the most rebellious thing a person can.
Speaker 2: Do, but but no, she didn't care what other people
Speaker 2: thought of her. And when she bought Maplecroft, she had
Speaker 2: the name of the house chiseled into the front steps,
Speaker 2: which you can still see today, and that was considered
Speaker 2: by victorians to be extremely distasteful. But no, she was
Speaker 2: a lover of poets and animals and music. And actually
Speaker 2: I think it was thirty thousand dollars of the money
Speaker 2: in her will went to the Fall River Animal Shelter,
Speaker 2: and they still have information on their website about that
Speaker 2: because basically that huge donation back in the nineteen thirties
Speaker 2: has helped them still exist this very day. She believed
Speaker 2: that animals were better than people, which in a lot
Speaker 2: of times that's very much true.
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, I'm realizing now that I actually don't
Speaker 3: know a lot about Lizzie Borden.
Speaker 1: Didn't a lot of people.
Speaker 3: So she didn't kill her parents, or she did kill
Speaker 3: her parents, We don't know. Somebody actually kill her parents.
Speaker 2: A question of debate. There are so many It's well,
Speaker 2: there's always the Lizzie board and took an axe, give
Speaker 2: her mother her father forty wax thing, But that was
Speaker 2: that was actually a newspaper selling slogan. It never happened
Speaker 2: that way exactly. But she was acquitted of the crime,
Speaker 2: so she was never formally charged and convicted of murder.
Speaker 2: And there's arguments to be made on both sides of
Speaker 2: the story as to whether she actually did it or
Speaker 2: someone else actually did it. So it's one of those
Speaker 2: never to be solved mysteries pretty much at this point.
Speaker 1: But her parents haunt that bed and breakfast, right.
Speaker 2: Yes, And her step her father was not the most
Speaker 2: wonderful person in the first place, not justifying murder or
Speaker 2: anything like that, but he was. He was a rather stingy,
Speaker 2: rotten person who just wasn't a pleasant person to live with.
Speaker 2: And her stepmother wasn't the best person either, So I
Speaker 2: can understand if she did commit it, commit the murders.
Speaker 2: I can understand why in that type of environment something
Speaker 2: that bad could happen.
Speaker 1: But maybe it was somebody else.
Speaker 2: There were other suspects. There was a someone believed to
Speaker 2: be a serial killer in the area at the time
Speaker 2: who could have committed it. There was stories that possibly
Speaker 2: the maid doing it, who supposed that she was having
Speaker 2: an affair with There were a lot of different rumors
Speaker 2: going around that still still go around today that nobody
Speaker 2: knows for sure. It's it's trying to solve one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty year old murder is a little bit challenging
Speaker 2: these days because you don't have any physical evidence left,
Speaker 2: you don't need. All you have is stories and everybody
Speaker 2: makes up gossip about everybody else, So it's it's never
Speaker 2: probably going to be solved one.
Speaker 3: Oh, Lisey Borden. Now I feel bad for Lizzie Bording kinda.
Speaker 3: I like that she has animals.
Speaker 2: She was She was a very intelligent person, very unique person,
Speaker 2: and she was a good soul in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: But nobody is ever one good and one or one
Speaker 2: per evil. There's always some combination of the two. Everything
Speaker 2: is somewhere in between.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like, you know, I always talk about
Speaker 3: theaters being haunted, and I love I love the I
Speaker 3: love theaters, and I love the idea of haunted theaters,
Speaker 3: and they're also uh safe haven for queer people. And
Speaker 3: there's always there's You can't have a theater without some
Speaker 3: queer people up in there. So I imagine there's probably a
Speaker 3: lot of haunted theaters by queer people, right.
Speaker 2: Actually, yes, there are, there's. It's it's always tricky to
Speaker 2: be sure because there's a lot of stories. Unless you
Speaker 2: know for sure someone's personal history, it can be a
Speaker 2: little bit difficult to find out for sure if it's
Speaker 2: just really a case of gay ghost And that's that's
Speaker 2: always my tricky point is I need to find some
Speaker 2: kind of definitive evidence to back up what I find
Speaker 2: in different ways. But I know that there is one
Speaker 2: theater in England, the Queen's Theater. I don't even mean
Speaker 2: that in the sense of irony or anything like that,
Speaker 2: but the Queen's Theater is actually one of the one
Speaker 2: of the many many hatted theaters in England, and it
Speaker 2: does have some queer connections with it, with the hauntings
Speaker 2: and everything like that as well.
Speaker 1: It does.
Speaker 2: They do believe that John Gielgul could be the one
Speaker 2: of the ghosts at that particular place, even though he
Speaker 2: had a theater directly next door to it. They believe
Speaker 2: that he, uh the actor and director, maybe the man
Speaker 2: in the gray suit that's seen wandering in that building there.
Speaker 1: Hmmm.
Speaker 3: Curious what about you know, gender nonconforming, transgender goes.
Speaker 1: Do you encounter those? Ever?
Speaker 2: That's always been the tricky one because I tend to
Speaker 2: deal with stories from the distant past more often than
Speaker 2: more recent. But and that's where it gets you have
Speaker 2: to sort of understand the vernacular of the times. There
Speaker 2: are some situations of cross stressing ghosts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it is interesting when you look into
Speaker 3: trans history because you know, it wasn't it wasn't something
Speaker 3: that people could just you know, do you can just
Speaker 3: transition and just live your life. I mean, there are
Speaker 3: some cases, but they're few and far between. Of course,
Speaker 3: if you look at like different cultures, you know there's and.
Speaker 2: For a long a long period of time and history,
Speaker 2: just dressing in the opposite gender was literally a crime
Speaker 2: that could bland you in jail, which is what There's
Speaker 2: a lot of stories of people that I have uncovered
Speaker 2: from spiritualism and all realms of the paranormal who were
Speaker 2: gender non conforming in a lot of ways, and many,
Speaker 2: many times were arrested for dressing in the wrong gender,
Speaker 2: usually women dressing as men, which was especially frowned upon
Speaker 2: because you're you're trying to imitate that the correct gender
Speaker 2: and a lot of people's ideas. But but yeah, there
Speaker 2: was a lot of cross stressing going on, and it's
Speaker 2: it's it's always been a very difficult thing. And that's
Speaker 2: what makes it difficult when you're dealing with the paranormal
Speaker 2: and researching these people is you don't always know why
Speaker 2: they're doing it. Is were they were they were they transgender,
Speaker 2: or were they just did they just enjoy thing of
Speaker 2: the other gender. There's a there's a lot of a
Speaker 2: lot of questions involved in a lot of that, and
Speaker 2: I don't like to get to to bog down in
Speaker 2: uh trying to translate it all. But but no, like
Speaker 2: you were saying, with the cultures, there's there's always been
Speaker 2: in every culture you can pretty much find, there's been
Speaker 2: a history of people who dressed in opposite gendered clothing,
Speaker 2: everything from Native American two spirits to over in India,
Speaker 2: there were I don't want to pronounce it wrong, but
Speaker 2: I think it's hero which is sort of a cultural
Speaker 2: group of men who dress as women and take on
Speaker 2: female gender roles. But there they were very highly regarded
Speaker 2: for a very long time. They've become a little bit
Speaker 2: less liked in recent years, but they still exist as
Speaker 2: a culture of phenomena, and it's something that's always permeated everything.
Speaker 2: And it used to have a lot more to do
Speaker 2: with people who had these conflicting genders, for lack of
Speaker 2: a better term, were usually thought of as important people.
Speaker 2: They were the healers, they were the wise people of
Speaker 2: the tribe. They were the sorcerers, they were the ones
Speaker 2: that were more in touch with the spirits because they
Speaker 2: could be both genders at the same time. So there
Speaker 2: was a very spiritual significance to someone who walked the
Speaker 2: line between genders like that.
Speaker 1: My personal opinion that still holds up.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely what And I think a lot of
Speaker 2: it has to do with the fact that people in
Speaker 2: the entire queer spectrum, you live on the edge of
Speaker 2: the society you're in in a lot of respects, so
Speaker 2: you're more observant of everything than the average person walking
Speaker 2: down the street with a single gender and straight heterosexual
Speaker 2: orientation who just goes about average everyday life. You realize
Speaker 2: your own differences and so you have your own internal struggles,
Speaker 2: But then you also are more observant of the people
Speaker 2: around you and how they interact with things, because you're
Speaker 2: trying to both see where you fit into society as
Speaker 2: well as how to navigate that society as best as possible.
Speaker 3: So, I mean, I also think that it probably has
Speaker 3: to do with the time you live in and the
Speaker 3: location that you live in. But I also think that
Speaker 3: there's a lot of survival technique, that survival instincts that
Speaker 3: you develop both for your own safety and for finding
Speaker 3: your own community or finding lovers or whatever you have
Speaker 3: to have, Like when people say gay dar or whatever, like,
Speaker 3: I do think that there actually is something to that
Speaker 3: that that could be also going along with being intuitive,
Speaker 3: being psychic, whatever.
Speaker 2: Exactly that's and that that's why there's a lot of gays, lesbians, bisexual,
Speaker 2: transgenders in psychic world and involved in any kind of
Speaker 2: spiritual beliefs that involve the afterlife and all that. There
Speaker 2: are a lot of gay psychics out there. There are always.
Speaker 3: Have been place the Cyrus Rex House I was reading
Speaker 3: about on your website.
Speaker 1: I didn't know about this. Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, Cyrus Rex. The town was named after him,
Speaker 2: rex Mont, Pennsylvania. He basically ran this little company town.
Speaker 2: And yeah, he lived in old brick house in what's
Speaker 2: left of Rexmont, which is not there's not even a
Speaker 2: stop sign in the side in the town. It's basically
Speaker 2: non existent anymore. But there was a female spirit observed
Speaker 2: by later owners of the house, and for one reason
Speaker 2: or another, they thought that maybe it was his niece
Speaker 2: who had lived with him for a while. But there's
Speaker 2: there was a growing belief among at least one of
Speaker 2: the owners that it was actually Cyrus himself, dressing in
Speaker 2: women's clothing who was haunting the building dressed as a woman,
Speaker 2: which actually is not that uncommon because the Rosencrown Guest
Speaker 2: House in Provincetown is also haunted by a man dressed
Speaker 2: as a woman who was the former owner of that building.
Speaker 2: He was the gay rights activist. He was an AIDS activist.
Speaker 2: He passed away of AIDS, but he always dressed in
Speaker 2: a white bride's costume for Carnival every year there and
Speaker 2: they still see him in the hallways, specifically in the library,
Speaker 2: dressed in a white dress. So there's quite a few
Speaker 2: cross guessing dressing ghosts. I actually found another old story
Speaker 2: from the nineteen fifties of a couple in California who
Speaker 2: bought antique furniture from England and there was a ghost
Speaker 2: that came with it. Of I think he might have
Speaker 2: been a page or someone's assistant or servant or something
Speaker 2: like that, but repeatedly at night he would try on
Speaker 2: the woman's clothing that she had sitting out for the
Speaker 2: next day, so he even was attempting to cross dress
Speaker 2: in the after life. Wow.
Speaker 1: See.
Speaker 3: And that kind of goes along with some people theorize
Speaker 3: that in some circumstances, when you're a ghost, you can
Speaker 3: choose to be your best self or your happiest self,
Speaker 3: or however you want to be. You know, when people
Speaker 3: say stuff like that, or it's like you can go
Speaker 3: back to being younger, even though you died when you
Speaker 3: were ninety, but you haunt as a twenty year old
Speaker 3: or whatever. You know, it's kind of that thing.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of that has to do with mentally,
Speaker 2: to go with what makes you happiest which is what
Speaker 2: I think a lot of us should be living our
Speaker 2: normal lives as doing and living the way that makes
Speaker 2: us happy, not the way that everyone else thinks we
Speaker 2: should be happy.
Speaker 3: Right, And I imagine at a time when you can
Speaker 3: openly be trans or just you know, explore your gender publicly,
Speaker 3: those moments in quiet at home at night or whatever,
Speaker 3: we're probably some of your happiest moments, your most authentic moments. Yes,
Speaker 3: what about haunted queer spaces like gay bars and stuff
Speaker 3: like that. I feel like every once in a while
Speaker 3: I'll hear about like a haunted gay bar.
Speaker 2: There are surprisingly a lot of them. What is difficult now, though,
Speaker 2: is so many queer spaces are closing, not just because
Speaker 2: of the pandemic and.
Speaker 4: COVID, but because there's sort of a cultural shift in
Speaker 4: society away from these institutions that some of us.
Speaker 1: Say grind.
Speaker 3: Grinder has taken away the gay bar.
Speaker 2: Blame it all on social media and apps. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: but no, but there are a lot of I actually
Speaker 2: worked at a haunted gay bar some twenty years ago.
Speaker 2: Everyone knows, everyone in the area knows that I'm a
Speaker 2: paranormal investigator. So anytime I go anywhere at some point,
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask if the place is haunted. And yeah,
Speaker 2: there was a bar in Akron, Ohio called Cocktails. The
Speaker 2: building has been torn down since and relocated, but yeah,
Speaker 2: I happened to ask if it was haunted. And turns
Speaker 2: out that there was a female patron who was a
Speaker 2: regular even before it was a gay bar, and she
Speaker 2: was a well known heavy drinker. And one night, the
Speaker 2: front door used to face directly out into the main street.
Speaker 2: She was especially drunk. She lived across the street, down
Speaker 2: a few streets. She walked out the front door and
Speaker 2: right into oncoming traffic and was hitting killed. And her
Speaker 2: ghosts still lingered around that building. You would catch glimpses
Speaker 2: of her. You would strange things would happen, and I
Speaker 2: remember I was talking. I told all the other bartenders
Speaker 2: about it, and the owner was a strong disbeliever and
Speaker 2: ghost so he never wanted to hear anything about it.
Speaker 2: But one of the other bartenders who I worked with
Speaker 2: one day when I came in for the afternoon shift,
Speaker 2: he said, I have to tell you about this because
Speaker 2: I know you're the only person who will believe me.
Speaker 2: And I don't know what happened, he said. I was
Speaker 2: closing up last night, and there was an upstairs bar
Speaker 2: and then a lower bar, and a staircase that led
Speaker 2: down facing away from the main bar, and he was
Speaker 2: counting out the money on the like two thirty three
Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, and a crumpled up napkin flew
Speaker 2: down the stairs, and he thought, that's strange, but maybe
Speaker 2: the wind caught something. Just brush it off, pretend like
Speaker 2: it didn't happen, goes back to counting the money, and
Speaker 2: ten minutes later, another crumpled up napkin comes flying down
Speaker 2: the stairs, rolled up in a ball. He freaked out immediately,
Speaker 2: he left the money where it was, didn't even set
Speaker 2: the alarm, just locked the door behind him and ran
Speaker 2: out of the building and left. So the owner was
Speaker 2: very upset with him the next day for not setting
Speaker 2: the alarm and leaving money out like that. But he
Speaker 2: was just terrified of whatever it was that was there,
Speaker 2: that was trying to let him know that something, something
Speaker 2: was there and needed some attention from him.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, another theory that some people have is
Speaker 3: like just the energy, the collective energy of a lot
Speaker 3: of people, people being happy, people being sad, people being drunk,
Speaker 3: chaos fighting, whatever, all of that can linger around and
Speaker 3: can not manifest into move and shit around a bar.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of well, there's
Speaker 2: even cases of very very very very old gay bars,
Speaker 2: Like in England, there's the Molly houses that they used
Speaker 2: to have back in the eighteenth century. Usually it was
Speaker 2: a woman who ran the establishment for those like us,
Speaker 2: and she was referred to as mother, very very drag
Speaker 2: appropriate name. But no, there was a famous raid that
Speaker 2: took place on one of these molly houses, and there
Speaker 2: is still a ghost story attached to that that people
Speaker 2: could still hear the crowd fleeing for their lives from
Speaker 2: the police from that location, running down the same street
Speaker 2: that had happened on some two hundred and fifty three
Speaker 2: hundred years ago. One of my favorite stories that I
Speaker 2: have come across is it was documented in a book
Speaker 2: by a former famous researcher named Nanderfodor. He was a psychologist,
Speaker 2: psychiatrist and a paranormal investigator back in the nineteen thirties
Speaker 2: and forties, and he had a friend who was a
Speaker 2: lesbian and he wrote about her in his book and
Speaker 2: basically for the nineteen forties when the book came out
Speaker 2: for someone to basically say that there's absolutely nothing wrong
Speaker 2: with anyone's sexuality is quite remarkable and it's so. But
Speaker 2: he said that this woman that was his good friend
Speaker 2: had a lover who passed away and took her a
Speaker 2: long time to get over her grief, but she finally did,
Speaker 2: and she met another woman and set up an appointment
Speaker 2: in a New York hotel room for an evening together
Speaker 2: in private, and just when they were getting intimate in bed,
Speaker 2: the phone started ringing and it kept ringing, and it
Speaker 2: rang non stop, and it was so constant that the
Speaker 2: girl she was with got very uncomfortable and left in
Speaker 2: a hurry. The next morning, she went downstairs and berated
Speaker 2: the clerk, talking about how I will have your job.
Speaker 2: That was horrible of you to do, and just going
Speaker 2: on about and he said, I'm sorry, I didn't mean
Speaker 2: to disturb you or anything. But the person on the
Speaker 2: phone said it was an emergent. Didn't see and so
Speaker 2: she got she got the phone number. It was a
Speaker 2: California number, and that's when she remembered that she knew
Speaker 2: a psychic out in California that she had spoken to
Speaker 2: when she was trying to get in contact with her
Speaker 2: dead lover. So she called up the psychic said, what
Speaker 2: was so important that you had to call me in
Speaker 2: the middle of the night in New York about And
Speaker 2: she said, I'm sorry about this, but your lover came
Speaker 2: to me and demanded that I call you immediately because
Speaker 2: she had a message for you. And she said, what
Speaker 2: was the message? And she said, your lover said, I'm
Speaker 2: extremely disappointed in you. So her dead lover did not
Speaker 2: like the fact that she was moving on with another
Speaker 2: woman and wanted to let her know that she was
Speaker 2: disapproving of the new girl.
Speaker 3: Damn that is that's like psychic Jerry Springer.
Speaker 1: Yes, oh my god.
Speaker 3: Well you also had mentioned to me in an email
Speaker 3: about lesbian lesbians that were abducted by aliens.
Speaker 1: Yes, what is the book?
Speaker 2: The book was actually also written by a gay man
Speaker 2: and a straight woman. The book is called The Tahunga
Speaker 2: Canyon Contact.
Speaker 3: Wait, I actually I have looked into this before, but
Speaker 3: remind me, remind me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, between I want to say nineteen fifty and nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty or so, there was. It started out with a
Speaker 2: lesbian couple that experienced something akin to an alien abduction,
Speaker 2: and the Tohunga came in California, and it wasn't until
Speaker 2: they went through regression that they started understanding what had
Speaker 2: happened to them. And then friends of theirs started experiencing
Speaker 2: similar phenomena, and there ended up being about six women total,
Speaker 2: some of whom were gay, some straight, some questioning or bisexual,
Speaker 2: who were all connected together who were having strange experiences
Speaker 2: with abductee reports and strange phenomena and missing time and
Speaker 2: all of these very very bizarre experiences with it. And yeah,
Speaker 2: it was chronicled in a book by d. Scott Rogo
Speaker 2: and and Ruffel. D Scott Rogo was actually a paranormal investigator,
Speaker 2: very prolific paranormal investigator in the nineteen eighties. He was very,
Speaker 2: very famous in his time. He wrote like thirty books
Speaker 2: in his short life because he was murdered in a
Speaker 2: possible hate crime in nineteen ninety in his home in California.
Speaker 2: So it's a lot of weird stuff out there. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, another thing I was reading on your website is
Speaker 3: a part about abductions, and it says that they interviewed
Speaker 3: some people and they found a pretty high number of
Speaker 3: LGBTQ people have been abducted.
Speaker 2: Yes, and that's given the fact that the UFO community
Speaker 2: is on the conservative side, there's a lot of pushback
Speaker 2: against that. But there was a dettailed book written by
Speaker 2: three authors I believe it's called The Abduction Enigma. They
Speaker 2: delved into sexuality when it comes to abduction reports, even
Speaker 2: though they said that it's very difficult to know for
Speaker 2: sure because so often sexuality is completely overlooked in documenting
Speaker 2: any form of abduction reports or phenomena and all of that,
Speaker 2: but they said through their own research that there have
Speaker 2: been they have discovered that there is a higher than
Speaker 2: expected degree of people who are either hyper sexual or
Speaker 2: LGBTQ who experience abduction phenomena compared to the normal, straight,
Speaker 2: heterosexual average people.
Speaker 3: Now, are these reports of people that are also having
Speaker 3: some kind of sexual activity when they get abducted, like with.
Speaker 2: Shin, why are we not no.
Speaker 3: Why are they trying to get people that are hyper
Speaker 3: sexual and LGBTQ, And well, it's a good question.
Speaker 2: It depends entirely on what exactly is happening with with
Speaker 2: why abduction cases are happening in the first place, which
Speaker 2: is still a big, a big question mark right there.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's it's interesting in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: But if you're if you're looking to learn about a
Speaker 2: species in general, you would want to sample all the outliers,
Speaker 2: not just the most common ones. You would want to
Speaker 2: see the entire range of diversity. So if if it
Speaker 2: is like a a if it ends up being something
Speaker 2: where it is like beings from a different dimension or
Speaker 2: planet or something like that, investigating human species, it would
Speaker 2: make sense that they would want to find out all
Speaker 2: the possibilities of humans and all the different types of
Speaker 2: humans and all the the different variations of the species
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways.
Speaker 3: Well, if there's still I mean, this book was written
Speaker 3: in nineteen eety nine, but if they're still looking for
Speaker 3: queer people, I am here. I am so down to
Speaker 3: get taken up. Can you imagine what that would do
Speaker 3: for my podcast? Yeah, to come back down and tell
Speaker 3: some stories.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you would. There's probably be a few book deals
Speaker 2: in it.
Speaker 1: Too, just like a nice vacation for a while.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all as just not a metal counter that
Speaker 2: you have to lay on.
Speaker 3: Right, Honestly, I'm fine with it at this point, just
Speaker 3: to get out of here for a little bit.
Speaker 1: I'm down.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Wait, so I guess we should also I should ask
Speaker 3: you if there's bisexual ghosts that you encounter.
Speaker 2: Yes, That's where it gets a little bit complicated because
Speaker 2: there's always the question of, well, there's always been controversy
Speaker 2: with our bisexual people, just people who can't make up
Speaker 2: their minds and they're just in denial.
Speaker 3: Well especially I'm sure you'll you'll find historical, uh, you know,
Speaker 3: evidence of a straight couple and the husband has affairs
Speaker 3: with men, and then people might say, oh, well that
Speaker 3: he's gay, but he could have been bisexual, like who know,
Speaker 3: who really knows exactly?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's that's where it becomes a bit difficult,
Speaker 2: because who's to say that someone is gay when they
Speaker 2: could have been bisexual? Even I mean, Vincent Price's daughter
Speaker 2: said that she believed that he was bisexual, and that's
Speaker 2: still a controversial thing, even though his daughter said that.
Speaker 2: But but yeah, there's but there's a lot of things
Speaker 2: where it's it's difficult to say for sure if someone
Speaker 2: is technically bisexual or if they were full fledged k.
Speaker 1: Does Vincent Price haunt someplace? Because I'm obsessed with Vincent Price.
Speaker 2: I wish he did. I know that he had a
Speaker 2: very prone, profound paranormal experience when a friend of his
Speaker 2: passed away. But no, he was on a plane at
Speaker 2: the time of this actor's death and there was sort
Speaker 2: of a strange light in the sky out his window
Speaker 2: and he looked out and in the clouds he could
Speaker 2: see the words that so and so is dead, and
Speaker 2: he thought, that's just weird. And he landed, and not
Speaker 2: not an hour after landing, he got the news that
Speaker 2: while he was on that flight, his friend had passed away.
Speaker 3: He also recorded an album. Do you know the album
Speaker 3: that he recorded about witchcraft and Satanism.
Speaker 2: He recorded a couple of different things he I know,
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was from that album or not,
Speaker 2: but he recorded a a reading of I don't know
Speaker 2: what he was reading, but it was about how to
Speaker 2: see ghosts or sure they bring them to you.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, but yeah, he's he was very much into very
Speaker 2: creepy things. He had a lot of gay friends too.
Speaker 2: There was a very famous gay Hollywood couple that lived
Speaker 2: directly across the street from them. So he was extremely
Speaker 2: open with sexuality. And his daughter is a lesbian and
Speaker 2: she said he was fully accepting of her when when
Speaker 2: she came out to him. Wow, And supposedly that's when
Speaker 2: he admitted that he had experienced relationships with men in
Speaker 2: his life as well.
Speaker 1: Okay, Wall, we should probably wrap it up soon.
Speaker 3: But one of my favorite I think, I mean, I
Speaker 3: never like to say my favorite, but one of my
Speaker 3: favorite haunted places is this place in San Diego called
Speaker 3: Villa Montezuma. Yes, that place is so cool, and it
Speaker 3: is haunted by this man who was very queer.
Speaker 2: Jesse Shephard, also known as Francis Grierson. Yes, when he
Speaker 2: was a writer, he was a psychic pianist, so he
Speaker 2: but he didn't like living as a psychic, even though
Speaker 2: the spiritualist community out there built this amazing Queen Anne
Speaker 2: Victoria House for him, that the ice. I would love
Speaker 2: to go inside it. I've only been on the outside myself,
Speaker 2: but I would love to go inside it just to
Speaker 2: see the stained glass window of Sappho that he has there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, apparently up sometime, I've never gotten to go inside either.
Speaker 2: But yeah, but no, he was. He was a psychic.
Speaker 2: He could channel different spirits, he could channel composers.
Speaker 1: He was.
Speaker 2: He made a good living doing that, but he decided
Speaker 2: he didn't want to be known as a psychic, so
Speaker 2: he wanted to be known as a musician. So he
Speaker 2: went off to Europe, failed miserably as trying to just
Speaker 2: be a regular musician and an author, and came back
Speaker 2: to San Diego dirt poor. And it was actually during
Speaker 2: his performance for he was doing a fundraiser just to
Speaker 2: get enough money to try and keep alive in basic life.
Speaker 2: He held a concert as a fundraiser and he played
Speaker 2: the final song and stopped and bowed his head at
Speaker 2: the keyboard, and everyone applauded, and then they stopped and
Speaker 2: he didn't move, and that's when they realized that he
Speaker 2: had died right after playing the final notes of that song.
Speaker 2: But he had a male secretary who well, yeah, I've
Speaker 2: had a few people complained to me and say, no,
Speaker 2: they were not lovers. They were just business partners.
Speaker 3: I've had a female secretary as myself.
Speaker 2: He traveled with him everywhere. They were an inseparable couple.
Speaker 2: There was it was not just just the boss, that's all.
Speaker 2: But no, and he he haunts he's supposed to haunt
Speaker 2: that building. There was a cat that there was a
Speaker 2: fire at the building at one time. There was a cat,
Speaker 2: I want to say that was found in the that
Speaker 2: they named Psyche and they believed that that cat actually
Speaker 2: was the reincarnation of Shepherd himself if I remember correctly.
Speaker 1: Too cool, But there has to be a movie about its.
Speaker 2: Been shut down for so long. Even when I went
Speaker 2: there back in two thousand and nine, I could only
Speaker 2: see the outside of the building, but it was so frustrating.
Speaker 1: Ken, this has been great.
Speaker 3: You are a lovely storyteller and I love hearing these stories.
Speaker 3: Can you tell people where to get your book and
Speaker 3: find it and all that stuff?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yes. My book from two thousand and nine, so
Speaker 2: it's been a while, Queer Hauntings True Tales of Gay
Speaker 2: Lesbian Ghosts was published by Leafy Press and it's still
Speaker 2: available through Leafy Press, but also anywhere books are sold,
Speaker 2: Barnes and Noble, Amazon, you name it. I hopefully fingers
Speaker 2: crossed and my agent, Sanity at Sake, will be having
Speaker 2: a new book coming out, tentatively titled Weirdly Queer, which
Speaker 2: is going to tackle the history of all paranormal phenomena
Speaker 2: related to LGBTQ perspectives. You can visit my website Moonspenders
Speaker 2: dot com or do a search for queer paranormal and
Speaker 2: that will come up first. I have some information on there,
Speaker 2: not a whole lot, because I'm holding back on a
Speaker 2: lot of it and I haven't had much time to
Speaker 2: digest everything into a smaller form to post on the
Speaker 2: website recently. But as time goes on, I'm going to
Speaker 2: be adding a lot more to do with everything from
Speaker 2: updated ghost stories to voodoo and Santa Ria and witchcraft,
Speaker 2: the history of witchcraft, and sexuality and you name it, really,
Speaker 2: because there's so much fascinating stuff out there with weirdness
Speaker 2: and queerness combining into one. Yeah, and I have a
Speaker 2: few possible other projects coming on the horizon, but I
Speaker 2: don't know anything for sure, so I can't really say
Speaker 2: much about that. But yeah, and you can also since
Speaker 2: you interviewed Greg and Dana Nwkirk, you can find some
Speaker 2: of my past writings on their Week and Weird website.
Speaker 2: I used to write a bit of more humorous perspective
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, but I have some old
Speaker 2: queer stories on there as well about ghosts and strange
Speaker 2: news stories and all sorts of weirdness on there too.
Speaker 1: Cool.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much, and I hope we can
Speaker 3: talk again sometime. Thank you so much. To Ken, I
Speaker 3: hope you have a lovely Pride month. As we go
Speaker 3: on into Pride Month, I think it is so important
Speaker 3: that we honor the people that came before us.
Speaker 1: So often their.
Speaker 3: Stories get erased or revised, and I'm very happy to
Speaker 3: be LGBTQ, very proud, be proud of who you are.
Speaker 3: You know something else I forgot to tell you about
Speaker 3: last week's episode with Sapphire Sandalo. We ended up getting
Speaker 3: on video and you can watch the full video version
Speaker 3: of that episode on YouTube, which is something else that
Speaker 3: will be happening more and more and more, So look
Speaker 3: out for that.
Speaker 1: Guys.
Speaker 3: Please be subscribed to the show and tell your friends,
Speaker 3: tweet about it, post about it. Rate at five stars
Speaker 3: wherever you can. I definitely want to be reading more
Speaker 3: ghost stories on the pod, so please send me some
Speaker 3: relatively short ghost stories in a five star review, or
Speaker 3: just email me at ghosted by Roz at gmail dot com.
Speaker 3: I'm on Instagram at Roz Hernandez TikTok and Twitter at
Speaker 3: It's Roz Hernandez. And next week you will hear me
Speaker 3: and Patton Oswalt and Meredith Salander.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's crazy. I love you all, both
Speaker 1: living and dead. But if I didn't ask you to
Speaker 1: haunt me. Don't haunt me.
Speaker 2: Came back
Speaker 1: Star, a podcast network,