1 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: What's that at my bed? It's spooky and joy I'm 2 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: really sure it's dead. It's coming this way. 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 2: Wait a minute, Hey, I ghosted. 4 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: Tyros Dress. Hey boo, it's me Roz. 5 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 3: You know, next month or next week is Pride month, 6 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 3: and of course it's always Pride month. 7 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: Here A ghosted. 8 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 3: But I thought it'd be fun just to just to 9 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 3: get a little head start by talking to a queer historian, 10 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 3: paranormal researcher, paranormal investigator, an author named Ken Summers. Ken 11 00:00:55,040 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 3: Summers wrote a book called Queer Hauntings True Tale of 12 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 3: Gay and Lesbian Ghosts, And I asked Ken about the 13 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 3: whole the whole spectrum of you know, LGBTQ ghosts and 14 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 3: and the relationship to queerness and the paranormals. So we 15 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 3: have a cool conversation about that that you will hear today. 16 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 3: I also it was a it was a quite quite 17 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 3: the conversation. We got into a lot of stuff, so 18 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 3: I did have to cut out a chunk through it. 19 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 3: On Patreon, Patreon dot com slash Ross Dress vilas link 20 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 3: in the description, where you could also find a weekly 21 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 3: podcast episode that I am putting up this week as well. 22 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 3: And I'm so excited for next week. You guys, there's 23 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 3: gonna be some changes. People on my Patreon I have 24 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 3: already heard about these changes, but uh, for everyone else, 25 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 3: this it's gonna be. 26 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: It's to be. 27 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 3: It's gonna be a different week next week. Here I'm 28 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 3: ghosted and I'm really excited about it. 29 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: And so don't you worry. 30 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 3: I will still be talking about the paranormal every week, 31 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 3: and I am going to change a few things about 32 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 3: the podcast, just like some different kinds of episodes will 33 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 3: be popping up more next week. 34 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: I can't even. 35 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 3: Believe this, but I am going to be joined by 36 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 3: truly one of my favorite comedians. I just recorded the 37 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 3: episode and we had so much fun. I'm going to 38 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 3: be joined by two people, Patton Oswalt and his wife, 39 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 3: actress Meredith Salenger. I can't wait for you to hear it. 40 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 3: Oh my god, Oh my god, my god, my god. 41 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 3: So we'll get into that next week. I'll tell you 42 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 3: more about some of the changes I have planned going 43 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 3: on with the pod cast. It's all fun, exciting stuff, 44 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 3: don't you worry. And anyway, I say, we just get 45 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 3: into this conversation about queer hauntings with Ken Summers on 46 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 3: with the show, you guys, I am joined by a 47 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 3: queer historian, a paranormal researcher, an investigator who specializes in 48 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 3: LGBTQ ghosts. Ladies, gentlemen, everybody, please welcome Ken Summers. 49 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, and thank you for having me. 50 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: Thank you for doing this. 51 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 3: I'm so excited to talk about gay ghos. I mean, 52 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 3: it's Pride Month, It's it's something that I always want 53 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 3: to talk about on the show. I just don't know 54 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 3: of that many LGBTQ ghosts, so it sounds like you're 55 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 3: the person to talk to. 56 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are surprisingly quite a few. They're very difficult 57 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: to find, as you can probably imagine. But actually that's 58 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 2: what started me on this quest many many years ago, 59 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: just doing local investigations in Ohio where I am and 60 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: sort of living two lives in a way, being like 61 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: being a gay man in one respect and then being 62 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 2: a paranormal investigator in like the straight world and the other. 63 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: And just one day I just bubbled up in me 64 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 2: It's like, why don't you ever hear about any gay 65 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: ghost stories? And that sort of set me on this 66 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 2: mission of there have to be some out there, so 67 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: I have to find these stories. And fifteen years later, 68 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: I have a treasure trove of stories and past investigators, 69 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: current investigators that I've communicated with all sorts of I've 70 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: even gone beyond ghosts lately with a book that I 71 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 2: have written and I'm shopping around with a publisher right 72 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: now that delves into everything in the paranormal spectrum from astrology, 73 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 2: UFOs pretty much, and how queer people have basically been 74 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: proliferent throughout the entire paranormal spectrum all for the entire 75 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: time that paranormal has existed. 76 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 3: Really yeah, well, it's like so much of I would 77 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 3: imagine finding out about the sexuality or gender identity of 78 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 3: a ghost would be from researching and finding like the 79 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 3: real story of who this person was at one point. 80 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 3: But have you ever encountered, like, have you ever been 81 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 3: ghost hunting and you're like, Okay, my gatar is going off, 82 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 3: I feel like this ghost again. 83 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: Times when you go through historical records and you've run 84 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: across these confirmed bachelors and people who adopted an adult individual. 85 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 2: That was one of the keys for historically how different 86 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: days in lesbians would allow their partner to inherit their 87 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 2: wealth after they passed was to adopt them so that 88 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: that way they could legally be in the will and 89 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 2: all that and gain things. But you run across all 90 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: these interesting stories of and they like people who dress 91 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 2: especially fancy and parade themselves in very strange ways, and 92 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: it's like this person could not have been straight, because 93 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: that's just impossible. 94 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that is. 95 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 3: It's really an interesting thing because I imagine like something that's 96 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:08,679 Speaker 3: so tough with ghost hunting, especially like over the years, 97 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 3: these stories get the game of telephone that gets passed around, 98 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 3: and then people a lot of times get the history 99 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 3: of people wrong, and I feel like they make their 100 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 3: own assumptions about who these people were, and like I 101 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 3: think sometimes like you always hear the story of like, oh, 102 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 3: the man that lives here loves women, so if you're 103 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 3: a woman, like the man that haunts this place loves women, 104 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 3: so if a woman comes in, he just might smack Yeah, 105 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 3: so watch out, ladies, he loves you. And I'm like, 106 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 3: he could be a gay guy that wants to get 107 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 3: the ladies out of there. He wants to spook them 108 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 3: off so he can get to your husband exactly. 109 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: There was actually one story I remember from my last 110 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: book when I was researching it and I came across 111 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: there was a haunted pub in England somewhere where it 112 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 2: was there were women being pinched, and it turned out 113 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 2: that the ghost was a female and it was pinches 114 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: on the rear end. So it's like, that's definitely not 115 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: straight behavior. But there's a lot of times when there 116 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: is like this questionable thing. I know. There was a 117 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 2: story of another bar in England. It's like England must 118 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: be like the central ground for gay ghos, I guess, 119 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 2: but there's there was another bar where in the kitchen 120 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 2: area men's zippers on their pants kept getting pulled down. 121 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:01,239 Speaker 2: What Yeah, And they brought in a psych gick who 122 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: they found this old photograph of the bakery from a 123 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 2: century ago, and she was she was asked to pick 124 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 2: out who on that was the one that was haunting 125 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 2: and it turned out to be a man who is 126 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 2: pulling down living men's pants zippers. Oh my god. 127 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 3: See I could see people be like he was a 128 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 3: tailor and that's why he's doing it. It's like, yeah, 129 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 3: that's not why he's pulling it down. We know what 130 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 3: he's looking for. Oh, these ghosts. I'm obsessed with this 131 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 3: whole idea of gay ghosts tell me some gay ghos, well, 132 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 3: a lot. 133 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 2: Of them that I find are. The way that I 134 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: find them is you take people who were known to 135 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 2: be gay and look for the hauntings. Like Truman Capoti 136 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: Tennessee Williams. They both haunt the same bar, even though 137 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 2: they pretty much disliked each other in life, but. 138 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 3: They both haunted together, Like do you think that they 139 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 3: are aware of each other? 140 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 2: I don't think so, because this is it's a bar 141 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 2: called Cafe Lafitte in exile in New Orleans, and Tennessee 142 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 2: Williams sits in his favorite spot at the bar, and 143 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: Truman Capote haunts the stairwell leading to the upstairs and 144 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: tries to strike up conversations with people, So they're in 145 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 2: two different areas of the building. Tennessee is not interacting 146 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 2: with anyone who's just looking distraught all the time, but 147 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 2: Truman is being himself and being the life of the 148 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 2: party and trying to chat people up the whole time. 149 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 3: So, but do you like he appears like full body 150 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 3: like people think it's actually Truman Capote and then he 151 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 3: disappears or what. 152 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: What I've heard? They just hear his voice, they don't 153 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 2: actually see him in the stairway. They just they can 154 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 2: hear him talking to them, and it's just a little 155 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: bit unnerving. 156 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can imagine. Oh my god, tell me, mor 157 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 3: tell me more, tell me. 158 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 2: May Well, gosh, I'm trying to think of. Oh, there's 159 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 2: a lot of celebrities from the past who have haunted 160 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 2: different places. The Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel is haunted. It's a 161 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: well known haunted location. 162 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 1: Classic. 163 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I cannot I don't know why, but for 164 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 2: some reason, I cannot remember the actor's name. 165 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: Montgomery Cliff. 166 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: Yes, he haunts the building because he rehearsed there for 167 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: a movie and people still hear him playing the trumpet 168 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 2: and complain thinking it's an actual living person. But that's 169 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 2: Montgomery Cliff still rehearsing the trumpet in his old hotel 170 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 2: room in there, and he was very very much closeted person. 171 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: So many people in that time period of Hollywood and 172 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 2: everything else like that. But then, yeah, there's James Whale. 173 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 2: He actually he's apparently I don't I he haunted his look. 174 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: He's the director of Frankenstein for those people who don't know, 175 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 2: but the original Frankenstein and Brida Frankenstein. He committed suicide 176 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: in his Pacific Palisades house in the pool, and the 177 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 2: one of the later owners had it filled in, but 178 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 2: actually the former the later owner, had an exorcism performed 179 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: to get rid of his ghost because she didn't like 180 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 2: having him around. Walt Whitman, the poet, He haunts one 181 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 2: of his favorite hiking spots in New York. Actually the 182 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: trail is called the Walt Women Trail, so it's pretty 183 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: easy to find him. And he actually spent a year 184 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: of his life trying to learn how to become a 185 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: psychic medium. He failed miserably, but he always found mediumship fascinating. 186 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 2: He actually had his head measured for phrenology by Fowler, 187 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 2: who pretty much invented phrenology, where you different parts of 188 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 2: your head mean different things, And he actually coined a 189 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: new term dealing with Walt Whitman called a massiveness, which 190 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 2: was basically, I'm trying to think of exactly how he 191 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 2: phrased it back in eighteen fifty, but it's a lack 192 00:13:54,240 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 2: of conjugal love and an avoidance of marriage, something along 193 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: those lines, but basically trying to say gay, right, but it's. 194 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 3: A long way to say, yeah, there's no pride called 195 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 3: lack of contumicult love and avoidance of marriage. 196 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 2: But yeah, and Harvey Milk was still a very well 197 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: known activist from the past. He actually was at his 198 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 2: camera shop when they were filming the movie Milk And 199 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 2: actually gust Vincente had said somewhere during an interview that 200 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: while they were recording one of the scenes, there was 201 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: someone walking around the background and it was getting annoying 202 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: because it was closed set. There wasn't supposed to be 203 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: anyone extra back there, and when someone finally bothered to 204 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 2: look closer to see who it was, it was Harvey 205 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 2: Milk standing in the background watching them film seen about 206 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 2: him a little bit of a narcissist, but I guess 207 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 2: that's okay. 208 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: Oh my god, Harvey. 209 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 3: Mike was probably like, I didn't wear that. 210 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: That's not how it went down. 211 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: Yes, definitely. 212 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: What about Liberaci's Ghost. 213 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 2: Yes, he well, unfortunately his restaurant is closed. It is. 214 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: Last I heard it was a Russian restaurant, but yeah, 215 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 2: it was originally called Liberacis Tivoli Gardens, then it became 216 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 2: Carluccio's for a long time. But yeah, he he has 217 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: hearted that bar. He liked to h the restaurant. I mean, 218 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: and they had the used to have a lot of 219 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: his costumes and instruments and everything all over the place, 220 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: a lot of memorabilia. He liked to lock women in 221 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 2: the women's restroom all the time. 222 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 3: Because he liked women. It's because he liked women, That's 223 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 3: why he did it. 224 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was his big claim too. So but yeah, 225 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: and people have seen glimpses of his sequent kate in 226 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 2: the building because he had secret entrances that he could 227 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 2: pop in and go to his piano and start playing 228 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: for people randomly whenever he felt like it. But then 229 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 2: he also is extremely easily upset by jokes, because there 230 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 2: was one incident where a bartender at the bar was 231 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 2: making a wise crack about Liberati being gay, and a 232 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: bottle of wine flew off the rack above her and 233 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 2: smashed right at her feet. So he was letting her 234 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 2: know that he really did not appreciate the humor of 235 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:52,119 Speaker 2: the joke. 236 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: The insinuation. Whatever do you mean? 237 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: Actually, Debbie Gibson and one time told a story on 238 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 3: the best TV show in history, Celebrity Ghost Stories, and 239 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 3: she somehow got her hands I can't remember the exact story, 240 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 3: but she like got Liberachi's piano and like has it 241 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 3: in her home and it's haunted. 242 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 2: Oh nice, Yeah, the one from the old restaurant. I 243 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 2: think so goes closed down too, And I know we 244 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 2: had more than one piano, and so it must have 245 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 2: come from one of those two places. 246 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 3: Have you ever seen that movie about him? 247 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: Yes? 248 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 2: I have. 249 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: I didn't know any of that stuff. That is wild. 250 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's his life was very interesting. He was a 251 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: very interesting person, and the people who came part of 252 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 2: his life were very interesting. But the one thing they 253 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: did kind of miss that I always liked was the 254 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 2: final days of his life were actually spent in his 255 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: bed with his dogs all piled on top of himself 256 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 2: and watching reruns of Golden Girls. Oh not a terrible 257 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: way to go out. 258 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,360 Speaker 1: Livarachi, rest in peace. That's amazing. 259 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 3: I I'm wondering now, also about our lesbian ghosts. What 260 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 3: kind of lesbian ghosts do you know about? 261 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 2: There are well, not so much in the famous, is 262 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 2: that okay? Yeah? But yeah, of course I have to 263 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: give equal treatment, and I try my best to cover 264 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: as many people as possible. There's uh, there's a kind 265 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 2: of famous but not so much famous over here. Story 266 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 2: of the Ladies of Langollen in Wales. It was these 267 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 2: two women in the late eighteen century, Susan and Sarah, 268 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 2: who one of whom was older and dressed as a 269 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: man all the time. But they originally they lived in 270 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 2: Ireland and they eloped together and fled Ireland and settled 271 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 2: in a little town in Wales called Langollen, and they 272 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 2: bought a house called plas naw It. It still exists 273 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 2: to this day as a historical museum. They lived there 274 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 2: their entire lives. They they were like celebrities, celebrities, local 275 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 2: celebrities really and they met They had different famous poets 276 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 2: as guests. They were very very popular among the locals. 277 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 2: But it was pretty much well known that they were 278 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 2: a lesbian couple, even though there have been some historical 279 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 2: accounts that have been trying to backpedal that a bit 280 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 2: that oh, it's a romantic friendship. That's no, they were lovers, 281 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 2: let's just get it flat. But they still haunt their 282 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 2: old house, especially around Christmas time. They're very friendly ghosts, 283 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: but they're still there. And there's also one story that 284 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: it's it's very controversial in a lot of ways, but 285 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: Lizzie Borden I will add her to the list because 286 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 2: there's there's a decent amount of evidence suggesting that she 287 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: wasn't straight. 288 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 3: Well, there was that movie I saw, was that Kristen Stewart. Yeah, 289 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 3: wasn't it like kind of lesbian heavy movie? 290 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 2: Yes, it was, And I know a lot of people 291 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 2: get upset by that. There's no there was. She was 292 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 2: just she was just a spinster basically kind of thing. 293 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: But no, she had a romantic relationship with an actress 294 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 2: named Nance O'Neill and that went horribly wrong along the way. 295 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 2: But there's good reason to believe that that is what 296 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 2: basically led to the split of her and her sister, 297 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 2: because Lizzie Borden and her sister had a huge blow 298 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 2: up fight around the time that Nance came over and 299 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 2: brought her actor and entourage with her, and the two 300 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 2: of them never spoke again for the rest of their lives. 301 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 2: So it must have been something very very very serious, 302 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 2: like coming out or something like that that led to 303 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: this whole split. And they actually died within a week 304 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 2: of each other. I think it was just a few 305 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: days after Lizzie died that her sister fell down the 306 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 2: steps and broke her neck. Wow. Yeah, but no, everyone 307 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 2: always focuses on the Ben and Breakfast, the Lizzieboard and 308 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: Ben Breakfast, where the murders happened, and all that. She 309 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 2: doesn't haunt there. She haunts the house that she had 310 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 2: after that, called Maplecroft, which she She was a very 311 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 2: rebellious woman in a lot of respects, and she did 312 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: one thing that victorians thought was well allegedly it. 313 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 3: Was never prettyellous, maybe the most rebellious thing a person can. 314 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 2: Do, but but no, she didn't care what other people 315 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 2: thought of her. And when she bought Maplecroft, she had 316 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 2: the name of the house chiseled into the front steps, 317 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 2: which you can still see today, and that was considered 318 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 2: by victorians to be extremely distasteful. But no, she was 319 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: a lover of poets and animals and music. And actually 320 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 2: I think it was thirty thousand dollars of the money 321 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 2: in her will went to the Fall River Animal Shelter, 322 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 2: and they still have information on their website about that 323 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 2: because basically that huge donation back in the nineteen thirties 324 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 2: has helped them still exist this very day. She believed 325 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 2: that animals were better than people, which in a lot 326 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 2: of times that's very much true. 327 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 3: Wait a minute, I'm realizing now that I actually don't 328 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,479 Speaker 3: know a lot about Lizzie Borden. 329 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: Didn't a lot of people. 330 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 3: So she didn't kill her parents, or she did kill 331 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 3: her parents, We don't know. Somebody actually kill her parents. 332 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 2: A question of debate. There are so many It's well, 333 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 2: there's always the Lizzie board and took an axe, give 334 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 2: her mother her father forty wax thing, But that was 335 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 2: that was actually a newspaper selling slogan. It never happened 336 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 2: that way exactly. But she was acquitted of the crime, 337 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: so she was never formally charged and convicted of murder. 338 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: And there's arguments to be made on both sides of 339 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 2: the story as to whether she actually did it or 340 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 2: someone else actually did it. So it's one of those 341 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: never to be solved mysteries pretty much at this point. 342 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: But her parents haunt that bed and breakfast, right. 343 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 2: Yes, And her step her father was not the most 344 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: wonderful person in the first place, not justifying murder or 345 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 2: anything like that, but he was. He was a rather stingy, 346 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 2: rotten person who just wasn't a pleasant person to live with. 347 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 2: And her stepmother wasn't the best person either, So I 348 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 2: can understand if she did commit it, commit the murders. 349 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 2: I can understand why in that type of environment something 350 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 2: that bad could happen. 351 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: But maybe it was somebody else. 352 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 2: There were other suspects. There was a someone believed to 353 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 2: be a serial killer in the area at the time 354 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 2: who could have committed it. There was stories that possibly 355 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 2: the maid doing it, who supposed that she was having 356 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 2: an affair with There were a lot of different rumors 357 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 2: going around that still still go around today that nobody 358 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 2: knows for sure. It's it's trying to solve one hundred 359 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 2: and fifty year old murder is a little bit challenging 360 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 2: these days because you don't have any physical evidence left, 361 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 2: you don't need. All you have is stories and everybody 362 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 2: makes up gossip about everybody else, So it's it's never 363 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 2: probably going to be solved one. 364 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 3: Oh, Lisey Borden. Now I feel bad for Lizzie Bording kinda. 365 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 3: I like that she has animals. 366 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 2: She was She was a very intelligent person, very unique person, 367 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 2: and she was a good soul in a lot of ways. 368 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 2: But nobody is ever one good and one or one 369 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 2: per evil. There's always some combination of the two. Everything 370 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 2: is somewhere in between. 371 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like, you know, I always talk about 372 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 3: theaters being haunted, and I love I love the I 373 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 3: love theaters, and I love the idea of haunted theaters, 374 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:47,719 Speaker 3: and they're also uh safe haven for queer people. And 375 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 3: there's always there's You can't have a theater without some 376 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 3: queer people up in there. So I imagine there's probably a 377 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 3: lot of haunted theaters by queer people, right. 378 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 2: Actually, yes, there are, there's. It's it's always tricky to 379 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 2: be sure because there's a lot of stories. Unless you 380 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 2: know for sure someone's personal history, it can be a 381 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 2: little bit difficult to find out for sure if it's 382 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: just really a case of gay ghost And that's that's 383 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 2: always my tricky point is I need to find some 384 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 2: kind of definitive evidence to back up what I find 385 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 2: in different ways. But I know that there is one 386 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: theater in England, the Queen's Theater. I don't even mean 387 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 2: that in the sense of irony or anything like that, 388 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 2: but the Queen's Theater is actually one of the one 389 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 2: of the many many hatted theaters in England, and it 390 00:27:54,600 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 2: does have some queer connections with it, with the hauntings 391 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 2: and everything like that as well. 392 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: It does. 393 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 2: They do believe that John Gielgul could be the one 394 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 2: of the ghosts at that particular place, even though he 395 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 2: had a theater directly next door to it. They believe 396 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 2: that he, uh the actor and director, maybe the man 397 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 2: in the gray suit that's seen wandering in that building there. 398 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: Hmmm. 399 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 3: Curious what about you know, gender nonconforming, transgender goes. 400 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: Do you encounter those? Ever? 401 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 2: That's always been the tricky one because I tend to 402 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 2: deal with stories from the distant past more often than 403 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 2: more recent. But and that's where it gets you have 404 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 2: to sort of understand the vernacular of the times. There 405 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 2: are some situations of cross stressing ghosts. 406 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it is interesting when you look into 407 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 3: trans history because you know, it wasn't it wasn't something 408 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 3: that people could just you know, do you can just 409 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 3: transition and just live your life. I mean, there are 410 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 3: some cases, but they're few and far between. Of course, 411 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 3: if you look at like different cultures, you know there's and. 412 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 2: For a long a long period of time and history, 413 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 2: just dressing in the opposite gender was literally a crime 414 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 2: that could bland you in jail, which is what There's 415 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 2: a lot of stories of people that I have uncovered 416 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 2: from spiritualism and all realms of the paranormal who were 417 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 2: gender non conforming in a lot of ways, and many, 418 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 2: many times were arrested for dressing in the wrong gender, 419 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 2: usually women dressing as men, which was especially frowned upon 420 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 2: because you're you're trying to imitate that the correct gender 421 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 2: and a lot of people's ideas. But but yeah, there 422 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 2: was a lot of cross stressing going on, and it's 423 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 2: it's it's always been a very difficult thing. And that's 424 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: what makes it difficult when you're dealing with the paranormal 425 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: and researching these people is you don't always know why 426 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 2: they're doing it. Is were they were they were they transgender, 427 00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 2: or were they just did they just enjoy thing of 428 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 2: the other gender. There's a there's a lot of a 429 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 2: lot of questions involved in a lot of that, and 430 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 2: I don't like to get to to bog down in 431 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 2: uh trying to translate it all. But but no, like 432 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 2: you were saying, with the cultures, there's there's always been 433 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 2: in every culture you can pretty much find, there's been 434 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 2: a history of people who dressed in opposite gendered clothing, 435 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 2: everything from Native American two spirits to over in India, 436 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 2: there were I don't want to pronounce it wrong, but 437 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 2: I think it's hero which is sort of a cultural 438 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 2: group of men who dress as women and take on 439 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 2: female gender roles. But there they were very highly regarded 440 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 2: for a very long time. They've become a little bit 441 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 2: less liked in recent years, but they still exist as 442 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 2: a culture of phenomena, and it's something that's always permeated everything. 443 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 2: And it used to have a lot more to do 444 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 2: with people who had these conflicting genders, for lack of 445 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 2: a better term, were usually thought of as important people. 446 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 2: They were the healers, they were the wise people of 447 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: the tribe. They were the sorcerers, they were the ones 448 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 2: that were more in touch with the spirits because they 449 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 2: could be both genders at the same time. So there 450 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 2: was a very spiritual significance to someone who walked the 451 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 2: line between genders like that. 452 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: My personal opinion that still holds up. 453 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely what And I think a lot of 454 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 2: it has to do with the fact that people in 455 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: the entire queer spectrum, you live on the edge of 456 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 2: the society you're in in a lot of respects, so 457 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 2: you're more observant of everything than the average person walking 458 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: down the street with a single gender and straight heterosexual 459 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 2: orientation who just goes about average everyday life. You realize 460 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 2: your own differences and so you have your own internal struggles, 461 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: But then you also are more observant of the people 462 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 2: around you and how they interact with things, because you're 463 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 2: trying to both see where you fit into society as 464 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 2: well as how to navigate that society as best as possible. 465 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 3: So, I mean, I also think that it probably has 466 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 3: to do with the time you live in and the 467 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 3: location that you live in. But I also think that 468 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 3: there's a lot of survival technique, that survival instincts that 469 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 3: you develop both for your own safety and for finding 470 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,439 Speaker 3: your own community or finding lovers or whatever you have 471 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 3: to have, Like when people say gay dar or whatever, like, 472 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 3: I do think that there actually is something to that 473 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 3: that that could be also going along with being intuitive, 474 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 3: being psychic, whatever. 475 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 2: Exactly that's and that that's why there's a lot of gays, lesbians, bisexual, 476 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 2: transgenders in psychic world and involved in any kind of 477 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 2: spiritual beliefs that involve the afterlife and all that. There 478 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: are a lot of gay psychics out there. There are always. 479 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 3: Have been place the Cyrus Rex House I was reading 480 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 3: about on your website. 481 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,439 Speaker 1: I didn't know about this. Can you tell us about that? 482 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:12,399 Speaker 2: Oh, yes, Cyrus Rex. The town was named after him, 483 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 2: rex Mont, Pennsylvania. He basically ran this little company town. 484 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 2: And yeah, he lived in old brick house in what's 485 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 2: left of Rexmont, which is not there's not even a 486 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 2: stop sign in the side in the town. It's basically 487 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 2: non existent anymore. But there was a female spirit observed 488 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 2: by later owners of the house, and for one reason 489 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 2: or another, they thought that maybe it was his niece 490 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,879 Speaker 2: who had lived with him for a while. But there's 491 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 2: there was a growing belief among at least one of 492 00:35:55,520 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 2: the owners that it was actually Cyrus himself, dressing in 493 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 2: women's clothing who was haunting the building dressed as a woman, 494 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 2: which actually is not that uncommon because the Rosencrown Guest 495 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 2: House in Provincetown is also haunted by a man dressed 496 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,280 Speaker 2: as a woman who was the former owner of that building. 497 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 2: He was the gay rights activist. He was an AIDS activist. 498 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 2: He passed away of AIDS, but he always dressed in 499 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 2: a white bride's costume for Carnival every year there and 500 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 2: they still see him in the hallways, specifically in the library, 501 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,919 Speaker 2: dressed in a white dress. So there's quite a few 502 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 2: cross guessing dressing ghosts. I actually found another old story 503 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 2: from the nineteen fifties of a couple in California who 504 00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:01,720 Speaker 2: bought antique furniture from England and there was a ghost 505 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 2: that came with it. Of I think he might have 506 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 2: been a page or someone's assistant or servant or something 507 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 2: like that, but repeatedly at night he would try on 508 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 2: the woman's clothing that she had sitting out for the 509 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 2: next day, so he even was attempting to cross dress 510 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 2: in the after life. Wow. 511 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: See. 512 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 3: And that kind of goes along with some people theorize 513 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 3: that in some circumstances, when you're a ghost, you can 514 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 3: choose to be your best self or your happiest self, 515 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 3: or however you want to be. You know, when people 516 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 3: say stuff like that, or it's like you can go 517 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 3: back to being younger, even though you died when you 518 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 3: were ninety, but you haunt as a twenty year old 519 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 3: or whatever. You know, it's kind of that thing. 520 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 2: I think a lot of that has to do with mentally, 521 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,919 Speaker 2: to go with what makes you happiest which is what 522 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 2: I think a lot of us should be living our 523 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 2: normal lives as doing and living the way that makes 524 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,319 Speaker 2: us happy, not the way that everyone else thinks we 525 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 2: should be happy. 526 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,879 Speaker 3: Right, And I imagine at a time when you can 527 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 3: openly be trans or just you know, explore your gender publicly, 528 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 3: those moments in quiet at home at night or whatever, 529 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 3: we're probably some of your happiest moments, your most authentic moments. Yes, 530 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 3: what about haunted queer spaces like gay bars and stuff 531 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,359 Speaker 3: like that. I feel like every once in a while 532 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 3: I'll hear about like a haunted gay bar. 533 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 2: There are surprisingly a lot of them. What is difficult now, though, 534 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 2: is so many queer spaces are closing, not just because 535 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 2: of the pandemic and. 536 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 4: COVID, but because there's sort of a cultural shift in 537 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 4: society away from these institutions that some of us. 538 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 1: Say grind. 539 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,280 Speaker 3: Grinder has taken away the gay bar. 540 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 2: Blame it all on social media and apps. Yes, yeah, 541 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 2: but no, but there are a lot of I actually 542 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,479 Speaker 2: worked at a haunted gay bar some twenty years ago. 543 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 2: Everyone knows, everyone in the area knows that I'm a 544 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 2: paranormal investigator. So anytime I go anywhere at some point, 545 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 2: I'm going to ask if the place is haunted. And yeah, 546 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 2: there was a bar in Akron, Ohio called Cocktails. The 547 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:46,919 Speaker 2: building has been torn down since and relocated, but yeah, 548 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 2: I happened to ask if it was haunted. And turns 549 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 2: out that there was a female patron who was a 550 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 2: regular even before it was a gay bar, and she 551 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 2: was a well known heavy drinker. And one night, the 552 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 2: front door used to face directly out into the main street. 553 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 2: She was especially drunk. She lived across the street, down 554 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 2: a few streets. She walked out the front door and 555 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 2: right into oncoming traffic and was hitting killed. And her 556 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 2: ghosts still lingered around that building. You would catch glimpses 557 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 2: of her. You would strange things would happen, and I 558 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 2: remember I was talking. I told all the other bartenders 559 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 2: about it, and the owner was a strong disbeliever and 560 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 2: ghost so he never wanted to hear anything about it. 561 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 2: But one of the other bartenders who I worked with 562 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 2: one day when I came in for the afternoon shift, 563 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 2: he said, I have to tell you about this because 564 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 2: I know you're the only person who will believe me. 565 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 2: And I don't know what happened, he said. I was 566 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,439 Speaker 2: closing up last night, and there was an upstairs bar 567 00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,399 Speaker 2: and then a lower bar, and a staircase that led 568 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 2: down facing away from the main bar, and he was 569 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 2: counting out the money on the like two thirty three 570 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,240 Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, and a crumpled up napkin flew 571 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 2: down the stairs, and he thought, that's strange, but maybe 572 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 2: the wind caught something. Just brush it off, pretend like 573 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 2: it didn't happen, goes back to counting the money, and 574 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,399 Speaker 2: ten minutes later, another crumpled up napkin comes flying down 575 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 2: the stairs, rolled up in a ball. He freaked out immediately, 576 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 2: he left the money where it was, didn't even set 577 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 2: the alarm, just locked the door behind him and ran 578 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,840 Speaker 2: out of the building and left. So the owner was 579 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 2: very upset with him the next day for not setting 580 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 2: the alarm and leaving money out like that. But he 581 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 2: was just terrified of whatever it was that was there, 582 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 2: that was trying to let him know that something, something 583 00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 2: was there and needed some attention from him. 584 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,399 Speaker 3: Well, you know, another theory that some people have is 585 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 3: like just the energy, the collective energy of a lot 586 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 3: of people, people being happy, people being sad, people being drunk, 587 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 3: chaos fighting, whatever, all of that can linger around and 588 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,279 Speaker 3: can not manifest into move and shit around a bar. 589 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of well, there's 590 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:34,319 Speaker 2: even cases of very very very very old gay bars, 591 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 2: Like in England, there's the Molly houses that they used 592 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 2: to have back in the eighteenth century. Usually it was 593 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 2: a woman who ran the establishment for those like us, 594 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,760 Speaker 2: and she was referred to as mother, very very drag 595 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 2: appropriate name. But no, there was a famous raid that 596 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 2: took place on one of these molly houses, and there 597 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 2: is still a ghost story attached to that that people 598 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 2: could still hear the crowd fleeing for their lives from 599 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,280 Speaker 2: the police from that location, running down the same street 600 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 2: that had happened on some two hundred and fifty three 601 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 2: hundred years ago. One of my favorite stories that I 602 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 2: have come across is it was documented in a book 603 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 2: by a former famous researcher named Nanderfodor. He was a psychologist, 604 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 2: psychiatrist and a paranormal investigator back in the nineteen thirties 605 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 2: and forties, and he had a friend who was a 606 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 2: lesbian and he wrote about her in his book and 607 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 2: basically for the nineteen forties when the book came out 608 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,720 Speaker 2: for someone to basically say that there's absolutely nothing wrong 609 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 2: with anyone's sexuality is quite remarkable and it's so. But 610 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 2: he said that this woman that was his good friend 611 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 2: had a lover who passed away and took her a 612 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 2: long time to get over her grief, but she finally did, 613 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 2: and she met another woman and set up an appointment 614 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 2: in a New York hotel room for an evening together 615 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 2: in private, and just when they were getting intimate in bed, 616 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,279 Speaker 2: the phone started ringing and it kept ringing, and it 617 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 2: rang non stop, and it was so constant that the 618 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 2: girl she was with got very uncomfortable and left in 619 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 2: a hurry. The next morning, she went downstairs and berated 620 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,320 Speaker 2: the clerk, talking about how I will have your job. 621 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 2: That was horrible of you to do, and just going 622 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 2: on about and he said, I'm sorry, I didn't mean 623 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,759 Speaker 2: to disturb you or anything. But the person on the 624 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,239 Speaker 2: phone said it was an emergent. Didn't see and so 625 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 2: she got she got the phone number. It was a 626 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 2: California number, and that's when she remembered that she knew 627 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 2: a psychic out in California that she had spoken to 628 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 2: when she was trying to get in contact with her 629 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:20,680 Speaker 2: dead lover. So she called up the psychic said, what 630 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 2: was so important that you had to call me in 631 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,839 Speaker 2: the middle of the night in New York about And 632 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 2: she said, I'm sorry about this, but your lover came 633 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 2: to me and demanded that I call you immediately because 634 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,360 Speaker 2: she had a message for you. And she said, what 635 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 2: was the message? And she said, your lover said, I'm 636 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:49,440 Speaker 2: extremely disappointed in you. So her dead lover did not 637 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 2: like the fact that she was moving on with another 638 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 2: woman and wanted to let her know that she was 639 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,800 Speaker 2: disapproving of the new girl. 640 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 3: Damn that is that's like psychic Jerry Springer. 641 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 1: Yes, oh my god. 642 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 3: Well you also had mentioned to me in an email 643 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 3: about lesbian lesbians that were abducted by aliens. 644 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,200 Speaker 1: Yes, what is the book? 645 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,879 Speaker 2: The book was actually also written by a gay man 646 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 2: and a straight woman. The book is called The Tahunga 647 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 2: Canyon Contact. 648 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,839 Speaker 3: Wait, I actually I have looked into this before, but 649 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:38,759 Speaker 3: remind me, remind me. 650 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, between I want to say nineteen fifty and nineteen 651 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 2: eighty or so, there was. It started out with a 652 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 2: lesbian couple that experienced something akin to an alien abduction, 653 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,239 Speaker 2: and the Tohunga came in California, and it wasn't until 654 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 2: they went through regression that they started understanding what had 655 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:15,719 Speaker 2: happened to them. And then friends of theirs started experiencing 656 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 2: similar phenomena, and there ended up being about six women total, 657 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 2: some of whom were gay, some straight, some questioning or bisexual, 658 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 2: who were all connected together who were having strange experiences 659 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:39,120 Speaker 2: with abductee reports and strange phenomena and missing time and 660 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:44,640 Speaker 2: all of these very very bizarre experiences with it. And yeah, 661 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,560 Speaker 2: it was chronicled in a book by d. Scott Rogo 662 00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:53,960 Speaker 2: and and Ruffel. D Scott Rogo was actually a paranormal investigator, 663 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 2: very prolific paranormal investigator in the nineteen eighties. He was very, 664 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,920 Speaker 2: very famous in his time. He wrote like thirty books 665 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,440 Speaker 2: in his short life because he was murdered in a 666 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:12,239 Speaker 2: possible hate crime in nineteen ninety in his home in California. 667 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:17,680 Speaker 2: So it's a lot of weird stuff out there. Yeah. 668 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,040 Speaker 3: Well, another thing I was reading on your website is 669 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:28,200 Speaker 3: a part about abductions, and it says that they interviewed 670 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 3: some people and they found a pretty high number of 671 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 3: LGBTQ people have been abducted. 672 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:41,880 Speaker 2: Yes, and that's given the fact that the UFO community 673 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:47,000 Speaker 2: is on the conservative side, there's a lot of pushback 674 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 2: against that. But there was a dettailed book written by 675 00:48:52,520 --> 00:49:00,239 Speaker 2: three authors I believe it's called The Abduction Enigma. They 676 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:06,480 Speaker 2: delved into sexuality when it comes to abduction reports, even 677 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,799 Speaker 2: though they said that it's very difficult to know for 678 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:14,279 Speaker 2: sure because so often sexuality is completely overlooked in documenting 679 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:18,719 Speaker 2: any form of abduction reports or phenomena and all of that, 680 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,480 Speaker 2: but they said through their own research that there have 681 00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 2: been they have discovered that there is a higher than 682 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:32,480 Speaker 2: expected degree of people who are either hyper sexual or 683 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:41,480 Speaker 2: LGBTQ who experience abduction phenomena compared to the normal, straight, 684 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,640 Speaker 2: heterosexual average people. 685 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:51,000 Speaker 3: Now, are these reports of people that are also having 686 00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:59,000 Speaker 3: some kind of sexual activity when they get abducted, like with. 687 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:01,680 Speaker 2: Shin, why are we not no. 688 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 3: Why are they trying to get people that are hyper 689 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:11,080 Speaker 3: sexual and LGBTQ, And well, it's a good question. 690 00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:15,400 Speaker 2: It depends entirely on what exactly is happening with with 691 00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,600 Speaker 2: why abduction cases are happening in the first place, which 692 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,880 Speaker 2: is still a big, a big question mark right there. 693 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:26,800 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's it's interesting in a lot of ways. 694 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,759 Speaker 2: But if you're if you're looking to learn about a 695 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:36,520 Speaker 2: species in general, you would want to sample all the outliers, 696 00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 2: not just the most common ones. You would want to 697 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,520 Speaker 2: see the entire range of diversity. So if if it 698 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:51,000 Speaker 2: is like a a if it ends up being something 699 00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,840 Speaker 2: where it is like beings from a different dimension or 700 00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:59,440 Speaker 2: planet or something like that, investigating human species, it would 701 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,399 Speaker 2: make sense that they would want to find out all 702 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,799 Speaker 2: the possibilities of humans and all the different types of 703 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:12,520 Speaker 2: humans and all the the different variations of the species 704 00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:13,480 Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. 705 00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 3: Well, if there's still I mean, this book was written 706 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,400 Speaker 3: in nineteen eety nine, but if they're still looking for 707 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,600 Speaker 3: queer people, I am here. I am so down to 708 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:27,120 Speaker 3: get taken up. Can you imagine what that would do 709 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,960 Speaker 3: for my podcast? Yeah, to come back down and tell 710 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:31,680 Speaker 3: some stories. 711 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you would. There's probably be a few book deals 712 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:36,319 Speaker 2: in it. 713 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,360 Speaker 1: Too, just like a nice vacation for a while. 714 00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all as just not a metal counter that 715 00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:45,479 Speaker 2: you have to lay on. 716 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,640 Speaker 3: Right, Honestly, I'm fine with it at this point, just 717 00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,120 Speaker 3: to get out of here for a little bit. 718 00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:51,280 Speaker 1: I'm down. 719 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:53,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 720 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,759 Speaker 3: Wait, so I guess we should also I should ask 721 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,880 Speaker 3: you if there's bisexual ghosts that you encounter. 722 00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,960 Speaker 2: Yes, That's where it gets a little bit complicated because 723 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:10,480 Speaker 2: there's always the question of, well, there's always been controversy 724 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:14,239 Speaker 2: with our bisexual people, just people who can't make up 725 00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:18,120 Speaker 2: their minds and they're just in denial. 726 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:23,080 Speaker 3: Well especially I'm sure you'll you'll find historical, uh, you know, 727 00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:28,760 Speaker 3: evidence of a straight couple and the husband has affairs 728 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:30,920 Speaker 3: with men, and then people might say, oh, well that 729 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,799 Speaker 3: he's gay, but he could have been bisexual, like who know, 730 00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,400 Speaker 3: who really knows exactly? 731 00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:40,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's that's where it becomes a bit difficult, 732 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:47,879 Speaker 2: because who's to say that someone is gay when they 733 00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:53,240 Speaker 2: could have been bisexual? Even I mean, Vincent Price's daughter 734 00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:59,520 Speaker 2: said that she believed that he was bisexual, and that's 735 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,640 Speaker 2: still a controversial thing, even though his daughter said that. 736 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,280 Speaker 2: But but yeah, there's but there's a lot of things 737 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,360 Speaker 2: where it's it's difficult to say for sure if someone 738 00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,360 Speaker 2: is technically bisexual or if they were full fledged k. 739 00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,480 Speaker 1: Does Vincent Price haunt someplace? Because I'm obsessed with Vincent Price. 740 00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:21,560 Speaker 2: I wish he did. I know that he had a 741 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:31,480 Speaker 2: very prone, profound paranormal experience when a friend of his 742 00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:36,040 Speaker 2: passed away. But no, he was on a plane at 743 00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:43,120 Speaker 2: the time of this actor's death and there was sort 744 00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,680 Speaker 2: of a strange light in the sky out his window 745 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,080 Speaker 2: and he looked out and in the clouds he could 746 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:54,080 Speaker 2: see the words that so and so is dead, and 747 00:53:54,120 --> 00:54:00,160 Speaker 2: he thought, that's just weird. And he landed, and not 748 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:04,040 Speaker 2: not an hour after landing, he got the news that 749 00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,000 Speaker 2: while he was on that flight, his friend had passed away. 750 00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:13,120 Speaker 3: He also recorded an album. Do you know the album 751 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,719 Speaker 3: that he recorded about witchcraft and Satanism. 752 00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:21,719 Speaker 2: He recorded a couple of different things he I know, 753 00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,480 Speaker 2: I don't know if it was from that album or not, 754 00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:28,799 Speaker 2: but he recorded a a reading of I don't know 755 00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,080 Speaker 2: what he was reading, but it was about how to 756 00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,680 Speaker 2: see ghosts or sure they bring them to you. 757 00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:35,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 758 00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:40,040 Speaker 2: So, but yeah, he's he was very much into very 759 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,839 Speaker 2: creepy things. He had a lot of gay friends too. 760 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:47,840 Speaker 2: There was a very famous gay Hollywood couple that lived 761 00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:53,440 Speaker 2: directly across the street from them. So he was extremely 762 00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:58,239 Speaker 2: open with sexuality. And his daughter is a lesbian and 763 00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,120 Speaker 2: she said he was fully accepting of her when when 764 00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:06,359 Speaker 2: she came out to him. Wow, And supposedly that's when 765 00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:12,680 Speaker 2: he admitted that he had experienced relationships with men in 766 00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:13,560 Speaker 2: his life as well. 767 00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,759 Speaker 1: Okay, Wall, we should probably wrap it up soon. 768 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:21,920 Speaker 3: But one of my favorite I think, I mean, I 769 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,719 Speaker 3: never like to say my favorite, but one of my 770 00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,719 Speaker 3: favorite haunted places is this place in San Diego called 771 00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:33,560 Speaker 3: Villa Montezuma. Yes, that place is so cool, and it 772 00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:37,800 Speaker 3: is haunted by this man who was very queer. 773 00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:43,160 Speaker 2: Jesse Shephard, also known as Francis Grierson. Yes, when he 774 00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:50,960 Speaker 2: was a writer, he was a psychic pianist, so he 775 00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,640 Speaker 2: but he didn't like living as a psychic, even though 776 00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:59,600 Speaker 2: the spiritualist community out there built this amazing Queen Anne 777 00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:05,040 Speaker 2: Victoria House for him, that the ice. I would love 778 00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,600 Speaker 2: to go inside it. I've only been on the outside myself, 779 00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:09,239 Speaker 2: but I would love to go inside it just to 780 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:14,239 Speaker 2: see the stained glass window of Sappho that he has there. 781 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:20,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, apparently up sometime, I've never gotten to go inside either. 782 00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:27,040 Speaker 2: But yeah, but no, he was. He was a psychic. 783 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,680 Speaker 2: He could channel different spirits, he could channel composers. 784 00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:32,279 Speaker 1: He was. 785 00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,440 Speaker 2: He made a good living doing that, but he decided 786 00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:37,520 Speaker 2: he didn't want to be known as a psychic, so 787 00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:39,360 Speaker 2: he wanted to be known as a musician. So he 788 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:43,640 Speaker 2: went off to Europe, failed miserably as trying to just 789 00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:47,640 Speaker 2: be a regular musician and an author, and came back 790 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:52,880 Speaker 2: to San Diego dirt poor. And it was actually during 791 00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:57,520 Speaker 2: his performance for he was doing a fundraiser just to 792 00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,200 Speaker 2: get enough money to try and keep alive in basic life. 793 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,280 Speaker 2: He held a concert as a fundraiser and he played 794 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:09,520 Speaker 2: the final song and stopped and bowed his head at 795 00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:13,759 Speaker 2: the keyboard, and everyone applauded, and then they stopped and 796 00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:17,040 Speaker 2: he didn't move, and that's when they realized that he 797 00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:20,720 Speaker 2: had died right after playing the final notes of that song. 798 00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:28,760 Speaker 2: But he had a male secretary who well, yeah, I've 799 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,280 Speaker 2: had a few people complained to me and say, no, 800 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:34,880 Speaker 2: they were not lovers. They were just business partners. 801 00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,400 Speaker 3: I've had a female secretary as myself. 802 00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:43,040 Speaker 2: He traveled with him everywhere. They were an inseparable couple. 803 00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:46,919 Speaker 2: There was it was not just just the boss, that's all. 804 00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,760 Speaker 2: But no, and he he haunts he's supposed to haunt 805 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,400 Speaker 2: that building. There was a cat that there was a 806 00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,160 Speaker 2: fire at the building at one time. There was a cat, 807 00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:01,520 Speaker 2: I want to say that was found in the that 808 00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:06,640 Speaker 2: they named Psyche and they believed that that cat actually 809 00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:12,960 Speaker 2: was the reincarnation of Shepherd himself if I remember correctly. 810 00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,960 Speaker 1: Too cool, But there has to be a movie about its. 811 00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,040 Speaker 2: Been shut down for so long. Even when I went 812 00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,160 Speaker 2: there back in two thousand and nine, I could only 813 00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,000 Speaker 2: see the outside of the building, but it was so frustrating. 814 00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:27,280 Speaker 1: Ken, this has been great. 815 00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:32,240 Speaker 3: You are a lovely storyteller and I love hearing these stories. 816 00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:34,560 Speaker 3: Can you tell people where to get your book and 817 00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:37,160 Speaker 3: find it and all that stuff? 818 00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:43,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yes. My book from two thousand and nine, so 819 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:47,280 Speaker 2: it's been a while, Queer Hauntings True Tales of Gay 820 00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,560 Speaker 2: Lesbian Ghosts was published by Leafy Press and it's still 821 00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:56,080 Speaker 2: available through Leafy Press, but also anywhere books are sold, 822 00:58:56,240 --> 00:59:03,440 Speaker 2: Barnes and Noble, Amazon, you name it. I hopefully fingers 823 00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:08,320 Speaker 2: crossed and my agent, Sanity at Sake, will be having 824 00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:12,680 Speaker 2: a new book coming out, tentatively titled Weirdly Queer, which 825 00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:17,000 Speaker 2: is going to tackle the history of all paranormal phenomena 826 00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:24,840 Speaker 2: related to LGBTQ perspectives. You can visit my website Moonspenders 827 00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:28,960 Speaker 2: dot com or do a search for queer paranormal and 828 00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:33,480 Speaker 2: that will come up first. I have some information on there, 829 00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:35,960 Speaker 2: not a whole lot, because I'm holding back on a 830 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:40,200 Speaker 2: lot of it and I haven't had much time to 831 00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,960 Speaker 2: digest everything into a smaller form to post on the 832 00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:46,680 Speaker 2: website recently. But as time goes on, I'm going to 833 00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:49,240 Speaker 2: be adding a lot more to do with everything from 834 00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:57,720 Speaker 2: updated ghost stories to voodoo and Santa Ria and witchcraft, 835 00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:01,920 Speaker 2: the history of witchcraft, and sexuality and you name it, really, 836 01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:05,480 Speaker 2: because there's so much fascinating stuff out there with weirdness 837 01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:10,800 Speaker 2: and queerness combining into one. Yeah, and I have a 838 01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,880 Speaker 2: few possible other projects coming on the horizon, but I 839 01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,200 Speaker 2: don't know anything for sure, so I can't really say 840 01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:21,080 Speaker 2: much about that. But yeah, and you can also since 841 01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:27,680 Speaker 2: you interviewed Greg and Dana Nwkirk, you can find some 842 01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:31,439 Speaker 2: of my past writings on their Week and Weird website. 843 01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:35,400 Speaker 2: I used to write a bit of more humorous perspective 844 01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:37,480 Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, but I have some old 845 01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:41,880 Speaker 2: queer stories on there as well about ghosts and strange 846 01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:45,800 Speaker 2: news stories and all sorts of weirdness on there too. 847 01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:46,600 Speaker 1: Cool. 848 01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:52,840 Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much, and I hope we can 849 01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:59,880 Speaker 3: talk again sometime. Thank you so much. To Ken, I 850 01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:04,320 Speaker 3: hope you have a lovely Pride month. As we go 851 01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,560 Speaker 3: on into Pride Month, I think it is so important 852 01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:10,440 Speaker 3: that we honor the people that came before us. 853 01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:11,800 Speaker 1: So often their. 854 01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:19,000 Speaker 3: Stories get erased or revised, and I'm very happy to 855 01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:24,800 Speaker 3: be LGBTQ, very proud, be proud of who you are. 856 01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,360 Speaker 3: You know something else I forgot to tell you about 857 01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:33,880 Speaker 3: last week's episode with Sapphire Sandalo. We ended up getting 858 01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:37,240 Speaker 3: on video and you can watch the full video version 859 01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:40,760 Speaker 3: of that episode on YouTube, which is something else that 860 01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:43,120 Speaker 3: will be happening more and more and more, So look 861 01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:44,280 Speaker 3: out for that. 862 01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:46,480 Speaker 1: Guys. 863 01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:49,000 Speaker 3: Please be subscribed to the show and tell your friends, 864 01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:52,800 Speaker 3: tweet about it, post about it. Rate at five stars 865 01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,520 Speaker 3: wherever you can. I definitely want to be reading more 866 01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:59,240 Speaker 3: ghost stories on the pod, so please send me some 867 01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:03,840 Speaker 3: relatively short ghost stories in a five star review, or 868 01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,800 Speaker 3: just email me at ghosted by Roz at gmail dot com. 869 01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:13,760 Speaker 3: I'm on Instagram at Roz Hernandez TikTok and Twitter at 870 01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:18,040 Speaker 3: It's Roz Hernandez. And next week you will hear me 871 01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:22,000 Speaker 3: and Patton Oswalt and Meredith Salander. 872 01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:29,520 Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's crazy. I love you all, both 873 01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,040 Speaker 1: living and dead. But if I didn't ask you to 874 01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:33,840 Speaker 1: haunt me. Don't haunt me. 875 01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:35,080 Speaker 2: Came back 876 01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:50,200 Speaker 1: Star, a podcast network,