Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Save You production of iHeartRadio, I'm Any.
Speaker 2: And I'm Lorn vocal Bam, and today we have an
Speaker 2: episode for you about Kevin Bert.
Speaker 1: Yes, was there any particular reason this was on your mind? Lauren?
Speaker 3: Nope, I think I was.
Speaker 2: We hadn't done a cheese episode in a minute, and
Speaker 2: we love doing cheese episodes, and this was one of
Speaker 2: the ones that we have not done before, and I
Speaker 2: love it. I think I purchased some for a cheese
Speaker 2: played a couple months ago, and you know, why not?
Speaker 1: Why not? We do love our cheese episodes. It's funny
Speaker 1: to me how many times we do them, and somehow
Speaker 1: there's still billion much to talk about with the specific
Speaker 1: cheese and all other cheeses. But yeah, this one we
Speaker 1: were discussing before we started recording. How to a lot
Speaker 1: written about it, a lot of reading today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was one of the ones where I was like, well,
Speaker 2: I could keep reading about Canon beer for another couple
Speaker 2: of days, but I don't have that kind of time,
Speaker 2: So I'm going to I'm going to stop. I'm going
Speaker 2: to assume that what I have written down in my
Speaker 2: notes already is accurate enough for podcast work.
Speaker 3: Yes, but it continue.
Speaker 1: If you want to learn more and you're somebody who's
Speaker 1: more an expert than us, oh yeah, there's plenty more
Speaker 1: out there for you.
Speaker 2: Yes, if you want to dive deep into the microbiology
Speaker 2: of Canon Bear, you can.
Speaker 1: You can, and we would love to hear from you
Speaker 1: after you do. I know I've had camm beer. I
Speaker 1: feel like this's impossible. I wouldn't have had it, but
Speaker 1: I can't recall. I do love Brie, and Brie and
Speaker 1: Cam and Bear are often put in the same conversation.
Speaker 1: So I am determined to get it. I looked for it.
Speaker 1: My local grocery store didn't have it, so I'm gonna
Speaker 1: have to I'm gonna have to branch out, but I
Speaker 1: am determined. We also talked about how we both got
Speaker 1: cravings just when we were discussing the topic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, every single helpful photo on a website just really
Speaker 2: increased the craving.
Speaker 3: I was like, oh no, oh dear.
Speaker 1: It was bad. That was before we even chose it.
Speaker 1: It was just one of the possibilities. Here we are. Well,
Speaker 1: you can see our past cheese episodes for more, maybe
Speaker 1: specifically Breede, but all of them. All of them are
Speaker 1: in the mix. Sure, and that brings us to our question,
Speaker 1: camm bert, what is it?
Speaker 2: Well, Well, Camembert is a type of soft cheese made
Speaker 2: from cow milk with a bloomy white rind that's sort
Speaker 2: of toothsome tender, and a creamy yellow interior that's basically
Speaker 2: just melting at room temperature. Its flavor is savory and
Speaker 2: a little buttery, fruity and a little funky sharp, like
Speaker 2: mushrooms and earth and must It comes in small wheels
Speaker 2: just about five inches across and a couple inches high.
Speaker 2: That's maybe twelve by five centimeters, weighing just about nine
Speaker 2: ounces or two hundred and fifty grams. Traditionally wrapped in
Speaker 2: coated paper and then packaged into a pressed wood box,
Speaker 2: often in a cylinder shape to match the cheese. It's
Speaker 2: most often served as is as a table cheese, like
Speaker 2: in a cheeseplate sort of situation. You know, maybe some
Speaker 2: bread or crackers and other accompaniments like fruit, nuts, pickled veg.
Speaker 3: What have you.
Speaker 2: But you can bake it with seasonings like herbs, spices,
Speaker 2: or maybe jams or honey to make it even more
Speaker 2: tempting and guey, or use it on sandwiches, or maybe
Speaker 2: to make like a cheesy sauce for pasta or vegetables
Speaker 2: or whatever you want to put a cheese sauce on,
Speaker 2: which is everything probably right right, Yep, it's really good
Speaker 2: if you enjoy slightly funky cheeses. Camm Beert is like
Speaker 2: it's like if you could take a stone from a
Speaker 2: cellar and make it just buttery, spreadable.
Speaker 1: I like that. I do really like that kind of mushroomy,
Speaker 1: earthy taste and cheese. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Oh it's so.
Speaker 1: Good m hm.
Speaker 3: But okay.
Speaker 2: The term canon Beert can be applied to cheese is
Speaker 2: made in the style anywhere by anyone in pretty much anyway.
Speaker 2: But there is a protected designation of origin for cam
Speaker 2: and Beert that has made tradition only in Normandy, France,
Speaker 2: which is where the cheese is from. A true Camembert
Speaker 2: de Normandy and that is what will be on the
Speaker 2: label has to be made in one of four regions
Speaker 2: in Normandy where they have the right grassland for the cows.
Speaker 2: The cow herds have to be at least half made
Speaker 2: up of the Normandy breed, which has been bread for
Speaker 2: milk production. Like it's a little bit higher in protein
Speaker 2: than usual, super tasty. There are regulations about how the
Speaker 2: cows must be grazed and fed, like eighty percent of
Speaker 2: their food has to come from the farm that they
Speaker 2: live on. They have to feeld grays for over six
Speaker 2: months a year. The milk obtained is kept raw, that
Speaker 2: is unpasteurized. And yes, that means that any Camumbert that
Speaker 2: you have had in the United States is not de
Speaker 2: normandy because we've got a ban on import of raw
Speaker 2: milk cheeses here.
Speaker 3: But anyway, there's regret here.
Speaker 2: But anyway, once that cow is milked for the Camumbert
Speaker 2: de normandy, you've got seventy two hours to make the
Speaker 2: milk into a.
Speaker 3: Cheese that is ready to be matured.
Speaker 2: And cheese very basically is what we do to milk
Speaker 2: to preserve it and make it fun. And we do
Speaker 2: this by getting a lot of the water out in
Speaker 2: this case, not like too much water, So okay, you
Speaker 2: start by getting the nutritious and tasty stuff and milk,
Speaker 2: that is, the fats and the proteins to clump together,
Speaker 2: and these will be your curds. Camembert is curdled using renent,
Speaker 2: which is an animal protein that occurs in calves that
Speaker 2: helps them digest milk. And you've also got a boost
Speaker 2: here from naturally occurring lactic acid bacteria that are just
Speaker 2: hanging out I mean in the dairy, but also all
Speaker 2: around us, all the time, everywhere. Together, rennet and lactic
Speaker 2: acid bacteria change the pH of the milk, making it
Speaker 2: more acidic, which makes it curdle, leaving you with solid
Speaker 2: curds and liquid whey. The curds are cut and scooped
Speaker 2: out of the way and layered into these small individual moles,
Speaker 2: gently being allowed to drain for a bit between each
Speaker 2: layer to get more way out.
Speaker 3: They're not pressed.
Speaker 2: Into the molds as many cheeses are, but rather like
Speaker 2: allowed to drain slowly, mostly under their own weight, for
Speaker 2: at least eighteen hours, and that gentle treatment helps preserve
Speaker 2: the moisture levels and the soft texture of the kurds.
Speaker 2: Once they're firm enough, they're turned out of the molds
Speaker 2: and moved to a drying room, where they're turned once
Speaker 2: over a period of time to distribute the inner moisture
Speaker 2: level and allow the whole surface to dry out, and
Speaker 2: then they're moved to a maturing room, sometimes in a
Speaker 2: whole different facility run by people whose job it is
Speaker 2: to specifically mature cheeses. I didn't know that this job existed.
Speaker 2: It's called an affineur and I love this.
Speaker 3: I love this.
Speaker 1: I do too, right, A good job opportunity. What training
Speaker 1: do I need?
Speaker 3: Do I need to eat cheese to do it? I
Speaker 3: think I can so okay.
Speaker 2: In the in the maturing process, the cheese will be
Speaker 2: lightly salted and sprayed with a culture of what's going
Speaker 2: to make it develop its rind and inner texture as
Speaker 2: it ages. This specific species of mold that's named for
Speaker 2: the cheese, Penicillium camemberti. It thrives in cool, humid conditions.
Speaker 2: And part of what this friendly mold does is it
Speaker 2: breaks down the lactic acid that was produced by those
Speaker 2: friendly bacteria during the curdling, and it breaks it down
Speaker 2: into carbon dioxide and water. And this is all happening
Speaker 2: from the outside in. But as the concentration of lactic
Speaker 2: acid inside the cheese shifts, more lactic acid will migrate
Speaker 2: to the surface and get broken down. This, in turn,
Speaker 2: will shimmy loose some of the calcium phosphate that's holding
Speaker 2: together the proteins of the cheese in the interior. That
Speaker 2: calcium phosphate will then migrate to the cheese's surface, making
Speaker 2: the interior of the cheese softer. As the cheese undergoes
Speaker 2: all of this, it also develops its flavors. Flavor molecules
Speaker 2: involved include ones that are like cheesy and buttery, mushroomy, cabbagey, sweaty,
Speaker 2: which sounds like a weird list, but I promise it's
Speaker 2: like in a pleasant way. It is like a more
Speaker 2: challenging cheese on the palette than brie, which is a
Speaker 2: little bit like milky sweet creamy. In a more direct way,
Speaker 2: this is a little weirder, which you know again if
Speaker 2: you dig it.
Speaker 1: Heck yeah.
Speaker 2: As the mold grows, it also forms up into this soft,
Speaker 2: thin rind all around the exterior of the cheese with
Speaker 2: a velvety white surface. Sometimes the little bit of other
Speaker 2: color in there too, like a maybe like a little
Speaker 2: bit of rusty red or greenish blue. And for what
Speaker 2: I understand, that happens mostly in the traditionally produced cheeses
Speaker 2: that have some wild bacteria and or mold action going
Speaker 2: in there. Kevin Bear matures for at least thirteen days
Speaker 2: before being packaged, that is a rule under the Normandy regulations,
Speaker 2: and cannot be sold under those regulations, or more specifically,
Speaker 2: cannot be delivered to customers until they're twenty two days old.
Speaker 2: I love this, Yeah, so specific right, okay, And this
Speaker 2: cheese will continue ripening in its package and we'll start
Speaker 2: to develop sharp flavors as amino acids get broken down
Speaker 2: and ammonia is released. So the idea is like, probably
Speaker 2: eat it fresh. I mean, unless you like that kind
Speaker 2: of thing. I can't tell you what to do, though,
Speaker 2: I will say that research has shown that the optimal
Speaker 2: time to eat Cammbert is between three and seven weeks
Speaker 2: of age.
Speaker 1: Once again, Lauren, how do we get into this research
Speaker 1: just eating cheese and rating how good it is depending
Speaker 1: on how much time has passed.
Speaker 3: We are genuinely missing our life's calling.
Speaker 1: Indeed, we must put things correct.
Speaker 2: I believe in us. I think that we can make
Speaker 2: our dreams come true, our cheese dreams. The best guy, yes,
Speaker 2: but yeah so. Camonbert is often just enjoyed straight. Like
Speaker 2: you know, you just take it out of the box,
Speaker 2: let it come to room temperature, and then eat it
Speaker 2: with some bagette or you know whatever, or you could
Speaker 2: you know, put it into a tart or chiche or
Speaker 2: on a sandwich or a pizza for a little bit
Speaker 2: of French flair in there. I have seen it referred
Speaker 2: to as France's national cheese.
Speaker 1: Yes, they seem to be very into it. Well, what
Speaker 1: about the nutrition.
Speaker 2: You know, cheese is on purpose calorie dense food. That's
Speaker 2: the concept of preserving those, you know, tasty nutritious things.
Speaker 2: It's watch your portion sizes. It might be a treat,
Speaker 2: but treats are so nice. Cheese treats are aces.
Speaker 1: They are difficult to watch your portions. But well, speaking
Speaker 1: of we do have some numbers for you.
Speaker 3: We have a few.
Speaker 2: So according to those production laws, there are currently one
Speaker 2: five hundred and seventy seven municipalities in France that are
Speaker 2: cleared to make cheese that can be labeled as Kemmbert
Speaker 2: In Normandy, them's the facts. There are a couple festivals
Speaker 2: that celebrate Kevimbert and other local cheeses around Normandy. One
Speaker 2: in kem Bremer had its thirtieth anniversary this year, having
Speaker 2: started in nineteen ninety five. It also features other protected
Speaker 2: designation of origin products like poultry and wine. There's another
Speaker 2: in Orbec that hosts up to ten thousand people a
Speaker 2: year and includes a lot of like historical edutainment activities
Speaker 2: like demonstrations of cheese processes and lace making.
Speaker 1: Right right.
Speaker 2: As of twenty nineteen, Kemembert made up just over half
Speaker 2: of the total production of free type cheeses in France
Speaker 2: at eighty eight thousand, three hundred and nine metric tons,
Speaker 2: about half of which is sold in France. However, they
Speaker 2: are into it. They're into it, They're into it. However,
Speaker 2: of that total, only about five thousand metric tons is
Speaker 2: certified Kevin bar to Normandy, it is the best selling
Speaker 2: soft cheese in France and according to one survey, some
Speaker 2: seventy French people say that it is the most emblematic
Speaker 2: French cheese.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there are a couple of contenders, but I
Speaker 1: would say Camembert. I can see it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's only the third best selling cheese
Speaker 2: overall after Chevra and Comte.
Speaker 3: Is that how you say that? Sure?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Great.
Speaker 1: I don't know if the accent of you is there
Speaker 1: or not. I can't remember, but I think so it is. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So with our powers combined, we still don't know French great.
Speaker 1: But we're doing our best and that's what we're going
Speaker 1: to do. In the history.
Speaker 3: Section o hoofta.
Speaker 2: Yes we are, and we will get into that as
Speaker 2: soon as we get back from a quick break for
Speaker 2: a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1: And we're back.
Speaker 3: Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1: So if you've listened to this show before, you're probably
Speaker 1: familiar with the basic theory about the invention of cheese.
Speaker 1: Though it does vary by region and type, it usually
Speaker 1: boils down to storing dairy and something like an animal
Speaker 1: bladder or a cave, and then agitation through movement and
Speaker 1: or time just letting time pass, and then cheese.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, through the action of right a number of
Speaker 2: friendly microbes that we wouldn't really learn about until very recently.
Speaker 1: Yes, which is why there it's often described as an accident,
Speaker 1: like what happened here. When it comes to Cammber specifically,
Speaker 1: it is a bit of a newer cheese in the
Speaker 1: scheme of things. Normandy's climate and environment make it a
Speaker 1: good place for raising cows and therefore making cheese because
Speaker 1: camber is something of a very local and national point
Speaker 1: of pride. As we've mentioned, there are a lot of
Speaker 1: legends about how it was invented, but one in particular
Speaker 1: gets repeated the most and here's how it generally plays out.
Speaker 1: During the French Revolution in seventeen ninety one, a priest
Speaker 1: was being hunted by angry revolutionaries in Normandy. He came
Speaker 1: across a farmer named Many Hedel, who kindly sheltered him.
Speaker 1: The priest was from the town of Bri and was
Speaker 1: familiar with making the cheese that shared the town's name.
Speaker 1: At Chi Sea is much older than Kim and bhaeron
Speaker 1: you can see that episode. As mentioned, Hedel was also
Speaker 1: familiar with cheesemaking, having learned it from her mother as
Speaker 1: she grew up on the farm. In return for the
Speaker 1: farmer's kindness, or maybe out of boredom or cravings, he
Speaker 1: agreed to Dtaete how to make Bri But whether because
Speaker 1: of the ingredients, environment acts, or something else, they ended
Speaker 1: up making a different type of cheese that was similar
Speaker 1: to Breathe but not quite it. It was what would
Speaker 1: become canon Bear instead. However, others point out that some
Speaker 1: evidence suggest that came and beer was recorded in the
Speaker 1: Normandy valley over a century earlier, in the sixteen eighties.
Speaker 1: It's possible that Herel and the priest improved upon the
Speaker 1: cheese in some way, but there's no substantial evidence of that.
Speaker 1: Others alleged that Herald was not from camen Bear but
Speaker 1: a village nearby, and that's a big sticking point.
Speaker 2: For them, whatever the case. In these early days, the
Speaker 2: mold that works to mature this cheese from the outside
Speaker 2: and was just something that occurred naturally in the places
Speaker 2: where people set the cheese down to age. And as
Speaker 2: a result of this wild culture, you would have gotten
Speaker 2: slightly different flavors in every batch and different colors on
Speaker 2: the rind. Cheese like Camembert and brie would have been
Speaker 2: gray green to green blue in color until sometime in
Speaker 2: the nineteen hundreds, yes.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, whether this is true or not exaggerated or not,
Speaker 1: soon after Harrell allegedly invented cam and beert, it had
Speaker 1: become pretty popular, though mostly it was local since it
Speaker 1: was a soft cheese and therefore difficult to transport, and
Speaker 1: we're talking really local distribution in the beginning, like Aral's
Speaker 1: friends and the nearby town and that's it. It was
Speaker 1: so local that apparently no one really gave it an
Speaker 1: official name, which brings us to another legend. Napoleon named
Speaker 1: the cheese okay, yes, as the story goes Napoleon was
Speaker 1: passing through and someone offered him the cheese, and he
Speaker 1: loved it so much he kissed the woman who gave
Speaker 1: it to him on the cheek and named it officially
Speaker 1: after the town, or Napoleon the third did, or neither
Speaker 1: of them did, but the Napoleons do get credit for
Speaker 1: the whole thing. Yep. The Industrial Revolution made it possible
Speaker 1: to ship camembert to other places. On top of that,
Speaker 1: we get the invention of the wooden container that was
Speaker 1: used to transport it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like the circumstance of this cheese coming up
Speaker 2: alongside railways booming in like the mid to late eighteen
Speaker 2: hundreds absolutely influenced its popularity, Like it was suddenly a
Speaker 2: a product that people were talking about and wanted, and
Speaker 2: b it was able to be transported into city centers.
Speaker 2: It is thought that producers began selecting specifically for that
Speaker 2: Penicillium camberti strain around this time, like right around the
Speaker 2: turn of the twentieth century.
Speaker 1: And P.
Speaker 2: Camemberti is interesting because it's a white mutation of the
Speaker 2: types of penns Ilium that were growing wild that gave
Speaker 2: those those green blue gray colors. Researchers would isolate it
Speaker 2: in nineteen oh six from samples of Camembert cheese, and
Speaker 2: they began producing it in labs cheese science.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: Then in nineteen oh nine a bunch of producers got
Speaker 2: together and formed an association to protect and promote the
Speaker 2: traditional production of Kevinbert. The English translation is something along
Speaker 2: the lines of like the Association of Producers of True
Speaker 2: or Authentic Camembert of Normandy.
Speaker 1: Wow, okay, mmmmm, I don't want to mess with them.
Speaker 3: No, you don't, I really don't.
Speaker 1: I'm not being cavalier serious, but this brings us to
Speaker 1: another legend. According to Saver, in nineteen twenty six, a
Speaker 1: New Yorker made the journey to Vitmotier, which is located
Speaker 1: near Normandy, to pay his respects Torel by laying a
Speaker 1: wreath of flowers on her grave. And he claimed the
Speaker 1: cheese Kim and Bert had cured him of his stomach ailments.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I read that he was a doctor and he was
Speaker 2: overseas during World War One ish and said that right,
Speaker 2: the cheese had helped him and or his patients.
Speaker 1: Yes, he also donated twenty dollars and the Association of
Speaker 1: producers of Jude Normandy Kevinbert realized that this was a
Speaker 1: real opportunity. His donation went to a sculpture of Harel,
Speaker 1: and many speculate that this helped solidify her space in
Speaker 1: history like this, Really the legend is now what we're
Speaker 1: saying is true. The statue would eventually be destroyed during
Speaker 1: bombing and World War II.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, Normandy is a little
Speaker 2: famous for having gone through it. But the statue was
Speaker 2: rebuilt after the war. Apparently it was as a gift
Speaker 2: from this group of cheese factory workers in Ohio, and
Speaker 2: they had one of Harel made for themselves too.
Speaker 1: Still, this cheese was pretty regional for a while, but
Speaker 1: that did change with World War One, where the cheese
Speaker 1: was popular amongst French soldiers after they got a taste
Speaker 1: of it, and once they returned home, they started asking
Speaker 1: for it and word and demand spread, and not only
Speaker 1: in France but internationally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was part of rations for French
Speaker 2: soldiers at some point, and we've heard that story repeated
Speaker 2: about various different foods in all kinds of episodes. That
Speaker 2: attention was not all good, however, because between both World
Speaker 2: Wars and then you know all of the disruption that
Speaker 2: those brought, and then post war large dairies getting in
Speaker 2: on production. The traditional production of Camembert started fading, but
Speaker 2: that Makers Association was working on bringing it back.
Speaker 1: Yes, they were. In nineteen eighty three, Camembert received an
Speaker 1: AOC or a controlled designation of origin, which we've talked
Speaker 1: about numerous times. However, as we said at the top,
Speaker 1: cheeses that do not follow the laid out rules for
Speaker 1: the AOC or are processed outside of Canon Beert can
Speaker 1: still call their products Camon beer. If you want the
Speaker 1: AOC product, the label reads Camon Beert in Normandy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the cheese received a broader European designation an AOP
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety six. Around that same time, those larger
Speaker 2: cheese producers started challenging the rules of these distinctions, suggesting
Speaker 2: that traditionally make Camibert could just be labeled as vera
Speaker 2: tab true or authentic and allow factory made is to
Speaker 2: share that Camumbart to Norman Dy label. But they have
Speaker 2: been shut down.
Speaker 1: Yes. In two thousand and seven, two of the biggest
Speaker 1: AOC canon beer producers in Normandy started using microfiltered milk
Speaker 1: to meet some international health standards around unpasteurized milk, which
Speaker 1: is what the traditional product calls for, and in doing
Speaker 1: so they lost their AOC label.
Speaker 2: Discussions about this have continued around the same time and
Speaker 2: or later and or continually, like other producers were trying
Speaker 2: to use low heat treated milk and get the rule
Speaker 2: changed to allow that. But that committee, that association is insistent,
Speaker 2: and the whole thing has been so hotly debated, like
Speaker 2: larger facilities will insist that their product is safer and
Speaker 2: therefore superior, and the smaller facilities insist that the microbiome
Speaker 2: of the milk before processing is integral to the quality
Speaker 2: of the final product, which is therefore superior.
Speaker 1: It's great it is And speaking of hotly debated things,
Speaker 1: oh jeez. McDonald's France rolled out the temporary menu item
Speaker 1: the mc kevin Bear in twenty thirteen in France. No
Speaker 1: one was particularly happy about it.
Speaker 3: No one.
Speaker 2: Oh, I this was my first rabbit hole of the
Speaker 2: episode because I got to that note and I was like, oh, no,
Speaker 2: I need to know everything about this.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the Guardian reported about it and quoted one Patrick Marcier,
Speaker 2: then the president of that producer association, and Furthermore, he's
Speaker 2: the head of this one like particularly renowned organic farm
Speaker 2: that produces cavin bear.
Speaker 3: They quoted him, he said.
Speaker 2: We feel used. They did this without consulting us, without
Speaker 2: even warning us, warning us. He does seem really cool.
Speaker 2: His farm seems really cool. I read a lot about it.
Speaker 2: But this was on the part of McDonald's. This was
Speaker 2: part of a larger release of like artisanal cheese based
Speaker 2: sandwiches in French McDonald's that year, including Comte and Raclette.
Speaker 2: I think the concepts in general were like, okay, so,
Speaker 2: like you've got like a chewy roll and like a
Speaker 2: better than average like local burger patty, and then it's
Speaker 2: topped with like lettuce, tomato, a garlicky mayo, and a
Speaker 2: thick slice of whatever the cheese in question was, which
Speaker 2: earnestly sounds great. Yeah, like I'm mad about how much
Speaker 2: I want to be eating that right now. Totally eat
Speaker 2: that anyway. Furthermore, apparently McDonald's in France are fancier than
Speaker 2: ours and they are the second highest grossing market for
Speaker 2: the company outside of the United States.
Speaker 1: Oh that's fascinating. Okay one, in my experience, every other
Speaker 1: country has better McDonald's.
Speaker 3: US, Okay, sure, yeah, but.
Speaker 1: Two, France kind of notoriously hates McDonald's, Like that's kind
Speaker 1: of their whole look at America ruining our which I'm
Speaker 1: not get it. Don't believe me. I get it, sure,
Speaker 1: ruining like the Eifel towers here and here's the McDonald's.
Speaker 1: So I did not know that about them being such
Speaker 1: a big.
Speaker 2: Market apparently, especially like in the past tennis years or
Speaker 2: so with initiatives like this, they've really made there.
Speaker 3: They really made.
Speaker 2: The French McDonald's more French, you know, like they have
Speaker 2: nicer seed and lighting.
Speaker 3: They've got a cafe where you can.
Speaker 2: Get real coffee products and like maclonol and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: and you know, and like they're just they're just like, oh,
Speaker 2: like you like French food, can we just can we
Speaker 2: give that to you? And they're like, yeah, sure, it's delicious,
Speaker 2: thank you.
Speaker 1: Wow. Well, I personally I go to McDonald's every time
Speaker 1: I visit. I don't eat there, but I go in
Speaker 1: to look at their menu and see what it's all about,
Speaker 1: because I just find it very interesting. So listeners, if
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts about this or any McDonald's you've
Speaker 1: been to, I would love to know because I just
Speaker 1: in my head, I just have this association with you know,
Speaker 1: French people. No McDonald's.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like we could definitely do because we
Speaker 2: have done an episode on McDonald's, but it was mostly
Speaker 2: about the wild history of what's his name who founded it?
Speaker 2: Ray Kroc, Ray Krock you And we didn't get that
Speaker 2: far into international McDonald's sananigans.
Speaker 3: And we absolutely could.
Speaker 1: We could. It's an insane level of our We're gonna
Speaker 1: do it one day. But of our pizza toppic.
Speaker 2: Crust and pizza yeah yeah, international pizza huts alone, yes,
Speaker 2: but further international pizza dealings. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, listeners, please write in well. In twenty seventeen, the
Speaker 1: Google Doodle honored Hell Hell as part of as the
Speaker 1: creator of Camenbert. So they're following, They're all. In the
Speaker 1: following year, there was a push to allow all came
Speaker 1: and Beert made in France to use the label Camembert
Speaker 1: de Norman d. But there was a lot of pushback
Speaker 1: and protest against the whole thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it has been shot down as far
Speaker 2: as I'm personally aware. Then, in twenty twenty four, researchers
Speaker 2: called attention to this potential problem for the future of
Speaker 2: kem and beer production, that being the supply of Penicillium kemmberti,
Speaker 2: that friendly mold that makes it work. The researchers found
Speaker 2: that this selected strain of penicillium doesn't have great genetic
Speaker 2: diversity because it is lab raised and it's reproduced asexually,
Speaker 2: meaning that people are producing identical clones with like no
Speaker 2: opportunities to get new genetic material in there. A healthier
Speaker 2: population is always more genetically diverse, so this means that
Speaker 2: a labs can't produce they can produce like a relatively
Speaker 2: limited amount, so they're struggling to keep up with demand.
Speaker 2: And furthermore, like if some disease that affects this mold
Speaker 2: strain happened to break out, it could be devastating. However,
Speaker 2: science is working on it. There is ongoing research into
Speaker 2: different strains and how they can be improved. There's also
Speaker 2: research into making plant based plant milk based cheeses using
Speaker 2: pi Kim.
Speaker 3: And Marty So.
Speaker 1: Cheese science, Cheese science, So cool, really cool. Cheese episodes
Speaker 1: are always fun, a little complicated, but fun. That's why
Speaker 1: we got to space them out a little. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know what would have happened to you if
Speaker 1: you had done that whole cheese show you were planning.
Speaker 3: I would have it would have been no, no, you
Speaker 3: would have.
Speaker 1: Gone on an internet rabbit hole and been absorbed by
Speaker 1: the internet.
Speaker 3: The cheese continuum would have eaten me. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's good. We're we're taking our time, but
Speaker 1: they are fun. And please, listeners, let us know if
Speaker 1: you have any favorite preparations of Camembert recipes or you
Speaker 1: just eat it like it is. I think that's amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but please let us know. Yeah, that's what we have
Speaker 1: to say about Camonbert for now.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 2: We do already have some listener mail for you, though,
Speaker 2: and we are going to get into that as soon
Speaker 2: as we get back from one more quick break for
Speaker 2: a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3: We we're back.
Speaker 1: Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, And we're back with
Speaker 1: m Earth Eat much room nice Yeah, our crode in
Speaker 1: about a couple of things. Turkish Delight, as you know,
Speaker 1: is a pretty unique confectionery and can cover a wide
Speaker 1: range of flavors and sweetness. I don't recall having anything
Speaker 1: really memorable here in the US, and it has been
Speaker 1: a while since I have seen any imported. When I
Speaker 1: was in London recently, our office did have a small
Speaker 1: box that was really good. It was a simple rosewater one,
Speaker 1: just a slight sweetness and it was very enjoyable. Kicking
Speaker 1: myself now for not making note of the brand. Hopefully
Speaker 1: I'll find a good one here that is not too expensive. Now.
Speaker 1: I've never had Kafelta fish. I've seen the jarred, but
Speaker 1: have never heard of it being made fresh. Something I
Speaker 1: will need to look out for. Schitake mushrooms are definitely
Speaker 1: a great one to use. I try to keep dried
Speaker 1: ones available to use in broth, especially for ramen or fu.
Speaker 1: Cooking fresh is challenging for me as I struggle to
Speaker 1: keep them from getting rubbery, but they do provide a
Speaker 1: lot of variety. Crispy cream has mostly disappeared around me,
Speaker 1: except for a few small stores that have them as
Speaker 1: an option. I personally think both Crispy and Duncan have
Speaker 1: really dropped in quality over the last five years or so.
Speaker 1: They have become the well it is a donut to me.
Speaker 1: I will look for a small bakery or local shop first.
Speaker 1: Bring on the saison, my second favorite behind sours, and
Speaker 1: love that Unibrow teamed up with Megadeath a few years
Speaker 1: ago to do one called a toulamnd after their song
Speaker 1: of the same name. Beer episodes are always fun, informative
Speaker 1: and will bring on opinions. Now you have me wondering
Speaker 1: about a curry tree as well as always thank you
Speaker 1: for bringing us knowledge and joy. Well, thanks for listening
Speaker 1: and writing in I I love this. I actually had
Speaker 1: a tou lamonde, but yeah I have. I didn't know. Oh,
Speaker 1: I didn't know what.
Speaker 3: I had no idea. It was in collaboration with Mega Death.
Speaker 3: There you go.
Speaker 1: No, and Lauren and I were discussing beforehand as cheese
Speaker 1: is very a lot written about it when it comes
Speaker 1: from France, very verbose. A lot of our beer episodes
Speaker 1: are similarly complicated if they're from Germany because of tax
Speaker 1: laws and very dense, dry documents.
Speaker 2: And just a lot of things to read about in
Speaker 2: terms of like the grain bill, like what specific ingredients
Speaker 2: are going in there and where they are from and
Speaker 2: the history of those things. And it gets like right,
Speaker 2: like in this episode about cheese, like I reached a
Speaker 2: point where I was like, okay, I have to start
Speaker 2: googling the back like the mold culture, because I need
Speaker 2: to know more about that before I can finish writing
Speaker 2: about this cheese, which is fascinating and also holy crap.
Speaker 1: Yep, pretty much. But people have written in about their
Speaker 1: opinions about says On, so you're right about that, and
Speaker 1: we'll be hearing some of those messages coming up. But
Speaker 1: in the meantime, we got a lot of Krispy Kream
Speaker 1: messages to get through. I tell you what people have
Speaker 1: thoughts I am interested in.
Speaker 3: I kind of.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say I agree with you, because it's not
Speaker 1: like I was eating at Crispy Kream or Dunkin Donuts
Speaker 1: a lot beforehand. But I feel like in my experience,
Speaker 1: a lot of more artisan are like fancy donut places
Speaker 1: opened a couple of years ago, like before the pandemic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I wonder if there was some kind of thing
Speaker 1: that happened where the like nice donuts that is not
Speaker 1: from these chain restaurants was having a moment. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but a good donut is, yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 2: A great donut is really is really good, and a
Speaker 2: don't is really good.
Speaker 1: That you write Native doughnuts, Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2: There really is something about the hot now situation for
Speaker 2: Krispy Kreme, but also I wanted to update y'all about
Speaker 2: curry tree leaves. I think like a day or two
Speaker 2: after we recorded that episode, I ordered some food from
Speaker 2: Chai Pani and it came with what I strongly believe
Speaker 2: our little fried curry curry leaves on top. And they
Speaker 2: were so nice and it made me so happy.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you must tell me what I should order.
Speaker 1: I love Chai Panni. Oh my gosh, that made me
Speaker 1: so excited.
Speaker 2: It was it was one of their chats. It was
Speaker 2: one of their like appetizer kind of situations. Yeah, I'll
Speaker 2: I'll remember it or pull it up on my phone
Speaker 2: and let you know.
Speaker 1: I could. I mean, I could just get a lot
Speaker 1: of their appetizers and be really I mean, oh, they're terrific. Absolutely, yes, yes, there,
Speaker 1: I'm going to look into that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Shout out as always to a Marana Rani who was
Speaker 2: on our show back when we did those Ashuville episodes.
Speaker 3: A lovely human person.
Speaker 1: Yes, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2: H Christine wrote, I really really enjoyed the Torta Pasqualina episode.
Speaker 2: I'm not familiar with this version, but I'm very familiar
Speaker 2: with a sixteenth century ancestor and a sixteenth century German cousin.
Speaker 2: As you noted, Martino de Rassi aka Maestro Martino of
Speaker 2: Como wrote about a torch in the Genovese style which
Speaker 2: I have cooked. Sadly, I don't have an online recipe
Speaker 2: of this dish. I developed it for an SCA event
Speaker 2: that took place in January of twenty twenty, towards the
Speaker 2: end of what we in Australia call Black Summer. Because
Speaker 2: most of Eastern Australia was on fire, we couldn't go
Speaker 2: outside much because of the air quality and the extreme heat. Still,
Speaker 2: with some good friends, I made four hundred individual little
Speaker 2: pies for this event, and the torte in Genevese style
Speaker 2: was very very well received. This early version contains finely
Speaker 2: chopped shard, walnuts, almonds, spices, and caviar or lumpfish row.
Speaker 2: You can make this vegan very easily by removing the
Speaker 2: fish row with fish eggs and making the pastry with
Speaker 2: dairy free shortening. And the combination of nuts and shard
Speaker 2: is very enjoyable, and it's even better if you do
Speaker 2: include the fish row. Still, making four hundred tiny pies
Speaker 2: in forty degree Celsia's heat with the windows closed and
Speaker 2: no air conditioning is not something I recommend. It's also
Speaker 2: worth noting that at this time, tort was a lidded
Speaker 2: pie made in a shallow dish called tortillera. Let's go
Speaker 2: with that sure. Moving in to the sixteenth century, Bartolomeo
Speaker 2: Scappies Opera included a recipe for Genovese gattafura. I don't
Speaker 2: know if you roll that are or not, Let's go
Speaker 2: with it, which consists of two flat sheets of pastry
Speaker 2: with a filling of sharred herbs and fresh cheese. This
Speaker 2: I haven't cooked, but I'm intending to very soon. Scapie
Speaker 2: prefers it must be served warm. As for the sixteenth
Speaker 2: century German cousin I mentioned, Sabrina Welserin, who is part
Speaker 2: of a wealthy mercantile family of Augsburg, compiled a cookbook
Speaker 2: which contained a recipe for a Genovese tart. This is
Speaker 2: a lidded pie with a filling of shard fresh cheese
Speaker 2: and Parmesan cheese. It's a filling dish and great for vegetarians.
Speaker 2: This was the first recipe of this family I cooked,
Speaker 2: and this one is documented in my cooking blog, and
Speaker 2: this includes the spectacular failure that was my first attempt.
Speaker 2: But now I have questions. How did these recipes evolve
Speaker 2: into the contemporary torta pascalina. Did Martinos torta combine with
Speaker 2: Scapi's gattafura with the fish row replaced with chicken eggs?
Speaker 2: And what, for the love of kitties is a gatta
Speaker 2: fura given that the Italian for cat is goatta or gatto.
Speaker 2: Did the cats lie on the pastry when it was
Speaker 2: brought out of the oven. This would fit given Scapi
Speaker 2: said it should be served warm and cats were found
Speaker 2: around kitchens serving as rodent control. It's going to be
Speaker 2: interesting to see if I can one day find the answers.
Speaker 2: I will keep you updated about my cooking adventures.
Speaker 1: Oh please do.
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, Yes, this is excellent.
Speaker 2: A I have not had fish row in a pie before,
Speaker 2: and now I'm mad that I haven't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, because absolutely, yeah, h I love this. You're
Speaker 1: always you write in about these historical things and theories.
Speaker 1: It's so cool. But also four hundred individual little pies
Speaker 1: for in an event in those conditions. Hats up to you, friends.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's what like that's over a hundred in fahrenheit.
Speaker 3: That's warm.
Speaker 1: Yeah no, and cooking it like cooking pies. Like the
Speaker 1: other day, I was going to roast something and it's
Speaker 1: hot here, so I was like, no, it's just gonna
Speaker 1: make it worse.
Speaker 3: It's gonna make it worse, and I'm gonna sweat and
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna like it. And here we are. Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, but that sounds delicious. I'm glad it was very
Speaker 1: well received. Yes, but yes, that sounds like a whole thing. Oh,
Speaker 1: but so delightful.
Speaker 3: All of these.
Speaker 2: So cool.
Speaker 1: It is cool, history is cool, pie is cool. Cats
Speaker 1: who knows? Many questions I have too? So I hope
Speaker 1: to hear from you again.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes, now I'm hungry for this thing that I still
Speaker 2: haven't eaten.
Speaker 3: Okay, we're fine.
Speaker 1: It always happens, Lauren, it does good time. Well, Thank
Speaker 1: you so much to both of these listeners writing and
Speaker 1: if you would like to write to us, you can
Speaker 1: or email us hello at savorpod dot com.
Speaker 2: We're also on social media. You can find us on
Speaker 2: Blue Sky and Instagram at savor pod, and we do
Speaker 2: hope to hear from you. Save is production of iHeartRadio
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Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
Speaker 2: your favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers
Speaker 2: Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening,
Speaker 2: and we hope that lots more good things are coming
Speaker 2: your way.