WEBVTT - I Drive a Tesla, I Do My Part...Right?

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, Mark, We are here today discussing lithium ion battery

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<v Speaker 1>manufacturing emissions, which is a note that can be found

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<v Speaker 1>on the Bloomberg terminal at benof Go or at benf

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<v Speaker 1>dot com. This particular research note is something I have

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<v Speaker 1>been waiting for some time now. Several months back, I

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<v Speaker 1>was test driving electric vehicles as I was thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>buying one, and I at the same time as being

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<v Speaker 1>teased pretty relentlessly, i might add, by a friend of mine,

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<v Speaker 1>and he kept telling me that I was looking to

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<v Speaker 1>buy a coal car, so like one of those cars

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<v Speaker 1>that's converted from a gasoline to a coal fired car. No,

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<v Speaker 1>not at all, This at a thing. Yeah, yeah, look

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<v Speaker 1>it up on YouTube. Well no, actually he meant that

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<v Speaker 1>because an electric vehicle is actually plugged into the grid,

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<v Speaker 1>and oftentimes you find coal in the grid, that that

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<v Speaker 1>is ultimately what was powering it. There is really a

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<v Speaker 1>lack of information out there regarding electric vehicles and their

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<v Speaker 1>emissions when you're taking the battery manufacturing part into consideration.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is B and F chance to clear everything up.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course all of this is taking place with

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<v Speaker 1>air pollution in cities as a part of the backdrop.

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<v Speaker 1>So what if electric vehicles are actually just moving the

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<v Speaker 1>emissions elsewhere and they're not coming out of your tail pipe,

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<v Speaker 1>but they're still polluting and have the greenhouse gases with

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<v Speaker 1>them as well. Well. Fortunately we have James Frith energy

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<v Speaker 1>storage analysts and Logan Goldie Scott, who is the head

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<v Speaker 1>of the NEF Energy Storage team. They're going to tell

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<v Speaker 1>us more about what is actually happening with battery emissions

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<v Speaker 1>and hopefully demystify a bunch of this for us. Please

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<v Speaker 1>note that benef does not provide investment strategy advice, and

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<v Speaker 1>we can hear a full disclaimer at the end of

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<v Speaker 1>the show. James Logan, thank you for joining us today.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for having us. Dana, Thanks Dana. So people that

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<v Speaker 1>own electric vehicles, are they really doing right by the environment? Yeah, definitely.

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<v Speaker 1>We found in this work that electric vehicle produces about

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<v Speaker 1>half the CEO two emissions over its lifetime compared to

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<v Speaker 1>an internal combustion engine VIC when you're looking at the

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<v Speaker 1>same vehicle segments, and that's for vehicles produced and used

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<v Speaker 1>in Germany. If you look at vehicles that are used

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<v Speaker 1>on other grids in the world, actually those emissions dropped massively.

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<v Speaker 1>In Sweden, for example, where the electricity grid there produces

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<v Speaker 1>about sixteen grams of c O two per killor hour

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<v Speaker 1>of energy produced. The lifetime emissions of an electric vehicle

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<v Speaker 1>about fifty three times lower than that of a standard

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<v Speaker 1>small internal combustion engine vehicle in Europe. Okay, let's unpack

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<v Speaker 1>that just a bit. So you're saying that location matters

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<v Speaker 1>for the lifetime emissions of these cars. Yeah, certainly for

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<v Speaker 1>electric vehicles, it's so important you have the emissions associated

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<v Speaker 1>with vehicle manufacturing, with the battery manufacturing, and then crucially

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<v Speaker 1>for electric vehicles, with their use over the lifetime. So

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<v Speaker 1>if you think about an electric vehicle, it charges from

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<v Speaker 1>the grid, so those grid emissions have a big impact.

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<v Speaker 1>Whereas for an internal combustion engine vehicle, you're using petrol

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<v Speaker 1>or diesel, So it doesn't matter where in the world

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<v Speaker 1>you are, those emissions are going to be the same.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just going to change by whatever engine you're using.

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<v Speaker 1>And so just just thinking about about use case and

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<v Speaker 1>just to put some put some numbers on it. If

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<v Speaker 1>you're like, on average, emissions from an electric vehicle will

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<v Speaker 1>be around lower than emissions from an internal combustion engine.

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<v Speaker 1>But if you go to a country. If you're driving

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<v Speaker 1>your car in China, for instance, which is a much

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<v Speaker 1>more coal on the grid that is only around so

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<v Speaker 1>location can be incredibly impactful here. Now, is that just

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<v Speaker 1>taking into consideration when you're actually using the vehicle and

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<v Speaker 1>tailpipe emissions? Because in this note you're really getting into

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of parts of the supply chain in the

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<v Speaker 1>manufacturing process. What does it include there? That's that's only

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<v Speaker 1>when we're using the vehicle. That what stood out with

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<v Speaker 1>this note was really how we could track from extraction

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<v Speaker 1>of the raw materials all the way through to manufacturing,

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<v Speaker 1>manufacturing the components, the logistics associated with that, and then

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<v Speaker 1>manufacturing the batteries themselves. And what we found overall is

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<v Speaker 1>that even once you account for that, battery electric vehicles

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<v Speaker 1>are better from an emission standpoint then are equivalent internal

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<v Speaker 1>combustion engine Let's isolate the manufacturing part, since we've already

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<v Speaker 1>talked about tail pipe emissions in the manufacturing process of

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<v Speaker 1>the battery. How big a part of the overall vehicles

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<v Speaker 1>life cycle emissions is this? It's actually a lot smaller

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<v Speaker 1>than people think. So some people quote it being about

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<v Speaker 1>of the vehicle's lifetime emissions, but actually we found that

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<v Speaker 1>it's closer to ten percent. Ten percent's not a ton,

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<v Speaker 1>but definitely moves the needle. So what's the biggest input

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<v Speaker 1>that's going to make the battery high or low? From

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<v Speaker 1>an emission standpoint, there's a couple of things to look at.

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<v Speaker 1>So the chemistry that's being used has an impact, but

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<v Speaker 1>also the conditions you use during that manufacturing process. They

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<v Speaker 1>can range hugely depending on what outcome you're trying to produce.

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<v Speaker 1>If you want a high power cell, for example, is

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<v Speaker 1>used in hybrid electric vehicles, the emissions associated with that

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<v Speaker 1>are larger than if you're using an energy cell as

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<v Speaker 1>used in a battery electric vehicle. Oh, so the hybrid

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<v Speaker 1>vehicles are actually those batteries themselves are worse because you

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<v Speaker 1>would think they're smaller. So therefore, from an emission standpoint,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a win. You can kind of touched on it there.

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<v Speaker 1>They are smaller, so the total emissions from that is

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<v Speaker 1>going to be less than for a battery electric vehicle.

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<v Speaker 1>But if you look on a on a killer what

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<v Speaker 1>our basis, so a killer what hour of hybrid electric

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<v Speaker 1>vehicle pack is more polluting than a kilo what hour

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<v Speaker 1>of battery electric vehicle pack. There are a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>different battery pack types and compositions, so who's the biggest

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<v Speaker 1>and who's the smallest in terms of emission size. So

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<v Speaker 1>definitely the lowest polluting ones that we came across were

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<v Speaker 1>lithium and phosphate based batteries, and these are the type

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<v Speaker 1>that are commonly used in electric buses, whereas the types

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<v Speaker 1>that used in electric vehicles are increasingly using more nickel

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<v Speaker 1>in those batteries, and some of the emissions associated with

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<v Speaker 1>extracting and processing nickel is quite high, so that increases

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<v Speaker 1>the emissions of those trees. So nickel's the worst offender

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<v Speaker 1>and all of this it's not great for it. There

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<v Speaker 1>are some other considerations around aluminium and copper, but let's

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<v Speaker 1>say nickel for the moment, it isn't nickel demand for

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<v Speaker 1>the battery growing. What's replacing cobalt, right, Yeah, precisely. So

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<v Speaker 1>there is more and more nickel going into these chemistries.

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<v Speaker 1>So the emissions are increasing, but there's also work that's

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<v Speaker 1>being done by the battery manufacturers to reduce those emissions,

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<v Speaker 1>particularly in the manufacturing process. We're seeing companies like north Vault,

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<v Speaker 1>who are based in Sweden. They're trying to become a

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<v Speaker 1>net zero emission manufacturer. Should I know. North Vault there

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<v Speaker 1>are a startup at the moment, but they've been making

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<v Speaker 1>big waves recently in the battery world. So they've signed

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<v Speaker 1>a joint venture with with VW and they recently secured

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<v Speaker 1>a billion in funding from the European Investment Bank amongst

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<v Speaker 1>other people. And they're going to be Europe's first gigga

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<v Speaker 1>scale homegrown battery manufacturer and based in Sweden because of

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<v Speaker 1>the emissions, so their flagship plant will be based in

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<v Speaker 1>Sweden and it's those lower emissions is one of the

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<v Speaker 1>reasons why they chose to base the factory there. They've

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<v Speaker 1>also going to have at least one more plant in

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<v Speaker 1>Germany at the moment and that will be paired up

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<v Speaker 1>with VW. Just on the previous point around looking at

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<v Speaker 1>technologies and how they compare from an emission standpoint, it's

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<v Speaker 1>just so important to look at company strategies as well.

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<v Speaker 1>So automakers, battery manufacturers, they are all investing heavily in

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<v Speaker 1>their supply chain sustainability and so regardless of the technology

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<v Speaker 1>of choice. Actually we're seeing a huge amount of progress

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<v Speaker 1>on this front, but it depends by company. Almost more

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<v Speaker 1>than anything else. Why are they incentive to care about sustainability?

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<v Speaker 1>Is it from a pr and attracting consumer standpoint or

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<v Speaker 1>more attracting investor standpoint? I think probably more more of

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<v Speaker 1>the latter. They're they're looking at sustainability in order to

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<v Speaker 1>improve efficiency UM and mitigate climate and transition risk. And

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<v Speaker 1>this is something that was seeing increasingly at the forefront

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<v Speaker 1>of investor as minds um and coming up on stead

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<v Speaker 1>of on shareholders calls fairly frequently within the automotive and

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<v Speaker 1>battery space, and and and much broader as well. I

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<v Speaker 1>think i'd add to that as well. When we're thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about this from the public perception point of view as well,

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<v Speaker 1>the question that we had at the start, are internal

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<v Speaker 1>combustion engine vehicles more or less polluting than electric vehicles?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to buy an electric vehicle if I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's it's not as it's not better for the

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<v Speaker 1>environment than in the internal combustion engine vehicle. And so

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<v Speaker 1>manufacturers are also listening to what the public says, especially

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<v Speaker 1>when at this point in time they are more expensive.

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<v Speaker 1>The cheapest electric vehicle you can get is still way

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<v Speaker 1>more expensive than the cheapest internal combustion engine you can get.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you're paying a premium, you want to pay

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<v Speaker 1>a premium for something that's going to hopefully achieve what

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<v Speaker 1>you think in your mind you're trying to achieve, which

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<v Speaker 1>is lower emissions. Just on that front, though, where at

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<v Speaker 1>the moment that is that is true for most for

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<v Speaker 1>most vehicle segments. The recent success of models such as

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<v Speaker 1>Tesla's Model three, which came out in this sort of

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<v Speaker 1>a second half of eighteen, have demonstrated that appetite for

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<v Speaker 1>for a more competitive, for a more sort of a

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<v Speaker 1>for a more competitive sort of vehicle in consumers minds

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<v Speaker 1>um and when when we look at battery technologies and

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<v Speaker 1>battery prices going forward, actually on an upfront basis, we

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<v Speaker 1>believe that you start seeing electric vehicles actually become more

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<v Speaker 1>attractive and a lower cost option than internal combustion engine

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<v Speaker 1>vehicles depending on country, depending on segment. But by by

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<v Speaker 1>the mid early to mid twenties, and so we're only

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<v Speaker 1>a few years away from that description of yours just

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<v Speaker 1>just no longer no longer being correct. So these batteries

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<v Speaker 1>are getting cheaper and they're getting more range as well,

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<v Speaker 1>which assumes then that the battery packs are getting a

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<v Speaker 1>bit larger. Does that have a big impact on the

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<v Speaker 1>emissions profile. So we'll have an impact on the emissions profile.

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<v Speaker 1>But I think if we're looking for the future. The

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<v Speaker 1>other thing that we've got to bring up here, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>is that actually grids around the world are getting greener.

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<v Speaker 1>There's CEO two emissions pecular hour of energy produced are falling.

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<v Speaker 1>And so when you look at the use of an

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<v Speaker 1>electric vehicle over say a ten year lifetime, actually every

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<v Speaker 1>time you charge it, almost the energy going into charging

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<v Speaker 1>that battery is cleaner. And it's similar for manufacturing. As

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<v Speaker 1>the batteries get bigger again, the grids will have got greener,

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<v Speaker 1>and therefore the emissions associated with the battery and the

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<v Speaker 1>vehicle will have fallen. By we expect wind and solar

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<v Speaker 1>to make up of total generation globally, and that's up

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<v Speaker 1>for less than ten percent or so today, and that

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<v Speaker 1>just speaks to that change. Change to James's outline, my

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<v Speaker 1>question really revolves around recycling. Is it going to end

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<v Speaker 1>up being cheaper or better or worse from an emission

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<v Speaker 1>standpoint to actually look at these existing batteries and do

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<v Speaker 1>something with them at the end of life, or are

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<v Speaker 1>they going to become power walls in our houses. So

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<v Speaker 1>I think that is a really interesting question and the

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<v Speaker 1>answer isn't clear. So recycling battery is clearly going to

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<v Speaker 1>be vital in the future because we don't want to

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<v Speaker 1>put them into landfills. But they might have a second life.

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<v Speaker 1>As you point out, they may be using your house beforehand,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, and if you do that, if you use

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<v Speaker 1>them in the second life application, you're spreading the emissions

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<v Speaker 1>with manufacturing that battery over more years of use, so

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<v Speaker 1>you're reducing the average per cycle energy use. I think

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<v Speaker 1>the honest there is on companies that are developing second

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<v Speaker 1>life second life projects to prove that this really works

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<v Speaker 1>in practice. In theory, this is this is a really

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<v Speaker 1>nice idea, but at the moment we've yet to yet

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<v Speaker 1>to see this deployed commercially. I think the other thing

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<v Speaker 1>to add on that as well, when we look at recycling,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the tricky things there is that actually the

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<v Speaker 1>economics are heavily tied to the price of commodities when

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<v Speaker 1>you're doing that recycling. So if cobalt or lithium is

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<v Speaker 1>very cheap, then actually maybe it doesn't make sense to

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<v Speaker 1>recycle that battery at that time, and so a second

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<v Speaker 1>life application might be more beneficial. My question when I

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<v Speaker 1>looked there at a figure on your exact sum was, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so Poland has high graded emissions intensity, but do they

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<v Speaker 1>really manufactured batteries? There really full four electric vehicles for

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<v Speaker 1>electric vehicles because I hear LG and I hear phones

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<v Speaker 1>individual consumer electronics, and actually that's a it's such an

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<v Speaker 1>interesting overlap because I think you guys pointed out at

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<v Speaker 1>a previous summit that there is this intersection between consumer

0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.000
<v Speaker 1>electronics and our phones and our computers, and then energy

0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.400
<v Speaker 1>storage on the grid and then vehicles. You have all

0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:36.040
<v Speaker 1>of these really big companies who've got skin in the

0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:39.200
<v Speaker 1>game on making this work. So they are really caring

0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.400
<v Speaker 1>a about increasing the amount of supply and be on

0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:46.080
<v Speaker 1>decreasing the cost of batteries. But are they playing a

0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.320
<v Speaker 1>part in that though as well? Are they driving emissions

0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:51.280
<v Speaker 1>down just by improving their manufacturing process. I think one

0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.080
<v Speaker 1>of the things to point out is that they are

0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.360
<v Speaker 1>driving emissions down by improving the manufacturing process. But there's

0:12:56.480 --> 0:13:00.520
<v Speaker 1>also the option for manufacturers are perhaps located in areas

0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.560
<v Speaker 1>with dirtier grids to use things like p p as

0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:07.439
<v Speaker 1>or unsighte renewable generation to reduce their CEO two emissions.

0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.880
<v Speaker 1>So let's say hypothetically you're sitting on a dirty grid

0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.880
<v Speaker 1>and you're making this battery, but more of the supply

0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:18.720
<v Speaker 1>is near you, so you don't have emissions as high

0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:22.440
<v Speaker 1>associated from actually transporting things to you. Because I think

0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:24.600
<v Speaker 1>you pointed out and here at one point that seven

0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:28.560
<v Speaker 1>percent of the emissions for batteries manufactured in China can

0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.960
<v Speaker 1>just come from physically getting the raw materials to them.

0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:36.000
<v Speaker 1>Are we talking about a delta of enough that it

0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:39.240
<v Speaker 1>would make sense to localize and manufacturing even on a

0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:41.560
<v Speaker 1>dirty grid, or is it better to be on a

0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:43.679
<v Speaker 1>clean grid and then have to transport things to you?

0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:46.720
<v Speaker 1>So I think there's a couple of different questions and

0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:50.960
<v Speaker 1>points to make. Certainly that transportation emissions can be quite high,

0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.840
<v Speaker 1>but it really depends what you're transporting. So in that example,

0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.400
<v Speaker 1>we were looking at when companies transport what's called concentrates,

0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.240
<v Speaker 1>So this is material that's been mind but it hasn't

0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:05.119
<v Speaker 1>been turned into a metal yet. And when you're transporting

0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:08.520
<v Speaker 1>that material from say Australia to China or maybe somewhere

0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.959
<v Speaker 1>in Africa to China, what you find is that concentrate

0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:14.960
<v Speaker 1>only contains maybe six percent of the material you actually

0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:19.440
<v Speaker 1>want and then material that you don't need, and so

0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.120
<v Speaker 1>the emissions associated with transporting that can be quite high.

0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:25.880
<v Speaker 1>But if you were to process that material on site,

0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.520
<v Speaker 1>So using the example of Australia, if you were to

0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.200
<v Speaker 1>mine or in the ground and convert it to the

0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:35.359
<v Speaker 1>lithium form that you need, such as the lithium hydroxide

0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:39.480
<v Speaker 1>and transport that lithium hydroxide to China, actually those transportation

0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:41.120
<v Speaker 1>emissions are gonna be a lot lower than if you're

0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:45.200
<v Speaker 1>transporting that concentrated material. Is pilots are going to play

0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:48.040
<v Speaker 1>a factor in any of this. Policy has the potential

0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:52.080
<v Speaker 1>to be incredibly important on this front, where at the moment,

0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:56.800
<v Speaker 1>around three quarters of battery manufacturing capacity is located located

0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.360
<v Speaker 1>in China, and what we expect to see in what

0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:03.280
<v Speaker 1>we're beginning to see the early signs of his battery

0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.960
<v Speaker 1>manufacturing moving much closer to demand centers such as here

0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.080
<v Speaker 1>in Europe or in the United States. A big part

0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:14.560
<v Speaker 1>of that is likely to be policy where the European

0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:19.160
<v Speaker 1>Commission and policymakers across the world are increasingly aware and

0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:23.200
<v Speaker 1>concerned around life cycle emissions, not just tail pipe permissions,

0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:25.920
<v Speaker 1>and they would like manufacturers to prove that they have

0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.360
<v Speaker 1>acceptable life cycle emissions to be able to participate in

0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.600
<v Speaker 1>the market, because otherwise it would defeat the purpose. And

0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.880
<v Speaker 1>so it's not unreasonable to expect that the European Commission

0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:41.960
<v Speaker 1>or other policymakers will actually demand their manufacturers meet increasingly

0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:45.960
<v Speaker 1>stringent life cycle emission standards in order to operate in

0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.720
<v Speaker 1>a in a market, and that could incentivize manufacturers to

0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:54.240
<v Speaker 1>set up plants in Europe rather than rather than incur

0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.760
<v Speaker 1>these additional sort of carbon costs by having to import

0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.600
<v Speaker 1>into that into the trade block. I think that could

0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.520
<v Speaker 1>be interesting as well. When we're talking about manufacturing in Europe,

0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.280
<v Speaker 1>then how the country or the region that you choose

0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:09.680
<v Speaker 1>to manufacturing affects the price if you're having to buy

0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:12.800
<v Speaker 1>carbon credits to offset some of the emissions that you're producing.

0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.680
<v Speaker 1>On top of that as well, different countries within the

0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.440
<v Speaker 1>region will have different electricity costs. So again using the

0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:21.960
<v Speaker 1>example of Sweden, because they have a lot of hydro there,

0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:25.240
<v Speaker 1>electricity is quite cheap in comparisons somewhere like Poland or

0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.160
<v Speaker 1>Germany where the costs are higher. So doing this study

0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:30.880
<v Speaker 1>put you into a debate. I mean, it puts you

0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.040
<v Speaker 1>in a discussion with academic groups you know, and other

0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.160
<v Speaker 1>organizations around the world. Usually when these groups do these studies,

0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.560
<v Speaker 1>they'll do another one. So what's next for you guys

0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.920
<v Speaker 1>in this line of research. I think the most important

0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.320
<v Speaker 1>thing in terms of in terms of this publication and

0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:47.920
<v Speaker 1>what we found when we reviewed all the other literature

0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:52.520
<v Speaker 1>was actually the lack of transparency was really holding holding

0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:57.920
<v Speaker 1>back the dialogue. Now, what we have done here um

0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:00.840
<v Speaker 1>is we we will be releasing the model over over

0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:03.880
<v Speaker 1>the next month or so, because, as we've talked about,

0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:06.879
<v Speaker 1>there were so many different things that can change the

0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:10.680
<v Speaker 1>ultimate emissions, whether it's the manufacturing process, or the country

0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:13.960
<v Speaker 1>of location or the technology. So by releasing the model

0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:18.280
<v Speaker 1>to our clients, we want to be able to let

0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:22.080
<v Speaker 1>them make those decisions and understand the sensitivity. And I

0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.159
<v Speaker 1>think that that's a big that that is a big

0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.040
<v Speaker 1>shift to what we've seen so far in the literature.

0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.359
<v Speaker 1>So the next step is to get the model out there.

0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:34.040
<v Speaker 1>Huh exactly. So, James, we better wrap up the podcast

0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.760
<v Speaker 1>and send you back to your task. James Logan, thanks

0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.480
<v Speaker 1>for joining us, Thanks for having US, thanks very much.

0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.879
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberguin e F is a service provided by Bloomberg Finance

0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.800
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0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.240
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