1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we are going to 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: talk about single moms because Mother's Day is coming up 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: and we need to give a shout out to the 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: single moms out there. That's right, because not only do 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: we want to honor you from Mother's daytime, but we 8 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: also want to take a look into all of the stuff. 9 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: And I say stuff instead of a four letter word 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: that you have to put up with. Yeah, because if 11 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: there is a group that has been on the receiving 12 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: end of it's just an overwhelming amount of stigma, it 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: is the single mom. And there are more single moms 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: out there than ever before. But before we get specifically 15 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: into single moms, let's just mention that single parenthood in 16 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: general is on the rise. The number of single parents 17 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: in the United States has more than tripled since nineteen 18 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: sixty And to take a look at parents who have 19 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: sole custody of their kids while the other parents lives elsewhere. 20 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: So these are called custodial parents if you want to 21 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 1: get technical. The two thousand nine cents of report said 22 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: that Mother's Account for the majority of these parents at 23 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: eight two point six percent, a level that's basically statistically 24 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: unchanged from what it was. Yeah, and we differentiate custodial 25 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,559 Speaker 1: parents from single moms. When we're talking about single moms, 26 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 1: we're thinking more along the lines of women who were 27 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: specifically unmarried at the time their child was born. Compared 28 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: to custodial parents, where of the moms and for instance, 29 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: were either divorced or separated. So chances are when they 30 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: had their kids they were likely married, right, and you know, 31 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: also take into account that some are widows. Um, a 32 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: third of custodial parents had never been married. But you 33 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: also have to keep mind there's there's all sorts of 34 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: custody agreements that couples both married and unmarried can have. 35 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 1: And so we were talking just about custodial parents, those 36 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: women who have soul custody of their child or children. Um. 37 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: But if you look at the race and ethnicity breakdown 38 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: of these custodial moms, half were non Hispanic white, while 39 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: more than one third were black and eighteen percent were Hispanic. Now, 40 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: if we look at the throw some more single mom 41 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 1: data at you, in two thousand and twelve, there were 42 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: ten point three million single moms. This is single moms 43 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: as distinct from just custodial parents. There were ten point 44 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: three million of them, up from three point four million 45 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy. And just as a side note, single 46 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: dad's you comprise six percent of US households. And side note, 47 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,079 Speaker 1: you also earn more usually than single moms, which is 48 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: an issue we will get into more later in the podcast. Right, 49 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: But also in the census reported that thirty of births 50 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: in that past year were two single moms ages fifteen 51 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: to fifty. Yeah, and there are. That means that there 52 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: are more more single moms at the time of the 53 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: their their first child's birth than ever before. I mean, 54 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: if you just look at women in their early twenties, 55 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: six of all new moms are unmarried. Now, when you 56 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: hear all the state about unmarried women, that doesn't necessarily 57 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: mean that they are having a child in isolation. That 58 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: simply means that they are not married. Right. And so 59 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: when Kristy and I, as we were going through studies 60 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: and articles and things, it's easy to get caught up 61 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: in the wrong path, which is talking about well the 62 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: wrong path for this episode, and and that is to 63 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: talk about unmarried mothers as if they have no support 64 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: system or no partner or or whatever, when in reality, 65 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: if you're unmarried, you you might have a boyfriend, girlfriend, 66 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: network of people who help you. You might be raising 67 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,119 Speaker 1: your child with your parents help, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah, 68 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: and one thing also to not speaking of the wrong path, 69 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: A lot of people might assume that the rise of 70 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: unwed motherhood. Oh God, that just sounds like such an 71 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: hester prinn Yes. Um. Some might think that that, perhaps 72 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: do the popularity of mtvs UH teen mom series, that 73 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: it is the rise of teenage pregnancies that are causing this, 74 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: not at all. In fact, don't get it twisted. Teenage 75 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: pregnancy in the United States is that its lowest point 76 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: in sixty five years. Well so, speaking of a little 77 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: bit of history, Christian found a little tidbit about a 78 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: birth spike. Yeah, according to digital history, the most rapid 79 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: increase and unwed pregnancies took place between ninet forty in 80 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight. And if you also look at UH 81 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: teen pregnancy, it's not the more recent times as we 82 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: just mentioned where you see the spike in them. It 83 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,799 Speaker 1: was actually, for instance, if you look at nineteen seventy 84 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: of childbirth out of wedlock were two unmarried women under 85 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: twenty years old. So let's move out though of statistics 86 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: and into a little bit of history, because I feel 87 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: like any time we hear reports about unwed motherhood childbirth 88 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: out of wedlock, it's always couched in a lot of 89 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: fear and concern about these women and what this means 90 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: and whether or not this just is a signal of 91 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: our moral decline. And so we wanted to look at 92 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: sort of the history of how how how we have 93 00:05:54,839 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: treated unwed mothers culturally, like within our society's how have 94 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: they been treated right? Because a lot of the way 95 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 1: that we view and treat single mothers today does hearken 96 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: back to earlier times when you look at England and Wales. 97 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: For example, um Cambridge historian Samantha Williams looked at an 98 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,559 Speaker 1: early form of welfare called the Old English poor law. 99 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: Under this law, quote unquote, poor relief was given out 100 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: by the local parish two single mothers who, out of 101 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: all of the you know, unfortunate souls that they sold 102 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: out money to, received some of the biggest handouts um 103 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: and if a single mother in this time, this is 104 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: back in um before thy four, when they were a 105 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: bunch of reforms. If a single pregnant mother wanted to 106 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: claim poor relief, all she had to do was go 107 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: before two judicial officers and swear on the fraternity of 108 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: her child's father under oath. Then they would give her 109 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: benefits upfront, and the officials would try to get the 110 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: money to pay for that from the father. But if 111 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: the father had skipped town, or they couldn't find him, 112 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: or he didn't have any money, uh, he was required 113 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: to pay back all the childbirth expenses, the legal expenses 114 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: to pursue him, and the regular maintenance payments for the child. 115 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: If they couldn't get any money out of him, the 116 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: parish itself would support the single mother. Not not surprisingly, 117 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: the parish does not want to support these women. I 118 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: mean a lot of times when we look at the 119 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: stigma of unwed motherhood or just unmarried women having sex 120 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: in general, there's usually an economic side to this, which 121 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: is that if you go away back in time, who 122 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: would support them, it would be the local government and 123 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: or the church. And the church and the local governments 124 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: have a lot of other things they would much rather 125 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: pay for than these women who would have no way 126 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: at the time of advancing themselves and really becoming way 127 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: like gainful wage earners in the same way that say 128 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: an unwed father could be. So they became they were 129 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: they were seen as more these burdens on the system, 130 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: and thus naturally you have the stigma to de incentivize 131 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: these kinds of pregnancies, right. Well, but yeah, exactly, because 132 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: you know, it's not like during this time period these 133 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: women were going to just go out and get a job, 134 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: just bootstrap their way through and pick themselves up thanks 135 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: to just pure grit and pluck. Uh. They they couldn't work. 136 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: I mean, that was not how things were at the time. Yeah. 137 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: The the idea of Liz Lemon in thirty Rock being 138 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: wealthy enough and you know, of a social position enough 139 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: to go to a fancy adoption agency run by Gina 140 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: Davis and possibly adopt a child the most recent of phenomena. 141 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: Rather in the cases of you know, women being getting 142 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: pregnant outside of marriage, you have the rise of mother 143 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: and baby homes. I mean, shuttle the women off, shuttle 144 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: them off with their shame, right, And it was ideally 145 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: to provide support for women um in the nineteenth century 146 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: who wanted or needed to hide their pregnancies. Um, but 147 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: it really was sort of like a shame house, shame central. 148 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: Many of these women were pressured into giving up their children. 149 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: Not all did so that's why it's still relevant to 150 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: our single mother conversation. But these mother and baby homes 151 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: first appeared in England under the guide of the Salvation Army, 152 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: and by nineteen sixty eight there were one hundred and 153 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: seventy two known homes for unmarried mothers, the majority of 154 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: which were run by religious bodies. But they had a 155 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: like a blueprint for these homes because they were predated 156 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: by homes known as penitentiaries or reformatories for quote penitent prostitutes. 157 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: So basically like, get these scary, weirdo limbo women out 158 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: of our way, we don't want to deal with them. Well, 159 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: and they were also shamed in these houses because if 160 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: you get pregnant, it's pretty obvious you've had sex before. 161 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: Oh my god, wait, is that how that happened? I 162 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: think it is. Someone told me that once. And for 163 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 1: girls who would be sent away to these homes, they 164 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: would be forced to, you know, constantly repent for their 165 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: sins and were continually shamed and then on top of that, 166 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: you know they're there. They were usually forced to give 167 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,959 Speaker 1: up their children for adoption. And as the BBC was reporting, 168 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: these homes really turned into they started a purpose because 169 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: these are in the days before in vitro fertilization and 170 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: different kinds of fertility treatments that couples could undergo. So 171 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: you have the Salvation Army and other kinds of organizations 172 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: managing these homes. They profited from all the childless couples 173 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: who could then get babies and then pay money to 174 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: support the organizations. Yeah, they were baby farms basically for 175 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: those women who didn't get to keep their kids. Yeah, 176 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: I mean, and that's focused mostly on the UK, but 177 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: as we will know, people living in the United States, 178 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: this kind of stigma also exists over here. Yeah hello 179 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: scarlet letter. Um. But yeah, moving to America, Linda Gordon 180 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: wrote a book called Pity but not entitled Single Mothers 181 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: in the History of Welfare from nineteen thirty five. That's 182 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: some good bedtime reading. Um. But in a review of 183 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: the book, the writers are talking about how America's modern 184 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: social policies towards single mothers really took shape in the 185 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: early twentieth century. This is really during the progressive era 186 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 1: when you know, there's that whole christ and I've talked 187 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: about this before in the podcast, there's a whole worry 188 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: about immigrants and women and children and safety and hygiene, 189 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: and motherhood was a part of that. Motherhood was valorized 190 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: by society during this time, including policymakers, um. But part 191 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: of that whole valorizing of motherhood was believing that you 192 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: belonged in your special mommy bubble and that it should 193 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: be full time work. And so if you were a 194 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: single mother and you were quote unquote deserving of it, 195 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: then you should in fact receive aid. But where this 196 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: hurts poor working class women is that a lot of times, uh, 197 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: their upper class counterparts during this progressive era would construct 198 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: these like rescue fantasies kind of in the media, like 199 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: in magazines and whatever, um to to throw support behind 200 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: aid for young mothers. However, these rescue fantasies were constructed 201 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: around the story of a widow who didn't or couldn't 202 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: work and she needed help, not working class women who 203 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: maybe weren't widows. They had, you know, oh my gosh, 204 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: had sexual relations with a man and then had to 205 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: work for a living, Yeah, and had to work for 206 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: a living again in an era when they there would 207 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: be few, to know outlets for them to earn wages 208 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: comparable to what men could make. It can truly become 209 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: not just self sufficient, but really climb up economically. And 210 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: so all of that that is compounded by, you know, 211 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 1: the stigma of the outward visibility that they have had 212 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: sex outside the bounds of wedlock, and I mean talk 213 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: about a scarlet letter situation. These women have been stigmatized 214 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: by society for pretty much as long as, at least 215 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: in the United States, as long as our society has existed. Yeah, 216 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: And a lot of writers focus on the nineteen sixties 217 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: as the turning point. But it's not like, I mean 218 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: just we're in and it's not like all of our 219 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: attitudes about unmarried mothers single mothers have just dissolved. I mean, yes, 220 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: it started to become more less less of a taboo, 221 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: more of an accepted thing in the nineteen seventies when 222 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: we have all of these other social movements going on, 223 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: but by no means we're unmarried or single mothers just 224 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: suddenly accepted into society's embrace exactly. And one thing that 225 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 1: jumped out to me when just looking around at different 226 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: articles on the rise of single motherhood today, seems like, 227 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: at least among the more conservative sources that I ran across, 228 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: that the real concern was the shock of single motherhood 229 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: now among white women. It was like, if you you know, 230 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: we have a long time I mean going back to 231 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: that progressive era where there was all of this like 232 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: racist panic over the influx of immigrants, and you have 233 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: the development of the welfare system and how all of 234 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: that gets kind of tied together where it's like, oh, well, 235 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: you know, these people are a little bit more destitutes, 236 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: so we just need to help them out a little bit, 237 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: but not too much, you know, because we don't want 238 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: them to take our jobs and stuff. But now that 239 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: it's also white women getting involved, it's just I mean, 240 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: the panic that has taken place is it's kind of 241 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: it's very telling. Yeah, I think that whole kind of 242 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: changing demographic trend. Uh, the idea that we can't easily 243 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: pigeonhole single unwed mothers as being one monolithic block that 244 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: we can pity, I think that throws a lot of people. 245 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: And I think that, well, I know that attitudes today 246 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: are generally pretty disapproving, regardless of who the single mother is. Yeah, 247 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: it's fascinating to see how despite the statistical rise of 248 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: unmarried women having kids, whether that's from the get go 249 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: or you know, post divorce, whatever it might be, our 250 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: attitudes have not shifted along with that change. Coming from 251 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: the Pew Research Center in January two thousand, eleven, six 252 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: of Americans said that the trend towards single women having 253 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: children is bad for society, and sixty one percent say 254 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: that a child needs both a mother and a father 255 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: to grow up happily. Right, and in line with that 256 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: historical attitude of single mothers are people who need to 257 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: be pitied. In that same study, they found that the 258 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: public believes that children of single parents face more challenges 259 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: than other children. Thirty of respondents said that they face 260 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: a lot more challenges, and another forty say they face 261 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: just a few more challenges. And I think there are 262 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: a lot. I mean, we saw just from just anecdotal 263 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: evidence about various single mom bloggers and things like that. Um, 264 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: a lot of women out there would disagree. A lot 265 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: of women who are out there raising kids alone would say, hey, 266 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: we all face challenges, Okay, but you know, my family 267 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: is a whole family. Husband or no husband, Yeah, I mean, 268 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: and the whole issue of children need both a mother 269 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: and a father to grow up happily. That is also 270 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: an argument that is typically used against LGBT families, for instance. 271 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: And all of the studies and there are now a 272 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: lot of them, and they are methodologically sound and all 273 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: conclude that actually, no, it is not the issue of 274 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 1: a mother and a father. What really you know, the 275 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: strongest correlate to a child's positive outcome has obviously nothing 276 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: to do with your parents sexual orientation. But it boils 277 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: down to resources, kinds of resources that kids have access to. 278 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: And yeah, a lot of times two is better than 279 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: one because two people can offer a lot of times 280 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,959 Speaker 1: more resources than other people can't. But to say collectively 281 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: single moms, you are just doing a disservice to you know, 282 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: all of the millions of your children out there is also, 283 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: uh an unfair generalization. And we're going to get into 284 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: those resources, the income issues, education, childcare, etcetera that single 285 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: moms are working with when we come right back from 286 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: a quick break, so we're talking about resources available to 287 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: families really, um, and how it's those resources, whether that's 288 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: educational attainment or whether that is financial resources, how those 289 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: affect children more so than just the issue of single 290 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: motherhood itself. Um. So, there was this Pew research study 291 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: from looking at quote unquote breadwinner moms, and these are 292 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: both single and married moms who make more than either 293 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 1: their spouse or partner, or who just make the most 294 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: money in the household. Um. And so they found that 295 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: there are a record number of moms with kids under 296 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: eighteen who were breadwinners in their households. That is split 297 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 1: between women who earned more than husbands and single moms 298 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: who are the majority at sixty. And the thing about 299 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: the breadwinner stuff is that, oh, yeah, that's great. The 300 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: woman's making a lot of money, she's supporting her family. 301 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: That's awesome. However, is a major income gap. Married breadwinner 302 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: moms earned a median income of eighty grand in twenty eleven, 303 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: while single breadwinner moms earned a median income of twenty 304 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: three thousand dollars. And so, for a little perspective, The 305 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: Atlantic read an article about this um in September and 306 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: wrote that for single and married women without children, the 307 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: average difference in income in with only eight hundred and 308 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: fifty seven dollars, almost inconsequential compared to the difference between 309 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 1: single and married mothers. Yeah, I mean once you once 310 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: you toss kids into the mix, that that picture absolutely changes. 311 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: And if you look though at the demographics, the married 312 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: breadwinner moms are disproportionately white, a little bit older, and 313 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: college educated, the same kind of demographics that are typically 314 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: linked with higher incomes among women. Because unfortunately, in our 315 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: society today, I mean, non groups are still often marginalized, 316 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: and when you look at socioeconomic data there there's a 317 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: lot of marginalization that happens in that as well. And 318 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: one giant myth though about single moms, and especially when 319 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: you look at single moms and that median income of 320 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: twenty three dollars, is this misguided idea that single moms 321 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: just don't work all that much. There just kind of 322 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,479 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're just freeloading off the government as 323 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: much as they can. But that is not the case. 324 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: Um of single mothers are in full time jobs, and 325 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: that does not include the women who are probably also 326 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: in part time jobs as well, who are balancing work 327 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: with childcare. And on top of that, if you look 328 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: at those employed moms, single moms in the United States. 329 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: According to some data that came out in December of 330 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, American single moms work more hours yet 331 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: have much higher poverty rates than their peers in other 332 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: high income countries. Basically, it looks at the condition of 333 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 1: single moms in the United States compared with a similarly 334 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: wealthy countries and found that in a lot of ways, 335 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: single moms do not have it easy, specifically in the US, 336 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: right and if we're looking at those poverty rates in particular, 337 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: this is a sensus data from UH September UH single 338 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: mother families in poverty increased for the fourth straight year 339 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: to four point one million, or forty one point five 340 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: per cent, and that coincides with longer term trends of 341 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: declining marriage and out of wedlock births. But there are 342 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: a lot of things you have to consider. There's a 343 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: lot of subtext here. It's not just like oh this 344 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: you have a baby and you don't work in your 345 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: lah There's a lot there's a lot of factors that 346 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: influence this stuff. There was an International Labor Organization report 347 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 1: that The Atlantic reported on talking about how the US 348 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: is the only country in the top fifteen most competitive 349 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: ones that does not mandate paid maternity leave, paid sickly, 350 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: and does not guarantee paid vacation time new parents in 351 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: the US or guaranteed their jobs for twelve weeks after 352 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: the arrival of the new baby under the Family Medical 353 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: Leave Act of But that's it. It's not like you're 354 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: getting paid. And so imagine how hard that struggle is 355 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: to maintain a full time job and you're a single 356 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 1: mom and you need to collect a paycheck, you need 357 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: to take care of your kid. Like I mean, these 358 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: are the issues that we've talked about before too, just 359 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: in general talking about working moms. I mean, trying to 360 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: balance the two, even if you do have a partner 361 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: is challenging in and of itself. But that child care 362 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,239 Speaker 1: piece is so huge, and reading about this reminded me 363 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: of an anecdote that we read a while ago for UM. 364 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 1: I think it was our episode on daycare at workplaces, 365 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: whether or not bringing your kids to work is good 366 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: for the bottom line. And there, I mean one of 367 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: many stories about how single working mom, how you know, 368 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: her kid gets sick, she has to stay home, loses 369 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: her job because of it, or vice versa. You have 370 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: so many horror stories of say, a mom who might 371 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 1: be out of work is looking for a job while 372 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 1: she can't just leave her kids at home, So but 373 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: how can she go to drop them off at daycare? 374 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: Because daycare is so wildly expensive? Um. There is an 375 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: article and Think Progress about this talking about how the 376 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: Department of Health and Human Services considers spending ten of 377 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: a family's income on childcare is the benchmark of affordability 378 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 1: when it comes to single parents. The average cost of 379 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: center based infantcare is more than twenty of the median 380 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: income in every state. So it's it's impossible. I mean, 381 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: these women are often up against incredible economic odds. Yeah, 382 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: and and studies have shown not to sound completely vague, 383 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: but I mean, studies have shown that women who live 384 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: close to a family core fair better in the workplace. 385 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: They they can go get jobs and and find those 386 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: resources because they have an extended family to help care 387 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: for the child. Women who are more on their own 388 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: don't have a mom, a grandma somebody to go to 389 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: help take care of little Johnny. You know, they are 390 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: going to have a harder time maintaining that high paying job, right, 391 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: I mean, and especially in these emergency situations. If somebody 392 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: gets sick, for instance, I mean that can put the job, 393 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: you know, a woman's job immediately in peril. Um. So 394 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: let's talk about speaking of kids and emergency situations. A 395 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: lot of the hue and cry about the rise of 396 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: single motherhood is that it's terrible for children. And this 397 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: also gets to that issue of resources of you know, 398 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: two parents better than one because they're all These studies 399 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: showing that kids of single parents and it usually focus 400 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: on focuses on children of single moms because we make 401 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: up a bulk of the single parents. These studies find 402 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,959 Speaker 1: that kids are often at a higher risk for mental 403 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: and emotional health problems. Right. For instance, a two thousand 404 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: three Swedish study found that kids of single moms were 405 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: twice as likely to have psychiatric illness, attempts suicide, or 406 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: have alcohol related problems as those in two parent households, 407 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: and the researchers said that many of the differences, though, 408 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: could be accounted for by the economic and social circumstances 409 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: of the parents, as measured by social benefits and renting 410 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 1: and things like that. Um, you know, kids, these kids 411 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: are also struggling with lower grades, more absenteeism, higher school 412 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: dropout rates. But like we've said, I'm trying to drive 413 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: home how important it is to keep in mind the 414 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: different factors that could affect this, because not all single 415 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: moms have always been single, Because a lot of single 416 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: moms are divorced, and if you're having kind of an 417 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: acrimonious split, sometimes kids get pulled into that conflict, and 418 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: that can have more of an impact than just being 419 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: a single parent in and of itself. Now, since Stata 420 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: also show though speaking of divorced parents, that they tend 421 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: to have higher educational attainment, they're likelier to own their home, 422 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: and are less likely to be poor than never married parents. 423 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 1: So that's a degree of stability that's tied with children's success. 424 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 1: And so again, it seems like when we're talking about 425 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: single moms, a lot of times we keep the judgment 426 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: on these women as people for you know, putting their 427 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: kids through this awful life choice apparently that they've made. 428 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,719 Speaker 1: Whereas when you really dig into the data, the coralates 429 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: aren't too The moms aren't so much to the parents, 430 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: but are to all these socio economic factors that typically 431 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: preclude people towards success, right, such as education. Right. Uh, 432 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: we read one post over on Slate by Pamela Gwinn 433 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: Kripkey back in January, UM who is a single mom. Uh. 434 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: She was married when um she and her husband had 435 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: their two girls, but she believes her kids are all 436 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,959 Speaker 1: the more resilient, tough, and independent thanks to growing up in, 437 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 1: as she puts, in an all girl house. They're forced 438 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: to look out for themselves. They learn the meaning of thrift, etcetera, etcetera. 439 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: UM and plus h Chripkey argues that single moms are 440 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: aware of the stereotypes that exist out there that they're 441 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: going to fail their children, and so they work all 442 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: the harder, not too And so we have to remember 443 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: that there's like all different shades of of family dynamics, 444 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: and that it is not the fact that the mother 445 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 1: is single, that she is unmarried that is going to 446 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,719 Speaker 1: affect the child negatively. There's so many things that positively 447 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: and negatively affect children. Yeah, I mean, and you could 448 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: also spin off into studies talking about how um you know, 449 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: parents who unmarried, parents who might have multiple boyfriends or 450 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: girlfriends coming through the house that's bad for kids, or 451 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: how um parents who are unmarried at the time that 452 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 1: their kids are born are more likely to eventually split up. 453 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: That's bad for the kids. I mean, there's so many 454 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: different ways to slice and dice this, but clearly, as 455 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: Katie Royfee lover Hater talks about in The New York Times, 456 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: you can't just judge single moms are so many of them, 457 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: Like you said, there's so many different shades of all 458 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: these family dynamics. I mean, she's a single mom with 459 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: two kids by two different dads, to which sociologists would say, oh, 460 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: that is the worst. You know, the more the more 461 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: parents you have out there, the worst is for the stability. 462 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: But she says no, absolutely, I mean, these kids are 463 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: benefiting from what she calls the variety and richness of 464 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: different kinds of families, and that her kids are totally fine. 465 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: But she also acknowledges and this is important too. And 466 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: I have a feeling as the same situation as that 467 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: Slate writer, where she is writing this from a position 468 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: of privilege as an n y U professor who also 469 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: gets gigs with The New York Times living in Manhattan 470 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: and can afford to do so. Her situation as a 471 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: single mom with two different dads much different than a 472 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,479 Speaker 1: single mom with two different dads living in Mobile, Alabama. Yes, 473 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: and Naomi Khan and June Carbon, who are the authors 474 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: of Marriage Markets How inequality is remaking the American family, 475 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: would argue that while roy Fee is well off and 476 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: is successful and our kids are happy, healthy and provided 477 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: for UM, they they do look at those lower income 478 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: families in lower income communities and they argue that those 479 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: women should stay single because they were using the example 480 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: of this one UH no longer couple UM in a 481 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: low low income community basically sent talking about how the 482 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: mom didn't want to have to drag this dead weight, 483 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: basically this dead weight of her boyfriend behind her and 484 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: was much better off um just being on her own 485 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: rais sing their child relying instead on her mother for 486 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: help with childcare while she went to work and earned 487 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: a living and uh. These authors kind of dive into 488 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: statistics about a higher percentage of men having trouble finding 489 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: employment these days, blue collar men without a college degree 490 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: having it worse. And they also talk about how people 491 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: in working class socio economic groups are less likely than 492 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: people in higher uh, higher earning groups are less likely 493 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: to report that marriage works out for most people they know, 494 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: and so they talk about like, well, why would people 495 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: in these groups get married, aren't they better off just 496 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: staying as single moms raising their kids the best way 497 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: they know how. They have control over bedtime, they have 498 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: control over childcare, they have total say over everything in 499 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: the child's life. But then how do you sort of 500 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: resolve that with these other findings that of the resources 501 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: of two people bringing two sets of resources into you know, 502 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: a child's life better than one. But I guess that 503 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: depends on what resources you're bringing. If you're bringing, say, 504 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: you know, an alcohol problem in credit card debt, then 505 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: those are not resources that you need. Right In the 506 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: example couple that the authors were citing, they were basically 507 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: saying that the mother had pretty pretty good stable resources, 508 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: She had a good family behind her who was willing 509 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: to help out, whereas the father of the child did 510 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: have issues with money. He couldn't even afford, you know, 511 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: if he wanted to pursue custodial parent rights, he really 512 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: didn't even have the money or ability to pursue that 513 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: in the courts. So it's kind of this whole thing 514 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: of like, Okay, yes to parent, resources are better. But 515 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: then they're talking about how in some dynamics, perhaps these 516 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: strong stable resources of just a single mother are better 517 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: than throwing kind of a deadbeat dad into the mix, right, 518 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: And I mean, this is the theme that is emerging 519 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: so much in this more contemporary conversation on single motherhood, 520 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: which is the issue of class. Because now what it 521 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: looks like is that on one end of the socioeconomic spectrum, 522 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: we have a lot of single moms who are unfairly 523 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: stereotyped as welfare queens and just you know, just taxing 524 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: our system and really in reality getting zero help that 525 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: they need to make sure that they're able to you know, 526 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: rise up out of that situation and to have kids 527 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: who can you know, improve their lot as well. And 528 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: then on the other end of the socio economic spectrum, 529 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: you have single mothers by choice, which you know, are 530 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: the Tina phase in Dirty Rock or baby Mama, who 531 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: are self sufficient economically and are going out of their 532 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: way planning. You know, they don't want to get married, 533 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: but they want to have a kid because they're wealthy 534 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: enough to do so. But we treat we don't we 535 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: treat them so differently, you know, like oh, yeah, look 536 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: what you did there? Yeah, and then and then oh 537 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: look at you, look at you brave of you, what 538 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: a what a liberal woman you are? You know, like, 539 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem it doesn't seem right that one group 540 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: is so stigmatized but the other is just lauded. Where 541 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: really what's going on is a widening and widening and 542 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: widening gap between socioeconomic classes in the United States. But 543 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: whatever end of the spectrum on, you're being accused of 544 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: being greedy, being selfish, being a free lit or like 545 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: we talked about, it doesn't matter if you're Royfy or 546 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: if you're the example couple in con and Carbon's article, 547 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: you're somehow like gaming the system. And Royfy does write 548 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: about how like, oh, you're just jealous, like that's her thing, Like, uh, well, 549 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: I'm not playing your marriage game and you're just jealous 550 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: of me. But I mean, I think it's it's so 551 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: much more than that. And as we've shown, I mean, 552 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: this goes back hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years 553 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: viewing single, unmarried mothers as suspicious and outside of our 554 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: normal social bounds basically, and so to combat some of 555 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: those single mom stereotypes. You know, Kristen mentioned single Mothers 556 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: by Choice. Um, that's an actual group that was founded 557 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: in by psychotherapist Jane Matt's um and their goal is 558 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: basically to not only provide support and information to single 559 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: women who are considering or have chosen single motherhood, but 560 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: to sort of advocate for tearing down those those ugly stereotypes. 561 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: Yeah about what about the selfishness that yeah, I'm not sure, uh, 562 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: you know, the selfish argument, whether it's about women who 563 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 1: are choosing to have a kid without a man in 564 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: the picture, or whether it's about women choosing not to 565 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: have kids like I I the selfish argument around children 566 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: is is always sort of ugly. Yeah. Well, and it's 567 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: just the suspicion with which we, like and by way, 568 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: I mean societally see these two groups as either suspicious 569 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: that you didn't make enough of a choice or suspicious 570 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: that you were too calculated, Like it doesn't ye so 571 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: many so many advocates for single motherhood. Um and it's 572 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: the same kind of argument you hear among gay and 573 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: lesbian couples that like, why are you telling me that 574 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 1: I'm uh like too casual about this or like I'm 575 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,240 Speaker 1: not going into it the right or regular way. Shouldn't 576 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: we be saying like, oh, obviously, that child is so 577 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: wanted if I'm if I'm putting in the time, energy 578 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: and sometimes the money depending on it's if it's an 579 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,760 Speaker 1: adoption or or whatever. You know, shouldn't we be arguing 580 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: that I'm like super wanting this child and then I've 581 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: thought a lot about it. If I'm going to go 582 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: it alone. Well, And that's a big reason why a 583 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: lot of studies looking at LGBT parenting have found that 584 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: the child outcomes because we are now like a generation 585 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: or even getting into second generation of kids who have 586 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: grown up with gay parents finding that not only do 587 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: they fear just as well as kids with straight parents, 588 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: but sometimes they do even better because of that you know, 589 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: highly wanted factor, if it's the support that your parents 590 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 1: or parents throw behind you. But the one big question 591 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 1: mark in this whole conversation, Caroline, that left me so 592 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: wanting from all of the things that we were reading 593 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,959 Speaker 1: about this single motherhood issue is where are the men 594 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: in this conversation? Because I mean, we mentioned, like, you 595 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: know that those authors who posit that you know, it's 596 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: a single moms in lower socio economic brackets better off 597 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: single because of the potential of encountering deadbeat dads. But 598 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: where are where are the men in this conversation, because 599 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: they have to be at least half of this equation 600 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: biologically to to create these children of single moms. So 601 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 1: why aren't why aren't we engaging more men in this conversation? 602 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: Why aren't I don't know, like, why aren't they being 603 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: pulled more into solutions for it? Because single moms are 604 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: stigmatized so much and yet they're at least caring for 605 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: the children. Yeah, I mean, you know, there there's discussions around, like, 606 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: like we touched on earlier as far as um, single 607 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: moms historically being perceived as having their hand out, whereas uh, 608 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,720 Speaker 1: single dads tend to earn more and maybe they're seen 609 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 1: as being more stable or something, being able to provide 610 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: more for their for their kids. I don't know, but 611 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: um historians Shirley Swain and We're Not how point out 612 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: in their book Single Mothers and their Children, Disposal, Punishment 613 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: and Survival in Australia that single motherhood is a normative 614 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: condition faced by any sexually active heterosexual woman, and the 615 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: stigma comes from patriarchal attempts to control women's behavior. So 616 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: if you're a single dad, it's kind of like, hey, 617 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: good for you, good for you for taking care of 618 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,479 Speaker 1: this kid, Like that's awesome for stepping up to the plate. 619 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: If you're single mom, you're like totally outside the periphery 620 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 1: of normal society and what is normal for women. And 621 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,280 Speaker 1: yet statistically, more than ever before, that's just not the case. 622 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: And I don't think that we're going to see the 623 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 1: pendulum swing back at all. And I don't think that 624 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 1: that's necessary, necessarily a problem. I don't think that this 625 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,800 Speaker 1: is a sign that the moral fabric of our nation 626 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: is quickly unraveling. So I think that, if anything, it's 627 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: high time to stop stigmatizing these women and really start 628 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: taking a closer look at the underlying issues that might 629 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: perpetuate some of the negative outcomes associated with single motherhood, 630 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: childcare care exactly. I mean, they're all of these resources 631 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: that that women that mothers, whether they're single or not, 632 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: need and aren't being given. And even just education for kids, 633 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: I mean, just improving the education system in general is 634 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: going to give kids a leg up, no matter what 635 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: how much money their parents or parent makes. So we 636 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: want to hear though from single moms single dad's out there. 637 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: I know that you have been largely left out of 638 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: this conversation, and I just said, well, where are they? 639 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: Like I said, we're not talking about you. But that's 640 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 1: just because when it comes to single parenting, you know, 641 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 1: it is overwhelmingly women and they're usually the focus. But 642 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: we know that you're out there too. So let's start 643 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: a conversation, shall we. Let's start a dialogue. Mom Stuff 644 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com is where you can email us. 645 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 646 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,399 Speaker 1: send us a Facebook message as well, and we've got 647 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,959 Speaker 1: a couple of Facebook messages to share with you right now. 648 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: So I've got a letter here from guy named Jerry, 649 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: and this is a little unconventional. We've never done this 650 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: on Stuff. I've never told you before, but Jerry was 651 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: writing us because he writes, I'm a sixteen year old 652 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: gay high school senior from a rural area on the 653 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: Big Island of Hawaii. I'm a long time listener and 654 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 1: everyone asked me why I listened to a show mainly 655 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: focused on female topics, but nevertheless, I absolutely love it. 656 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,879 Speaker 1: I've never written in before, but I'm at a life 657 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,919 Speaker 1: changing time in my life and I've come to ask 658 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,839 Speaker 1: for assistance. So less than a month ago, I got 659 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: accepted to UC Berkeley. Congratulations, Jerry, He writes, although I'm 660 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: only sixteen, I'm graduating a year early by taking my 661 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,239 Speaker 1: junior and senior years concurrently. I've done exceptionally well, considering 662 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 1: that I'm an LGBT teen in an isolated area living 663 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: with my single mom and three younger sisters. Were very poor, 664 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 1: and throughout my high school years we've lived in a 665 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: tent in a shack like home, and he goes on 666 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: to say that UC Berkeley has offered him as much 667 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: financial aid as they can, but he still has to 668 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: pay over twenty dollars for the first year because he 669 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,280 Speaker 1: is an out of state student. He writes, I'm currently 670 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 1: applying to as many scholarships and grants as possible to 671 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: pay the high tuition cost, and so to help fill 672 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,799 Speaker 1: the app he has started a go fund me dot 673 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: com campaign to help make his dreams of higher education possible. 674 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: And I went and checked out his campaign, and so 675 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: I just wanted to give a shout out to Jerry 676 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 1: and if you listeners would like to donate, I think 677 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: the levels are like five dollars or twenty dollars is 678 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 1: very affordable, but to help this LGBT kid from Hawaii 679 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: go to Berkeley. You can go to go fund me 680 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: dot com slash making Berkeley possible and donate to someone 681 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 1: who sounds like a really fantastic kid. And Jerry, I 682 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: hope that you're able to go to Berkeley and all 683 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: of your dreams come true. Good luck. Yeah. Well, I 684 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Dennis in response to our 685 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,439 Speaker 1: Women in Gaming episode, and he was talking about the parallels, 686 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: uh and overlap with LGBT people in gaming, and as 687 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: he points out, especially since women are obviously part of 688 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: the LGBT gaming community as well. He says, I love 689 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: video games, from violent horror games like Resident Evil to 690 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 1: things that are stretched to call games like Animal Crossing, 691 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: because I've grown up playing games and with these characters 692 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: and have grown to love their stories, even if some 693 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,919 Speaker 1: of them future annoying tropes against women. But I feel 694 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,359 Speaker 1: like my credibility as a gamer's question because I am 695 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: gay online and sometimes in person as well. I see 696 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,240 Speaker 1: it as an even larger issue to many progaming journalists 697 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: at Polygon, Kotaku, and game Spot who are women and 698 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,800 Speaker 1: queer in one way or another. See the whole debacle 699 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 1: behind Caroline Petit not giving Grand theft Auto five have 700 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: a perfect score and pointing out its racism, homophobia, misogyny, 701 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 1: and transphobia, not to mention the dismissal of these issues 702 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,279 Speaker 1: by major gaming publications web comics like Penny Arcade, giving 703 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,720 Speaker 1: gamers ammunition to be misogynistic and transphobic, despite micro Hulicks 704 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,839 Speaker 1: blanket apology. In my opinion, the PA communities continued use 705 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 1: of transphobia and rape jokes in their comment section shows 706 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 1: the apology and unheard by the people who needed to 707 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: hear it most. I haven't really stepped into the random 708 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 1: matchup worlds of Halo or similar games because I'm more 709 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,439 Speaker 1: of a Nintendo fanboy. But the few times that I have, 710 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 1: I've been harassed for being gay. It usually starts when 711 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,839 Speaker 1: people will throw a homophobic slur towards me and I 712 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 1: either say yes I am and people being able to 713 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,800 Speaker 1: figure out I'm gay from my voice and start harassing 714 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:11,919 Speaker 1: me for it, or I just quit the match out 715 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 1: of anger from being harassed. Now, any random online matchups 716 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 1: I play, or games in which there is no verbal 717 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,920 Speaker 1: communication with other players unless you're friends with one another, 718 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: like Pokemon, I just don't want to deal with constantly 719 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: being called slurs in the place I go to escape reality, 720 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: reality being a place where I'm often street harassed for 721 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 1: being gay. I don't want to stop playing games, but 722 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,239 Speaker 1: I also don't want people who love gaming to feel 723 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: like they can't be in a safe place to play. 724 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: I hope one day we can be safe with our 725 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 1: identities as women and LGBT people or people of color. 726 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,399 Speaker 1: So keep doing what you're doing, because you're doing it well. 727 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 1: So thank you, Dennis. We appreciate your letter, and I 728 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,640 Speaker 1: would like to point out I think that it's Dennis's 729 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: second letter. We have read Dennis here and all scar 730 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,279 Speaker 1: your Smenty all Star, as is everyone who writes into us. 731 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,359 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com is where you can 732 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: send us your letters. Can find all the links for 733 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,439 Speaker 1: our social media's, podcast, blogs, and videos. There's one place 734 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:10,240 Speaker 1: to go. It's stuff Mom Never Told You dot com 735 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is 736 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: it how Stuff Works dot com