WEBVTT - How Computers Dream with David Holz [Rerelease]

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<v Speaker 1>Today's episode of What Future with Joshua Topolski is a

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<v Speaker 1>re release. It's a really interesting listen. We will be

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<v Speaker 1>back next week with an all new episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening, hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>your host, Joshua Topolski. Now, I don't know if you

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<v Speaker 2>have been following any of this stuff with this new

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<v Speaker 2>artificial intelligence machine learning driven AI driven bots, So there's

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<v Speaker 2>several bots that do this. One has recently become widely

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<v Speaker 2>available to the public. It's a bot called mid Journey.

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<v Speaker 2>From a user perspective, From a person's perspective, what you

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<v Speaker 2>can do is you can sit down and type something

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<v Speaker 2>and it will generate based on all of the images

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<v Speaker 2>it's ever looked at, which are billions of images on

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<v Speaker 2>the Internet and wherever else. Databases they feed it and

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<v Speaker 2>stuff like that. It will generate what it thinks you

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<v Speaker 2>want from a prompt from a sentence. You actually use

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<v Speaker 2>it through Discord, which is like kind of a chat

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<v Speaker 2>you know network, which was popularized by gamers. But Discord

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<v Speaker 2>you can basically go and talk to the discord bought

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<v Speaker 2>from mid Journey, and you can say, for instance, Dracula

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<v Speaker 2>explaining his vamporism, to a crowd of onlookers, and it

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<v Speaker 2>will generate four different images that it thinks capture your idea,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're insanely accurate. They look like somebody painted a

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<v Speaker 2>picture of something that you wanted. It is essentially like

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<v Speaker 2>the closest thing to being able to visualize a dream.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know that I've ever had my mind more

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<v Speaker 2>blown by anything a computer has ever done than this

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<v Speaker 2>piece of software. I mean, it is hard to articulate

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<v Speaker 2>what it feels like when you write a sentence of

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<v Speaker 2>something that seems completely impossible and then see a pretty

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<v Speaker 2>good representation of it in a matter of like thirty seconds,

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<v Speaker 2>forty five seconds, maybe a minute, to see your first

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<v Speaker 2>four versions of something. Let's just say you're not an artist,

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<v Speaker 2>You're not a designer. You're not going to make your

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<v Speaker 2>living off of doing paintings for magazines or whatever. You're

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<v Speaker 2>just a person from a pure, like thrill level as

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<v Speaker 2>a person, I think this is fucking amazing. It is

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<v Speaker 2>like the most fascinating and most amazing thing I've almost

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<v Speaker 2>maybe I've ever done on a computer. And I've done

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of stuff on the computer, you know what

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, But this is like trippy I mean it's

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<v Speaker 2>fucking insane. It's like, like I said, it's sort of

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<v Speaker 2>like as close as you might get to you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you had a dream, and you can then see the dream.

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<v Speaker 2>I would also say, what's interesting is that it is

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<v Speaker 2>like a computer dreaming. I mean, what it is is

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<v Speaker 2>you giving This is like what I consider to be

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<v Speaker 2>fairly abstry input to a computer and the computer deciding

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<v Speaker 2>making all of these really creative decisions about what that

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<v Speaker 2>thing should look like. Anyhow, I'm not an artist. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not a painter. I have been working with mid Journey

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<v Speaker 2>to create art for this podcast, and you can see

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<v Speaker 2>some of the prompts for these, some of the ones

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<v Speaker 2>that I did science fiction paperback book cover about society

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<v Speaker 2>in the future. One of them is a phrase from

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<v Speaker 2>Blade Runner attack chips on fire off the shoulder of Oryon,

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<v Speaker 2>which is Rucker. Howard has this monologue at the end

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<v Speaker 2>of Blade Runner, and that's one of the things he says,

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<v Speaker 2>and it created imagery based on that sentence, Dracula explaining

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<v Speaker 2>his vamporism to a crowd of onlookers. You can see

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<v Speaker 2>several variations. I mean, they are fucking beautiful pieces of art.

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<v Speaker 2>In my opinion, like legitimately beautiful pieces of art. There

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<v Speaker 2>is some art in figuring out how to get this

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<v Speaker 2>thing to do what you want, or to at least

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<v Speaker 2>create a result. Is that is pleasing? Now? Anyhow, what's

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<v Speaker 2>interesting about this? There's many interesting things about it, and

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<v Speaker 2>like I'll just go down the list of some of

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<v Speaker 2>the ones that I'm thinking about. First off, there's obviously

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<v Speaker 2>this question about art, like what is art and is

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<v Speaker 2>this art? And what kind of art is it? Meaning

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<v Speaker 2>As a guy who who's run a lot of newsrooms

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<v Speaker 2>and a lot of publications, I could see this is

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<v Speaker 2>very functionally important in like an organization that needs original

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<v Speaker 2>art for things, but maybe it doesn't have the budget

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<v Speaker 2>or the time to generate original art for everything they'd

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<v Speaker 2>like to generate original art for right, So there's an

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<v Speaker 2>implication there, like for me that I'm like, oh, that's

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting, Right, that's really exciting. I follow a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of designers and artists on Instagram and they've been talking

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<v Speaker 2>about this for a while. I mean, this opens up

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<v Speaker 2>an enormous amount of serious questions, like, for instance, the

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<v Speaker 2>bots are obviously taking content and material and analyzing it

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<v Speaker 2>and learning from it, and in some cases, replicating it

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<v Speaker 2>in some way from a real artists right from historic

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<v Speaker 2>you know, pieces of art up to modern pieces of art.

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<v Speaker 2>As far as I know, in essence, these ais can

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<v Speaker 2>go and look at and then learn from. But there's

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<v Speaker 2>this little bit of controversy, or not a little bit,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe a lot from some artists who say this is

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's theft of our work. You know, they're

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<v Speaker 2>using things we've created without any license to do so

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<v Speaker 2>and creating new works based on it. That argument, to

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<v Speaker 2>me is a little bit like every artist uses somebody

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<v Speaker 2>else's work to create what they do. I mean, as

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<v Speaker 2>we know, remixing in music has become one of the

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<v Speaker 2>baseline ways you make music now, no pun intended on baseline.

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<v Speaker 2>So the idea of like sampling somebody else's art to

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<v Speaker 2>create something new is not new. I think what's sort

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<v Speaker 2>of insane and threatening on a bunch of different levels

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<v Speaker 2>is that this is creating real art, really interesting pieces

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<v Speaker 2>of art and imagery that have real applications, whether it's

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<v Speaker 2>hanging in a gallery or using for an illustration in

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<v Speaker 2>a magazine or whatever, and it is just removing a

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<v Speaker 2>person completely. Basically, this image that I created for the

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<v Speaker 2>podcast is a perfect example, I could sit with a

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<v Speaker 2>designer and tell them about what I wanted and show

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<v Speaker 2>them examples can you make something like this, and we

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<v Speaker 2>could work through it over and over again until we

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<v Speaker 2>got to something that fell right. The idea that I

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<v Speaker 2>could just say it and it could be like, this

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<v Speaker 2>could be it. This could be the art for the show.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's one job that a artist is not going

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<v Speaker 2>to get now, like for sure, right, there's an implication

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<v Speaker 2>for people who work in these fields that is way

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<v Speaker 2>different than what we're talking about. Like I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>at a pure human level, this is thrilling, but on

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<v Speaker 2>the flip side of that, there's entire industries that potentially

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<v Speaker 2>are wiped out by this. What does this open up,

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<v Speaker 2>I think is a question that I don't know the

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<v Speaker 2>answer to, which is, in five or ten years, this

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<v Speaker 2>is going to be so much more capable to create

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<v Speaker 2>things like this, capable to a point where I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's likely in the next five to ten years you

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<v Speaker 2>can simply tell it to do something whatever it is,

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<v Speaker 2>and it will create a perfectly photorealistic version of it.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, and there are versions of this where you

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<v Speaker 2>can say, you know, show me this thing and show

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<v Speaker 2>it to me in these different styles, and it'll show

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<v Speaker 2>you an image in the style of this painter, or

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<v Speaker 2>or like it was a photo taken from this era,

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<v Speaker 2>or like it was you know, shot on a certain

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<v Speaker 2>kind of film. What that means going forward is almost

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<v Speaker 2>like kind of frightening. Like people are like talked a

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<v Speaker 2>lot about deep fakes, you know, and they're like, oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>like they're going to fake a voice, or they're going

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<v Speaker 2>to fake a person's face or whatever. Like this is

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<v Speaker 2>essentially like we're getting to the point where you can

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<v Speaker 2>just fake any situation. You can just create visually any

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<v Speaker 2>situation you can think of. And I think the logical

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<v Speaker 2>thing is that eventually, pretty soon, I would imagine it'll

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<v Speaker 2>be able to do this with video, right, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think with moving images sound is not too far behind it.

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<v Speaker 2>You start to think of how this could be applied

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<v Speaker 2>to all sorts of other things. I mean, presumably, if

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<v Speaker 2>it can do this with art, with visual art, I

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<v Speaker 2>think it can do it with other forms of art. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Will we discover when it's like you could have any

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<v Speaker 2>art available to you, any type of content available to you,

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps that like what you want is somebody else's brain

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<v Speaker 2>in mind, Right, like I want to like understand or

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<v Speaker 2>see something or hear something from somebody else's brain, but

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know what it's like if if the other

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<v Speaker 2>brain can just create any of those things that I

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<v Speaker 2>would be intrigued by, Like this art is a great example. Clearly,

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<v Speaker 2>this non brain entity can create things that surprise and

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<v Speaker 2>delight me, that feel as authentic and original as any

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<v Speaker 2>art that I've looked at. It's obvious that the systems

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<v Speaker 2>that are creating this are very advanced, and they are

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<v Speaker 2>only going to get better. They're not going to get worse.

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<v Speaker 2>There is no going back to a state where this

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<v Speaker 2>is not possible. And so when you think about what

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<v Speaker 2>that looks like down the road, like maybe not everybody

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<v Speaker 2>feels this way, but I can kind of like in

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<v Speaker 2>the middle of my brain, I get this like very

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<v Speaker 2>upsetting feeling when I think about what space actually is,

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<v Speaker 2>which is like this endless nothing and actually nothing and

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<v Speaker 2>what is that like? It's very upsetting to think about

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<v Speaker 2>to me. When I think about like the future of

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<v Speaker 2>this stuff, it's sort of a similar kind of weight

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<v Speaker 2>in the middle of my brain, which is like where

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<v Speaker 2>does this go? Like it feels like all of real

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<v Speaker 2>is almost called into question by the technology, and maybe

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<v Speaker 2>I'm overstating it, maybe I sound crazy. I'm not saying

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<v Speaker 2>the computer sension, or it's alive, or it's got a

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<v Speaker 2>soul now or anything. But there's something in between the

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<v Speaker 2>lines of all this where it's just sort of like

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<v Speaker 2>it leaps beyond even my understanding of what is happening,

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<v Speaker 2>Like it leaps to a place that's almost like, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to say spiritual, but it leaps to a

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<v Speaker 2>kind of almost religious place where it's like, how can

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<v Speaker 2>this be? You kind of feel like when you do it,

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<v Speaker 2>how can this be?

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<v Speaker 3>Like?

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<v Speaker 2>How is it possible? My guest today is David Holds,

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<v Speaker 2>the founder and CEO of mid Journey. David, thank you

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<v Speaker 2>for being here.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Just before this, I said, can I say CEO? And

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<v Speaker 2>you didn't want me to, but I've done it anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>We're all going to have to live with the repercussions.

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<v Speaker 4>I no, I've been exposed.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Let's say you and I met at a party.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's pretend we're at a cool party. You don't know

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<v Speaker 2>where I'm coming from, and I'm like, what do you do?

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<v Speaker 2>And you say, I'm the founder CEO of mid Journey

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<v Speaker 2>and I go, what's that? How would you describe it

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<v Speaker 2>to somebody just randomly at a party.

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<v Speaker 4>I try not to. I'm pretty low key, but.

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<v Speaker 2>If they ask, they're like, what does mid Journey do?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah? I I never really wanted a company. I just

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<v Speaker 3>kind of wanted a home, and so like mid Journey

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<v Speaker 3>is sort of meant to be like my new home

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<v Speaker 3>for the next ten years, to work on a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of cool projects that I care about, with with cool people,

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<v Speaker 3>and that hopefully are are good for everybody else too.

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<v Speaker 3>I know we have sort of themes that I want

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<v Speaker 3>to work on, but I had to put in three words.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like reflection, imagination, and coordination. Like in order to

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<v Speaker 3>flourish as a civilization, we're gonna have to like make

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of new things. And making new things involves

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<v Speaker 3>those three words. Wow, and we need a lot more

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<v Speaker 3>around them, like infrastructure, new fundamental forms of infrastructure really

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<v Speaker 3>around each of them. We were actually originally working more

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<v Speaker 3>on the reflections and coordination tools. We were doing some

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<v Speaker 3>imagination stuff, but then there were certain breakthroughs on the

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<v Speaker 3>AI side that were happening. It was about like a

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<v Speaker 3>year and a half ago. Now it looks like everything's

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<v Speaker 3>blowing up. But like a year and a half ago

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<v Speaker 3>in San Francisco, we all went to the same Christmas

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<v Speaker 3>parties and stuff. All the AI people are kind of

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<v Speaker 3>out in here, and we were kind of all together,

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<v Speaker 3>and I'm like, these diffusion models, it seems different than

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<v Speaker 3>the other stuff.

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<v Speaker 4>And they're like, yeah, no, this is different, and well,

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<v Speaker 4>what are you gonna do?

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<v Speaker 2>What are you gonna do?

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<v Speaker 3>We're all kind of just talking, and I'm eventually like,

0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.440
<v Speaker 3>I think there's going to be a human side of this,

0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.000
<v Speaker 3>that it's not just about making pictures, but that there's

0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:32.920
<v Speaker 3>a sort of a back and forth. There's like a

0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.240
<v Speaker 3>lot more to this that's gonna be hard to figure

0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.240
<v Speaker 3>out from just optimizing a single number and up computer program. Right.

0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:40.439
<v Speaker 4>There may be some taste involved, and no one knows

0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.120
<v Speaker 4>what that is. And I'm like, i think there's something

0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.000
<v Speaker 4>I have to contribute to, right, Yeah.

0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Can you imagine? Though I'm a guy you just met

0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.640
<v Speaker 2>at a party. I've got no context whatsoever about mid

0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:52.840
<v Speaker 2>jourdy and you just told me that, which, all, by

0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:54.800
<v Speaker 2>the way, all very interesting. I have many questions related

0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:56.360
<v Speaker 2>to what you just said. Yeah, I had dumb it

0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.520
<v Speaker 2>down a little bit only because maybe not every single

0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:02.160
<v Speaker 2>person will know, but ah, mid Journey is known right now.

0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:05.960
<v Speaker 2>The company has risen to kind of a place in

0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.920
<v Speaker 2>the spotlight because it is what I think we're all

0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.200
<v Speaker 2>sort of talking about now, is like an AI art

0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:15.120
<v Speaker 2>tool or a tool to create art based on artificial

0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.120
<v Speaker 2>intelligence and machine learning and all of these sort of

0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.959
<v Speaker 2>other very complex technologies that are kind of fusing together

0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.400
<v Speaker 2>to make something that is relatively new. So I think

0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.720
<v Speaker 2>most people would say, you've built a tool that can

0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:31.400
<v Speaker 2>take human language tax like basic like English prompts or whatever.

0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:33.440
<v Speaker 2>Maybe you do in different languages, I don't know, and

0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.400
<v Speaker 2>convert a prompt like a description of something into a

0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.640
<v Speaker 2>piece of art that is created basically wholly by a machine.

0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:41.480
<v Speaker 2>Is that correct?

0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? I try to avoid like the word art almost

0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.360
<v Speaker 3>to be honest, okay, because I think that it's like

0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:53.320
<v Speaker 3>not really about art. It's about imagination and sometimes people

0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:55.960
<v Speaker 3>use their imaginations for art, but usually not right, And

0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:57.440
<v Speaker 3>so I usually think of it as we're trying to

0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:02.960
<v Speaker 3>create these machine augment imaginative powers. Sometimes I almost call

0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.240
<v Speaker 3>it like a vehicle, right, you know, to really like

0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:06.840
<v Speaker 3>to ask like what are we doing? Like is it

0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.880
<v Speaker 3>like the invention of photography and how it changed painting, right,

0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:11.400
<v Speaker 3>And I tend to say no, it's much more like

0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.360
<v Speaker 3>the invention of the combustion engine and the car. And

0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:16.960
<v Speaker 3>like when we invented cars, they're faster than us, but

0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:18.160
<v Speaker 3>we didn't chop our legs off.

0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:19.839
<v Speaker 4>We don't have to really move somewhere.

0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:21.560
<v Speaker 3>You move through vehicles, So it's kind of like a

0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:23.240
<v Speaker 3>vehicle for a magines If you really have to go somewhere,

0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.760
<v Speaker 3>you're going to unit these vehicles like jets and boath

0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:26.680
<v Speaker 3>and cars.

0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:29.400
<v Speaker 4>We never have a little robot as like our icon.

0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.000
<v Speaker 3>It's like a sailboat, right, you know, very much trying

0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:35.160
<v Speaker 3>to kind of help people explore and imagine these like

0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.360
<v Speaker 3>seeds of like esthetic possibilities.

0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:40.520
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's interesting that there's a little bit of

0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:42.640
<v Speaker 2>like a defensive stance you have to take now because

0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.200
<v Speaker 2>the art aspect of it gets under the skin of

0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.240
<v Speaker 2>a certain part of the audience that's like, wait a second,

0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, what is this thing doing? What does it mean?

0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.200
<v Speaker 2>What does it mean for all these different industries. Yeah,

0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:54.960
<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of people feel and maybe you

0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.880
<v Speaker 2>guys have had to play some a new round of

0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.880
<v Speaker 2>defense because of it. That this is an engineer to

0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of like up end industries, right, But you're saying

0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:05.120
<v Speaker 2>you don't really view it that.

0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.479
<v Speaker 3>Way, No, And that to me is actually very uninteresting.

0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.319
<v Speaker 3>Like the idea of like making fake art is really uninteresting,

0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:14.599
<v Speaker 3>like who cares? Or making fake photos it's really like

0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:16.800
<v Speaker 3>to me is not like I think, what's interesting is

0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.800
<v Speaker 3>making stuff that never could have existed before. I don't

0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:21.280
<v Speaker 3>like it when somebody makes a deep fake photo of

0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:22.560
<v Speaker 3>the dog, we make it really ready to do that.

0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:23.640
<v Speaker 4>Other ones do that well.

0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:25.960
<v Speaker 3>To me, the most interesting images are the ones that

0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:28.400
<v Speaker 3>don't look like anything we've ever seen before. They don't

0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.800
<v Speaker 3>look human, they don't look like the AI made. They

0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:32.280
<v Speaker 3>look like something new, and all we know is that

0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:33.960
<v Speaker 3>it's this new thing, it's this new frontier.

0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.080
<v Speaker 2>Right. I should tell you that the art for this podcast,

0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:38.720
<v Speaker 2>as of right now, and I don't think it's going

0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.520
<v Speaker 2>to change, is generated by mid Journey Cool, and it

0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.440
<v Speaker 2>ended up producing results that I think are like at

0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.040
<v Speaker 2>once very familiar to me, like in terms of stylistically,

0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:48.600
<v Speaker 2>there's something very familiar to me about it, but there's

0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:52.000
<v Speaker 2>also something about it that is like totally original, I

0:14:52.000 --> 0:15:03.360
<v Speaker 2>think to your point, now, I'll tell you this, like,

0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.040
<v Speaker 2>I'll give you my stance a little bit, because one

0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:07.320
<v Speaker 2>of the reasons I wanted to talk to you, one

0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:08.640
<v Speaker 2>of the reasons I want to talk about this at

0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:12.160
<v Speaker 2>all is, as you know, I'm a huge nerd and

0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.520
<v Speaker 2>I've spent my entire life like being, you know, sort

0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:20.240
<v Speaker 2>of mesmerized and interested in emerging technology in all sorts

0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:24.480
<v Speaker 2>of different forms. And when I started using mid Journey,

0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:29.640
<v Speaker 2>mid Journey's producing something that to me feels I'll try

0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.800
<v Speaker 2>to avoid using the term arte, it feels like it's

0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:37.000
<v Speaker 2>creating something very original. I could say, like, Okay, I

0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:38.640
<v Speaker 2>know where some of this stuff is coming from, Like

0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.000
<v Speaker 2>I can kind of understand, like there's certain styles that

0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.080
<v Speaker 2>are present, or if you give it a prompt to

0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.560
<v Speaker 2>get a certain style, you can get that. But to me,

0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.200
<v Speaker 2>it was like, and I still feel this having processed

0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.360
<v Speaker 2>it now for you know, weeks and months, maybe the

0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.640
<v Speaker 2>most amazing thing that I've ever seen a machine do.

0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:56.320
<v Speaker 2>I totally understand the idea that you're not trying to

0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.680
<v Speaker 2>build a tool that is like a new photoshop, although

0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.200
<v Speaker 2>I think or applications that are obvious that are in

0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.720
<v Speaker 2>that realm. When I first asked about what it was

0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:07.480
<v Speaker 2>you use three words. What were the three words that

0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:08.040
<v Speaker 2>you used.

0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.760
<v Speaker 4>Was reflection, imagination, and coordination.

0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:13.440
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so coordination and reflection. I want to talk about

0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.240
<v Speaker 2>like what that means because I understand the imagination part,

0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.640
<v Speaker 2>and I think I understand how you are thinking about

0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.120
<v Speaker 2>like what mid Journey does now in that department. But

0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.720
<v Speaker 2>tell me about like those roots of reflection and coordination,

0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:29.040
<v Speaker 2>Like what was this before it was? What it is?

0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:31.600
<v Speaker 3>We were working on a lot of things trying to

0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:35.680
<v Speaker 3>like understand human minds, like individually to help people reflect

0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:37.520
<v Speaker 3>and then also to kind of help people come together

0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.480
<v Speaker 3>and like work on things better. And so we were

0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.720
<v Speaker 3>doing a lot of like quantitative psychology and like structured

0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.480
<v Speaker 3>thinking to kind of like create like boost up of

0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:47.600
<v Speaker 3>a hive mind as fast as.

0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:49.120
<v Speaker 4>You can kind of a future is going to say

0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:49.840
<v Speaker 4>lots of weird things.

0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:51.960
<v Speaker 2>No, that's good. Are you saying that? Like the roots

0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:53.680
<v Speaker 2>of this are kind of like can we get this

0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.400
<v Speaker 2>thing to think on a collective level for us to

0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:58.000
<v Speaker 2>like solve problems? Yeah?

0:16:58.040 --> 0:16:59.680
<v Speaker 4>I think there's two areas.

0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:02.280
<v Speaker 3>There's both like how do you help somebody think about

0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:03.720
<v Speaker 3>like who they are, what they want and just kind

0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.280
<v Speaker 3>of like deal with their things. Uh. And then there's

0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:07.919
<v Speaker 3>also like how do you help them find like the

0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.399
<v Speaker 3>right people anything big nets other people, So how do

0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:12.800
<v Speaker 3>you kind of find the people?

0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:13.760
<v Speaker 4>And I don't know.

0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:17.000
<v Speaker 3>When I was like twenty, I would say, you have

0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:18.800
<v Speaker 3>to have your goals and then you align people who

0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:19.560
<v Speaker 3>share the goals.

0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:20.560
<v Speaker 4>And then I've done that.

0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:22.359
<v Speaker 3>And it turns out that the second the goals change,

0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:25.440
<v Speaker 3>the groups blow apart because like it's about values or something.

0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:27.080
<v Speaker 3>And then if you a lot of people on values

0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:28.800
<v Speaker 3>and then over like five or ten years, it blows

0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:30.399
<v Speaker 3>apart again because it turns out that our values like

0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:32.399
<v Speaker 3>change in our lives, our experience change, right, And so

0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:34.320
<v Speaker 3>then maybe this idea is like we need some higher

0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.120
<v Speaker 3>than values, and maybe it's aesthetics. It's like not about

0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.520
<v Speaker 3>what's like right or wrong or what's important on importance.

0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:41.399
<v Speaker 3>It's like really deep down, it's about like what we

0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:43.920
<v Speaker 3>feel is beautiful and what we feel is ugly that

0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:46.040
<v Speaker 3>like really leads to the things that we value, the things.

0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:46.960
<v Speaker 4>That we actually tried to build.

0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:47.560
<v Speaker 2>It's interesting.

0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.560
<v Speaker 3>And so there's this idea of like maybe aesthetics themselves

0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:53.160
<v Speaker 3>are like some of the highest things, and maybe aesthetics

0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.560
<v Speaker 3>can be like a foundational layer of like a social

0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:58.600
<v Speaker 3>world in a way that like is beyond where it is,

0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:00.399
<v Speaker 3>because right now it's like the Internet, what is it?

0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:00.840
<v Speaker 4>It's about?

0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:03.000
<v Speaker 3>Like Facebook, it's like who's your mom and who went

0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:05.480
<v Speaker 3>to school with? And then like on Twitter, it's like

0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:07.359
<v Speaker 3>almost like like you say one thing a day that

0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:09.800
<v Speaker 3>pisses people off and then half of them will follow you, right,

0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:12.040
<v Speaker 3>And like those are both shitty foundations for like a

0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.119
<v Speaker 3>better social world. I would never want to build a

0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:16.119
<v Speaker 3>team that way, so that there's something really interesting on

0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.480
<v Speaker 3>like mid journey where people come together and they're like, man,

0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.680
<v Speaker 3>you love like Egyptian space pyramids too, That's like me,

0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:24.000
<v Speaker 3>And then like you have nothing else in common, but

0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.199
<v Speaker 3>you both love Egyptian space pyramids and it actually like

0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:30.080
<v Speaker 3>means something really deep, right. I think that like aesthetics

0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.679
<v Speaker 3>have the potential to be a foundation of a better

0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.359
<v Speaker 3>social and cordant player in a way that's like really

0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.560
<v Speaker 3>hard to understand, but that is actually like really interesting.

0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:44.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean that's a fascinating and frankly I have so

0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.760
<v Speaker 2>many questions around just the basic concept there, but like

0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.359
<v Speaker 2>I would agree with you that aesthetics do tend to

0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:54.000
<v Speaker 2>bring people together. I mean, but aesthetics conceptually, the idea of,

0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, having a taste or a preference for something,

0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:01.240
<v Speaker 2>there's a limit I would imagine too, people who identify

0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:08.360
<v Speaker 2>around an aesthetic position. Meaning my mother, who's a wonderful,

0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.920
<v Speaker 2>wonderful and extremely insane person. She could talk about things

0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.199
<v Speaker 2>she's visually finds beautiful or whatever, but I would not

0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:15.920
<v Speaker 2>say it's like a central part of her personality or

0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.320
<v Speaker 2>something that she has an enormous amount of interest in. Right.

0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:21.760
<v Speaker 2>The thing about Facebook is that a raw opinion or

0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.560
<v Speaker 2>sharing something like oh, I found this article interesting or

0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:28.640
<v Speaker 2>whatever is very straightforward in the sense of we all

0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:31.320
<v Speaker 2>know what an idea is or an interesting article or

0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:34.880
<v Speaker 2>an opinion. But I don't know that everybody thinks on

0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.280
<v Speaker 2>an aesthetic level. Maybe I'm not giving everybody enough credit.

0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:39.800
<v Speaker 2>It's possible. I think you're right.

0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.199
<v Speaker 3>People don't think about it, but it's there, right, Like

0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:44.879
<v Speaker 3>I tried this, I'd like, what are your aesthetics that

0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:46.440
<v Speaker 3>lead to your values, that lead to your goals? Like

0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:48.719
<v Speaker 3>you can ask the question and almost nobody can answer it. Right,

0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:50.400
<v Speaker 3>It's a really hard question, But all of a sudden

0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:52.119
<v Speaker 3>you give them something like mid journey and it's like

0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:53.960
<v Speaker 3>you can make a picture of anything, what do you want,

0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.679
<v Speaker 3>and like everything just spills out and then they go

0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.000
<v Speaker 3>through this whole like heroes and mid journey and like

0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.760
<v Speaker 3>the process of looking through that journey, like you like

0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:05.240
<v Speaker 3>it's all there and it's very clear, like a lot

0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:06.080
<v Speaker 3>of stuff comes out.

0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:07.959
<v Speaker 2>Actually, But if I'm like a and I'm gonna give

0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:09.639
<v Speaker 2>you like a really extreme example, and so forgive me

0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.560
<v Speaker 2>if this feels like a like a a gotcha or whatever.

0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:14.600
<v Speaker 2>But if I'm like a neo Nazi, for instance, yeah,

0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.480
<v Speaker 2>I might love Star Wars. Let's say, although I always

0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:19.720
<v Speaker 2>find it fascinating when like people who are really into fascism,

0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:21.439
<v Speaker 2>like are like I like Star Wars, I'm into the

0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:24.160
<v Speaker 2>Rebels or whatever. I'm like, you know, it's but okay,

0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.119
<v Speaker 2>let's say I like Star Wars. You like Star Wars,

0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:27.879
<v Speaker 2>but like one of us is a white supremacist and

0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.480
<v Speaker 2>one of us isn't. We may share some aesthetic interests, right,

0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.560
<v Speaker 2>or we may both love a certain artist, right, you know,

0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.720
<v Speaker 2>we're Lichtenstein fans or whatever. But like, at the end

0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:39.320
<v Speaker 2>of the day, deep down, I don't know that that

0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:43.920
<v Speaker 2>aesthetic preference has any deeper resonance on who we are.

0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:45.800
<v Speaker 2>There's a limit, right, well, so.

0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.639
<v Speaker 3>Like for example, like you know, you're a rebel obviously,

0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:51.359
<v Speaker 3>and then like a Nazi nowadays is also rebel in

0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:54.680
<v Speaker 3>their own way, so you do have something in common. Yeah,

0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:57.000
<v Speaker 3>but like, but there's probably also other things. I mean,

0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:59.840
<v Speaker 3>that's that is a leap, I would say. I mean,

0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:02.520
<v Speaker 3>I get what you're saying. They're definitely going against the grain, right,

0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:04.800
<v Speaker 3>I got it. Yeah, I get the grain. Yeah, I know,

0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:06.600
<v Speaker 3>I mean they were Yeah, definitely a lot of us

0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:10.000
<v Speaker 3>are rebels, and they're types of rebels, but we are rebels.

0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.000
<v Speaker 3>But now, like I think there are other things too, right,

0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:15.399
<v Speaker 3>So you don't want to just lock on rebels. You

0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:17.080
<v Speaker 3>want to have something it's like a little bit broader

0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:19.239
<v Speaker 3>and more interesting. It's the question is after you make

0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:20.800
<v Speaker 3>a bunch of picture of rebels, what's the next thing

0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:21.080
<v Speaker 3>you do?

0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:24.439
<v Speaker 4>You know, and then what's that's? What's that all come together?

0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:26.760
<v Speaker 2>You know? I mean, now we're like very far afield

0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:28.480
<v Speaker 2>from Like I've got a mid journey bought that I

0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:30.119
<v Speaker 2>can talk to and it can make images for me.

0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:32.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, how would you describe it? You describe it

0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:32.400
<v Speaker 2>as ai?

0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean it is it is ai. I don't like.

0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:38.000
<v Speaker 3>I kind of avoid the words ai and art actually

0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:41.000
<v Speaker 3>both together. Weirdly, problem with words like AI is that

0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:43.280
<v Speaker 3>people give it a lot of agency and like will

0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:45.520
<v Speaker 3>and purpose and meaning right and so where it's like

0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:47.560
<v Speaker 3>this thing it doesn't have a story or a narrative

0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:48.920
<v Speaker 3>or like any will.

0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:51.119
<v Speaker 2>Right, ascension doesn't have a soul.

0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.280
<v Speaker 4>It does learn actually from lots of people, and it

0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:56.720
<v Speaker 4>changes and there's a co evolution. It's almost like mid

0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:59.439
<v Speaker 4>Journey is a flower and then the users are bees,

0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:01.760
<v Speaker 4>and like the flower is trying to be beautiful for

0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:03.960
<v Speaker 4>the bees, but the bees pick which flowers are the

0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:06.600
<v Speaker 4>ones that get to survive, and so like there's this

0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:08.639
<v Speaker 4>coevolution between the flowers and the bees.

0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:10.680
<v Speaker 3>Like there's not a lot of will. There is some will,

0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:13.120
<v Speaker 3>there's a will to be beautiful, and then there's only

0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:15.560
<v Speaker 3>weird about flowers being beautiful because we find them beautiful too.

0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:17.320
<v Speaker 3>It's like, what does that mean? It's because they're not

0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:19.919
<v Speaker 3>really for us specifically. It's like why do both us

0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:21.960
<v Speaker 3>and the bees find something beautiful? Like it's sort of

0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:23.760
<v Speaker 3>speaking some weird objective thing.

0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:26.359
<v Speaker 2>No, And I can understand that from a philosophical level.

0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:27.359
<v Speaker 2>I mean, like, what is it doing.

0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:29.679
<v Speaker 3>It's a program, Yeah, it's a program. It's a program

0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:32.359
<v Speaker 3>with a lot of models in it. There's a model

0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:35.800
<v Speaker 3>that models language, and there's something that models the connection

0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:38.320
<v Speaker 3>between language and images. There's other thing that tries to

0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:39.639
<v Speaker 3>model what images look like.

0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:40.120
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:43.639
<v Speaker 3>There's actually also models that try to understand like beauty,

0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:46.159
<v Speaker 3>like what is beautiful actually? And then there's other models

0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:50.080
<v Speaker 3>that try to understand like trade offs between like diversity versus,

0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:52.480
<v Speaker 3>creativity versus like how literal should you be?

0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:54.439
<v Speaker 4>How metaphorical should you be? How do you read things?

0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:56.879
<v Speaker 4>And so it's kind of a it's.

0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:59.800
<v Speaker 3>Like a structure and there's a lot of like ducta

0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:03.080
<v Speaker 3>and you know, it's it's weird because like people will

0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:05.199
<v Speaker 3>be like is it alive? Like, well, how is it

0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:08.600
<v Speaker 3>understand thing? If I say something like sadness or happiness?

0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:10.080
<v Speaker 3>How is it able to make an image of an

0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:12.000
<v Speaker 3>emotion that it's never had? Like they go ask these

0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:13.440
<v Speaker 3>questions like what is this like that's it doesn't not

0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:15.359
<v Speaker 3>like a piece of software, you know, but it's not

0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:18.000
<v Speaker 3>an AI because it's never had those experiences, right, Like

0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:18.680
<v Speaker 3>what does it mean?

0:23:18.880 --> 0:23:20.680
<v Speaker 4>There's a lot of really interesting questions.

0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:21.800
<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of people they hear AI they

0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:24.560
<v Speaker 2>think there's like a machine somewhere with like a glowing

0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:26.800
<v Speaker 2>red orb in the middle of it, and like it's

0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:29.920
<v Speaker 2>like pulsing. Yeah, exactly, And there's like some neural net.

0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:32.119
<v Speaker 2>You've built some custom hardware where there's like there is

0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:35.760
<v Speaker 2>the neural net. It's like a digital brain. It's like software. Right.

0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:40.080
<v Speaker 3>These programs they do share things with our brains, like

0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:42.760
<v Speaker 3>like how an airplane share something with a bird, Like

0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:45.760
<v Speaker 3>they both share aerodynamics and physics and the sky. Like

0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:48.640
<v Speaker 3>these things are sharing some physics of thoughts.

0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Right with us. Right. But I'm just saying, like, it's

0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:53.240
<v Speaker 2>not how you built software. The software does some pretty

0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:57.400
<v Speaker 2>sophisticated things. It is hosted on like a AWS rack

0:23:57.480 --> 0:24:00.919
<v Speaker 2>somewhere essentially, I mean maybe now use AWS. So what

0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:04.720
<v Speaker 2>is the product? Like, you've got investors, right, No, you

0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:08.600
<v Speaker 2>don't know your boots dropped? Yeah, okay, now I listen.

0:24:08.680 --> 0:24:11.400
<v Speaker 2>I've paid for a subscription. I'm a mid journey free now,

0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:14.159
<v Speaker 2>So is that the product people pay for subscriptions to

0:24:14.240 --> 0:24:14.840
<v Speaker 2>use it? Yeah?

0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:16.480
<v Speaker 4>I try to have very honest business.

0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:17.879
<v Speaker 3>It's like you're not going to run on your computer

0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:20.080
<v Speaker 3>ground the cloud and then we're gonna pays takes money

0:24:20.119 --> 0:24:21.960
<v Speaker 3>and then we'll take some margin on that, and that's

0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:22.480
<v Speaker 3>the business.

0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:24.600
<v Speaker 2>And you feel like that's a good foundation for like

0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:25.919
<v Speaker 2>whatever this thing is going to be, Like you can

0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:28.360
<v Speaker 2>build off of that. Yeah, you don't have like Mark

0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:30.800
<v Speaker 2>Andrews in company being like, I'll give you X number

0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:32.880
<v Speaker 2>of billions of dollars if you can let me turn

0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:34.960
<v Speaker 2>this into whatever Mark Andrewson wants.

0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:36.399
<v Speaker 4>We do have a lot of vess coming to us

0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:37.480
<v Speaker 4>offering us lots of money.

0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:38.480
<v Speaker 2>You're not taking the money.

0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:39.960
<v Speaker 4>No, we haven't taken anything so far.

0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:42.239
<v Speaker 2>That's pretty amazing. Can the business be profitable like this?

0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:45.720
<v Speaker 4>We're profitable already? You are, Yeah, that's one reason not

0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:47.080
<v Speaker 4>to take money is we're already profitable.

0:24:47.119 --> 0:24:49.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, if you're making money, it's definitely good

0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:50.440
<v Speaker 2>reason not to take it, right Yeah.

0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:51.840
<v Speaker 3>I mean if people come to us and they offer

0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:53.840
<v Speaker 3>us money and I'm like, what am I going to

0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:57.480
<v Speaker 3>spend it on? And they're like it's good to have it,

0:24:57.520 --> 0:25:01.000
<v Speaker 3>you should have it, And I'm like, where you have money,

0:25:01.040 --> 0:25:02.719
<v Speaker 3>We're trying to spend it already, and they're like, well,

0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:03.360
<v Speaker 3>you just have money.

0:25:03.480 --> 0:25:04.480
<v Speaker 4>They just take us take our advice.

0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:06.239
<v Speaker 3>It's not about the money, it's about advice, or like

0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:08.480
<v Speaker 3>they try to make those arguments and so far having

0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:10.159
<v Speaker 3>curt a very compelling argument.

0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:13.080
<v Speaker 2>So you're happy to iterate on this product where it's

0:25:13.080 --> 0:25:15.719
<v Speaker 2>at now and let the user sort of maybe dictate

0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:17.480
<v Speaker 2>some of the direction because of the way that they're

0:25:17.520 --> 0:25:17.879
<v Speaker 2>using it.

0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:19.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean it's kind of beautiful.

0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:22.200
<v Speaker 3>It's like we make something and people like it, they

0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:24.199
<v Speaker 3>pay us money, and then if they don't like it,

0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:25.000
<v Speaker 3>we don't make money.

0:25:25.040 --> 0:25:26.240
<v Speaker 4>But like so we have We're like we're trying to

0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:26.679
<v Speaker 4>make something.

0:25:26.600 --> 0:25:29.440
<v Speaker 3>People like because it supports our stuff, and like it's

0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:34.040
<v Speaker 3>very sort of honest to straightforward, and it's the easy business.

0:25:34.119 --> 0:25:35.560
<v Speaker 4>I keep it this way. I would keep it this way.

0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:39.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean, presumably there's commercial applications for this, right, Yeah.

0:25:39.359 --> 0:25:41.520
<v Speaker 2>I think of this because I'm like a guy who

0:25:41.600 --> 0:25:44.120
<v Speaker 2>runs like media businesses. Yeah, I think, oh wow, there's

0:25:44.160 --> 0:25:46.800
<v Speaker 2>all the time, like I want art for something, and

0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:48.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm actually going to get into a bunch of questions

0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:50.200
<v Speaker 2>about the art side of it. But all the time,

0:25:50.280 --> 0:25:52.040
<v Speaker 2>like I'm in a newsroom, I'm like publishing you know,

0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:54.520
<v Speaker 2>twenty stories a day or fifty stories a day or whatever,

0:25:55.040 --> 0:25:58.160
<v Speaker 2>and every one of those pieces has some art attached

0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:01.920
<v Speaker 2>to it, Like presumably you're already doing more enterprise level

0:26:01.960 --> 0:26:04.080
<v Speaker 2>stuff where like I just want like some design for

0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:06.560
<v Speaker 2>a story or for a blog that I'm writing or

0:26:06.560 --> 0:26:10.400
<v Speaker 2>whatever that you could generate that any sort of infinite

0:26:10.480 --> 0:26:12.960
<v Speaker 2>iterations of original pieces of art, Like, is that a

0:26:13.000 --> 0:26:13.720
<v Speaker 2>part of the business.

0:26:14.040 --> 0:26:16.920
<v Speaker 3>I would say, we're a consumer business that also has

0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:19.879
<v Speaker 3>like some professionals. So it's by like seventy percent consumers

0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:23.400
<v Speaker 3>and thirty percent professionals. Right, the professionals are mostly using

0:26:23.400 --> 0:26:26.719
<v Speaker 3>it for like brainstorming and concepting. Then the consumers are

0:26:26.760 --> 0:26:32.080
<v Speaker 3>having fun and sort of having these reflective, spiritual personal experiences.

0:26:32.280 --> 0:26:35.080
<v Speaker 3>I'm not that excited by professional use, even though, like

0:26:35.119 --> 0:26:36.720
<v Speaker 3>I'm happy when I see people are finding it to

0:26:36.720 --> 0:26:39.439
<v Speaker 3>be useful. Right, the regular people have definitely been a

0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:52.159
<v Speaker 3>lot more motivating and inspiring to me, even the professional uses.

0:26:53.200 --> 0:26:55.640
<v Speaker 4>I have very little interest in the world as it is.

0:26:55.840 --> 0:26:58.360
<v Speaker 3>I want to like make it really different, and it's

0:26:58.400 --> 0:27:01.119
<v Speaker 3>much easier do thing really different fornsumers than it is

0:27:01.119 --> 0:27:04.960
<v Speaker 3>to like have that immediately impact the sort of professional worlds, right,

0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:06.960
<v Speaker 3>and so like for video game people come to me

0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:08.840
<v Speaker 3>to like well, and like they literally they have to

0:27:08.840 --> 0:27:11.200
<v Speaker 3>file us under their photoshop budget because like the video

0:27:11.200 --> 0:27:13.320
<v Speaker 3>game is already budgeted out and it takes sixteen months,

0:27:13.320 --> 0:27:14.320
<v Speaker 3>and I have to wait for them to make their

0:27:14.320 --> 0:27:16.600
<v Speaker 3>next video game. And I'm like, this is bullshit, right,

0:27:16.600 --> 0:27:18.720
<v Speaker 3>I'm so happy that my business isn't reliant on somebody

0:27:18.800 --> 0:27:20.879
<v Speaker 3>finishing their video game in sixteen months, you know.

0:27:21.680 --> 0:27:23.000
<v Speaker 4>And that's what that world.

0:27:22.760 --> 0:27:25.800
<v Speaker 2>Is like, right, Listen. I thought a lot about this, Like,

0:27:26.040 --> 0:27:27.959
<v Speaker 2>if I'm making a video game, especially if I'm like

0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:31.200
<v Speaker 2>an independent developer, like an indie dev I need art,

0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:33.320
<v Speaker 2>I need assets, like I want to make like I

0:27:33.359 --> 0:27:35.679
<v Speaker 2>want to make this world that hasn't been made before,

0:27:35.720 --> 0:27:38.240
<v Speaker 2>and like normally, and this actually gets into this part

0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:39.960
<v Speaker 2>of the conversation I want to have about art and

0:27:40.000 --> 0:27:42.879
<v Speaker 2>about the sort of implications of it. You know, I

0:27:43.000 --> 0:27:45.639
<v Speaker 2>might go and hire an artist or whatever to do that,

0:27:45.760 --> 0:27:48.040
<v Speaker 2>but now, like mid Journey, potentially, like if I'm using

0:27:48.080 --> 0:27:50.280
<v Speaker 2>in that way, I can create assets and backgrounds and

0:27:50.320 --> 0:27:53.840
<v Speaker 2>scenery or even brainstorm off of that to build something from.

0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:56.480
<v Speaker 2>Like That's that's not the exact thing, but a kind

0:27:56.520 --> 0:27:59.280
<v Speaker 2>of iteration of it. But there is a certain very

0:27:59.359 --> 0:28:02.960
<v Speaker 2>vocal segment of people out there in the world, and

0:28:03.080 --> 0:28:05.080
<v Speaker 2>there are people who are artists who are you know,

0:28:05.160 --> 0:28:08.640
<v Speaker 2>digital artists, or who are working artists today, or even

0:28:08.680 --> 0:28:11.040
<v Speaker 2>people who are doing fine art that's like hanging in galleries.

0:28:11.040 --> 0:28:13.879
<v Speaker 2>And they're like, one, this is theft because it's using

0:28:13.960 --> 0:28:16.359
<v Speaker 2>our work. It's using work that is out there that

0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:20.520
<v Speaker 2>is available to see as inspiration for these works. And

0:28:20.600 --> 0:28:22.880
<v Speaker 2>two it's like they're not getting anything when it does

0:28:22.960 --> 0:28:26.520
<v Speaker 2>create new work. Not only is it making their jobs

0:28:26.600 --> 0:28:30.760
<v Speaker 2>more sort of obsolete, but it's also like doing it

0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:33.040
<v Speaker 2>on the backs of all of their work. It's not

0:28:33.160 --> 0:28:36.200
<v Speaker 2>a non compelling argument. There is some reason to think

0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:38.680
<v Speaker 2>that all of those sort of notions are in some

0:28:38.800 --> 0:28:40.239
<v Speaker 2>way true. Like what's your take on that.

0:28:40.640 --> 0:28:44.000
<v Speaker 3>There's a lot of misunderstandings around the technology, and it

0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:46.600
<v Speaker 3>makes sense that like artists really aren't going to understand

0:28:46.640 --> 0:28:49.200
<v Speaker 3>what this is doing. Some of my favorite images I've

0:28:49.200 --> 0:28:51.880
<v Speaker 3>made with any of these models that looked artistic. We're

0:28:51.880 --> 0:28:54.840
<v Speaker 3>trained only on photos and so but this is is

0:28:54.840 --> 0:28:58.120
<v Speaker 3>it's a system that understands what images look like like.

0:28:58.240 --> 0:28:59.680
<v Speaker 3>If you've seen enough photos in your life and then

0:28:59.680 --> 0:29:01.800
<v Speaker 3>you see it anything you could describe the painting without

0:29:01.840 --> 0:29:05.360
<v Speaker 3>having ever having been trained on paintings, and so like,

0:29:05.680 --> 0:29:08.400
<v Speaker 3>what this is the thing that understands images, and then

0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:10.800
<v Speaker 3>it understands language of the connection with languages and images,

0:29:10.800 --> 0:29:13.560
<v Speaker 3>And there's some elements of like knowing what a style

0:29:13.600 --> 0:29:16.240
<v Speaker 3>looks like requires having seen the word and the style before.

0:29:16.480 --> 0:29:18.680
<v Speaker 3>So there's like some connections to it, right, But like,

0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:22.320
<v Speaker 3>largely speaking, it's not I think working like the way

0:29:22.360 --> 0:29:24.480
<v Speaker 3>they think it is. And so the problem is that

0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:26.600
<v Speaker 3>the artists are scared about being in the data set.

0:29:26.720 --> 0:29:29.240
<v Speaker 3>But literally you can just take one of their pictures

0:29:29.240 --> 0:29:30.560
<v Speaker 3>and feed into one of these models where that ever,

0:29:30.560 --> 0:29:31.680
<v Speaker 3>never have it seen it before, and it can make

0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:32.360
<v Speaker 3>pictures like that.

0:29:32.640 --> 0:29:34.600
<v Speaker 4>So it's not about the training data. First off.

0:29:34.880 --> 0:29:37.719
<v Speaker 3>If it understands images, it's game over for that battle.

0:29:37.920 --> 0:29:40.040
<v Speaker 3>It wants to seem enough general images enough to like

0:29:40.080 --> 0:29:42.080
<v Speaker 3>know what textures are and know what colors are. You

0:29:42.080 --> 0:29:43.520
<v Speaker 3>can show it a picture and it can make pictures

0:29:43.520 --> 0:29:46.280
<v Speaker 3>all like that, never having seen that specific car asia before.

0:29:46.640 --> 0:29:49.760
<v Speaker 2>Right, So I mean you know that obviously raises like

0:29:49.800 --> 0:29:53.320
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of weird questions about like you know, how

0:29:53.360 --> 0:29:55.520
<v Speaker 2>fine tuned does that get? Can I pick any artists

0:29:55.520 --> 0:29:57.560
<v Speaker 2>like a photographer I like on Instagram and say in

0:29:57.600 --> 0:29:59.920
<v Speaker 2>the style of this Instagram photographer, and like it'll do

0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:01.360
<v Speaker 2>something well.

0:30:01.560 --> 0:30:03.720
<v Speaker 3>I mean, you could certainly put a photo of theirs

0:30:03.720 --> 0:30:05.400
<v Speaker 3>into another service and I'll give you a photo that

0:30:05.400 --> 0:30:08.000
<v Speaker 3>looks like it. So you know, that's I think that's

0:30:08.000 --> 0:30:10.320
<v Speaker 3>really the more that's kind of the technical thing, right,

0:30:10.360 --> 0:30:12.760
<v Speaker 3>And so basically, if these systems understand images, they'll be

0:30:12.760 --> 0:30:15.040
<v Speaker 3>able to copy anything you show them, regardless of whether

0:30:15.120 --> 0:30:17.360
<v Speaker 3>they're trained on them. So I think the training data

0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:20.080
<v Speaker 3>is the wrong battle to fight, But there is potentially

0:30:20.080 --> 0:30:22.360
<v Speaker 3>a battle to fight over like use of these tools,

0:30:22.360 --> 0:30:25.200
<v Speaker 3>like what is good and what is bad use? And certainly,

0:30:25.840 --> 0:30:27.720
<v Speaker 3>like the law covers out already, if you make something

0:30:27.720 --> 0:30:30.600
<v Speaker 3>that's really derivative of another artist, like too derivative, it

0:30:30.640 --> 0:30:33.760
<v Speaker 3>does not okay even legally, right, So like there is

0:30:33.800 --> 0:30:35.680
<v Speaker 3>it is covered a little bit by law already. Maybe

0:30:35.680 --> 0:30:39.200
<v Speaker 3>there should be something more strict because like it's getting easier.

0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:42.760
<v Speaker 3>But that's that's the battle to fight. I think it's

0:30:42.800 --> 0:30:46.440
<v Speaker 3>like what's too similar, not like this training data thing,

0:30:47.400 --> 0:30:47.640
<v Speaker 3>you know.

0:30:47.600 --> 0:30:49.880
<v Speaker 2>I think about like CGI in a way, if you're

0:30:49.880 --> 0:30:52.040
<v Speaker 2>building an environment for like a film or something, right,

0:30:52.080 --> 0:30:53.520
<v Speaker 2>like and you're like I want to make a mountain

0:30:53.600 --> 0:30:56.520
<v Speaker 2>or whatever. You're not going to hand draw every polygon

0:30:56.920 --> 0:30:58.960
<v Speaker 2>that builds the mountain, right, the computer is going to

0:30:58.960 --> 0:31:02.160
<v Speaker 2>figure out and even now, like it'll just basically terraform

0:31:02.200 --> 0:31:03.960
<v Speaker 2>a mountain right in unreal or whatever.

0:31:04.080 --> 0:31:04.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:31:04.360 --> 0:31:06.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And once upon a time most people couldn't read

0:31:06.360 --> 0:31:09.240
<v Speaker 3>and write, and now everybody can. And there are more

0:31:09.240 --> 0:31:11.760
<v Speaker 3>writers now and more readers now professionally than they're ever

0:31:11.760 --> 0:31:12.280
<v Speaker 3>were before.

0:31:12.800 --> 0:31:15.520
<v Speaker 2>Right, Well, it's kind of like photography, yeah, right, Like

0:31:15.520 --> 0:31:17.600
<v Speaker 2>everybody has like a kind of pro grade camera in

0:31:17.640 --> 0:31:19.239
<v Speaker 2>their pocket all the time now, and so like we

0:31:19.240 --> 0:31:22.600
<v Speaker 2>were just a wash in really high quality photos, whereas

0:31:22.640 --> 0:31:25.520
<v Speaker 2>like if you go back fifty years, not even twenty

0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:29.080
<v Speaker 2>five years, the best phone camera you could have was

0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:33.160
<v Speaker 2>really shitty and was obviously low quality. We weren't a

0:31:33.480 --> 0:31:36.320
<v Speaker 2>wash in just photos everywhere. Right, And like in the

0:31:36.400 --> 0:31:40.120
<v Speaker 2>last twenty five years, pretty much everybody's become like somewhat

0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:43.640
<v Speaker 2>of a pro am photographer. Yeah, maybe this is a

0:31:43.640 --> 0:31:45.240
<v Speaker 2>straw man. I don't want to throw strawma at you,

0:31:45.280 --> 0:31:47.360
<v Speaker 2>But like, is there a question about like deep fakes

0:31:47.400 --> 0:31:50.200
<v Speaker 2>and sort of like creating reality that does not exist?

0:31:50.240 --> 0:31:52.240
<v Speaker 2>Is that something that you guys grapple.

0:31:51.880 --> 0:31:55.440
<v Speaker 3>With yeah, I mean it's a real risk for us. Specifically,

0:31:55.480 --> 0:31:58.800
<v Speaker 3>we did some special algorithms. It's very hard to make it,

0:31:58.880 --> 0:32:01.000
<v Speaker 3>make it deep fake what it does. If you ask

0:32:01.080 --> 0:32:03.560
<v Speaker 3>me to make a photo, it'll look realistic, but there's

0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:05.800
<v Speaker 3>like something to it in the lighting and the shading

0:32:05.880 --> 0:32:08.640
<v Speaker 3>and the hues where it's like just far enough away

0:32:08.640 --> 0:32:11.040
<v Speaker 3>from a photo that it looks very realistic, but your

0:32:11.080 --> 0:32:13.280
<v Speaker 3>body like knows it's not a real image immediately.

0:32:13.560 --> 0:32:15.360
<v Speaker 2>What if I'm imagining something that looks exactly like a

0:32:15.400 --> 0:32:17.920
<v Speaker 2>real image, We're not doing that right now. My imagination

0:32:18.000 --> 0:32:18.480
<v Speaker 2>has a limit.

0:32:18.520 --> 0:32:20.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, right now it does. Yeah, yeah.

0:32:20.560 --> 0:32:23.120
<v Speaker 2>Would do you think that limit will be lifted for

0:32:23.160 --> 0:32:25.240
<v Speaker 2>certain users? Maybe for this guy, I guess the very

0:32:25.240 --> 0:32:26.840
<v Speaker 2>creative ideas. Maybe let me check it out.

0:32:27.120 --> 0:32:28.680
<v Speaker 4>There's lots of pros and cons to doing that.

0:32:28.960 --> 0:32:31.080
<v Speaker 3>So we found that when we flipped it over that boundary,

0:32:31.160 --> 0:32:33.640
<v Speaker 3>sometimes it looks perfect, and then sometimes it looks really

0:32:33.680 --> 0:32:36.680
<v Speaker 3>like Uncanny Valley zombie like right, it's like upsetting. And

0:32:36.760 --> 0:32:39.200
<v Speaker 3>so right now, if we flip it, it's like kind

0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:41.920
<v Speaker 3>of say fifty fifty fifty some times looks perfect, sometimes

0:32:41.960 --> 0:32:44.640
<v Speaker 3>looks like uncanny, and the uncanny is so like upsetting

0:32:44.640 --> 0:32:46.960
<v Speaker 3>to me, as like a visual aesthetic person, I don't

0:32:46.960 --> 0:32:48.520
<v Speaker 3>want to make anything that looks like that, right, and

0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:50.760
<v Speaker 3>so like I just it's better to just not.

0:32:50.800 --> 0:32:51.520
<v Speaker 2>Allow that at all.

0:32:51.680 --> 0:32:53.440
<v Speaker 4>Maybe in the future it'll be so good that it

0:32:53.480 --> 0:32:56.000
<v Speaker 4>never looks unkenny and it'll take the technology is not.

0:32:56.800 --> 0:32:58.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean there's no chance, just to be clear,

0:32:58.600 --> 0:33:00.680
<v Speaker 2>there's no chance that in like five five years from

0:33:00.720 --> 0:33:03.320
<v Speaker 2>now that we won't be at a point where mid

0:33:03.400 --> 0:33:06.960
<v Speaker 2>Journey or other programs like it will be able to

0:33:07.000 --> 0:33:11.160
<v Speaker 2>create completely photorealistic, if not full moving images for sure,

0:33:11.440 --> 0:33:13.320
<v Speaker 2>still like in five years time, right.

0:33:13.280 --> 0:33:15.800
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Yeah, There's got to be multiple directions here.

0:33:15.880 --> 0:33:17.920
<v Speaker 3>I think one I'll be trying to like make photo

0:33:17.960 --> 0:33:20.120
<v Speaker 3>realistic duplications of reality, and I think the other want

0:33:20.120 --> 0:33:22.000
<v Speaker 3>to be like making things that are sort of super real,

0:33:22.080 --> 0:33:24.400
<v Speaker 3>like beyond real, right, And I think the beyond real

0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:26.440
<v Speaker 3>stuff is where it's both interesting as a human and

0:33:26.480 --> 0:33:28.640
<v Speaker 3>probably where all like like consumer and commercial stuff is.

0:33:29.400 --> 0:33:32.440
<v Speaker 2>I will say, I'm unabashedly like a fan of this thing,

0:33:32.600 --> 0:33:34.600
<v Speaker 2>but like I also can understand people's fear about it.

0:33:34.600 --> 0:33:35.840
<v Speaker 2>But people are afraid of a lot of things that

0:33:35.880 --> 0:33:38.320
<v Speaker 2>computers do, and for very good reason. I would also say,

0:33:38.320 --> 0:33:41.200
<v Speaker 2>and this is kind of your problem. People are afraid

0:33:41.240 --> 0:33:43.640
<v Speaker 2>of people like you. I don't mean you personally, You're

0:33:43.640 --> 0:33:47.640
<v Speaker 2>a lovely person as far as I know, but like

0:33:47.760 --> 0:33:50.200
<v Speaker 2>you are like, hey, I am interested in imagination all

0:33:50.240 --> 0:33:52.959
<v Speaker 2>these things. And like if you ask like a Mark Zuckerberg,

0:33:53.080 --> 0:33:55.120
<v Speaker 2>like the early stages of Facebook, you know, he would

0:33:55.160 --> 0:33:56.720
<v Speaker 2>be like, I just want to connect people, you know,

0:33:56.760 --> 0:33:59.440
<v Speaker 2>I just want people to like get together in this

0:33:59.520 --> 0:34:02.560
<v Speaker 2>social and environment or whatever and connect. But like, actually

0:34:03.040 --> 0:34:05.680
<v Speaker 2>down the road, as that thing developed, Mark Zuckerberg made

0:34:05.720 --> 0:34:08.200
<v Speaker 2>a lot of like really crazy, weird, bad decisions. They

0:34:08.239 --> 0:34:09.759
<v Speaker 2>don't have to go on record by agreeing with me,

0:34:09.840 --> 0:34:11.680
<v Speaker 2>but I think in your heart you know it's true.

0:34:12.000 --> 0:34:14.799
<v Speaker 2>And so what do you do to protect against like

0:34:14.880 --> 0:34:18.440
<v Speaker 2>these things that feel like creative decisions now? Right, Like,

0:34:18.480 --> 0:34:21.040
<v Speaker 2>we couldn't have seen the misinformation machine that Facebook was

0:34:21.080 --> 0:34:24.080
<v Speaker 2>going to become, with like all these bad actors and

0:34:24.120 --> 0:34:25.799
<v Speaker 2>all you know, sort of the ways that you could

0:34:25.800 --> 0:34:27.960
<v Speaker 2>abuse the systems, Like we didn't know that that was

0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:29.719
<v Speaker 2>going to be a thing until like we started to

0:34:29.719 --> 0:34:33.160
<v Speaker 2>see the actual abuse. How do you protect against the

0:34:33.160 --> 0:34:35.720
<v Speaker 2>things where you've got to take in like the worst

0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:38.360
<v Speaker 2>of humanity? Like, are you doing that on an active basis?

0:34:38.440 --> 0:34:38.520
<v Speaker 3>Right?

0:34:38.520 --> 0:34:40.080
<v Speaker 2>Because like the thing with a tool like this is

0:34:40.080 --> 0:34:43.240
<v Speaker 2>that the best parts of humanity will find like amazing

0:34:43.239 --> 0:34:44.880
<v Speaker 2>things to do with it. But there is an equal

0:34:45.440 --> 0:34:48.480
<v Speaker 2>opposite actor there, right, who will do the worst things

0:34:48.520 --> 0:34:50.080
<v Speaker 2>with it. So tell me, like how that you build

0:34:50.080 --> 0:34:53.640
<v Speaker 2>a product like this and don't let it become destructive.

0:34:54.600 --> 0:34:55.040
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:34:55.080 --> 0:35:01.360
<v Speaker 3>So my life philosophy is that creators imbuing their values

0:35:01.400 --> 0:35:03.759
<v Speaker 3>and the things they create, whether they know it or not,

0:35:04.080 --> 0:35:05.879
<v Speaker 3>and that those things have a way of spreading those

0:35:05.960 --> 0:35:09.240
<v Speaker 3>values even when they're no longer around. That does actually

0:35:09.239 --> 0:35:12.279
<v Speaker 3>put a lot of blame on people like Zuckerberg. It

0:35:12.320 --> 0:35:14.840
<v Speaker 3>implies that he made Facebook with the wrong values. I

0:35:14.840 --> 0:35:17.480
<v Speaker 3>don't know, Mark, But an interesting example that I like

0:35:17.520 --> 0:35:20.840
<v Speaker 3>to think about is the defaults of something like Facebook

0:35:20.920 --> 0:35:23.440
<v Speaker 3>versus MySpace. Like obviously he was aware of MySpace. We

0:35:23.480 --> 0:35:25.120
<v Speaker 3>know that, right, definitely with the main compeditor.

0:35:25.239 --> 0:35:25.560
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:35:25.600 --> 0:35:27.759
<v Speaker 3>And when I remember going out to MySpace for the

0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:30.080
<v Speaker 3>first time and my page was blank and it' said

0:35:30.080 --> 0:35:32.200
<v Speaker 3>I had one friend, I was like, who's my friend?

0:35:32.280 --> 0:35:34.880
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, it's Tom, Right, Who's Tom? You know,

0:35:35.000 --> 0:35:37.440
<v Speaker 3>it's this nice guy he's the guy maker of MySpace.

0:35:37.560 --> 0:35:39.640
<v Speaker 3>This is cool, Like Tom's my friend. He must care

0:35:39.680 --> 0:35:41.480
<v Speaker 3>about me. I bet I could make other friends that

0:35:41.520 --> 0:35:43.600
<v Speaker 3>I don't know, like my face's places where I can

0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:46.879
<v Speaker 3>make friends, right, and Tom cares. And when you sign

0:35:46.960 --> 0:35:49.680
<v Speaker 3>on to Facebook, you have no friends and markus certainly

0:35:49.719 --> 0:35:50.320
<v Speaker 3>not your friend.

0:35:51.920 --> 0:35:53.960
<v Speaker 2>I never consider this. But he's not your first friend

0:35:53.960 --> 0:35:56.319
<v Speaker 2>on Facebook. That's definitely like what the fuck does that mean?

0:35:56.719 --> 0:35:57.799
<v Speaker 2>What the fuck does that mean?

0:35:58.120 --> 0:35:59.719
<v Speaker 3>Not only is he not your first friend, but you

0:35:59.760 --> 0:36:02.359
<v Speaker 3>have no friends when you join right right right? When

0:36:02.360 --> 0:36:06.839
<v Speaker 3>you join Facebook, you are this friendless non person then,

0:36:06.920 --> 0:36:08.800
<v Speaker 3>and you have to try to grab out to anybody

0:36:08.800 --> 0:36:11.359
<v Speaker 3>who you already know, like please, somebody who already knows

0:36:11.360 --> 0:36:12.839
<v Speaker 3>me be my friend on Facebook? Right?

0:36:12.920 --> 0:36:14.160
<v Speaker 2>Interesting? Huh?

0:36:14.200 --> 0:36:18.480
<v Speaker 3>And like these there's like these really deep details that

0:36:19.239 --> 0:36:21.759
<v Speaker 3>are made by real people who have values, Like he

0:36:21.800 --> 0:36:23.799
<v Speaker 3>had to think about this, obviously he thought about Like

0:36:24.000 --> 0:36:26.160
<v Speaker 3>he's not dumb, like he must have thought about it.

0:36:26.360 --> 0:36:28.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean maybe he wanted to be your first friend,

0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:31.279
<v Speaker 2>but they were like actually, like MySpace, Tom could sue

0:36:31.360 --> 0:36:34.960
<v Speaker 2>us for like IP stuff like infringement if we do

0:36:35.040 --> 0:36:36.080
<v Speaker 2>the same thing that he did.

0:36:36.200 --> 0:36:37.960
<v Speaker 3>You know, I think we know he wasn't that cautious

0:36:37.960 --> 0:36:41.200
<v Speaker 3>about being suited because it happened, right, Uh, that's true.

0:36:41.280 --> 0:36:41.600
<v Speaker 5>I mean.

0:36:52.719 --> 0:36:54.560
<v Speaker 3>There's a lot of interesting things like that. I think

0:36:54.560 --> 0:36:57.799
<v Speaker 3>that actually maybe everything is that way. The goal is

0:36:57.840 --> 0:36:59.680
<v Speaker 3>like not to not make things, but to make things

0:36:59.719 --> 0:37:03.640
<v Speaker 3>with like really good values and and to have people

0:37:03.640 --> 0:37:06.319
<v Speaker 3>with good values making things, and like that making things

0:37:06.400 --> 0:37:08.640
<v Speaker 3>is not equivalent between any people.

0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:11.080
<v Speaker 2>I agree with you, but like what is the expression,

0:37:11.200 --> 0:37:13.400
<v Speaker 2>like the road to Hell's paved with good intentions? Whatever?

0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:16.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I agree that that you can avoid some

0:37:17.080 --> 0:37:19.440
<v Speaker 2>of these mistakes like if you have a different set

0:37:19.480 --> 0:37:22.280
<v Speaker 2>of like goals or values, But like do you already

0:37:22.280 --> 0:37:25.279
<v Speaker 2>do things with mid Journey where you're trying to sort

0:37:25.280 --> 0:37:28.600
<v Speaker 2>of protect against like misuse, right, Like yeah, obviously like

0:37:28.680 --> 0:37:31.840
<v Speaker 2>hate speech or images of violence. I mean I definitely

0:37:31.840 --> 0:37:33.360
<v Speaker 2>like tried some stuff that I didn't think was like

0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:35.279
<v Speaker 2>going to produce a violent result, and it was like,

0:37:35.320 --> 0:37:37.160
<v Speaker 2>we don't do like this kind of image or whatever.

0:37:37.280 --> 0:37:37.560
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:37:37.640 --> 0:37:39.360
<v Speaker 2>I actually have a question about porn, which is a

0:37:39.360 --> 0:37:41.759
<v Speaker 2>big one. Go ahead, Yeah, I mean my guess is

0:37:41.960 --> 0:37:44.960
<v Speaker 2>if you wanted Mid Journey to create like incredible original

0:37:45.080 --> 0:37:48.040
<v Speaker 2>like porn scenes, because there's a lot of pornography on

0:37:48.080 --> 0:37:49.839
<v Speaker 2>the Internet, right, would you say there's quite a bit

0:37:49.880 --> 0:37:52.480
<v Speaker 2>of it, and it's all a visual medium basically. Yeah,

0:37:52.520 --> 0:37:55.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean there's obviously some erotica out there. There's somewhere

0:37:55.400 --> 0:37:57.880
<v Speaker 2>You've got the X rated Mid Journey instance running right

0:37:57.880 --> 0:38:00.239
<v Speaker 2>where I can create like full on porn scenes, right,

0:38:01.400 --> 0:38:03.520
<v Speaker 2>don't lie to me. I know the truth. Somebody there

0:38:03.600 --> 0:38:04.120
<v Speaker 2>is doing it.

0:38:04.440 --> 0:38:04.640
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:38:04.680 --> 0:38:06.640
<v Speaker 3>You know, when I first thought about this problem, I

0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:09.040
<v Speaker 3>was like, who wants an AI generated booty?

0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:10.760
<v Speaker 2>Who doesn't?

0:38:11.200 --> 0:38:13.600
<v Speaker 3>And then like, honestly, as the albhims get over time,

0:38:13.800 --> 0:38:15.920
<v Speaker 3>like I see some booty, then I'm like, it's a

0:38:15.920 --> 0:38:18.439
<v Speaker 3>pretty nice booty, Like it's pretty good, pretty good. Yeah,

0:38:18.440 --> 0:38:20.520
<v Speaker 3>Like it obviously can do really good like just how

0:38:20.560 --> 0:38:21.880
<v Speaker 3>you can make beautiful anything else.

0:38:22.400 --> 0:38:24.319
<v Speaker 2>I mean that's a huge deal though, Like I can't

0:38:24.360 --> 0:38:28.480
<v Speaker 2>even do like a Renaissance painting of nudes like tasteful

0:38:29.000 --> 0:38:32.920
<v Speaker 2>artistic news with mid Journey correct, No, right, Like is

0:38:32.920 --> 0:38:34.759
<v Speaker 2>there a tier where I can do nudes? This is

0:38:34.800 --> 0:38:37.440
<v Speaker 2>really just I'm asking for myself. But like, you know, no,

0:38:37.800 --> 0:38:39.600
<v Speaker 2>you're not gonna let anybody ever do a nude.

0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:42.920
<v Speaker 3>I you know, I think it's about like, what is

0:38:42.960 --> 0:38:45.560
<v Speaker 3>the thing that like helps the world, like what and

0:38:45.600 --> 0:38:47.879
<v Speaker 3>so like. For example, there are two things we have tried.

0:38:47.920 --> 0:38:49.879
<v Speaker 3>I can give you two stories. Okay, Well, one is

0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:52.479
<v Speaker 3>when their system wasn't filtering well enough, you'd have people

0:38:52.520 --> 0:38:55.680
<v Speaker 3>trying to basically create like their fantasy person basically and

0:38:55.719 --> 0:38:59.640
<v Speaker 3>they're like becomes super fixated on like this redhead whatever,

0:38:59.840 --> 0:39:02.560
<v Speaker 3>like it becomes this very specific thing over time. Right,

0:39:02.680 --> 0:39:05.640
<v Speaker 3>I don't know if that feels healthy. It's certainly a market.

0:39:06.160 --> 0:39:09.200
<v Speaker 2>Right, I mean, by the way that phrase, I don't

0:39:09.200 --> 0:39:11.120
<v Speaker 2>know if it's healthy, but it's certainly a market. Is

0:39:11.200 --> 0:39:13.919
<v Speaker 2>like ninety percent of the things that are available online,

0:39:14.120 --> 0:39:16.560
<v Speaker 2>like literally social media is like I don't know if

0:39:16.560 --> 0:39:18.319
<v Speaker 2>it's healthy, but there's certainly to.

0:39:18.440 --> 0:39:20.120
<v Speaker 3>Someone's going to do it, and I think it's not

0:39:20.200 --> 0:39:23.560
<v Speaker 3>going to be healthy right now. There are other things

0:39:23.560 --> 0:39:26.200
<v Speaker 3>that we tried. So for example, we did this thing

0:39:26.200 --> 0:39:28.440
<v Speaker 3>where we created this chat room and we called it

0:39:28.760 --> 0:39:31.520
<v Speaker 3>not safe, don't judge, and we threw like a hundred

0:39:31.560 --> 0:39:33.480
<v Speaker 3>people into it, and we turned off all the filters,

0:39:33.560 --> 0:39:35.160
<v Speaker 3>oh my god, just to see what would happen, Oh

0:39:35.200 --> 0:39:37.040
<v Speaker 3>my god, And it was really interesting. We put them

0:39:37.080 --> 0:39:38.640
<v Speaker 3>all in and we go, there's no filters everybody. You

0:39:38.680 --> 0:39:40.040
<v Speaker 3>can do whatever you want, but everyone else is going

0:39:40.040 --> 0:39:41.120
<v Speaker 3>to see what you see. There's got to be some

0:39:41.120 --> 0:39:43.759
<v Speaker 3>people who would be shameless in that scenario. It was

0:39:43.880 --> 0:39:47.680
<v Speaker 3>very quiet at first, and then someone goes boobs and

0:39:47.719 --> 0:39:50.839
<v Speaker 3>then there's some booth pictures and someone goes like ass

0:39:50.960 --> 0:39:52.440
<v Speaker 3>and that it was a good ass picture, and everyone's

0:39:52.480 --> 0:39:53.759
<v Speaker 3>like kind of startled it for us, like they didn't

0:39:53.760 --> 0:39:56.400
<v Speaker 3>know what to do, right, and then somebody goes, uh,

0:39:56.560 --> 0:39:59.200
<v Speaker 3>fifty percent orgy in a Walmart and it just like

0:39:59.280 --> 0:40:02.200
<v Speaker 3>these piles of good bodies in a Walmart sounds very disturbing.

0:40:02.280 --> 0:40:04.200
<v Speaker 3>And then all of a sudden, everyone else goes, uh,

0:40:04.360 --> 0:40:07.360
<v Speaker 3>it was fifty percent orgy in space, alien orgies, and

0:40:07.360 --> 0:40:09.120
<v Speaker 3>then all of a sudden everyone starts losing their minds

0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:11.600
<v Speaker 3>and it gets really strange. Eventually it went to like

0:40:11.760 --> 0:40:14.600
<v Speaker 3>Bill Cosby eating out Hitler, Like it got pretty intense.

0:40:14.840 --> 0:40:17.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, I mean that's a very, that's a very,

0:40:18.200 --> 0:40:21.880
<v Speaker 2>that's a full cancel on that image. I would say, yeah, everything, But.

0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:26.800
<v Speaker 3>What was happening was like it became so absurd, Yeah,

0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:30.319
<v Speaker 3>that everyone just started to kind of like let go

0:40:31.400 --> 0:40:33.920
<v Speaker 3>of all of the bullshit that they knew that like

0:40:34.120 --> 0:40:36.320
<v Speaker 3>that they would normally be outraged of. And when somebody

0:40:36.320 --> 0:40:39.520
<v Speaker 3>finally did Bill Cosby eating out Hitler, like that was

0:40:39.560 --> 0:40:41.240
<v Speaker 3>like an hour in okay.

0:40:41.080 --> 0:40:43.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and is that when you shut it down? Was

0:40:43.080 --> 0:40:44.279
<v Speaker 2>that this was that when you closed that?

0:40:44.440 --> 0:40:45.719
<v Speaker 4>I shut it down shortly after.

0:40:45.880 --> 0:40:48.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But that's like such a small sample and like

0:40:48.840 --> 0:40:51.799
<v Speaker 2>it went immediately to a place that would defend like

0:40:51.920 --> 0:40:55.400
<v Speaker 2>probably ninety nine percent of the normal users of the Internet.

0:40:56.040 --> 0:40:58.400
<v Speaker 3>But I think what's interesting to hop about psychological experience

0:40:58.440 --> 0:41:00.359
<v Speaker 3>of all people had in this room as it went

0:41:00.360 --> 0:41:02.640
<v Speaker 3>from like boobs right to like, you know, they kind

0:41:02.640 --> 0:41:05.320
<v Speaker 3>of escalated to like fifty percent orgy in Walmart.

0:41:05.719 --> 0:41:08.360
<v Speaker 2>Isn't that what always happens though, like you're testing the limits.

0:41:08.360 --> 0:41:10.520
<v Speaker 3>No, but like no, but what happened was it's like

0:41:10.920 --> 0:41:14.200
<v Speaker 3>at some point they kind of like let go right

0:41:14.520 --> 0:41:16.839
<v Speaker 3>during this process and they were like it doesn't matter anymore. Yeah,

0:41:16.880 --> 0:41:19.440
<v Speaker 3>Bill cosbyah Hitler, that's really funny. Or someone else did

0:41:19.480 --> 0:41:21.880
<v Speaker 3>like Michael Jackson's asshole and it did like a buttthole

0:41:22.239 --> 0:41:23.919
<v Speaker 3>where the hole was Michael Jackson's face.

0:41:24.040 --> 0:41:27.279
<v Speaker 4>It was funny, it was weird, you know, those people.

0:41:27.000 --> 0:41:29.280
<v Speaker 2>Thought it was funny, but like a very large audience

0:41:29.280 --> 0:41:31.520
<v Speaker 2>would not think that was funny. So the thing so like,

0:41:31.600 --> 0:41:33.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's not funny, like at it at a

0:41:33.480 --> 0:41:35.760
<v Speaker 2>kind of basic level, like you know, the Cosby stuff

0:41:35.800 --> 0:41:38.160
<v Speaker 2>is really fucked up and Hitler is Hitler. So like

0:41:38.239 --> 0:41:40.759
<v Speaker 2>at a really kind of basic level. If you're like

0:41:40.840 --> 0:41:43.200
<v Speaker 2>in good taste, that's very very not in good But

0:41:43.400 --> 0:41:45.200
<v Speaker 2>there was no taste anymore. It was like everyone just

0:41:45.200 --> 0:41:45.759
<v Speaker 2>like lost it.

0:41:45.800 --> 0:41:48.839
<v Speaker 3>They're like, look, nothing matters, like it's all bullshit, like

0:41:48.880 --> 0:41:50.840
<v Speaker 3>it doesn't really like everyone kind of let go. It

0:41:50.880 --> 0:41:53.880
<v Speaker 3>felt very ethartic. At first, they were really shy, and

0:41:53.920 --> 0:41:56.319
<v Speaker 3>by the end they had all let go. Yeah, it

0:41:56.400 --> 0:41:59.000
<v Speaker 3>was kind of a beautiful process. I don't know though,

0:41:59.040 --> 0:42:01.279
<v Speaker 3>but like it went to a place that was pretty offensive, right.

0:42:01.440 --> 0:42:03.880
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I'm glad that you don't allow that particular

0:42:03.920 --> 0:42:06.120
<v Speaker 3>type of use in the broad I think it was

0:42:06.160 --> 0:42:08.280
<v Speaker 3>really interesting and I would say everybody who was involved

0:42:08.280 --> 0:42:10.200
<v Speaker 3>in the Spear and stelt it with like cathartic, right,

0:42:10.280 --> 0:42:13.200
<v Speaker 3>and a positive like spiritual experience, right, because they realized

0:42:13.239 --> 0:42:15.880
<v Speaker 3>how pent up they were in stupid ways and like

0:42:15.920 --> 0:42:17.920
<v Speaker 3>maybe the last thing was bad, like we could.

0:42:17.800 --> 0:42:19.520
<v Speaker 4>Say that was bad, but there was something.

0:42:19.280 --> 0:42:21.239
<v Speaker 2>No the last thing was bad. The last one was bad.

0:42:21.280 --> 0:42:23.239
<v Speaker 2>I don't I don't want to be like a you know,

0:42:23.400 --> 0:42:26.600
<v Speaker 2>like the policing culture or whatever. But I mean you

0:42:26.600 --> 0:42:28.600
<v Speaker 2>could do it, but no. But the reality is like,

0:42:28.680 --> 0:42:30.799
<v Speaker 2>actually like it. I think that raises an interesting sort

0:42:30.800 --> 0:42:34.160
<v Speaker 2>of scenario, And it's like, what do people do when

0:42:34.200 --> 0:42:36.719
<v Speaker 2>given this kind of unbridled power to create whatever's in

0:42:36.760 --> 0:42:38.719
<v Speaker 2>their mind? Like I like to think people come up

0:42:38.760 --> 0:42:41.880
<v Speaker 2>with like really cool stuff that's like awesome, but definitely

0:42:41.920 --> 0:42:43.759
<v Speaker 2>for sure, there's a segment of the audience. And this

0:42:43.760 --> 0:42:45.680
<v Speaker 2>is actually gets back to what I was asking, which

0:42:45.719 --> 0:42:48.320
<v Speaker 2>is like, so you ran an experiment with a roomful of people.

0:42:48.320 --> 0:42:50.440
<v Speaker 2>They were just like users, like test like beta users

0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:50.920
<v Speaker 2>or something.

0:42:51.360 --> 0:42:52.280
<v Speaker 4>There was a bunch of users.

0:42:52.320 --> 0:42:54.000
<v Speaker 3>We did it for one hour, right, and I said,

0:42:54.000 --> 0:42:56.080
<v Speaker 3>if anybody leaked an image, I would ban them for life.

0:42:56.320 --> 0:42:58.520
<v Speaker 2>Right. So that's your little kind of window into it.

0:42:58.520 --> 0:43:01.080
<v Speaker 2>You're like, Okay, this could get pretty crazy. Oh yeah, obviously,

0:43:01.160 --> 0:43:03.240
<v Speaker 2>the way you've built the system is that you cannot

0:43:03.239 --> 0:43:05.520
<v Speaker 2>do those things. I guess. Like the question is like

0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:09.120
<v Speaker 2>do you have to be constantly vigilant about like the

0:43:09.160 --> 0:43:11.400
<v Speaker 2>ways that the thing might be abused? Like how do

0:43:11.440 --> 0:43:14.399
<v Speaker 2>you counter like abuse you haven't even thought of yet.

0:43:14.600 --> 0:43:17.200
<v Speaker 3>We have like forty moderators who kind of watch things

0:43:17.360 --> 0:43:19.080
<v Speaker 3>and then they just they have they have a little

0:43:19.200 --> 0:43:22.240
<v Speaker 3>slash band commands, so they say slash band titties and also,

0:43:22.360 --> 0:43:23.640
<v Speaker 3>no key is the word titties anymore?

0:43:23.840 --> 0:43:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Right? Are you actively like yesterday, was there something that

0:43:26.640 --> 0:43:30.279
<v Speaker 2>mid Journey produced that was like a surprise to the moderators.

0:43:30.480 --> 0:43:32.400
<v Speaker 4>I know that there are words that were banned today.

0:43:32.880 --> 0:43:35.440
<v Speaker 2>Like what what was banned? I'm super curious, Like, but

0:43:35.480 --> 0:43:37.400
<v Speaker 2>today you're way far into it. There's like, how many

0:43:37.440 --> 0:43:39.680
<v Speaker 2>people have used mid Journey? Do you know the numbers? Million,

0:43:39.840 --> 0:43:43.040
<v Speaker 2>millions of people. Yeah, so millions of people have been

0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:46.640
<v Speaker 2>in there. But you're still today as of October fifth

0:43:46.719 --> 0:43:49.640
<v Speaker 2>or whatever. Yeah, you've banned words. I'd love to know

0:43:49.680 --> 0:43:51.040
<v Speaker 2>what the last band word was.

0:43:51.400 --> 0:43:53.759
<v Speaker 3>Moderators came back recently and they're like, David, we want

0:43:53.800 --> 0:43:58.240
<v Speaker 3>to unband the following words blood, bloody, sexy, kill, killing, cutting, disturbing,

0:43:58.280 --> 0:43:58.640
<v Speaker 3>and gut.

0:43:59.560 --> 0:44:01.560
<v Speaker 2>Wow. What an image.

0:44:01.680 --> 0:44:03.799
<v Speaker 3>They're like, what do you think, David? We could probably

0:44:03.880 --> 0:44:05.640
<v Speaker 3>unban those things. And I was like, Okay, let me

0:44:05.680 --> 0:44:08.680
<v Speaker 3>think about this. Uh, child with guts, Bible across the ground,

0:44:08.680 --> 0:44:11.759
<v Speaker 3>disturbing huge pools of blood and like, ooh, yeah, we

0:44:11.760 --> 0:44:14.279
<v Speaker 3>probably don't want that right where I was like a

0:44:14.440 --> 0:44:17.399
<v Speaker 3>little girl cutting themselves, Like oh yeah, that seems bad right.

0:44:17.560 --> 0:44:19.560
<v Speaker 2>Well key, But so here's my question for you, And

0:44:19.600 --> 0:44:21.480
<v Speaker 2>I think you've got like kind of a crazy responsibility.

0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:23.120
<v Speaker 2>And I'm not saying this to be a jerk at all,

0:44:23.160 --> 0:44:26.960
<v Speaker 2>but like you're just like a guy who's interested in

0:44:27.000 --> 0:44:29.640
<v Speaker 2>creating this product and create this kind of beautiful and

0:44:29.680 --> 0:44:34.080
<v Speaker 2>imaginative and exciting images and beyond. But you're not like

0:44:34.600 --> 0:44:36.840
<v Speaker 2>a linguist. I don't know you're all of your background,

0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:39.080
<v Speaker 2>but I mean, like you're not like an ethicist. Do

0:44:39.080 --> 0:44:41.640
<v Speaker 2>you employ an ethicist at the company? Do you employ

0:44:41.760 --> 0:44:45.239
<v Speaker 2>like linguistic experts? How diverse is the team? I think

0:44:45.239 --> 0:44:47.000
<v Speaker 2>these are like things that people are going to want

0:44:47.000 --> 0:44:48.800
<v Speaker 2>to know, which is like you mentioned the Bill Cosby

0:44:48.880 --> 0:44:50.520
<v Speaker 2>Hitler thing, and I can think of like a bunch

0:44:50.560 --> 0:44:53.440
<v Speaker 2>of people who are not like a white Jewish guy.

0:44:53.440 --> 0:44:54.759
<v Speaker 2>And I say this as a white Jewish guy who

0:44:54.760 --> 0:44:57.640
<v Speaker 2>would be much more offended about some of that stuff,

0:44:57.719 --> 0:44:59.760
<v Speaker 2>or people with different experience.

0:44:59.800 --> 0:45:01.759
<v Speaker 3>That as an example of a pretty outrageous thing that

0:45:01.800 --> 0:45:03.400
<v Speaker 3>was my outrageous and I get that, and no, no, I

0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:04.040
<v Speaker 3>understand it.

0:45:04.040 --> 0:45:05.719
<v Speaker 2>Like you were in this experiment, somebody took you to

0:45:05.800 --> 0:45:07.480
<v Speaker 2>this crazy place and then you're like, all right, we

0:45:07.480 --> 0:45:09.120
<v Speaker 2>got to shut it down. This is sort of what

0:45:09.160 --> 0:45:10.560
<v Speaker 2>I was trying to get to is like, how do

0:45:10.680 --> 0:45:13.880
<v Speaker 2>you make a company that has all the lofty and

0:45:13.920 --> 0:45:16.960
<v Speaker 2>interesting and exciting ideals I think you have, but also

0:45:17.560 --> 0:45:21.280
<v Speaker 2>protect against building a product that ultimately ends up repeating

0:45:21.320 --> 0:45:23.480
<v Speaker 2>the mistakes of the facebooks or the twitters of the world.

0:45:24.040 --> 0:45:26.239
<v Speaker 2>And the question does come down to, like when you're

0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:30.040
<v Speaker 2>having those conversations, who's in the room, who's having that

0:45:30.080 --> 0:45:32.239
<v Speaker 2>conversation with you? Like, what are you going to do?

0:45:32.680 --> 0:45:35.120
<v Speaker 2>This is my being putting my hardcore journalist hat on,

0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:36.560
<v Speaker 2>Like what are you going to do to make sure

0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:38.319
<v Speaker 2>that you have conversations with a big enough set of

0:45:38.320 --> 0:45:40.520
<v Speaker 2>people and with a smart enough set of people who

0:45:40.520 --> 0:45:43.080
<v Speaker 2>are experts in these fields, like in the fields of

0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:46.520
<v Speaker 2>like ethics and linguistics and like you know, history, and

0:45:46.520 --> 0:45:48.520
<v Speaker 2>that it's a diverse group, like to actually make a

0:45:48.520 --> 0:45:51.000
<v Speaker 2>product that serves everybody and not just one that feels

0:45:51.000 --> 0:45:53.399
<v Speaker 2>like cool to like a couple of you know, Jewish guys,

0:45:53.440 --> 0:45:55.759
<v Speaker 2>like us, but may not work for a million other

0:45:55.760 --> 0:45:56.560
<v Speaker 2>people in the world.

0:45:57.360 --> 0:46:00.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean there's a lot of questions there. I'm

0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:03.320
<v Speaker 3>okay not serving everybody. Like if this is I Maginty's

0:46:03.320 --> 0:46:05.080
<v Speaker 3>a two million person thing, is ever bigger than that, I'm.

0:46:04.960 --> 0:46:06.960
<v Speaker 2>Happy with that. But you want to make it inclusive,

0:46:06.960 --> 0:46:08.840
<v Speaker 2>I would assume, Yeah, I want it to be inclusive.

0:46:08.840 --> 0:46:10.320
<v Speaker 3>But also if it's only two million people, I'd be

0:46:10.320 --> 0:46:12.279
<v Speaker 3>okay with that, Like I don't, like, I'm not I

0:46:12.280 --> 0:46:13.480
<v Speaker 3>don't have this like this desire.

0:46:13.520 --> 0:46:15.000
<v Speaker 2>You want two million of the same people, though you

0:46:15.040 --> 0:46:17.320
<v Speaker 2>don't want two million to the same people, two million

0:46:17.320 --> 0:46:18.280
<v Speaker 2>white Jewish guys.

0:46:18.480 --> 0:46:20.920
<v Speaker 3>If it makes two million white Jewish guys really happy

0:46:20.960 --> 0:46:23.839
<v Speaker 3>and improves their lives in a significant way, like they've

0:46:23.840 --> 0:46:26.000
<v Speaker 3>made the world better. Now, obviously I'd like to make

0:46:26.040 --> 0:46:28.960
<v Speaker 3>it diverse, like and we try really hard there. But

0:46:29.120 --> 0:46:30.759
<v Speaker 3>like I mean, at the end of the day, it's

0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:33.040
<v Speaker 3>it's more important that it's good for the people who

0:46:33.040 --> 0:46:34.759
<v Speaker 3>interact with it then that it has as many people

0:46:34.760 --> 0:46:35.400
<v Speaker 3>as possible.

0:46:35.680 --> 0:46:36.839
<v Speaker 4>And that's the first trade off.

0:46:37.000 --> 0:46:38.799
<v Speaker 3>That's the first that's a huge trade off, because most

0:46:38.800 --> 0:46:40.719
<v Speaker 3>people decided to not make that trade off.

0:46:40.800 --> 0:46:42.520
<v Speaker 2>No, I agree with you that, like, if you're thinking

0:46:42.520 --> 0:46:44.840
<v Speaker 2>of like the infinite audience, obviously you don't want to

0:46:44.840 --> 0:46:47.480
<v Speaker 2>be like every person should be in this thing or

0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:49.759
<v Speaker 2>using this thing or whatever. But like, I guess it's

0:46:49.800 --> 0:46:52.799
<v Speaker 2>such a sensitive space where like you've built a tool

0:46:52.840 --> 0:46:54.960
<v Speaker 2>that can create something out of nothing, Like you build

0:46:55.000 --> 0:46:58.960
<v Speaker 2>a tool that can make a dream look like real basically,

0:46:59.080 --> 0:47:00.960
<v Speaker 2>And so yeah, you know, how do you do it

0:47:00.960 --> 0:47:02.960
<v Speaker 2>the right way? But I feel like here's a chance

0:47:03.360 --> 0:47:05.239
<v Speaker 2>to bring a bunch of people into the conversation that

0:47:05.440 --> 0:47:08.080
<v Speaker 2>were never there at Google on day one. When I

0:47:08.080 --> 0:47:10.840
<v Speaker 2>think about any new technology like this, I always think now,

0:47:11.360 --> 0:47:13.840
<v Speaker 2>and perhaps because I've been so abused by the technology

0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:17.120
<v Speaker 2>companies that have existed before us, you know what could

0:47:17.120 --> 0:47:19.680
<v Speaker 2>go wrong? Right? And how do you prevent that?

0:47:20.640 --> 0:47:22.799
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there are a lot of things we do, so

0:47:22.920 --> 0:47:26.040
<v Speaker 3>like I do office hours every week for four hours

0:47:26.080 --> 0:47:28.000
<v Speaker 3>where I just talk to as many people as I can.

0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:30.160
<v Speaker 3>Sometimes I'll do a theme thing like I brought up

0:47:30.200 --> 0:47:32.120
<v Speaker 3>like twelve women once and I said, like, let's have

0:47:32.160 --> 0:47:34.640
<v Speaker 3>a women panel, and I want to ask everybody how

0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:38.280
<v Speaker 3>do you feel about bikini photos? Like should I ban bikini?

0:47:38.320 --> 0:47:40.920
<v Speaker 2>And that's one way of getting the women's side of things.

0:47:41.040 --> 0:47:44.319
<v Speaker 3>Because every single day I heard some asshole dude who's like,

0:47:44.520 --> 0:47:46.919
<v Speaker 3>hits are natural. I like, bikini photos, have as many

0:47:46.920 --> 0:47:49.120
<v Speaker 3>as you can, and then like women who are uncomfortable,

0:47:49.239 --> 0:47:50.359
<v Speaker 3>And I was like, you know what, I just want

0:47:50.360 --> 0:47:52.480
<v Speaker 3>to hear a bunch of women talk about this issue

0:47:52.480 --> 0:47:54.279
<v Speaker 3>of how do you feel aout the bikini photos and

0:47:54.320 --> 0:47:55.479
<v Speaker 3>like I will do whatever you say.

0:47:55.800 --> 0:47:57.400
<v Speaker 4>I was like, should I ban bikinis? That was like

0:47:57.400 --> 0:47:58.120
<v Speaker 4>the simplest question.

0:47:58.200 --> 0:47:59.239
<v Speaker 2>Did you ban bikinis?

0:47:59.480 --> 0:48:02.560
<v Speaker 3>They decided group like we do not want you to

0:48:02.640 --> 0:48:05.640
<v Speaker 3>band bikinis, like ninety five percent. It was like pretty unanimous,

0:48:05.880 --> 0:48:07.480
<v Speaker 3>but we want you to hide them so that none

0:48:07.480 --> 0:48:09.880
<v Speaker 3>of us ever have to see some dude making a bikini.

0:48:10.560 --> 0:48:11.359
<v Speaker 4>And so that's what we did.

0:48:12.160 --> 0:48:14.279
<v Speaker 2>It's a good middle ground. To me, this is so

0:48:14.360 --> 0:48:17.200
<v Speaker 2>weird because like the reality is like the naked human

0:48:17.200 --> 0:48:19.520
<v Speaker 2>body is that I'm not like, on its face offensive

0:48:19.520 --> 0:48:21.440
<v Speaker 2>to me in any way, Like it's like very normal.

0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:23.000
<v Speaker 4>I agree, Yeah, And.

0:48:22.960 --> 0:48:24.800
<v Speaker 2>It's like funny to think that you've got a buffer

0:48:24.840 --> 0:48:27.680
<v Speaker 2>against like people abusing the system who are making weird

0:48:27.760 --> 0:48:30.280
<v Speaker 2>like you know, sexual bikini photos or whatever.

0:48:30.560 --> 0:48:32.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean what the women basically said on the

0:48:32.640 --> 0:48:34.520
<v Speaker 3>on the whole is that they're like they're basically even

0:48:34.560 --> 0:48:36.000
<v Speaker 3>we like a little cleavage, but like.

0:48:35.920 --> 0:48:37.360
<v Speaker 4>What an average guy thinks it's sexy.

0:48:37.400 --> 0:48:39.200
<v Speaker 3>It's really easy for most of us to find creepy

0:48:39.239 --> 0:48:41.879
<v Speaker 3>and unwelcoming, and so basically we don't have we don't

0:48:41.880 --> 0:48:43.880
<v Speaker 3>feel like we should have to see that like against

0:48:43.920 --> 0:48:44.319
<v Speaker 3>our will.

0:48:44.440 --> 0:48:46.880
<v Speaker 2>That's so true both in AI and in life.

0:48:47.719 --> 0:48:50.800
<v Speaker 3>There's a lot of these sort of nuanced things like technically,

0:48:50.880 --> 0:48:52.680
<v Speaker 3>it probably should be able to do a tasteful nude,

0:48:52.680 --> 0:48:54.080
<v Speaker 3>but it shouldn't be able to do like a hyper

0:48:54.080 --> 0:48:57.160
<v Speaker 3>sexualized nude. Like technically like that seems right, you know,

0:48:57.520 --> 0:48:59.880
<v Speaker 3>but it's it's hard. That's a really hard boundary, you know.

0:49:00.440 --> 0:49:02.120
<v Speaker 3>I mean it's a question of art, right, Like, yeah,

0:49:02.160 --> 0:49:03.880
<v Speaker 3>what's porn? It's like, well, you know when you see it,

0:49:04.080 --> 0:49:06.279
<v Speaker 3>and it's like, but there's different levels of that, right,

0:49:07.000 --> 0:49:09.320
<v Speaker 3>have we even trying to teach the system? Actually lately

0:49:09.800 --> 0:49:11.920
<v Speaker 3>some of these nuances. We have certain users who go

0:49:12.000 --> 0:49:14.279
<v Speaker 3>in and they rate images randomly. Right, We find that

0:49:14.320 --> 0:49:16.880
<v Speaker 3>on the whole, people very rarely say anything is offensive,

0:49:17.040 --> 0:49:19.719
<v Speaker 3>like very rare, so when they say it, it's interesting, right,

0:49:19.760 --> 0:49:21.719
<v Speaker 3>And then we and we aggreate all those together, and

0:49:21.719 --> 0:49:24.320
<v Speaker 3>then we teach the AI. We're like, hey, regardless of

0:49:24.360 --> 0:49:26.319
<v Speaker 3>whether or not something is offensive, this is how people

0:49:26.320 --> 0:49:27.640
<v Speaker 3>are responding to your images.

0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:28.200
<v Speaker 2>Interesting.

0:49:28.480 --> 0:49:30.560
<v Speaker 4>And then what it does it actually changed its behavior?

0:49:31.440 --> 0:49:34.440
<v Speaker 2>Do you worry you're you're creating a kind of prudish AI? Like,

0:49:34.480 --> 0:49:36.560
<v Speaker 2>do you worry that, like you're actually making a sexually

0:49:36.600 --> 0:49:39.200
<v Speaker 2>repressed AI that like is going to be weird about

0:49:39.239 --> 0:49:40.560
<v Speaker 2>sex and human bodies.

0:49:41.040 --> 0:49:44.239
<v Speaker 3>I think the question is, like when we build these technologies,

0:49:44.360 --> 0:49:45.719
<v Speaker 3>like what battles do you want to fight?

0:49:45.760 --> 0:49:47.440
<v Speaker 4>And where do we want to push the world forward?

0:49:47.640 --> 0:49:47.839
<v Speaker 2>Right?

0:49:47.880 --> 0:49:50.719
<v Speaker 3>And like me, I want the world to be more imaginative,

0:49:51.000 --> 0:49:53.719
<v Speaker 3>like and I want to push the boundaries of like

0:49:53.840 --> 0:49:56.960
<v Speaker 3>aesthetics in creation. I think that's really interesting and it

0:49:57.000 --> 0:49:59.040
<v Speaker 3>is really worthwhile. But I can be a little picky.

0:49:59.080 --> 0:50:02.200
<v Speaker 3>I'm not as interested in doing that or violence sexuality. Right,

0:50:02.280 --> 0:50:03.840
<v Speaker 3>there is an argument we have to push the batteries

0:50:03.840 --> 0:50:06.520
<v Speaker 3>of sexuality. Let's make the world way more sexual. Someone

0:50:06.520 --> 0:50:08.520
<v Speaker 3>else can do that. I just don't feel.

0:50:08.280 --> 0:50:09.600
<v Speaker 4>Spiritually compelled for that.

0:50:09.800 --> 0:50:11.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, But I think that, like there's this broader thing,

0:50:11.880 --> 0:50:14.520
<v Speaker 3>which is like letting people reflect. The average person comes

0:50:14.600 --> 0:50:16.680
<v Speaker 3>in here and they say something like Maltese dog in

0:50:16.760 --> 0:50:19.239
<v Speaker 3>heaven and I reach out. I'm like, hey, why'd you

0:50:19.280 --> 0:50:20.959
<v Speaker 3>do that? That's interesting and they go because my dog

0:50:21.080 --> 0:50:23.280
<v Speaker 3>just died. And I'm like, oh shit, are you okay?

0:50:23.320 --> 0:50:25.080
<v Speaker 3>And they're like yeah, this is making me feel better.

0:50:25.320 --> 0:50:27.239
<v Speaker 3>Where there was like another woman and she goes like

0:50:27.280 --> 0:50:28.840
<v Speaker 3>she was putting in these weird lyrics and I'm like,

0:50:28.840 --> 0:50:30.319
<v Speaker 3>what are you doing? Like these don't show up on

0:50:30.400 --> 0:50:32.520
<v Speaker 3>Google and she goes, When I was very young, my

0:50:32.560 --> 0:50:34.200
<v Speaker 3>older brother died and all he left me was this,

0:50:34.360 --> 0:50:35.480
<v Speaker 3>like this cassette tape.

0:50:35.320 --> 0:50:35.960
<v Speaker 4>Of these thongs.

0:50:36.200 --> 0:50:38.120
<v Speaker 3>And I'm literally just putting lyrics in and I'm feeling

0:50:38.160 --> 0:50:39.719
<v Speaker 3>closest person never got to be part of my life.

0:50:39.760 --> 0:50:40.719
<v Speaker 4>Wow, it's not always death.

0:50:40.920 --> 0:50:42.760
<v Speaker 3>There was one person who was like Temple of Donuts,

0:50:42.920 --> 0:50:45.000
<v Speaker 3>Like why are you doing Temple of Donuts? And like, well,

0:50:45.000 --> 0:50:48.040
<v Speaker 3>I'm an atheist, but I don't really understand worship or religion,

0:50:48.080 --> 0:50:50.400
<v Speaker 3>but I do understand like donuts and sweets. It's like

0:50:50.400 --> 0:50:51.920
<v Speaker 3>combining all the things I don't understand one of the

0:50:51.920 --> 0:50:54.200
<v Speaker 3>things I do understand, and I'm like trying to understand,

0:50:54.200 --> 0:50:55.080
<v Speaker 3>like what is worship?

0:50:55.360 --> 0:50:58.200
<v Speaker 4>The Hong Kong girl. So she said, I'm a woman.

0:50:58.239 --> 0:51:00.200
<v Speaker 3>I'm in Hong Kong, and the one thing your parents talk,

0:51:00.239 --> 0:51:01.719
<v Speaker 3>I never want you to be as an artist. And

0:51:01.760 --> 0:51:04.239
<v Speaker 3>so I'm a banker and I'm a good banker. But

0:51:04.400 --> 0:51:06.000
<v Speaker 3>now as I'm starting to get to use Mid Journey,

0:51:06.000 --> 0:51:08.360
<v Speaker 3>I'm starting to get to feel like I'm getting to

0:51:08.400 --> 0:51:10.040
<v Speaker 3>be the person I never got to be, and I'm

0:51:10.040 --> 0:51:10.920
<v Speaker 3>having to think about that.

0:51:11.600 --> 0:51:13.320
<v Speaker 4>And so like these are like the good stories.

0:51:13.360 --> 0:51:14.680
<v Speaker 2>They're like, no, those are great stories.

0:51:14.719 --> 0:51:15.360
<v Speaker 4>Somebody else is.

0:51:15.360 --> 0:51:18.200
<v Speaker 5>Just like huge chits covered in blood and it's like

0:51:18.440 --> 0:51:21.040
<v Speaker 5>I don't care about that person. That's not a real

0:51:21.200 --> 0:51:23.759
<v Speaker 5>human story, and like maybe there's something going on there,

0:51:23.800 --> 0:51:26.160
<v Speaker 5>but it's not interesting. Like there's so many interesting things

0:51:26.160 --> 0:51:28.040
<v Speaker 5>going on, and I want to create a space for that,

0:51:28.680 --> 0:51:31.399
<v Speaker 5>and I'm doing that. There's a path that we see

0:51:31.440 --> 0:51:33.239
<v Speaker 5>over and over again with people in Mid Journey almost

0:51:33.239 --> 0:51:35.240
<v Speaker 5>call like the heroes in Mid Journey. And what happens

0:51:35.280 --> 0:51:37.040
<v Speaker 5>is they come in and they realize they can make

0:51:37.040 --> 0:51:40.279
<v Speaker 5>pictures of something they like. For me, with cats and cyberpunk, right,

0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:41.839
<v Speaker 5>I'm like, okay, I make sappunk cats.

0:51:41.880 --> 0:51:43.799
<v Speaker 4>I'm like, okay, I'll make tarpunk shitte.

0:51:43.520 --> 0:51:46.839
<v Speaker 3>Pre Charpuk Ninjas and make Starapunks and I'm making chappok everything.

0:51:46.840 --> 0:51:48.200
<v Speaker 3>And then all of a sudden, like you combine all

0:51:48.239 --> 0:51:50.040
<v Speaker 3>the things you like and then you just burn out

0:51:50.160 --> 0:51:51.880
<v Speaker 3>and you're like, oh my god, I never liked sypunk.

0:51:51.920 --> 0:51:54.120
<v Speaker 4>I never want to see starpunk again. Starpunk isn't me.

0:51:54.640 --> 0:51:56.920
<v Speaker 3>And then and then it's like month one, Month one,

0:51:57.000 --> 0:51:59.040
<v Speaker 3>and then month two is You're like, but then who

0:51:59.080 --> 0:52:01.560
<v Speaker 3>am I? And then you start looking at everybody else's pictures.

0:52:01.560 --> 0:52:04.480
<v Speaker 3>You're like art deco, am I art deco? Or like

0:52:04.680 --> 0:52:07.160
<v Speaker 3>vapor ways, am I vapor waves? And then you start

0:52:07.200 --> 0:52:08.880
<v Speaker 3>like looking at everything and you're and you're kind of

0:52:08.880 --> 0:52:10.319
<v Speaker 3>saying like you know, and you're trying to do this

0:52:10.360 --> 0:52:11.759
<v Speaker 3>path of like who am I?

0:52:11.800 --> 0:52:13.839
<v Speaker 4>What is my real aesthetic? And then you learn a lot.

0:52:13.880 --> 0:52:16.000
<v Speaker 3>People learn like all this hard history and all these movements,

0:52:16.040 --> 0:52:18.239
<v Speaker 3>and they start putting things together into like the sense

0:52:18.280 --> 0:52:20.600
<v Speaker 3>of who they are. And then like month three is

0:52:20.600 --> 0:52:22.680
<v Speaker 3>like you have this like aesthetic universe and you're starting

0:52:22.719 --> 0:52:25.160
<v Speaker 3>to like apply it to everything. You're like, it's like,

0:52:25.200 --> 0:52:26.359
<v Speaker 3>you know, it's a little bit of this, a little

0:52:26.400 --> 0:52:27.680
<v Speaker 3>bit of that. It's all these things together and you're

0:52:27.719 --> 0:52:30.120
<v Speaker 3>like creating all this stuff, and it's like you're like

0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:32.719
<v Speaker 3>having to like your people are paying.

0:52:32.480 --> 0:52:33.239
<v Speaker 4>Off pathetic debts.

0:52:33.239 --> 0:52:35.239
<v Speaker 3>They're like exploring the nature of their identities and then

0:52:35.239 --> 0:52:37.439
<v Speaker 3>they're like expressing it. They're like it's like they're working

0:52:37.480 --> 0:52:40.280
<v Speaker 3>on all this shit, and like it's really really healthy

0:52:40.480 --> 0:52:44.840
<v Speaker 3>and it's literally just regular people and almost nobody shares anything.

0:52:44.840 --> 0:52:47.600
<v Speaker 3>It's crazy, like almost no pictures ever shared and almost

0:52:47.600 --> 0:52:50.800
<v Speaker 3>no pictures ever sold, right, And it's just like it's

0:52:50.840 --> 0:52:54.400
<v Speaker 3>mostly just regular people having this like really healthy experience.

0:52:54.480 --> 0:52:57.400
<v Speaker 2>So to be clear, basically you see this as a

0:52:57.440 --> 0:52:58.960
<v Speaker 2>form of therapy. Is that correct?

0:52:59.040 --> 0:53:01.040
<v Speaker 4>At least thirty percent of all the use is literally

0:53:01.160 --> 0:53:02.120
<v Speaker 4>art therapy.

0:53:02.239 --> 0:53:05.759
<v Speaker 2>Right, Wow, mental health through ai I was.

0:53:05.840 --> 0:53:09.000
<v Speaker 3>Entirely unexpected, but it's really important. It's clearly this tool

0:53:09.040 --> 0:53:10.719
<v Speaker 3>for reflection. And then people are starting to meet each

0:53:10.719 --> 0:53:12.920
<v Speaker 3>other like and they're starting to like form these groups

0:53:13.080 --> 0:53:15.400
<v Speaker 3>and they're like pushing these aesthetic boundaries and discovering new

0:53:15.440 --> 0:53:18.440
<v Speaker 3>things and like that's really beautiful and it's obviously part

0:53:18.480 --> 0:53:21.200
<v Speaker 3>of an honest and positive future, right, and like that's

0:53:21.200 --> 0:53:22.040
<v Speaker 3>what I care about.

0:53:22.239 --> 0:53:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Okay, really quickly, and then we got to wrap up,

0:53:23.880 --> 0:53:25.840
<v Speaker 2>But do you think that like there's a future state

0:53:26.280 --> 0:53:28.600
<v Speaker 2>where it's like mid Journey is its own Instagram.

0:53:28.719 --> 0:53:31.120
<v Speaker 3>There's gonna be like that, but it's crazier. I think

0:53:31.160 --> 0:53:34.359
<v Speaker 3>the future is more of like, well, it's more like

0:53:34.440 --> 0:53:37.720
<v Speaker 3>liquid imagination swirling around the room and like forming mountains

0:53:37.719 --> 0:53:40.399
<v Speaker 3>and little trees and animals and little ruins. You're trying

0:53:40.440 --> 0:53:42.240
<v Speaker 3>to figure out how to get people's surfboards or boats

0:53:42.360 --> 0:53:46.520
<v Speaker 3>like surf like oceans of liquid imagination, like discover entirely

0:53:46.560 --> 0:53:49.399
<v Speaker 3>new lands. But it's like very different thing, and it's

0:53:49.440 --> 0:53:51.799
<v Speaker 3>like it forms like a new substance that you kind

0:53:51.840 --> 0:53:55.759
<v Speaker 3>of can create the world with and manifest through and

0:53:55.880 --> 0:53:58.160
<v Speaker 3>like reflect through, and like that's what it's about.

0:53:58.200 --> 0:53:59.480
<v Speaker 4>It's like creating a new substance.

0:53:59.520 --> 0:54:02.760
<v Speaker 3>It's really not about like making an Instagram or making

0:54:02.800 --> 0:54:05.960
<v Speaker 3>poor or huge tips. It's obvious that all that stuff

0:54:06.000 --> 0:54:08.239
<v Speaker 3>will happen, but that it doesn't matter, Like it's not

0:54:08.360 --> 0:54:11.000
<v Speaker 3>the real thing. It's like there was a civilization before

0:54:11.040 --> 0:54:13.839
<v Speaker 3>engines and after engines, and now the fun thing is

0:54:13.920 --> 0:54:17.200
<v Speaker 3>moving to a civilization that has these engines of imagination,

0:54:17.800 --> 0:54:19.000
<v Speaker 3>and how does that transform things?

0:54:19.000 --> 0:54:19.680
<v Speaker 4>Like how did engines stright?

0:54:19.640 --> 0:54:21.080
<v Speaker 3>I think we have highways, we have boats, we have

0:54:21.160 --> 0:54:23.960
<v Speaker 3>like huge international trade, Like there's.

0:54:23.800 --> 0:54:24.880
<v Speaker 2>Like a lot of stuff.

0:54:24.960 --> 0:54:28.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's all stark. A lot of people in technology

0:54:28.080 --> 0:54:29.960
<v Speaker 3>feel like we have no pasts. A lot of regular

0:54:30.000 --> 0:54:32.239
<v Speaker 3>people literally feel like we have no future, right, But

0:54:32.320 --> 0:54:34.279
<v Speaker 3>like I feel like like we're really mid journey in this,

0:54:34.440 --> 0:54:36.640
<v Speaker 3>Like we have this rich and beautiful past behind us

0:54:36.719 --> 0:54:39.520
<v Speaker 3>and this like wondrous and unimaginable future ahead of us, right,

0:54:39.560 --> 0:54:42.160
<v Speaker 3>And like the whole goal of making anything is to

0:54:42.200 --> 0:54:44.080
<v Speaker 3>figure out what we can be and what that can

0:54:44.120 --> 0:54:47.399
<v Speaker 3>be in like a positive and explorative and wonderful, humane way.

0:54:47.800 --> 0:54:49.640
<v Speaker 4>And like I don't know. That's what I'm trying to

0:54:49.640 --> 0:54:51.120
<v Speaker 4>do and hopefully it shows up a little bit in

0:54:51.160 --> 0:54:51.560
<v Speaker 4>the stuff.

0:54:52.040 --> 0:54:56.000
<v Speaker 2>But like I agree, I'm so on board with that sentiment.

0:54:56.080 --> 0:54:58.640
<v Speaker 2>Like I one hundred percent agree, Like we don't know

0:54:58.760 --> 0:55:00.200
<v Speaker 2>yet what all of this is going to be be.

0:55:00.360 --> 0:55:01.960
<v Speaker 2>It's like we have to figure that out. And that's

0:55:01.960 --> 0:55:03.560
<v Speaker 2>why like people are like we're done, and it's like, no,

0:55:03.640 --> 0:55:07.160
<v Speaker 2>we just really got started, like with technology, I think,

0:55:07.160 --> 0:55:09.640
<v Speaker 2>and what it can do. I agree, Like you, you

0:55:09.680 --> 0:55:12.239
<v Speaker 2>are echoing a sentiment that I have definitely spoken on

0:55:12.239 --> 0:55:15.239
<v Speaker 2>on more than one occasion. David, this is first off,

0:55:15.280 --> 0:55:19.120
<v Speaker 2>super fucking interesting shit that you're building. Extremely fascinating conversation.

0:55:19.520 --> 0:55:21.040
<v Speaker 2>We should do like a check in like a year

0:55:21.080 --> 0:55:22.640
<v Speaker 2>from now or something to see all of the new

0:55:22.640 --> 0:55:24.200
<v Speaker 2>mid journey things that have been created.

0:55:24.239 --> 0:55:26.720
<v Speaker 4>So it's gonna get really scary. Even the next six months,

0:55:26.760 --> 0:55:28.360
<v Speaker 4>six months is going to be really intense.

0:55:28.480 --> 0:55:30.880
<v Speaker 3>Like six months is the farthest I can see twelve

0:55:30.920 --> 0:55:32.600
<v Speaker 3>months actually, I actually don't.

0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:34.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay, we'll do a six month check in. We'll see

0:55:34.360 --> 0:55:37.160
<v Speaker 2>if bid journey is that it's like three quarter journey.

0:55:38.640 --> 0:55:39.160
<v Speaker 4>It's gonna be.

0:55:39.239 --> 0:55:39.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's gonna be.

0:55:39.920 --> 0:55:41.480
<v Speaker 4>It's it's gonna be moving really fast.

0:55:41.520 --> 0:55:43.440
<v Speaker 3>It's kinda seemed frightening to a lot of people, but

0:55:43.480 --> 0:55:47.800
<v Speaker 3>it's like it's it's like an honest shot at the future.

0:55:47.880 --> 0:55:48.080
<v Speaker 4>You know.

0:55:48.440 --> 0:55:56.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm ready, David, Thank you so much. Well, that is

0:55:56.680 --> 0:55:59.040
<v Speaker 2>our show for this week. We'll be back next week

0:55:59.280 --> 0:56:03.040
<v Speaker 2>with more what Future, And as always, I wish you

0:56:03.080 --> 0:56:05.120
<v Speaker 2>and your family the very best.