1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Happy Saturday. Coming up soon on the show, 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: we have an episode that makes a couple of references 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: to Harvard Indian College. Back on June, we put on 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: an episode that is also connected to that topic. It's 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: an interview with archaeologists from the Puberty Museum of Archaeology 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: and Ethnology at Harvard and the museum exhibit that's discussed 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: in this interview, which is called Digging Veritas, that is 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: still available online at the museum's website. And we have 9 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: a couple of pronunciation notes on this one. Listeners may 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: notice that this episode uses the pronunciation wampanoag, but in 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: more recent episodes we've said wampanog. Both of those pronunciations 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 1: are in use by people who refer to themselves by 13 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: one or the other. And as for the other one, 14 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: listeners may also notice that Holly says Peabody in this episode, 15 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: while the interviewees say pbody. George Pabody, who's the museum's namesake, 16 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: pronounced it pabody, although there are are a lot of 17 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: institutions named for him that use that pronunciation, and there's 18 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: that don't. Most Massachusetts area people talk about things like 19 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: the Peabody Museum at Harvard or the pbody Essex Museum. 20 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: But for example, I have never heard anyone from Peabody 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: College at Vanderbilt say it that way. And I'm indoctrinated 22 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: by Mr Peabody from the cartoons. Yes, most people would 23 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: look at that spelling and think that it's Peabody. Yeah, 24 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: So enjoy this episode and all of these inconsistencies in pronunciation. 25 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 26 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome 27 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Holly fro and I'm Tracy V. Wilson, 28 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: and uh. We certainly reference archaeology all the time on 29 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: the show, and we talk about artifacts that have been 30 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: unearthed and sometimes discoveries that help explain our understandings of 31 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: other times and cultures, but we don't often get to 32 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: actually speak with the archaeologists involved. Just always. You know, 33 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: we love hearing. We have fans that are archaeologists that 34 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: write to us sometimes, but it's cool to actually get 35 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: to sit down and have a conversation with archaeologists. And 36 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: I was recently lucky enough to do just that. I 37 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: had to talk with two fabulous women who are archaeologists 38 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: at Harvard University and they're working on this really interesting 39 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: ongoing project with Harvard's Peabody Museum of Ethnology and Archaeology. 40 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: So this is another one of our recent collection of episodes. 41 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: You can tell it summertime because Holly and I have 42 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: each had various time off. So this is another one 43 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: of those episodes that Holly, you took. You took the 44 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: reins on this one while I was away, and so 45 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: I am getting to experience it for the first time 46 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: along with all of our listeners. I love it when 47 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: it works out that way. It is it's kind of 48 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: fun to see. I know for me, when you do 49 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: a project on your own, it's fun to kind of 50 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: see how that plays out, and it's kind of like 51 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: getting a little treat in addition to getting time off. 52 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: So tell us about who you talk to you. So 53 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: in this first segment, I will introduce you to these 54 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: fabulous women who are Patricia Capone and Diana Lauren, and 55 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: they're going to share their stories on how they ended 56 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: up at Harvard and how they ended up working on 57 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 1: this dig that's actually exploring Harvard's colonial past. We're also 58 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: going to talk about Harvard's Indian College and how that 59 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: was established. Uh, and as well, we're going to discuss 60 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: colonialism in the context of the school. Alrighty, So today 61 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: I have a super fun treat. We are going to 62 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: be talking to two curators from the Peabody Museum of 63 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: Archaeology and Ethnology at Harvard University. And so for our 64 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: listeners who love archaeology stories and or Native American history, 65 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: this one is really going to be a delight, like 66 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: a piece of delicious dessert cake, except in knowledge form um. 67 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: So I have Patricia A Campone who goes by Trish 68 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: and she's the director of Repatriation and Research Services, and 69 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: Diana Lauren, who is Director of Academic Partnerships, UH. And 70 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: they both work as curators of an exhibit there at 71 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: the Peabody Museum UH called Digging Veritas. And most of 72 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: our listeners probably know, Harvard University is the oldest higher 73 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,799 Speaker 1: education institution in the US. It was founded in sixteen 74 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: thirty six, so in many ways it's kind of like 75 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: a living time capsule of America's development. And these two 76 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: women have been part of a really fascinating project that 77 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: combines archaeological education with historical education and Harvard's own past. So, ladies, 78 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here, 79 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: thank you for having a absolutely we're to be here. Yeay. 80 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: So now each well, each of you, UM and whoever 81 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: wishes to go first, may do so. Tell us a 82 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: little bit about yourself and kind of what you do 83 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: as a curator, and if you want to include it, 84 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: how you landed there, if it's true ish UM and 85 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: I began excavating in Harvard Yard as a graduate student 86 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:14,679 Speaker 1: UM here at the university, and I uh was under 87 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: the wing of the UM graduate student who was working 88 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: on the project for his basist, John Stubbs. UM. I 89 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: grew up in the Boston area and was UM in 90 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: part interested in this particular story because of that, but 91 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 1: also because I'm interested in Colonial America and cultural dynamics 92 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: of um that period in general. All right, Diana, it's 93 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: your turn. Okay. Well, I came to Harvard in after 94 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: I finished my degree in archaeology at Sindy Binghamton. And 95 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: while I wasn't a archaeologist as an undergrad, it's something 96 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: I studied in graduate school and focused on Colonial America. 97 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: So it was after I had been here a while, 98 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: knowing that the university had previously done digs, including the 99 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: one Trish was involved with in Harvard Yard. I began 100 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: to get interested, and it was in this moment in 101 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: two thousand five wire Trish and I had the opportunity 102 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: to start the project and dig in the yard. I 103 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: learned about the material and intellectual history of the university. 104 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: And I have to ask this question. It may be weird. 105 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: I think when a lot of people think of archaeology, 106 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: they think of, you know, really ancient kind of excavation stuff. 107 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: What drew you instead to colonial history? Well, I grew 108 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: up in Philadelphia and UM not the age myself, but 109 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: I was around in UM nine by centennial celebrations, which 110 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: was huge in Philadelphia, and from that point on just 111 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: an interest in colonial history and the history of North 112 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: America emerged. Out of those interests. Yeah, and UM. For me, 113 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: I had been mainly working previously as a graduate student 114 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: in the south West US, especially in New Mexico, and 115 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: in colonial mission contexts there UM, which were in many 116 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: ways contrast to the kind of archaeology taking place in 117 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: New England, but also some um, really intriguing similarities. Uh. 118 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: Some differences included the missionization versus economic colonization, um, and uh, 119 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: a number of other things that I was interested in 120 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: in kind of exploring as as comparisons and contrasts. And 121 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: I would say, like Trish, I also worked in for 122 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: my dissertation in clonial contexts that weren't English, they were 123 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: Spanish and French. But then you know, coming here and 124 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: being here and learning about the work that's been done 125 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: at Harvard, the history of Harvard, you know, trying to 126 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: understand Cuanto pass through all these different colonies in different 127 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: well intersecting in the seventeenth and eighteenth century is just 128 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: truly fascinating. Well, uh, going off of that, will you 129 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: guys give us a little bit of background on Harvard's 130 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: Indian College because we're going to talk about it a lot. 131 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: And I know I was surprised to learn it really 132 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: didn't have all that many students. I think when you 133 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: say the word college, you think of a crowd of people, 134 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: and that is not the case. Correct. There were five 135 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: students known to have um been connected to the Indian College, 136 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: and actually um, four of them are known to have 137 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: resided there. Uh one of them was a little bit 138 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: later in the eighteenth century, but um, yeah, it's um 139 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: started as part of the Charter of sixteen fifty which 140 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: committed UM Harvard College UH in part to the education 141 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: of the English and Indian youth of this country and 142 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 1: knowledge and godliness on quoting from the sixteen fifty charter 143 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: there and that had been the result of a collaboration 144 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: from the English Society for the Propagation of the Gospel 145 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: in New England. They granted funds for Indian education at 146 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: Harvard UM, which came at a UH crucial time for 147 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: the college which was beginning to struggle financially, and UH 148 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: later resulted in the building of the brick Um Indian 149 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: College Building itself UM, which was the second educational structure 150 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: built as an educational structure at Harvard College. UM anything 151 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: else to add their Diana, Well, I let's say, UM. 152 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: I think that the Society for the Propagation of the 153 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,239 Speaker 1: Gospel in New England that they had kept the university 154 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: or the college afloat at that time, because you know, 155 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: the college has a aublished sixteen thirty six. Shortly after that, 156 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: they're going bankrupt and they need money to continue going. 157 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: And so since they're struggling financially, they looked to the 158 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: Society for funds, and the society says, that's fine, you 159 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: can keep going, but you need to dedicate the institution 160 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: not only to English students but also Native American students 161 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: to learn to come pure to ministers. Yeah, and this, this, 162 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 1: I mean, this was in line with what the the 163 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: previous focus of Harvard College was to train um young 164 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: men in Puritan ministry. UM. But expanding it to become 165 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: uh an overtly you know, proselytization uh mechanism was was 166 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: a new direction. And so I have to wonder what 167 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: since we kind of know at that point the goals 168 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: for the Indian College, I have to wonder what the 169 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 1: goals for the the young men who attended were. Were 170 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: they pretty much signed on or was this an option 171 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: that just seemed like, you know, they were either stuck 172 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: kind of into this idea or were they really enthusiastic 173 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: about being part of this project. I mean that kind 174 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: of information is somewhat lost in the archive. You know, 175 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: we talked about colonialism and colonialists contexts as these very 176 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: complex landscapes of colonialism happening, and different communities speaking to 177 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: recover or continued traditions or become something new. Whitney say, Trish. Yeah, 178 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: I guess I would say that the details of their 179 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: personal stories are not very well known at this point. 180 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: There's no sign clear whether the UM primary sources out 181 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: there yet to be discovered, will help inform on those 182 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: personal details. Um. Uh. The bits of personal detail that 183 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: we do know is that UM, the UM, at least 184 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: a couple of the individuals Caleb, Chisa Tamoc in particular, 185 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 1: UM were uh the sons of leaders. And so the 186 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: notion that UM, the leaders of the neighboring indigenous people 187 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: were uh coming to join this enterprise, you know, was 188 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: I think a weighty notion, and UM suggested that it 189 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: was in some way a positive perhaps honor. We're not 190 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: you know, we can't really necessarily project that, but UM, 191 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: and we don't know whether, uh what the individuals themselves felt. 192 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: But the fact that the sons of prominent individuals or 193 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 1: UM were the the ones the Indian College students, I 194 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: think it is a significant pattern. They would have been 195 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: studying for many years prior to coming to the college 196 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: and preparatory school. Just to enter, they would have had 197 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: UM to be fluent in a number of scholarly languages, 198 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: including Ancient Greek and Latin, Hebrew, so um. In addition 199 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: to you know, English not being a first language, this 200 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: was uh, you know, pretty major educational background that they 201 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: already arrived with. And so the Project UM that resulted 202 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: in the Digging Veritas exhibits. I really love this because 203 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: it actually started as a class that students could take 204 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: and it continues as a class. Well, can you tell 205 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: us a little bit about that class and kind of 206 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: how that piece of curriculum came to be and how 207 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: it continues. Sure. So in two thousand five, the museum 208 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: received a call from Massachusetts Hall, which is the place 209 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: of where the president resides on campus and it's the 210 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: oldest scanning structure at that time. In two thousand five, 211 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: they were going to be doing some construction around the 212 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: building and they had received guidance from the local Historic 213 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: Commission saying, you know, you should get some archaeologists to 214 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: check around the building before you do construction to make 215 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: sure you don't impact any cultural resources. And then that 216 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: same year in two thousand five, and I don't know, Trisha, 217 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: if you want to take over at this point, yeah. Sure. 218 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: It was UM simultaneous with the commemoration of theftieth anniversary 219 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: of the Harvard Indian College and UM, UH, you know, 220 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: having some understanding of previous excavations in Harvard Yard, we 221 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: we knew that the location of the Indian College, the 222 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: physical location of the Indian College was still not known 223 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: and UM, and so we got to talking with some 224 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: of the interested UM scholarly interests, UH, community stakeholders and 225 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: so forth. The Harvard University Native American Program played a 226 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: major role in the commemoration of the Indian College, and 227 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: and UM came to conceive of this potential public archaeology 228 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: project that UM would take the form of a Harvard 229 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: class as as had been UM. Harvard classes had previously 230 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: excavated in Harvard Yard in the nineteen eighties with John 231 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: Stubbs UM, but having this this one have the the 232 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: additional facet of a a focus on community archaeology and 233 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: UM neighboring Native American groups interests in the topic as 234 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: well as the on campus UM Native American community and 235 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: scholarly interests in this. UH. To this point, UM under 236 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: studied topic. So in two thousand and five it was 237 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: really this perfect moment for us to go forward and 238 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: get the support to dig in the yard and to 239 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: teach it as a class so that students could be 240 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: invested in investigating this history as well as contributing to 241 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: the history. Yeah, and the museum. The Piboty Museum was 242 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: also at at that time exploring ways UM to involve 243 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: students in hands on learning settings and UM learning through 244 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: material culture, museum processes and UM the types of research 245 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: that result in museum collections themselves. So for students to 246 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: have the opportunity to UM, you know, kind of start 247 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: to finish, engage in a research project and and UH 248 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: take part in the interpretation of the products of that 249 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: research UM and and then archiving them for posterity as 250 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: part of the museum collection. UH was embraced supported as 251 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: a good thing to experiment with. It's such a wonderful idea, 252 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: although it doesn't make me wonder how on earth do 253 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: you manage a dig site that is also part of 254 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: a busy and thriving campus. M It is the busiest 255 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: part of the campaign, it definitely is. So we have 256 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: so much support from the university and the museum to 257 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: do the work. We have the support of the yard 258 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: operations who managed a day to day flow of activities 259 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: in the yard, as well as the landscaping crew, archives, etcetera. 260 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: Just a lot of people coming to the other to 261 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: support the project so we can dig in this very 262 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: public space and do the work with the students there. 263 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: You know, having the project place in that public space 264 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: is an opportunity for us to talk about the public 265 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: about the history of the university, the importance of the 266 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: Indian College, and the story about Indian education at Harvard. 267 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: And that's not a story that most people know about. Yeah, 268 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: and and I'd also like to credit the student's openness 269 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: to UM engaging in communicating the relevance of UM not 270 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: only this particular topic of the Indian College in Harvard history, 271 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: but UM the importance of of archaeology and cultural resources 272 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: under our feet UM UM broadly conceived is is just amazing. 273 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: And their willingness to UM UH really think of it 274 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: as a form of civic engagement and UM and you know, 275 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,439 Speaker 1: be there with the public and and help guide the 276 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: public experience as their UH coming through the yard, you know, 277 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:02,719 Speaker 1: either UM either or as as as tourists or you know, 278 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: just walking on their way to UM A fellow students 279 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: on their way to class, or or other community members. 280 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: It's the students have really played such a pay and 281 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: uh an excellent role in the public archaeology aspect. I 282 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: just want to add to that by think they're so 283 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: enthusiastic with engaging about with the public, about the project 284 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: and the story that it just makes it a fantastic 285 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: project all around. So, now that we know how this 286 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: amazing class at Harvard is helping to unearth some of 287 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 1: the school's history and how it's creating this ongoing museum collection, Tracy, 288 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: do you want to pause for just a moment for 289 00:19:49,840 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: a word from one of our sponsors. Yeah, let's do that. So, 290 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: getting back to my chat with Trich and Diana, Uh, 291 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: the ladies are next going to talk about some pretty 292 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: significant finds that have been made by students participating in 293 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: this big at Harvard yard. And then we're gonna talk 294 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: a little bit about why there's so little information about 295 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: the building that housed the Indian College, because while it's 296 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: part of Harvard's history, there's a lot of gaps in 297 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: the knowledge there. Uh, And we're gonna talk a little 298 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: bit about everyone's favorite topic, which is food and some 299 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: of the more rebellious pursuits of the colleges students. So 300 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: then in two thousand nine. Uh, this project uncovered a 301 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: rather important trench. UM. Can you tell us sort of 302 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: about that trench and it's significance and and what you 303 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: found in it. So in condemn nine we had on 304 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: previous years, I should say, we were excavating in the 305 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: area in front of Matthews Hall at the College and 306 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:02,479 Speaker 1: looking for information on the Indian College. And in two 307 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: thousand and seven we had excavated a unit archaeological unit 308 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: where we came across some dark soils and seventeenth century 309 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: printing type. It was in two thousand nine that we 310 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: were able to expand on that area and we came 311 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: across this dark feature in the soil which represented the 312 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: eastern wall of the Indian College building. Yeah, we have 313 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: some images and that you had mentioned, Holly, the Digging 314 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: Veritas UM online exhibit and physical exhibit in the museum itself, 315 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: and we have some great images of what that feature 316 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: looks like as well as some UM detail UH, photos 317 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: of the artifacts that came from the trench and that 318 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: UM that situated it in time UM at the time 319 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: of the Indian College, the printing type UM, some of 320 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: the flipware ceramics that UM. Are you know solidly, uh, 321 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: seventeenth century type. So we were pretty excited when all 322 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: the all the aspects of this feature came together to 323 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: to suggest it relating to the architecture of the Indian 324 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: College and those two pieces of printing type. Um, if 325 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: I did my research, read my research correctly, those are 326 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: believed to be part of the first printing press in 327 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: the colonies. Is that correct? Yes, So this is the 328 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: little object that speaks volumes, as Trish would put it, Um, 329 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 1: small pieces of lead alloy printing type that were used 330 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: in immovable press, which was the first press in the 331 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: British colonies. It was here at Harvard. It was located 332 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: in the Ending College building, and it was used to 333 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: produce texts in both local Goncling language and English. Yeah, 334 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: the first books printed in America were printed on that 335 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: pres So that's hugely significant. I mean, that's like a 336 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: big fine even though as you said, it's a tiny thing, 337 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: but it's really huge. We agree. Um. One of the 338 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: really really cool aspects of this whole project to me 339 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: is that you collaborate with the Wampanoag and Nipmunk nations 340 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: and I think probably other um Native American nations. What 341 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: is their involvement in this and how did that partnership develop? 342 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: Sure this is true UM. At the time that UM 343 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: the anniversary of the Indian College was being commemorated, UM, 344 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: there were already strands of outreach and intellectual UH network 345 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: relating some of the questions UM of the Indian College too, 346 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: current scholarly work coming out of UM Native American groups 347 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: in New England UM, and so we UH largely followed 348 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: on those cues that were UM already UH in process 349 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: of of unfolding. UM. We also were enthusiastic to identify 350 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: some common research goals that UM might have some UH 351 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: potential student involvement UM in addition to the scholarly UM implications, 352 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: as well as some public interests. So UM for the museum, 353 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: it was UH, you know, the coming together of a 354 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 1: number of different factors and and interests and and people 355 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,719 Speaker 1: UM in a in a positive and UM. And I 356 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: think UH you know, growing out of UM intellectual trends 357 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: in different fields UM which the naive American tribes were 358 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: on their own taking part in UH. And so I 359 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: think our contacts with for example, direct descendants of um 360 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: Nipmuck tribal members who UM UH descended from James the 361 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: printer UM, the individual one of the individuals who UM 362 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: is known to have UH printed on the printing press 363 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: UM and UH then UH tribal members from the Wanpanoi tribes, 364 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: particularly Um gay head on a Quino. We were fortunate 365 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: to work with a Harvard student from that community, that 366 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: Wanpanoi community who took the Archaeology of Harvard Yard class 367 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: with us UM. And that was right around the same 368 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: time as the three hundred and fifties UM anniversary of 369 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: h what would have been there graduations from the Indian College. 370 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: So UM just I think a lot of UH common 371 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: interests coming together at the same time and continuing to 372 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: develop and and I think not the least of which 373 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: is the UM uh Wanpanoa language reclamation project work being 374 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: done utilizing some of the books that were printed at 375 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: the Indian College, in particular the Indian Bible UM. A 376 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: lot of that work has been recognized as key in 377 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: UM in revitalizing the want Wapanoa language, which has gone 378 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: unspoken for many years and is being revitalized through the 379 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: efforts of UM tribal members UH today and has been 380 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: going on for for some time. But all of these 381 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: different threads, I think UM UH come together and have 382 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: relevance for each other and and hopefully can continue to 383 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: grow the development then of knowledge on this topic. Can 384 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: I add trish, We operationalize engagement the public archaeology of 385 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: the project UM through an open well an open house 386 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: in the spring semester. So in the fall semester when 387 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: we start excavations, we have an opening day where we 388 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: invite different members of the community, local community UM to 389 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: come and talk about the project and help the students 390 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: situate their experience within this larger history. And then in 391 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: the spring we have an open house where students, we 392 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: and the students invite members of the community here on campus, 393 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: in the local travel community to come and view what 394 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: we've located in the excavations and then have a conversation 395 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: about what we've found to date and where the project 396 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: is going next. So if we're really fortunate to be 397 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: able to have a dialogue with different stakeholders about the 398 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: project itself, m hm. And one out the growth. Yeah, 399 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: And one facet that I'd just add more overtly than 400 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: I did previously was the scholarly interest among the UM 401 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 1: Harvard University Native American campus community UM and their interest 402 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: in Native education, the history of Native education, uh, you know, 403 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 1: some of the positive as well as negative aspects of that, 404 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: some critique of Native education, and then also interest in 405 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: literacy UM and how that's an important aspect of uh 406 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: colonial the colonial enterprise. So now I'm going to shift 407 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: gears on you a little bit and talk a little 408 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: bit more about architecture, because my understanding is that you 409 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: did not really have any UM contemporary images that were 410 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: made when the the Indie in College was actually standing, 411 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: and that there was one representation that was put together 412 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:09,719 Speaker 1: based on archival documents. But has this UM trench and 413 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: sort of this excavation led to any new insights about 414 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: the actual building itself. Absolutely, you know, we have descriptions 415 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: in the archival record which say we proposed to and 416 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: I think i'm quoting here, UM build a small pile 417 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: of brick for the Indians, and the actual dimensions that 418 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: it was supposed to be. There was a two story 419 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: building with room for twenty students that was supposed to 420 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: be about but the details of that are not in 421 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: the archives, and there are no drawings from the seventeenth 422 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: century that indicates what the building looked like so in 423 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: the archaeological excavation we're able to see yes, it was 424 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: a brick building, and the kinds of bricks that were used. 425 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: There's some specially made bricks. It came out of the 426 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:06,239 Speaker 1: excavation which showed us how um important this structure was 427 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: on on that small campus at the time. So Harvard 428 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: in seventeenth century is just four buildings two UM, three 429 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: of which are our wood frame and then the first 430 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,239 Speaker 1: brick building is the Indian College building. Mm hmm. And 431 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: I think the the um stoutness of the foundation and 432 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: the the this this season, in particular the extent of 433 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: clay underpinnings UM show it to be kind of a 434 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: contrast in degree of permanency to the previous building. The 435 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: sixty Old College UM didn't really leave a foundation trace 436 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: the UM. The cellar hole, a small cellar hole of 437 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,479 Speaker 1: the Old College UM has been excavated, but in terms 438 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: of building footings, uh, there there certainly aren't any that 439 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: have been discovered that are to the extent of the 440 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: trench that we found relating to the Indian College and 441 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: the UM. The kind of lack of of good foundation 442 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: for the Old College may have contributed John Stubbs has 443 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: suggested may have contributed to UM it's quick track to disrepair. UM. 444 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: And so the the investment in underpinnings for the Indian 445 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: College are are a contrast. So in terms of architecture, UM, 446 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: the brick UH structure is confirmed as well as I 447 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: think the investment in its um permanence, which is kind 448 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: of a surprise because it was taken down not too 449 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: long UM after and UM we talk a little bit 450 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: about that in the in the exhibits, right, I think 451 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: we're really both of us have worked on colonial sites 452 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: and both of us were just so impressed with the 453 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: level of effort that was put into constructing this building 454 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: to be completed by sixtifty five. You know, Harvard landscape 455 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: in the seventeenth century kind of a marshy area to 456 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: construct building, and the efforts put forward with the clay 457 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: and the size of the trench to stabilize the structure 458 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: so that would be longstanding, as Tri said, is so 459 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: significant and really adds to our understanding of the investment 460 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: that was being made with the construction of this building. 461 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: So shifting a little bit now that you have brought 462 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: you know, you've mentioned the colonial era again, UM, which 463 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: we've been talking about, I know, the whole time, but 464 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: I know that in the online exhibit you talk a 465 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: little bit about kind of social hierarchy and class structure 466 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: and how that played out at the school. Has what 467 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: elements of this archaeology project have kind of lent to 468 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: your understanding of how all of that worked. I think 469 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: there's a couple of great examples that come out, both 470 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: in the ceramic material that's been recovered and also the 471 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: fawnel material that's been recovered. Whitdn't you say, Trish, Yeah, 472 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: it so with the ceramic material, you know, in the 473 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: seventeenth century, as we imagine um what daily life was like, 474 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: we know that the students led are really structured lives, 475 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: both the English students and the Native American students. You know, 476 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: their days were planned out from them from about five 477 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: am to eleven pm. And when you think about their 478 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: life and their world, you know, what we find in 479 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: the archaeological record is their trash, right, so the broken pottery, 480 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: the animal bones that was part of their daily life 481 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: and how they ate at the table and their diets 482 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: and the ceramics show from the seventeenth century show you 483 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: know fairly modest beginning, right, and so nothing really fancy. 484 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: And when you look at the funnel material, the animal 485 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,720 Speaker 1: bones that are left over from meals, you see something 486 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: similar as well, that it's just a very modest beginning. 487 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: There's indications that there was a great deal of status 488 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 1: differentiation at the table, you know, those seated above the 489 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: salt and those who are not. And so we have 490 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: an indication more about those students that were seated below 491 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: the salt, you know, with their plain ceramics where they 492 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: carve their initials into the bottom of their red ware tankard, 493 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: and just the small few things they had with them 494 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: as students in the college UM. One of the I 495 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 1: think the surprises is some of the local at least 496 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: that from the point of view of UM students, is 497 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: some of the local products that UM are evident in 498 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: the archaeological record, particularly real eating, to dining, the abundance 499 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: of oyster shells, which also would have been used in UM, 500 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: the manufacture of mortar for the brick building. But UM 501 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: the it seems pretty clear that oysters were also UM 502 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: used as a food source, and a number of other 503 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: local you know, as Diana mentioned UM that it was 504 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: a pretty modest beginning the UM, the emphasis on UM 505 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,919 Speaker 1: some of those local products high like that, I think 506 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:39,760 Speaker 1: for the students in in contrast to our dining situation today. 507 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: You know, we talked about with the students the yummy 508 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: bivalves diet. They're eating yummy bivalves, but at that time 509 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: it's not considered a fancy diet. Rather they're eating this 510 00:35:55,120 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: local grub on plain dishes. UM. One other thing I 511 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about, and I know this is also 512 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: part of the exhibit, is sort of the the rules 513 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: and the structure of Harvard in the sixteen fifties and 514 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: sixteen sixties, which you know, we're based in religion, and 515 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: they sound very strict and there's no smoking, and they 516 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 1: were clothing guidelines. But the archaeological record gives us some 517 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: evidence that those guidelines were maybe not always followed. UM. 518 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: Will you elaborate on that? Sure, no big surprise there 519 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: that students are UM just as invested in their extracurricular 520 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: pursuits and they are today with UM. Just a lot 521 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: of evidence of pipe smoking, UM using tobacco as well 522 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: as drinking through the evidence of wine bottles and other 523 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: liquor bottles. You know, the laws of the college are 524 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: based on the laws of the Bay Colony, which also 525 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: advocate a modest lifestyle without any excess and um, you know, 526 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: smoking and drinking are considered excess, and so students are 527 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: definitely imbibing and enjoying themselves in ways that went against 528 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: the laws of both the university or the college at 529 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 1: the time and the Bay Colony. H do you want 530 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: to mention some of the health evidence of health and 531 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: stress manage. Oh, my gosh, you know, this is one 532 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: of my favorites. Trish knows, this is one of my 533 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: favorite topics. Is the level of bodily care and comfort 534 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,320 Speaker 1: in the seventeenth centuries. Another thing we talked is about 535 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,879 Speaker 1: your day to day life in the seventeenth century. How 536 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: you consider bodily health today is not how you considered 537 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: bodily health in the seventeenth century. You know, we find 538 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: and what we find in the archaeological record is, you know, 539 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: some evidence of how they're the students were trying to 540 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: care for themselves with tiny bone combs with really close 541 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: cheap that we're used to pick the life out of hair, 542 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: so that life was a concern at the university. And 543 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: then also the medicine bottles that we recover. The students 544 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: were compounding medicines to alleviate illnesses as part of their 545 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: daily life, and some of the early accounts are recipes 546 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,280 Speaker 1: of the different medicines that could be used to alleviate 547 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: dysentery and diarrhea and all the things that make you uncomfortable. 548 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 1: Even there was an excavation in the eighties where they 549 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: came up with some botanical remains, and those botanical remains 550 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: also were evidence of the medicinals that are used or 551 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: at the time considered simples um to alleviate bodily concerned 552 00:38:54,400 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: have delicately and carefully you put that, but you know, 553 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 1: if you think about it, these students that you know, 554 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: they're not comfortable. I mean, as we think about comfort, 555 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: bodily comfort now, they have teeth issues, they have life, 556 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: they have um problems with digestion. You know, all of 557 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: that is part of their daily life. And how they 558 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: try to alleviate that through the use of material culture 559 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: is something that also resides as part of the story 560 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: as well that we recover from their archaeological records. So 561 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: now that we are jumping back in um to our 562 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: last segment, our wonderful guests are going to share with 563 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: us some of their favorite finds from the Harvard excavation, 564 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: and you will get a very real sense here of 565 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: how much they love the work they do and how 566 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: exciting it is for them to be part of this 567 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: really unique student oriented archaeology projects. So for each of you, 568 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: I would love to hear what the mos exciting or 569 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: favorite find in the archaeological work there at Harvard is 570 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 1: since mentioned. I'm kidding. I have one overall, and one 571 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: from this season. I don't know if a trish go ahead. 572 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: So in two thousand nine, when we're excavating at that 573 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: area where we believe it to be the trench to 574 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 1: students looked up from the excavations and said, we think 575 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: we found something and they held it up and it 576 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 1: was a piece of the printing type and I just 577 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: burst into tears. I mean it was such a moment. 578 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,839 Speaker 1: This this season, we had students excavating in this level 579 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: that was seventeen and eighteenth century material and he said, oh, 580 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: you know, I think we found something interesting. And he 581 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: held up this pair of cuffling sleeve buttons and I said, 582 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,320 Speaker 1: there is no way you found that on this site. 583 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,280 Speaker 1: They were so nice and so beautiful and so well preserved, 584 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: and like, yeah, we totally did. I was like, oh, 585 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: do you bring them from somewhere? But no, sure enough 586 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 1: they came out of the excavation, And that kind of 587 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: excitement never goes away even after years of doing this. 588 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that UM. One of the 589 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: artifact types that is particularly effective time machine and kind 590 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: of context awareness raisor for students is UM when they 591 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:33,359 Speaker 1: start finding the colonial clay tobacco pipes and uh, there 592 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: they find them with with some frequency, so UM, it's 593 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: it's uh, it's it's enough to kind of it's a 594 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: real eye opener that we're you know, we're dealing with 595 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: a different a different same place, but a very different time. UM. 596 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 1: In terms of my own excavation Harvard Yard, finding in 597 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: an entire fish skeleton in the seller of the old 598 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:05,280 Speaker 1: college building. Uh, seventeenth century fish skeleton was pretty exciting too. 599 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: So what would either of you say? You can need 600 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,320 Speaker 1: to give your own answer, Uh, is the most important 601 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: thing that you would like people to know about this 602 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: ongoing archaeology project at Harvard? Well, I think the broad 603 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 1: message that UM cultural resources archaeology, even of recent historic 604 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: periods is all around us, and to raise awareness for 605 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 1: the preservation and support for those resources is um is 606 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: a biggie UH. And then in addition to that, I 607 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:48,280 Speaker 1: think the more specific message of our shared colonial past 608 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:54,879 Speaker 1: in New England. UM that interweaves UH a place like 609 00:42:55,120 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 1: Harvard College with UM Native American families and community in 610 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: the region. Diana. Yeah, so I would say, you know, 611 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:11,239 Speaker 1: the story of the seventeenth century Harvard again speaks to 612 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 1: that shared path. But it's also such an important message 613 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: for students in the future that they understand the university 614 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: history and that they have a part in creating the 615 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: narrative for the present. And that narrative includes telling the 616 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: story of the Indian College and the importance of Indian 617 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 1: education at early Harvard. And that's a story that's been forgotten. 618 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 1: The Indian College was dismantled, the bricks were used for 619 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: another building. If you look at the landscape today, that 620 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,680 Speaker 1: story is absent. So having students being able to tell 621 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 1: that story, it's so important to the continuation of the project. 622 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,200 Speaker 1: So can you share any plans or exciting things going 623 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:56,959 Speaker 1: on with upcoming aspects of the dig mm hmmm. So, UM, 624 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:01,480 Speaker 1: we have students working on updates to the online exhibit 625 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 1: as we speak, So that's very exciting. So changing a 626 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 1: little bit about the public face of the project online 627 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 1: and um then thinking we're also cataloging finds from this 628 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:21,359 Speaker 1: past the past falls excavations. What else trish um, Yeah, 629 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 1: the one the the updates to the online exhibit, I 630 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: think that's that's a biggie. And the fact that um, 631 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,960 Speaker 1: we aim to be offering the course again in offering 632 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,120 Speaker 1: it in twenty seventeen, we're in the fall will execrate 633 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:36,719 Speaker 1: in the yard and the spring will go with the 634 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: lab catalog the material and then help with the accessioning processes, 635 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: so that becomes part of the museum's collection. So cool. 636 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,960 Speaker 1: Uh and you guys both mentioned the online site, So 637 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: where could listeners go if they want to learn more 638 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: about this? So UM to the the main website of 639 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: the Pbody Museum of Archaeology Aechnology, and then UM there's 640 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 1: a link to exhibitions and a sub link to online 641 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:13,319 Speaker 1: exhibitions and it's under their uh titled Digging Ratta And 642 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 1: it really is quite a treat. There are a lot 643 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:19,439 Speaker 1: of really fun images to look at. UHM, So glad 644 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: you enjoyed it. Oh yeah, and watch the space. More 645 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 1: changes to come. Excellent, excellent, So it will continue to develop, 646 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 1: which means it's good to go back to periodically so 647 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: I can see new stuff. Um so, and we will 648 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,720 Speaker 1: include the main link in our show notes as well. Uh. 649 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,440 Speaker 1: But otherwise, ladies, thank you so much. This has been 650 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: such a delight. Thank you so much for joining us 651 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 1: today for this Saturday classic. If you have heard any 652 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,319 Speaker 1: kind of email address or maybe a Facebook you are 653 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,920 Speaker 1: l during the course of the episode, that might be obsolete. 654 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,360 Speaker 1: It might be doubly obsolete because we have changed our 655 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: email address again. You can now reach us at history 656 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: Podcasts at i heart radio dot com, and we're all 657 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,879 Speaker 1: over social media at missed in History and you can 658 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: subscribe to our show on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, the 659 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,879 Speaker 1: I heart Radio app, and wherever else you listen to podcasts. 660 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 1: Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of 661 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,200 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for 662 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,520 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, 663 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,560 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.