1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class Fun How 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: I'm Molly Frying and I'm Tracy Wilson. So today, since 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: we are officially in the Halloween season and in the 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: Halloween mood, which I always am, we're gonna do something 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: kind of similar to the two six impossible episodes we've 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: had in the past, but these are gonna be two, 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like a history mystery double feature, 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: and it's gonna be two unsolved mysteries completely unrelated except 10 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: for the fact that they both took place in the 11 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties and both of these topics have been requested 12 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: by listeners. Both are really quite fascinating, but because of 13 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: the open ended nature of each of them and a 14 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: relative lack of evidence, trying to piece together an entire 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: episode on each would have involved a lot of speculation 16 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: rather than actual history. So we're sticking to actual things 17 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: we know for the most part, and you're getting a 18 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: two for one. So also, I wanted to include a 19 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,959 Speaker 1: quick trigger your warning. This episode does include the discussion 20 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: of some rather gory and violent things, including violence against children. 21 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: We're not going to get a specially graphic about it. 22 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: But if that's something that you're just not comfortable hearing 23 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: about in any form, or if you have younger listeners 24 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: that you would rather shield from that for the moment, 25 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: the second story in our duo might not be for you. 26 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: So first we're going to get started with the story 27 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: of Glenn and Bessie Hyde, and this one was requested 28 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: most recently by our listener Joseph. In nine newly Webb. 29 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: Glenn and Bessie Hyde decided to start their marriage by 30 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: trying to make history. They're going to travel the entire 31 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: length of the Grand Canyon by boat. So if that 32 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: doesn't sound all that ambitious to you, please rest assured that, 33 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: in fact, it was. Up to that point. Remember this, 34 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: only forty five people had managed to travel the full 35 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: length of the Grand Canyon by river, and a woman 36 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: had never done it, and Bessie wanted to be the first, 37 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: and Glenn wanted to be the fastest. The forty five 38 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: who had six askfully made the trip before the Hives 39 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: had all done so in rowboats, some of them modified, 40 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: but Glen and Bessie wanted to do it in a 41 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: sweep scal Glenn, who was almost thirty at the time, 42 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: had plenty of boating experience growing up. He boated on 43 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: the skin A River in British Columbia with his family 44 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: by canoe on a regular basis, and when Glen was 45 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: twenty one, he and a friend had actually taken a 46 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: six month trip down Canada's Peace River by canoe, and 47 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: then in n he traveled on a sweep scow with 48 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: his sister from the Salmon River in Idaho all the 49 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: way to the Pacific Ocean. Messy didn't have the same 50 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: boating experience that Glen did. She was more of an 51 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: artist than an outdoors woman, and she was a graduate 52 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: of the California School of Fine Art in San Francisco. 53 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: She was full of adventurous spirit and the pair met 54 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: in February of nineteen seven on a passenger ship, and 55 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: they got married a little more than a year later 56 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: in twin Falls, Idaho, on April twelfth of n That 57 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: was an interesting date because it was also the sixteenth 58 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: anniversary of the Titanic sinking, and it was also just 59 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: one day after Bessie's divorced from her first husband was finalized. 60 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: Part of their motivation for this daring honeymoon that often 61 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: comes up is the idea that they could monetize a 62 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: successful trip down the canyon. Two expeditions with film crews 63 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: down the river inn had garnered a lot of media 64 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: attention one of them because it went very poorly and 65 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: required a rescue. If Bessie could make it down the river, 66 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: she would make history as the first woman to do so, 67 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: and if Glenn could do it in record time, opportunities 68 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: like book deals and lecture bookings would probably follow. However, 69 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: that is uh the commonly written about reason for all 70 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: of this. But Brad Dimmock, who wrote a book about 71 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: Glenn and Bessie titled Sunk Without a Sound, actually came 72 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: into possession of a letter from Bessie to her aunt 73 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: and uncle Ruth and Millard Haley after his book had 74 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: been completed and published, and he UH posted this online 75 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: with some commentary. And in this letter Bessie writes excitedly 76 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: about the trip, and there's not a single mention though 77 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: about any of these ambitions in the way of publicity 78 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: or book deals or fame. So it's entirely possible that 79 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: that fame and money making angle that is often retold 80 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: in this whole story is one of those embellishments that 81 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: has sort of grown around the story as time has 82 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: moved the actual details out of clear focus. Glynn spent 83 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: fifty dollars and two days putting together the boat, which 84 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: they named Rain in the Face, and they precked it 85 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: with a bed, survival supplies, and journals awaiting their documentation 86 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: of the journey. They did not pack any life jackets, 87 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: and they started their journey on October with a plan 88 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: to arrive in Needles, California on December nine. Yeah. So 89 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: at this point they had only been married about six months, 90 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: and initially the Hides did successfully navigate several sections of 91 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: the river. Several weeks into the journey, on November sixteenth, 92 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: they stopped at Grand Canyon Village on the South Rim 93 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: in order to get fresh supplies, and while there they 94 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: actually spoke with the Denver Post reporter about their adventure. 95 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: They also met up with Ellsworth and Emory Colb, who 96 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: were well known boatman and even better known photographers who 97 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: had a studio on the cliff side. Emery Coleb wanted 98 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: to give them life jackets, but Glenn turned them down. 99 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: Cole would later say that it seemed like Bessie seemed 100 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: nervous and wanted to quit, but that Glenn was urging 101 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: her on, and famously, Bessie is quoted as saying, I 102 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: wonder if I'll ever wear pretty shoes again as she 103 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: looked at Emery's daughter's footwear. Then, when they returned to 104 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: the river with their resupply of provisions, they met up 105 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: with Adolph G. Sutro. This is not the Adolph Sutro 106 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: who was the mayor of San Francisco in the nineties. 107 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: It was, in fact his grandson, and Sutro asked if 108 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: he could ride along with them in their scow for 109 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: a day or so, and the Hides agreed, and Sutro 110 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: traveled the next eight miles of river with them. When 111 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: they dropped him off at Hermit Creek on November, it 112 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 1: would be the last time anyone saw them. Glenn and 113 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: Bessie did not arrive in Needles on December Nineth's plan. 114 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: When Glenn's expectant father, Roland Hide, received no word of 115 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: their landing at the pre arranged date and location, he 116 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: immediately feared that something had gone wrong. Rolland Hide launched 117 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: a massive search effort to find Glen and Bessie. There 118 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: were search parties tasked with canvassing sections of the river, 119 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: so multiple searches were going on at one time in 120 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: different places. Native American trackers were recruited to see if 121 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: they could find any evidence of the pair moving over land, 122 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: and eventually even an aerial search was authorized by the 123 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: U S Secretary of Wars. They actually used military plans 124 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: to look for them. After days of searching, the Hide 125 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: scow was spotted in the aerial sweep was sitting in 126 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: the middle of the river at mile two thirty seven. 127 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: Emory Colb and his brother joined Roland Hide, and the 128 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: trio traveled to Peach Springs, Arizona, where they hiked down 129 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: to the mouth of Diamond Creek. Located at mouth there 130 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 1: are boats at awaiting repair. The Cold brothers took several 131 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: days to get the reclaimed boat water ready, and then 132 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: they headed to the location where the scout had been spotted. 133 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: Roland did not go with them. When they reached the 134 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: rain in the face, it was December. The boat was 135 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: completely intact. All of the supplies that Glenn and Bessie 136 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: had packed remained, and everything was tidy and stowed properly. 137 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: It did not look like it had been shifted about 138 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: in some sort of dangerous event. Uh. The Cold Brothers 139 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: photograph the scene then, being quite well known photographers, we 140 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: actually have some really good pictures in terms of capturing 141 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: what they found. And then they returned to Roland Hyde. 142 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: They gathered as much as they could take with them, 143 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: and they told him that it did not appear that 144 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: Glenn and Bessie had left their boat intentionally. Based on 145 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: Bessie's diary which was found in the boat, the two 146 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: thirty two mile Rapid was likely the last section of 147 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: river that they ran. They had made it six hundred 148 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: miles on the Green and Colorado Rivers. The boat was 149 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: found just forty six miles from the mouth of Grand Canyon, 150 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: and according to the details of the journal, they had 151 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: actually been ahead of schedule. Yea, so they had been 152 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: moving along quite well. They were ahead of schedule. They 153 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: were very close to the end. Uh. But we they 154 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: were simply not there when they went to look for them. 155 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: And while I want to be clear when I say 156 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: that all of their supplies were stowed, they were in 157 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: the places you would expect them to be during normal use. 158 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: They weren't stowed like packed away like they had had 159 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: left the boat and they were going off somewhere else. 160 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: But before we wrap up the Glen and Bessie Hyde story, 161 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: let's pause for a brief word from one of our 162 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 1: fabulous sponsors. Sounds good. It was not long before most 163 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: people and most news outlets declared that the newlyweds must 164 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: be dead. Their bodies were not ever found, though, although 165 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: Roland later did return to search for them. Yeah, he 166 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 1: even went back the following winter to search for them. 167 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: He kind of looked in different conditions hoping that he 168 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: would find them, but nothing ever turned up. So what 169 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: happened to the newly weds remains of street, although, of course, 170 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: in cases like this, numerous theories have arisen. Where the 171 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: hides murdered? Did they drown? A few interesting possibilities have 172 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: cropped up over the years that kind of get repeated 173 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: over and over. In ninetev one, during a commercial boating trip, 174 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: while the participants were sitting around a campfire, an elderly 175 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: woman claimed to be Bessie. When the woman was questioned 176 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: by one of the other attendees about Glenn, she said 177 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: she had stabbed him after a fight and then hikes 178 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: to Peach Springs, Arizona and gotten on a bus going 179 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: east where she started a new life. Investigation unearthed a 180 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: far more mundane story that she was simply a retired 181 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: lady who liked to pull people's legs. Yeah, it seems 182 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: really cool, and it's one of those things I always 183 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: have to chuckle a little bit if you read sort 184 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: of brief descriptions of this. They'll talk about all of 185 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: the possibilities, but they never talked about the more mundane things. 186 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: They get turned up if you look more closely, of course. 187 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: And then later in nineteen seventy six, a skull with 188 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: a bullet hole in it was found on Emery Cobb's 189 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: property and rumors started to circulate that it could be Glenn's. However, 190 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: forensics ruled out that possibility. That man who I don't 191 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: believe has ever been identified, had died no earlier according 192 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: to these to testing the nineteen seventy two and he 193 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: was only twenty two at the time, so he could 194 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: not possibly have been Glenn. Another River guy, a woman 195 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: named Georgie Clark, died in two and among her belongings 196 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: was found the highest marriage certificate, So question coming up 197 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: was she Bessie? There was also a birth certificate indicating 198 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: that her name was Bessie d Ross, not Georgie, which 199 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: has also field and speculation, but none of these claims 200 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 1: have been substantiated. Yeah, a number of historians have weighed 201 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: in on it, and after closer investigation, they really don't 202 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: feel like this is the real deal, And I think 203 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: the documents are authentic or right um or that, like, 204 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: possibly one is but not the other. It would be 205 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: weird if Bessie had vanished on the river and she 206 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: happened to have her birth certificate and marriage certificate with her, Like, 207 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: those aren't things you take on a boating trip. At 208 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: least it's not anything I would take on a boating trip. 209 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: But uh, those are just some food for thoughts. So 210 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: we really don't know. The you know, speculation will probably 211 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: go on forever because at this point we are almost 212 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: a hundred years out, We're ninety years out or show, 213 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: and you know, we're not not likely going to get 214 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: any big answers on those. Uh. And that brings us 215 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: to the second of our sort of creepy story double feature. 216 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: This is uh insanely creepy in my opinion. It's also 217 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: often very requested. Most recently it was requested by our 218 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: listeners Stacy. And while it is a great story and 219 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: one that I have always found fascinating and have debated 220 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: about trying to put a standalone epis sewed together around it, 221 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: there just really is not enough to go on. Uh. 222 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: So that's the scoop on this one. We are talking 223 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: about the hinter K murders. This is a long standing 224 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: unsolved crime and it's one of the most famous in 225 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: German history. So the word hinter kfk. I think part 226 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: of the reason that this one gets so much excitement 227 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: is it it sounds exotic because it's foreign to any 228 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: English listeners, but English speaking listeners. But in fact, that 229 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: is actually the name of the farm where these murders 230 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: took place. Hinter if I'm remembering my very sloppy appreciation 231 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: of German correctly, usually means behind uh and this was 232 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: behind an area that would have been called Kfe. This 233 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,079 Speaker 1: farmstead was about three from grubern Uh and that was 234 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: in the Bavarian municipality of Vangen, which is now the 235 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: municipality of Vadhoven, and the farm was about a kilometer 236 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: away from the town of k Fix. So, like I said, 237 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: the name literally meant behind kfik and it was a 238 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: relatively isolated farmstead living at Hinder Cafe in nineteen two 239 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: when this happened, where a farmer Andrea Scruber who was 240 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,719 Speaker 1: sixty three, his wife Cazilia, who was seventy two, their 241 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: daughter Victoria aged thirty five, who was a widow, and 242 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,599 Speaker 1: Victoria's two children, all one also named Kazia who was 243 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: seven and Joseph who was two. In addition to the family, 244 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: a brand new maid named Maria Bumgartner age forty four 245 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: was at the farm as well, and we mean we 246 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: mean super brand new. She had started work the very 247 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: day that these events were going to talk about came 248 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: to a crescendo. The previous made that they had had 249 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: had quit rather abruptly six months prior in the autumn 250 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: of one, and the story goes that she very frankly 251 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: told them that she believed that the farm was haunted, 252 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: that she wanted to leave right away, and she believed 253 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: that because she heard noises both footsteps and voices, she 254 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: claimed coming from the attic. On March at Andreas Gruber 255 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: made an odd discovery. He found footprints in the snow 256 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: leading from the edge of the forest to his farm. 257 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: There was no matching set leading back into the woods. 258 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: My heart is beating a little faster having read that something. 259 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: He also found evidence that someone had tried to pick 260 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: the lock on his garage. He told his neighbors that 261 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: he had found a strange paper left at the house 262 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: and had heard strange noises in the attic. A set 263 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: of keys had also vanished. And upon hearing about these 264 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: strange events we should include the grouper checked them out. 265 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: He looked in the attic and he found nobody, and 266 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: he you know, looked around for his keys, and he 267 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: tried to think of any way that the newspaper could 268 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: have gotten I believe it was on his porch. Uh. 269 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: But he never found anybody or anything. He just kind 270 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: of shrugged it off. So when he was telling his 271 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: neighbors about these strange events, one of them actually offered 272 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: him a revolver for self defense because it sounded really 273 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: creepy to them, But Grouper actually turned that off her down. 274 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna imagine that somebody walked really carefully in 275 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: their same footprints on the way back from the house 276 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: to the edge of the forest on Saturday, April one, 277 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: the younger because he missed school. On April second, the 278 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: entire family failed to appear at church, which was extremely unusual. 279 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: On Monday, April three, because he was once again absent 280 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: from school, and when the postman attempted to deliver mail 281 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: that day, he noticed Saturday's mail was still in the box. 282 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: When nobody answered his knock, he just left that day's mail. 283 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: A mechanic named Albert Hofner went to the farm on 284 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: April four to complete some repair to a piece of 285 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: machinery that he had been contracted to do, and he knocked. 286 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: He didn't get any answer, and he saw no one, 287 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: but he knew what he had to do, so he 288 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: went ahead and repaired the feeding machine. It took him 289 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: about five hours, and during that time he saw no 290 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: one and he left and he didn't mention into neighbors 291 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: as he left. Hey, I didn't see any of the groupers, 292 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: but I was there and I fixed their machine. So 293 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: let them know. And that's where things started to get 294 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: a little suspicious. So later in the afternoon of April four, 295 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: neighbors finally decided to check in on the groupers. Nobody 296 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: had seen any of them for several days, when nobody 297 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: answered any of their knocks or calls, they noticed that 298 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: the barn doors were locked, so they broke in. And 299 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: before we get to the barn discovery and so truly 300 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: creepy and probably unsettling for some listeners, elements of this 301 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: story that come out after that, we're gonna pause for 302 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: a sponsor break so we don't have to drop it 303 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: right into the middle of any gruesome discussion. So what 304 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: these neighbors found in this barn that they broke into 305 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: was horrifying, to say the least. And the barn were 306 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: four corpses. These were the bodies of Andreas Casilia, the 307 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: elder Victoria, and the child Casilia. The bodies had been 308 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: covered over with straw, and then an old door had 309 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: been placed on top of it. Further investigation revealed that 310 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: the maid, Maria Baumgartner and the tiny Joseph had been 311 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,479 Speaker 1: murdered in the farmhouse. A young man was sent by 312 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: bicycle to von Gan to summon the authorities. By the 313 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,959 Speaker 1: time the investigators got there, though, there was already a 314 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: crowd milling about contaminating evidence. If you like crowds, should 315 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: always listen to our podcast because this is a recurring theme, 316 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: and w crowd came and they tromped all over everything. 317 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: When we time travel, that can be our our entire 318 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: mission is to go tell crowds not to go contaminate evidence. 319 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: So allegedly some of the crowd were even in the 320 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: kitchen making snacks for other people. Yeah, so needless to say, 321 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: evidence was going to be pretty dicey at that point. 322 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: Autopsies were carried out on site in the barn, I 323 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: believe by Dr Johann Baptiste al Mutler, and it was 324 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: determined that on the night of March thirty one to 325 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: the six people had each been brutally attacked with blows 326 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: to the head. Despite some of the contamination of the evidence, 327 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: investigators were able to piece things together enough to come 328 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: to the conclusion that the four members of the family 329 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: who had been killed in the barn had been lured 330 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: there one by one in some way as a sort 331 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: of tramp and kind of lured in and jumped. Andreas's wife, 332 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: Cazelia and their daughter Victoria also showed signs of strangulation 333 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: in addition to their head wounds. The younger Cazelia had 334 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: pieces of her own hair clenched in her right hand. 335 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: It was postulated that she had not died instantly like 336 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: the others have, and that that the others had and 337 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: that she may have torn out her own hair in 338 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: dismay or shock. The heads of all of the bodies 339 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: were removed by Dr. Al Mueller and sent to Munich 340 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: for additional investigation, since that was the area that seemed 341 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: to have sustained the death blow, and these heads were 342 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: also allegedly handled by a clairvoyant. Eventually that was brought 343 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: in by authorities in a desperate attempt to get any 344 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: sort of lead in the case. Neither the examiners in 345 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: Munich nor any of the psychics discovered anything new in 346 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,959 Speaker 1: the handling of the victim's heads. Numerous details, aside from 347 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: the grizzly killings, made the discovery of the Hinokapic murders 348 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: really unsettling. While the family had been killed on the 349 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,360 Speaker 1: night of March thirty one and the days between then 350 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: and the discovery on April four, neighbors had seen smoke 351 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: coming from the farmhouse chimney. Additionally, the animals on the 352 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: farm had been cared for during that time and the 353 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: cows had been milked. It was as though the killer 354 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: or killers made himself at home for a while after 355 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: brutally dispatching with the family, and given the fact that 356 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 1: Gruber had lost a set of keys and found a 357 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: random newspaper just prior to the murders, it's entirely possible 358 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: that the killer may have made himself at home for 359 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: a while before the events on March thirty one. While 360 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: the robbery was initially suspected as the motive, there were 361 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: large sums of cash that were easily found in the 362 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: house and had obviously been left behind. There were also 363 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: some roof tiles that appeared to have been drawn back 364 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: in two places, one over the barn roof went on 365 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: the barn roof and one over the farmhouse. And if 366 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: I understand descriptions and looked at the photos correctly, there 367 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: was kind of one big roof that covered the barn, 368 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: and then there was like a courtyard that had a roof, 369 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: and then it also continued over to the house, but 370 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: over the barn and over the house. Tiles had been 371 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: removed so that an intruder that was hidden could have 372 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,959 Speaker 1: had pretty easy views of both the whole farmstead and 373 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: the family, depending on where they were positioned. So this 374 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 1: family had had problems before they were murdered. They were 375 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: a well known family, but not really that popular in 376 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: the community. Andreas in particular had a bad reputation for 377 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: a number of reasons. One was that he was abusive 378 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: to his wife. He also was believed to have had 379 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: an incestuous relationship with his daughter Victoria, and many believed 380 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: that young Joseph was in fact his child. It's pretty 381 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: easy math to note that Joseph had been born about 382 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: five years after Victoria's husband had died, so he definitely 383 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: was not a child of that marriage, because remember, he 384 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: was two when this happened. And at the time of 385 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: Joseph's birth, a neighboring farmer named Lauren Schlittenbauer was named 386 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: as the father of Joseph, but this actually became a 387 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:35,239 Speaker 1: really contentious issue, and Schlittenbauer actively claimed that Andreas had 388 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 1: fathered his own grandchild. As for suspects, there's a fairly 389 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 1: popular theory that Victoria may not have been a widow 390 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: after all, and that her husband committed the murders. Carl 391 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: Gabriel died in the transits in France during World War One, 392 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,479 Speaker 1: and you'll occasionally fine site that will say things like, 393 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: but his body was never recovered. There are plenty of 394 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: eyewitness accounts of him being killed at the Battle of 395 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: Nuvilla on December to wealth nineteen four, so it's really sensationalism. 396 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: But unfortunately, it's also all too common for the bodies 397 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: of soldiers to go unrecovered in wartime yep uh. There 398 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: are some financial reasons that people point to as like 399 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: what would have been his motivator or that he was 400 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: angry about the incest. Again, in a case like this, 401 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: for there is not much to go on, it's very 402 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: easy to fill in the blanks with fanciful thoughts. Another 403 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: popular theory names that neighbor Lauren Schlittenbauer as the likely 404 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: killer due to his entanglement with Victoria, because there is 405 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: some pretty significant indicators that he in Victoria did have 406 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: some sort of sexual relationship um and this battle that 407 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: he had with Andreas over whether or not he had 408 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: fathered Victoria's youngest child. There's also some assertions in there 409 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 1: that he may have planned to marry Victoria, but that 410 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: Andreas was very jealous of her and would not allow 411 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: her to do so. So there is a lot of 412 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 1: drama connected to the Schlittenbauer possibility. The Gruberg family and 413 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: Maria Bumgartner were interred at wide Hoffen, their heads were 414 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: never returned from Munich and their beliefs to have been 415 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: lost during World War two. Yeah, ironically, I have never 416 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: really dug up much that attaches any sort of creepiness 417 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: to the loss of these six heads. Uh. People just 418 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: tend to write it off. As you know, world War two, 419 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: there were lots of crazy things happening, and it's entirely 420 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: possible that that was simply destroyed. Uh. And what's also 421 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: interesting is that during the initial investigation, no murder weapon 422 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: was found, even though on the autopsy report it does 423 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: suggest that it was a pickaxe. However, when the buildings 424 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: at the farmstead were torn down a year after all 425 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: of these events, a madock was allegedly found. And a 426 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: matic is similar to an ice pick. It has a 427 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: long handle and it has a head that has a 428 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: cutter on one end and either an axe blade or 429 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: a pick on the other. A man who sometimes worked 430 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: as a hand on the farm identify the matic as 431 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: belonging to Gruber. It was one he owned and had 432 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: in fact made, was normally stored with the rest of 433 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: the tools and equipment in the tool shed. Yes, so 434 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: by virtue of it and not having been found when 435 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: everything happened in the initial investigation happened and only being 436 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: turned up a year later when they raised the buildings, 437 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: it does kind of point to it having been out 438 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: of place. But we don't know. And while dozens of 439 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: people were questioned in the case, more than a hundred, 440 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: no official suspect was ever named. Uh. This case has 441 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: been reopened at various points throughout the years. It has 442 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: never been solved, though, I believe in two thousand seven 443 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: there was a university group that did a study of 444 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: it where they tried to apply modern forensics to what 445 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: they had, and they came up with who they feel 446 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: is the most likely killer, but they did not name 447 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: that person out of respect for the fact that there 448 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,959 Speaker 1: are surviving relatives of that person and it would kind 449 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: of just be dredging up something that couldn't be proven 450 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: and could potentially taint the family name. But we basically 451 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: don't know what happened. We don't know if someone was 452 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: living in their attic for six months, because remember their 453 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: previous maid had said quite some time before the murders 454 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: that she heard voices and weird noises, or if this 455 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: was just a one day event that happened. I will 456 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: also tell you this as a warning if you go 457 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: looking for this online. There are some pretty graphic images 458 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: taken of the crime scenes. So if that is not 459 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: something you are comfortable looking at or can stomach, I 460 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: would not google search this particular thing. Don't google it 461 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: at all. Like this thing up and that here are 462 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: some images about They're extremely, extremely horrifying, and they are 463 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: literally the first thing that comes up when you google it. Uh. 464 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: This reminds me of creepy stories that keep circulating around 465 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: the Internet at various times, where people are like I 466 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: just discovered someone has been secretly secretly living in this 467 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: tiny compartment that was in our walls, and yeah, yeah, 468 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: it is a very creepy thing. I mean, it's kind 469 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: of I think one of the reasons that people, I 470 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: don't want to say love to tell this story because 471 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: that sounds horrifying. But there is a certain fascination with it. 472 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: And part of it is that it combines so many 473 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: of the key elements of like a good scary story, 474 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: you know. One there is some gruesome murders too. There 475 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: is this possibility that there is a person watching people 476 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: for a long time unnoticed. And three, there is all 477 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: of this weird drama around love triangles and you know, paternity, 478 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: and there's just it has all of the ingredients for 479 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: a good drama, which is well and like it so much. 480 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: I can't remember if I have mentioned this in a 481 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: previous post episode wrap up slash listener mail. There is 482 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: an eerily similar murder near where I grew up that's 483 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: similar in that the whole family was blood into death 484 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of rumors about whether the 485 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: father of the family had been having an affair with 486 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,719 Speaker 1: the daughter. Um. It seems like this is a story 487 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: that crops up repeatedly in terms of whole families being 488 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: slaughtered with with questionable things going on in the families 489 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: history and relationships. Yeah, uh yeah, it's a it's very fascinating. 490 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: Like I said, it's a very fascinating story, and I 491 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: have kind of tiptoed around it for a long time, 492 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: going oh, when can I start doing And I finally 493 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 1: just decided to do it, like I said, as a 494 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 1: combo with another thing that couldn't quite fill out an episode. 495 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: So that's in again the sense of classic horror Drive 496 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 1: in moments. Ever, it's your podcast double feature. But now 497 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: I have listener mail which is a little bit tragic 498 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: but also a little bit fabulous, and it is from 499 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: our listener. Errand and Eron says, I recently listened to 500 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: your podcast on the vanishing of the USS Cyclops and 501 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: in it you mentioned the disappearance of Flight and I teen, which, 502 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: while tragic, allowed me, my sister, and all my cousins 503 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: to come into existence. My grandmother was engaged to be 504 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: married to one of the pilots lost in Flight nineteen, 505 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: George Panessa. Unfortunately, after he was lost in the training flight, 506 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: he was of course unable to marry my grandmother, and 507 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 1: years later she met and married my grandfather, leading to 508 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,199 Speaker 1: six children and ten grandchildren who would not exist if 509 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: George hadn't been lost. To add to the story of 510 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: my great aunt married George's brother, Frank, so there is 511 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: still pan us of blood in my family. A few 512 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: years ago there was an unsolved Mysteries episode regarding Flight 513 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: nineteen which claimed that George reached out to his sister 514 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: in law, ostensibly my great aunt, and said in a letter, 515 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: I'm fine, don't come looking for me, this never actually happened. 516 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: The case later revealed a photo of George's alleged girlfriend 517 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: at the time of his death. This is most definitely 518 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: not a picture of my grandmother, So the mystery continues. 519 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: I myself and happy to say that if it were 520 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: not for the Bermuda Triangle, I would not be who 521 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: I am today. I love this for a number of reasons. 522 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: One because it is a really great story, but to 523 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: it also really does point out like if you're watching 524 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: things sometimes on television, you can't always trust the veracity 525 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: of the things they are telling and showing you. Uh 526 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: So that is one of the reasons we try to 527 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: be really careful with sources. I will confess that when 528 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: I was doing my hinter Cafic research, there's not a 529 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: lot of English language stuff, so I was going to 530 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: German sites and translating. So hopefully I did not munge 531 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: up any of the details in those translations, because it 532 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: is very tricky and I am not fluent in German 533 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: by a long shot. I know only the tiniest amount. 534 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: But yeah, so that is our double feature and an 535 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: interesting touchback on the vanishing of Flight nineteen. Thank you, Aaron. 536 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: That's a cool story. If you would like to write 537 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: to us, you can do so at History Podcast at 538 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: house to works dot com. We're also on Facebook dot 539 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: com slash mist in history at miss in History, on 540 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: Twitter at pinterest dot com slash missed in history. We 541 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: are on Tumbler at mist in history dot tumbler dot com. 542 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: We have an Instagram at mist in history where we 543 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: uh kind of share images related to shows and also 544 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: some other fun And if you would like to go 545 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: to our parents site, how stuff Works, type in the 546 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: words unsolved Mysteries and you will come up with a 547 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: couple of interesting things. One is cliffhangers and cryptograms the 548 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: Unsolved Mystery Quiz, and the other is an article I 549 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: really love called ten Unsolved Mysteries that have Been Solved 550 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: because I will confess that I am a little bit 551 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: of a skeptic, uh and I like to see things 552 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: get solved. Uh. And I also just realized that I 553 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: forgot to do my second piece of listener mail that 554 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: I wanted to do, so this is really just thanks. 555 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: We've gotten some really fabulous postcards in the recent past. Uh. 556 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: One is from our listener. I believe it is Aubrey 557 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: or Audrey and I'm sorry, I can't get it right, 558 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: but the postal markings have obscured your name. Is a 559 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: beautiful applicate postcard from Pagosa Springs, Colorado is absolutely gorgeous. 560 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: We got several that I shared on Instagram recently. One 561 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: is from I believe it is pronounced Shane. That is 562 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: from Disneyland and it is a gorgeous picture of Bell 563 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: on her magical float. We got one of a gorilla 564 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,479 Speaker 1: riding a bicycle from our listener Heather, which I am 565 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: in love with. It's just supposed to be bigfoot on 566 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: a bicycool, not a gorilla, I'm sorry. And then we 567 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: got a really cool one. The graphic is gorgeous of 568 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: WEEKI watching Springs and that came from our listener Laurence. 569 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: So thank you all for sending us stuff. I'm trying 570 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: to make sure we call out some of our cool 571 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: postcard senders more recently, more in the near future, and 572 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: like I said, check out on Instagram. Several of these 573 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: appeared on there. So with that, go visit our parents 574 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: site How's to Works dot com and look fabulous things up. 575 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: Visit us at missed in history dot com for episodes 576 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: all of them going back to the beginning of time 577 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: on the podcast, and show notes for all of the 578 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: ones that Tracy and I have worked on, as well 579 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,959 Speaker 1: as the occasional other delights. So yeah, and visit us 580 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: at how stuff Works dot com and missed in History 581 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 582 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: Is it has to have work stop in in