WEBVTT - Trump Promised Revenge. He’s Using the DOJ to Make It Happen

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>For those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am

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<v Speaker 2>your retribution. I am your retribution. Retribution was a key

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<v Speaker 2>theme of President Donald Trump's return to the White House.

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<v Speaker 2>Here he is in twenty twenty two speaking about the

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<v Speaker 2>injustice he saw in the convictions of January sixth, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and if it requires pardons, we will give them pardons

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<v Speaker 2>because they are being treated so unfairly. And in twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty three talking about the injustice of the cases brought

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<v Speaker 2>against him. But remember it's a Democrat charging his opponent.

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<v Speaker 1>Nobody's ever seen anything like it.

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<v Speaker 2>That means that if I win and somebody wants to

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<v Speaker 2>run against me.

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<v Speaker 1>I call my attorney general. I say, listen, indict him. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>he hasn't done anything wrong that we know.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know up on income tax evasion. You'll figure

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<v Speaker 2>it out.

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<v Speaker 1>Going into his second term, it was an open question

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<v Speaker 1>about how much time would be spent on policy versus

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<v Speaker 1>how much time would be spent on revenge.

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<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg's senior national political reporter, Nancy Cook has covered Trump

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<v Speaker 2>for a decade and interviewed him at mar A Lago

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<v Speaker 2>a couple days before the first twenty twenty four presidential debate.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there were people around him who wanted him

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<v Speaker 1>to really build a big policy agenda and were steering

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<v Speaker 1>him away from the retribution agenda. But what we've seen

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<v Speaker 1>in office so far is that the retribution agenda is

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<v Speaker 1>alive and well, and even more so than I think

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<v Speaker 1>Republicans and even people close to Trump thought were possible.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Sarah Holder, and this is the big take from

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<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg News today on the show, how Trump is upending

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<v Speaker 2>norms and expanding presidential powers to target his perceived political enemies.

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<v Speaker 2>A major weapon in that fight the Department of Justice.

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<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg's Nancy Cook says that when Trump took office in January,

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<v Speaker 2>he made it clear that retribution wasn't just a campaign theme,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a key part of his second term agenda.

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<v Speaker 1>The tools at his disposal are quite large at this

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<v Speaker 1>point because his administration is taking a very broad view

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<v Speaker 1>of presidential executive power. And I would say that unlike

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<v Speaker 1>the first term, this time they have really approached the

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<v Speaker 1>retribution campaign with real military style precision, a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>savviness about how to use the levers of the federal government.

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<v Speaker 1>We saw him very quickly go after law firms that

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<v Speaker 1>had done work for people he didn't like, using social

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<v Speaker 1>media to go after people pulling security clearances, and then

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<v Speaker 1>lately we've seen him go after specific people who have

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<v Speaker 1>been personally critical of the Trump administration.

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<v Speaker 2>The Department of Justice has indicted for FBI Director James Core.

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<v Speaker 3>President Trump's former national security advisor, John Bolton, has just been.

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<v Speaker 1>On the Attorney General Letitia James has been indicted.

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<v Speaker 2>Part of what's enabled the Trump administration to pursue these

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<v Speaker 2>targets is the cooperation of the Department of Justice.

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<v Speaker 3>Pam Bondi said during her confirmation hearing to be Attorney

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<v Speaker 3>generalist she wasn't going to have an enemies list at

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<v Speaker 3>the Justice Department, but she doesn't need an enemy's list

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<v Speaker 3>because she has been given Trump's enemies list.

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<v Speaker 2>Chris Strome covers the Department of Justice for Bloomberg.

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<v Speaker 3>Across the board, Bondie and her top staff have been

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<v Speaker 3>carrying out essentially a purge at the Justice Department, where

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<v Speaker 3>hundreds of people, career prosecutors and staff have been fired

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<v Speaker 3>or resigned, and in concert with that, they've been investigating

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<v Speaker 3>and now prosecuting individuals who Trump has identified as being

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<v Speaker 3>his political enemies. They are carrying out broad, sweeping investigations

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<v Speaker 3>into what Trump and his allies have said is a

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<v Speaker 3>grand conspiracy against Trump, dating back to twenty sixteen, starting

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<v Speaker 3>with the Russian investigation, going into the Moler investigation, going

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<v Speaker 3>into the investigation to Trump's efforts to overturn the twenty

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<v Speaker 3>twenty election, and then the investigation into Trump retaining classified documents.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems he doesn't view this as weaponizing the justice system.

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<v Speaker 2>He views this as using the justice system in the

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<v Speaker 2>same way that it was used against him. Is that fair.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. One of the really interesting approaches that Trump and

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<v Speaker 3>his allies are taking is to say that the Justice

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<v Speaker 3>Department was weaponized against them and therefore or they're trying

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<v Speaker 3>to correct the record. They're trying to prosecute people who

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<v Speaker 3>carried out criminal actions up to and including treason against Trump.

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<v Speaker 3>And if you look at the actions that are being

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<v Speaker 3>taken now against Jim Comey or Letitia James or John Bolton,

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of it is finding any kind of charge

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<v Speaker 3>that they possibly can to hang onto somebody. It doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>matter that these charges don't have anything to do with

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<v Speaker 3>the grand conspiracy. All that matters is that these people

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<v Speaker 3>are under investigation and now being prosecuted, and so Trump

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<v Speaker 3>can claim that he's been right all along in saying

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<v Speaker 3>that these people are dirty and these people are corrupt,

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<v Speaker 3>and therefore they deserve to go to jail.

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<v Speaker 2>Are there any mechanisms in place that are supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>prevent the president from using the Department of Justice in

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<v Speaker 2>this way.

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<v Speaker 3>One of the really interesting lessons from the Trump era

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<v Speaker 3>is that what we thought were rules and regulations governing

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<v Speaker 3>how the Justice Department operated and how criminal prosecutions were

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<v Speaker 3>conducted actually don't really exist. What Trump has exposed is

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<v Speaker 3>that we've been relying on a series of norms and

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<v Speaker 3>traditions where the Justice Department would willingly have a distance

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<v Speaker 3>and an independence from the administration. Multiple Attorney generals and

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<v Speaker 3>Justice Department officials across administrations have enforced policies and rules

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<v Speaker 3>that would separate the Justice Department from the White House

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<v Speaker 3>when it came to conducting investigations and making decisions about prosecutions.

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<v Speaker 3>Trump has obliterated that he's come in with a wrecking

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<v Speaker 3>ball and essentially has declared himself as being the chief

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<v Speaker 3>law enforcement officer of the country and the person who

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<v Speaker 3>can make decisions about who should be prosecuted and even

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<v Speaker 3>how they can be prosecuted.

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<v Speaker 2>Nancy Cooke says that change in norms is something you

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<v Speaker 2>can actually see.

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<v Speaker 1>One thing that has struck me just visually about Trump

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<v Speaker 1>in his second term is Pam Bondy is over in

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<v Speaker 1>the Oval Office a lot of public events. I covered

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<v Speaker 1>the first Trump term, I covered two years of Biden's

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<v Speaker 1>White House, Like I don't remember Merrick Garland being over

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<v Speaker 1>in the Oval Office all the time for events. Pam

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<v Speaker 1>Bondy is over there, often standing behind Trump as he

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<v Speaker 1>makes pronouncements, standing there with other officials. I would say

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<v Speaker 1>they're upending a lot of the legal agencies, including the FBI,

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<v Speaker 1>the CIA, But it's like she is visually aligned with

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<v Speaker 1>the President in these photo ops all the time as well.

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<v Speaker 2>The distance and independence the White House has traditionally kept

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<v Speaker 2>from the Department of Justice is a modern phenomenon that

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<v Speaker 2>only dates back to the aftermath of Richard Nixon's presidency

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<v Speaker 2>and the Watergate scandal.

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<v Speaker 3>Nixon tried to use the powers of the presidency in

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<v Speaker 3>order to invest to Gate his political enemies, and Nixon

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<v Speaker 3>tried to actually tell the Justice Department how to carry

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<v Speaker 3>out investigations. Members of Congress actually stood up to the

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<v Speaker 3>president and determined that the actions that were being taken

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<v Speaker 3>were offensive, that there had to be certain guardrails put

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<v Speaker 3>in place. And so that's when you began to see

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<v Speaker 3>laws that were actually passed, such as creating inspector generals

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<v Speaker 3>within these agencies. But during this Trump administration, those safeguards

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<v Speaker 3>have just been knocked down. Trump fired a bunch of

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<v Speaker 3>inspector generals. He has declared that he can do what

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<v Speaker 3>he wants with the Justice Department, and you're not seeing

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<v Speaker 3>the same pushback in Congress that you did forty years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>Coming up, what's next in the cases of former FBI

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<v Speaker 2>director James Comey and New York's Attorney General Letitia James,

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<v Speaker 2>And what kind of new precedent Trump's norm breaking dj

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<v Speaker 2>could set. It's been over half a century since Nixon's

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<v Speaker 2>Watergate scandal pushed Congress to create firmer boundaries between the

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<v Speaker 2>Department of Justice and the president, but now Trump has

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<v Speaker 2>started breaking them. Critics have said that many of the

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<v Speaker 2>indictments Trump's DOJ has opened so far are motivated by

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<v Speaker 2>the president's quest for revenge. Trump doesn't see it that way.

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<v Speaker 2>It's about Justice's.

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<v Speaker 1>Brilliant, It's not revenge.

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<v Speaker 2>In late September, he was asked about the indictment of

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<v Speaker 2>former FBI director James Comy as he boarded Air Force one.

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<v Speaker 2>Comy was charged with making a false statement and obstructing

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<v Speaker 2>a congressional proceeding related to his twenty twenty testimony at

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<v Speaker 2>a Senate Judiciary hearing. He's pleaded not guilty. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>also about the fact that you can't let this go on.

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<v Speaker 2>They are sick, radical left people and they can't get

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<v Speaker 2>away with it and call me was one of the people.

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<v Speaker 2>He wasn't the biggest. Kmy first got on Trump's bad

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<v Speaker 2>side back in twenty sixteen, when Komy opened an investigation

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<v Speaker 2>into alleged ties between Trump's first presidential campaign and Russia.

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<v Speaker 3>That was the original Sin.

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<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg DOJ reporter Chris Strom.

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<v Speaker 3>As the investigation continued, Trump fired Komy in May of

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<v Speaker 3>twenty seventeen, and Komy then leaked some of his written

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<v Speaker 3>memos about his interactions with Trump and the public. Revelations

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<v Speaker 3>were very damaging to Trump and actually led the Justice

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<v Speaker 3>Department at that time to a point Special Counsel Moler

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<v Speaker 3>to carry on the Russia investigation, and ever since then,

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<v Speaker 3>Trump has vilified Komy and called for his prosecution.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was something he couldn't get done in his

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<v Speaker 2>first term and became a big priority and part of

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<v Speaker 2>how he shaped the Justice Department in his second term.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he was not getting the results he wanted during

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<v Speaker 3>the beginning of his second administration, and so he put

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<v Speaker 3>out a very public demand on social media, essentially in

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<v Speaker 3>order to Bondie, demanding that Comy and others like Letitia

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<v Speaker 3>James be prosecuted. And it was only days later that

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<v Speaker 3>the White House installed one of Trump's White House aides,

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<v Speaker 3>Lindsay Halligan, who Trump abruptly put in as the interim

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<v Speaker 3>Use Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia. And just

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<v Speaker 3>days after she was inserted into that position, she brought

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<v Speaker 3>an indictment against James Comy, and then a couple weeks later,

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<v Speaker 3>she brought an indictment against Letitia James.

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<v Speaker 2>James had launched a federal civil fraud against Trump and

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<v Speaker 2>the Trump Organization in twenty twenty two and one in October,

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<v Speaker 2>she was charged with mortgage occupancy fraud and for making

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<v Speaker 2>false statements to a financial institution. She's also pleaded not guilty.

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<v Speaker 3>The career prosecutors working in the Easter District of Virginia

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<v Speaker 3>had reached a decision that there was no justification to

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<v Speaker 3>bring these cases against Kome and James and that most

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<v Speaker 3>likely these cases would fail in court.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm wondering how Trump, being very open about his dislike

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<v Speaker 2>of Komy might play into this case, because I know

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<v Speaker 2>Komy has asked for the charges against him to be dismissed,

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<v Speaker 2>arguing that he is being personally targeted.

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<v Speaker 3>Komy has already filed a motion to say that the

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<v Speaker 3>indictment against him should be dismissed because it represents an

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<v Speaker 3>addictive and selective prosecution, and his legal team has cited

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<v Speaker 3>the multitude of times that Trump has disparaged Komye or

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<v Speaker 3>called for his prosecution. These motions have already been made,

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<v Speaker 3>They're under consideration by the judge. And trying to succeed

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<v Speaker 3>with emotion claiming vindictive and selective prosecutions very difficult. A

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<v Speaker 3>lot of defendants do it but don't have success. Komy

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<v Speaker 3>might be the poster child for a case that can

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<v Speaker 3>actually succeed, and if Comy's motion succeeds, it most likely

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<v Speaker 3>will also be replicated by Letitia James in her motion

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<v Speaker 3>and others who are still to come.

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<v Speaker 2>Comy and James, for their part, are both determined to

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<v Speaker 2>fight their charges in court. Their trials are set for January,

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<v Speaker 2>and over the past year, several DOJ attorneys have resigned

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<v Speaker 2>in protest over directives they were given in other investigations.

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<v Speaker 2>But Chris says Trump's DOJ is facing resistance that's much

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<v Speaker 2>more muted than it was in the Nixon era.

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<v Speaker 3>Congress has largely been absent. I mean Democrats don't have

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<v Speaker 3>any power. They don't control either the House or the Senate,

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<v Speaker 3>and so in order to have oversight hearings or to

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<v Speaker 3>demand information from the administration or issue subpoenas that can

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<v Speaker 3>only come from the Republican majority, and they're not doing it.

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<v Speaker 3>You do have individuals inside agencies such as the Justice

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<v Speaker 3>Department that are questioning what the White House and what

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<v Speaker 3>Trump are doing. There have been some examples where even

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<v Speaker 3>Attorney General Bondie and Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche have

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<v Speaker 3>resisted certain steps that Trump and his allies want the

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<v Speaker 3>Justice Department to take. There's still some open questions about

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<v Speaker 3>what the Justice Department is going to do with some

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<v Speaker 3>of these cases that they haven't been fully on board

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<v Speaker 3>with what Trump has been demanding that they do.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm curious about long term precedent here. It's something that

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<v Speaker 2>comes up a lot when we talk about the way

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<v Speaker 2>that Trump is operating as president. Is it possible and

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<v Speaker 2>is it a concern that future US leaders, Republican or

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<v Speaker 2>Democrat could turn around and do the same thing to

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<v Speaker 2>their political opponents or use the DOJ to similar ends.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, I mean that's one of the concerns that has

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<v Speaker 3>been raised is that as Trump breaks down the walls

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<v Speaker 3>that have existed between the Justice Department and the White House,

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<v Speaker 3>he's setting a new precedent that any administration going forward

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<v Speaker 3>can use, and there's really nothing to stop that from happening,

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<v Speaker 3>short of either a public outcry that becomes so overwhelming

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<v Speaker 3>or congressional resistance. I think for Trump and his allies,

0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.360
<v Speaker 3>it's not even a matter of getting a conviction. It's

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<v Speaker 3>the process of indicting these individuals and forcing them to

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<v Speaker 3>have to get legal representation and go through court processes.

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<v Speaker 3>The process is the punishment, not just.

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<v Speaker 1>The process as the punishment, but also the message that

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<v Speaker 1>it sends to other people.

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<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg's senior national political reporter Nancy Cook.

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<v Speaker 1>Again, if you speak out, there is a hugorist that

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<v Speaker 1>will go after you. And I think that you're seeing

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<v Speaker 1>in Washington, DC a lot of self censorship, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>with like maybe lawyers not speaking out as much, or

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<v Speaker 1>former Trump officials who were very vocal and on TV

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<v Speaker 1>a lot going quieter. And so I do think that

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's the message that you know, you just keep

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<v Speaker 1>it to yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>In late September, Trump was asked who was next on

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<v Speaker 2>his list after the Coomy indictment, and he said he

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<v Speaker 2>isn't done, not a list, but I think there'll be others.

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<v Speaker 2>The next wave of indictments could come as soon as January,

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<v Speaker 2>when a federal grand jury convenes in Florida. The Trump's

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<v Speaker 2>allies expect will investigate what they believe has been a

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<v Speaker 2>long running conspiracy by former government officials to undermine Trump.

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<v Speaker 3>Trump has even said that the Justice Department needs to

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<v Speaker 3>take a look at Mayork Garland, Chris Ray, Lisa Monico,

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<v Speaker 3>Jack Smith. These were all the key officials in charge

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<v Speaker 3>of investigations that were against Trump. So that's the next

0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:14.200
<v Speaker 3>phase of the retribution campaign that I'm really paying attention

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<v Speaker 3>to right now in which individuals will get swept up

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<v Speaker 3>into that.

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<v Speaker 1>And also you have to keep in mind we're only

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<v Speaker 1>in year one of his four years second term, so

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<v Speaker 1>it's very unclear to me what does the Justice Department

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<v Speaker 1>look like at the end of.

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<v Speaker 2>This This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm

0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Sarah Holder. To get more from The Big Take and

0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:43.040
<v Speaker 2>unlimited access to all of Bloomberg dot com, subscribe today

0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:47.000
<v Speaker 2>at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast offer. If you liked

0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:49.600
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<v Speaker 2>Take wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps people find

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<v Speaker 2>the show. Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.