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Speaker 1: This is Tom Rowland's Reese, and you're listening to Switched

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Speaker 1: on the podcast brought to you by B and EF.

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Speaker 1: After the Fukushima incident of twenty eleven, attitudes towards nuclear

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Speaker 1: power as a secure energy source shifted, with some nations

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Speaker 1: such as Germany, accelerating the phase out of its nuclear fleet,

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Speaker 1: while the US increased regulations Once in nuclear energy heavyweight,

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Speaker 1: the US has seen construction of nuclear plants slow to

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Speaker 1: a crawl. The country has fallen far behind Russia and

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Speaker 1: China in terms of its technology and equipment being used

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Speaker 1: for nuclear power builds around the world. The Trump administration

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Speaker 1: has made no secret of its desire to change this,

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Speaker 1: and last month issued four executive orders that seek to

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Speaker 1: reinvigorate the US's domestic nuclear power fleet. But is this

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Speaker 1: policy push enough to stimulate a risk averse private sector

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Speaker 1: and what forms of nuclear technology are North American companies

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Speaker 1: looking at today? I am joined by B and EF's

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Speaker 1: lead nuclear analyst, Kris Kodoonsky, and we discussed findings from

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Speaker 1: his note, Trump pushes nuclear, but market pull is uncertain.

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Speaker 1: Which B and EF plants can find at BNEF go

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Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg terminal or on BNF dot com. All right,

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Speaker 1: let's get to talk about the future of US nuclear

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Speaker 1: energy with Chris.

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Speaker 2: Chris, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Tom, it's a pleasure to be back. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was just going to say, it doesn't feel like

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Speaker 1: it was that long ago that we had you on

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Speaker 1: the podcast.

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Speaker 2: So why are we speaking today.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of excitement about nuclear power in

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Speaker 3: the media, among governments and larger organizations institutions, and that

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Speaker 3: has been triggered most recently by the May twenty third

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Speaker 3: signing by President Trump of four Executive Orders. And the

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Speaker 3: four executive Orders are taking aim at some of the

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Speaker 3: fundamental issues and problems that has led to the US

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Speaker 3: becoming a laggard in nuclear energy construction around the world.

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Speaker 3: And so I'll be very very curious to see what

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Speaker 3: transpires and how the executive orders will be able to

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Speaker 3: work and coexist with Everetts by DOGE to sort of

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Speaker 3: cut the government workforce and create an environment where the

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Speaker 3: private sector will rally behind what is left of government

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Speaker 3: funding to support this to go ahead and build out

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Speaker 3: nuclear power in the country.

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Speaker 1: So you recently published a report on this, and the

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Speaker 1: title of the report Trump pushes nuclear but market poll

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Speaker 1: is uncertain, which kind of tells maybe, I mean gives

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Speaker 1: in a nutshell where you stand on this. I think

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Speaker 1: it was interesting, and you know, when it comes to Chris,

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Speaker 1: I'm not just a fan who has come lately. I'm

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Speaker 1: familiar with your entire back catalog, so I know that

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Speaker 1: in December twenty twenty four you also published a piece

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Speaker 1: called US Nuclear Goals in the Cards or just an Illusion,

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Speaker 1: which was in reference to some targets put in place

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Speaker 1: by the Biden administration. And I also remember that in

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Speaker 1: May twenty twenty you published a piece I've got all

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Speaker 1: the receipts here called Trump Administration Aims to make Nuclear

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Speaker 1: Greats Again, which, unlike those other two titles, doesn't at

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Speaker 1: a slight skepticism on your part on the gap between

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Speaker 1: ambitions and reality. But I'm just going to read from

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Speaker 1: the executive's summary, and this is again from May twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: The US nuclear industry has ceded global leadership to Russia

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Speaker 1: and China, as evidenced by the underwhelming presence of US

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Speaker 1: vendors participating in global markets. Be in the f questions

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Speaker 1: whether the appropriate strategic elements in place in the nfwg's plan. NFWG,

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Speaker 1: by the way, Sorry's Nuclear Fuel Working Group will materialize

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Speaker 1: to US re establish the US as a contender without

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Speaker 1: bipartisan support and appropriate funding. The nfwg's policy goals represent

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Speaker 1: wishful thinking rather than an executable objectives to restore global leadership.

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Speaker 1: So again, although it was in the title definitely have

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Speaker 1: your and I say this, you're someone who is I

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Speaker 1: think it's fair to say pro nuclear.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that you are.

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Speaker 1: Just saying this because you are not in favor of nuclear,

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Speaker 1: but you, I think appreciate the challenges and how far

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Speaker 1: behind the US is. So I suppose over the years

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Speaker 1: we've seen that sort of skepticism on your part. The

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Speaker 1: thing that's interesting though, is now when we look at

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Speaker 1: this sort of the pattern is Trump administration Mark one

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Speaker 1: was pro nuclear. The Biden administration for the most part

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Speaker 1: was kind of most of its time, I would say,

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Speaker 1: slightly neutral. It had those tax credits in the IRA

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Speaker 1: to support nuclear if the economics weren't working out. But

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Speaker 1: then right at the end there was this ambitious set

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Speaker 1: of goals set out for nuclear and then of Trump

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Speaker 1: has come back in and he has come out as

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Speaker 1: being very pro nuclear with these executive orders. So we're

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Speaker 1: starting to see actually a little bit of bipartisanship emerging

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Speaker 1: around nuclear. And yet you're still a bit skeptical maybe

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Speaker 1: about how challenging this is and whether that challenge is

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Speaker 1: fully appreciated.

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Speaker 2: Is that fair?

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Speaker 1: I am I being fair to your read on this

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Speaker 1: whole space.

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Speaker 3: I think it's absolutely correct, and maybe an anecdote can

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Speaker 3: illustrate the reasons for my skepticism. Back in twenty ten

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Speaker 3: or twenty eleven, before the fu Kushimi event, we had

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Speaker 3: a conversation with an SMR developer in the US and

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Speaker 3: with the Russians, and the conversation in twenty ten went

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Speaker 3: like this. The Russians said, we're going to have a

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Speaker 3: SMR operating north the Arctic Circle by twenty twenty, and

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Speaker 3: the US SMR developer said, well, we will have a

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Speaker 3: SMR operating in the US by twenty twenty. Come twenty twenty,

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Speaker 3: what has happened is that the Russians are operating in

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Speaker 3: SMR north of the Arctic Circle in a floating nuclear

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Speaker 3: power plant, a tremendous innovation that has implications for global

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Speaker 3: markets in South Asia and in Pacific region, and the

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Speaker 3: US development looks like, well, we might be likely if

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Speaker 3: we have something by twenty thirty. So I'm trying to

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Speaker 3: look and say, well, what has happened to the US

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Speaker 3: industry why we can't deliver where you look at the

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Speaker 3: Russians and they are very very aggressive in delivering SMRs

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Speaker 3: in remote places, and they're leading global construction, and so

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Speaker 3: I sort of am and wondering what it is that

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Speaker 3: has handicapped the US industry so we can't build, And

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Speaker 3: there are a whole slew of reasons for doing so.

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Speaker 3: But that's why I remain skeptical, because what's really really

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Speaker 3: important is not so much policy push but market pull.

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Speaker 3: Then I use the analogy of pushing a string as

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Speaker 3: opposed to pulling a string, And so if we had

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Speaker 3: a lot of market pull, if you until the executives

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Speaker 3: stood up, raises hands says, I want a nuclear reactor

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Speaker 3: that's a very very strong single and we're starting to

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Speaker 3: see that from the hyperscalers because they are facing tremendous

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Speaker 3: demands for electricity to power their data centers.

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Speaker 1: I want us to explore this idea of market pull,

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Speaker 1: and we'll get to it in de course. And also

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Speaker 1: I think we just a moment, will we'll dive into

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Speaker 1: some of the reasons or your assessment of the reasons

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Speaker 1: why the US has sort of fallen behind in this race.

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Speaker 1: One thing I meant to mention, for those of you

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Speaker 1: who are not familiar with the term SMO that sounds

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Speaker 1: for small modular reactor. It's a next generation nuclear reactor,

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Speaker 1: and as the names just, it's significantly smaller than a

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Speaker 1: conventional nuclear actor and therefore is less restricted by where

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Speaker 1: it can be deployed. Before we dive into the reasons

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Speaker 1: why we think that nuclear progress in the US has

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Speaker 1: fallen so far behind, I think that you actually, and

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Speaker 1: you laid it out really well in the note you

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Speaker 1: recently published the number of reactors under construction worldwide by

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Speaker 1: the country, not of where they're being constructed, but by

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Speaker 1: where the technology comes from. It paints a very stark picture.

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Speaker 1: Can you just really illustrate your point talk us through

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Speaker 1: that very quickly.

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Speaker 3: So, the country in which the greatest construction effort is

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Speaker 3: going on as China, something like twenty eight twenty nine reactors.

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Speaker 3: Of those twenty eight twenty nine reactors for those reactors

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Speaker 3: are being built by the Russians. Russia is only building

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Speaker 3: four reactors in its own country, but it's also building

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Speaker 3: four reactors in Turkey, four reactors in Egypt, two reactors

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Speaker 3: in Bangladesh, and four reactors in India. So that brings

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Speaker 3: Russia to a total amount of twenty six reactors under

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Speaker 3: construction that are Russian designs, and if you compare that

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Speaker 3: to the US, there are no nuclear reactors under construction

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Speaker 3: of US design. Now there's an issue here is that

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Speaker 3: China is building several CAP one thousands. CAP one thousands

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Speaker 3: are the Chinese version of the AP one thousand that

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Speaker 3: is a Westinghouse or US design. Westinghouse will argue that

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Speaker 3: is they're part of their design, but we look at

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Speaker 3: the components are eighty percent manufactured in China. There are

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Speaker 3: certain other modifications and changes that they've done, so we

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Speaker 3: characterize that perhaps incorrectly, but I think realistically as as

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Speaker 3: a reactor of Chinese design as opposed to US design,

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Speaker 3: that will be a debatable point.

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Speaker 1: It's a debatable point, but you know, whatever the actual answer,

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Speaker 1: and I think there's not a right or wrong answer.

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Speaker 1: You know, the picture that emerges is very clear. China

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Speaker 1: is the biggest market for nuclear power and a significant

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Speaker 1: proportion of that is being served by Chinese supply chain,

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Speaker 1: Chinese developers, and so this puts, like with so many

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Speaker 1: other markets, China in a good position in the future

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Speaker 1: to be an exporter of that expertise and know how.

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Speaker 1: Russia is currently the world's leading exporter of that expertise

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Speaker 1: and know how. And the US neither has a thriving

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Speaker 1: domestic market like China which would be a platform to

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Speaker 1: become an exporter, and it is certainly not an exporter today.

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Speaker 1: So this is a pretty clear picture and it's hard

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Speaker 1: to argue with it. So before we talk about how

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Speaker 1: these executive orders might try and address some of this,

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Speaker 1: before we talk about the demand pool, what in your

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Speaker 1: view has gone wrong here, Like if we go back

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Speaker 1: to when you were having that conversation in twenty ten,

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Speaker 1: where there was ambitions around small modular reactors, for example,

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Speaker 1: at that point in time, maybe already the US was

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Speaker 1: being to lag, but at least people to be making

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Speaker 1: the claims that have a smaller modul reactor. By twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: there must have been stakeholders in the US who felt

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Speaker 1: the US was in the race, you know, And since

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Speaker 1: then the US are so comprehensively lost.

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Speaker 2: So what has gone wrong?

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Speaker 3: Well, let me clarify a few things. I'm there the nuances.

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Speaker 3: Nuance is a very good word to use with regards

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Speaker 3: to the discussion of the nuclear power industry as far

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Speaker 3: as development of advanced reactors, by far in the way,

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Speaker 3: the US is in first place. We have a whole

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Speaker 3: slew of advanced reactive technologies that are being developed by

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Speaker 3: a wide variety of companies. However, we haven't gotten to

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Speaker 3: the point where we are licensing them or building them,

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Speaker 3: and that are two necessary steps. And licensing is a

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Speaker 3: very challenging process to undergo in the US, and it's

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Speaker 3: one of the executive orders that Trump signed on May

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Speaker 3: twenty third was to address NRC reform and but doing

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Speaker 3: so it will help speed up the process and reduce

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Speaker 3: the risk of these nuclear technologies. We're all new innovative technologies,

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Speaker 3: most of them coming across the finish line getting licensed

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Speaker 3: and then get it constructed and built. So I don't

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Speaker 3: want to paint a picture that there's no nuclear leadership

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Speaker 3: in the US. There's nuclear leadership as far as developing

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Speaker 3: new technologies, but we are certainly laggards in actually building

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Speaker 3: UCAR power plants. We have no nuclear reactors under construction

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Speaker 3: in North America, never mind in the US all lot.

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Speaker 1: So I suppose maybe a more nuanced picture that we

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Speaker 1: could paint is, when it comes to what is happening

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Speaker 1: right now, the US has fallen behind in terms of

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Speaker 1: the deployment of nuclear technologies, and a lot of what

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Speaker 1: we've spoken about in terms of those figures refers to

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Speaker 1: conventional nuclear technologies where Russia is the global exporter of

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Speaker 1: China is the biggest market, and so the US's hopes

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Speaker 1: of establishing leadership globally in this space do not hinge

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Speaker 1: on I guess what you'd call say, catching up in

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Speaker 1: that area. It is making sure that this other great

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Speaker 1: hope of these next generation of technologies is that the

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Speaker 1: US doesn't get in its own way of winning that race,

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Speaker 1: which it is well positioned to win.

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Speaker 2: Is that maybe the.

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Speaker 1: Nuanced take of what the picture currently looks like, and

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Speaker 1: maybe what these executive orders are aiming to address is,

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Speaker 1: let's ensure that the US can capitalize on this sort

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Speaker 1: of new generation of technologies that it has led the

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Speaker 1: way in developing.

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Speaker 3: A fundamental first step is building advanced reactors in the US,

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Speaker 3: whether or not on military basis, on federal land or

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Speaker 3: by utilities or with hyperscalar demand pull to go ahead

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Speaker 3: and do that. That's the first step. Once we start

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Speaker 3: building nuclear reactors in the US, we can expect interest

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Speaker 3: from other markets overseas to follow, and that makes a

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Speaker 3: lot of sense. There are a couple of proposals right

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Speaker 3: now to build reactors in Eastern Europe that have not

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Speaker 3: been built in the US, and to me, that strikes

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Speaker 3: me as a very risky proposition for the new host

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Speaker 3: country to consider a technology that has yet to be

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Speaker 3: built in the US. And I think that.

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Speaker 2: And these are American technologies.

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Speaker 3: American technologies or so, and we're starting to see some progress.

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Speaker 3: The most exciting development is the General Electric Kitachi nuclear

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Speaker 3: power plant that's going to be built in Ontario, Canada

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Speaker 3: by Ontario Power Generation. They're going to be four units.

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Speaker 3: Four days before the executive orders were signed by President Trump,

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Speaker 3: the Tennessee Value Authority, with large government utility has also

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Speaker 3: decided to submit a construction permit for several of the

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Speaker 3: same reactors. And that's a very very important key is

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Speaker 3: that the key too mass deployment of these nuclear reactors

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Speaker 3: is having a significant project pipeline. It's very hard for

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Speaker 3: a developer or a vendor of a nuclear power plan

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Speaker 3: to say, give me a couple of billion dollars and

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Speaker 3: I'll build your reactor. It's a much easier line, and

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Speaker 3: the financial community is much more receptive. It says, give

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Speaker 3: me a couple of billion dollars to build a factory

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Speaker 3: with which I can manufacture ten to twenty reactors, and

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Speaker 3: here's the project pipeline I have. So General Electric Hitachi,

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Speaker 3: for example, has four projects now underway, at least in Canada,

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Speaker 3: more in Alberta and Saskatchewan. For in the US at

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Speaker 3: the Tennessee Value Authority, some perhaps in Estonia too. The

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Speaker 3: General Electric Attachi maybe was a contender for the Great

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Speaker 3: British Nuclear Program, although Rolls Royce has seemed to have

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Speaker 3: succeeded in taking being nominated first. But that doesn't preclude

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Speaker 3: General Electric Katachi for participating in that market. And if

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Speaker 3: I was the UK policy makers, I've sort of divide

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Speaker 3: allocate eighty twenty percent, give eighty percent to the SMR

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Speaker 3: of Rolls Royce Company and twenty percent to General Electric

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Speaker 3: Tiktaci to create some tension in the marketplace so that

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Speaker 3: there'll be some cost considerations and that if Rolls Royce

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Speaker 3: is too expensive, we have another operation. And finally, in Poland,

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Speaker 3: they have talked about building twenty four of these general

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Speaker 3: electric katachis. That's a pretty long project pipeline, and they

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Speaker 3: can make the long term investment necessary to get from

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Speaker 3: a first of a kind cost to end of a

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Speaker 3: kind cost as quickly as possible. That's the secret to

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Speaker 3: getting a widespread deployment of nuclear power.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, that's really interesting.

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Speaker 1: So Poland is potentially a key market for next generation

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Speaker 1: technologies because they've they've put in place dot ambition, not

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Speaker 1: just in terms of a gig target, but specifically actual

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Speaker 1: projects under development for these technologies.

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Speaker 3: My cousins of Poland present a very complicated picture. They've

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Speaker 3: articulated that they have no nuclear power. And Poland is

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Speaker 3: the only country that built nuclear power plants and decommissioned

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Speaker 3: them without ever operating them in the wake of the

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Speaker 3: Chernobyl disaster. Now Poland has said we need six to

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Speaker 3: nine gigawatts of nuclear power to reduce our carbon footprint

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Speaker 3: because it's largely generating electricity through coal plants. That's very

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Speaker 3: very ambitious. There's three potential pathways that have surfaced right

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Speaker 3: now for them to do that. One, they've signed contracts

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Speaker 3: with the Westinghouse eight p one thousand for three reactors

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Speaker 3: or went to three reactors at a very very high cost.

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Speaker 3: They've also looked at the General Electric Katachi and looked

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Speaker 3: to build They've announced twenty four projects and finally the

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Speaker 3: Koreans wanted to get into the act as well, and

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Speaker 3: they're making proposals for a smaller one gigawatt version of

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Speaker 3: their reactor at another site. So you have three potential

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Speaker 3: solutions to Poland's nuclear ambitions. Perhaps two or three will

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Speaker 3: go through. But it's important to recognize that for Poland,

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Speaker 3: building large reactors that are manufactured in the US or

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Speaker 3: Korea does not necessarily solve all of their social and

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Speaker 3: political problems. You have a large percentage of the population

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Speaker 3: who is reliant on coal and a coal industry that

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Speaker 3: you're introducing technologies to reduce their participation in the Polish economy.

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Speaker 3: So the idea for Poland to sort of develop a

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Speaker 3: technology that they can build locally and create a knowledge

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Speaker 3: industry and industry where there is a lot of participation

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Speaker 3: from society to support the developing commercialation of lear power

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Speaker 3: is very very important. And if they can build a

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Speaker 3: lot of the components in Poland for the long term perspective,

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Speaker 3: that would be much healthier.

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Speaker 1: So with thinking about US technologies, this is maybe partly

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Speaker 1: the reason, one of the reasons why the plan is

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Speaker 1: so much more robust if it'll relies on the US

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Speaker 1: market first. So let's bring it back to the US.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're going to get to these executive orders

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Speaker 1: in a moment, so we painted this picture. US is

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Speaker 1: very well poised in terms of next generation technologies. Maybe,

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Speaker 1: and I say this because I read a lot of

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Speaker 1: your research. They're not going to be commercial as soon

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Speaker 1: as some might hope, but they are still you know,

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Speaker 1: one day, these next generation nuclear technology is going to

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Speaker 1: be very relevant, and the US is in the lead

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Speaker 1: on those, but has fallen behind when it comes to

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Speaker 1: conventional nuclear technology. And so this is the narrative I'm

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Speaker 1: going with is that, you know, maybe these executive orders

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Speaker 1: will help ensure the success of these new technologies by

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Speaker 1: removing roadblocks. And so I think it is still important

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Speaker 1: to understand why the US fell behind in conventional nuclear

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Speaker 1: technology because I'm presuming that some of the challenges faced

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Speaker 1: there could impact the next generation of nuclear technologies and

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Speaker 1: therefore why some of these challenges need to be addressed

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Speaker 1: by these executive orders. So why has the US fallen

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Speaker 1: behind in conventional nuclear technology if you.

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Speaker 3: Look over the last fifteen years. The Fukushima event in

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Speaker 3: twenty eleven in March of twenty eleven cast a poll

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Speaker 3: over the global nuclear power industries and infected countries in

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Speaker 3: different ways. Japan ended up reducing their fleet significantly, Germany

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Speaker 3: closed their entire fleet and closed them I get the

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Speaker 3: end of twenty twenty three or so, and in the

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Speaker 3: US we closed thirteen reactors for a variety of different purposes.

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Speaker 3: So you had this poll hanging over the industry globally.

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Speaker 3: In some countries were China and Russia paused but realized

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Speaker 3: that nuclear has a very big role to play in

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Speaker 3: their societies, and so they went forward and recovered more quickly.

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Speaker 3: In the US, we have a preference for renewables, and

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Speaker 3: we had some support for renewables, and so that has

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Speaker 3: been a priority in many many ways. And we also

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Speaker 3: had very cheap natural gas, and we also have very

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Speaker 3: high labor costs that made the prospect of building and

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Speaker 3: operating large new your power plants more problematic than it

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Speaker 3: was in other parts of the country. Remember this, Our

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Speaker 3: analysis suggests that to build a nuclear power plant in China,

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Speaker 3: they can do it for approximately one fifth cost that

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Speaker 3: it costs us to build the last two ap one

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Speaker 3: thousands in Georgia. That's a huge delta. So one can understand, well,

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Speaker 3: I can build reactors for one fifth of costs in China,

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Speaker 3: continued doing so, and so in this country where where

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Speaker 3: we have this high cost label attached to the nuclear

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Speaker 3: power and I don't think we'll go forward unless we

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Speaker 3: can somehow address that. And some of the executive orders

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Speaker 3: that Trump has signed may address some of those issues.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's let's get onto the main event. Then.

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Speaker 1: I think we've done a lot of contextualizing so far.

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Speaker 1: But we came here to talk about these executive orders.

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Speaker 1: So talk us through these executive orders and what they're

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Speaker 1: intended to accomplish, and you know your view on whether

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Speaker 1: they can accomplish those things.

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Speaker 3: We sign four nuclear executive orders and their aim is

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Speaker 3: to revitalize the nuclear energy industry. And some of the

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Speaker 3: issues that we have or the arguments that the Nuclear

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Speaker 3: Regulatory Commission, which is the gold standard of regulation of

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Speaker 3: nuclear power, has been too constraining to the society, and

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Speaker 3: so we're talking about perhaps let's think of a way

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Speaker 3: to make the process less expensive, less daunting to the

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Speaker 3: companies that are trying to run down that path and

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Speaker 3: accomplish that in say twenty four months, as opposed to

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Speaker 3: forty four months that has taken the less licensed application

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Speaker 3: to get approved. So that's a very very important thing.

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Speaker 3: And we're also talking about leveraging US Department of Energy

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Speaker 3: research laboratories to help speed speed that forward. And that

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Speaker 3: is something that we could also have. You have a

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Speaker 3: lot of resources available to sponsor and spur research and development.

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Speaker 3: We'll try to adjuss that. And we want to reinvigorate

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Speaker 3: the nuclear industrial base, and so Trump has said, let's

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Speaker 3: try to have ten new reactors under construction by twenty

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Speaker 3: third and he has set a target for four hundred

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Speaker 3: giga wats of capacity, adding an additional three hundred capacity

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Speaker 3: to the existing fleet by twenty to fifty. Those are

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Speaker 3: very very ambition plans, more ambitious than the preceding plan.

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Speaker 3: It's also important that we try to develop and supply

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Speaker 3: some of these nuclear power plants to support our military

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Speaker 3: basis and also to support the anticipated demand from hyperscalers

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Speaker 3: to power the data centers, which is in many ways

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Speaker 3: a national security issue. We've seen some progress already. There

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Speaker 3: was a discussion about Oklahm, one of the companies that

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Speaker 3: is developing an innovative advanced react to technology, was recently

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Speaker 3: given the go ahead to move forward for supplying electricity

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Speaker 3: very nuclear their five banguwatt reactor to a site Alsaid

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Speaker 3: Air Force Base in Alaska, and that has created a

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Speaker 3: tremendous amount of enthusiasm for the fact that perhaps the

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Speaker 3: environment created by releasing these executive orthors may speed up

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Speaker 3: the process for the commercialization of a lot of different

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Speaker 3: advanced reactors.

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Speaker 1: So there's this government push on various fronts to unlock

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Speaker 1: the potential of US nuclear And yet I know that

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Speaker 1: you as someone who maybe appreciates how challenging this is,

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Speaker 1: how long people have been trying, I still sense a

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Speaker 1: certain amount of skepticism. I mean, just you know, as

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Speaker 1: we said before, the title of your note was Trump

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Speaker 1: pushes nuclear, but market pull is uncertain. So the market

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Speaker 1: pull is a really important factor there. We can all

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Speaker 1: about the market pull in a moment, but why is

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Speaker 1: it that policy push is not enough? You use this

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Speaker 1: analogy of trying to push a piece of string. Can

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Speaker 1: we just explain a little bit more why why that

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be enough? Because in some areas policy push is enough,

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Speaker 1: but why not for nuclear.

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Speaker 3: So if you are a utility executive, the CEO of utility,

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Speaker 3: you're at the job for seven to eight years and

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Speaker 3: your compensation is largely based upon the performance of the

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Speaker 3: utility stock. And so you may a decision, an announcement

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Speaker 3: to the world that you are going to build a

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Speaker 3: large nuclear power plant. And because we don't have the

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Speaker 3: experience and the workflows and the workforce that the Chinese

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Speaker 3: have now in building that, Wall Street views this, Oh

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Speaker 3: my god, they're going to go and build a nuclear

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Speaker 3: power plant. Let's short the stock. Because the Wall Street's view,

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Speaker 3: at least some of the bankers that I talked to

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Speaker 3: on a regular basis, suggests that every project in the

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Speaker 3: US will be first of a kind project, as opposed

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Speaker 3: to down the pathway towards the end of a kind.

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Speaker 3: And that's the case that all the workers who were

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Speaker 3: assembled for the Westinghouse AP one thousand project in Georgia,

436
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Speaker 3: there's no second project. They're all dispersed, and so recreating

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Speaker 3: that workforce is going to be much more challenging. So

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Speaker 3: you're starting at a new site with a large percentage

439
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 3: of a new workforce, and it's not like a cooker

440
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 3: cutting approach like the Chinese. The Chinese will build six

441
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 3: reactors at the same site, so the workforce goes the

442
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 3: one reactor to the next reactor, the next reactor, and

443
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 3: each one becomes less and less expensive. And as a

444
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 3: result of that, they can build reactors in a short

445
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 3: period of time five years as opposed to ten years,

446
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 3: and for a one fifth of cost that we can

447
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 3: over there. So the utility executive is kind of saying, well,

448
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 3: I don't want to be the next nuclear power plant

449
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 3: builder because of the risks to the company by making

450
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 3: a decision to go ahead and do that. I happen

451
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 3: to have visited Saudi Arabia at a time when Saudi

452
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 3: Arabia was considering building nuclear power plants, and the reason

453
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 3: I visited Saudi Arabia was to understand which company in

454
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,479
Speaker 3: Saudi Arabia could be the host institution to do that,

455
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 3: and the only company that I have discovered in my

456
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,679
Speaker 3: travels there was Saudi Aramco. Saudis are still discussing building

457
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 3: nuclear power plants, but they always end up discussing them

458
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 3: without any firm plants. I'm moving forward. So utilities are

459
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 3: wary of the cost of building a nuclear power plant,

460
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 3: and so they're standing back and saying I prefer not

461
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 3: to be the next one to commit. Let's see if

462
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 3: some some of the estimates from the US government suggests

463
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 3: that maybe a thirty percent drop would be an appropriate

464
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,479
Speaker 3: estimate for a new nuclear power plant in the US.

465
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 3: That takes it from thirty four billion dollars to twenty

466
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 3: four billion dollars or so. That's a huge cost. The Koreans,

467
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 3: on the other hand, are suggesting that they can build

468
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 3: two large reactors in Czech Republic for eighteen nineteen billion dollars,

469
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 3: so still significantly less. But in the nuclear industry, price

470
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,239
Speaker 3: because of high interest rates inflation tend to rise, and

471
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 3: so very infrequently do you see a nuclear project in

472
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 3: the US or in Western Europe coming less than it's

473
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 3: forecast to the cost. It's always higher, and sometimes significantly higher.

474
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 3: The West has a terrible track record of building large

475
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 3: nuclear power plants. It's interesting the way you describe it.

476
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 3: You know that utilities would rather someone else goes first.

477
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 3: There's various idioms we could apply to that.

478
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,959
Speaker 1: One would be the US nuclear industry faces a bit

479
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: of a chicken and egg problem. I would prefer to

480
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 1: say that you need a critical of projects.

481
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 3: There are ideas circulating around where there should be some

482
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 3: sort of mechanism among US utilities to share risk and

483
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 3: perhaps to form consortiums so that you have access to

484
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 3: a project that's going through the construction phase, but you're

485
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 3: not on the hook for the entire cost for doing so,

486
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 3: and so by sharing that risk, you may have a

487
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 3: fifteen to twenty percent risk for the cost overrun. But

488
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 3: by doing so you start the process and perhaps the

489
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 3: third or fourth project you'll be able to have a

490
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 3: better higher confidence on what the cost will actually be.

491
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 3: And there's also mechanisms to isolate the cost of the

492
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 3: nuclear components from the construction cost, so you can offer

493
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 3: the utility a fixed cost contract for the reactor, pressure

494
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 3: vessel and associated nuclear commitment, and then put it on

495
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 3: the utility to manage the construction costs, so that you

496
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 3: have partially a fixed price contract and a construction contract

497
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 3: with the utility itself will manage and that will tend

498
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 3: to sort of take some of the risk way from

499
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 3: the large deployment risk that is slowing to US utilities

500
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 3: from buying Nuco. No Nuco's under construction in this country.

501
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really interesting this idea of the sort

502
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: of the high risks of project overruns, and so if

503
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: it relates to the project scale, it seems almost you know,

504
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: from what you're describing, that private sector will inherently struggle

505
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: to make this market happen. And you know, in the

506
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 1: US is it is the archetype of capitalism. It is

507
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: an inherently a country that relies on the private sector

508
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: for innovation and development, and maybe this technology, because of

509
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: the scale of involved, is not well suited to.

510
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:41,479
Speaker 2: Thrive in that environment.

511
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 1: Now, obviously, the next generation wave of technologies are not

512
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: so big in scale, which might mean that it's less challenging.

513
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: But there are private sector organizations that do have a

514
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: certain amount of scale that goes, you know, way beyond utilities.

515
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: We think of utilities as big, but tech companies they

516
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: are another proposition entirely. And you mentioned and already the

517
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: demand pull, and you mentioned hyperscalers. Do you think they

518
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: can help untangle this challenging puzzle? And they certainly have

519
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: incentives to do so with the need for power for

520
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: AI and how do the executive orders from Trump sort

521
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,239
Speaker 1: of enable those organizations to play a more leading role

522
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 1: in the development of nuclear in this country.

523
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 3: So before the Trump executive authors, there was a note

524
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 3: I wrote and I guess December and November of last

525
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 3: year reflecting the fact that Amazon had participated in a

526
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,479
Speaker 3: Series A or B or C investment in x Energy.

527
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 3: And there is also Google committed to purchase three hundred

528
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 3: gig ors the capacity of chirostud reactors. So you do

529
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 3: have hyperscalers, large data center companies coming in saying yes,

530
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 3: we have an interest in this technology and we're supportive

531
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 3: of that. But the question has to be is how

532
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 3: much money are they investing in the company itself versus

533
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 3: how much are they committing in a power purchase agreement

534
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 3: for that and so, or how strong is that commitment

535
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 3: and how quickly can the vendors mobilize the technology. Some

536
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 3: of these companies have yet to go through the licensing process,

537
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 3: so there's still licensing risk and construction risk for a

538
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 3: first of a kind. So the large hyperscalers are circling

539
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 3: the area looking where to place their bets, and we

540
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 3: see companies like Amazon being a leader in that effort,

541
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 3: and I would be curious to see how Meta, Microsoft

542
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 3: and Google will sort of follow in placing bets on

543
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 3: various nuclear companies.

544
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: It's so interesting because it's almost for those large tech companies,

545
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: it's the opposite challenge that say the utilities face. The

546
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: utilities don't want to go first, they don't want to

547
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: move too quickly. They want someone else to do the

548
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: work to bring the costs down. The problem that the

549
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: large tech companies face is they need power sooner rather

550
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: than later. Is this technology ready enough? And maybe they

551
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: are less averse to investing in first of a kind

552
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: and being the first mover on some of these But

553
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: actually there's some of these nuclear technology developers are not

554
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: far enough along in the development process and the process

555
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: of getting licensed to meet their needs. And so do

556
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: you think the executive orders could help address some of

557
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: that of that challenge?

558
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 3: Well, the executive officers address the NRC reform, they're creating

559
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 3: an environment that's uncertain with regards to the tax incentives

560
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 3: that are going to be available to the advanced nuclear

561
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 3: power industry. It's something that's in discussion right now even

562
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 3: as we sit here talking about nuclear power right now.

563
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: But I think the fundamental thing that the Executive Orders

564
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 3: done is giving government support to the industry, or vocalizing

565
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,479
Speaker 3: government support. How that can be monetized is very very

566
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 3: important issue. China and Russia are leading the commercialization of

567
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 3: nuclear power because they have very strong support from the

568
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 3: top The Russian government is very interested in nuclear, as

569
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 3: is the Chinese government in very interested in nuclear We

570
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: have not had a significant because of our nature, because

571
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 3: of our capitalist system, we tend to not have such

572
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 3: strong from the top down support. Perhaps this is an

573
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 3: opportunity through the Executive Orders to demonstrate that yes, we

574
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 3: have it, and we're starting to see some indication of that,

575
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 3: specifically with the rapid announcement of the fact that Oklow,

576
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 3: a project that has been languishing for two years, all

577
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 3: of a sudden has been announced that now they had

578
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 3: the go ahead there that one's selected. So the nukea

579
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: industry moves forward like molasses. Hopefully the Executive Orders will

580
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 3: create an environment where we move some of the uncertainty

581
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 3: and gives a clear path we're going forward. What's also helping,

582
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 3: quite frankly, is the fact that there's been such a

583
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: Definius demanded interest in large combined cycle turpins, that the

584
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 3: backlog for that is now extending to the point that

585
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 3: perhaps you may not be able to get a guest

586
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 3: turbine soon enough to meet your requirements. And so if

587
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 3: you can have a very fast track for an advanced reactor,

588
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 3: perhaps that might be an option that becomes increasingly more attractive,

589
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 3: even though the technical readiness is perhaps not there, and

590
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 3: the technical risk and the regulatory risk still.

591
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: I'm sort of reminded as we talk about this conversation

592
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: of that famous American movie, The Field of Dreams, which

593
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: originated the famous phrase, if you build it, they will come.

594
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 2: Have you seen that movie? Yes, so you know what

595
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,479
Speaker 2: I'm referring to. It's a good movie. You should check

596
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 2: it out if you don't know what I'm talking about.

597
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: So it seems like this US nuclear renaissance is a

598
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: bit of a dream right now.

599
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:25,479
Speaker 2: You know.

600
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: You look at what is possible, and it could be

601
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: so good for the power section in this country. It

602
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 1: could create jobs in the country, and so the government

603
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: is in this position of trying to build the right

604
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: environment within this framework. As we've mentioned, of a company

605
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: that is inherently driven by the private sector create the

606
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: right environment so that these projects, these technologies will come.

607
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: So I was saying, it reminds me of the field

608
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: of dreams. I'm left with this thought, if you build it,

609
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: they will come. Maybe that's what these executive orders are

610
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: part of. And again, this is not a partisan issue.

611
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: In quite the same way, the previous administration was also

612
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: very pro nuclear. It seems like successive US governments are

613
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to build the right environment

614
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: to allow the US to capsulize on the progress that

615
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,479
Speaker 1: has already made in the next generation of nuclear That

616
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: is my takeaway from all of this. Interesting to see

617
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: if you think that's a bad way of thinking of

618
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: it or does that make sense to you, Chris.

619
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 3: I think it makes a tremendous amount of sense. But

620
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 3: I'll introduce one final complicating factor. There are five pathways

621
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 3: to putting nuclear electrons on the grid. There's large reactors,

622
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 3: which is problematic in the US because of the big

623
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 3: deployment risk. There are small reactors that we see moving

624
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 3: forward in Canada and hopefully in the US. Then you

625
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 3: have advanced reactors, the reactors that offer some innovation and

626
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 3: a fast reactor, high temperature gas reactor a molten salt

627
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 3: reactor that are technologically different and perhaps won't be more

628
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 3: quest competitive and safer. And then you have the microreactors,

629
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 3: which are very small reactors can be deployed in the

630
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 3: back of a truck, and the lorry in an airplane yourself.

631
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 3: And finally, the biggest confusing factor perhaps is the advent

632
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 3: of fusion. Okay, so if you are looking to buy

633
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 3: nuclear electrons, there's a big shopping list, five different pathways,

634
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 3: different timelines, uncertain courts, different technical readiness lists, different types

635
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 3: of risks. So it's a very confusing landscape for the

636
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 3: utilities and hyperscalers to operate in right now. And it's

637
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 3: going to be fascinating to see which one of those

638
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 3: many many companies that are participating will cross the finish

639
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,720
Speaker 3: line generate reactors or respond to your field of dreams.

640
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: If we build it, they will come.

641
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: Well, you know, thinking of the field of dreams. You know,

642
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: in that movie for those you haven't seen it, Kevin

643
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: Costner builds a baseball field and a bunch of ghosts

644
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: of famous baseball players show up and start playing baseball.

645
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: I don't think the film ever addresses which of the

646
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: Ghosts one at baseball. But this is a little bit

647
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: like from Kevin Costner's point of view, it didn't matter

648
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: which of the ghosts one, but for the ghosts, presumably

649
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: as competitive baseball players, they wanted to have been the

650
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: one to win. So maybe the government here is Kevin Costner.

651
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 1: So long as somebody wins, that's a good outcome. And

652
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: for the ghosts, well, they've got to turn up to

653
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: the field of the dream and compete, but at least

654
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 1: they have an opportunity to compete. Chris, this has been,

655
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: as always a fascinating conversation. I hope that there's more

656
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: development so we have an excuse to bring you on

657
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: again because I always enjoy talking to you. But thank

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Speaker 1: you very much for joining us today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Tavi.

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Speaker 3: It's always the pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray

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Speaker 1: with production assistants from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg NIF is a

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Speaker 1: service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This

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Speaker 1: recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed, as investment,

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Speaker 1: a vice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to an

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00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: investment or other strategy Bloomberg ANNIF should not be considered

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Speaker 1: as information sufficient upon which to base an investment decision.

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Speaker 1: Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its affiliates makes

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Speaker 1: any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness

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Speaker 1: of the information contained in

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Speaker 2: This recording, and any liability as a result of this

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Speaker 2: recording is expressly disclaimed