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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephon

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Speaker 1: never told your prorection of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And we are back for the second part, which apparently

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Speaker 2: there's gonna be a third part because I I just

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Speaker 2: can't apparently keep things together of Christianity and the marginalized

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Speaker 2: people and specifically the queer communities and religious trauma. And honestly,

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Speaker 2: I should have expected this because when it comes to

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Speaker 2: attacks on both women and the queer community, it is

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Speaker 2: non stop and it continues every day. The rhetoric continues

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Speaker 2: every day. So yes, this is part two of now

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Speaker 2: what it's going to be the three part series. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: three part the way three parts of this episode of

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Speaker 2: the series that is elongated to being like a literal

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Speaker 2: season and a half.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I just wanted to make sure.

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Speaker 4: Yes, you're correct.

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Speaker 2: And I think at the by the end of this,

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Speaker 2: we need to replay the entire thing in one setting

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Speaker 2: so that it's actually connected and people are like, what

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Speaker 2: is what's happening?

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Speaker 3: We could make a playlist.

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Speaker 2: I think we need to make a playlist and maybe

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Speaker 2: do like a feature on the Saturdays to actually just

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Speaker 2: recover everything.

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Speaker 4: I think that might be a plan that we have

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Speaker 4: to have.

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Speaker 2: So for those of you who could not take this

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Speaker 2: type of sad conversation enough for the first time round,

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Speaker 2: we may have a replay through.

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Speaker 4: Because we are sadistic apparently.

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Speaker 3: No back to back to back, where to go?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 2: And speaking of as before content warning to all the

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Speaker 2: grossness and hatefulness that is tangled into this rhetoric and

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Speaker 2: behind the anti LGBTQ plus movement, and it includes assault,

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Speaker 2: sexual assault, sexual mental and physical ab use that will

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Speaker 2: be mentioned, all the practices and unfortunately we are starting

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Speaker 2: this episode where we left off all the part one

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Speaker 2: about how the organizations like Focus on the Family uses

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Speaker 2: because it didn't just use once upon a time and

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Speaker 2: is still using harmful practices like conversion therapy as a

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Speaker 2: part of their anti.

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Speaker 4: LGBTQIA plus tactics.

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Speaker 2: Oh, take a deep breath, everyone, take a deep breath.

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Speaker 2: Any because it's going to be a shorter episode. I

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Speaker 2: think because the way I wrote it, I say this

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Speaker 2: at the beginning knowing how many pages it is, but

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Speaker 2: who knows what this discussion brings. But because it is

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Speaker 2: a heavy topic. Conversion therapy in itself is so gross

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Speaker 2: and so traumatic that it is going to be just

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Speaker 2: specifically on that. So yeah, sorry, So let's talk about

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Speaker 2: the history of conversion therapy first and then we're going

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Speaker 2: to dive into what is happening today because we need

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Speaker 2: to be paying attention. So conversion therapy, when it comes

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Speaker 2: to the origins of conversion therapy, it is sad and

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Speaker 2: it is gruesome. The history of it is gross. So

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Speaker 2: what exactly is it. Here's what the HRC or the

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Speaker 2: Human Rights Center says.

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Speaker 4: Quote.

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Speaker 2: Reparative or conversion therapy is a dangerous practice that targets

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Speaker 2: LGBTQ plus youth and cease to change their sexual or

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Speaker 2: gender identities. So called conversion therapy, sometimes known as reparative therapy,

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Speaker 2: is a range of dangerous and discredited practices that falsely

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Speaker 2: claim to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity

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Speaker 2: or expression.

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Speaker 1: And here's a bit more detail from a research article

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Speaker 1: for ScienceDirect dot com.

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Speaker 3: Quote.

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Speaker 1: Religion based LGBTQA plus conversion practices frame all people as

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Speaker 1: potential heterosexuals whose gender aligns with their birth sex in

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Speaker 1: a CYS gender binary model of male and female sexes.

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Speaker 1: Deviation from this heterosexual cist gender social identity model is

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Speaker 1: cast as curable sexual brokenness. And it goes into a

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Speaker 1: deeper explanation, saying religion based lgbtqa plus conversion practices are

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Speaker 1: grounded in the pseudoscientific conviction that all people are born

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Speaker 1: with the potential to develop heterosexual attraction and identity with

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Speaker 1: a gender identity that accords with that assigned to them

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Speaker 1: at birth. Sis gender proponents of lgbtqa plus conversion practices

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Speaker 1: view lgbtqa plus people as suffering from sexual brokenness that

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Speaker 1: can be cured. This ideology of sexual brokenness usually conflates

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Speaker 1: and confuses differences between sexual orientation and gender identity, seeing

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Speaker 1: any diversity in these attributes as having a common atiology

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Speaker 1: and treatment. Full membership and participation in faith communities can

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Speaker 1: be dependent on lgbtqa plus people of faith committing to

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Speaker 1: chastity and seeking healing for their sexual brokenness. The ideology

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Speaker 1: that informs lgbtq A plus conversion practices thus posits that

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Speaker 1: lgbtq A plus subjectivity and spiritual belonging are incommensurable. This

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Speaker 1: has led to the development of cultures that promote and

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Speaker 1: engage in various practices directed at changing are suppressing lgbtqa

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Speaker 1: plus sexual orientation and gender identities.

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Speaker 2: Right, and as we're speaking from the study, they're quoting

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Speaker 2: things like sexual brokenness, like they're putting those in quotes

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Speaker 2: to let you know this is what they say. So

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Speaker 2: I wish you could see And because she's actually doing

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Speaker 2: the quotes wild fingers.

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Speaker 3: While she's reading this flat project, I get it.

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Speaker 2: You can see pause, but it's quite faint. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: no one knows what she's doing except for me.

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Speaker 4: I appreciate it. I appreciate it all.

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Speaker 2: But we just want to like firmly say, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of these things that we sound If it's sounds

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Speaker 2: like that sounds gross, how why would you say that?

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Speaker 2: Is probably quotes If we don't say that out loud, like,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna try to emphasize it because this is if

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Speaker 2: you know us, you know, this is not our language.

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Speaker 2: But then again, if AI decides it's still our words, oh.

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Speaker 4: We're in trouble.

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Speaker 2: Please know we are not in support of any of this. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I feel like we might have to put that at

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Speaker 2: the beginning and the end of every episode because of

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Speaker 2: AI changing our words around.

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Speaker 4: I'm kind of scared.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, that's a whole different episode. Of course, with this

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Speaker 2: type of unsanctioned and unethical practices as seen by the

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Speaker 2: medical community. It can be difficult to have one specific

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Speaker 2: term or definition. And when I say unethical and unsanctioned,

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Speaker 2: it has obviously been criticized and disavowed by much pretty

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Speaker 2: much all of the professional h organizations out there, So,

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Speaker 2: like the AMA, all of them have said this is

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Speaker 2: not correct. We don't believe this anymore, This does not work.

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Speaker 2: So according to a documentation from a twenty twenty UN

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Speaker 2: consultation on conversion therapy, it is difficult to define it

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Speaker 2: in a straightforward manner. The article says, it's quite difficult

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Speaker 2: to get a grip on what we call conversion therapy

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Speaker 2: or reparative therapy. There are many definitions. For example, quote

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Speaker 2: it is the pseudoscientific practice of trying to change in

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Speaker 2: individual sexual orientation from homosexual or bisexual to heterosexual using

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Speaker 2: psychological or spiritual interventions, in this case leaving out the

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Speaker 2: attempts of sub treatments to also eradicate a transgender identity.

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Speaker 2: An important reason why it's so difficult to define is

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Speaker 2: that we deal with a multitude of practices which are

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Speaker 2: not only offered in separate organizations that consider converting homosexuality

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Speaker 2: or transgender identity as their main aim, but also inside

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Speaker 2: the realm of churches and church services, where these practices

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Speaker 2: will be labeled or can be labeled as for example,

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Speaker 2: in exorcism that's end quotes a quote, healing ministry or

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Speaker 2: simply quote prayers and are predominantly seen as religious practices.

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Speaker 2: Another important reason for the difficulty of definition is the

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Speaker 2: constant change in how faith organizations label these practices themselves,

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Speaker 2: being very aware of the public concerns that these treatments

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Speaker 2: may raise. By doing so, they avoid being trapped in

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Speaker 2: a definition that renders their offered treatment or practices as harmful, unethical,

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Speaker 2: or potentially illegal from the perspective of law.

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Speaker 1: And Though this idea of changing or suppressing sexual orientation

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Speaker 1: and identity probably could be dated centuries ago, one of

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Speaker 1: the first recorded mentions of it was in eighteen ninety

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Speaker 1: nine by a German psychiatrist who claim to have turned

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Speaker 1: a gay man straight. According to the psychiatrists, he told

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Speaker 1: people at a hypnosis conference that all they needed was

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Speaker 1: forty five hypnosis sessions and a few trips to the brothel.

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Speaker 1: According to history, Through hypnosis, he claimed he had manipulated

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Speaker 1: the man's sexual impulses, diverting them from his interest in

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Speaker 1: men to a lasting desire for women.

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Speaker 3: Hmm. How much did he charge.

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Speaker 1: For these sessions anyway, and many credit this as the

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Speaker 1: start of the pseudoscience of conversion therapy. In the late

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century, doctors and psychiatrists looked at homosexuality as something

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Speaker 1: that needed and could be treated. It was like even

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Speaker 1: included in their manuals beliefs that causes of homosexuality could

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Speaker 1: be found in men's testicles, or that all humans were

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Speaker 1: born bisexual, that homosexuality was something that was conditioned, like

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Speaker 1: a lot of misunderstandings, right.

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Speaker 2: I will say so the whole like being born bisexual

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Speaker 2: theory was Freud. But he did not see that as

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Speaker 2: a disease. So give him credit for that for one thing.

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Speaker 2: We he did not see that as a disease, unlike

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Speaker 2: everybody else. And as we mentioned earlier, we were talking

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Speaker 2: about the way that the narrative changes and the definition changes.

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Speaker 2: Please keep that in mind because we're going to come

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Speaker 2: back to it and why that's important in this conversation

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Speaker 2: and all these types of theories that led us to

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Speaker 2: the early quote treatments and I'm putting quotes here because

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Speaker 2: we want to emphasize this is not true and was

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Speaker 2: a theory that was damaging and traumatizing, but it was

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Speaker 2: the early ideas and theories at the time. So quotes

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Speaker 2: here when I say treatments, and again a quote from

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Speaker 2: theistory dot com of some of the practices at the time.

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Speaker 3: Quote.

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Speaker 2: Some LGBTQ people were given electroconvulsive therapy, but others were

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Speaker 2: subjected to even more extreme techniques like lebotomies.

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Speaker 4: Other quote.

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Speaker 2: Treatments included shocks administered through electroys that were implanted directly

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Speaker 2: into the brain. Robert Gelbraith Heath, a psychiatrist in New

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Speaker 2: Orleans who pioneered the technique, used this form of brain stimulation,

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Speaker 2: along with higher process and heterosexual pornography to quote change

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Speaker 2: the sexual orientation of gay men. But though he contended

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Speaker 2: he was able to actually turn gay men straight, his

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Speaker 2: work has since been challenged and criticized for his methodology.

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Speaker 4: I would hope so.

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Speaker 2: An offshoot of these techniques was a version therapy, which

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Speaker 2: was founded on the premise that if LGBTQ people became

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Speaker 2: disgusted by homosexuality, they would no longer experience same sex desire.

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Speaker 2: Under medical supervision, people were given chemicals that made them

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Speaker 2: vomit when they, for example, looked at photos of their lovers.

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Speaker 2: Others were given electrical shocks, sometimes to their genitals while

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Speaker 2: they looked at gay pornography or cross dressed, which.

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Speaker 1: Just messed up, shall we say. And though this idea

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Speaker 1: was eventually dismissed and seen as cruel and traumatic by

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Speaker 1: the medical world, and with the psychiatric field removing homosexuality

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Speaker 1: from the DSM, which is a manual of say chiatric

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Speaker 1: disorders in nineteen seventy three, religious groups were reticent in

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Speaker 1: letting the practice go, and several organizers still practice it today.

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Speaker 1: Many religious organizations have rephrased the idea, calling it the

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Speaker 1: now known term of conversion therapy or reparative therapy, and

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Speaker 1: even just Christian counseling. Today, their methods vary, perhaps less

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Speaker 1: electroshock and lobotomies, but can include talk therapy, which you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of like healthy dose of guilt and

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Speaker 1: shame all the way up to extracisive. Here's the quote

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Speaker 1: from that history dot com article. At gay conversion camps

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Speaker 1: and conferences, LGBTQ people were isolated from family and friends, hypnotized,

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Speaker 1: told to pray until their homosexuality subsided, instructed to beat

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Speaker 1: effigies of their parents, mocked coach on proper gin roles,

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Speaker 1: and told their sexuality was unnatural and sinful.

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Speaker 2: Right, and by the way, that idea that everybody is

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Speaker 2: again born bisexual and then conditioned. That's kind of still

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Speaker 2: a belief in some of the religious organizations, except they

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Speaker 2: wouldn't say that out loud, except for the part that

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Speaker 2: are like, you know you can resist this, Yes, this

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Speaker 2: is sin just calling it that way.

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Speaker 4: So again, a.

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Speaker 2: Lot of the rhetoric is very religious, and we're going

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Speaker 2: to see that because any I read through more Christian

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Speaker 2: articles that I'm so sad.

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Speaker 3: I believe it, Samantha why.

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Speaker 2: But the saddest part is I could tell you word

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Speaker 2: for word why they said that what they did, and

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Speaker 2: I taught some.

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Speaker 4: Of those things, and I'm very sad about this.

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Speaker 2: But all that to say is you're going to see

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Speaker 2: this turn of phrase essentially to try to convince you

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Speaker 2: that this is not bad for you, that we're just

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Speaker 2: we're trying to impede on their freedom of speech anyway,

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Speaker 2: So statistically it does not work, and in fact, it

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Speaker 2: does the opposite, oftentimes doing more harm. And here's a

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Speaker 2: quote from the Science Direct study. Studies have shown heightened suicidality,

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Speaker 2: increased drug and alcohol use, increased risk of homelessness, poor

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Speaker 2: mental health, and poor economic participation among people who have

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Speaker 2: experienced conversion practices. Studies of young people who have experienced

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Speaker 2: conversion practices have shown negative impacts on identity formation and

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Speaker 2: family relationships. Note that many survivors of conversion therapy will

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Speaker 2: need treatment for post traumatic stress disorder and post religious trauma.

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Speaker 2: In a recent Australian study, Australian LGBTQ plus youth aged

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Speaker 2: fourteen to twenty one years who were exposed to conversion

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Speaker 2: practices were around four and a half times more likely

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Speaker 2: to have experienced homophobic, physical and verbal harassment than those

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Speaker 2: who did not, and three times more likely to have

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Speaker 2: experienced sexual harassment. They were also at least one and

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Speaker 2: a half times more likely to have a mental health

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Speaker 2: diagnosis and three times more likely to have PTSD diagnosis.

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Speaker 2: They were also at an increased risk of homelessness, particularly

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Speaker 2: on the basis of being LGBTQ plus. Note that the

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Speaker 2: trauma from religion based conversion practices, is distinct from and

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Speaker 2: compounds already established trauma related to heteronormativity, transphobia, and homophobia.

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Speaker 2: In addition to these harms, identified further negative impacts anger

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Speaker 2: as a response to deceptive claims and mistreatment, grief at

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Speaker 2: loss of times, opportunity and youth, increased sense of shame,

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Speaker 2: escalation of high risk sexual behavior, and impairment of self

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Speaker 2: concept due to hyatrogenic counseling practices.

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Speaker 3: YEP.

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Speaker 1: A statistical breakdown of the harms of conversion therapy from

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Speaker 1: glad dot org San Francisco State University found that, compared

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Speaker 1: with LGBTQ young people who were not rejected or were

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Speaker 1: only a little rejected by their parents and caregivers because

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Speaker 1: of their gay or transgender identity, highly rejected to LGBTQ

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Speaker 1: people were eight point four times more likely to report

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Speaker 1: having attempted suicide, five point nine times more likely to

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Speaker 1: report high levels of depression, three point four times more

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Speaker 1: likely to use illegal drugs, three point four times more

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Speaker 1: likely to be at high risk of HIV and STDs.

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Speaker 2: So now we want to make a distinction in that

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Speaker 2: not all religious organizations approve of this practice. The churches

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Speaker 2: we mentioned in part one of the specific episode would

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Speaker 2: be included in those who would be against this type

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Speaker 2: of therapy, and many of the most spoken out again

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Speaker 2: to reaffirm their position. As a topic is still being debated,

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Speaker 2: like I've found organizations that had actual statements on their size.

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Speaker 2: We do not condone this, and we think a ban

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Speaker 2: is necessary.

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Speaker 1: But there are many who oppose a complete ban on

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Speaker 1: conversion therapy, using the First Amendment as a basis on

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Speaker 1: why it should not be completely banned. Religious outlets argue

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Speaker 1: that these types of bands target Christian ministries. Here's a

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Speaker 1: quote from Premier Christianity. There is no doubt that Christian

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Speaker 1: pastoral ministry is being targeted by activists in this area.

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Speaker 1: All the evangelical organizations who have encouraged responding to the

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Speaker 1: consultation recognize this. This very real threat is why organizations

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Speaker 1: that have up to now been quiet on conversion therapy

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Speaker 1: are now suddenly speaking out about it. Pastoral ministry is

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Speaker 1: a private, consensual conversation, but activists want to criminalize pastoral

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Speaker 1: ministry for people struggling with sexual ur gender identity issues.

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Speaker 1: Prayer is also a for activists.

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Speaker 2: Right, So, as we talked about earlier, this is where

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Speaker 2: it's turning it and flipping it on a script, and

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Speaker 2: I think it's important that we pay attention. I hate

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Speaker 2: that I clicked onto this to look at this, and

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Speaker 2: my algorithm is a truly messed up from now on.

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Speaker 2: I'm so sad, but this is how the rhetorics are turning.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not saying prayer is a bad thing and

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Speaker 2: that no one should be praying. That has never been

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Speaker 2: a thing.

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Speaker 4: That is a never thing.

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Speaker 2: Have we talked about separation of state and church and state? Yes,

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Speaker 2: because even in the breakdown, like different denominations of a

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Speaker 2: specific religion are arguing with each other. So why the

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Speaker 2: hell are we going to allow for something when people

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Speaker 2: can't in that organization. I can't even agree with what

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Speaker 2: it is. But that's again a whole different side note

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Speaker 2: for me not to be too obvious, but can we

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Speaker 2: once again agree that this usage of First Amendment defense

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Speaker 2: seems to be really one sided as per usual, like

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Speaker 2: Florida education including colleges being stripped completely a factual information

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Speaker 2: for being divisive. But hey, I guess again, I keep

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Speaker 2: going on these sides because I'm just like, what it?

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Speaker 3: This is?

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Speaker 2: Why we say this is all connected? And this is

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Speaker 2: not just about one thing. This is not just about

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Speaker 2: the queer community once again, and this is the idea

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Speaker 2: that talk therapy is just Christian counseling. And don't get

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Speaker 2: me wrong, I'm not saying talk therapy is not a thing,

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Speaker 2: but what I'm talking about is it being manipulated. And

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Speaker 2: when it comes to unlicensed professionals try to make take

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Speaker 2: on mental health services and say that they are ordained

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't hurt.

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Speaker 4: Anything is very untrue.

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Speaker 2: And I say, this is a person who went through

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Speaker 2: Christian counseling by people who were not counselors, and I'm like,

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Speaker 2: what the hell is happening and being discharged after three

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Speaker 2: weeks of like, oh, you should be a counselor, ma'am. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: different times again. Please, for the love of Jesus, if

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Speaker 2: you want to know more about what we're talking about,

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Speaker 2: as we're talking about this whole mental health services slash

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Speaker 2: mentoring kind of can be said, please refer to our

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Speaker 2: Purity Culture and Religious Trauma episode because it's in depth.

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Speaker 4: Is traumatic, but it's very honest.

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Speaker 2: And here's one more quote that I've found disturbing from

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Speaker 2: that same article. Any government intervention to ban conversion therapy

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Speaker 2: will lead to a chilling effect on conversations or discussions

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Speaker 2: about sexual or gender identities. People will fear saying what

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Speaker 2: they really think. As it stands today, Christians are often

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Speaker 2: afraid to express their support of biblical sexual morality. They

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Speaker 2: avoid at talking about it, and sadly, churches often avoid

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Speaker 2: at preaching or teaching about it, even though it is

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Speaker 2: perhaps the biggest cultural change that the Church faces in

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Speaker 2: the UK in the present generation. A new law will

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Speaker 2: only exacerbate this problem and cause people to be even

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Speaker 2: more cautious about expressing Christian views on sexual morality. The

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Speaker 2: culture at large will also become more antagonistic towards Biblical

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Speaker 2: sexual morality and accuse people expressing an orthodox a position

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Speaker 2: of being pro conversion therapy or even of engaging in

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Speaker 2: conversion therapy. This chilling effect is harmful to the Gospel. Therefore,

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Speaker 2: any Christian should strongly oppose government intervention in conversion therapy

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Speaker 2: in principle. So oddly, they do want a separation of

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Speaker 2: church and state here, but not when it comes to

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Speaker 2: licensed therapy and professions, which, by the way, the Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court in the US struck down at one point in

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Speaker 2: time saying that professional people can have a right to

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Speaker 2: freedom of speech. That's a whole other conversation we're going

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Speaker 2: to come down to in a minute.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's it's different in the UK, and I know

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Speaker 2: we have people in the UK listening, so let me

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Speaker 2: know and this is true for them. But I haven't

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Speaker 2: seen many people in the country that feel quote afraid

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Speaker 2: to express their support of biblical sexual morality here, as

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Speaker 2: in fact it's the opposite. This level of hypocrisy makes

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Speaker 2: makes me want to throw things. Anny makes me want

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Speaker 2: to throw things. This is why I'm like, Okay, we're

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Speaker 2: only doing small We're only doing a small bit this time.

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Speaker 2: I feel like that's probably everything every time I say it.

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Speaker 2: But the conversation about the fact that Christians this is

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Speaker 2: that whole level of making sure Christians feel like they're

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Speaker 2: being persecuted so they have to fight harder and louder

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Speaker 2: to remember, sure, this is what the Bible told you

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Speaker 2: that they were going to come after us, and we're

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Speaker 2: being persecuted here, instead of talking about the fact that no,

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Speaker 2: we would never. The law is never like someone asking

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Speaker 2: questions was never the problem. It was literally holding people

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Speaker 2: down screaming in their faces and telling them if you

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Speaker 2: have sex with the opposite sex, then you'll be fine.

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Speaker 4: When rhetoric like.

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Speaker 2: Like even, but let's be real honest, what they want

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Speaker 2: to say is that there's a stark difference from the

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Speaker 2: old school when it's the old school like early late

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Speaker 2: nineteen hundreds and early nineteen hundred's method of a conversion

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Speaker 2: therapy to today's therapy is completely different, and that it's

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Speaker 2: not as dramatic and then nactuality it is, but in

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Speaker 2: a different level, especially to the young kids.

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Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, I mean, and like I know we've said

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Speaker 1: it in several of these religious episodes, but the idea

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Speaker 1: as a kid that you will go to hell, that's

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Speaker 1: it's traumatic. Like I don't know how else to tell you.

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Speaker 1: We can have a conversation. I do believe there are

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Speaker 1: pluses for positive spirituality religion, but for a lot of us,

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Speaker 1: it's raised in this kind of like Western Christian world

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Speaker 1: that is a traumatic thing in itself. And if what

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Speaker 1: is telling you is you have to go get this

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Speaker 1: really traumatic something is wrong with you and we're going

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Speaker 1: to have to fix you or else this eternal health

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Speaker 1: fire is what's waiting for you.

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Speaker 2: Right, and if you don't, and if you don't come

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Speaker 2: to us to help us fix you, then you're not

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Speaker 2: a part of our community, like both of those things,

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Speaker 2: and you're not going to be accepted by any of

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Speaker 2: the people, including your parents possibly. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: literally laws and policies are quickly following the this idea

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Speaker 2: of morality, and it has been changed very fast, like

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Speaker 2: white Christian nationalism has taken over. And we're watching, like

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Speaker 2: begging people to realize what's going on, and many of

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Speaker 2: us do, and there seems to be so little that.

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Speaker 4: We can do in the background.

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Speaker 2: And even worse, this is being used to oppress this law,

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Speaker 2: it's being used to oppress the marginalized. They're trying so

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Speaker 2: hard to convert like this whole conversation like we're the

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Speaker 2: minority here. No, no, actually they may be, but they've

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Speaker 2: got the most.

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Speaker 1: Power, right well, and that's one of them. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't have to tell you or anyone else. So

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Speaker 1: that's one of the most frustrating things about this whole

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Speaker 1: conversation to me, is like the hypocrisy of it.

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Speaker 3: It's just the like, oh, so.

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Speaker 1: You'll fix this person, which is essentially destroying a part

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Speaker 1: of them through trauma or like making them feel that

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Speaker 1: they have to cover it up or over.

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Speaker 4: To hell, or they have to hate themselves.

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Speaker 3: Are they up to hate themselves?

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Speaker 1: And you want to tell me all about how such

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Speaker 1: a loving religion and it's so about like not judging. Yeah, yeah, yep.

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Speaker 1: And here's another example of this flip we're talking about

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Speaker 1: and fear mongering from Christianity today. As the practice itself

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Speaker 1: has all but disappeared referring to conversion therapy, public campaigns

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Speaker 1: to ban it are growing around the world. Some Christians

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Speaker 1: worry that new regulations with poor definitions will take aim

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Speaker 1: at what the UK Evangelical Alliance calls everyday aspects of

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Speaker 1: church life. A new law in Victoria, Australia, for example,

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Speaker 1: will ban religious practices, including but not limited to, a

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Speaker 1: prayer based practice aimed at changing or suppressing the sexual orientation.

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Speaker 1: The government also says conversion therapy is illegal with or

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Speaker 1: without the person's consent. It is not yet clear how

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Speaker 1: the law, which goes into effect in February twenty twenty two,

440
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: will be applied, but it could criminalize praying for people

441
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: who ask for prayer. I'm so sorry, but just the

442
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: idea of somebody out there praying for me, like go.

443
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 4: Hopefully never had someone tell you that I have, but like.

444
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 3: The idea that someone's out there just.

445
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: Any my parents are praying for me to turn away

446
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 2: from a feminist ways. My mother, right, you think I'm

447
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: getting No, I don't, absolutely not. I don't think that

448
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: this is this is an active thing. I'm I'm sure

449
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: she has requested prayer in her.

450
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 4: Women's grap Yes, who are who?

451
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: I have friends of their kids they have prayed for

452
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: I know they have because I know that's.

453
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 4: What my mother would do.

454
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: That's what I was kind of laughing at though, is

455
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: that it's like money going to like a prayer group

456
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 1: and being like, it wouldn't be my mom in this case,

457
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 1: but I know someone it might be who was afraid

458
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: of my mom's who would be like, we gotta pray

459
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: for those girl and me never knowing it. I guess

460
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: there's something kind of comical about.

461
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 2: Here's the thing about this prayer and karma and good vibes.

462
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 2: All those things are great, and people believe that. I

463
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 2: believe in several days, I believe like there's a level

464
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 2: for me personally. But yeah, having like there's this like

465
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 2: moment of like, wait, to me, if I was a

466
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 2: prayer person, I would be praying for you. I'm just

467
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: more disgusted in trying to figure out why you're like

468
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 2: this as opposed to like, true, Yeah, it's literally h

469
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: have I'm pretty sure I can almost say pray for

470
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: Samantha she's lost her way and that she will find

471
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: it again, and that she would see God and find

472
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: the path, find the right path again, like guaranteed. Those

473
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: words are all up in that. And we also go

474
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: ahead and talk about the fact that it says they

475
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: really are harping on the idea of prayer and leaving

476
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: out the part about like praying, because what we see

477
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: when we talk about praying over people, and especially when

478
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: it was like the church I grew up in, it

479
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: was like they weren't violent, but there was a lot

480
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: of touching. There was a lot of loud noises, there

481
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 2: was a lot of screaming. Like I had friends who

482
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: would come to my church and would be scared.

483
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 4: During our prayer service.

484
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 2: So I mean, think about that, especially when they're like

485
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: trying to pray a demon out of you essentially.

486
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean it's just kind of a running joke,

487
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: like the whole thoughts and prayers is.

488
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, how effective has it been?

489
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 3: This is the bare minimum we can do, Like we're

490
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 3: praying for you? Cool? What else?

491
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 2: It does also remind me of like Saved in which

492
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: Manny Moore's characters like I'm filled, the goalie goes and

493
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: the slams, like throws the Bible in this girl's face

494
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 2: and it hit him in the face. I'm like, that's

495
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: the level of what I like, this is what we're

496
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: talking about. I'm like, yeah, let's not doing what you do.

497
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 2: Quit trying to twist.

498
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: This right, right, And and that is true, like it's

499
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: usually used because you can't like explain it.

500
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, well, I'm praying for you, okay.

501
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 4: Great, what else have you done for us?

502
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 3: Right?

503
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: And again this plays on the idea that the government

504
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: is trying to ban prayer to victimize Christians instead of

505
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: preticting LGBTQ plus youth. I think a lot of us

506
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: probably have experienced the anger at people saying like I

507
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: don't want to say and God, we trust in our

508
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: whatever government things.

509
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 3: And they're like, well they're punishing me right, well right.

510
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: The fact that when people want to take a knee

511
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,959
Speaker 2: during Yes like that or not want to say a

512
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: prayer like or not the Christian there were places that

513
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: would do the Christian pledge to like there's so many things, okay,

514
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 2: but it is this type of rhetoric or in rephrasing

515
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: that is allowing for practices like conversion therapy to try

516
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: to creep back into present day methods. And I honestly,

517
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: I don't know why I said the word creep, because

518
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: it's not creeping. They are doing it very openly and

519
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: we're seeing it. In fact, just recently, two councilors in

520
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 2: Florida were able to win a lawsuit stating that the

521
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: local conversion therapy band violated their First Amendment rights in

522
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 2: free speech. And this was April of twenty twenty three,

523
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: so literally a few months ago. Not a good sign.

524
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: Not a good sign. In twenty twenty there was a

525
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 2: ruling that granted a preliminary injunction to stop enforcing the

526
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 2: conversion ban in Florida, Georgia, and Alabama. Again, this is

527
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: based on the idea that it violates free speech. Here's

528
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: a quote from the Washington Post about it. In America,

529
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: twenty six states and the District of Columbia at least

530
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: partially banned using this damaging practice on minors. When Auto

531
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: and Hamilton's case was heard by the US Court of

532
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 2: Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit in twenty twenty, the court

533
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: decided that Auto and Hamilton suffered quote content based regulations

534
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: of speech. According to Judge Britt Grant, this case also

535
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: prompted the court to grant a preliminary injunction preventing the

536
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: enforcement of city and county wide conversion therapy bans in

537
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,719
Speaker 2: Florida as well as Alabama and Georgia. I feel like

538
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 2: that should be a real big ringer of what's happened

539
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: in the last few years and what they're ramping up to.

540
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 3: Yep.

541
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: And we also want to note that just because the

542
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: state may have banned the practice, it doesn't mean organizations

543
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: have adhered to it. In a twenty twenty one investigation

544
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: by Open Democracy, a woman went undercover and found counselors

545
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: in some of the banned states. Here's what they wrote

546
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: about it. The counselors were described as offering treatment for

547
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: homosexuality issues and gender identity issues on a US wide

548
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: list provided by Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian

549
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: group that is pursuing similar anti LGBTQ activities in Costa Rica,

550
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: where its Latin American office is located. Our investigation reveals,

551
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: in one instance, a counselor operating in Virginia told her

552
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: undercover reporter that LGBTQ people were unhealthy and that our

553
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: reporter should not eat until she reached the point of

554
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: seeing herself at the cross with Christ hanging, dying, bleeding,

555
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: because that's life changing. A counselor in Colorado promised to

556
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: treat unwanted same sex attraction, an expression frequently used to

557
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: disguise conversion therapy but rejected by LGBTQ plus communities. Leading

558
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: health and legal experts said that Open Democracy's findings were

559
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:08,439
Speaker 1: blatantly unethical and graphic examples of conversion therapy that broke

560
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 1: local laws and raised concerns about the effectiveness of existing

561
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: anti conversion therapy legislation.

562
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 2: Right and as we're talking about this, yeah, these examples

563
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 2: are not great. So take care of yourself, and the

564
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: report continues. In another investigation, our reporter, claiming to be

565
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 2: at age seventeen, had several online paid sessions with these

566
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 2: two practitioners who are operating in Virginia. And Colorado, two

567
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 2: of the twenty states who are offering conversion therapy to

568
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 2: minors is banned. Virginia and Colorado measures share the same

569
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 2: definition of conversion therapy any practice or treatment that seeks, attempts,

570
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: or purports to change in individual's sexual orientation or gender identity,

571
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 2: including efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions, or to

572
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: eliminate or reduce sexual, romantic attractions or feelings towards individuals

573
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: of the same gender. The first of the two professionals

574
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: told Open Democracy's reporter that he was currently based in Virginia,

575
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 2: although he was listed on the website as being in

576
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 2: another nearby state where these practices are not restricted. During

577
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 2: the first session, the therapist told our reporter that she

578
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: had to suppress homosexual desires, read the Bible, and stay

579
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 2: away from any Christian group that affirms gay sexuality. Quote

580
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 2: They're not going to tell you that your depression, your anxiety,

581
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: all that is not going to go away if you

582
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 2: pursue the gay lifestyle, he said. The therapist also described

583
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 2: LGBTQ communities as unhealthy, claiming that quote the suicide rate

584
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 2: is considerably higher than the national average. He continued, the

585
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 2: sexual assault rate, the crime rate, all that is higher,

586
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: the transmitted diseases, those numbers are higher in the gay community.

587
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 2: All those numbers are out there. Focus on the Family

588
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: has done those kinds of studies. The therapists also claimed

589
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 2: that in their lifetime, gay men have an average one

590
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: thousand partners and lesbians five hundred. Very succinct numbers, I

591
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: have to say so myself. Yeah, okay, And according to

592
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 2: Sex and the City, so do the heterosexual women.

593
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 3: To any like sitcom weekly sitcom?

594
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So obviously these are examples of what's happening.

595
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: And though the early articles from the Christian outlets imply

596
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 2: incarceration and loss of freedom for violating these bands, that's

597
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 2: actually not true. The repercussions aren't that harsh, and the

598
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: lawsuits actually maybe more damaging either way. So there's I

599
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 2: could not really find what the finds were. I think

600
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 2: for the most part, it's like malpractice suits and you

601
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 2: get a censure from your organization, and if you're a

602
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 2: religious organization, you may be fined, but you're not going

603
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 2: to jail. This is not a thing the and as

604
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 2: we see, organizations like Focus on the Family have made

605
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 2: a huge network as in fact, they do have I

606
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: think a network of like seven hundred counselors that does

607
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 2: just this type of work where they do the telehealth

608
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 2: type of thing to get around the bands or to

609
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 2: violate those bands. And we see that this level of

610
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 2: like guilt in condemnation is heavy, and that whole line

611
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 2: of like picture Jesus at the cross and use I

612
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 2: used that to teach kids to be guilty because I

613
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 2: had so much shame for so long for just existing.

614
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 2: And that's that level again, like being a different identity

615
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 2: and being born loving someone that people are saying you're

616
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: not supposed to. When I say loving someone, I'm talking

617
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,399
Speaker 2: about age appropriate consent. Don't want to hear anything from NAMBLA,

618
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 2: but like all those things like and being told, oh,

619
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 2: if you don't if you live by like that, that

620
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 2: means you don't love Jesus or this thing who did

621
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: all the huge things, which by the way, again were

622
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: done by hypocritical religious people as a reminder.

623
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,720
Speaker 3: But they don't want to remember that or whatever.

624
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:15,919
Speaker 2: And we didn't really kind of talk about the fact

625
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 2: that there is a network like this for other types

626
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: of religious organizations like Catholics very heavily into this as well.

627
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: Some Jewish organizations are heavily into this as well. We've

628
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 2: seen all around the world where they have been influenced

629
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 2: by this, and the persecution of the queer community is

630
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 2: intense and probably follow along the nineteen fifties type of

631
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: methods of conversion therapy, which you know some countries have

632
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 2: finally caught on and banned entirely.

633
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 3: So yeay, But.

634
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 2: Again, if it wasn't clear, these bands are in place

635
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 2: for people under the age of eighteen. So right now

636
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 2: what we're talking about is conversion therapy be ban for youths,

637
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 2: which I don't know, it should be easy to follow

638
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: if you're in Florida, as we're not supposed to be

639
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: talking about gender or sexual orientation at all, But yet

640
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 2: it's not banned there as in fact, you know, they

641
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,720
Speaker 2: turned that over so interesting again.

642
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Also, ageists just want to put in there because

643
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: the assumption is that by a certain age you'll know

644
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: not true.

645
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 2: I think it's the idea is that they don't want

646
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 2: to like it should be banned altogether, but for so

647
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 2: pretty young because like parents are like physically pushing them

648
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: into those types of things.

649
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 4: And then the whole camps that we've seen but it

650
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 4: is right.

651
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, both could be true.

652
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: And this is something that will continue to be challenged

653
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: the most extremist rhetoric continues. We can guarantee other lawsuits

654
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 2: will follow. So I know in twenty twenty, we had

655
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,959
Speaker 2: a lawsuit in both DC and I thinking a little

656
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: earlier in California, which were overturned because they were trying

657
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 2: to say again free speech. But both DC and California said,

658
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 2: based on the whole county and city markers that they

659
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 2: can control how businesses are run and how professionalism.

660
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 4: Is run, which is true.

661
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 2: But yeah, this is definitely going on a national level again,

662
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,399
Speaker 2: and we should definitely watch it because this has been

663
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 2: in play for years. Like some of these articles we

664
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: talked about where they were fighting this obviously earlier than

665
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. Some of them were in twenty seventeen,

666
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,919
Speaker 2: some of them were twenty fifteen, And there's tons being

667
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: released now talking about this is going. This is literally

668
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 2: persecution of Christians. That's what they're trying to say.

669
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 1: Right, And I do want to add in here I

670
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: find it kind of humorous slash very insulting, slash terrible,

671
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: but kind of humorous that I feel like the why

672
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: they try to tell is that this is like the

673
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: natural thing, this is how it should be. But what

674
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: they really mean is we want white Christians to have

675
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: babies in this very certain sense, because I find it

676
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 1: really funny as an asexual person where I'm like, I

677
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 1: don't want to have sex. That seems to be kind

678
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: of your message, and they're like, no, you need to

679
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: have sex and have a baby with a man.

680
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 3: But you told me that sex is bad.

681
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: You've been telling me this whole time, and they're like, no,

682
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: wait a minute, only this one kind is really good

683
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,479
Speaker 1: and actually Christian, you need to be doing that thing.

684
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's just kind of like.

685
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:55,439
Speaker 2: Hm, right, yeah, and definitely like the result of like

686
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 2: being gay, the opposite of being gay is having heterosexual sex.

687
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,399
Speaker 2: And there was definitely there were examples, and I didn't

688
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 2: read that this is what I was telling Annie. I

689
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: was like, it's gonna be this short because and it

690
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 2: ended up not being short, of course, but they're going

691
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: to be shorter because I couldn't go through all the

692
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 2: stories because I would say stories about men and women

693
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 2: being told if you come over, we're gonna do exorcism

694
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 2: and I'll show you why this is pleasurable, essentially trying

695
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 2: to have sex with them to convert them. And that

696
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 2: is you would think that was from the nineteen fifties. No,

697
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 2: that's happening today. And as we know, as we see

698
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 2: more and more people in the ministry doing some very

699
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 2: suss things, this is right up the alley. Again, not

700
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 2: saying that all the people that are in the ministry

701
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 2: or who are doing this are abusers. That's not what

702
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 2: we're saying, but we're saying that this tactic is still

703
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: happening today, right.

704
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,359
Speaker 1: And I was talking with you about when I first,

705
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: like early days, when I first was like, you know, hey,

706
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: I think I'm a sexual. Somebody wrote in and was

707
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: very kind, but she was like, I kind of find

708
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: it hurtful that you identify this way, but you don't

709
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: use the A in the LGBT because we're often ignored

710
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: and we've already done episodes on that. There's a lot

711
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: of like complications with that whole thing, and there's definitely

712
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 1: problems with it. I was not offended. I got where

713
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: she was coming from, but she she brought up like

714
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 1: have you heard of corrective rape? And someone else recently

715
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: brought that up with me, which is a thing which

716
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: is similar to what you're talking about, where it's like

717
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: essentially we're going to rape you, right and that will

718
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: fix you.

719
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 4: Right.

720
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's it's really gross and it's it's happening now.

721
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 1: It is not something from the past, right. Yes, Yes,

722
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: we still have more to talk about. We still have

723
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: more to talk about. Yes, there will be a part

724
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: three to this mini series already it's like a subpart

725
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: or just branching.

726
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 4: Yes, it's growing, is having his own babies.

727
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 3: It is y. There we go.

728
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: But that's what we have to say for now. So listeners,

729
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 1: if you have any thoughts about this, you can email us.

730
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: Our email is Stepania mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.

731
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at most up Podcasts,

732
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I've Never told you.

733
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: We do have a tea public store with some merchandise.

734
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:35,919
Speaker 1: We also have a book that you can pre order

735
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 1: in audio form or physical form at stuff you Should

736
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: Read Books dot com. It is coming out within the

737
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: month this of August twenty twenty three. So thanks as

738
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: always too. Our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya,

739
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey, thank you and thanks to you

740
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: for listening stuff I've Never told you, production of iHeartRadio.

741
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: For more podcast in my heart Radio, check out their

742
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Speaker 1: heart Radio, Apple podcasts, or where you listen to favorite

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