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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Savior production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: I'm ann Aries and I'm going vogel bum and today

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Speaker 2: we have an episode for you about Emmin Tal cheese.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you know, we love the cheese episodes. Oh we do,

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Speaker 1: we do.

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Speaker 2: It would be a whole cheese podcast if that wouldn't

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Speaker 2: get incredibly incredibly repetitive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but somehow surprisingly unique in certain ways.

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Speaker 2: Yep, Oh absolutely there was. I was excited about this

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Speaker 2: one because there's so much science in it. But then

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Speaker 2: there was too much science and I could not complete

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Speaker 2: the science reading in the time I had allotted myself,

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Speaker 2: and that's why this episode is going out a little

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Speaker 2: bit late.

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Speaker 1: So here we are. Yes, but it's all fascinating. Was

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Speaker 1: there any particular reason this was on your mind?

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Speaker 2: Nope, nopeurs I was just looking for a cheese to

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Speaker 2: talk about, and again I was like, oh, that's a

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Speaker 2: lot of science.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I have to say, I don't know i'd ever

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Speaker 1: heard the term I'm until i'd obviously have switch. I've

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Speaker 1: had Swiss cheese, which we're going to talk about.

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Speaker 2: They're basically the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're going to talk about But yeah, so

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Speaker 1: I went into this like not knowing what I was

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Speaker 1: getting into. And there's quite a history as well, so

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Speaker 1: it's a fun one. It's a fun one. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can see our past cheese episodes. I would say

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Speaker 1: maybe greere in specific, maybe fondue, Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it is one of the traditional cheeses that goes

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Speaker 2: into fondue.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, although I've also heard some arguments about

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Speaker 1: that people like to fight. Yes, well, I guess this

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Speaker 1: brings us to our question, Yes, emin tal what is it?

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Speaker 2: Well. Amontal cheese, also called a ementoaler or simply Swiss cheese,

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Speaker 2: is a type of medium hard cow milk cheese that's

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Speaker 2: a pale yellow white in color and smattered with these

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Speaker 2: round holes of varying sizes throughout its body. They're called eyes,

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Speaker 2: and they can be up to the size of a cherry.

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Speaker 2: It is a firm and smooth and a little like

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Speaker 2: springy or chewy when it's a cool to room temperature,

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Speaker 2: and also melts well into a sort of stringy, soft goo.

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Speaker 2: And I mean that in the best way. The flavor

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Speaker 2: is nutty and a little buttery or sweet, with a

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Speaker 2: little bit of fruity tartness and a kind of grassy

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Speaker 2: hay flavor. Some iterations are pretty mild, but the ones

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Speaker 2: produce the traditional way tend to be more flavorful, and

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Speaker 2: they also get more distinctive the longer that they're aged.

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Speaker 2: It can be eaten on its own as a snack

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Speaker 2: or on toast, sandwiches, or melted into savory dishes like

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Speaker 2: fondue or casseroles or baked goods to add a little

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Speaker 2: bit of nutty richness in there. It's just like a

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Speaker 2: really nice cheese.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: It's what cartoon mice love eating. It's like if a

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Speaker 2: large sponge were delicious. It's like, Okay, this is pretty specific,

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Speaker 2: but if you've ever line dried a sweater and then

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Speaker 2: it smells all like fresh air and sunshine, and then

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Speaker 2: you've worn it on a day that was a little

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Speaker 2: cool and you kind of needed a hug, that's what

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Speaker 2: it's like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I have done that. Some days you need that.

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Speaker 1: You need these little comforting soft yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And feeling a little bit enclosed, like a little thunderjacket.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah, I'm until. Cheese is traditionally made in

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Speaker 2: certain areas of Switzerland by certain traditional processes. Its quality

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Speaker 2: and style are upheld by European Union protected designation of

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Speaker 2: Origin laws, also called a PEDO or an AOP, depending

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Speaker 2: on which a language you're abbreviating or acronym. Yeah. However,

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Speaker 2: similar styles are made around the world. More on that,

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Speaker 2: a lot more on that in the history section. To

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Speaker 2: get that pdo ementtol cheese must be made from whole

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Speaker 2: raw milk from cows raised in and treated in certain

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Speaker 2: ways in certain areas of Switzerland, then processed less than

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Speaker 2: twenty four hours later within twenty kilometers of distance away.

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Speaker 2: The wheels have to be a certain size and aged

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Speaker 2: in certain conditions for a certain amount of time. That

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Speaker 2: milk has to have been processed in either copper kettles

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Speaker 2: or finishers, and the only things you can add to

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Speaker 2: it are rennet local lactic acid bacteria, specific propionic acid bacteria,

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Speaker 2: salt and water. The pressed wheel must undergo a fermentation,

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Speaker 2: storage process and an aging process for one of three

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Speaker 2: lengths of time at least four months, eight months, or

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Speaker 2: twelve months before they can be sold. They have to

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Speaker 2: be evaluated on a twenty point system of qualities like

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Speaker 2: eye size and earn at least eighteen points. But I'm

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Speaker 2: getting a little bit ahead of myself. Okay, so cheese.

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Speaker 2: It is a way of preserving milk before it goes bad.

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Speaker 2: Going bad is a lay term for microbes eating your

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Speaker 2: food before you get a chance to and making it

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Speaker 2: therefore anywhere from like unappetizing to downright toxic. In order

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Speaker 2: to preserve milk, there are a number of different steps

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Speaker 2: you can take, and one of them is to introduce

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Speaker 2: helpful microbes before the harmful ones have a chance to grow.

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Speaker 2: As we have talked about several times before, a type

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Speaker 2: of bacteria called lactic acid bacteria help preserve cheese because

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Speaker 2: they eat some of the sugars in milk and poop acids,

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Speaker 2: which helps separate out the water stuff that the way

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Speaker 2: from the solid stuff the kurds, which in this case

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Speaker 2: you then press into a wheel. You may also add

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Speaker 2: rennet here, which is a natural product that helps the

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Speaker 2: coagulation and separation process, which was originally found in baby

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Speaker 2: ruminant stomachs, but where it helps them digest milk. It's

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Speaker 2: often made from vegetarian sources today. Anyway, getting rid of

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Speaker 2: the water content helps prevent harmful microbes from growing. The

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Speaker 2: lactic acid itself also helps prevent microbes from growing and

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Speaker 2: In this case, you additionally apply saltwater brine to the

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Speaker 2: outside of the pressed wheel before storing it. And okay,

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Speaker 2: here is where the second type of bacteria that I

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Speaker 2: mentioned come in, species of propionic bacterium like pe fruit

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Speaker 2: and riki. Sure, great, great great species name.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: They'll eat lactic acid and then poop carbon dioxide plus

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Speaker 2: a couple of other acids acetic acid and propionic acids.

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Speaker 2: Those new acids will further transform into some of the

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Speaker 2: flavor molecules that make this cheese tasty. For example, its

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Speaker 2: fruity flavors also necessary BACTERIAO. Yeah, and the carbon dioxide

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Speaker 2: is useful here too, all right. For over one hundred

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Speaker 2: years was thought that the holes and mantl cheeses were

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Speaker 2: solely due to the action of those microbes giving off

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Speaker 2: carbon dioxide inside the cheese as it ripens, along with

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Speaker 2: the solidity yet elasticity of the cheese to allow that

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Speaker 2: gas to expand in the wheel, creating those nice round eyes.

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Speaker 2: But it turns out that a factor was missing from

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Speaker 2: the equation nucleation points for the gas bubbles. A little

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Speaker 2: bit more on this in the history section. But recently

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Speaker 2: researchers learned that modern, highly sanitary, closed milking systems weren't

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Speaker 2: mutting in particles of hay the traditionally got into the

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Speaker 2: milk without those microskuspic particles, which contain tiny air bubbles.

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Speaker 2: Pretty Much any carbon dioxide produced by the bacteria will

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Speaker 2: escape out through the cheese as the cheese like settles,

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Speaker 2: but with those particles as nucleation sites, the carbon dioxide

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Speaker 2: produced creates the characteristic bubbles. This can be a totally

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Speaker 2: sanitary process, by the way, like makers can add in

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Speaker 2: a few milligrams of just clean hay particles.

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Speaker 1: To do the trick.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, love it, Love it. The aforementioned copper kettles and

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Speaker 2: or finishers also help make the cheese what it is

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Speaker 2: in ways that science hasn't actually figured out yet. The

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Speaker 2: idea is that the copper somehow helps the helpful bacteria

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Speaker 2: create a tasty cheese. In some regions that don't use

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Speaker 2: traditional copperware, makers will add copper sulfate to compensate.

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Speaker 1: Huh, I feel like we've read about that before. I

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Speaker 1: think we've come into this before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, a real, real interesting, real interesting metal. We'll

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Speaker 2: have to I'm avoiding doing an episode on copper cookware

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Speaker 2: for this very reason.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that that was supposed to be our anniversary?

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Speaker 2: We were like no, yeah, yeah, because because seven years

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Speaker 2: is copper traditionally and like wedding stuff. So but anyway, yeah,

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Speaker 2: here we go. Anyway, the wheels of cheese that are

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Speaker 2: produced are traditionally large, on average, about eighty five centimeters

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Speaker 2: in diameter, twenty two centimeters tall, and about ninety kilos.

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Speaker 2: That's like two feet nine inches wide, about nine inches

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Speaker 2: tall and weighing some two hundred pounds. Wow, yeppurs, who all.

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Speaker 1: Right, well, what about the nutrition.

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Speaker 2: As as as always, a cheese is a calorically dense food,

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Speaker 2: which is the entire idea. You've condensed all the nutrition

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Speaker 2: from milk into the cheese. Uh. You know, it's got

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Speaker 2: a got a good punch of protein, good punch, a

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Speaker 2: good punch of fats, some good good smattering of micro nutrients. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, watch your portion sizes, eat a vegetable, drink

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Speaker 2: of water, milk, some cheese on your vegetables.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, this did make me crave a sandwich.

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Speaker 1: I haven't really craved a sandwich in a long time,

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Speaker 1: but doing the research for this, I was like, I

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Speaker 1: could really get some cheese on the sandwich. Yeah, very

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Speaker 1: happy right now? Man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think that I've ever had real Amontal cheese.

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Speaker 2: I think I've only had like Swiss cheese varieties from

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Speaker 2: other places. So now I'm like, okay, projects.

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Speaker 1: Yep, me as well. Projects, Well, we do have some numbers.

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Speaker 2: For you, we do, Okay. Each wheel of emmental uses

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Speaker 2: over one thousand liters of milk. Wow, and Mmental style

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Speaker 2: cheeses are a one point six billion dollar industry worldwide.

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Speaker 2: As of twenty twenty three. North America is the largest

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Speaker 2: producer and consumer, which is big if true, because apparently

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Speaker 2: French consumption of mental is something like twenty two pounds

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Speaker 2: per person per year, which equals up to like a

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Speaker 2: gram per person per day. And based on that number,

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Speaker 2: like some researchers were like, okay, we need to study

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Speaker 2: the microbial and or probiotic effects of mental on the

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Speaker 2: human gut because of the sheer amount that French people

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Speaker 2: are eating.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing. Yeah, wow, I've eaten so much cheese my

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Speaker 1: biomes is worthyarly effected study.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I mean we yeah, science call us where weep?

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Speaker 2: Probably have you heard about my chi giving that pdo

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Speaker 2: does take itself real seriously in Switzerland. Also in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 2: a seller who was trying to pass off some thirty

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Speaker 2: five hundred metric tons of not Pdo cheese wound up

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Speaker 2: being sentenced to three years in prison and a one

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Speaker 2: million Swiss franc fine. That's a little bit over a

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Speaker 2: million dollars USD. The last I read, the case was

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Speaker 2: going to a federal court.

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Speaker 1: They do indeed take it seriously, and they have like

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Speaker 1: a thing that they test for.

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Speaker 2: We're oh, yeah, yeah, more on that, more on that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: in a minute, but for one more number for you,

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Speaker 2: or a number of more numbers for you in a

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Speaker 2: single bullet point. As of twenty twenty two, one hundred

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Speaker 2: and one mental Pdo cheese makers, working with some twenty

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Speaker 2: six thousand cows, were producing about fifteen thousand tons of

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Speaker 2: cheese per year and exporting about two thirds of that

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Speaker 2: to thirty countries, which might sound like a lot of cheese,

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Speaker 2: but it's actually a lot less production than it used

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Speaker 2: to be, and only some eight percent of total Swiss

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Speaker 2: cheese production. That is production of cheese in Switzerland, not

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Speaker 2: production of Swiss style cheese, yes, yes.

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Speaker 1: Which is something we're going to get into in the

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Speaker 1: history section.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh, this one goes places.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so we're going to get into that, but first

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Speaker 2: we are going to get into a quick break for

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Speaker 2: a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 1: And we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So reminder, if you've listened to our cheese episodes, a

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Speaker 1: lot of our episodes, honestly, but our cheese episodes, lots

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Speaker 1: of cheeses were probably discovered at different times or even

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Speaker 1: at the same time, simultaneously but separately around the world.

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Speaker 1: We've told the story a million times. It's almost always

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Speaker 1: kind of some kind of accidental event and there you go.

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Speaker 1: People liked it. Let's make it cheese.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's make it even better.

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Speaker 1: Great, Yeah, let's do it. That being said, most historians

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Speaker 1: trace imental cheese to Switzerland out of the thirteenth century.

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Speaker 1: The earliest records we know of in the written record

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Speaker 1: come from a twelve ninety three mention of cheese being

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Speaker 1: made out of the Burn region of Switzerland. That being said,

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Speaker 1: the name imental didn't appear until centuries later, in the

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Speaker 1: mid fifteen hundreds, which, by the way, we're trying our best,

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Speaker 1: but imental is so easy to say a number of

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Speaker 1: different ways. I'm very tempted to keep saying elemental, but yep,

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Speaker 1: yep in Intel. One record from around then suggest that

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Speaker 1: this cheese was given as a wedding present. In one instance, heck, yeah,

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Speaker 1: good present. Yeah yeah, I mean I would love it too.

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Speaker 2: The name Emmantal comes from the region where it's from,

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Speaker 2: the Emma River valley. Tall is a word for valley

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Speaker 2: in German, and you can add the er to the

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Speaker 2: end to mean from the Emma River valley. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yes. And when it comes to how exactly this cheese

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Speaker 1: arose in the region, many point to the cows, the temperature,

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Speaker 1: and the water, like basically the whole environment just came

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Speaker 1: together for this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. It's this relatively low altitude area of the Alps,

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Speaker 2: so warm weather lasts longer there than in higher up regions,

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Speaker 2: meaning grass is available to the cows longer, meaning they

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Speaker 2: can produce more high quality milk every year.

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Speaker 1: And as we've discussed in various cheese episodes specifically from

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Speaker 1: this region, a lot of the stories of its creation

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Speaker 1: are kind of vague, but involves shepherds making cheese from

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Speaker 1: their livestock. In this case, cows and aging it in dark, cool,

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Speaker 1: damp caves. I have to say we didn't get the

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Speaker 1: love story that we normally get.

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Speaker 2: But oh man, we didn't. Yeah, there was no There

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Speaker 2: was no sad cowherd pining over some lady, or ditching

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Speaker 2: his work in order to go chase some lady.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, or like impressed some lady.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, or some lady saving her father's farm by

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Speaker 2: coming up with it. That's another popular one. Maybe to

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Speaker 2: impress a guy.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that's true. That was not there here,

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Speaker 1: but the basics are still there though, Like a shepherd

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Speaker 1: milk cheese cave. Let's aage it in there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a note here. Not all the cheese being produced

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Speaker 2: there originally was what we now know as emmental. The

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Speaker 2: style developed it and solidified over the next few centuries.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I found really interesting about that

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Speaker 1: is that there's a popular legend that the large wheel

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Speaker 1: size of imintel cheese is due to a loophole in

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Speaker 1: the tax code. Essentially, cheeses were taxed not by weight,

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Speaker 1: but by the wheel, So why not just make a

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Speaker 1: huge wheel of product and pay less taxes. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that's true, but we do run into a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of tax related Oh yeah, issue, Absolutely, it wouldn't that

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Speaker 2: one wouldn't surprise me. A lot of stories. I'm kind

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Speaker 2: of like, Oh, that's clearly apocryphal, but that's what I'm like.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, evading taxes has been around forever.

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Speaker 1: I can totally see it. Yes, However, despite the large

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Speaker 1: wheel size, until the early eighteen hundreds, this cheese stayed

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Speaker 1: largely local. But perhaps because these producers start making so

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Speaker 1: much in these big wheels, like they've just had so

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Speaker 1: much product to spread across Europe. I'm sure things like

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Speaker 1: industrialization for transportation and increasing travel and globalization helped to

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Speaker 1: According to Imentaler's Switzerland website, which is kind of an

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Speaker 1: authority on this whole thing, many cheese dairies opened in

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Speaker 1: the Burn region during this time, increasing the production and

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Speaker 1: selling product on a larger scale, so more people were

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Speaker 1: eating it, more people wanted it, productions going up. The

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Speaker 1: Swiss started introducing Swiss cheese to North America as they

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Speaker 1: settled there in the mid eighteen fifties. Some set up

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Speaker 1: small cheese places in New York, eventually moving further west

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Speaker 1: to dairy hubs like Wisconsin, where they set up some

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Speaker 1: brought their copper pots for traditional cheesemaking with them. Others

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Speaker 1: got them in the United States, But as the popularity

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Speaker 1: of the cheese grew in the US, it went through

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Speaker 1: a rebrand, becoming largely known as Swiss cheese, in part

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Speaker 1: I read because it was easier for non Swiss folks

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Speaker 1: to pronounce Swiss as opposed to immantal imtaler.

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Speaker 2: In.

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Speaker 1: This in turn inspired more Americanized Swiss cheeses that further

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Speaker 1: confused the category slash name. Some of these cheeses have

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Speaker 1: been dubbed American Swiss cheeses since then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've read that there's only one cheesemaker in the

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Speaker 2: United States doing like the full traditional method. But I'm

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Speaker 2: not an expert in this, and I didn't cite the

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Speaker 2: source here in my notes, so who knows. Who knows

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Speaker 2: if that's correct. I'm just saying things into microphones now. However,

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Speaker 2: I can tell you for a fact that this is

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Speaker 2: where we get cheeses like baby Swiss from those are

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Speaker 2: like kind of like sub varietals that branched off, right.

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Speaker 1: But you know, during the all of this happening, of course,

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Speaker 1: in Switzerland, they're like, wait a minute, they're hold up.

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Speaker 1: So in nineteen oh one, Swiss cheese sellers, milk producers,

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Speaker 1: and some federal authorities came together to form the Swiss

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Speaker 1: Cheese Union Great name. It was later broken up into

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Speaker 1: different organizations in nineteen ninety six. Some of them are

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Speaker 1: still around. But yeah, spread out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's where that emmentaler Switzerland Great eventually would

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Speaker 2: come from. But anyway, in nineteen seventeen, an American researcher

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Speaker 2: by the name of William Clark published to study the

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Speaker 2: first study about how bacteria produced carbon dioxide leads to

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Speaker 2: those eyes in Swiss style cheese.

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Speaker 1: In the aftermath of World War Two, the Swiss government

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Speaker 1: needed to find ways to make some money and up

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Speaker 1: their exports while also sustaining their population, so they offered

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Speaker 1: funding to boost the production and distribution of various cheeses,

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Speaker 1: including mental. By the following year, producers increased production of

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Speaker 1: mental to fifty thousand tons, which was it was. It

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Speaker 1: was a market increase.

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Speaker 2: A big jump, yes, another big jump. Skipping ahead to

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety there were some eight hundred mentol cheesemakers in Switzerland.

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Speaker 1: And then I just had to put this in here.

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Speaker 1: If you want to look up the pictures. I highly recommended.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety four, the Olympic Swiss ski team wore

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Speaker 1: speed suits designed to look like Swiss cheese.

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Speaker 2: So great.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what I was expecting, Like it's a

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Speaker 1: clear idea, but it was more vibrant than I thought

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Speaker 1: it would be. I highly recommend looking up. Moving on,

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and six, the Swiss were granted the

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Speaker 1: AOP protected designation of origin for Mental cheese.

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Speaker 2: Then in two thousand and eight, Swiss scientists developed this

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Speaker 2: method for genetically marking cheeses so that you can test

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Speaker 2: the finished product for authenticity. It involves adding specific lactic

347
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Speaker 2: acid bacteria that can be easily genetically tested for and

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Speaker 2: that also, furthermore, will not change the traditional makeup of

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Speaker 2: the cheese. They started applying this technology to Mental in

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Speaker 2: twenty eleven, and it was the first cheese in fact,

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Speaker 2: that they applied it to.

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Speaker 1: And it's kind of funny to read the producers talk

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Speaker 1: about it, because they're like, will no one what they'd

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Speaker 1: just my cheese. It's gonna be legit. You make the

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Speaker 1: fake stuff, they're gonna get you. Emental was recognized as

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Speaker 1: Switzerland's first geographical brand in twenty fifteen by the Swiss

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Speaker 1: Federal Institute of Intellectual Property. That being said, in several

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Speaker 1: articles I read that are pretty recent, the popularity of

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Speaker 1: Swiss cheese in the US has really muddied the waters

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Speaker 1: of understanding imintel here and elsewhere. One of the reasons

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Speaker 1: given for this is that after the market was flooded

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Speaker 1: with imitators but also with the real thing after World

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Speaker 1: War Two, it became viewed as a staple cheese, almost

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Speaker 1: a substance cheese, and that people started to view it

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Speaker 1: as old fashioned. And yes, I know we've talked about

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Speaker 1: it before, but in cartoons, animated cheese almost always has

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Speaker 1: holes in it. It's almost always associated this kind of

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Speaker 1: like white yellow thing with holes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. But because of that, because a lot of those

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Speaker 1: cartoons are older, although it still persists today, it just

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Speaker 1: became associated with old timey.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I would assume that also the perceived old timiness of

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Speaker 2: fondue in this country is probably a little bit of

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Speaker 2: the issue as well, since it is one of those

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Speaker 2: three traditional ingredients of cheeses in fon Due that, yeah,

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00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 2: it kind of got wrapped up into that and so

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Speaker 2: now we're like, oh, that's old cheese.

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Speaker 1: Who wants old cheese? That's not that's not a thing.

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Speaker 2: Wrapped Up in all of this as well is a

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Speaker 2: number of really complicated agricultural policies and like supply demand issues.

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Speaker 2: In Switzerland, for example, going back to the nineteen nineties

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Speaker 2: and before, there were dairy subsidies for the production of milk,

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Speaker 2: and the surplus often went to the manufacture of the

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00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 2: popular emental, which led to like too much cheese, and

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Speaker 2: then the price absolutely dove as the industry tried to

389
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:47,239
Speaker 2: sell off their stock. A few agricultural reforms helped solve that,

390
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 2: but then heading into the two thousands, the Pedo Consortium

391
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 2: tried to further enforce quotas to keep prices stable, but

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Speaker 2: some cheesemakers didn't like that, and then the system borked

393
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: and destabilized for it. Yeah, it's been, it's been from this.

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Speaker 2: This is I don't understand like this kind of economic

395
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 2: politics very well. That's not really my forte. But I

396
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: almost just said fortnite.

397
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Speaker 1: Where did that come from?

398
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 2: I love this okay anyway.

399
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: And forte is also not fortnite, clearly not.

400
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Speaker 2: But but right, this is a very brief summary of

401
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 2: a number of very complicated political issues at any rate.

402
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Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of brief summaries and going back to something

403
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Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, Lauren. Also in twenty fifteen, the Swiss

404
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: government's food research center Agroscope, published a steady detailing research

405
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: that they'd done into why the number of holes or

406
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: eyes in this cheese was decreasing, which was which, Yes,

407
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: they were going down, and as you said, this is

408
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 1: a factor that the cheese is graded on. So their

409
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: theory was that the milk being used had become too clean.

410
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: Little bits of hay debris, for instance, were great for

411
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: carbon dioxide bubbles to attach to and make the holes

412
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: in the process, but as tech had modernized and become

413
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: increasingly cleaner, that went away. So in twenty twenty three,

414
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: the assembly of the Imentaler Consortium again great debated allowing

415
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 1: for hay particles to be allowed back in. I don't

416
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: know if they've reached a verdict yet, but they were

417
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: debating it recently.

418
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 2: Okay, some more weird science for you. In twenty eighteen,

419
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 2: a group of students from the University of Bern helped

420
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: a local horse veterinarian slash cheese celler owner run an

421
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 2: experiment where wheels of mmentol were exposed to different kinds

422
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 2: of music while they aged for eight months. I'm speaking

423
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Speaker 2: slowly because I want you to really absorb every element

424
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: of wackadoo sentence.

425
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: I really am, all right.

426
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: So they got nine relatively small wheels of mmental from

427
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: this award winning Swiss cheesemaker. The wheels were just ten

428
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 2: kilos or twenty two pounds each. They then constructed these

429
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 2: nine wooden boxes and rigged up each wheel of cheese

430
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: with its own like personal entertainment system that piped sound

431
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 2: waves directly into the cheese. All right, so it was

432
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,479
Speaker 2: getting like the full vibration. Yeah, there was one control

433
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 2: wheel that actually got silence, three that received non musical

434
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 2: tones of high, mid or low frequency, and then five

435
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: that got a song on loop. Annie, judging by your

436
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: horrified expression, you agree with me that this is torture,

437
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 2: like cheese torture.

438
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: What monsters would do this to a cheese?

439
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: Lord?

440
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: What monsters?

441
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 2: I you know, I can only assume that the cheese

442
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 2: didn't to that much, But I you know, I don't know,

443
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 2: all right, Uh, Because of course you want to know

444
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 2: what songs these perhaps bonstrous experimenters played. They chose examples

445
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: from five different categories of music. Classical represented by Mozart's

446
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: The Magic Flute, rock represented by led Zeppelins, Stairway to Heaven,

447
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: hip hop represented by tribe called Quests, Jazz, ambient represented

448
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 2: by Yellow's Monolith, and techno represented by Vrill. I've never

449
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 2: heard that name out loud Rill's UV all right.

450
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 1: They played.

451
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: They played the sounds twenty four hours a day, and

452
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: apparently the cheeses exposed to sound were generally more mild

453
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 2: than the control cheese, except for the hip hop cheese,

454
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: which was notably sweeter and stronger in terms of smell

455
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: and taste. The quote was remarkably frue It was remarkably fruity.

456
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,239
Speaker 1: Oh wow. I was hoping at the end of this

457
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: we'd have like an emo cheese, just clearly somehow. Wow.

458
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

459
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

460
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: Based on this, the aforementioned horse veterinarian slash cheese seller

461
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: owner really wants to set up another experiment with like

462
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: different kinds of hip hop and see what happens. So

463
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 2: oh interesting.

464
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: I like that. As judgy as I was, I was

465
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: worried for the cheese only. Oh yeah, yeah, don't I

466
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: guess that's better than silence. I just feel like listening

467
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: to the same song over and over.

468
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, I'm thinking of that episode of Walking

469
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: Dead where they're like torturing Darryl.

470
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: And oh yeah, see, I love listening to the same

471
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: song over and over. But when it's done, it's done,

472
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: and I never want to hear it years years later.

473
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: The cheese, you know, well, well again. You never know

474
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: where the research will go. But back to legal matters.

475
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty three, Switzerland lost a case trying to

476
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: secure the rights to an emmental trademark in the European Union.

477
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: Swiss producers brought this about largely because both Germany and

478
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: France produced an emmental cheese, but the court ruled it

479
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: was too late, that it was too ubiquitous a term,

480
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,959
Speaker 1: and that they didn't bring enough proof that these cheeses

481
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: were taking away. These cheeses from France and Germany were

482
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: taking away from the cheeses from Switzerland's business, and usually

483
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: the label mentioned Switzerland in some way when it was

484
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: from France or Germany. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

485
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: They were hoping to regulate the cheeses of this style

486
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 2: from other places be labeled mental from you know, wherever,

487
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: and that the Swiss mental would be the only ones

488
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: allowed to label their cheese simply m entall in the EU.

489
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 2: But right, nope, nope, Yeah, it has been a struggle.

490
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: Production has been decreasing steadily over the past few decades.

491
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: In just the last ten years, it's dropped from about

492
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 2: twenty five thousand tons a year to only fifteen thousand.

493
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: The industry cites lack of demand for the more expensive

494
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: PDO version and like the current strength of the Swiss franc,

495
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 2: making it just way cheaper to get a hold of

496
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: copies being made wherever you are, and says the traditional

497
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: Swiss cheesemakers have because of that, started pivoting to making

498
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: other types of cheese, but bless they are trying. For example,

499
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 2: in October of twenty twenty three, a promotional event from

500
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: a couple of Swiss dairy producers involved this one hundred

501
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: kilo wheel of emental being rolled ninety kilometers from its

502
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: factory in m Andaal all the way to Zurich, like

503
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: by hand, I'm pretty sure, like up and down all

504
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 2: through the heck and mountains. That is a two hundred

505
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 2: and twenty pound wheel being rolled fifty five miles through

506
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 2: the mountains. It was displayed along the way in several locations,

507
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 2: accompanied by cheese and wine tastings, and was ushered across

508
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 2: the finish line by a local mayor and a rapper

509
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: by the name of stephla Chef. I don't know who

510
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: that is, but I adore the name. Yeah, and then

511
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 2: chunks of it were sent to Swiss embassies around the

512
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: world for tastings.

513
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: Wow, that sounds fun and delicious. Yes, also pretty wild

514
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: promotional event. Hey, cheese rolling is a thing people have

515
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: written in about it. So it's a big hunk of

516
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: cheese to roll.

517
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 2: Yes, that's like a a that's a solid, person sized

518
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: wheel of cheese.

519
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: It's a big wheel of cheese. Hey, if anybody happened

520
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: to witness this, please let us know because that's that's amazing.

521
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: That's a sight to any to behold. Oh yeah, oh.

522
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean if you've ever rolled cheeses yourself.

523
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: Oh yes, any cheese we will accept. But I think woof,

524
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: we've gone all over the place. I think that's what

525
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: we have to say for now, though.

526
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: It is it is we. We do already have some

527
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 2: listener mail for you, though, and we are going to

528
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: get into that as soon as we get back from

529
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: one more quick break for a word from our sponsors,

530
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,959
Speaker 2: and we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you, and

531
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: we're back with no.

532
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: I do always think of Tom and Jerry when I

533
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: think of Swiss Cheese. I didn't even watch it that

534
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: much as a kid, but it was very I think

535
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: even if you didn't watch it, it's pretty iconic. Yeah. Yeah,

536
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: well a lot of traps with the cheese.

537
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, between that and like itching and scratchy.

538
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay, First off, I have two short

539
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: notes that I very much enjoyed and wanted to share

540
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: that were in response to our recent anniversary special. First

541
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: from Jen release the Lauren Curse Words super Cut, and

542
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: then from David Hi, I just wanted to say, a

543
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 1: live show featuring Lauren's unfiltered profanity sounds like a feature,

544
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: not a book. So if you didn't, if you haven't

545
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: heard that episode yet, we discussed one of the things

546
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 1: holding us back from a live show is that to Lauren,

547
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: it does curse quite a bit and it gets cut out.

548
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: But I've appreciated hearing from the people Lauren.

549
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is slightly embarrassing but delightful. Thank you, Thank

550
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 2: you all for appreciating weird nerd who happened to Custolic

551
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 2: sailors a long stream too.

552
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 1: It's pretty impressive.

553
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: I'm trying, I'm trying.

554
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 1: Oh impressed me. Oh gosh, A mill.

555
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 2: Wrote a bit late to the party. But I just

556
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: listened to your Lincoln Berry episode and it was very

557
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 2: good and interesting. I'm Swedish, so must if it was

558
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: not that new, but still always fun to listen to

559
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 2: you too. One thing you didn't bring up, and it's

560
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 2: quite a bummer, so I understand if you didn't want to.

561
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 2: Is that a lot of Lincoln berries used in commercial

562
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 2: products are picked by seasonal workers from Asia, working in

563
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 2: very poor conditions for low wages. I was just part

564
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: of a big berry research conference here in Sweden and

565
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: a common sentiment among most researchers and presenters was that

566
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 2: wild berries and lincoln berries are very healthy. We pick

567
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 2: too little, we need to eat more, but a lot

568
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: of the workers need better conditions. Now a lot of

569
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 2: speeds pick their own berries and that's awesome.

570
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: But it's just something to keep in mind. Absolutely.

571
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I gosh, I feel like this came

572
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 2: up in maybe our cloud berry episode as well. About yeah, yeah,

573
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: it's certainly a problem here in the United States too,

574
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 2: and a very real concern of course. Yeah.

575
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, your kind of summary of like they're healthy,

576
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 1: we pick too little, we need to eat more, and

577
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: workers need better conditions. I feel like that fits for

578
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: a lot of things we talk about, absolutely, and it

579
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 1: is important to talk about. Yes, oh goodness, of course

580
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: always yeah, always ride in with a kill joy corner

581
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: if you have one. Uh, we're fans over here of

582
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 1: thinking about stuff as it turns out. Also, I need

583
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: you to understand that that the phrase big Berry research

584
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 1: conference was so cool that I that my brain stopped

585
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: and I had to restart that sentence. Yeah, I mean,

586
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: I want to know so much more about this conference,

587
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: this conference. Please, you're like dangling something in front of us.

588
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: I want it so cool. Oh gosh.

589
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 2: Also, I had to restart twice because a second time

590
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 2: I read I'm sorry the first time that I restarted, Uh,

591
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: I read the phrase like it was big Berry, as

592
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 2: though it's like it's like big government or like you know, yeah,

593
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: big oil. Yeah, and that was not the correct inflection.

594
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:09,959
Speaker 3: Right inflection matters, it really does, Oh gosh. Yeah, Well again,

595
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 3: you listeners are doing all kinds of cool things, yes,

596
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 3: and we do really appreciate when you let us know

597
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 3: about that or something that we missed. We also love

598
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 3: hearing your thoughts on a possible live show, so thank you.

599
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: Thank you to these listeners for writing in. If you

600
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: would like to write to us, you can. Our email

601
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: is hello at savorpod dot com.

602
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: We're also on social media. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook,

603
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: and Instagram at saver pod and we do hope to

604
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 2: hear from you. Savor is production of iHeartRadio. For more

605
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 2: podcasts my Heart Radio, you can visit the iHeartRadio app,

606
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

607
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 2: Thanks as always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and

608
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 2: Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and we hope

609
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: that lots of more good things are coming your way