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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, thanks for listening to Breaking Points with Crystal

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Speaker 1: and Sager. We're going to be totally upfront with you.

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Speaker 1: the show notes. Enjoy the show, guys. Join us now

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Speaker 1: for our weekly partnership segment with the Daily Poster. We

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Speaker 1: have David Sirota. He is, of course, founder of the

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Speaker 1: Daily Poster. Great to see you, David. Good to see you, David.

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Speaker 1: Good to see you both. So you guys did some

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Speaker 1: deep reporting on some of the ways that the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court's pro corporate ideology is shaped. And this is happening

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Speaker 1: on among the right wing members of the Court, but

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Speaker 1: not exclusively the right wing members of the Court. We've

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Speaker 1: seen the Supreme Court over years, including quote unquote liberal

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Speaker 1: justices like Justice Bryer, take a lot of decisions that

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Speaker 1: are very favorable to corporate America. Let's go ahead and

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Speaker 1: put the piece up there on the screen from Walker Bragman.

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Speaker 1: He says how pro business law and economics interests pushed

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Speaker 1: the courts right as justices considered crushing the EPA data

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Speaker 1: shows a link between judges all expense paid free market

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Speaker 1: trainings and right wing business rulings. So talk to us

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Speaker 1: about what exactly is going on here, David. So, there's

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Speaker 1: a movement called the law and economics movement, and it's

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Speaker 1: a right wing conservative movement that was designed to have

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Speaker 1: court rulings that apply supposedly economic principles to how judges

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Speaker 1: interpret the law. And not surprisingly, that is a way

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Speaker 1: to ideologically shift the Court's rulings to the right. What

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Speaker 1: new data tell us is that there is a link

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Speaker 1: between the judges all throughout the judiciary system, judges taking

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Speaker 1: these all expenses paid luxury trips to law and economics conferences,

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Speaker 1: and those judges systematically producing more right wing rulings on

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Speaker 1: specifically cases involving labor, the environment, and antitrust. So, in

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Speaker 1: other words, you have a movement funded by corporate interests

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Speaker 1: that is bank rolling luxury trips for judges to effectively

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Speaker 1: indoctrinate a generation of judges to apply essentially conservative economic

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Speaker 1: ideology to how they interpret the law. And this is

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Speaker 1: all specifically relevant right now because the Supreme Court, of

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Speaker 1: which there are law and economics adherence on that court,

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Speaker 1: that court is right now considering the kind of case

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Speaker 1: that's at issue here, the case that would effectively defang

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Speaker 1: the EPA and prevent it from reducing greenhouse gas emissions

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Speaker 1: in the United States. Yeah, I think you know, it's

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Speaker 1: funny because of my background, I've been aware of this

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Speaker 1: for a long time, and it's funny. I've always seen

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Speaker 1: the there's a lot of liberal obsession over the cultural

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Speaker 1: war issues, and I'm like, you guys don't even know

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Speaker 1: what's happening on the economic side. I've always said the

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Speaker 1: Fed federalist society, and more, they care more about defanging

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Speaker 1: administrative law than they do in by social like social

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Speaker 1: conservatism by far. So just explain what that means, not

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Speaker 1: only in the EPA practice, but in general anti trust

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Speaker 1: so much more that nobody ever focuses on. Sure. So, look,

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court and the judiciary as a whole is

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Speaker 1: mostly dealing with business cases, economic cases, and those cases

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Speaker 1: do not get nearly the attention that cultural issues social

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Speaker 1: issues get at the court. But as you suggest, the

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Speaker 1: conservative movement has been focused on moving the court specifically

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Speaker 1: farther and farther. I guess you'd call it to the right,

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Speaker 1: but really pro corporate direction to essentially get more and

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Speaker 1: more rulings that serve corporate interests. A good example is

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Speaker 1: the whole part of the court rulings that try to

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Speaker 1: take power away from federal agencies to essentially do their job,

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Speaker 1: whether it's anti trust regulation and the like. Another area

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Speaker 1: that we see is attempting to close the courthouse door

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Speaker 1: to plaintiffs seeking redress against corporations. That's another big, big

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Speaker 1: thing in the judiciary right now. And again, what the

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Speaker 1: new data shows, not surprisingly in some ways, is a

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Speaker 1: direct correlation between judges being given these luxury junkets to

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Speaker 1: go essentially be indoctrinated into this ideology, and those judges

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Speaker 1: producing the those kinds of rulings which serve corporate interests.

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Speaker 1: And again I go back to this EPA case. I

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Speaker 1: can't stress enough how important this case is. This is

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Speaker 1: a case where this is at issue, where the power

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Speaker 1: of the EPA to do its job regulating greenhouse gas

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Speaker 1: emissions is fundamentally at issue. You have West Virginia leading

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Speaker 1: a case to try to essentially prevent the EPA from

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Speaker 1: having that power during the climate crisis, and you have

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Speaker 1: the plaintiffs making a kind of law and economics argument, Oh,

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Speaker 1: if the EPA can regulate greenhouse gases, wouldn't that cost

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Speaker 1: society too much? And ultimately then the question becomes, well,

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Speaker 1: why are the judges deciding what costs too much or

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Speaker 1: what doesn't cost enough? Why is that something that's at issue.

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Speaker 1: Aren't the judges supposed to be ruling on matters of law,

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Speaker 1: on matters of what is the EPA, under the law

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Speaker 1: empowered to do. But that's that law and economics ideology

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Speaker 1: embedded in the judiciary system now, And who are some

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Speaker 1: of the top accolytes this approach who are currently on

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. And do we know anything about how

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Speaker 1: Biden's nominee Kataji Brown Jackson feels about this whole movement. Well, look,

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Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas has been a kind of an acolyte of

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Speaker 1: law and economics. I think he went to a couple

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Speaker 1: of these conferences you've got, you know, Sam Alito. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure he's gone to those conferences, but it's the

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Speaker 1: same sort of thing. I mean, basically, the right wing

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Speaker 1: judges on the Court have promoted this ideology. And by

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Speaker 1: the way, John Roberts, he is known as a kind

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Speaker 1: of so called moderate. He has been one of the

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Speaker 1: at the forefront of trying to shut plaintiffs out of

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Speaker 1: the court system, denying them effectively denying them standing as

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Speaker 1: it's called. And I should mention Justice Bryer has a

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Speaker 1: pretty conservative record, especially when it comes to antitrust. So

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Speaker 1: you were right at the beginning here to mention that

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Speaker 1: this isn't necessarily a democratic or Republican it's not even

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Speaker 1: necessarily liberal. Quote, we're conservative. This is sort of across

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Speaker 1: the spectrum of how we identify judges. We don't know

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Speaker 1: very much when it comes to this kind of stuff

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Speaker 1: with the new with Biden's new nominee, but my guess

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Speaker 1: is some of it will come out yeah thanking interesting.

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Speaker 1: And this is how over time you end up with

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Speaker 1: this landscape that is just so unfavorable to working people

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Speaker 1: and where corporations hold so much power and sway, David,

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Speaker 1: thank you as always for helping us understand those mechanics

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Speaker 1: that are operating behind the scenes. Thanks David, thank you

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Speaker 1: both our pleasure and thank you guys for watching go

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Speaker 1: subscribe to the Daily Poster. Thank you for subscribing to us,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna have more for you later. All right, guys,

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Speaker 1: I got a nice little catch from our friends over

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Speaker 1: at More Perfect Union. Let's go ahead and throw this

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Speaker 1: up on the screen. So Marjorie Taylor Green, Miss America

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Speaker 1: first herself apparently bought up to fifteen thousand dollars of

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Speaker 1: Lockheed Martin stock the very day before she tweeted, and

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Speaker 1: I quote war and rumors of war is incredibly profitable

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Speaker 1: and convenient. And just like that, the media now has

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Speaker 1: a lie to use as a reason for our shattered

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Speaker 1: economy and out of control inflation. So sagar At the

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Speaker 1: same time full timing that she is decrying, which you

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Speaker 1: know rightly so that the defense industrial complex, no one

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Speaker 1: will profit more from the current situation than they will,

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Speaker 1: And sure enough, their stock prices have all uniformly gone

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Speaker 1: up even as the market has crashed overall. But what

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Speaker 1: she didn't tell you is that she was getting in

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Speaker 1: on the deal so she herself could profit off of war. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's outrageous because she's already got a twenty one percent

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Speaker 1: return on that investment. So that's actually a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: I mean, here, let's go ahead and do this live

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Speaker 1: everybody times fifteen thousand, that's three thousand dollars. I mean

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Speaker 1: the average salary I think of a congress or sorry,

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Speaker 1: the congress salary is only one hundred and seventy five

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Speaker 1: thousand bucks. So this is a substantial return for a

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Speaker 1: lot of these people, especially her. I don't think she's

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Speaker 1: in dependently all that wealthy, but it comes down to

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Speaker 1: the fact that they do not deserve the ability in

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Speaker 1: order to trade stocks when they do outrageous things like this.

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Speaker 1: When you see these congressmen investing in the defense stocks

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Speaker 1: and then commenting and possibly impacting the situation, it's outrageous.

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Speaker 1: And this comes at a time when so many of

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Speaker 1: the people, as the Business Insider piece that we have

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Speaker 1: showed you before of Congress members who are on the

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Speaker 1: committees themselves over the defense industrial complex, are then invested

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Speaker 1: in those same companies. Put this on the screen, we

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Speaker 1: can show you the defense stocks are spiking all across

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Speaker 1: the US sector. Just yesterday, there was a photo of

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Speaker 1: Mohammed bin Salman, the Prince of Saudi Arabia, at a

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Speaker 1: conference in Saudi Arabia for defense companies, and it was

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Speaker 1: a Lockheed Martin booth. They even had the gall to

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Speaker 1: tweet it from their account, be like welcome to his

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Speaker 1: Royal Highness King, you know, the Crown Prince Muhammed bin Salmon.

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Speaker 1: This was disgusting, right, And look, Marjorie Taylor Green perhaps

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Speaker 1: soon may have to vote on banning Russian oil. Is

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Speaker 1: this investment going to have an impact on her decision?

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Speaker 1: I cannot tell you for certain. And thus the appearance

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Speaker 1: of corruption is just as bad as real corruption itself.

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Speaker 1: We've got to get this ban. I still can't believe.

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Speaker 1: You know, we didn't spend enough time on this because

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Speaker 1: of the Ukraine crisis. Joe Biden per the Washington Post

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Speaker 1: itself cut out that section of his State of the

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Speaker 1: Union where he called for a ban on stock Yes,

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Speaker 1: so reportedly an early draft included that call for a

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Speaker 1: stock trading ban. And as we've said here before, Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden actually has a lot of credibility on the issue

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Speaker 1: because that was the personal stance that he took for

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Speaker 1: the many years when he was in the Senate. Somehow

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Speaker 1: that got pulled from the draft. I would love to

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Speaker 1: know how that happened, But I do think it's important

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Speaker 1: to also say Marjorie Taylor Green is far from a

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Speaker 1: looney in terms of being a lawmaker looking to profit

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Speaker 1: off of war. There are, according to that Insider report,

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Speaker 1: at least fifteen different lawmakers who sit on committees with

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Speaker 1: direct responsibility over national defense who have investment in military contractors.

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Speaker 1: So if you go through the list, you're talking about

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Speaker 1: people like Senator Tommy Turberville, Sena Jackie Rosen representing Pat Fallon,

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Speaker 1: representing Jim Cooper, Representative Rocanna. Definitely culprits on both sides

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Speaker 1: of the aisle. And it's grotesque for our lawmakers who

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Speaker 1: bear the responsibility of deciding whether or not we go

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Speaker 1: to war to be in the position of profiteering off

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Speaker 1: of those conflicts. So Marjorie Taylor Green gets an extra

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Speaker 1: layer of hypocrisy for buying the stock and making this

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Speaker 1: investment days before decrying this exact type of profiteering. And

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Speaker 1: it just shows you how hollow their words are and

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Speaker 1: how it's just posturing above any sort of actual principle. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's nov in America first about this. Most of the

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Speaker 1: people who won't say a word about it, you know,

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Speaker 1: I won't have any real criticism, and they'll be like,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi is corrupt. Yeah, I agree, say that too, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And the you know, the the lack of honesty by

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Speaker 1: so many sides on this debate. To just show you

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Speaker 1: how deeply both sides corrupt are when it comes to

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Speaker 1: this issue is just, you know, absolutely astronomical. So so, guys,

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Speaker 1: I thought we'd bring you that a little update on

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Speaker 1: congressional corruption. We got to keep our eye on the

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Speaker 1: ball and continue pushing these people to actually push through

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Speaker 1: a band because I am getting nervous. We heard some

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Speaker 1: you know, there was movement on it, and now suddenly

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Speaker 1: that's what they do. We knew, we knew that they

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Speaker 1: were going to try and shoehorn it. The fact that

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Speaker 1: it got dropped by the state of the Union shows that,

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Speaker 1: and especially now with Ukraine. Ukraine's the best thing that

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Speaker 1: ever happened to a lot of these people. But look,

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Speaker 1: we're profiteering. Is profiteering too, and we'll continue to call

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Speaker 1: it out and hopefully we can get some some action

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Speaker 1: in terms of getting this thing moving again in Congress. Yep,

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Speaker 1: all right, guys. So there is a Major League baseball

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Speaker 1: lockout that you all might know a lot about and

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Speaker 1: I am sort of vaguely aware of but have no

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Speaker 1: real understanding of the details of. So in order to

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Speaker 1: understand what is going on, bringing in a great friend

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Speaker 1: of mine and also front of the show, j D. Schulten.

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Speaker 1: He is a senior advisor to the Economics Liberty Project.

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Speaker 1: He is a former congressional candidate, and he is also

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Speaker 1: a former minor league baseball player. Great to see JD.

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Speaker 1: Good to see you man. Great to be back on here. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: All right, So for people like me who have very

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Speaker 1: little understanding, can you just walk us through how we

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Speaker 1: got to today. Yeah, So we're on day ninety seven

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Speaker 1: of the owner's lockout of the Major League players and

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Speaker 1: the collective bargaining Agreement is what they're arguing about. It

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Speaker 1: ran out three months ago, a little over three months ago,

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of what they're working out right now.

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Speaker 1: But it's very symbolic of what's happening in the rest

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Speaker 1: of the nation. We have these owners who are our billionaires,

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Speaker 1: who pay less taxes than their millionaire players, and less

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Speaker 1: taxes than probably most of the workers who work at

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Speaker 1: the sas, and they're asking for more money. And the commissioner,

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Speaker 1: who is actually picked by the owners, that's the only

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Speaker 1: way he gets the job, is that that position. Originally

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Speaker 1: intent was to grow the game, and now it seems

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Speaker 1: like it's just to maximize the profits for the owners.

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of where we're at right now. So okay,

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Speaker 1: let's explain this then further. So the lockout is happening.

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Speaker 1: Opening day has been pushed. Now, what is the justification

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Speaker 1: on their end or they do they even have? When

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Speaker 1: are they just simply retreating saying that the MLB union

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Speaker 1: is being unreasonable. That's their line, And so tonight actually

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Speaker 1: is the is another deadline. They've They've passed many deadlines,

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Speaker 1: but tonight might be the last deadline. To get a

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Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty two game season in, and so

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Speaker 1: that's one of the urgent things that we're seeing right now.

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Speaker 1: So one of the biggest things that we're seeing. The

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Speaker 1: hot topic is the luxury tax. So for a team

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Speaker 1: that has a salary, the combined salary of their team

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Speaker 1: of over two hundred and twenty million right now, they

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Speaker 1: get taxed on that. And so what the players want

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Speaker 1: is to bump that up because they want more salary

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Speaker 1: for the players, they want the good wages for their players.

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Speaker 1: And then on the other side, they're not anywhere near

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Speaker 1: where the players want to be. How much urgency is

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Speaker 1: there around this deadline to get the full season in.

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Speaker 1: I mean, as someone who knows nothing about this, it

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Speaker 1: seems like that would be a lot of pressure, Like

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Speaker 1: people would really want to be able to have all

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Speaker 1: of the games and be able to generate the revenue

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Speaker 1: from those games and all of that. But so what

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Speaker 1: is your sense of is that a really critical sort

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Speaker 1: of pressure point. I mean, there's a ton of pressure

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Speaker 1: I feel on Major League Baseball and the owners, and

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Speaker 1: we're seeing what's different now than what has happened in

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Speaker 1: the past is social media and the players are on

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Speaker 1: social media. In the past, you'd have this huge public

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Speaker 1: relations profile from Major League Baseball, but you wouldn't hear

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Speaker 1: too much from the player side. Now you're hearing straight

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Speaker 1: from these players, and that's a really big difference that

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Speaker 1: we're seeing right now. So one of the other issues

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Speaker 1: that I wish would get picked up more is the

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Speaker 1: anti competitiveness of some of these teams. So for some

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Speaker 1: of the Baltimore oriole fans, I apologize, but your owner

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Speaker 1: does not invest in your team, and yet he still

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Speaker 1: profits from this, and so the Players Association is trying

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Speaker 1: to challenge that. And that's one of the many parts

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Speaker 1: of this. As a fan in Iowa, we have six

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Speaker 1: minor league team or I'm sorry, we have six major

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Speaker 1: League Baseball teams that we are blacked out of. So

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Speaker 1: you can buy a subscription to Major League Baseball TV,

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Speaker 1: but we can't watch six of the teams because we're

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Speaker 1: blacked out of it. And Iowa doesn't have a Major

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Speaker 1: League Baseball team. We got to grow the game, and

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Speaker 1: what we're really getting a sense is it's all about

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Speaker 1: the profits. It's not about growing the game. And this

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Speaker 1: is kind of part of the frustration that we're seeing

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Speaker 1: minor league baseball players. They're not unionized, and on the

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Speaker 1: average they make about ten to fifteen thousand dollars a year.

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Speaker 1: Last year, it came out quite extensively on social media

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Speaker 1: that a lot of them sleep in their cars because

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Speaker 1: their whole contract goes to pay in rents. But then

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Speaker 1: when they get brought up to the next level, then

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Speaker 1: they have to pay that rent to And so there's

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Speaker 1: a great group called Advocates for Minor Leaguers that I've

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Speaker 1: been associated with that we're really trying to push for

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Speaker 1: minor leaguers rights as well. Wow, what has been that

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Speaker 1: fan response to all of this? JD. You know, I

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Speaker 1: think it's a huge backlash on Major League Baseball and

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Speaker 1: it's a shame. The other part of this, too is

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Speaker 1: you have these owners or these groups it's been three months.

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Speaker 1: For the first few months, they didn't meet for a

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Speaker 1: long time, and then it's this I think there's this

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Speaker 1: thing that's taught at business school these days, at some

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Speaker 1: of the elite schools, that you reject your reject and

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Speaker 1: then at the last minute you nail away, and that

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Speaker 1: seems to be what's happening in this situation. That is,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's just so terroriic just reiterate one more

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Speaker 1: time for the audience. What are these guys asking for?

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Speaker 1: I don't it's not a lot. Well, I mean the

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Speaker 1: difference is from these billionaire owners from getting an extra

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Speaker 1: million or two pretty much. I mean, that's about it,

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Speaker 1: and it's about the love of the game. It's about

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Speaker 1: growing the game. And here we are even like the

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Speaker 1: content creation that's happening around major League Baseball. One of

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Speaker 1: the best content that you can find on Twitter and

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Speaker 1: YouTube is pitching Ninja and he's not affiliated with Major

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Speaker 1: League Baseball. How does major League Baseball not grow the

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Speaker 1: game and create all this content because the fan base

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Speaker 1: is out there, we've been more excited about this. And

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Speaker 1: then you have the owner coming out saying, oh woe

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Speaker 1: is us the owners, it's a bad investment to invest

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Speaker 1: in owning a baseball team. Well, that was debunked right away.

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Speaker 1: And this we have a commissioner who doesn't seem to

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Speaker 1: love the game the way that so many of us

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Speaker 1: fans do. And that's just really a shame right now,

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Speaker 1: that's an important point. You know, after two years COVID,

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Speaker 1: the disruption, American Desert, I don't even like baseball, but

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Speaker 1: American deservice base Okay, so I like going to get

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Speaker 1: actually talking about the Orioles. I've been to a few

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Speaker 1: Orioles games that I really had a great time at.

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Speaker 1: And also minor league baseball is super fun to go

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Speaker 1: to to see your local teams, and I think, listen,

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Speaker 1: whether you a baseball fan or not, it also tells,

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Speaker 1: as you point out, a bigger story about how greed

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Speaker 1: sort of corrupts, you know, just the basic joy of

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Speaker 1: being able to enjoy a sport and go out on

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Speaker 1: a beautiful day, and you know that's all being taken

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Speaker 1: away by people who want extra millions added to their

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Speaker 1: profit margin. So thanks for helping us understand. JD. It's

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Speaker 1: always great to see you. Thanks man, appreciate it. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: All Right, guys, we got a little thing cross our

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Speaker 1: radar that we just had to bring to you. Let's

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Speaker 1: go ahead and throw this up on the screen. Meta's

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Speaker 1: Cheryl Sandberg of Lean in Fame boldly proclaimed somewhat a

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Speaker 1: historically here that in the context of Ukraine and Russia,

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Speaker 1: no two countries run by women would ever go to war.

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Speaker 1: Let me give you the sentence here, because this is

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Speaker 1: quite astonishing from the CNBC article, and kudos to whoever

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Speaker 1: wrote this wonderful this wonderful sentence here, No two countries

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Speaker 1: run by women would ever go to war. Sandberg told

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Speaker 1: CNBC's Hadley Gamble in Dubai on Tuesday during a fireside

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Speaker 1: at a Cardier event make marking International Women's Day. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if that one sentence doesn't tell you everything about like

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Speaker 1: the worst kind of white feminism on the planet, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what does Hey, Cheryl, how many women are

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Speaker 1: in the Emirate of Dubai. Do they rule the amirand

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Speaker 1: how are they treated over? Oh right, okay, I guess

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Speaker 1: she didn't say much about that one cartie event at

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Speaker 1: the International Women's Day Forum in Dubai. That alone is,

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Speaker 1: you know, just the height of hypocrisy. I was telling

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Speaker 1: you this, I don't know what it is about, like

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Speaker 1: lean in two thousands, Obama era feminism. It is so

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Speaker 1: goddamn cringe. And I remember it, you know, I remember

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Speaker 1: girls who I was coming up with, you know, with

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Speaker 1: the signs in their cubicles or whatever with Sheryl Sandberg

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Speaker 1: like lean in, like be a boss lady and all

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Speaker 1: it was all, you know, it was like hillary Ism.

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Speaker 1: You know, in a single thing. By the ways, this

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Speaker 1: is what radicalized me. I'm not bossy. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 1: I forgot about Bobby a bossy lady. Oh my god, unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: There's something so dumb about a the Dubai thing historically

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Speaker 1: completely inaccurate into a Gandhi Golda mayor and Margaret Thatcher.

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Speaker 1: This is just in the nineteen hundreds who launched wars

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Speaker 1: as female leaders of their countries. Go back even further,

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Speaker 1: I have to say, I mean, thank god Hillary Clinton

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Speaker 1: it's not president right now, because she's running around every

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Speaker 1: day trying to say the worst possible things. You know, Oh,

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Speaker 1: let's have cyber war with Russia. That'd be a great idea.

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Speaker 1: Oh you know what went really well for us is

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Speaker 1: when we armed the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan. That's the model

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Speaker 1: that we should follow here. So yeah, I am very

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Speaker 1: grateful that we don't have that particular woman president right now. No,

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Speaker 1: you know, the leaning thing. So when I ran for Congress,

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Speaker 1: you guys, most of you know this story, like I

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Speaker 1: am on track for a complete and utter loss in

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Speaker 1: the tea party wave of twenty ten. And then at

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Speaker 1: the end they released these photos me at a party

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Speaker 1: becomes this whole stupid, big story, which is so embarrassingly

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Speaker 1: tame at this point, but I responded to it instead

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Speaker 1: of being like embarrassed and apologizing, I was like, listen,

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Speaker 1: if this was a dude, you all wouldn't care. And also,

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Speaker 1: nobody cares about this sort of stuff. They care about

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Speaker 1: what's happening with their family were that's still in the

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Speaker 1: midst of this recession and all of this, And there

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Speaker 1: was a very positive response, and that's how I end

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Speaker 1: up going on MSNBC, going on Fox News and get

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Speaker 1: swept up into like cable news media. So it had

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Speaker 1: this very like feminist angle to it. So that was

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Speaker 1: the space that I was occupying there. And so when

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Speaker 1: I was at MSNBC, one of the things that I

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Speaker 1: was actually most proud of is I created my own

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Speaker 1: streaming show, which was completely buried and you know, nobody

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Speaker 1: could ever find and therefore wasn't successful. But it was

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Speaker 1: about trying to focus on how feminism was not inclusive

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Speaker 1: at all of the working class and like ignored all

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Speaker 1: of these problems at you know, for ordinary people. And

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Speaker 1: so when Cheryl Sandberg came out with this lean in thing,

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Speaker 1: this was just the perfect distillation of the whole problem

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Speaker 1: with this type of feminism where it's like you're a

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Speaker 1: billion and her feminist answers were like I build a

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Speaker 1: nursery onto my C suite office and had my nanny

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Speaker 1: there all day. It's like, who is this for? Like

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Speaker 1: who are you speaking to right now? And so for

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Speaker 1: me and my own political trajectory, Cheryl Sandberg and lean

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Speaker 1: in was actually very clarifying about what parts I wanted

430
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: nothing to do with whatsoever. And I think it was

431
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 1: clarifying for a lot of people in that way. So

432
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: I think we should thank her for that service that

433
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 1: she's done of exposing just how hollow and how much

434
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: it's of politics to benefit like a particular subset of

435
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: elite women, elite mostly white women. But yeah, she's still

436
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 1: apparently out there peddling that she hasn't adjusted. She's still

437
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 1: out there peddling the same stuff, even though like Facebook

438
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: is this also sort of discredited company at this sho

439
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: so craty, you know, for our younger listeners, if you're

440
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 1: like gen Z, you don't know how this was everywhere

441
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: like being a boss lady, every book, Barnes and Noble,

442
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: like this was popular culture at the time, so it

443
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: was roundly mocked good and so maybe we've come a

444
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: long way as a country who consider we'll consider that progress.

445
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: I can tell you this, if I'd been saying what

446
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: I'm saying right now back then, it would have been

447
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 1: a old oh yeah yeah. But then again, Kamala Harris's

448
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: vice president, so we can't count too much progress. Very

449
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: true anyway, guys, thanks for watching. Love More for you later. Hey, guys,

450
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: our friend Marsha Kosloff. He's going to be conducting interviews

451
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: with experts and newsmakers for us here on the Breaking

452
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 1: Points channel. We're really excited. Yep, here it is, Hey,

453
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 1: Breaking Points. This is Marshall Kosloff. You probably recognized me

454
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: from our State of the Union coverage earlier this week.

455
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: If you don't know me from there, I am Sager's

456
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: co host at the Realignment. It's our podcast. You should

457
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: go check it out. We've also had a great episode

458
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: of The Guest today, so you could check that out

459
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: as well. Two afterwards. So here's the deal. I'm going

460
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: to start doing content for Breaking Points. We're interested in

461
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: speaking with authors, figures, activists, politicians who can give us

462
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: a bit of a deeper angle on the news and

463
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 1: what's going on there. So to kick off this title

464
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: of segment, I immediately thought of Michael Schellenberger. Michael has

465
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: written a book, Apocalypse Never it's about climate change, energy policy,

466
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: and he just wrote a really interesting piece for Very

467
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: Weiss's Substack called the West Green Delusions Empowered Putin. So, Michael,

468
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: welcome to Breaking Points. Thanks for having me point out

469
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: at the start of your piece that there are a

470
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: variety of angles one could take when arguing for why

471
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: exactly Putin was able to invade Ukraine, but you take

472
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 1: a specific angle overlaid to energy policy. What's your argument. Well,

473
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: the argument is that the point that I start with

474
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: is just that Putin was not deterred by Europe or

475
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: the West from invading Ukraine. He did not obviously fear

476
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 1: economic sanctions, and he would turned out to be right

477
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: not to fear them because they carved out energy exports,

478
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 1: which is the main way that Russia gets hard foreign currency. So, yes,

479
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: we've heard a lot about sanctions on banking, but as

480
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: long as Europe, as long as Russia can sell its coal,

481
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: oil and natural gas to Europe in the world, it's

482
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 1: going to continue to build to finance its war, finance

483
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 1: its economy. And the reason for that, I point out

484
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: is that you know, just fifteen years ago, Europe produced

485
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: three times more natural gas than Russia currently exports. Those

486
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: fortunes have shifted. Climate activists in Europe prevented the expansion

487
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: of natural gas production, including by fracking. Turns out there's

488
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: actually quite a bit of shale in Europe that it

489
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: could have been using, and it just grew heavily dependent

490
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: on Russia. And so in fact, the role that Russia

491
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: has and its control over European energy supplies is only

492
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: going to increase. I believe that in the coming months,

493
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: I think it's possible, if not probable, that President Biden

494
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: will restrict oil exports. If he does that, that will

495
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 1: further strengthen the hand of Putin to be able to

496
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 1: reward nations that are neutral or supportive of him with

497
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: oil exports. So you know, really, I think Putin is

498
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: playing a long game. He viewed taking Ukraine as essential

499
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 1: to Russia's survival. He viewed gaining control a significant amount

500
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,959
Speaker 1: of control and influence over Europe through energy applies as

501
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: central to that strategy, something I appreciate and the piece

502
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 1: was your description of Europe's energy mix when it comes

503
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: to energy sources. So could you describe what the energy

504
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: picture looks like in Western Europe and then what percentage

505
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: of that roughly is comprised of Russian dependency? Sure, I mean,

506
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: just to give you a sense of it, Germany depends

507
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: on Russia for over fifty percent of its natural gas

508
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: and oil for around twenty percent of its coal. In

509
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: the rest of Europe, you could just think of it

510
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: as about a third of Europe's energy imports coming from Russia.

511
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: That's more than enough for Russia to play a decisive role,

512
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: particularly when you consider how much of that energy is

513
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,479
Speaker 1: traded on the margins. So it's really you know, Russia

514
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: has just you know, one of the things, you know,

515
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: I point out is that just Europe just consumes significantly

516
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: more energy than it produces, and Russia produces significantly more

517
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: energy than it consumes. And that's not that hasn't always

518
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: been that way, you know, as I mentioned, that's really

519
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: been a change over the last two decades. And a

520
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: big part of the reason is that Europe has been

521
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: either shutting down its nuclear power plants, particularly in Germany,

522
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: or not building them, and it's also so. It's also so,

523
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: it's been basically depriving itself of two important low carbon

524
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: or zero carbon energy sources, supposedly in the name of

525
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: climate change, but that has resulted in Putin gaining a

526
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: stronger hand. You know. I think it's the equivalent of basically,

527
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: the West was soft its head. It's you know, the head,

528
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: Its head was in the clouds. Putin's feet were firmly

529
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: on the ground. Putin is focused on real politic and

530
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: I think Europe, like many in the West, were caught

531
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: up in delusions, utopian fantasies of harmonizing human societies with

532
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: nature through renewables. I think that we're at the end

533
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: of an era, not just the end of the post

534
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: Cold War era, but really the end of the post

535
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: war era. And I think Putin saw that coming and

536
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: the West did not. So as a person overally came

537
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: up in the environmental movement. It's not that you're arguing

538
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: against the usage of renewables here. That said, given the

539
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: harder edged energy discussion, your indicator or moving towards do,

540
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: what would you describe the present state of renewable energy,

541
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: clean energy that's not nuclear, and what mix In an

542
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: ideal world, would that look like sure? And you know,

543
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: renewables is not a great category because it combines so

544
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: many different technologies. But I'm a big defender of hydro

545
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: electric dams. Hydro electric dams were how we lifted much

546
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: of the American South out of poverty through the Tennessee

547
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: Valley Authority. It's a big source of energy for Europe,

548
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: particularly Northern Europe. Sweden has sort of the perfect electrical

549
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: grid because it's about forty percent nuclear and about fifty

550
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: percent hydro electric, and hydro has all sorts of advantages,

551
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: including to be able to ramp up and down to

552
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: meet demand. You know what you want from electricity in

553
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: general is you want supply and demand to be perfectly matched.

554
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: That's why electricity becomes cheap is that you don't have

555
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: to pay for the cost of storage. Every time you

556
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: take electricity out of the system or put it back in,

557
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: you're paying two energy penalties, which is very expensive. So

558
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: I'm a big supporter of hydroelectric dams. They can have

559
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: a big negative environmental impact, but they've been a way

560
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: that poor countries off themselves had a poverty. But when

561
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: you get to weather dependent renewables, particularly solar panels and

562
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: wind turbines, you start to run into much bigger problems.

563
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: The first one is just that they require significantly more

564
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: land than either natural gas or nuclear plants. Land is

565
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: actually quite scarce in Western Europe, more so certainly than

566
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: it is in the United States, but they need, you know,

567
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: somewhere between five hundred and eight hundred times more land.

568
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: The other problem is that we don't make solar panels

569
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: really in the West anymore. The vast majority, over ninety

570
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: percent of the raw materials for solar panels comes from China.

571
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: We now know that those solar panels became cheaper not

572
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: because of greater efficiencies and converting sunlight into electricity, but

573
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: rather because they're being made in factories that used conscripted

574
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: labor from weaker Muslims, which is a huge problem and

575
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: something that in fact the Biden administration in Congress has

576
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: been trying to figure out what to do to do about.

577
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: But then the other fundamental question is just that because

578
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: their weather dependent, you have to always have backup power.

579
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: You have to have one hundred percent backup power at

580
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: any time so that you when the sun doesn't shine,

581
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: the wind doesn't blow, you have something else to replace it.

582
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: And that's what we saw happen in Germany last year.

583
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: The first half of last year that just wasn't very

584
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: much wind, and so carbon emissions increased by twenty five percent. Similarly,

585
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: it's been a pretty low wind year across Europe, and

586
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: so that increased demand for natural gas, and it came

587
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: out of time when supplies were short. So we have

588
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: solar panels in our backyard. I don't have any spiritual

589
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: opposition to solar panels by any means, but I think

590
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: that we've kind of reached the limit, certainly in California

591
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: and in Germany and much of the Western world, in

592
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: terms of how much more renewables we can do. And

593
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: I think what the Ukraine situation shows and the russ

594
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: situation shows is that renewables just sort of sit on

595
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: top of your electrical grid. They don't replace fossil fuels.

596
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: They can substitute for some of the fuel that's used,

597
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: but you still need those fossil fuel power plants operating

598
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: or some other power plant nuclear plants for example, to

599
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: have cheap and reliable electricity. So you critique a lot

600
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: of what you're describing as head in the Clouds green

601
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: ideology and the specific case of Germany. What's so interesting

602
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: to this mix, though, is that the German decision, I

603
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: think this is where the audience is to be most

604
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: sympathetic to this argument was driven by Fukushima twenty eleven,

605
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: This fear of a nuclear energy This isn't just a

606
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: three mile island issue in the seventies. This is a

607
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: dangerous source of power. Separate from the climate change argument,

608
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: separate from the nuclear waste argument. And then of course

609
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: in the news just you know, earlier this week you

610
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: had the incident at the Ukrainian nuclear plant as Russian

611
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: forces invaded. Now, at this point it's been stated that

612
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: the threat was overblown relative to what we saw in

613
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: the images. It's important to be grounded with that. But

614
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: I just know for a fact a lot of the

615
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: audience members are going to have non climate change, not

616
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: even heading the clouds renewable arguments, but just basic safety arguments.

617
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: How do you think we should sort through that dynamic? Yeah?

618
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: I mean, look, nuclear is a really serious technology. It's

619
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: primary purpose and its first purpose was as weapons. They're

620
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: devastating weapons. We should be scared of nuclear weapons. That's

621
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 1: how nuclear weapons work. The word deterrence means to scare away,

622
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: so we know that nuclear weapons are absolutely terrifying. They

623
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: are one of the few ways that we can imagine

624
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: the end of human civilization, so everybody has an absolute

625
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: right to be concerned nuclear weapons. We've also known since

626
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: nineteen forty five that we can't just get rid of them.

627
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: That two countries that have nuclear weapons and try to

628
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: get rid of them but then go to war would

629
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: just reconstruct their weapons. So we're either, you know, it's

630
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: either a cursed blessing or a blessed curse that we

631
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: have this really powerful technology. The flip side of it

632
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:24,959
Speaker 1: is that it's a relatively cheap, reliable source of zero

633
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: carbon power. In my view and in the view of

634
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: many other people, nuclear is really the only way that

635
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: you really get to sustainability because with nuclear you can

636
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: have one hundred percent carbon free electricity, plus you can

637
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: produce fresh water from your oceans, and you can produce

638
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: hydrogen gas, which unless we're going to just become newly

639
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: dependent on lithium imported from Bolivia and other parts of

640
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: the world, we're ultimately going to need for transportation but

641
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: also potentially heating and cooking, So nuclear offers all these

642
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: benefits on the energy side. Obviously, anytime there's some sort

643
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: of military action around a nuclear power plant, as we

644
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: saw last night, people are alarmed. I don't think. I

645
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 1: think there was very few cases where panic is merited.

646
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 1: Panic of course means unthinking action of behavior. We saw

647
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 1: some of that panic, but the Russians, of course, quickly

648
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: took the plant. The fire was in an administrative building.

649
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:21,919
Speaker 1: There's just a lot of things about nuclear that people

650
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: still don't understand, Like, you know, a power plant is

651
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: the whole site. It's not just the reactors. The reactors

652
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: are weird, the nuclear fuel rods where the atoms are

653
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: splitting creating heat. They were never threatened. There was never

654
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: a loss of coolant, which is how reactors melt down.

655
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: So it was worth I was tweeting about it last night.

656
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: I'll probably write something about it. So I do think

657
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: heightened concern around nuclear is important. But I think that

658
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: the panic has been really dangerous. And you know, I

659
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: think the bottom line is if you want to be

660
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: less dependent on Russian exports, if Europe wants to have

661
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 1: greater energy security, it's going to need to keep operating

662
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: nuclear plants and build some additional ones. I will say

663
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: the technology is improving. I'm not a huge fan of

664
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: radical changes to the design of nuclear plants because I

665
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: do think that that can make them more expensive. But

666
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: we have increasingly good fuels. We're not quite there yet

667
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: with the fuels being melted down proof, but that's where

668
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: it's headed. So the holy grail really is that you

669
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: start to get nuclear plants that can withstand meltdowns that

670
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: go into existing nuclear power, existing nuclear power reactors. So

671
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 1: what's this is the question on everyone's mind, no doubt.

672
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,800
Speaker 1: There are two pressing concerns the what can have left

673
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: right center. Either one, you think that there is a

674
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: climate emergency that nuclear power can help by being this

675
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: zero carbon source of energy. Even natural gas is clearer

676
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 1: than coal, so that also helps that in the right

677
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,919
Speaker 1: direction too, so as that issue, and then there's also

678
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: the issue of wow, there's a security concern when it

679
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: comes to Russian dependency. So when you're talking about this

680
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: diversifying away from carbon, building more secure type of clear

681
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: energy than just renewables, then when you're talking about pivoting

682
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: away from Russia, how quickly can this come about, Especially

683
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: in the European context, not quickly enough. I think we

684
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: can all agree. I mean, that's why you know there's this.

685
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 1: On the one hand, you're sort of like, yeah, we

686
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,959
Speaker 1: should stop importing Russian oil. That sounds like a really

687
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: moral thing to do. How could you not support that?

688
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: And then you realize, well, because it could event it

689
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: could really cause oil prices to rise very high. If

690
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: oil prices rise to two hundred dollars a barrel, you know,

691
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: high oil prices are often with triggers global recessions. Global

692
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: recessions are really bad for people and really harmful, So

693
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,919
Speaker 1: you don't want to have a global recession. Expensive energy

694
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: makes everything in the economy expensive, that's the bottom line.

695
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: So it will take some time. Now you can get

696
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: we can in the United States because we're blessed with

697
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: a lot of shale that we're fracking for oil and gas.

698
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 1: You can wrap ramp up oil and gas production within

699
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: a matter of weeks. The problem is that we don't

700
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: have the refineries need to be retrofitted to handle more

701
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: of our own light suite crud that comes out of

702
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: the shales. Also, you need the liquefied natural gas or

703
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 1: LNG terminals for cooling the gas and liquefying it and

704
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: then putting on special ships and moving it to Europe.

705
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 1: Those things take time. I mean, I think we saw

706
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: over the last decade so called climate activists blocking pipelines,

707
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: blocking LNG terminals, preventing the expansion of oil and gas

708
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: in the United States. I think that was a huge mistake. Ironically,

709
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: one of the consequences of the natural gas shortage over

710
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: the last six months has been that the whole world

711
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: has burned more coal, which produces twice as much carbon

712
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 1: emissions as natural gas does. Nuclear plants similarly, they take

713
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: you know, if you're moving. If you have experience building them,

714
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 1: they can be built in as little as five years,

715
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 1: But if you don't have experience, they can go ten

716
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: years or longer. So we're not in a great position.

717
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: I think that the bottom line is that more needs

718
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 1: to be done to get oil and gas producing. The

719
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,720
Speaker 1: Biden administration has made this point that there's a bunch

720
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: of permits that the oil and gas industry has they

721
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: don't appear to be using. I think there's people in

722
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,919
Speaker 1: the oil and gas industry that are enjoying the high

723
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: prices that want to make the money, But there are

724
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: national security concerns here, and I would like to see

725
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: the Biden administration doing more to encourage that production. In

726
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: terms of nuclear in Europe, I think it's a no

727
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: brainer that they should stop shutting down their nuclear plants.

728
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: It's also it appears to be the case that the

729
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: three nuclear reactors that Germany shut down at the end

730
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: of last year, that nothing has been done to them

731
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: other than powering them down, and that means they could

732
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: be restarted. Well, that's a significant amount of electricity. You

733
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: think of it as about a million homes can be

734
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: powered per reactor, so you're talking about a significant amount

735
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,439
Speaker 1: of additional energy. But look we saw in Germany they're

736
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 1: saying they're willing to burn more coal in order to

737
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: use their dependence on Russian energy imports. So you know,

738
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: it's it's the worst of many options. But ultimately, just

739
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: we're going to have to produce much more energy domestically

740
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: and encourage Europe to do the same thing. And to

741
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 1: sum everything up, I would put you in this school

742
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 1: of thought that's climate realism when it comes to these things.

743
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: How would we see as we have to balance a

744
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: couple of things here. We have to balance once again

745
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 1: environmental risk. So this is what you're talking about hydro

746
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: electric power. We're talking about this with nuclear waste. You

747
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: have to balance security risk. When it comes to putent

748
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: energy independence, then you have to balance, of course, just

749
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: the need to have a proper energy mixed itself. How

750
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: do you think we can come about and not just

751
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,839
Speaker 1: like the sheer percentages, because that's hard to calculate. Every

752
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 1: country is different. What is the mental slash ideological approach

753
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: we should take to coming up with that answer in

754
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: each of our cases. Yeah, I mean I think I

755
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 1: like the term of climate realist. I also think I

756
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: think similarly, you know, it's to have a calm view,

757
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 1: you know, alert, but calm towards these issues. That includes

758
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 1: nuclear you know, on climate change, you know, climate change

759
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: is real. All also being equal, we shouldn't want temperatures

760
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: to rise. That means we should try to keep emissions

761
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: as low as possible, but not at the expense of

762
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 1: our energy security. A number of climate trends are actually

763
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 1: going in the right direction. The United States reduced its

764
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: carbon emissions twenty two percent between twenty five and twenty twenty.

765
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: That was almost That was mostly due to the switch

766
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: from coal to natural gas. We've also seen declining natural

767
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: disasters of the last twenty years, just because societies are

768
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: becoming more resilient. So again, we don't want to see

769
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 1: high temperatures, but that's going to mean doing more natural gas,

770
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: not less. Similarly, with nuclear, nuclear is super sensitive technology.

771
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: It does pose all sorts of risks. You know, it

772
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: turns out that the operation of nuclear power plants it

773
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: is the safest way to make electricity. But it's also

774
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: the case that nuclear weapons are some of the most

775
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: dangerous objects on Earth. But I don't think that either

776
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: climate change or nuclear are best dealt with in this

777
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 1: kind of panicky and manic and somewhat hysterical mode that

778
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: we've been dealing with them, you know, really nuclear for

779
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: seventy five years, but climate change for last thirty. I

780
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: think that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is the end of

781
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: an era. You know, it's clearly the end of the

782
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: post Cold War era, but I think it's also the

783
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: end of the post war era. We appears to be

784
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: that the whole world is reverting back to national to

785
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: nationalism and national trading blocks. And I think that in

786
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: some ways it's unfortunate, but in some ways, that's just

787
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 1: the reality of it. And I think those of us

788
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: that really love, you know, liberal democracy, that love Western civilization,

789
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,760
Speaker 1: that don't want to live in a Chinese or Russian

790
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: style dictatorship with curtailed freedoms and rights, I think we do.

791
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: It is a time for us to get a bit

792
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: more hard headed and cleared eyed. In terms of the

793
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: need to increase domestic energy production. I think what we

794
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: saw with the frakking Revolution is that yeah, there are

795
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: some negative consequences, but overall, natural gas is just a

796
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: superior fuel to coal and nuclear all else being equal,

797
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 1: is a superior way to generate energy than oil, gas

798
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: or coal. So I think getting our heads around the

799
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 1: fact that you know, nuclear is better than gas, and

800
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: gas is better than coal, and we should be producing

801
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: more of them, certainly for ourselves but also for our allies,

802
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 1: that's the right direction to go in both in terms

803
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: of climate change air pollution as well as energy security. Well,

804
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 1: I suggest everyone, if they'd like to learn more Michael's work,

805
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: check out his piece at Barry Wise's substack on Like

806
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: most things this day, this is not paywild, so you

807
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: can actually go riad it is, whether it too. Michael

808
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us on Breaking Points.

809
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me Marshall. Hey, guys, Kyle Kolinsky is

810
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: letting us post some of the clips from his channel

811
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: that we think you guys will really love in the

812
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: Breaking Points community on our channel. Yep, let's get to it.

813
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 1: So Laura Ingram could not help herself. In the same

814
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: way that she bends over backwards to defend the uber

815
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: wealthy here in the US, she now has taken that

816
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 1: role on for Russia as well. She's gonna simp for

817
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: the Russian billionaire oligarchs. Let's take a look at what

818
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: she said. If we could expeditiously freeze every oligarch's luxury assets,

819
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,919
Speaker 1: would that really stop the suffering of the Ukrainian people

820
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: that's happening right now? Do we think Putin's gonna wake

821
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: up and say next week and he's gonna get up

822
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: there to just say, you know that Chalet and gestopped

823
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 1: was so important to me. I think you think I'll

824
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: call Zelensky and send the troops home. No More importantly,

825
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: we have to ask, is there a possibility that this

826
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: could all backfire and make things even worse for Ukraine?

827
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: Is anyone the Biden administration even gaming any of this out,

828
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: you wonder, So let's be real. As satisfying as it

829
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: may be to see these four hundred foot luxury liners padlocked.

830
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: Chasing down oligarchs is like swatting away mosquitoes when a

831
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: cobra is about to strike your leg. That is not

832
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 1: true at all. So she asked a question, Hey, is

833
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: this really gonna make it better? My answer is potentially absolutely,

834
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: Because Okay, the way Russia works is you have you know,

835
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: Putin is the leader, he is the president, and there

836
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 1: are a bunch of oligarchs that control various industries and

837
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: they have a phenomenal amount of power and wealth, and

838
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: that power is derived from Vlaimir Putin's blessing and so,

839
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: but the power works both ways, obviously, because if you

840
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: have these giant industries that these people run, you got

841
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: to keep them happy too. You have no choice if

842
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: you're a Putin. And so if you squeeze them out,

843
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: if you seize their various yachts, seese their offshore bank accounts,

844
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: sees their Italian villas and condos, make it so that

845
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: they can't fly out of Russia if you crack down

846
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: on them, because they are part of Putin's inner circle. Well,

847
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: after a while, it's sort of like a divide and

848
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: conquer thing. Well, you're gonna have a split among the oligarchs.

849
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: You may have some oligarchs that are still loyal to

850
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: Putin and they blame the West for everything that's happening here.

851
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: But you might have others who are like a dog.

852
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: Before you invaded Ukraine, we were kind of chilling over here.

853
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: We're billionaire oligarchs. We had a sweet deal, we had

854
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: a sweet gig. We don't have to worry about anything.

855
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: We don't have to worry about somebody seizing our yachts.

856
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 1: And now all of a sudden, we do. And that's

857
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: on you. And so if you get enough of them

858
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: to turn on him, well then some things might start

859
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: to happen. So, now is it guaranteed, Yrk No, of

860
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: course not. But I also think it's a good idea

861
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: even if it doesn't squeeze out Putin. I love the

862
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 1: idea that we're laying the precedent of, like cracking down

863
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 1: on the obscene amounts of wealth that the oligarchs have.

864
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,280
Speaker 1: And also we should start calling us billionaires oligarchs because

865
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 1: it's a very similar thing and the income and wealth

866
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 1: and equality is almost as bad here as it is there.

867
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: I think there are some stats where it's actually worse here,

868
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: and so I think that's more what Laura Ingram is

869
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,760
Speaker 1: concerned about. She's concerned about the precedent that this sets.

870
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, wait, wha wait, We're just gonna seize

871
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: billionaire yachts and houses and bank accounts and things of

872
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: that nature. Whoa wha wha, wha wha wha what if that?

873
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: What if that comes here? To which I say, yummy,

874
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: and might tell me I think that's awesome. Well, then

875
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: she says, is seizing stuff gonna make it worse for Ukraine?

876
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: Absolutely not. Now, I will say all of these things

877
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: that I'm describing to go after putin the oligarchs, you know,

878
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: his confidence, the government, the military. That's one thing. As

879
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 1: soon as you start doing sanctions that hurt Russian civilians,

880
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 1: and by the way we are doing that, we are, well,

881
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 1: then I'm out. I want nothing to do with that,

882
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: because you're doing collective punishment. You're blaming all Russians for

883
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,479
Speaker 1: the actions of a specific Russian or specific Russians. And

884
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 1: there's bigotry in that. There's xenophobia in that that's totally unfair.

885
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: So now we've turned around and sanctioned a lot of

886
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: the people who are literally out in the streets getting

887
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 1: arrested for protesting the war. By the way, now over

888
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 1: four thousand people in Russia have been arrested for protesting

889
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: the war. So all these brave people who are on

890
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: the side of peace, now they get punished because they

891
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: happen to live on the same patch of dirt as

892
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin. So is it possible that sanctions go too far? Absolutely?

893
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 1: Have we already passed that line. Absolutely, But you know,

894
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: my concern is for innocent people who are burying the

895
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: brunt of this. My concern is for those who had

896
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 1: nothing to do with it and they're being cracked down on.

897
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: My concern is not for Putin and is not for

898
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 1: the oligarchs. Throw the book at them, do everything under

899
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: the sun, try to do a divide and conquer strategy

900
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 1: from within the halls of power. So we'll see, we'll

901
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 1: see how it works out. I love those sanctions in particular,

902
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 1: the EU is getting real tough with those particular sanctions.

903
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: The US has gone too far. I mean, we shut

904
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: Master Card and visa now out of Russia. I mean

905
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: that affects so many instant people that had nothing to

906
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: do with this. A lot of the swift banking sanctions

907
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,720
Speaker 1: were implemented, well, Russia immediately switched to the Chinese equivalent

908
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 1: of that system. You know there's you weren't able to

909
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: use Apple pay or Google Pay in the subway at Moscow.

910
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 1: What did those people have to do with what Putin did? Nothing?

911
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: And we're doing collective punishment. So again it's gone too far.

912
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 1: But notice specifically who she's simping for here. It is

913
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: billionaire oligarchs. She brought up specifically yachts as if that's

914
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,399
Speaker 1: the thing she has an issue with. I don't know, man,

915
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 1: season the yachts goes too far. No, seizing the yachts

916
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: is making me hard. Very exciting partnership to announce here

917
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: with James Lee of fifty one forty nine. He's somebody

918
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 1: that Crystal and I have followed on YouTube for a

919
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: long time and he's going to be doing some videos

920
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: for us here. James, it is great to see you

921
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: and introduce you to the audience. Thanks for joining us, man, Hey,

922
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: thank you thank you for having for having me. Absolutely

923
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:28,800
Speaker 1: why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself.

924
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: You and I talked a little bit about this previously

925
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: before you decided to come on. Who are you? Why

926
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: have you decided to make all these awesome videos on YouTube? No,

927
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: that's a great question, Sagara. I think, well, I see

928
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: myself kind of as a I would say, a citizen journalist.

929
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 1: My background is in business. I still have a day job,

930
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: but I think it's really important that we all play

931
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 1: a role, an active role in understanding the actors and

932
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 1: levers that move our society to hold them accountable. So

933
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 1: that's why I decided to talk our a YouTube channel

934
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: where I talk about different topics relating to business, politics, society.

935
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,439
Speaker 1: I try to break down different issues to find out,

936
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 1: you know, what's important, the context, the motive, the and

937
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: segrastructures that are happening in our society, you know, because

938
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of what I would say

939
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: manufactured outrage that happens in the legacy press that works

940
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 1: for divide us. So just trying to add a voice

941
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 1: in the opposite direction. So you know, I think that

942
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: you know, kind of maybe a lot of what you

943
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: guys are all about. Yeah, it totally aligns with what

944
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: we're all about, especially that idea of the citizen journalists,

945
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: because of course, core to our beliefs here is like

946
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: the leads have gotten a lot of things wrong, and

947
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: yet they want to keep all the power themselves. They

948
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: want to tell the population like, you can't possibly understand

949
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 1: what's going on out there, just let us handle it,

950
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: whether it's the National Security State, whether it's the FED,

951
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 1: whether it's any of the people who hold power here

952
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: in this town. And what you're doing is a sort

953
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,879
Speaker 1: of direct response to that, to say, no, we can

954
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: delve into these issues, we can understand what's going on,

955
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 1: and there's huge stakes for all of us involved, and

956
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 1: it's our responsibility to be engaged. So it's very much

957
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: in line with what we're doing here full disclosure. The

958
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 1: way that we found you was that you made a

959
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: really lovely video about us at a branding point, and

960
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: we're like, this is what you're saying what ego feels

961
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 1: amazing right now, And then we watch the rest of

962
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,320
Speaker 1: your content and we're like, oh, guy is really great.

963
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: And I think it's also fair to say, I mean,

964
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: this isn't your main job, but you know, you're the

965
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 1: type of creator that if you had started at a

966
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: different time in YouTube's history when it was more of

967
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: a free and open marketplace, you're you would have, you know,

968
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 1: grown phenomenally because the content you create is so high quality,

969
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: it's so well researched, it's well edited, it's well produced,

970
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,240
Speaker 1: it's well put together. You do a great job presenting

971
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 1: the information. And yet YouTube is no longer a free

972
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: and open marketplace. So we're hoping that you know, for

973
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 1: you that it helps give a boost to your channel

974
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 1: and what you're doing there because more people need eyeballso on.

975
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 1: You know, you've got content. Content here is web free.

976
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: A giant lie is the media tricking you into hating

977
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan Starbucks. The fight is just beginning, so really

978
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: great and important content. Hopefully we can give a lift

979
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 1: to you. And I know our audience is gonna love

980
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: what you have in store for us. So with that

981
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: being said, you have put together your first offering for

982
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: our audience. Just talk to us about your inspiration and

983
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: what they're about to see. Yeah, well thanks for all

984
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:32,280
Speaker 1: those really kind, really kind words. But yeah, so today's peace.

985
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 1: You know, I think to set it up a little bit,

986
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: you know, you all see in corporations and how you know,

987
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the behavior that they've been

988
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:47,280
Speaker 1: kind of I would say, sorry, it's okay, just come

989
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 1: out of the top, yeah, restart your answer. Okay, restart

990
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 1: the ns Okay, sorry, yeah, I knew that was gonna

991
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,879
Speaker 1: happen at some point. Okay, it's all right, yeah, all right, Well,

992
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 1: thank you so much for all the kind words there.

993
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 1: So today's piece that I have for you guys is about,

994
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 1: you know, to set it up a little bit of

995
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: the context, as I would deem corporations a lot of

996
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: their behaviors being evil, greedy, to say, maybe anti humanity,

997
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 1: and I just wanted to delve into more of why

998
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:14,800
Speaker 1: that's happening. And something that you know, I wanted to

999
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: look into was the NBA program, which a lot of

1000
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: Fortune five hundred SMP five hundred CEOs have, and I

1001
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: think that deserves a closer examination. What are they being taught.

1002
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: I myself went through that program, So I wanted to

1003
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,720
Speaker 1: share with you guys a little bit of the behind

1004
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 1: the scenes of maybe why corporations are potentially becoming more

1005
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 1: evil based on the education that these executives are receiving.

1006
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 1: I love it is yep. James, very excited to have

1007
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: you on board. Can't wait to watch this video. Are

1008
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: is the NBA program training our corporate elites to be sociopaths? Yes,

1009
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: let's take a look. My name is James Lee. Welcome

1010
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: to fifty one forty nine, and today I want to

1011
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: talk about the NBA program and why it's contributing to

1012
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: corporations becoming more evil. We've all seen or read the

1013
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 1: recent headlines business is booming, corporate profits are at an

1014
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: all time high, but at the very same time, workers

1015
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 1: who make those businesses run are being left behind, some

1016
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: even homeless, on food stamps or working multiple jobs. Also,

1017
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 1: recent upticks in high profile worker unionization efforts have corporations

1018
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: like Amazon scrambling to pay big bucks for quote union avoidance.

1019
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 1: A recent analysis estimated that private sector employers spend nearly

1020
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: three hundred and forty million dollars per year hiring union

1021
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: avoidance advisors to help them prevent employees from organizing in

1022
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 1: the workplace. Krick is stuff, to say the least, but interestingly,

1023
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 1: it hasn't always been this way. In nineteen fifty one,

1024
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 1: General Motors hired McKinsey consultant arch pad to conduct a

1025
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: study of executive compensation. The results appeared in Harvard Business Review,

1026
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 1: with the particular finding that from nineteen thirty nine to

1027
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty the pay of hourly workers had more than doubled,

1028
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: while that of top management had only risen thirty five percent.

1029
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: There are, of course, many reasons for this shift. We've

1030
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 1: seen massive consolidation in most major industries since the regulation

1031
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: began in the nineteen seventies, which has concentrated power in

1032
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: the hands of just a few mega corporations. Also, our

1033
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: lawmakers are in the pockets of big business special interests,

1034
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: as corporations and other wealthy donors can influence public policy

1035
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 1: by contributing more or less unlimited sums into political campaigns

1036
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 1: via things like super PACs and other dark money organizations

1037
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: with even less transparency. We've also seen the working class

1038
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 1: gutted by a bipartisan neoliberal consensus towards globalization and union busting,

1039
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: which subsequently has brought union membership to all time lows

1040
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: and has also crippled domestic production. But in the end,

1041
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: if we break it down, corporations are just people, people

1042
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: making choices and decisions, and those choices and decisions that

1043
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 1: they make could shaping the economy and are heavily influenced

1044
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 1: by factors such as education, training, and incentives. And that's

1045
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: what I want to focus on here today. According to

1046
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: Fortune magazine, about forty percent of SMP five hundred CEOs

1047
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 1: have an MBA in any given year. Just a bit

1048
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 1: of background. The MBA is what's known as a Master's

1049
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 1: in Business Administration and is the most common and prestigious

1050
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: advanced degree for those looking to get ahead in corporate America.

1051
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 1: Many elite universities have one of these programs, with tuition's

1052
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: costing students tens of thousands of dollars annually, with the

1053
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 1: hope that this investment will pay off in the form

1054
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 1: of a wide professional network and a good paying job.

1055
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 1: The NBA is basically a prerequisite to c suite offices

1056
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 1: at this point, as it is by far the degree

1057
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 1: with the most representation among top business executives. And I'm

1058
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: one of these people. Not a corporate executive, of course,

1059
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 1: but I am a graduate of New York University's Stern

1060
00:58:55,920 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 1: School of Business NBA program. So what are people me

1061
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: the quote future business leaders of America who could end

1062
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: up shaping the economy as well as the fortunes of

1063
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 1: millions of Americans. What are we being taught well? To start?

1064
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: Everything that is taught in any top tier MBA program

1065
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 1: today is more or less filtered through the lens of

1066
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: an ethost has summed up quite well by this nineteen

1067
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: seventy headline of this New York Times magazine article written

1068
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 1: by the famed American libertarian economists and statistician Milton Friedman,

1069
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 1: and that headline is entitled, the social responsibility of business

1070
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 1: is to increase its profits. It's every keen aspiring business

1071
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: executive's guiding light. Of course, yes, our curriculum does consist

1072
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: of core courses like finance, accounting, marketing, and business strategy,

1073
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 1: along with other elective courses that focus on different industries

1074
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 1: like entertainment, media, fintech, private equity, and many others. But

1075
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 1: every subject, every case sety seems to always boil down

1076
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 1: to this fundamental principle, this idea that management soul duty

1077
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 1: is to maximize shareholder value with zero or at the

1078
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 1: very least minimal regard for workers, communities, country, environment, or

1079
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 1: anything else for that matter. But once again, it wasn't

1080
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: always this way, as history can show us Harvard Business School,

1081
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 1: the first graduate business program, was founded in nineteen oh

1082
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 1: eight with the mission to treat business as a science,

1083
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 1: create a management profession on part or superior to medicine

1084
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 1: and law, and handle business problems in a socially constructive way.

1085
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: The first dean of HBS, Wallace B. Donham, defined it

1086
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: as quote the development, strengthening, and multiplication of socially minded

1087
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 1: businessmen as the central problem of business. Kind of a

1088
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: far cry from where we are today and the quote

1089
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: business leaders being turned out by elite NBA programs. So

1090
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 1: how exactly did advanced business education go off the rail?

1091
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 1: So to speak? While looking at this graft depicting the

1092
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 1: Dow jo In industrial average through the decades, US businesses

1093
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 1: suffered through a long period of economic stagnation during the

1094
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and early eighties, and this brought about sort

1095
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 1: of a thorough critique of American management, including American business education,

1096
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 1: a very kind of dramatic shift in narrative. I want

1097
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: to read to you a little bit from an article

1098
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 1: entitled how Neoclassical economics corrupted Business schools, corporations, and the

1099
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 1: Economy by Herbert Gintis and Raquesh Kurna, two prominent business

1100
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 1: scholars quote. Using the poor corporate performance of the nineteen

1101
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:30,080
Speaker 1: seventies as their backdrop, these takeover artists successfully recast the

1102
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 1: image of corporate managers and executives not as wise corporate

1103
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 1: statesmen trying to adjudicate the competing concerns of a variety

1104
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:41,959
Speaker 1: of corporate constituents, but rather as a self dealing, unaccountable

1105
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:46,439
Speaker 1: elite whose primary interest was taking advantage of weak shareholders

1106
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 1: to promote a leisurely lifestyle and exaggerated material gain. I

1107
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 1: think it's a little bit funny this image of a

1108
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 1: weak and impotent shareholder class. It does kind of show

1109
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 1: you how powerful a narrative can be if effectively sold

1110
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 1: to the public, particularly by elites who would happen to

1111
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 1: benefit greatly from the implementation of such an ideology. Oh Gally,

1112
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:12,480
Speaker 1: the abuses of shareholders take for managers and workers. What

1113
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:17,959
Speaker 1: a travesty. Back to Gentis and Corona quote. The revisionism

1114
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 1: surrounding materialism that took place during the nineteen eighties had

1115
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 1: a profound impact on business education. It represented an institutional

1116
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 1: shift away from the basic managerialism framework that had defined

1117
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 1: and informed business education and animated the managerial professionalization project

1118
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 1: from its start, eventually replacing it with a new conception

1119
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 1: that is never fully specified, but whose broad outlines can

1120
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 1: be understood as a conception of management as an agent

1121
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 1: of shareholders, the corporation as a nexus of individual contracts,

1122
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 1: and the primary purpose of the corporation being to maximize

1123
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:55,919
Speaker 1: shareholder value. All right, you might be thinking, what's wrong

1124
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 1: with that? You know, we are running a business after all,

1125
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 1: and don't necessarily disagree. It is important that a business

1126
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 1: make money so that it can pay its employees, make

1127
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 1: good products, invest in new things, new products, give back

1128
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 1: to the community, and make sure that shareholders are happy

1129
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 1: so they're going to invest more money in the future.

1130
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 1: But if we're talking about a holistic, socially responsible business

1131
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: education that teaches future leaders to consider other goals besides

1132
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 1: profit maximization, this is not it whatsoever. Now the next

1133
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 1: thing I'll share with you is purely anecdotal. But my

1134
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,680
Speaker 1: business strategy professor at NYU, and a lecture I remember

1135
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 1: really well, brought up this example of Shakeshack and how

1136
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 1: the tables in their new restaurants were sourced from recycled

1137
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 1: would and she talked about how stupid. The whole thing

1138
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 1: was because she felt that furnishing their restaurants with recycled

1139
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 1: wood would not help them sell more burgers and fries,

1140
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:56,480
Speaker 1: and that with each new store they were opening, they

1141
01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: were lowering their return on invested capital of financial metrics.

1142
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 1: Wall Street investors happened to hear a lot about I

1143
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 1: say wrong in that regard, and buying recycle tables probably

1144
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: won't help Shakeshack sell more burgers and fries, and will

1145
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 1: most certainly be more expensive than a normal non recycle table,

1146
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 1: but it is most certainly better for the environment. And

1147
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:23,560
Speaker 1: especially considering Shakeshack has opened hundreds of new locations and

1148
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:25,960
Speaker 1: stores in just the past few years, it seemed to

1149
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: be doing just fine, as is in another course at

1150
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 1: NYU called Managing Growing Companies, a course that quote seeks

1151
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 1: to provide an understanding of the knowledge and skills that

1152
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 1: are required to manage and grow small to midside firms.

1153
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:40,840
Speaker 1: We actually had an entire lecture dedicated to union busting.

1154
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 1: Various tactics management can and should take to end a

1155
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 1: labor strike. A particular example I remember, specifically is something

1156
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 1: to the effect of traininger white collar workers to perform

1157
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 1: blue collar tasks and folks. We just saw how this

1158
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 1: strategy was just used by John Deere in real time

1159
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 1: when workers were striking for better wages. The white collar

1160
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 1: workers ended up being a total disaster. A few of

1161
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 1: them were even sent to the hospital. So right there,

1162
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:12,440
Speaker 1: even in an academic setting, a wedge is already being

1163
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 1: driven between management and labor, creating this kind of us

1164
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 1: versus them mentality at a very early stage in the

1165
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 1: careers of people who aspire to be business managers and executives.

1166
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 1: And this has real world life and death implications for

1167
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 1: management and workers, but also for consumers. I'll give you

1168
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 1: an example, referencing an article from The Atlantic entitle that

1169
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 1: the long forgotten flight that sent Boeing off course, a

1170
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 1: company once driven by engineers became driven by finance. Essentially

1171
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 1: two decades ago, Boeing made a deliberate attempt to isolate

1172
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:51,440
Speaker 1: the company's engineers from its executive team by moving the

1173
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:55,960
Speaker 1: company's headquarters to Chicago, which is over seventeen hundred miles

1174
01:05:56,000 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 1: away from its primary manufacturing facility in Washington. And just

1175
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:02,240
Speaker 1: like what we're trying to do in business school, which

1176
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 1: is to pour over Excel spreadsheets and make fancy power points.

1177
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 1: Over the years, Boeing executives started making engineering decisions by

1178
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:15,919
Speaker 1: way of financial spreadsheets in a vacuum completely separate from

1179
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 1: the company's manufacturing operations. In the case of their seven

1180
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 1: to eighty seven plane, Boeing didn't outsource just the manufacturing

1181
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 1: of the parts. It turned over the design, the engineering,

1182
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 1: and the manufacturer of entire sections of the plane to

1183
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:33,480
Speaker 1: some fifty strategic partners. Boeing itself ended up building less

1184
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 1: than forty percent of the plane. The strategy was trumpeted

1185
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: as a reinvention of manufacturing, but while the finance guys

1186
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 1: loved it since it meant that Boeing had to put

1187
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 1: up less money, it was a huge headache for engineers.

1188
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 1: As a result, to this day, the plane has continued

1189
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:53,200
Speaker 1: to suffer from numerous safety and manufacturing quality issues, all

1190
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 1: in an effort to make an extra buck with kind

1191
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 1: of very little consideration for anything else. The most famous example,

1192
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 1: and one with the most dire of consequences, is probably

1193
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:05,480
Speaker 1: the seven thirty seven Max plane, with hundreds of deaths

1194
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 1: resulting from a safety system being vetoed. According to a

1195
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 1: Boeing engineer. This is New York Times reporting quote a

1196
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 1: senior Boeing engineer, filed an internal ethics complaint this year,

1197
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 1: saying that during the development of the seven thirty seven

1198
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:20,200
Speaker 1: max Jet, the company had rejected a safety system to

1199
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 1: minimize costs equipment he felt could have reduced risks that

1200
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 1: contributed to two fatal crashes. So, right, there are real

1201
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 1: world societal life and death implications resulting from the type

1202
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 1: of business trading and the you know, in my opinion,

1203
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:40,320
Speaker 1: unhealthy shareholder maximizing ethos that is so pervasive in the

1204
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:45,960
Speaker 1: curriculum of top tier MBA programs and thus also permeating

1205
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:51,280
Speaker 1: offices and boardrooms of America's top companies. And unfortunately, you know,

1206
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:54,760
Speaker 1: there is little to no penalty for this type of behavior. Right,

1207
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:58,080
Speaker 1: Let's remember that the US government routinely gives companies like

1208
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 1: Boeing billion dollar government contract as part of our defense budget,

1209
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 1: no matter how unsafe or unethical their practices might be.

1210
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 1: Duff MacDonell, who wrote the book The Golden Passport Harvard

1211
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:12,440
Speaker 1: Business School, The Limits of Capitalism and the Moral Failure

1212
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:15,240
Speaker 1: of the NBA Elite, asserts that quote the school is

1213
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 1: a force for good in a sense that HBS grads

1214
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:21,640
Speaker 1: are good at what they do, but they really do good.

1215
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:25,000
Speaker 1: Rather than producing business and physicians who vow to do

1216
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 1: no harm. Harvard Business School has become the west point

1217
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:32,600
Speaker 1: of capitalism, producing business mercenaries driven by self interest, beholden

1218
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:37,040
Speaker 1: to no one, believing in nothing. That's pretty scathing. And

1219
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 1: to be fair, NBA programs have responded to this type

1220
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:43,799
Speaker 1: of widespread criticism by adding a sort of business ethics

1221
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:47,440
Speaker 1: course to the curriculum. I myself took one at NYU,

1222
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 1: actually with Professor Jonathan Hite. Some of you probably have

1223
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:52,720
Speaker 1: heard of him. He's a fairly well known social psychologist

1224
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:56,760
Speaker 1: whose worst includes the coddling of the American mind and

1225
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:59,640
Speaker 1: also the righteous mind, why good people are divided by

1226
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 1: politics and religion. And his course, you know, quite honestly,

1227
01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 1: was super cool, very interesting discussions, but it was also

1228
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 1: extremely brief, lasting, you know, just a few sessions of

1229
01:09:11,080 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 1: the course of two weekends, which does kind of show

1230
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:18,679
Speaker 1: the priorities of the curriculum, right it. Like I said,

1231
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:21,720
Speaker 1: I found the discussion to be really interesting, but unfortunately

1232
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 1: the course designed itself felt more like I mean compliance,

1233
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 1: maybe even call it theater more than anything else. But

1234
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:30,760
Speaker 1: just to give the other side, you know, if you're

1235
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:33,479
Speaker 1: watching this and you recently got your MBA, you might

1236
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 1: totally disagree with everything I'm saying. You know, like now,

1237
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:42,160
Speaker 1: my education was holistic. We learned about ideas like stakeholder capitalism,

1238
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:45,240
Speaker 1: which is something that's currently being promulgated by the Business Roundtable,

1239
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 1: And to that, I say, yes, we definitely did talk

1240
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:53,120
Speaker 1: about those types of things. Specifically at NYU, there was

1241
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:55,320
Speaker 1: this phrase I was thrown around a lot that we

1242
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:59,519
Speaker 1: were in the business of doing good, So I think

1243
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:03,280
Speaker 1: the might be there, but unfortunately the incentive structure can't

1244
01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:07,320
Speaker 1: possibly support this in practice. And YU, for example, talks

1245
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:10,520
Speaker 1: a big game when marketing it's MBA programs with inspirational

1246
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:16,200
Speaker 1: slogans like change innovation, an MBA without boundaries, But if

1247
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:18,839
Speaker 1: you take a look at the program's most recent employment report,

1248
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:22,240
Speaker 1: more than two thirds of the graduating class are recruited

1249
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 1: into traditional industries like consulting and financial services. You know, definitely,

1250
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:29,760
Speaker 1: you know, this is once again my opinion, but not

1251
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 1: at the top of my list of professions in the

1252
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:35,600
Speaker 1: business of doing good or changing the world. This is

1253
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,400
Speaker 1: just my personal experience. But I went in, I think

1254
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:41,760
Speaker 1: with an open mind, quite an idealistic goal that I

1255
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:44,720
Speaker 1: could work in maybe news media with the goal of

1256
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 1: changing public discourse for the better. But within two weeks

1257
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 1: I was told pretty much, you know, you can either

1258
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:53,679
Speaker 1: work in consulting, banking or for Amazon. That is it.

1259
01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:56,439
Speaker 1: There are, of course, exceptional people who are able to

1260
01:10:56,439 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 1: carve their own path, but I was not one of them,

1261
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:04,599
Speaker 1: maybe until now. And like anything else, the recruiting funnel

1262
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:08,719
Speaker 1: is designed to respond to incentives. For example, placement Success

1263
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:12,760
Speaker 1: contributes thirty five percent to EAT school's overall rank in

1264
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:16,160
Speaker 1: the US News and World Report ranking methodology, which is

1265
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 1: kind of seen as the gold standard for NBA rankings.

1266
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:20,960
Speaker 1: So of course the schools administrators are going to push

1267
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 1: you towards jobs that uphold the nothing is going to

1268
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 1: fundamentally change ethos that seems to pervade our modern day

1269
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:31,760
Speaker 1: business and political culture. And just to be fair to

1270
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 1: the students, if you strap them with hundreds of thousand

1271
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 1: dollars of debt, they're not going to be able to

1272
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,680
Speaker 1: take the kinds of risks that are being advertised by

1273
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 1: top tier NBA programs with this idea of change in entrepreneurship.

1274
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:49,160
Speaker 1: So I guess what I'm pointing out is that there

1275
01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:52,880
Speaker 1: is this huge disconnect between what is being marketed and

1276
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Speaker 1: what actually transpires in reality. Because you know, the incentives

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01:11:57,120 --> 01:12:00,639
Speaker 1: structures are so poorly designed that any I think other

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Speaker 1: than propping up the currently unhealthy and unsustainable status quoe

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Speaker 1: can't possibly exist even in an academic setting. Let them

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Speaker 1: loan real world business situations that will impact the lives

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Speaker 1: of millions of people. This is a little bit of

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01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:18,679
Speaker 1: a joke, but it's really not. But it's like, business

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Speaker 1: schools are training students to think of everything in terms

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Speaker 1: of return on capital. And if you can maximize returns

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Speaker 1: without screwing over people, ignoring morals, and destroying the environment,

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Speaker 1: you should. But if you can't, it's also okay to

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Speaker 1: screw over people, ignore morals, and destroy the environment for

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Speaker 1: the sake of even the slightest increase in profits. So,

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Speaker 1: in a world where CEOs and executives make millions even

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Speaker 1: as their companies file for bankruptcy, I maybe naively think

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01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:52,880
Speaker 1: that it might behoove us to think about whether the

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Speaker 1: system and the values we teach today will help create

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Speaker 1: a world we want to live in tomorrow. Today's NBA

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Speaker 1: programs work a lot like factories churning out middle to

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Speaker 1: upper management professionals and managers who are becoming increasingly more

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Speaker 1: diverse in the way they look, but unfortunately not in

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Speaker 1: the way they think. I think it's kind of ironic

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Speaker 1: that business schools often talk a lot about the importance

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Speaker 1: of relationships, things like innovation and social responsibility, but at

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Speaker 1: the same time are still very intolerant of ideas that

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Speaker 1: deviate from traditional business orthodoxy and pretty much train their

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01:13:33,120 --> 01:13:38,160
Speaker 1: students to function like Excel spreadsheets, more numbers and screens,

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Speaker 1: and less humanity and empathy. And that, my friend, is

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Speaker 1: how the NBA has contributed to corporations becoming more evil.

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Speaker 1: If you like the segment and would like to see

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01:13:48,400 --> 01:13:51,519
Speaker 1: more of me and other collaborations like this, please let

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01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:54,679
Speaker 1: Crystal and Sager know, and of course subscribe to Breaking

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01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:57,679
Speaker 1: Points if you're inclined. Also check out my channel fifty

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Speaker 1: one to forty nine with James Lee, where I release

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Speaker 1: weekly videos about business, politics and society. Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for your time today.