Speaker 1: Are some toxic workplaces created by the cult of genius?
Speaker 1: Is narcissism a cornerstone of success? On this episode of
Speaker 1: Navigating Narcissism, I'm joined by someone who had the unfortunate
Speaker 1: experience of working with Scott Ruden, one of Hollywood and
Speaker 1: Broadway's most prolific producers who is also considered one of
Speaker 1: the most abusive bosses in entertainment. Ruden's projects like Zoolander, Clueless,
Speaker 1: No Country for Old Men, The Social Network, and the
Speaker 1: Book of Mormon have earned hundreds of awards. In fact,
Speaker 1: he's one of just eighteen people who has pulled off
Speaker 1: the quadruple entertainment Crown called the Egot, winning an Emmy, Grammy,
Speaker 1: Oscar and Tony. But you can't spell egot without ego.
Speaker 1: For over four decades, Rudin's antics were somewhat celebrated. The
Speaker 1: Hollywood Reporter billed him as the most feared man in town.
Speaker 1: The New York Post said he was Hollywood's biggest a
Speaker 1: hole and in the narcissism worshiping world we live in.
Speaker 1: Neither of those articles was meant to.
Speaker 2: Be a critique.
Speaker 1: Now, after dozens of employees spoke out about the abuse
Speaker 1: they allegedly suffered. Rudin himself has acknowledged his quote history
Speaker 1: of troubling interactions with colleagues and said he's stepping back
Speaker 1: from projects. What was it really like to work for
Speaker 1: a man who reportedly threw everything from a glass bowl
Speaker 1: to a baked potato at his employees? My guest today
Speaker 1: says he had a front row seat to all of
Speaker 1: the toxic, violent, and demeaning behavior. This podcast should not
Speaker 1: be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice.
Speaker 1: Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and
Speaker 1: or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any
Speaker 1: medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters
Speaker 1: discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may
Speaker 1: be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed
Speaker 1: are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating
Speaker 1: in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of
Speaker 1: Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia or their employees.
Speaker 2: I want to start at the top.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about your career ambitions at the
Speaker 1: time that you started with this job.
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, So I went to school for film
Speaker 3: and television and media in general and straight out of college,
Speaker 3: I was working on set for a game show. I
Speaker 3: wanted to be a producer or just more kind of
Speaker 3: like large scale film and television work. I was young
Speaker 3: at the time, so I was still kind of figuring
Speaker 3: it out, but I knew I certainly didn't want to
Speaker 3: work in licensing, which is what I was doing right
Speaker 3: before I started working for Scott.
Speaker 1: So then the opportunity comes up. Were you excited to
Speaker 1: work for him? I mean the films that he did,
Speaker 1: were you know, over one hundred Oscar nominations. It must
Speaker 1: have been in a way, not knowing anything, a thrill
Speaker 1: like this was it? This was going to take you
Speaker 1: into the work you wanted to do.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I was super excited. They reached out to me,
Speaker 3: the office manager at the time, recruiting me, asking for
Speaker 3: an interview, and so to get this opportunity come directly
Speaker 3: to me, it kind of felt like it just landed
Speaker 3: in my lap a little. And then having heard of
Speaker 3: Scott Ruden and then doing more research and seeing the
Speaker 3: wide array of film and television that he had worked
Speaker 3: on and projects that I really admired and still admire
Speaker 3: and still love, felt like kind of really my first,
Speaker 3: like real foot in the door. And I do believe
Speaker 3: that certain opportunities are like once in a lifetime, and
Speaker 3: this did feel like that once in a lifetime opportunity
Speaker 3: to work for such a prolific producer who had worked
Speaker 3: on projects that I admired. Despite the fact of what
Speaker 3: I had heard and all the rumors, I was like,
Speaker 3: I have thick skin, and seemed like everyone kind of
Speaker 3: had like a certain reputation to a degree and Hollywood,
Speaker 3: and I had worked on sets, and I had worked
Speaker 3: long hours, and so I kind of felt like I
Speaker 3: was prepared for it.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this, what were the rumors
Speaker 1: you were here? What were the sorts of stories you
Speaker 1: were hearing before you took the position?
Speaker 3: Right? So my colleague at the time kind of laughed
Speaker 3: when I told him I was going to take a
Speaker 3: job for Scott Rudin, because he was like, oh, I
Speaker 3: had a friend who worked for Scott. She only lasted
Speaker 3: a couple of weeks, you know, kind of just how
Speaker 3: volatile he could be. And there was a couple articles
Speaker 3: out there from earlier on in his career, though the
Speaker 3: last really big expose you can call it was written
Speaker 3: in like I think it was probably like two thousand
Speaker 3: and nine or two thousand and seven at the time,
Speaker 3: so it had been like going on at decades since
Speaker 3: those last reports came out. So I was shrugging them
Speaker 3: aside because I knew myself, and I figured, you know,
Speaker 3: couldn't be that bad.
Speaker 2: Because you were young.
Speaker 1: Did you have a framework for like what a toxic
Speaker 1: boss was before you took the position.
Speaker 3: No, definitely not, because when I worked on said at
Speaker 3: the game show, it was long hours, but I was
Speaker 3: just a production assistant and everyone on set was really kind,
Speaker 3: even though like sometimes things would get a little intense
Speaker 3: just because we're trying to get something shot in a timeframe.
Speaker 3: So it was intense, but no one was necessarily like
Speaker 3: cruel or abusive. And then my boss when I was
Speaker 3: working in licensing, I had already known. She was a
Speaker 3: friend of a friend and couldn't have been more non toxic.
Speaker 3: I mean, she was supportive and great. I had no
Speaker 3: idea what kind of level of toxicity that would entail.
Speaker 1: I actually feel sort of angry right now as I'm
Speaker 1: even thinking about this, is how much we don't talk
Speaker 1: to young people about what toxic leadership looks like, that
Speaker 1: this is a thing, and that if it's described to you,
Speaker 1: in fact, we frame it as dues paying that kind
Speaker 1: of get through it. It's not that big a deal.
Speaker 1: I'm kind of imagining anyone in your position who's so young,
Speaker 1: who wants an opportunity, but you literally don't have a
Speaker 1: framework for what a toxic boss is. I think that's
Speaker 1: actually really an important thing to take away that, as
Speaker 1: cynical as it may be, that I don't think it's
Speaker 1: necessarily a bad thing to actually talk to young people
Speaker 1: who are entering the workforce about what this actually is
Speaker 1: and what this looks.
Speaker 3: Like, especially in film and television and Hollywood in that
Speaker 3: industry where it's almost kind of an expectation to endure
Speaker 3: certain environments and kind of pay or dues a little bit.
Speaker 3: So it's like young workers have no idea what it's like,
Speaker 3: but then when they experience it, especially in Hollywood or media,
Speaker 3: it's almost like they feel like they're expected to take
Speaker 3: it and it's a part of the process. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Do you think that people like Scott sometimes pray on
Speaker 1: young people, people who are just coming out of school
Speaker 1: at the beginning of their careers because maybe there's a
Speaker 1: belief that you don't know better.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think people who are more well established and
Speaker 3: a bit older, they aren't going to endure that to
Speaker 3: begin with. And I think nor do they have to
Speaker 3: take certain opportunities because they're already established, They already have
Speaker 3: their foot in the door, their career path is already
Speaker 3: well on its way. But yeah, I would say that
Speaker 3: he's veering towards this younger workforce because he knows that
Speaker 3: they're going to be more apt to endure it. Because
Speaker 3: when you were in his office and you looked around
Speaker 3: at kind of the median age, I was only a
Speaker 3: couple of years out of college and I was still
Speaker 3: the oldest person, like aside from the office manager at
Speaker 3: the time, you know, I was still the oldest assistant
Speaker 3: or intern.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a sort of inherent disposability that these
Speaker 1: young people carried in that office, and that kind of
Speaker 1: dehumanization really bothers me, especially when it's a young person.
Speaker 1: So tell me about meeting Scott for the first time.
Speaker 3: So I went in for I think it was really
Speaker 3: only one round of interviews, and it was with Scott
Speaker 3: and then his two associate producers at the time, and
Speaker 3: it was pretty cordial for the most part, he was
Speaker 3: actually fairly polite and kind and rather charming. I think
Speaker 3: the only time I ever saw him like laugh or
Speaker 3: smile at me was in that interview. There was no
Speaker 3: indication that anything would be like the way it was,
Speaker 3: you know, flash forward two months or so, so kind
Speaker 3: of alleviated those like fears I had of oh my god,
Speaker 3: am I going to be able to handle this? It
Speaker 3: was kind of this reminder of like, oh, he's just
Speaker 3: a man, and he was kind and cordial enough.
Speaker 1: What was interesting, as you say that, as I'm imagining
Speaker 1: and we think about, you know, people like who have
Speaker 1: these kinds of bombastic personalities, I could stretch a little
Speaker 1: and say a narcissistic personality. We think about love bombing,
Speaker 1: and it seems like all the love bombing you got
Speaker 1: in this job was like a smile and a minute
Speaker 1: of kindness. We often think of like the dynamic that
Speaker 1: applies in a new job where somebody's trying to you
Speaker 1: over in recruitment and you're like, oh gosh, there's all
Speaker 1: these great things that are going to happen, but it's
Speaker 1: all relative.
Speaker 2: And you were told so.
Speaker 1: Many and you'd read perhaps so many things that were
Speaker 1: like ooh, it's a really toxic, difficult guy, and if
Speaker 1: he got the little bit of a laugh and a
Speaker 1: bit of kindness, that might have been all it took
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, I got this right.
Speaker 3: And to give him some credit, he did get me
Speaker 3: a Christmas gift.
Speaker 2: But you know, well there you go.
Speaker 3: I mean, so I know, right, you know, I do
Speaker 3: know what you mean right where he kind of like
Speaker 3: was predisposed to this, and he knew like there's only
Speaker 3: a certain level of his personality that he could show
Speaker 3: in that interview, because of course you go into an
Speaker 3: interview and you see kind of like the volatile nature
Speaker 3: or what he was like, there's no way you would
Speaker 3: take that job. I'm sure some people might, but I
Speaker 3: certainly wouldn't have. And so it was kind of to
Speaker 3: lure me in a bit to see that softer side
Speaker 3: of him, whatever you want to call it. But I
Speaker 3: think you're entirely right.
Speaker 1: So after that, what was the first time you saw
Speaker 1: the real Scott?
Speaker 3: So after that, I was kind of like slowly transitioning
Speaker 3: For a week or so, I had quote unquote of
Speaker 3: my two weeks at my job, but it didn't really
Speaker 3: turn out that way because I would go to the
Speaker 3: office really early in the morning Scott's office, train for
Speaker 3: a couple hours, then go to my other job, and
Speaker 3: then go back to Scott's office at the end of
Speaker 3: the day to train for the rest of the evening,
Speaker 3: whether that was like eight, nine, ten o'clock whenever. And
Speaker 3: so I think that week or two where I was
Speaker 3: kind of transitioning and training is when I first got
Speaker 3: a taste of what the hours and kind of like
Speaker 3: work life was going to look like, which was like
Speaker 3: very long hours, very go, go go. But didn't really
Speaker 3: see much of Scott during that time, and he wouldn't
Speaker 3: really pay much attention to me because I was training,
Speaker 3: and so I I saw him raise his voice a
Speaker 3: little bit, get kind of volatile, but it wasn't until
Speaker 3: I really kind of fully started and was in the
Speaker 3: office from start to finish when I started to see
Speaker 3: him be volatile and angry towards me and the other assistance.
Speaker 2: What was that like when he would be volatile, what
Speaker 2: would that look like.
Speaker 3: He would raise his voice, he would slam doors, and
Speaker 3: the types of language she would use would just be
Speaker 3: really degrading language. He would make you feel inferior, words
Speaker 3: like useless and stupid, and moro on and just anything
Speaker 3: to belittle the person he was talking down to. It
Speaker 3: could happen to anyone for any reason. It was the
Speaker 3: littlest thing that would cause him to be so volatile.
Speaker 3: You think of like the Devil Wears product.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: You know, I was in charge of coordinating his schedule,
Speaker 3: but also making sure he had a copy of his schedule,
Speaker 3: and it would be something as minute or as small
Speaker 3: as like a spelling error on the schedule that would
Speaker 3: make him so angry to the point where he would
Speaker 3: start kind of cursing and yelling and belittling.
Speaker 1: We never believe that that's the kind of thing that's
Speaker 1: going to set someone off to such a degree. Right,
Speaker 1: First of all, it's never acceptable to use that kind
Speaker 1: of language, to use that kind of tone in a workplace. Ever,
Speaker 1: you could maybe imagine that perhaps if somebody transferred ten
Speaker 1: million dollars of the company's money into and it was gone,
Speaker 1: maybe some anger, maybe some loud volume, this is a
Speaker 1: typo on a calendar. Were there other examples of those
Speaker 1: kinds of instances, That kind of stuff being what would
Speaker 1: create the volatility in the workplace really.
Speaker 3: Could come down to anything, whether it was the office
Speaker 3: being disorderly in a way he didn't like, or not
Speaker 3: getting tickets to a show, or not being able to
Speaker 3: get a hold of someone on the phone, certain things
Speaker 3: that we just had no control of. He wanted to
Speaker 3: talk to someone and we couldn't get them on the
Speaker 3: phone because they weren't answering, or they would were busy.
Speaker 3: It was our fault, it was the assistant's fault. It
Speaker 3: was the phone assistant's fault for not being able to
Speaker 3: get a hold of someone even after trying, or if
Speaker 3: someone just didn't want to schedule a meeting with him,
Speaker 3: or someone didn't want to give tickets up because they
Speaker 3: had done it a million times for Scott and he
Speaker 3: never showed up to the show, and so they were
Speaker 3: done giving these tickets, and so he would just become
Speaker 3: volatile at the littlest things. You never knew when it
Speaker 3: was going to happen. You could do everything right, and
Speaker 3: you could do everything in your power to kind of
Speaker 3: try and navigate that or foretell what it might be
Speaker 3: that might set them off, but at the end of
Speaker 3: the day wouldn't really matter, because he would find something
Speaker 3: to be upset about.
Speaker 1: My conversation will continue after this break. How would the
Speaker 1: staff react. So if somebody was the target of this volatility,
Speaker 1: the person who couldn't get the person on the phone,
Speaker 1: the person who couldn't get the tickets, how would the
Speaker 1: people in those positions, what would you observe happening for them?
Speaker 2: How'd they react?
Speaker 3: You would kind of just have to sit there and
Speaker 3: take it and maybe say sorry, but then maybe not
Speaker 3: say anything, because saying something might just make it worse.
Speaker 3: And sometimes he would just stare at you and wait
Speaker 3: for a response, and then as like a bystander, you'd
Speaker 3: all just like turn your gaze, which makes you feel
Speaker 3: a little bit guilty at the same time as the
Speaker 3: person who has to just say nothing in that situation
Speaker 3: and let the other person get verbally attacked. But at
Speaker 3: the same time, you knew that that was you an
Speaker 3: hour ago, and it was going to be you in
Speaker 3: a couple hours. Men, when Scott wasn't in the office,
Speaker 3: we would all joke and laugh about it, and that
Speaker 3: was really our big coping mechanism while we were all
Speaker 3: in office together. It was kind of just to make
Speaker 3: light of it because what else he was supposed to do.
Speaker 3: But while it was happening, yeah, there wasn't much you
Speaker 3: could do or say that would fix it or make
Speaker 3: him feel better.
Speaker 1: I'm curious what was harder being on the receiving end
Speaker 1: of it or watching someone be on the receiving end
Speaker 1: of it of his volatility, of his rage.
Speaker 3: For me, watching other people be subjected to it, because
Speaker 3: you almost become numb to it at a certain point
Speaker 3: of him doing that to you, it could just put
Speaker 3: up that wall and compartmentalize it. But because there was
Speaker 3: so many different assistance coming in and out of rotation,
Speaker 3: there was just like new people that became kind of
Speaker 3: the victims of his aggressiveness. It was just really hard
Speaker 3: watching other people, people that became your friends and not
Speaker 3: of this family, endure this and deal with this.
Speaker 1: Yes, you've said a couple of things here that actually
Speaker 1: just shed light on these kinds of toxic workplace situations.
Speaker 1: Number one, the fact that there was some support amongst
Speaker 1: all of you, that you were all witnessing it, you
Speaker 1: were all going through it together and being able to
Speaker 1: turn to each other. As hellish as it was, there
Speaker 1: was actually a really important value to that. It would
Speaker 1: be a lot worse to be stranded on the desert
Speaker 1: island alone.
Speaker 2: Kind of thing.
Speaker 1: That's actually supported by the research literature on this, like
Speaker 1: having colleagues and those circumstances can actually help people. There's
Speaker 1: a couple of other things you brought up too, is
Speaker 1: this idea of watching someone else go through it can
Speaker 1: actually be equally traumatic. And there was also that anticipation piece,
Speaker 1: it's a matter of time before this target comes looking
Speaker 1: for me, and it's a reminder of how bad it
Speaker 1: actually can be. And then there's the third thing you
Speaker 1: brought up, which is you were all actually put in
Speaker 1: one of the worst positions that beings could be put into,
Speaker 1: which is to be asked to do something, to have
Speaker 1: this tremendous, horrible consequence that you would have to face
Speaker 1: if you couldn't do it, but to be very out
Speaker 1: of control around getting it done. So if he basically
Speaker 1: said to you, I want you to alphabetize a thousand
Speaker 1: pieces of paper, that's just something you had to do.
Speaker 1: You could put your head down and get it done.
Speaker 1: But getting someone else on the phone, getting tickets that
Speaker 1: can't be done, things that were fully out of your control,
Speaker 1: there is a unique cruelty to that. Because you had
Speaker 1: no control, you couldn't get those things done.
Speaker 3: You eventually kind of just become numb to it and
Speaker 3: kind of resigned to it because it doesn't matter how
Speaker 3: well you do or how well you think you're doing.
Speaker 3: It's just a matter of time before you see him
Speaker 3: lash out or have him wash out at you.
Speaker 2: I want to go back to this one specific thing
Speaker 2: you brought up.
Speaker 1: I know it's a detail, but it's a detail that
Speaker 1: I think we could learn a lot from, which is
Speaker 1: something as simple as the typo on the schedule. Right,
Speaker 1: we're saying he reacted with rage. What did it really
Speaker 1: look like when you did that? You make the type
Speaker 1: of I don't know, a word is spelled wrong, there's
Speaker 1: a period missing at the end of sense. Whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: grand error you made. He comes in, he sees it,
Speaker 1: he rages. What did that really look like?
Speaker 3: Have like a specific memory in mind? Actually? And am
Speaker 3: I allowed to swear on this swear away? Okay? Great?
Speaker 3: He had his schedule in a very specific way. So
Speaker 3: he had like a branded piece of stock paper that
Speaker 3: was long and thin, and it had like his logo
Speaker 3: at the bottom, and you'd have to print out his
Speaker 3: schedule with the hour, who the meeting was with where
Speaker 3: it was like in order and then print it out
Speaker 3: and you would bring it to him, and if his
Speaker 3: schedule updated or there was a change, kind of have
Speaker 3: to like constantly be bringing him a new, fresh schedule
Speaker 3: so he could like keep track of where he was
Speaker 3: going and what he was doing. And I remember this
Speaker 3: one instance where it brought him the updated schedule. He
Speaker 3: was in his confidence room office and you have to
Speaker 3: stand there while he looks it over and then just
Speaker 3: shrugs you off or waves you off or tell you
Speaker 3: like ask you like what the hell is this? Or
Speaker 3: you know what's going on? But I remember him like
Speaker 3: at one time crumpling it up, tossing it at me
Speaker 3: and being like, what the fuck is this? And I
Speaker 3: was like I don't know, and you'd be like get
Speaker 3: the fuck out, go go, and you'd have to go
Speaker 3: try and like figure out what was wrong. We're on
Speaker 3: so little sleep, we're stressed, you're so exhausted, and like
Speaker 3: those little details are so hard to manage, and so
Speaker 3: I just remember like going through the schedule, nitpicking every detail,
Speaker 3: like literally going like letter by letter till I found
Speaker 3: that I had spelled someone's name wrong. But I remember
Speaker 3: fixing it and then bringing back in fifteen minutes later
Speaker 3: then it was good, Then it was fine. What always
Speaker 3: stuck with me is he didn't want any of us
Speaker 3: to learn, or to grow or to become better, Because
Speaker 3: if that was the case, he'd be like, oh, like
Speaker 3: thanks for bringing this, like just as a heads up,
Speaker 3: like you know, that's not how you spelled this person's name,
Speaker 3: you know, and you'd go, that's great to know, got it,
Speaker 3: like clocked for next time. But you know, with him,
Speaker 3: it wasn't.
Speaker 1: About that, which is dehumanizing, right. It's feeling like a
Speaker 1: cog in a wheel.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 1: This word of use is disposability. There was no interest
Speaker 1: in your growth. In order to be interested in a
Speaker 1: person's growth, you actually have to recognize them as separate
Speaker 1: human beings that could grow rather than I mean, it'sn't
Speaker 1: be anything's pen in my hand. I'm not interested in
Speaker 1: the pen's growth. The pen has a function for me,
Speaker 1: and when it runs out of ink, I'm going to
Speaker 1: throw it out.
Speaker 2: I really struggle.
Speaker 1: With that dehumanization, especially when a young person's going through that.
Speaker 1: On top of this, though, you had said something, we're
Speaker 1: sleep deprived, right, how are we going to pick up
Speaker 1: a spelling error? And that sounds like it was related
Speaker 1: to these really long hours. Talk to us about the
Speaker 1: structure of that. What did these long hours look like.
Speaker 3: Well, his office was structured in a way where he
Speaker 3: had his executive assistant, which was in charge of scheduling
Speaker 3: and his kind of day to day operations and then
Speaker 3: kind of make making sure that the office operations were
Speaker 3: running smoothly. He had his phone's assistant, who, when he
Speaker 3: was in office or out of office, managed, you know,
Speaker 3: getting him in contact with everyone he needed to that day,
Speaker 3: or if he needed a phone call set up, or
Speaker 3: you know, he had a list of people he needed
Speaker 3: to try and talk to that day. They were in
Speaker 3: charge of operating the phones, connecting him, transferring him, conference calling,
Speaker 3: so on and so forth. He had the docs assistant,
Speaker 3: who was in charge of managing his scripts and making
Speaker 3: sure that they were kind of accounted for, like an
Speaker 3: archive of what he's read and what he hasn't read
Speaker 3: and what he needs to read and make sure that
Speaker 3: things are delivered. And then he had the theater assistant,
Speaker 3: whose kind of main job was ensuring that he had
Speaker 3: a certain amount of tickets every night or even day
Speaker 3: to see shows, and even if he didn't go to
Speaker 3: those shows, like he just liked to have tickets to
Speaker 3: shows he might go to. And then he had the
Speaker 3: interns that were making runs and things like that, and
Speaker 3: so as his executive assistant, you have the scheduling aspect,
Speaker 3: but then kind of overseeing to some degree kind of
Speaker 3: the phone's assistant, docs and theaters, making sure like things
Speaker 3: are in order, and then also trying to train people
Speaker 3: that came in and out of those roles, which was
Speaker 3: pretty frequent, and so some people you know, wouldn't be
Speaker 3: in that position for more than two weeks. And so
Speaker 3: I would be in really early just because he was
Speaker 3: in really early. I would go in around like five thirty,
Speaker 3: maybe like six to begin with, and then I would
Speaker 3: stay through until you know, he left for the day,
Speaker 3: and that could be eight o'clock, that could be ten o'clock.
Speaker 3: I had that mindset of like, work hard, do well
Speaker 3: at this job, good things will come. So you know,
Speaker 3: I would start to go in earlier to make sure
Speaker 3: that everything was set up for the day. But he
Speaker 3: eventually started going in earlier too, And I don't know
Speaker 3: if that's because he like saw me going in earlier
Speaker 3: and you had to prove that he could be in
Speaker 3: there earlier. Whatever, the logic. Maybe it got to the
Speaker 3: point where I was going in like as early as
Speaker 3: I possibly could. That whole day was upwards of like
Speaker 3: twelve to fifteen hours. And then I lived in Brooklyn
Speaker 3: at the time, and the office was in Times Square,
Speaker 3: So by the time I got home, got showered, got
Speaker 3: into bed, I mean, I was running on like four
Speaker 3: hours of sleep at night. Sometimes that was kind of
Speaker 3: day to day, and then even on weekends he would
Speaker 3: have to have kind of a person on call. You
Speaker 3: still had to make sure that his car was where
Speaker 3: it needed to be when he needed it there, and
Speaker 3: made sure his schedule was up to day. So you know,
Speaker 3: I was really working like extreme hours every day, seven
Speaker 3: days a week.
Speaker 2: These are extraordinary hours.
Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like there's a point at which
Speaker 1: you started playing the time game. You were coming at
Speaker 1: five thirty five, fifteen five. That does sound like a
Speaker 1: game for him. It's a very cat and mouse. When
Speaker 1: we hear a story like this, one of the things
Speaker 1: people will say is like, no, no, no, they're just
Speaker 1: so focused on their craft and their geniuses.
Speaker 2: I beg to differ.
Speaker 1: If you're trying to beat your assistant into work, you're
Speaker 1: very aware of your assistant, and so that doesn't feel
Speaker 1: like the genius who's so absorbed in his work. That
Speaker 1: feels like someone who is messing with you. That feels intentional.
Speaker 1: So I have a couple of thoughts here. Number one,
Speaker 1: that kind of a schedule and you are talking about
Speaker 1: fifteen sixteen hour days and three four hours of sleep. Nobody,
Speaker 1: even a young person, can make it on that little sleep.
Speaker 1: So a spelling error, that's actually amazing that if those
Speaker 1: are the only kinds of errors being made. Not to
Speaker 1: mention the toll on your health that it was literally taking.
Speaker 1: But I'm talking about executive assistant, phone's assistant, doc's assistant,
Speaker 1: theater assistant, plus interns making runs. I imagine this dude
Speaker 1: had a house or an apartment or something like that,
Speaker 1: so there's probably a whole team of people who ran
Speaker 1: the home, and people listening to this would say, if
Speaker 1: I had this many people running my life, like, what
Speaker 1: was this guy angry about every single thing? It's almost
Speaker 1: like his feet didn't touch the floor. And this is
Speaker 1: why I think it is important to use personality as
Speaker 1: a framework here, because any normal human being who is
Speaker 1: literally being insulated from everything in the world all the
Speaker 1: kinds of indignities we have to endure, from not getting
Speaker 1: a parking a lot at the grocery store, to you know,
Speaker 1: having to press one press four plus six just to
Speaker 1: get a doctor's appointment. All of that was taken care
Speaker 1: of for him. This speaks to personality. The stuff that
Speaker 1: actually ends up taking years off our life isn't the
Speaker 1: big stressors. It's this day to day stuff. And he
Speaker 1: didn't have any of that. So sure the listeners are thinking, dude,
Speaker 1: what are you so mad about?
Speaker 3: No, it's baffling. I mean seriously, they just, like you said,
Speaker 3: like those day to day stressors that I feel like
Speaker 3: I have to deal with on a day to day
Speaker 3: basis compared to you know what he really, like, what
Speaker 3: is so stressful about? And I know it's stressful like
Speaker 3: that job and producing, but it's almost like self inflicted
Speaker 3: because you have all this lavishness and wealth and power,
Speaker 3: but all he does with it is abuse it and
Speaker 3: is angry all the time. Yeah, Like I don't know.
Speaker 3: I like, if I had the wealth he did, no
Speaker 3: one would ever hear from me. I would be just
Speaker 3: like retired for life, like living just like the happiest life.
Speaker 1: Now, I mean or for that kind of money, you
Speaker 1: should be able to for the best shrink in the
Speaker 1: world too, and clearly that wasn't happening either. So here's
Speaker 1: the other thing is that you brought up this issue
Speaker 1: of turnover. I actually would love to get a sense
Speaker 1: of how long did people last in these positions.
Speaker 3: I was only there for about four months, and that
Speaker 3: was considered really long. I mean, wow, some people would
Speaker 3: be there for two weeks, and people would be there
Speaker 3: for a month. I think the executive assistant before me
Speaker 3: was there for like a month. I think the person
Speaker 3: that was there after me was there for like a week,
Speaker 3: and so it really was like a revolving door. I
Speaker 3: saw a good amount of phones assistance kind of cycle through,
Speaker 3: and that was kind of like the hot seat really
Speaker 3: because it was like the most room for error trying
Speaker 3: to connect, and like the phone systems were like so archaic,
Speaker 3: Like honestly, you also think with all that money, you
Speaker 3: would like just like update your systems or something. I mean,
Speaker 3: he was like still using a BlackBerry, which is insane.
Speaker 3: There was usually a period during the day where he
Speaker 3: was like, okay, time for my calls, and it would
Speaker 3: go through like a list of people that needed to
Speaker 3: be called. It was just really hectic. He would just
Speaker 3: like buzz in from the other room and be like
Speaker 3: I need this person, transfer this person or connect to
Speaker 3: this person. And it was just like so chaotic, and
Speaker 3: so there was a lot of room for error with
Speaker 3: the phone's assistant. Can only imagine what would happen if
Speaker 3: like a call was dropped or you know, someone can't
Speaker 3: be transferred in, or there's just kind of like a
Speaker 3: mess with the phones. And so I definitely saw like
Speaker 3: a good amount of people get cycled through there doc's assistant.
Speaker 3: I saw a couple of people get cycled through theater.
Speaker 3: I saw like at least ones get transferred through.
Speaker 1: Did anyone take notice of this rapid turnover because a
Speaker 1: place where people are leaving jobs after one, two, three weeks,
Speaker 1: were there no other eyes on this place where people
Speaker 1: are saying, Wow, people don't last a long time here.
Speaker 3: I think it's just one of those things that was
Speaker 3: kind of well known, but it was kind of just
Speaker 3: shrugged aside, like just because of the nature of the
Speaker 3: industry and the nature of Scott Rudin himself. I mean,
Speaker 3: you should have seen the like the stack of what
Speaker 3: is it like like w four is whatever you set
Speaker 3: up for tax season. Like the just stack of them
Speaker 3: was so huge, and I was like, goodness, my gosh,
Speaker 3: you only have like seven people working in here, like
Speaker 3: over the course of a year, like that stack should
Speaker 3: be like one fiftieth of the size that it was.
Speaker 1: But that's a good that's actually a really interesting measurement
Speaker 1: of it. But I do think this idea of like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is what people do. They get in the industry
Speaker 1: and it's just rough and they can't hack it. I Mean,
Speaker 1: my concern is always that that's the pathologizing of the
Speaker 1: person who leaves the job, rather than the person who's
Speaker 1: treating him that way. So it sounds that over the
Speaker 1: course of a year there might have been in all
Speaker 1: these positions said and told me one hundred people might
Speaker 1: have gone through this these potentially Yeah.
Speaker 3: I don't have like an exact number, but it was high. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, we will be right back with this conversation. Okay,
Speaker 1: So you brought up this phone's assistant thing because he
Speaker 1: was talking to all these important people. When he'd be
Speaker 1: on the phone, he's screaming at all of you obscenities,
Speaker 1: You're all these terrible things.
Speaker 2: How would he treat the people he was on the
Speaker 2: phone with.
Speaker 3: I think if it was like a notable name, like
Speaker 3: a reputable actor or rector, or you know, someone with notoriety,
Speaker 3: like they were treated a lot better. I think if
Speaker 3: it was someone that like kind of worked for him
Speaker 3: to a degree, like, that's when you would kind of
Speaker 3: get in that murky water of potentially being you know,
Speaker 3: treated poorly or kind of aggressively.
Speaker 1: This, though, takes me back to the point I was
Speaker 1: making before about how intentional it was, Just like with
Speaker 1: you coming in the morning, right, if he was screaming
Speaker 1: at the people on the phone the same way he
Speaker 1: was screaming at all of you, still unacceptable, but we
Speaker 1: might have been able to write this off to there's
Speaker 1: something off about this very disregulated person who just goes
Speaker 1: through the world screaming everyone doesn't matter who. And again,
Speaker 1: it doesn't make it right. It still makes it abusive.
Speaker 1: But what I feel, even out of the workplace, even
Speaker 1: in a close relationship, knowing that they're choosing to do
Speaker 1: that because that's a choice, Because he's choosing to be
Speaker 1: nice to the person on the phone, which means he's
Speaker 1: choosing to abuse you.
Speaker 3: That's a choice, right, Yeah, No, it's what it felt like. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean he is a volatile man. I think it's
Speaker 3: kind of a good mix of both of their potentially
Speaker 3: really being something askew and kind of just that like
Speaker 3: need and abuse of power. And I think he was
Speaker 3: so corrupted by the wealth and the power that he
Speaker 3: had amassed, because you know, I don't know what he
Speaker 3: was like when he was twenty, and so I don't
Speaker 3: know if this is a character issue that stems from whatever,
Speaker 3: or if this is something that grew and festered as
Speaker 3: his power and his wealth grew.
Speaker 1: I know what my hypothesis is knowing how personality works,
Speaker 1: and I think that it does become this interaction between
Speaker 1: whatever the baseline personality is and then getting power. Because
Speaker 1: I can tell you this right now, if you got power,
Speaker 1: if I got power, we would never treat people that
Speaker 1: way ever, right And I can say that with confidence.
Speaker 1: We may not want the power, we may walk away
Speaker 1: from the power, and we may not feel this desperate
Speaker 1: need to keep the power. But I'm convinced that your personality,
Speaker 1: being yours, mind being mine, other kind people we know
Speaker 1: being that wouldn't go there.
Speaker 2: Just wouldn't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think power corrupts corruptible people.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, very well said. That's really really well said.
Speaker 1: So as you go through this, your four months are unfolding,
Speaker 1: which must have felt like the longest four months of
Speaker 1: your life. And if you really sort of played it
Speaker 1: out in dog years, given how little sleep you got,
Speaker 1: that four months was actually more like probably two years
Speaker 1: in the job.
Speaker 2: What was the breaking point for you?
Speaker 3: That's a great question. Just got to a point where
Speaker 3: I kind of just stopped caring. I stopped caring about
Speaker 3: the way he treated me. I stopped caring to try
Speaker 3: to hard at my job, and so things got like sloppier,
Speaker 3: which led to him having more outlets or reasons to
Speaker 3: kind of lash out at me. Got to the point
Speaker 3: where he was kind of fed up with me. Me
Speaker 3: his verbal assaults just really had no effect on me
Speaker 3: at that point because I was like just so beaten down,
Speaker 3: and I would, you know, fuck something up and he
Speaker 3: would be like, get the fuck out of the office,
Speaker 3: go work somewhere else, and so you know, I would
Speaker 3: be like all right, like happily, would take my laptop
Speaker 3: and go sit at a Starbucks or wherever the hell
Speaker 3: until another assistant would call me and be like, we
Speaker 3: need you back in here because something's happening, and I
Speaker 3: would go back in you wouldn't even notice it. So
Speaker 3: it got to the point where I think we were
Speaker 3: both collectively just like done with each other. Where it
Speaker 3: felt like, you know, said firing wasn't kind of like
Speaker 3: a fake firing, it was like a okay.
Speaker 2: And that was it.
Speaker 1: One day you just decided I'm not coming back anymore
Speaker 1: and you didn't go back.
Speaker 3: Yeah, out of you know, kind of just respect for
Speaker 3: the other assistants. I at least gave two weeks there
Speaker 3: so like they could try and like hire someone and
Speaker 3: train someone. And I remember like I had like given
Speaker 3: my two weeks, and like I think I'll always remember this.
Speaker 3: They finally got someone hired, like towards the end my
Speaker 3: two weeks, but they weren't going to start yet. I
Speaker 3: remember being like all right, like I'm out, like goodbye,
Speaker 3: and Scott was like, what do you mean, like new
Speaker 3: persons have started, and I was like nobody. I gave
Speaker 3: my two weeks, you know, like I was done, And
Speaker 3: I just remember some saying like okay, like thanks for everything,
Speaker 3: like weirdly cordial in a way, like he wasn't like
Speaker 3: angry or anything. And I found that really bizarre. And
Speaker 3: so the last time I spoke to him was him
Speaker 3: just being like, Okay, thanks for everything, and I was like,
Speaker 3: didn't seem like there was you thought there was much
Speaker 3: to thank me for. But I'll take it right.
Speaker 1: I mean, you served your purpose. And I imagine giving
Speaker 1: two weeks might have been unusual in that job. People
Speaker 1: were so wrecked that they were saying I'm out. So
Speaker 1: that you were willing to do that and endure that,
Speaker 1: but I guess if you knew it was fineite. That said,
Speaker 1: though a lot of people would have said, I'm out.
Speaker 1: I can't endure this. How has this experience affected you
Speaker 1: as you've moved on to other jobs, other relationships, just
Speaker 1: in your life, how has it affected you?
Speaker 3: It has totally changed my outlook on life for the better.
Speaker 3: I no longer live in New York. I kind of
Speaker 3: just up and move to Colorado because I was jobless
Speaker 3: and kind of adrift, so moved out here. It was
Speaker 3: one of the best things I ever did. I mean,
Speaker 3: it was hard, but like compared to what I had
Speaker 3: just been through. I was kind of just waiting tables
Speaker 3: at the time, building this new life and this new
Speaker 3: foundation for myself full life. My passion and my dream
Speaker 3: was to work in the film industry, and that experience
Speaker 3: definitely kind of tainted that for me. And I loved movies.
Speaker 3: I loved the idea of movies. I loved going to
Speaker 3: the theater. It was my happy place and it still
Speaker 3: is my happy place. And you know, seeing his name
Speaker 3: pop up on screen definitely caused a visceral reaction and
Speaker 3: going back to like having this kind of new outlook
Speaker 3: on life, not only the experience I went through to
Speaker 3: try and achieve this stream, but then also watching Scott
Speaker 3: behave in the way that he did. He had all
Speaker 3: this power, and he had all this money, and he
Speaker 3: had everything in the world really that so many people
Speaker 3: would dream and aspire to, but he was still so
Speaker 3: angry and so miserable, and I was like, that is
Speaker 3: not the life I'm trying to lead. Like it doesn't
Speaker 3: matter what quote unquote dreams I achieve. It's just a
Speaker 3: matter of kind of the life I want to make
Speaker 3: for myself. And I can choose to be happy, and
Speaker 3: I can choose to be content, and I can choose
Speaker 3: where to put my energy. I put my energy into
Speaker 3: my friends and my partner and my family and my
Speaker 3: pet and into nature and to exercising and all these
Speaker 3: things that give me so much fulfillment in life, because
Speaker 3: for so long it was is my career was going
Speaker 3: to be my fulfillment and my dream and my aspiration,
Speaker 3: and that was going to bring me joy and bring
Speaker 3: me happiness. But that experience crushed me. And I don't
Speaker 3: think it was necessarily the chasing of the dream as
Speaker 3: much as it was Scott, but then also just looking
Speaker 3: at what he had achieved, which is what I was
Speaker 3: aspiring to, but to see how he acted towards people
Speaker 3: and towards himself, and it wasn't how I wanted to live,
Speaker 3: It wasn't how I wanted to treat other people. And
Speaker 3: so I just prioritize the things that bring me joy
Speaker 3: in life, and that is kind of my dream, really,
Speaker 3: is to keep nurturing those things in my life.
Speaker 1: I mean, you just said a mouthful about healing. You
Speaker 1: really really did, because I think that if that was
Speaker 1: the reboot you took from this, and I'd imagine that
Speaker 1: people who worked in these assistant positions over the years
Speaker 1: had a whole variety of different fallout could quite easily
Speaker 1: see how some people could have left that job and
Speaker 1: had post traumatic symptoms, you know, anxiety and vigilance and
Speaker 1: nightmares and feeling unsettled and feeling scared a lot, deeply,
Speaker 1: deeply anxious, that kind of thing. I think that that
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been uncommon either. But to have viewed that
Speaker 1: as what I just saw, I want my life to
Speaker 1: be the opposite. That's a big deal for someone, especially
Speaker 1: a young person, to be able to take away from that.
Speaker 1: What do you have to say to people who think
Speaker 1: that enduring this kind of antagonistic, combative, and downright cruel
Speaker 1: behavior it's part of paying your dues in the industry,
Speaker 1: It's not.
Speaker 3: And you don't have to endure that. We've been conditioned
Speaker 3: and kind of told that we must like it's a
Speaker 3: part of the process. It's almost even been glamorized in
Speaker 3: Hollywood itself. But we are worth more than that, and
Speaker 3: we don't deserve to be treated like that, and we
Speaker 3: don't have to endure that. It's not a part of
Speaker 3: the process. The only way we're going to change it,
Speaker 3: or at least a big part of the way we
Speaker 3: can change it, is to reject it and to demand
Speaker 3: better and to demand more than just abuse and belittlement.
Speaker 1: I do know that there is a movement afoot amongst
Speaker 1: assistants in the industry who are actually trying to organize,
Speaker 1: and I think that that's actually brilliant. Once Scott was outed,
Speaker 1: he issued this public apology. He said, much has been
Speaker 1: written about my history of troubling interactions with colleagues, and
Speaker 1: I am profoundly sorry for the pain my behavior cause
Speaker 1: to individuals directly and indirectly.
Speaker 2: What did you feel reading that?
Speaker 3: I felt his publicist or lawyer did a great job.
Speaker 1: Writing as amen, Amen, And I think that as long
Speaker 1: as there's people with these personalities out there, there will
Speaker 1: always be publicists and lawyers who will get a job.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time, very very grateful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Pleasure.
Speaker 1: Here are my takeaways from this conversation. The cult of
Speaker 1: unaccountable genius is doing lots of harm to people who
Speaker 1: come into certain industries, especially politics, tech, media, and other
Speaker 1: creative spaces, and particularly.
Speaker 2: To young people.
Speaker 1: It seems that since time immemorial, we have given a
Speaker 1: free pass to the geniuses in our midst to behave
Speaker 1: as badly as they want, but to frame it as
Speaker 1: a necessary and even glamorized hazing ritual and that somehow
Speaker 1: the genius is entitled to their holatile tantrums. They are not,
Speaker 1: and no matter how successful someone is, to be in
Speaker 1: the wake of dismissive, dehumanizing, and rageful behavior is not
Speaker 1: healthy for anyone. In our next takeaway, toxic workplaces treat
Speaker 1: people as disposable, and it's time we break out of
Speaker 1: the myth that if I just work hard and tolerate
Speaker 1: this for long enough, it will be a jumping off
Speaker 1: place for my dreams. You're more likely to experience the
Speaker 1: fallout of severe psychological stress than you are to be
Speaker 1: launched into your own successful path. When you work for
Speaker 1: a toxic boss, there is only room for their success,
Speaker 1: and many people have wasted years waiting for their turn.
Speaker 1: That's not going to happen, and you may actually harm
Speaker 1: your mental and physical health as you wait for this
Speaker 1: illusion to turn real. For our next takeaway, this story
Speaker 1: reminds us that toxic workplaces aren't just about the abuse
Speaker 1: we endure, but also about watching it happen to other people,
Speaker 1: and that can sometimes be even more taxing. As individuals,
Speaker 1: we may be able to compartmentalize what is happening to us,
Speaker 1: but when it is happening to someone else, it can
Speaker 1: be devastating to witness it, especially if we feel powerless
Speaker 1: to help, and can plant a terrible seat of anxiety
Speaker 1: as we wait and wonder when we will be the
Speaker 1: next target. In this next takeaway, when we feel tempted
Speaker 1: to give toxic bosses a free pass or just write
Speaker 1: it off to the pressure they are under or their
Speaker 1: fiery creative spirit, remember that in most cases, their behavior.
Speaker 2: Is a choice.
Speaker 1: In this case, Rudent's raging at assistance was not mirrored
Speaker 1: in his phone calls with movie stars and other high
Speaker 1: status folks. A tyrannical sort of superpower of anyone with
Speaker 1: a narcissistic personality is that they are able to take
Speaker 1: their mask on and off, and that is intentional. This
Speaker 1: isn't the uncontrollable spirit of a creative genius. This is
Speaker 1: a choice that reflects the toxic person's belief that some
Speaker 1: people matter and most people don't. And in our last takeaway,
Speaker 1: the story of this one assistant shows us how complicated
Speaker 1: these outcomes can be, even in a short time. Working
Speaker 1: under such abusive circumstances, he acknowledges being changed by it
Speaker 1: and In his case, the change wasn't all bad. It
Speaker 1: ended up being an unexpected wake up call on how
Speaker 1: to live life, which in essence was to live life
Speaker 1: in the opposite manner of the boss he had witnessed.
Speaker 1: But it also did mean giving up on a dream
Speaker 1: of a career in the film industry. I'm saddened to
Speaker 1: think about how many people have left industries because of
Speaker 1: these experiences. But maybe when we leave these jobs and
Speaker 1: settings to heal, we find a healthier path for ourselves.
Speaker 1: A narcissistic boss is a masterclass on how not to
Speaker 1: live and work.