WEBVTT - I Survived Hollywood Mega Producer Scott Rudin 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:05.880 Are some toxic workplaces created by the cult of genius? 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:12.520 Is narcissism a cornerstone of success? On this episode of 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:17.119 Navigating Narcissism, I'm joined by someone who had the unfortunate 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:21.919 experience of working with Scott Ruden, one of Hollywood and 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:26.880 Broadway's most prolific producers who is also considered one of 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:34.400 the most abusive bosses in entertainment. Ruden's projects like Zoolander, Clueless, 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:39.000 No Country for Old Men, The Social Network, and the 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:44.000 Book of Mormon have earned hundreds of awards. In fact, 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:48.400 he's one of just eighteen people who has pulled off 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:55.720 the quadruple entertainment Crown called the Egot, winning an Emmy, Grammy, 0:00:56.240 --> 0:01:02.520 Oscar and Tony. But you can't spell egot without ego. 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:09.480 For over four decades, Rudin's antics were somewhat celebrated. The 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:14.240 Hollywood Reporter billed him as the most feared man in town. 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:18.840 The New York Post said he was Hollywood's biggest a 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:23.040 hole and in the narcissism worshiping world we live in. 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:25.720 Neither of those articles was meant to. 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:27.560 Be a critique. 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:32.640 Now, after dozens of employees spoke out about the abuse 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:39.840 they allegedly suffered. Rudin himself has acknowledged his quote history 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:45.759 of troubling interactions with colleagues and said he's stepping back 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:50.440 from projects. What was it really like to work for 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:55.680 a man who reportedly threw everything from a glass bowl 0:01:56.000 --> 0:02:00.440 to a baked potato at his employees? My guest today 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:04.600 says he had a front row seat to all of 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:10.639 the toxic, violent, and demeaning behavior. This podcast should not 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:14.400 be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:20.360 Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:25.400 or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:31.720 medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:38.919 discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:44.320 be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:49.120 are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:52.600 in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:57.880 Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia or their employees. 0:02:58.280 --> 0:02:59.680 I want to start at the top. 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:04.200 Can you tell us about your career ambitions at the 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:06.680 time that you started with this job. 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:10.720 Yeah, of course, So I went to school for film 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.960 and television and media in general and straight out of college, 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:19.080 I was working on set for a game show. I 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:22.240 wanted to be a producer or just more kind of 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.400 like large scale film and television work. I was young 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.280 at the time, so I was still kind of figuring 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:29.239 it out, but I knew I certainly didn't want to 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.399 work in licensing, which is what I was doing right 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:34.440 before I started working for Scott. 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:39.480 So then the opportunity comes up. Were you excited to 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.440 work for him? I mean the films that he did, 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:46.400 were you know, over one hundred Oscar nominations. It must 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:50.080 have been in a way, not knowing anything, a thrill 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:51.800 like this was it? This was going to take you 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:53.680 into the work you wanted to do. 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:57.160 Oh yeah, I was super excited. They reached out to me, 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.520 the office manager at the time, recruiting me, asking for 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.160 an interview, and so to get this opportunity come directly 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.040 to me, it kind of felt like it just landed 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.200 in my lap a little. And then having heard of 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:12.240 Scott Ruden and then doing more research and seeing the 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.480 wide array of film and television that he had worked 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.880 on and projects that I really admired and still admire 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:21.480 and still love, felt like kind of really my first, 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.280 like real foot in the door. And I do believe 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:28.040 that certain opportunities are like once in a lifetime, and 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:31.400 this did feel like that once in a lifetime opportunity 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:35.640 to work for such a prolific producer who had worked 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.640 on projects that I admired. Despite the fact of what 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.880 I had heard and all the rumors, I was like, 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.360 I have thick skin, and seemed like everyone kind of 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.680 had like a certain reputation to a degree and Hollywood, 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:51.559 and I had worked on sets, and I had worked 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.280 long hours, and so I kind of felt like I 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:55.640 was prepared for it. 0:04:57.279 --> 0:04:59.600 So let me ask you this, what were the rumors 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:01.760 you were here? What were the sorts of stories you 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:04.239 were hearing before you took the position? 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.120 Right? So my colleague at the time kind of laughed 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:09.960 when I told him I was going to take a 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.560 job for Scott Rudin, because he was like, oh, I 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.600 had a friend who worked for Scott. She only lasted 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:18.279 a couple of weeks, you know, kind of just how 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.599 volatile he could be. And there was a couple articles 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:25.320 out there from earlier on in his career, though the 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:29.920 last really big expose you can call it was written 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.400 in like I think it was probably like two thousand 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:34.520 and nine or two thousand and seven at the time, 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:38.200 so it had been like going on at decades since 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.960 those last reports came out. So I was shrugging them 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.479 aside because I knew myself, and I figured, you know, 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:45.960 couldn't be that bad. 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:47.480 Because you were young. 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:51.120 Did you have a framework for like what a toxic 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:53.520 boss was before you took the position. 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:58.440 No, definitely not, because when I worked on said at 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:00.560 the game show, it was long hours, but I was 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.080 just a production assistant and everyone on set was really kind, 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:06.640 even though like sometimes things would get a little intense 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.560 just because we're trying to get something shot in a timeframe. 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.480 So it was intense, but no one was necessarily like 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:18.440 cruel or abusive. And then my boss when I was 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.320 working in licensing, I had already known. She was a 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:25.160 friend of a friend and couldn't have been more non toxic. 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:29.240 I mean, she was supportive and great. I had no 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:33.679 idea what kind of level of toxicity that would entail. 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.320 I actually feel sort of angry right now as I'm 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.360 even thinking about this, is how much we don't talk 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:45.080 to young people about what toxic leadership looks like, that 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.680 this is a thing, and that if it's described to you, 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.360 in fact, we frame it as dues paying that kind 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.080 of get through it. It's not that big a deal. 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:57.400 I'm kind of imagining anyone in your position who's so young, 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.240 who wants an opportunity, but you literally don't have a 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.920 framework for what a toxic boss is. I think that's 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:07.280 actually really an important thing to take away that, as 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:09.960 cynical as it may be, that I don't think it's 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:12.360 necessarily a bad thing to actually talk to young people 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.400 who are entering the workforce about what this actually is 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:16.560 and what this looks. 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:20.960 Like, especially in film and television and Hollywood in that 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.600 industry where it's almost kind of an expectation to endure 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:28.480 certain environments and kind of pay or dues a little bit. 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:34.720 So it's like young workers have no idea what it's like, 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:39.480 but then when they experience it, especially in Hollywood or media, 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.800 it's almost like they feel like they're expected to take 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:46.400 it and it's a part of the process. Yeah. 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:47.040 Absolutely. 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:51.600 Do you think that people like Scott sometimes pray on 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:54.040 young people, people who are just coming out of school 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.440 at the beginning of their careers because maybe there's a 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:57.920 belief that you don't know better. 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:00.920 Yeah, I think people who are more well established and 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.680 a bit older, they aren't going to endure that to 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.560 begin with. And I think nor do they have to 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:11.440 take certain opportunities because they're already established, They already have 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:13.840 their foot in the door, their career path is already 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.400 well on its way. But yeah, I would say that 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:21.800 he's veering towards this younger workforce because he knows that 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.120 they're going to be more apt to endure it. Because 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:27.760 when you were in his office and you looked around 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:31.600 at kind of the median age, I was only a 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:33.240 couple of years out of college and I was still 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.640 the oldest person, like aside from the office manager at 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:38.560 the time, you know, I was still the oldest assistant 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:40.000 or intern. 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:43.720 Yeah, there was a sort of inherent disposability that these 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:47.080 young people carried in that office, and that kind of 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.679 dehumanization really bothers me, especially when it's a young person. 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.400 So tell me about meeting Scott for the first time. 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:57.160 So I went in for I think it was really 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:01.080 only one round of interviews, and it was with Scott 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:05.120 and then his two associate producers at the time, and 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.160 it was pretty cordial for the most part, he was 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:13.480 actually fairly polite and kind and rather charming. I think 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:15.720 the only time I ever saw him like laugh or 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.240 smile at me was in that interview. There was no 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:21.760 indication that anything would be like the way it was, 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:26.480 you know, flash forward two months or so, so kind 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:30.280 of alleviated those like fears I had of oh my god, 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:31.680 am I going to be able to handle this? It 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:33.600 was kind of this reminder of like, oh, he's just 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.319 a man, and he was kind and cordial enough. 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.400 What was interesting, as you say that, as I'm imagining 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:41.640 and we think about, you know, people like who have 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:45.920 these kinds of bombastic personalities, I could stretch a little 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:49.560 and say a narcissistic personality. We think about love bombing, 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:52.040 and it seems like all the love bombing you got 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.520 in this job was like a smile and a minute 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:57.760 of kindness. We often think of like the dynamic that 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:00.200 applies in a new job where somebody's trying to you 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.200 over in recruitment and you're like, oh gosh, there's all 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.120 these great things that are going to happen, but it's 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:05.880 all relative. 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:07.800 And you were told so. 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:10.400 Many and you'd read perhaps so many things that were 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:12.959 like ooh, it's a really toxic, difficult guy, and if 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:14.640 he got the little bit of a laugh and a 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:17.720 bit of kindness, that might have been all it took 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:21.240 to say, Okay, I got this right. 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:23.000 And to give him some credit, he did get me 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:23.880 a Christmas gift. 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:25.440 But you know, well there you go. 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:27.760 I mean, so I know, right, you know, I do 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.959 know what you mean right where he kind of like 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.480 was predisposed to this, and he knew like there's only 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.600 a certain level of his personality that he could show 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:40.600 in that interview, because of course you go into an 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:44.440 interview and you see kind of like the volatile nature 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:46.640 or what he was like, there's no way you would 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.600 take that job. I'm sure some people might, but I 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:53.120 certainly wouldn't have. And so it was kind of to 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.600 lure me in a bit to see that softer side 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.000 of him, whatever you want to call it. But I 0:10:58.080 --> 0:10:59.400 think you're entirely right. 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.040 So after that, what was the first time you saw 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:04.600 the real Scott? 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:09.320 So after that, I was kind of like slowly transitioning 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:11.520 For a week or so, I had quote unquote of 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:15.240 my two weeks at my job, but it didn't really 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.040 turn out that way because I would go to the 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.400 office really early in the morning Scott's office, train for 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:24.200 a couple hours, then go to my other job, and 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:26.480 then go back to Scott's office at the end of 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:30.680 the day to train for the rest of the evening, 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:35.439 whether that was like eight, nine, ten o'clock whenever. And 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:37.560 so I think that week or two where I was 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:41.080 kind of transitioning and training is when I first got 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:45.960 a taste of what the hours and kind of like 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.480 work life was going to look like, which was like 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:53.000 very long hours, very go, go go. But didn't really 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.240 see much of Scott during that time, and he wouldn't 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:58.920 really pay much attention to me because I was training, 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.000 and so I I saw him raise his voice a 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:04.160 little bit, get kind of volatile, but it wasn't until 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:08.840 I really kind of fully started and was in the 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.960 office from start to finish when I started to see 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:19.520 him be volatile and angry towards me and the other assistance. 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:22.520 What was that like when he would be volatile, what 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:23.600 would that look like. 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:28.800 He would raise his voice, he would slam doors, and 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:30.960 the types of language she would use would just be 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:36.320 really degrading language. He would make you feel inferior, words 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:41.000 like useless and stupid, and moro on and just anything 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:45.680 to belittle the person he was talking down to. It 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:50.160 could happen to anyone for any reason. It was the 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:55.559 littlest thing that would cause him to be so volatile. 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.360 You think of like the Devil Wears product. 0:12:59.440 --> 0:12:59.560 Right. 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:04.920 You know, I was in charge of coordinating his schedule, 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.440 but also making sure he had a copy of his schedule, 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.720 and it would be something as minute or as small 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:16.480 as like a spelling error on the schedule that would 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.640 make him so angry to the point where he would 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:23.320 start kind of cursing and yelling and belittling. 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:25.720 We never believe that that's the kind of thing that's 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:27.960 going to set someone off to such a degree. Right, 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.360 First of all, it's never acceptable to use that kind 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:33.960 of language, to use that kind of tone in a workplace. Ever, 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:38.240 you could maybe imagine that perhaps if somebody transferred ten 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:41.440 million dollars of the company's money into and it was gone, 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:44.800 maybe some anger, maybe some loud volume, this is a 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:49.080 typo on a calendar. Were there other examples of those 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.400 kinds of instances, That kind of stuff being what would 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.880 create the volatility in the workplace really. 0:13:55.640 --> 0:14:01.280 Could come down to anything, whether it was the office 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.640 being disorderly in a way he didn't like, or not 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:08.559 getting tickets to a show, or not being able to 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.320 get a hold of someone on the phone, certain things 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.240 that we just had no control of. He wanted to 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.520 talk to someone and we couldn't get them on the 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.600 phone because they weren't answering, or they would were busy. 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.080 It was our fault, it was the assistant's fault. It 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:25.720 was the phone assistant's fault for not being able to 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.600 get a hold of someone even after trying, or if 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.640 someone just didn't want to schedule a meeting with him, 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:36.480 or someone didn't want to give tickets up because they 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:38.800 had done it a million times for Scott and he 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.160 never showed up to the show, and so they were 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:45.520 done giving these tickets, and so he would just become 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.520 volatile at the littlest things. You never knew when it 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:50.800 was going to happen. You could do everything right, and 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:54.400 you could do everything in your power to kind of 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.120 try and navigate that or foretell what it might be 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.920 that might set them off, but at the end of 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.400 the day wouldn't really matter, because he would find something 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:04.520 to be upset about. 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:15.400 My conversation will continue after this break. How would the 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.040 staff react. So if somebody was the target of this volatility, 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.000 the person who couldn't get the person on the phone, 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:23.280 the person who couldn't get the tickets, how would the 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.720 people in those positions, what would you observe happening for them? 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:27.440 How'd they react? 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:29.400 You would kind of just have to sit there and 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.720 take it and maybe say sorry, but then maybe not 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.680 say anything, because saying something might just make it worse. 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.440 And sometimes he would just stare at you and wait 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.320 for a response, and then as like a bystander, you'd 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:46.800 all just like turn your gaze, which makes you feel 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:50.120 a little bit guilty at the same time as the 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.560 person who has to just say nothing in that situation 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:57.920 and let the other person get verbally attacked. But at 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.280 the same time, you knew that that was you an 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:01.840 hour ago, and it was going to be you in 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.280 a couple hours. Men, when Scott wasn't in the office, 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.720 we would all joke and laugh about it, and that 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.520 was really our big coping mechanism while we were all 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:14.560 in office together. It was kind of just to make 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:16.640 light of it because what else he was supposed to do. 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:18.840 But while it was happening, yeah, there wasn't much you 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:23.040 could do or say that would fix it or make 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:24.000 him feel better. 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.840 I'm curious what was harder being on the receiving end 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.360 of it or watching someone be on the receiving end 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.400 of it of his volatility, of his rage. 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.960 For me, watching other people be subjected to it, because 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:39.560 you almost become numb to it at a certain point 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.280 of him doing that to you, it could just put 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.480 up that wall and compartmentalize it. But because there was 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:49.160 so many different assistance coming in and out of rotation, 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:51.880 there was just like new people that became kind of 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:56.480 the victims of his aggressiveness. It was just really hard 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:59.960 watching other people, people that became your friends and not 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.840 of this family, endure this and deal with this. 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.160 Yes, you've said a couple of things here that actually 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.359 just shed light on these kinds of toxic workplace situations. 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:14.560 Number one, the fact that there was some support amongst 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:16.359 all of you, that you were all witnessing it, you 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:19.520 were all going through it together and being able to 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.920 turn to each other. As hellish as it was, there 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:27.680 was actually a really important value to that. It would 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:29.879 be a lot worse to be stranded on the desert 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:30.560 island alone. 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:31.080 Kind of thing. 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.520 That's actually supported by the research literature on this, like 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:38.160 having colleagues and those circumstances can actually help people. There's 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:40.600 a couple of other things you brought up too, is 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:43.040 this idea of watching someone else go through it can 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.960 actually be equally traumatic. And there was also that anticipation piece, 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:49.920 it's a matter of time before this target comes looking 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.760 for me, and it's a reminder of how bad it 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:54.679 actually can be. And then there's the third thing you 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:56.800 brought up, which is you were all actually put in 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.840 one of the worst positions that beings could be put into, 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.479 which is to be asked to do something, to have 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.280 this tremendous, horrible consequence that you would have to face 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.480 if you couldn't do it, but to be very out 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:13.320 of control around getting it done. So if he basically 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:16.600 said to you, I want you to alphabetize a thousand 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.360 pieces of paper, that's just something you had to do. 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.320 You could put your head down and get it done. 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.520 But getting someone else on the phone, getting tickets that 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.760 can't be done, things that were fully out of your control, 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:31.320 there is a unique cruelty to that. Because you had 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:33.600 no control, you couldn't get those things done. 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:35.959 You eventually kind of just become numb to it and 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.760 kind of resigned to it because it doesn't matter how 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:42.119 well you do or how well you think you're doing. 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.760 It's just a matter of time before you see him 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.280 lash out or have him wash out at you. 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.119 I want to go back to this one specific thing 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:51.560 you brought up. 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.000 I know it's a detail, but it's a detail that 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:55.879 I think we could learn a lot from, which is 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.760 something as simple as the typo on the schedule. Right, 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.879 we're saying he reacted with rage. What did it really 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:05.920 look like when you did that? You make the type 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:07.680 of I don't know, a word is spelled wrong, there's 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.919 a period missing at the end of sense. Whatever, you know, 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.639 grand error you made. He comes in, he sees it, 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:16.359 he rages. What did that really look like? 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.199 Have like a specific memory in mind? Actually? And am 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.240 I allowed to swear on this swear away? Okay? Great? 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:25.679 He had his schedule in a very specific way. So 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:30.000 he had like a branded piece of stock paper that 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.119 was long and thin, and it had like his logo 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:35.320 at the bottom, and you'd have to print out his 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:39.359 schedule with the hour, who the meeting was with where 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.560 it was like in order and then print it out 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:45.479 and you would bring it to him, and if his 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.080 schedule updated or there was a change, kind of have 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.560 to like constantly be bringing him a new, fresh schedule 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:54.440 so he could like keep track of where he was 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:57.240 going and what he was doing. And I remember this 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.159 one instance where it brought him the updated schedule. He 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.200 was in his confidence room office and you have to 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:04.840 stand there while he looks it over and then just 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:06.880 shrugs you off or waves you off or tell you 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:08.919 like ask you like what the hell is this? Or 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:11.360 you know what's going on? But I remember him like 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.000 at one time crumpling it up, tossing it at me 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.239 and being like, what the fuck is this? And I 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:17.680 was like I don't know, and you'd be like get 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:19.760 the fuck out, go go, and you'd have to go 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.639 try and like figure out what was wrong. We're on 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:27.639 so little sleep, we're stressed, you're so exhausted, and like 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.000 those little details are so hard to manage, and so 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:34.679 I just remember like going through the schedule, nitpicking every detail, 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:37.440 like literally going like letter by letter till I found 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.440 that I had spelled someone's name wrong. But I remember 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.720 fixing it and then bringing back in fifteen minutes later 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:45.960 then it was good, Then it was fine. What always 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:48.600 stuck with me is he didn't want any of us 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:53.359 to learn, or to grow or to become better, Because 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:55.399 if that was the case, he'd be like, oh, like 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:57.560 thanks for bringing this, like just as a heads up, 0:20:57.600 --> 0:20:59.439 like you know, that's not how you spelled this person's name, 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:02.159 you know, and you'd go, that's great to know, got it, 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:04.920 like clocked for next time. But you know, with him, 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:05.679 it wasn't. 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.760 About that, which is dehumanizing, right. It's feeling like a 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:10.199 cog in a wheel. 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:10.600 It is. 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:14.000 This word of use is disposability. There was no interest 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:16.080 in your growth. In order to be interested in a 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.720 person's growth, you actually have to recognize them as separate 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.040 human beings that could grow rather than I mean, it'sn't 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:24.919 be anything's pen in my hand. I'm not interested in 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:27.280 the pen's growth. The pen has a function for me, 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:28.879 and when it runs out of ink, I'm going to 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:29.520 throw it out. 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:31.080 I really struggle. 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.919 With that dehumanization, especially when a young person's going through that. 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:36.040