WEBVTT - Conflict is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:21.356 Pushkin im Ave Higgins, and this is Solvable Interviews with 0:00:21.396 --> 0:00:24.676 the world's most innovative thinkers working to solve the world's 0:00:24.676 --> 0:00:28.796 biggest problems. My name is Victor Chin. I am the 0:00:28.876 --> 0:00:33.676 executive director for African Youth Initiative Network. I'm from Uganda 0:00:33.956 --> 0:00:36.756 and my solvable is to work hard and end civil 0:00:36.836 --> 0:00:41.196 wars in Africa, hopefully in my lifetime. So our guests 0:00:41.196 --> 0:00:45.036 this week is quite a remarkable person. Victor was the 0:00:45.116 --> 0:00:48.876 first Ugandan and the youngest ever African to be nominated 0:00:48.916 --> 0:00:51.876 for the Nobel Peace Prize. That was for his human 0:00:51.996 --> 0:00:56.356 rights work. He's basically a peace builder working in parts 0:00:56.396 --> 0:00:59.396 of the world where peace is most needed. There are 0:00:59.396 --> 0:01:03.156 fifty four countries in Africa, and despite a long history 0:01:03.276 --> 0:01:07.356 of colonialism and the newer and potentially even more deadly 0:01:07.436 --> 0:01:11.916 reality of climate chaos, many African nations are managing to 0:01:11.996 --> 0:01:16.996 flourish today. Though our solvable is the fifteen African countries 0:01:17.036 --> 0:01:21.436 that are currently involved in wars. Victor knows firsthand what 0:01:21.556 --> 0:01:23.836 it's like to come up in a war zone, having 0:01:23.876 --> 0:01:26.676 spent the first twenty one years of his life as 0:01:26.676 --> 0:01:30.076 a refugee. He was one of the three million people 0:01:30.236 --> 0:01:33.396 displaced by the civil war that has raged through Uganda 0:01:33.476 --> 0:01:37.476 since the nineteen eighties. That conflict has now spread to 0:01:37.556 --> 0:01:42.556 the neighboring countries of Satsudan, the Central African Republic, and Congo. 0:01:43.236 --> 0:01:46.236 Victor was born in nineteen eighty one during the Ugandan 0:01:46.236 --> 0:01:49.916 Civil War, a period when many different rebel groups were fighting, 0:01:50.596 --> 0:01:53.236 and then in nineteen eighty seven, he was only six 0:01:53.356 --> 0:01:56.956 years old and a particular rebel group sprang up in 0:01:57.036 --> 0:02:00.236 northern Uganda, where he lived with his family, a group 0:02:00.316 --> 0:02:05.316 that became notorious worldwide. They called themselves the Lord's Resistance 0:02:05.556 --> 0:02:08.996 Army the lra A, and the l ra A grew 0:02:09.356 --> 0:02:14.596 increasingly violent against civilians, abducting and killing tens of thousands 0:02:14.676 --> 0:02:19.236 of innocent people in northern Uganda and mutilating manny others. 0:02:19.276 --> 0:02:24.716 Their brutality against children was particularly severe. They would abduct 0:02:24.796 --> 0:02:28.516 children and force them to kill, making them into child soldiers. 0:02:28.556 --> 0:02:31.916 That was one of their hallmarks. Into thousand and three, 0:02:32.116 --> 0:02:36.916 Victor's own brother, O'Mara, was abducted by rebels. The family 0:02:36.996 --> 0:02:40.436 suspect Omara was forced to become a soldier, and sadly 0:02:40.596 --> 0:02:45.116 they never saw him again. Victor's life has been dedicated 0:02:45.116 --> 0:02:48.436 to his community and other victims of terror and conflict, 0:02:48.996 --> 0:02:53.316 namely by founding the African Youth Initiative Network. Even as 0:02:53.316 --> 0:02:56.436 the thirteen year old, he instinctively chose to fight for 0:02:56.556 --> 0:03:01.716 peace when manny around him despaired and took up weapons. Today, 0:03:01.756 --> 0:03:06.276 his organization works to treat both physical and emotional wounds 0:03:06.756 --> 0:03:11.156 and advocates a leadership that always chooses peace. You'll hear 0:03:11.196 --> 0:03:14.796 how in this conversation with Jacob Weisberg. It's a little 0:03:14.876 --> 0:03:18.716 longer than usual episode of Solvable because Victor's story is 0:03:18.836 --> 0:03:20.916 one that we just don't get to hear a lot, 0:03:21.036 --> 0:03:27.476 if at all, especially told firsthand and with such grace. Victor, 0:03:27.596 --> 0:03:31.676 what is the problem of civil war and violent conflict 0:03:31.716 --> 0:03:34.996 in Africa right now? The problem of civil war and 0:03:35.076 --> 0:03:39.476 violence in Africa right now is manifested in mass movement, 0:03:39.676 --> 0:03:43.676 the refugee crisis all over the continent. How you have 0:03:43.796 --> 0:03:49.076 seen the international media the young people dying trying to 0:03:49.196 --> 0:03:53.196 escape from Africa to Europe. In the Mediterranean Sea, we 0:03:53.276 --> 0:03:59.396 have seen outbreak of preventable diseases which escalate and becomes 0:03:59.556 --> 0:04:03.676 more disasters because humanity is caught up in the struggle 0:04:03.756 --> 0:04:06.876 for survival. They can't afford to care for their own 0:04:07.436 --> 0:04:10.796 and we've seen increase is death, you know, due to 0:04:10.996 --> 0:04:14.556 civil war. We've also seen a lot of xenophobic attack 0:04:14.596 --> 0:04:17.916 in South Africa. You know, there's the continent, there's such alleges, 0:04:18.076 --> 0:04:22.556 so much in terms of conflict related movement that results 0:04:22.556 --> 0:04:28.276 into more tension, tribal differences, ethnic conflict and so much 0:04:28.316 --> 0:04:31.996 trangles of our properties and in so many ways natural 0:04:32.036 --> 0:04:35.916 disasters continues to be difficult to manage because humanity are 0:04:35.916 --> 0:04:39.516 caught up fighting. What are the major wars in Africa 0:04:39.636 --> 0:04:43.116 right now and how many people are affected, how many 0:04:43.116 --> 0:04:46.236 people die in those wars, and how many people die 0:04:46.276 --> 0:04:48.996 and are made refugees as a result of those wars. 0:04:49.076 --> 0:04:51.436 To even look at it a bit back in the 0:04:51.556 --> 0:04:57.196 history study has always saw that after every twenty years 0:04:57.556 --> 0:05:01.316 massa roseis happens in Africa, especially in the Great Legs. 0:05:02.276 --> 0:05:07.276 We've seen the windows of nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies, nineteen 0:05:07.316 --> 0:05:10.076 eighties and nineteen nineties. Night is when we at the 0:05:10.156 --> 0:05:15.676 random general side, they are trustees in the four in Congo, 0:05:15.876 --> 0:05:18.676 in northern Uganda the population went through the civil war 0:05:18.796 --> 0:05:22.556 over twenty years, and Central Africa we have Mali. We 0:05:22.636 --> 0:05:26.636 have Somalia falling apart. So if you look more, especially 0:05:26.636 --> 0:05:29.636 in the Great Legs region, we are in that window 0:05:29.756 --> 0:05:34.636 right now, window of possible Massa trustees. So we are 0:05:35.076 --> 0:05:40.156 continue to see the instability in Somalia, the al Shabab conflict. 0:05:40.236 --> 0:05:44.996 Of course, it's the international community, the African Union working 0:05:45.036 --> 0:05:49.596 towards trying to pacify Somalia by supporting the government. But 0:05:49.756 --> 0:05:53.436 still it's a big and challenging civil war that continues 0:05:53.476 --> 0:05:57.076 to have worked not only Somalia but also the entire region. 0:05:57.956 --> 0:06:01.996 And worst we're seeing right now is a continued conflict 0:06:02.076 --> 0:06:06.476 in de Raca. Unfortunately, the Congress people have been through 0:06:06.596 --> 0:06:10.276 the worst of the worst in life rich nation, such 0:06:10.596 --> 0:06:14.876 vast potential. The Congress people have never seen a moment 0:06:14.916 --> 0:06:17.356 of peace at all, and you wonder how long and 0:06:17.476 --> 0:06:21.036 this score. But also we're seeing, you know, different countries 0:06:21.036 --> 0:06:24.116 in the region have Ugandan rebel groups. In Congo, the 0:06:24.316 --> 0:06:28.796 ADF doing mastercruitment and is linked now to ISIS, and 0:06:28.836 --> 0:06:31.996 they're doing recruitment within East Africa and even the Southern 0:06:31.996 --> 0:06:34.756 African countries. And this is growing up to be a 0:06:34.876 --> 0:06:39.116 very potential disasters conflict. But of course you're also aware 0:06:39.156 --> 0:06:42.476 of what's going in South Sudan the last five years 0:06:42.476 --> 0:06:46.036 has been so vicious that hundreds of thousands have died, 0:06:46.156 --> 0:06:50.036 millions are displaced. I'm from Northern Uganda where we are 0:06:50.036 --> 0:06:53.876 doing our work to support post conflict recovery. But also 0:06:53.916 --> 0:06:56.836 this is the region that currently host over one point 0:06:56.916 --> 0:07:00.036 two million refugees from South then from Congo, from Central 0:07:00.036 --> 0:07:03.996 African Republic. You can imagine the pressure. A communister has 0:07:03.996 --> 0:07:06.436 been through war for over twenty years without so much. 0:07:07.436 --> 0:07:11.476 Now it's condition is first to us another million refugees, 0:07:11.796 --> 0:07:14.956 so the depression ever stops. So the conflicten souths done. 0:07:15.596 --> 0:07:18.556 You know, in the race in Central African public and 0:07:18.756 --> 0:07:22.756 Malle is horrible. Deministration in Malley is not even getting 0:07:23.156 --> 0:07:26.316 better anymore. And of course live alone Libya and you 0:07:26.356 --> 0:07:30.156 know the potential Egypt is just traveling to stabilize. And 0:07:30.396 --> 0:07:33.156 in West Africa, of course there's so much to do 0:07:33.196 --> 0:07:36.756 in terms of historical injustice, historical conflict that has not 0:07:36.796 --> 0:07:40.076 been addressed, and this has got the potential. So the 0:07:40.196 --> 0:07:43.476 number of people dying I can't tell exactly, but so 0:07:43.596 --> 0:07:47.596 many people are dying every day due to war related crisis, 0:07:47.636 --> 0:07:52.436 either being killed in battlefields or as a result of war, poverty, disease. 0:07:52.796 --> 0:07:54.996 I want to hear about your story. I know you 0:07:55.036 --> 0:07:57.236 grew up and spent most of the years of your 0:07:57.316 --> 0:07:59.916 life and a refugee camp. How did you end up there? 0:08:00.116 --> 0:08:04.356 I was born in northern Uganda, in the district Cholera, 0:08:05.556 --> 0:08:08.676 and I was born in nineteen eighty one, just immediately 0:08:08.716 --> 0:08:14.876 after Dictator Idioman was deposed of power. And in that 0:08:14.916 --> 0:08:20.076 community there were more than ten rebel groups operating, including 0:08:20.076 --> 0:08:25.076 the current government was in the bush fighting and where 0:08:25.076 --> 0:08:27.836 I grew up, I could see the only vehicle I 0:08:27.876 --> 0:08:30.356 saw as a child was a military truck. There's no 0:08:30.476 --> 0:08:34.956 other vehicle. The only flying object the plane I saw 0:08:35.156 --> 0:08:38.196 was their captor, the military captor and jet fighters and 0:08:38.356 --> 0:08:42.876 bombing us and we won. That said, what is going on? 0:08:42.956 --> 0:08:46.196 And how long can disco? So? I was born in conflict, 0:08:46.516 --> 0:08:49.716 I grew up in conflict, and then it went on 0:08:49.876 --> 0:08:55.796 to the community, went into experience, continued to cut rustling 0:08:55.836 --> 0:09:00.756 by never in cultural tribal groups. Then the Lord Decision's 0:09:00.836 --> 0:09:03.836 army emerged and that became the worst of the worst 0:09:03.916 --> 0:09:07.836 in Uganda's history of conflict. It started close to our 0:09:07.916 --> 0:09:12.796 home and we were at the immediate target by the 0:09:13.036 --> 0:09:15.436 lay but also we are the media. Our community was 0:09:15.476 --> 0:09:18.236 the media target by the government battle field, so we 0:09:18.356 --> 0:09:21.316 became the center of battle for both government and a 0:09:21.316 --> 0:09:24.076 lot of resisions, I mean, and this went on. As 0:09:24.116 --> 0:09:26.996 a child, I could see I was wondering how long 0:09:27.076 --> 0:09:29.076 was it going to end? It took us twenty years 0:09:29.116 --> 0:09:31.796 to get out of that. So my growth I grew 0:09:31.836 --> 0:09:36.116 up in war. I grew up in the camp. I 0:09:36.196 --> 0:09:38.836 spent my childhood, as you know, in the camp. Growing up, 0:09:39.076 --> 0:09:41.996 I studied in the camp. I survived all the war 0:09:42.196 --> 0:09:50.836 related you know, challenges including health, education, feeding, shelter and 0:09:51.036 --> 0:09:53.956 one of the people who spent over seven years eating 0:09:53.956 --> 0:09:56.556 one meal a day. We didn't have food. My parents 0:09:56.556 --> 0:10:00.676 are too poor in terms of education, you know, it 0:10:00.716 --> 0:10:03.676 was even the more challenging. Of course, in conflict, education 0:10:03.796 --> 0:10:06.836 is not the priority. The biggest worry is for every 0:10:06.916 --> 0:10:09.996 child is if I will get the next That was 0:10:10.036 --> 0:10:14.036 the most wedding experience as a child, because it was 0:10:14.116 --> 0:10:16.556 always the tough to way that you wake up in 0:10:16.556 --> 0:10:19.436 the morning until four pm, you've got nothing to eat, 0:10:19.516 --> 0:10:22.316 and then you eat until the next day four pm. 0:10:22.356 --> 0:10:24.076 That is the life I grew up in. That's the 0:10:24.156 --> 0:10:27.356 life I survived and I start to struggle with my education, 0:10:27.556 --> 0:10:31.116 with my health. I survived. There was twice about outbreak 0:10:31.236 --> 0:10:36.076 in my community and live alone, manigieties, malaria. I went 0:10:36.116 --> 0:10:40.436 through anything that walk on course. And you've talked about 0:10:40.516 --> 0:10:45.156 the cycle of violence and revenge that people who are 0:10:45.316 --> 0:10:49.996 victims of war become warriors and one justice, but it 0:10:50.036 --> 0:10:53.636 perpetuates the cycle of violence. How do you break that cycle? 0:10:53.836 --> 0:10:57.076 To break the cycle of war and violence, it's easy 0:10:57.156 --> 0:11:01.236 said than easy. Then, First of all, walk with so 0:11:01.356 --> 0:11:06.396 much amount of trauma and the trauma needs to be healed, 0:11:07.396 --> 0:11:10.676 if not illed, trauma crits that a war then becomes 0:11:10.756 --> 0:11:14.116 war trauma, trauma, war cycle. You need to get to 0:11:14.116 --> 0:11:18.236 a point of breaking that, and it also becomes generational. 0:11:18.756 --> 0:11:23.476 When children are born in conflict, their parents would always 0:11:23.476 --> 0:11:25.836 be asked why are we being killed? Why are we 0:11:25.876 --> 0:11:28.236 being targeted? And these are the question that most parents 0:11:28.236 --> 0:11:31.796 doesn't have an answers. But then the question comes in 0:11:31.996 --> 0:11:34.676 the parents reach the point of saying, we are suffering 0:11:34.716 --> 0:11:38.036 because of that tribe, we are suffering because of them. 0:11:38.116 --> 0:11:41.836 That's already telling the child who their enemies are. So 0:11:41.956 --> 0:11:48.156 that transgenerational, cross generational transfer of trauma of pain is 0:11:48.196 --> 0:11:51.036 like planting in the new seats of violence in that 0:11:51.196 --> 0:11:53.956 child who's being told who you are, enemies are, so 0:11:54.076 --> 0:11:56.556 you have somebody to hit as soon as you can 0:11:56.716 --> 0:11:59.316 understand the world you're growing up with who you are, 0:11:59.396 --> 0:12:02.156 enemies are, with what you want to do next time 0:12:02.196 --> 0:12:05.236 you have opportunity to revenge, to strike back, to let 0:12:05.276 --> 0:12:08.556 them feel the pain everybody. As a child, I wanted 0:12:08.596 --> 0:12:11.076 to study it, become a doctor, to become a journalist, 0:12:11.156 --> 0:12:14.636 to become a you know, a pilot like another person's. 0:12:14.636 --> 0:12:19.516 But when walking, everything turned around. All became about survival. 0:12:19.796 --> 0:12:23.556 You're walking now and all of a sudden, two people 0:12:23.636 --> 0:12:26.676 get blown by landmines right in front of you. You're 0:12:26.716 --> 0:12:28.676 playing with your friends and within a few minutes we 0:12:28.796 --> 0:12:30.996 separated the bat. They are taken and they've never been 0:12:31.036 --> 0:12:34.396 seen again. You're just playing football. There was a moment 0:12:34.436 --> 0:12:36.676 when we were playing football. We made our own ball 0:12:37.356 --> 0:12:39.556 because there was no football we were in the camp. 0:12:40.196 --> 0:12:42.156 We bought one hundred of us. We made our own 0:12:42.156 --> 0:12:45.956 ball and we were kicking, kicking, and one of the 0:12:46.076 --> 0:12:50.356 elders came and so our ball made out of rugs. 0:12:50.516 --> 0:12:53.196 You know, we were playing kicking around hand falling, and 0:12:53.236 --> 0:12:56.476 he came and picked and said, kids, what are you kicking? Said, 0:12:56.556 --> 0:12:59.196 made our own ball. We're very excited. And then when 0:12:59.196 --> 0:13:03.996 he unveiled it, he found something wrong. It was a bomb. 0:13:04.156 --> 0:13:08.356 It was unexploded bomb. And then we were told that 0:13:08.436 --> 0:13:12.676 this is a bomb. Run. We're took off in many directions, 0:13:12.916 --> 0:13:19.836 crying and shouting, and we're afraid if this bomb blow 0:13:19.916 --> 0:13:22.396 her over one of the devasts, we're going to be dead. 0:13:22.916 --> 0:13:26.196 The question is who is next? Then becomes you. You 0:13:26.276 --> 0:13:28.316 are the next line. You can be blown off, you 0:13:28.316 --> 0:13:32.516 can walking alone, even be abducted. Every painful moment was 0:13:32.556 --> 0:13:35.836 to see your mom leaving home to fetch water. The 0:13:35.996 --> 0:13:38.796 big fear was will seek him back on my life? 0:13:39.556 --> 0:13:42.716 Will see not be blown by landlines, will see not 0:13:42.836 --> 0:13:45.396 be wrapped by the man in uniform. So this was 0:13:45.476 --> 0:13:50.676 every child's biggest fear. You know, the feeling of learndliness, powerlessness, 0:13:50.796 --> 0:13:53.676 and you feel unwanted, you feel though you don't belong. 0:13:54.156 --> 0:13:56.356 So this is the kind of spirit, the kind of 0:13:56.356 --> 0:14:00.476 feeling that renews and continues to perpetuate, and you know 0:14:01.036 --> 0:14:03.316 the trend of violence because the child will grown knowing 0:14:03.396 --> 0:14:06.396 that I have to do something to prove to my 0:14:06.476 --> 0:14:09.236 parents that I love them for what they did to 0:14:09.276 --> 0:14:12.596 me by retaliating. One of the cruelest aspects this is 0:14:13.316 --> 0:14:18.636 children who are kidnapped and turned into soldiers. They're victims, 0:14:18.676 --> 0:14:23.796 but they become perpetrators as well. It is very clear, 0:14:24.956 --> 0:14:31.556 almost obvious, that a child victims, if not properly rehabilitated, 0:14:31.636 --> 0:14:36.036 becomes an adult perpetrator. They're so indoctrinated. They are told 0:14:36.076 --> 0:14:38.796 would to kill, how to kill, where to kill, when 0:14:38.876 --> 0:14:42.716 to kill, and this is all their land. And once 0:14:42.716 --> 0:14:47.196 a child is misinformed and made to go through experience 0:14:47.236 --> 0:14:50.356 which is so painful. Like Northern Yogana, what I saw, 0:14:51.556 --> 0:14:55.676 kids as young as teniers and below were abducted and 0:14:55.716 --> 0:14:58.316 they are forced to kill their own parents before they 0:14:58.316 --> 0:15:00.796 are taken. You don't want to come back home. What 0:15:00.876 --> 0:15:02.676 are you going to do back home? Because you killed 0:15:02.756 --> 0:15:05.756 your own father in front of you had assistance, They 0:15:05.756 --> 0:15:08.556 saw that you're the one hitting, You're the one beating 0:15:08.636 --> 0:15:10.916 until they died, and then they took you away. So 0:15:10.996 --> 0:15:13.116 that kid, when it's in captivity, we never want to 0:15:13.116 --> 0:15:15.716 come back home. That is vicious. That is a very 0:15:15.796 --> 0:15:18.956 challenging part and now also comes into the issues of 0:15:19.276 --> 0:15:22.796 the role parents plays. Parents go through too much during war, 0:15:23.036 --> 0:15:26.396 especially women. I know in Africa there's that sense of 0:15:26.396 --> 0:15:28.876 feeling that a man, you must be strong to provide 0:15:28.876 --> 0:15:31.396 for your family, to protect your family. But when you 0:15:31.396 --> 0:15:34.396 are so powerless, there's that moment in war that you 0:15:34.396 --> 0:15:37.476 are too powerless to protect your own and that moment 0:15:37.516 --> 0:15:41.436 of vulnerability is when a lot of men gave up. 0:15:41.636 --> 0:15:43.636 Either they picked up began to go and fight in 0:15:44.156 --> 0:15:50.076 in being powerless, powerless and hopelessness or the committed society. 0:15:50.316 --> 0:15:52.756 A lot of men died during conflict. A lot of 0:15:52.796 --> 0:15:57.276 women demonstrated much more strength during conflict than men because 0:15:57.276 --> 0:15:58.756 a woman will say, okay, we know we are not 0:15:58.796 --> 0:16:01.356 supposed to be so powerful, we're supposed to be able 0:16:01.356 --> 0:16:03.996 to fast it, and they will do every risk to 0:16:04.036 --> 0:16:07.476 protect their family. But now in the post conflict verity, 0:16:08.116 --> 0:16:12.916 war is manifest team more in women than men because 0:16:12.916 --> 0:16:16.196 throughout all this time for women going through this process, 0:16:16.316 --> 0:16:20.196 they took too much. They sold a lot of strength 0:16:20.236 --> 0:16:24.076 and demonstrated, you know, power in the face of adversity. 0:16:24.236 --> 0:16:28.716 But now a lot of men in the post conflict 0:16:28.716 --> 0:16:30.716 are not as affected that women. You know, we can 0:16:30.756 --> 0:16:35.796 see manifesting so heavily in women and the trauma, the pain, 0:16:36.556 --> 0:16:38.516 and this is where the child say, this is the 0:16:38.596 --> 0:16:41.436 reason war is the reason why my mother is going 0:16:41.436 --> 0:16:43.876 through this kind of pain. I have to do something now. 0:16:43.916 --> 0:16:47.876 That's when they become adult perpetrators. They're looking forward to retaliate, 0:16:48.276 --> 0:16:51.116 to revenge, to strike back. And that's why I think 0:16:51.636 --> 0:16:55.156 parents or families plays a big role, because world destroys 0:16:55.196 --> 0:16:59.436 the most important institution in families torn a path, society 0:16:59.476 --> 0:17:02.476 down a path. I want to know what made you, 0:17:02.996 --> 0:17:05.276 growing up in a refugee camp as a young man, 0:17:06.036 --> 0:17:08.836 choose the path you did and think about breaking this 0:17:09.116 --> 0:17:12.956 cycle instead of, as you said, the path of despair 0:17:13.276 --> 0:17:16.636 or continuing the cycle of violence and seeking revenge yourself. 0:17:17.356 --> 0:17:20.716 I've seen the best humanity can do and the worst 0:17:20.876 --> 0:17:25.116 humanity can do. I reached a point where I was exhausted. 0:17:25.876 --> 0:17:30.716 I was tired. I was tired of my own insecurity, 0:17:31.076 --> 0:17:33.916 my fear I was I wasn't sure if I was 0:17:33.996 --> 0:17:36.756 the one was wrong. As a child, I kept on 0:17:36.876 --> 0:17:40.676 asking myself what did we do to deserve all these 0:17:40.756 --> 0:17:43.476 kinds of It would be raining heavier than this, but 0:17:43.636 --> 0:17:45.916 you have to run and sleep in the rain, without tent, 0:17:46.036 --> 0:17:49.556 without cover, without shelter. And this was not for a year. 0:17:50.316 --> 0:17:54.596 We waited for war to end. Took years, took ten years, 0:17:54.636 --> 0:17:58.356 over became twenty years. War was still continuing, stronger and stronger. 0:17:59.516 --> 0:18:03.276 But then as a child, it reached a particular moment 0:18:03.316 --> 0:18:07.276 when I think I was on the brink of giving 0:18:07.356 --> 0:18:11.876 up like another kids. I saw my friends who are 0:18:11.996 --> 0:18:16.396 running in and out from Monday to Monday. We every 0:18:16.516 --> 0:18:19.676 next two hours run. You're being chest surviving attack to 0:18:19.756 --> 0:18:25.636 surviving landmines. And life became so complicated, and I saw 0:18:25.636 --> 0:18:30.356 my friends volunteered, somebody volunteered to be adapted. Said, even 0:18:30.356 --> 0:18:33.396 if I stay, I'm not being protected. I have no choice, 0:18:33.436 --> 0:18:36.556 but let me just go. If I go, I'll probably 0:18:37.036 --> 0:18:39.076 have a gun. I'll be in charging my own security. 0:18:39.516 --> 0:18:42.356 I'll kill somebody, or somebody might kill me. This was 0:18:42.396 --> 0:18:45.636 a despair. We went to fetch water in the morning, 0:18:46.156 --> 0:18:48.996 in a group of about eight to ten of us. 0:18:49.316 --> 0:18:53.236 On our way to fetch water, two people in front 0:18:53.276 --> 0:18:57.436 god blown by landmines. Boom. We took off running back 0:18:58.956 --> 0:19:03.956 without a small container jarragon for water. Were crying running 0:19:03.956 --> 0:19:09.756 towards home. When he got home and my mom told 0:19:09.756 --> 0:19:12.716 me to go and pick up some goats because he said, 0:19:12.756 --> 0:19:15.076 now that the landman said, that means the rebels are round, 0:19:15.156 --> 0:19:17.116 So take on and and get the goats and bring them. 0:19:17.756 --> 0:19:20.556 And then when er I left my friend at home, 0:19:21.676 --> 0:19:23.916 I went like for a distance on all in all, 0:19:23.996 --> 0:19:26.276 the process took less than five minutes. When I was 0:19:26.276 --> 0:19:29.516 speaking the goat pulling it home, I came and asked 0:19:29.516 --> 0:19:32.876 my mum, where did my friends go? They said, they've 0:19:32.916 --> 0:19:36.636 all been taken away, said by Woo, said the riva 0:19:36.716 --> 0:19:41.476 just took them right now. And that's how I survived 0:19:41.476 --> 0:19:46.356 that man one particular moment, and I I was just lost. 0:19:46.516 --> 0:19:48.756 I said, no in the morning, some who were blown 0:19:48.756 --> 0:19:52.796 by land mine just now. Some are taken already, and 0:19:52.876 --> 0:19:57.476 the question is who next. It became me. I was next, 0:19:57.716 --> 0:19:59.836 and that's when I realized that it was no longer 0:19:59.916 --> 0:20:02.196 far and it was just a matter of time before 0:20:02.196 --> 0:20:06.596 I'm taken. And we Mum said, no, don't mind, it 0:20:06.676 --> 0:20:09.116 will be fine. Let us keep on trying as much 0:20:09.156 --> 0:20:11.636 as we can. Then there was all of a sudden 0:20:11.636 --> 0:20:15.316 gunswers we ran and came back. When he came back 0:20:15.316 --> 0:20:18.276 home after a few hours, we found like so many 0:20:18.316 --> 0:20:23.876 dead bodies at home. And I remember my mom shouting 0:20:23.876 --> 0:20:27.636 and crying loud. Who met the gun? That was a statement, 0:20:29.756 --> 0:20:34.956 who met the gun? Who manufactured the gun? Shouting at us, 0:20:35.036 --> 0:20:38.356 look at every one of us. We don't have the question. 0:20:38.516 --> 0:20:40.116 We don't have the answer to the question who made 0:20:40.116 --> 0:20:44.036 the gun? But she kept who made the gun? Why 0:20:44.036 --> 0:20:47.796 a gun coming to kill children? Women? What did they do? 0:20:47.996 --> 0:20:51.996 Who made the gun? That was like she was crying 0:20:52.036 --> 0:20:55.436 and you could tell she was powerless. We didn't have 0:20:55.516 --> 0:20:59.156 answer to a question, but that was a repeated question, 0:20:59.196 --> 0:21:03.676 and who met the gun. The next day, so the 0:21:03.756 --> 0:21:07.916 government military track came and everybody was running towards the 0:21:07.956 --> 0:21:10.716 camp center, and I asked, Mom, said, what is that. 0:21:10.836 --> 0:21:15.076 They said that the government has brought a lot of weapons, 0:21:15.116 --> 0:21:17.836 and they're saying anybody who can shoot a gunslow to 0:21:17.956 --> 0:21:22.556 shoot a gun. So they even brought the child friendly 0:21:22.676 --> 0:21:27.676 uniform military uniform. So it meant that women, men, children, 0:21:27.836 --> 0:21:30.116 everybody who can fire the gun should go and pick 0:21:30.196 --> 0:21:33.316 up the uniform. I saw people running and I told Mom, 0:21:33.356 --> 0:21:37.476 I'm not going, so yes, don't go. So my remaining friends, 0:21:37.796 --> 0:21:41.756 out of despair, picked up the uniform, picked up the weapons. 0:21:41.916 --> 0:21:44.196 They were trained for a few hours. They were deployed 0:21:44.676 --> 0:21:47.876 to fight the rebels. You were how old? I think 0:21:47.916 --> 0:21:50.956 I was thirteen. Some were younger than me actually went 0:21:51.036 --> 0:21:53.916 and pick up the uniform. We didn't have clothing. Some 0:21:54.156 --> 0:21:57.196 went because they wanted something to wear. Myself, I had 0:21:57.236 --> 0:22:00.276 only one pair of shot. There was nothing else. So 0:22:01.956 --> 0:22:05.236 when I told myself I'm not going, and then said, perfect, 0:22:05.316 --> 0:22:10.196 don't go. When they went, kids as young and women 0:22:10.276 --> 0:22:12.636 with children in their back became the guns. They were 0:22:12.676 --> 0:22:17.316 trained and order. The rebel waited for them, were laid 0:22:17.356 --> 0:22:20.956 them and pushed them, disarmed them. Some who try to 0:22:21.116 --> 0:22:24.876 just were killed somewhere their hands, nose, he has lips 0:22:24.876 --> 0:22:29.956 cut off, and some were taken. Those whose world you 0:22:29.996 --> 0:22:32.916 know this figure. Those who were mutilated were sent back 0:22:32.956 --> 0:22:36.356 home with their body parts at turn. Take this to 0:22:36.396 --> 0:22:39.716 take government. Take it to seven. This was a message 0:22:39.716 --> 0:22:44.116 from Lay. In the evening, there was crying all over 0:22:44.156 --> 0:22:46.356 the camp, and I said, this is it. How long 0:22:46.396 --> 0:22:49.316 can disco? The next day I said I'm not going 0:22:49.356 --> 0:22:52.156 to sit and watch. When I did, I went and 0:22:52.276 --> 0:22:55.196 I sat three hundred meters away from the child soldiers 0:22:55.236 --> 0:22:59.116 recruitment center, and I started pushing my friends who were 0:22:59.116 --> 0:23:02.116 coming to join, because they said, you come, come, everybody 0:23:02.196 --> 0:23:05.716 was out of frustration who were coming. I would stand there, 0:23:06.356 --> 0:23:08.996 I would stop them, talk, don't go, You'll be killed. 0:23:09.436 --> 0:23:14.036 People that I was joking. I became hated by some 0:23:14.116 --> 0:23:18.196 of them. My name also future to the rebel camp 0:23:18.316 --> 0:23:22.836 that I was the one discouraging young people from joining them. 0:23:22.996 --> 0:23:25.436 My name was also with the government troops that I 0:23:25.516 --> 0:23:29.476 was the campaigning discouraging patriotic young people want to protect 0:23:29.476 --> 0:23:33.156 their community. And for the first time both rebels and 0:23:33.156 --> 0:23:35.556 the government troops from their common enemy that was me. 0:23:36.836 --> 0:23:39.916 It went on to become so difficult and so complicated. 0:23:40.636 --> 0:23:45.276 We were struggling in all ways with education. My parents 0:23:45.316 --> 0:23:47.916 couldn't even afford to buy a pencil. They were that poor. 0:23:48.476 --> 0:23:51.156 And the worst of the worst came. I lost my 0:23:51.236 --> 0:23:54.956 mom when she was started by malaria. There's no medicine, 0:23:55.276 --> 0:24:00.916 and the road to town, which is about twenty five kilometers, 0:24:01.836 --> 0:24:05.076 was blocked by several camps of the rebel. Rebel camps, 0:24:05.436 --> 0:24:08.036 we tried as much as we could to get medicine 0:24:08.036 --> 0:24:12.636 for a mom. There's no single government health centers working, 0:24:13.236 --> 0:24:17.476 no private health center. We didn't even have money. There's nothing. 0:24:17.836 --> 0:24:21.636 Then my brother, whom we followed, was two years older 0:24:21.676 --> 0:24:23.316 than me. We sent him to town. That can you 0:24:23.356 --> 0:24:27.236 go and pick up medicine from the government hospital in town? 0:24:27.716 --> 0:24:30.596 He had to walk through the bush. Took him almost 0:24:30.636 --> 0:24:33.796 twelve hours to go through the bush from Holli morning 0:24:33.836 --> 0:24:36.236 when they still dark to late night when they still dark. 0:24:36.516 --> 0:24:38.836 When he got to town and he went to the 0:24:38.876 --> 0:24:41.516 government hospital and said that our mom is very sick 0:24:41.716 --> 0:24:44.036 and we don't have we don't know, we don't have 0:24:44.076 --> 0:24:46.716 any means to bring up. We don't have a bicycle. Then, 0:24:48.156 --> 0:24:50.876 so we have come to get medicine. And then the 0:24:50.916 --> 0:24:52.996 government also told him that no, we have to pay 0:24:53.236 --> 0:24:56.436 an equivalent of half a dollar to get medicine. He 0:24:56.516 --> 0:24:59.396 didn't have the money went back home without So when 0:24:59.436 --> 0:25:01.796 my brother went back and said, we did not manage, 0:25:02.236 --> 0:25:05.676 so maybe we should take our mom get away of 0:25:05.716 --> 0:25:09.036