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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, thank you for joining us for Legally Brunette.

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Speaker 1: I'll be your host today Emily Simpson with Shane. First

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Speaker 1: of all, we're going to go into for the bulk

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Speaker 1: of this episode, we're going to go into the Amanda

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Speaker 1: Knox story. But first I just want to start with

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Speaker 1: a little update about Brian Coberger because there's been so

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Speaker 1: many things in the news about him, and every time

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Speaker 1: I pull up and when I say news, my news

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Speaker 1: sources Instagram. So when I pull up Instagram, very very

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Speaker 1: reliable news in my Instagram feed, lots of things about

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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger. So let's just do a little update. I

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Speaker 1: like to do updates on some of the things that

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Speaker 1: we've talked about previously.

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Speaker 2: He's still in jail, He's still in prison.

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Speaker 1: Reports indicate that inmates at the Idaho Maximum Security Institution

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Speaker 1: have found ways to make his life very difficult. According

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Speaker 1: to a retired homicide detective, his name is Chris mcdonnaugh,

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Speaker 1: prisoners have been shouting through aravins, banging on doors, and

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Speaker 1: verbally taunting him. I also so read that they have

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Speaker 1: done it in a way where it's very organized. They

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Speaker 1: actually shift. They do it in shifts, so that it's

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Speaker 1: twenty four to seven, so that he.

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Speaker 3: Never gets But wouldn't that annoy the other prisoners, Like

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Speaker 3: if I was, like, I.

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Speaker 2: Didn't murder four people. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: That's a good question. I didn't think about that. But

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Speaker 1: I don't know if yeah, I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how they went.

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Speaker 3: If they're all on the same page and they're all

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Speaker 3: well to do it, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they do it in a way where the people

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Speaker 1: farthest from him take naps while everyone else is tormenting him,

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Speaker 1: and then they do it in ships. But anyway, so

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Speaker 1: they've been banging on doors verbally taunting him, and it

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Speaker 1: has been described as psychological torture intended to deprive him

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Speaker 1: of rest and peace of mind. The Idaho Department of

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Speaker 1: Corrections confirm that Coburger has voice concerns about what he

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Speaker 1: calls harassment, but emphasize that inmates often communicate with one

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Speaker 1: another through prison infrastructure. Officials have stress that he were

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Speaker 1: housed alone in his cell and that staff continued to

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Speaker 1: enforce safety and order. Basically, they're just like, what do

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Speaker 1: you What are you gonna do about it? And mates

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Speaker 1: have found ways to communicate with each other and so

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Speaker 1: they came up with some organized way to taunt him.

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Speaker 1: I actually, I don't feel badly no, I mean, are

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Speaker 1: we supposed to feel badly for Brian Coburger boo?

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Speaker 3: Who Yeah, that's a form of hierarchy too in these prisons.

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Speaker 1: This is interesting because after he pleaded or he took

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Speaker 1: his plea deal, all these new documents have been released

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Speaker 1: about the case, and one of them was very interesting.

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Speaker 1: It was that he faced many complaints when he was

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Speaker 1: at Washington State. So newly released documents and witness statements

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Speaker 1: revealed that Brian Coberger faced a total of thirteen complaints

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Speaker 1: while he was at Washington State University by the end

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Speaker 1: of just his first semester in his PhD program.

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Speaker 3: What were the comlients.

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Speaker 1: One student who was divorced were called that Coburger told

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Speaker 1: her he did not date quote broken women, while another

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Speaker 1: student who was deaf, was asked by cob whether she

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Speaker 1: should consider having children given her disability. I guess he's

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Speaker 1: just out there offending everyone, basically. Several classmates and staff

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Speaker 1: reported that he frequently stared and vaded personal space and

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Speaker 1: cornered people into unwanted conversations.

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Speaker 3: A lot of those women are probably like, holy crap,

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Speaker 3: he could have he was staring at me, he could

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Speaker 3: have killed me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I could have been the one on the list.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's really once you I mean, can

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Speaker 1: you imagine learning later that you just went to school

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Speaker 1: with or just you know, had conversations or class with

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Speaker 1: somewhat like a serial killer or.

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Speaker 3: Something, that twenty years later he killed someone else, like

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Speaker 3: during that time that semester.

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Speaker 1: Right, a younger undergraduate working in the criminology department, said

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Speaker 1: she eventually needed rides home from her boss just to

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Speaker 1: avoid walking or taking the bus alone in fear of Coburger.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that's how bad he was bad

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Speaker 1: he is. Administrators ultimately required first year doctoral students to

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Speaker 1: attend discrimination training. This is due to the level disruption

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Speaker 1: his conduct was causing. Isn't that amazing how one person

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Speaker 1: can be so off putting and so bizarre that they

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Speaker 1: have to make an entire class take a training course

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Speaker 1: because of one person's bad behavior. Yeah, but I guess

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Speaker 1: they can't single I guess the point was they can't

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Speaker 1: single him out and be like you behaving and properly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's education for everyone, I guess.

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Speaker 1: Right. In another article. It claims that Brian Coberger was

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Speaker 1: a supporter of the death penalty in his PhD program,

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Speaker 1: which was in a People article addressing right the irony

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Speaker 1: the irony for other people, not for me. Accounts from

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Speaker 1: Washington State University also indicate that Brian Coburger frequently clashed

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Speaker 1: with his peers in the Criminology PhD program, particularly over

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Speaker 1: topics such such as punishment and justice. While most of

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Speaker 1: his classmates opposed capital punishment, he was described as a

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Speaker 1: very outspoken supporter of it. In one classroom exchange documented

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Speaker 1: by investigators, Coberger pressed his argument and support of the

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Speaker 1: death penalty by asking a fellow student imagine if her

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Speaker 1: twelve year old daughter was the victim of rape and murder.

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Speaker 1: He asked her, would you then support the death penalty

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Speaker 1: in a case like that? You know, again, it just

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Speaker 1: goes through the irony of the situation that we're talking

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Speaker 1: about someone that was clearly so scared of the death penalty.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that was a criminology major, right, I mean,

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Speaker 3: he's hanging around crime a lot, so.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would say, and this is just a

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Speaker 1: personal anecdote here in my younger years, when I was

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Speaker 1: less wise and less educated, I would say I was

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Speaker 1: a proponent of the death penalty because I think when

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Speaker 1: you're younger or not as educated about the system, I

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Speaker 1: clearly wasn't involved with the Innocent Center at that point

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Speaker 1: in time. You have a very naive approach to the

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Speaker 1: justice system, where you think bad people go to jail

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Speaker 1: and innocent people don't, and guilty.

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Speaker 2: If you're found guilty, you're guilty.

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Speaker 1: If you're found guilty, you're guilty. If you're in prison,

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Speaker 1: you should be there. And if you committed capital crimes,

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Speaker 1: then you should be punished for such. However, now, and

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Speaker 1: you and I have had this conversation, because I know

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Speaker 1: you're not a proponent of the death penalty.

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Speaker 3: I am not for the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: You're not well.

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Speaker 3: I am for the death penalty if it's done correctly.

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Speaker 3: What would be done, but.

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Speaker 2: Not killing innocent people?

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Speaker 3: Right? Yeah, So if it's truly someone guilty, yes, and

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Speaker 3: guilty of a horrific crime, not just you know, a misdemeanor. Right.

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Speaker 3: So if but the systems flawed enough where I don't

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Speaker 3: think it's a.

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Speaker 1: Good idea, well that's the problem is is the risk And.

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Speaker 3: You're going to say reward, it's not a reward, but

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 1: The detriment is outweighs the benefit of capital punishment, because

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Speaker 1: that's exactly just putting one innocent person to death or

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Speaker 1: crime they did not commit, makes you say which happens.

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Speaker 1: It happens a lot.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's irreversible exactly. But life, imprisonment or any

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Speaker 3: kind of prison sentence is reversible. You can fix that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, granted, there's gonna be trauma and time loss,

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Speaker 3: but you can fix that. But you can't fix someone

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Speaker 3: that's dead.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, all right. Victims families sue over crime scene photos.

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Speaker 1: This is an interesting, I guess, not only a legal debate,

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Speaker 1: but a moral debate. So the families of Madison Mogan

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Speaker 1: and Ethan Shapin, who we know we're two of the

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Speaker 1: victims and the Idaho murders, have filed a lawsuit against

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Speaker 1: the city of Moscow, Idaho, over the public release of

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Speaker 1: crime scene photographs. Their attorney told News Nation that the

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Speaker 1: families had begun to find a sense of closure after

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Speaker 1: Coburger's sentencing, but the publication of graphic images reopened painful wounds.

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Speaker 1: While acknowledging that some materials may inevitably become public because

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Speaker 1: of intense interests in the case. The attorney argued that

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Speaker 1: photos showing the victims or the immediate app aftermath of

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Speaker 1: the murders should remain private, calling such images an invasion

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Speaker 1: of privacy. He urged the court to restrict their release

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Speaker 1: and ask the public not to view them if they

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Speaker 1: appear online. He was also reminding people to consider how

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Speaker 1: devastating it would be for the victims' families. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what is your take on that. I did see

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Speaker 1: some of the images.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what are the rules with that.

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Speaker 3: Like, I'm sure it's the state thing, but like, is

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Speaker 3: it public? Are they public images? Like the record becomes public?

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Speaker 3: So did the images? Do they redact them? Like the images? Well,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what because I remember Kobe Bryant. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know some officers I think took images or pictures

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Speaker 3: or first responders of some sort.

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Speaker 1: Right right when it happened, and then released.

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Speaker 3: It, right. I don't know how it got released, but

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Speaker 3: it eventually got out there. Yeah, and then Vanessa Bryan

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Speaker 3: sued and she succeeded.

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Speaker 1: I think they released them. Wasn't it to TMZ And

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, but I just know that they crossed

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Speaker 3: the line with the images, and in court she succeeded.

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Speaker 3: She prevailed, so obviously there was some wrong doing. I

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Speaker 3: don't know what the rules are on that. I always

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Speaker 3: wonder that.

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Speaker 1: I guess it comes down to it. It's a moral

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Speaker 1: dilemma or is it a legal dilemma. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Is it I would want if it was a tragedy

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Speaker 3: and that involved my family, I would not want those

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Speaker 3: images out there, right, So I can totally understand those

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Speaker 3: images should should kind of be kept. I don't know

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Speaker 3: how you do it, though, because you release file. You

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Speaker 3: release a file, right, and then all it takes is

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Speaker 3: one person just to sneak a photo out there online

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Speaker 3: and it's over. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if there was a differentiation made between

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Speaker 1: the images in between the documents that were released, because

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Speaker 1: clearly after he took the plea deal, all a lot

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Speaker 1: of the documents and the investigation were released to the public,

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Speaker 1: and then those images were released as well. Somehow, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if they were released by It might.

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Speaker 2: Just be an unfortunate thing.

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Speaker 3: That's just the way you release the file because public

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Speaker 3: has the access to it, and it's just unfortunate for

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Speaker 3: the victim's families. You know, maybe that's just the way

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Speaker 3: it is. You can't please everyone, you know.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's move into the bulk of our conversation today,

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Speaker 1: which revolves around the Amanda Knox case. And I will

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Speaker 1: tell you this happened in two thousand and seven. I

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Speaker 1: remember it. It was like it kind of reminds me

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Speaker 1: of like Menendez, where no, I was very I was

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Speaker 1: like sixteen.

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Speaker 2: You were sixteen in two thousand.

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Speaker 1: So when Menendez happened, I was like sixteen, and I

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Speaker 1: remember being very intrigued by it and watching it on

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Speaker 1: the news. And so in two thousand and seven, with

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Speaker 1: the Amanda Knox story, I was very intrigued by it,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I watched the news about it. This

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Speaker 1: is before Instagram, so I guess I was actually watching

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Speaker 1: the news at this point.

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Speaker 3: And I and I knew the smary more reliable back

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Speaker 3: we actually in this case, it wasn't very reliable, right well, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, she had such a smear campaign against her. But

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Speaker 1: we'll get into that in a little bit. But do

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Speaker 1: you remember the case in two thousand and seven? Do

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Speaker 1: you remember it being.

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Speaker 2: In the media.

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Speaker 3: I remember, and I think you we talked about it

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Speaker 3: with like together. That's where I learned it from was

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Speaker 3: I did.

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Speaker 1: I was working with Shane and two aout.

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Speaker 3: She was in Italy. This is what my understanding was,

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Speaker 3: which I think is not correct. She was great in Italy.

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Speaker 3: She was an exchange student and there was some like

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Speaker 3: sex crazed party or game or something, and as part

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Speaker 3: of that, they killed her roommate and it was like

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Speaker 3: gruesome and their psychos and all that, And that's all

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Speaker 3: I heard.

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Speaker 1: Because Shane is an example of how the media can

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Speaker 1: take a story and present it in a way and

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Speaker 1: then that is all you take.

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Speaker 2: And I didn't look into it.

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Speaker 3: I didn't click, I didn't watch the videos and are

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Speaker 3: reporting on it. I just see those headlines and that's

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Speaker 3: what sticks in your head. Say it with the Menendez

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Speaker 3: it just stuck in my head that they're rich kids

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Speaker 3: that killed their parents and that's all you think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that was the takeaway, right exactly. All right, Well,

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Speaker 1: let's go into the Amanda Knox story and let's actually

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Speaker 1: break it down and let's get into the facts as

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Speaker 1: opposed to just the headlines. So in two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 1: a Manonox. She was a twenty year old student from Seattle,

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Speaker 1: Washington and she was studying abroad in Perusia, Italy, where

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Speaker 1: she lived with another roommate named Meredith Kircher. Now Meredith

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Speaker 1: Kircher was not from the United States. She was from England.

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Speaker 1: She was a twenty one year old British student.

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Speaker 3: Did they know each other prior or they were?

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Speaker 1: They just they were just on this study abroad program.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So they got it paired up right.

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Speaker 1: And Philhemina Romanelli was an Italian trainee lawyer who was

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Speaker 1: also living in the same place, as well as another

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Speaker 1: Italian student named Laura Mazzetti. So there's four girls living

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Speaker 1: in this cottage type of home in Perusia, Italy. Amanda

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Speaker 1: first arrives in Perusia and she talks about how she

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Speaker 1: just spent the first couple of weeks that she's there

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Speaker 1: exploring the city and sightseeing and all these types of things.

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Speaker 1: She also talks about this is a twenty sixteen documentary

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Speaker 1: that I watched called Amandaox. So a lot of the

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Speaker 1: information that I talk about, a lot of the knowledge

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Speaker 1: that I have comes from that documentary. I've watched it

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Speaker 1: multiple times. I also have watched it multiple times. But

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Speaker 1: then when I'm watching a documentary, I also google things

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Speaker 1: constantly because I like to see the accuracy of it

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Speaker 1: or yeah, well I just like to add more. I

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Speaker 1: like to figure out things. So anyway, if you're interested,

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Speaker 1: there's a twenty sixteenth documentary. It's just called Amanda Knox,

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Speaker 1: and I believe it's either it's on Netflix or Hulu,

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Speaker 1: but I've watched it multiple times. I think it does

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Speaker 1: a really good breakdown of this case and presenting it

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Speaker 1: from all sides.

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Speaker 3: And it's like it's a like a dramatization.

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Speaker 1: No, it's it's actual interviews. They interview Amanda, they interview

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Speaker 1: the boyfriend, they interview the prosecutor, they interview the you know,

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Speaker 1: the journalists from Daily Mail that was the one that

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Speaker 1: wrote all the salacious headlines. Like, they present it from

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Speaker 1: all angles, and I think they do a really good

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Speaker 1: job of it. So Amanda's in Perusia, She's exploring the city.

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Speaker 1: She also talks about how she thought this study abroad

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Speaker 1: program was going to be a scholarly program, but she

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Speaker 1: realized quickly that it was basically like a class and

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Speaker 1: that was it. There was much of a workload or

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Speaker 1: anything that went with it. It was it was more like,

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Speaker 1: come to hang out in Italy and take some light classes.

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Speaker 1: So then she realized she has all night right, so

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Speaker 1: she has all this free time. So she ends up

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Speaker 1: getting a job at a bar in Perugia called Le Chic,

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Speaker 1: which was owned by a man named Patrick La Mumba.

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Speaker 1: And his name is very important because he's going to

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Speaker 1: come up later. But so far we have key players.

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Speaker 1: We have Amanda Knox, we have Meredith Kercher, who's the roommate.

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Speaker 1: We have Patrick La Mumba, who owns the bar where

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Speaker 1: she worked, where she worked. And then one night, after

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Speaker 1: she's been in Perusia for a little while, she goes

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Speaker 1: to a classical music concert. I think it was for

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Speaker 1: university students, and she meets her boyfriend who's named Rafaela

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Speaker 1: and I believe his last name is Soli Chito. He's Italian,

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Speaker 1: but we'll just call him Rafaeli because I don't want

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Speaker 1: to try to use my Italian accent. It's not very

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Speaker 1: good because you don't have one, because I don't have one. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: the two of them meet on October twenty fifth of

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Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. They meet at a concert. They

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Speaker 1: end up going out that night I believe after the concert.

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Speaker 1: I think she goes home with him that night and

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Speaker 1: they have dinner and sex, and they'd begin again slow.

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Speaker 1: She takes it slow. She's really into taking things slow.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, this is I think it's really important to

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Speaker 1: note that this is October twenty fifth because everyone refers

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Speaker 1: to them as like this boyfriend and girlfriend couple that

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Speaker 1: you know allegedly or perhaps committed this murder. But they

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Speaker 1: only knew each other like five days before it.

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Speaker 3: Five days a week, yes, so it takes much longer

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Speaker 3: to create like a sex crazed murderactly five.

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Speaker 1: Days, right, So anyway, they they meet, they instantly fall

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Speaker 1: in love, become boyfriend and girlfriend, and they're inseparable. So

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Speaker 1: let's move on into the actual Meredith Kercher murder. So

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Speaker 1: this is October twenty fifth when they meet at this

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Speaker 1: concert on the evening of Thursday, November one, two thousand

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Speaker 1: and seven. Amanda in Rafaelle were at Rafaelle's apartment that

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Speaker 1: evening and they decided to download Amanda's all time favorite movie,

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Speaker 1: which is the movie Ama Lee. I think that's how

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Speaker 1: you say it. It's a French movie. I actually like it.

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Speaker 1: I've seen it multiple times, it's very good. So at

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Speaker 1: around eight thirty pm, they're watching this movie. And then

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Speaker 1: around eight thirty pm, Amanda checks her phone and she

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Speaker 1: finds a text from Patrick Lamumba. Remember we talked about boss,

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Speaker 1: That is the boss that owns the bar. He texts

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Speaker 1: her telling her that he expected the night to be

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Speaker 1: very slow and that she didn't need to come into

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Speaker 1: the bar. Amanda texts back at eight thirty eight pm,

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Speaker 1: and she says she says it in Italian, but it

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Speaker 1: translates into see you later. Have a good evening. Now,

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Speaker 1: it's really important to remember that. She says, see you later.

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Speaker 1: Then she turns off her phone. I guess this is

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven. So do people turn do

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Speaker 1: you turn phones off and on? In two thousand and seven?

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Speaker 2: Do you remember I was a flip phone?

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Speaker 1: When did the I phone come out?

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Speaker 3: Two thousand and seven? It was a slow start and

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Speaker 3: not everyone ran out and grabbed him.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this is November of two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's pretty much pre smartphones. Okay, you know,

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Speaker 3: for the sake of for purposes of this conversation, it's

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Speaker 3: pretty smartphone, right.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So she turned off her phone. And she turned

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Speaker 1: off her phone just in case.

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Speaker 3: I guess people did turn off phones at night time. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, that's turn off my phone.

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Speaker 1: Did you turn off your so yeah? Yeah, we didn't

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Speaker 1: leave them on like you do like an iPhone. Right.

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Speaker 2: No, I mean maybe if you plugged it in left

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Speaker 2: all night.

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Speaker 3: But I think you did kind of naturally, just like

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Speaker 3: like you turn off your computer or something, right, you

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Speaker 3: turn off.

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Speaker 1: I guess because pre iPhones, we weren't completely we weren't addicted,

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Speaker 1: we weren't addicted to our phones. They really were just

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Speaker 1: for the purpose of communicating of a phone call, right,

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Speaker 1: So I guess that's white people.

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Speaker 3: And now it's like, you know, you have to have

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Speaker 3: it twenty four to seven, right.

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Speaker 1: So she turns off her phone because she says she

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Speaker 1: doesn't want him to text back and change his mind

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Speaker 1: about working, So she turns off her phone.

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Speaker 3: That's like covering your eyes and if you don't see

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Speaker 3: the other person, they don't exists, come in. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: change any Well, I don't.

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Speaker 1: Know, because if the phone's turned off, does the text

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Speaker 1: not go through? I don't remember flip phones.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: There was a lot more work to text too, with

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Speaker 3: only nine digits.

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Speaker 1: You know what I was thinking, though, I feel like

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Speaker 1: sometimes I would like to trade in my iPhone just

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Speaker 1: for a flip phone.

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Speaker 3: I'd love to trade in your eye.

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Speaker 1: I know you would, because I feel like we just

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Speaker 1: need to go back to simpler times.

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Speaker 3: All right.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, Anyway, so Rafaelli turns off his phone as well

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Speaker 1: so that they wouldn't be interrupted when the movie ended.

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Speaker 1: They ate fish for dinner, they dealt with a leaky

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Speaker 1: kitchen sink, and they smoked a joint. That's that's the

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Speaker 1: thing they did. There was a lot of smoking marijuana

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Speaker 1: and a lot of sex over these six days that

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Speaker 1: they're together. And then they apparently allegedly so they claim,

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Speaker 1: go to sleep. Now, this is the evening of Thursday, November.

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Speaker 2: First, and I'm sorry, who's home Dan, his or hers?

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Speaker 1: No, they're at his house, his apartment, which clearly is

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Speaker 1: nearby where she was staying with these other girls. I

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Speaker 1: think this is a very small town kind of and

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Speaker 1: so they're at his apartment, just the two of them alone.

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Speaker 1: They're watching a movie, they have dinner, they have sex,

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Speaker 1: they smoke pot, and then allegedly from what the investigation

396
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Speaker 1: has turned up, that the estimated window of the time

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Speaker 1: period in which Meredith Kircher was murdered that evening was

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Speaker 1: sometime between nine thirty PM and eleven thirty PM. So

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Speaker 1: that evening Meredith is murdered in they're in her and

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Speaker 1: Amanda and Philomena and the other girl, the four girls

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Speaker 1: that live together in their cottage. So the Meredith is

402
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Speaker 1: murdered that evening in Meredith's apartment that she shares with Amanda,

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Speaker 1: Amanda is in Raphael's apartment. So Amanda getting it on.

404
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Speaker 1: So Amanda wakes up the next day, so now we're

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Speaker 1: at Friday, November two, and claims that around ten am

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Speaker 1: she goes back alone to the cottage that she shares

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Speaker 1: with the other girls. She found the front door wide open. Now,

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Speaker 1: let me ask you a question. If you go home,

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Speaker 1: back to your own space, your apartment, your house, whatever,

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Speaker 1: and the door is wide open, do you find that

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Speaker 1: weird or do you just go in?

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Speaker 3: Well, I would be a little suspicious, okay, So I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't necessarily be scared, but I'd be a little cautious

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Speaker 3: and wonder why. And I guess I would also just think, okay,

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Speaker 3: one of my roommates left it open. Idia, that's true.

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Speaker 1: So she goes home in the morning and the front

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Speaker 1: door is wide open, and I guess you could just say, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: three other people, so maybe somebody left it open. That

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Speaker 1: alone is not startling, right. So then she goes to

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Speaker 1: take a shower. So while she's in the bathroom taking

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Speaker 1: a shower, before she gets in the shower, she looks

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Speaker 1: in the sink. She looks at the counter, I guess,

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Speaker 1: and there's some blood drops. But again, she's not really

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Speaker 1: alarmed by it. Okay, And I don't know. I put

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Speaker 1: myself in her position in a house, in a cottage.

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Speaker 1: I see some blood drops. Again, she's living with other women.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe you cut your fingernail. Maybe it

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Speaker 1: has some to you know.

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Speaker 3: Well, if you come home right now and the door's open,

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Speaker 3: the door's wide open.

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Speaker 2: Forget the dog situation, the doors.

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Speaker 3: A runaway dog, and you come home and doors open,

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Speaker 3: your first thought would be someone left the door open,

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Speaker 3: like someone that we live with.

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Speaker 1: Well, we live in a gated community, so my first

436
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Speaker 1: thought would be one of these kids left a door open.

437
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 3: Well, okay, but if we didn't, you'd probably still think

438
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 3: the same thing. Yeah, and then you go upstairs to

439
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 3: take a shower or a bath, and then you see

440
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 3: some drops of blood.

441
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 1: What would you think then, nothing, I would think, there

442
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 1: you go. I would think someone in this house cut

443
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,880
Speaker 1: their finger out the door and ran out the door

444
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 1: and left the door open.

445
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,680
Speaker 2: All right, So so far not really reason to be.

446
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 1: Alarmed, right, So then I think she also sees that

447
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of blood on a shower mat.

448
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: It looks like a footprint or something. I guess. Still,

449
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 1: she's not really concerned at this point. Yeah, but it's

450
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:53,679
Speaker 1: not like a full one and it's just like a

451
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 1: little bit of blood. I guess again, I think, and

452
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 1: these women and you have to these roommates share bathrooms. Yeah,

453
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 1: it's not like each person has their own individual bathroom.

454
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: So again, I guess you could write it off as

455
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 1: like someone got out small kinds.

456
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:08,919
Speaker 3: You said earlier. She's just as signed to these roommates,

457
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:10,439
Speaker 3: so she doesn't really know them. It's not like she

458
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 3: knows their behavior and thinks, wait, why is someone bleeding

459
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 3: and left the door open?

460
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 1: Right, these are four strangers that have all come together, right.

461
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 3: So then she takes a shower.

462
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 1: So then she takes a shower, she gets out of

463
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 1: the shower, and then she's drying her hair with the

464
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:22,919
Speaker 1: blow dryer. And when she's drying her hair with the

465
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 1: blow dryer, she looks over and she notices that there's

466
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 1: feces in the toilet.

467
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 3: Okay, so now someone didn't flush the toilet.

468
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: So someone didn't flush the toilet. That is what alarms

469
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: her that there's something wrong.

470
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 3: That would upset you.

471
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would be so gross out by that. But

472
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I have boys, so I feel like that's

473
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 1: normal because they don't always flush the.

474
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,919
Speaker 2: Toilet or get it in the toilet or get it.

475
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 1: That's true too. But the fact that she's these are

476
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 1: all young women that live in an apartment, that's not

477
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 1: normal behavior. So when she sees that, she becomes immediately

478
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 1: alarmed and thinks, okay, now something is off. No, here's okay.

479
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 1: So when I told you that when I watched documentaries

480
00:22:58,440 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 1: that I like to google.

481
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 2: Things, google feces.

482
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 1: I googled can you find DNA and feces?

483
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:05,719
Speaker 3: I imagine you can imagine you can find a lot

484
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 3: of things.

485
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you can find a lot of things, but

486
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: you you can find DNA because well not only just blood,

487
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: but it said that you can actually get a large

488
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: sample of DNA because of the the lining of the

489
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 1: stomach and testines.

490
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 3: Well, if you can get it from your mouth, why

491
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 3: couldn't you get it from your butt.

492
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 1: Well, I'm just saying I didn't know if you could.

493
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: You could test feces for DNA, I don't know, because

494
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: it's waste. I don't know.

495
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 3: I don't know.

496
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: But apparently you can because you can get cells skin

497
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: cells from the inside of your intestines on the feces

498
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,360
Speaker 1: and then you know, as it comes.

499
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 3: Out it probably I have a vision, yes, okay.

500
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 1: I just wanted you to see what I was, what

501
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: I was working with.

502
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 3: Anyway, all the forensic scientists are like, no, you tested,

503
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 3: you test it.

504
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: I'm not testing it all right, I don't know about

505
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: that part. But so she's concerned now because there's FECs

506
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: in the toilet, So she leaves. She goes back to

507
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: Raphael's apartment and she tells him there's something weird going on.

508
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 2: Okay, so now she's alarmed.

509
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: Now she's alarmed. So the two of them go back

510
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: together to the cottage. And when they go back together,

511
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 1: they go in, the door is still open. There's still

512
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: the blood spatter, there's the feces in the toilet. But

513
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 1: this time Rafael notices that there is a broken window

514
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: that it looks that looks like a rocksman thrown through it.

515
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,959
Speaker 1: I think there's a rock there. And Meredith's door is

516
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: closed but it's locked and they can't get into her room.

517
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 1: And they said that was odd, like she normally doesn't

518
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 1: do that. So at some point they call the postal police.

519
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: And I know you think this is funny, but apparently,

520
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: apparently in Italy there are two types of police. There's

521
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 1: the postal police and the elite police. The postal police

522
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: deal I don't know why, the postal police, but apparently

523
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 1: they deal with tech crimes and then the elite police

524
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 1: deal with like actual crime. So the postal police police

525
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: the elite police. So the police, the postal police come

526
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: and they come to the cottage and at some point

527
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: I don't know where, I don't know the exact details.

528
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: But also the postal police were aware that Meredith had

529
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: two cell phones and those were found earlier by like

530
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: an older woman in her garden.

531
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 2: And those are tied to Meredith.

532
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: They're tied to Meredith two phones, two.

533
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 3: Two cell phones, two cell phones in seven in seven Okay,

534
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 3: well not everyone even had a phone, Okay.

535
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't know why there were two, but

536
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: there were two. So then once they arrive at this cottage,

537
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 1: the postal police are the ones that bust down the

538
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: door because it's locked. And then that is when they

539
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: find Meredith's dead body on the floor. She's laying on

540
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: the floor, she's covered by her duvet and there it's

541
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: a bloody scene. There's blood on the walls, there's blood

542
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 1: on the floor, there's fingerprints, there's just it's a crime scene.

543
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 3: So now with her whole body covered. I remember were

544
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 3: watching this. I thought I heard something that the body

545
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 3: was covered, and some investigator was saying that females tend

546
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 3: to cover their victims. Yeah, that was which I didn't

547
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 3: like it because he made it like that's one hundred

548
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 3: percent the way it works. Yeah, I know, all female

549
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 3: murderers cover their victims and male murders don't.

550
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, well, this this Italian prosecutor,

551
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 1: he had a lot of wild theories that he just believed,

552
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: and then I feel like he came up with the

553
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: theory and then tried to find evidence to back his theory.

554
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: Instead of looking at the evidence and coming up with

555
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: the theory. It's like he made the evidence fit yeah.

556
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 3: Perpetrator or whatever.

557
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: Right, But you're right, he did say that he was

558
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: very fixated on the fact that he said most.

559
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 3: Because I didn't watch the documentary, but you were watching it,

560
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 3: and he was.

561
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 2: He was adamant.

562
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, he made it like like that, that's that, therefore

563
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 3: it's a female murder.

564
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 1: Right, So she was covered by a duvet, you could

565
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: see her feet weren't covered. But he was very adamant

566
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: that it had to have been a female murderer because

567
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: he was claiming that statistically. I don't even know if

568
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: this is true. If he just made this up. I

569
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: don't even think that statistic is true. But basically, I

570
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: never heard anything that female murders cover the body or

571
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: something like that.

572
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 3: But I've never heard anything where female murders tend to

573
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 3: do this and male murders. I've never even heard a

574
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 3: difference like that.

575
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that's that's something I

576
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: didn't google, but I google a lot. So if anybody

577
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: has any insight into that, please damn me. So, Meredith's

578
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: body was found lying on the floor partially covered with

579
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: a blood soaked duvet. She had suffered two knife wounds

580
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: to her neck and she was partially undressed. Blood was

581
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: visible on the floor, walls, and around her neck and head.

582
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: The room showed evidence of a very violent struggle. There

583
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: was overturned furniture, things were in disarray, and her belongings

584
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: were scattered about. Her cell phones and a few personal

585
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: items had been taken. And again we talked about how

586
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 1: the police ended up coming finding her two cell phones

587
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 1: that were and because of an elderly lady I believe

588
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 1: found them in her garden or something. So obviously someone

589
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: was in the house, took some of her personal things

590
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: and then discarded them later outside of the cottage. So

591
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: the homicide division shows up. Once the body's discovered, forensic

592
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: officers took over and everyone was moved out of the

593
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: house in order to preserve evidence. Officers began photographing and

594
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: sealing off the rooms. This is when Raphael and Amanda

595
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: are now not inside the cottage, but they are over

596
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: standing outside the cottage, And this is where I assume.

597
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: At this point, there's now a word that there's a

598
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: homicide in this little small Italian town, and the media

599
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: has arrived and they're video taping or recording the police

600
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: going in and out of the house, because you can

601
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: there's I've seen that footage. And they're also taking video

602
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: of Amanda and Rafael standing off to the side, and

603
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: this is where they're hugging and kissing. This ends Ida

604
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: see that part problem and it wasn't her.

605
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, keep going. I did see that part, so

606
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 3: I have an opinion on it. Go ahead.

607
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: Well, I'm just saying this is what they captured on

608
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: on in a recording of them consoling each other or

609
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: hugging or kissing or making out or whatever you want

610
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: to call. It was problematic for her because that was

611
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: initially people just from the offset were saying that it

612
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: was she that she well, it was inappropriate. Even if

613
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: if it wasn't like she wasn't, you know, be carrying

614
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: or or she wasn't emotional. She didn't know this person, no,

615
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: you know, and that was another thing.

616
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 3: She might have been scared or freaked out, but not

617
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 3: like sad.

618
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, as far as what I can tell or what

619
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: I've read and what I've watched, she and Meredith did

620
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: not know each other before they went there. They didn't

621
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: they knew each other briefly, and the time that they

622
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: lived there, I think they hung out a couple of times.

623
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: I don't think they had an amazing friendship by any

624
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: stretch of the imagine, nor were they really contentious with

625
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: each other either. I think it was probably more cohabitating. Yeah,

626
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: and so anyway, what they capture is her and RAPHAELI

627
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: off to the side. And then this is when I

628
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: think this whole media storm against Amanda because they a

629
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: lot of people thought that the way she was acting

630
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: was inappropriate in that particular scenario of what's going on.

631
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: So the locked bedroom door and the way the window

632
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: had been broken, this is when the detectives first enter

633
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: the room and they're they're they're collecting evidence. They noticed

634
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: that the window had been broken and raised immediate suspicions.

635
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: I still don't really understand this.

636
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 3: I understand that the dead body didn't raise immediate suspicions.

637
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: Well, the window raised suspicions because they thought it looked

638
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: like it was staged. They didn't think that it was

639
00:30:54,200 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: a legitimate burglary of someone outside of the house.

640
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: The alarmed them as that suspicious behavior. It's not literally

641
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 3: a broken window that someone broke into to kill her, like,

642
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 3: there's something different about it, right.

643
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: They felt as if the broken window because the glass

644
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: was laying on top, so the room was in disarray

645
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: some you know, there had been a struggle and there's

646
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: stuff everywhere, and then the glasses on top of that,

647
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: so that would indicate that the window was broken after

648
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: the struggle. So their initial thought process was, it looks stage.

649
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: It doesn't look like it was an actual burglary. It

650
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: looks like someone killing.

651
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 3: They'll find the glass on the inside versus the outside,

652
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 3: And they determined a lot that.

653
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: Way, right, And that's it's very smart if you're an

654
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: investigator to look at things like that. The rest of

655
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: the house showed little disturbance, valuables weren't taken, and so

656
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: the scene didn't resemble a typical burglary. So that's what

657
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: we were talking about. So I think immediately this prosecutor

658
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: had in his mind that it was staged. Amanda's making

659
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: out with her boyfriend outside of the house. So I

660
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: think the theory that they he comes up with immediately

661
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: is this is off, she's acting weird. She has to

662
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: be involved in some way. So November two, this is

663
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: the day the body's found at the scene. Knox gave

664
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: a basic witness statement recounting her experience from that day.

665
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: Then we move on to November third through the fourth,

666
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: so this is when they're investigating. Knox was brought in

667
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: multiple times for routine questioning as a witness. It's important

668
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: to note that Amanda was not fluent in Italian. So

669
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: let's remember that she is there in Perugia, studying abroad

670
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: and learning Italian, but she does not speak Italian fluently.

671
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: So she's being brought in and she's being questioned, and

672
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: so far she's only being I don't know what you

673
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: want to call it, labeled as a witness, not a

674
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: person of interest at this part. At this point, she

675
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: admits to smoking marijuana the night of the murder, which

676
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: she had originally lied about. So this is another problem

677
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: with Amanda is inconsistent statements m H So November fifth

678
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: to six, this is when they give her an overnight interrogation.

679
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: So on the night of November fifth, Amanda Knox went

680
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: voluntarily to the police station. I don't know if this

681
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: is the night where she was doing the cartwheels, but

682
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: this is another problem that rubbed people the wrong way.

683
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: Was that when she was at the police station and

684
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: she was being interrogated or investigated or questioned, there was

685
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: a point in time where I think she was doing

686
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: yoga poses. I think there was another point in time

687
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: where she was doing cartwheels. It's just one more thing

688
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: to add to her behavior is off. She's not acting

689
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: like someone who just had a roommate that was murdered.

690
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 3: Well, again, I've said this before, how does someone act I.

691
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: Don't know, you know, I don't know. You know. That's

692
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,959
Speaker 1: a good question too, because the whole time I was,

693
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: you know, going through this documentary and I was reading,

694
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: and I was going through all these things about her,

695
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: and a big, huge part of why I think this

696
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: Italian prosecutor was so hell bent on making her a

697
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: guilty party was because he did not like the way

698
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: that she acted. And it reminded me of when we

699
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: talked to about the Idaho murders and how they didn't

700
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: call the police until the next day at noon, even

701
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: though one of the surviving roommates saw an intruder with

702
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 1: a mask on in the house.

703
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 3: And I think I said the same thing, which is like, well,

704
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 3: how do you know how someone acts when they're frightened

705
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 3: and scared or confused or half awake and tired, and

706
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 3: then someone walks in and it's a apartment where it's

707
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 3: you know, lots of roommates and lots of activity. No

708
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 3: one knows.

709
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it's a very good question. I

710
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: think it's very easy for someone to say, oh, my gosh,

711
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: your roommate's just been murdered and you found the body.

712
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: You should behave like this, or the roommates in the

713
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: Idaho case, where it's like you have roommates that are

714
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: dead in your house and you heard noises and there

715
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: were suspicious things going on, and you saw an intruder,

716
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 1: but you didn't even call police until noon the next day.

717
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: But it's very easy from an outside perspective to look

718
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: in and say, this is what you should have done.

719
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: Why didn't you do that? You're not behaving like you should.

720
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: But you're right, no one knows what you would behave like.

721
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: You don't know what you would actually do if you

722
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: were put in that situation. No, I don't we get

723
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: to this overnight interrogation. So on the night of November fifth,

724
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: a man and Knox went voluntarily to the police station.

725
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: She started being questioned starting around ten thirty pm and

726
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 1: continued past one am all the way into November sixth

727
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: Knox was not This is important to remember too. Not

728
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: only does she not speak Italian, she was not given

729
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: a lawyer. She's also young, she's in a foreign country,

730
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: she doesn't have parents there, she doesn't have an advocate,

731
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: she has no.

732
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: One male interrogators.

733
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: And you're right, it's probably a bunch.

734
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 3: Of intimidating because no one's being sensitive to her in

735
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 3: any way.

736
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: So they ended up confiscating her phone and saw that

737
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 1: she had texted her boss the night of the murders.

738
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: And we talked about this earlier when she was at

739
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: when she was at Rafael's apartment and her boss, Patrick

740
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: Lumumba texted her and she replied, see you later. So

741
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 1: they find that text on her phone. And apparently even

742
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: in English, when we say see you later, when we

743
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 1: say see you later, it's a very vague meaning.

744
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 3: Right, it doesn't mean well later. There is no exact

745
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 3: time for later, right. It could be next week.

746
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: It could be never. Yeah, I mean I've said see

747
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: you later. Lots of times of people hoping that I

748
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 1: never see.

749
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 2: See them later. They may also want to see you

750
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 2: later exactly.

751
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: So when the Italian police find this text on her

752
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: phone that says see you later, they start interrogating her,

753
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,439
Speaker 1: saying taking it literally, because I guess an Italian, there

754
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: is no vague interpretation. It has a very strict literal,

755
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: meaning that she is going there so that there are

756
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,959
Speaker 1: solid plans to see him later. So they start interrogating

757
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 1: her about Patrick and when she's going to see him,

758
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: and what time and all these things that they're supposedly

759
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: going to meet. Because they took this text very literally,

760
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: they accuse her of being a liar, saying she must

761
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,479
Speaker 1: have met up with Patrick at some point she said

762
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: such a thing in a text. She later claims she

763
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: was subjected to hours and hours of pressure, repeated questions,

764
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: and intimidation, including being slapped in the head, until she

765
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: finally broke down. So what happens during this interrogation is

766
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: she actually names Patrick as the murderer, her boss, her boss,

767
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: and she gives this account of being there, of hearing

768
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: Meredith's scream, of Patrick being involved, of seeing Patrick in

769
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: the house, and she signs a confession. She actually signs

770
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 1: two confessions, but the two confessions that she signs were

771
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: written by the Italian investigators.

772
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 3: Has the phony like he pretends he knows how male

773
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 3: and females operate.

774
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: Yes, So they type out a statement and she signs

775
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: it at one forty five in the morning. Then there

776
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: is another statement that she signs at five forty five

777
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: in the morning, confessing to her and that she was there,

778
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: that the guy named Patrick la Mumba was involved.

779
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 2: Like more supposed facts.

780
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know if you want to more.

781
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: Confession, but no, I know, I know, may or may

782
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 3: not be, but more confession.

783
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, just saying that like she heard screams and she

784
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: had to cover her ears.

785
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: And she saw five in the morning.

786
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 3: I can't even buy the if I if you woke

787
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:24,359
Speaker 3: me up at five in the morning and said buy

788
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 3: this on Amazon, I probably buy the wrong thing.

789
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.

790
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 3: So that's shady right there.

791
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 1: Right, So, as we talked about the two confessions, she

792
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 1: signs at one and then another one at five forty five.

793
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 1: Then later that day Knox gave another handwritten note saying

794
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 1: that she was confused and that her previous statements were

795
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: the result of pressure and exhaustion. So then later that day,

796
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: after she signs these two confessions, basically implicating Patrick la

797
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 1: Mumba and saying that she was part of you know,

798
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: that she was there and that she heard the screaming

799
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: and things like that. She then goes back and cants

800
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: and writes this long handwritten note saying that she was

801
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: confused and that her previous statements were false because they

802
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: were the result of pressure and exhaustion, also the result

803
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: of probably not understanding what's going on, not understanding Italian,

804
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: and not having a representative and not having an attorney.

805
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: And note that's allful.

806
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 3: How can you have any kind of interrogation when there's

807
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 3: a huge language barrier.

808
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: So let me just read a little bit of her

809
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: handwritten confession because I found it. In regards to this

810
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: confession that I made last night, I want to make

811
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: clear that I'm very doubtful of the verity of my

812
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: statements because they were made under the pressure of stress, shock,

813
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: and extreme exhaustion. Not only was I told I would

814
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: be arrested and put in jail for thirty years, but

815
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 1: I was also hit in the head when I didn't

816
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 1: remember facts correctly. I understand that the police are under

817
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 1: a lot of stress, so I understand the treatment I

818
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: received here. She's trying to be nice. She's like, understand,

819
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: I understand why they hit me in my head, because

820
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 1: they're under stress too. However, it was under this pressure

821
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: and after many hours of confusion, that my mind came

822
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: up with these ant In my mind, I saw Patrick

823
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 1: and flashes of blurred images. I saw him near the

824
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: basketball court. I saw him at my front door. I

825
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over

826
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 1: my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming.

827
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 1: But I've said this many times so as to make

828
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: myself clear. These things seem unreal to me, like a dream,

829
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: and I am unsure if they are real things that

830
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: happened or just dreams. My head has made up to

831
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: try to answer the questions in my head and the

832
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: questions that I am being asked. But the truth is,

833
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: I am unsure about the truth. And here's why. And

834
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: then she goes into more. But I just wanted to

835
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: read that part because I think it's clear that she's

836
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:42,720
Speaker 1: so distorted and stressed and overwhelmed that she doesn't even

837
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,479
Speaker 1: understand at this point, like they're interrogating her all night long.

838
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: She's do you know when you don't have sleep.

839
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,919
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, terrific. You shouldn't be able to sign

840
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 3: confessions like pass a certain hour.

841
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: I agree. You know. I can tell you one time

842
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: I've been the most tired in my life, and it's

843
00:40:57,960 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: when I was traveling in Europe and we took like

844
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: an all night train from somewhere to Rome, and I

845
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 1: hadn't slept in probably forty eight hours, and I'm telling you,

846
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: I was delirious. I wouldn't remember any conversation I had.

847
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: You probably could have robbed me and I probably could

848
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: have been sex trafficked, and I couldn't function. And when

849
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 1: people are in that kind of state where you don't

850
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: have sleep, you go into a dread lake stage.

851
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 3: Yeah you can. You can start to see images, right

852
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 3: you hallucinate.

853
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 2: Hallucinate, that's the word exactly.

854
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: So after this confession, Amanda was formally arrested, along with

855
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,720
Speaker 1: Raphael and along with Patrick La Mumba, who she names

856
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: in her two original confessions. Amanda didn't know she was

857
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 1: charged with murder until after her arraignment three days after

858
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: entering prison, so when she's arrested, she doesn't even understand

859
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 1: that she's being arrested. She doesn't understand what's going on.

860
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 3: No, she might just think she's going to go and

861
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 3: identify or fill out some forms.

862
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 2: By the way, I found the answer.

863
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 3: Those two confessions that she signed in the middle of

864
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 3: the night were written in Italian. They were supposedly explained

865
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 3: to her in English, but they were typed up in Italian,

866
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 3: which is like ridiculous.

867
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then she signs it and she doesn't speak Italian, No,

868
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 1: but she signs off on.

869
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 3: She signs it in English.

870
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: They were charged with murder, sexual assault in staging a

871
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: break into Mislead investigators. Patrick was incarcerated for two weeks

872
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: before the police confirmed that he had as airtight alibi

873
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: and then he was released. So they arrest Amanda and

874
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: Raphaela and Patrick. And the prosecutor in this case is

875
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: hell bent on this being a If you remember the headlines,

876
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: they were so salacious. It had to do with this

877
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: being like this sex.

878
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 3: Drug was she found to have?

879
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: Well she was found I think well she was. I

880
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: think all she had, almost like a T shirt in

881
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 1: or underwear, was sexually assaulted and murdered. So this prosecutor

882
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: is just bit on making this story into this orgy

883
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: sex game. Situation that Amanda and her boyfriend were involved in,

884
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: and now that she named Patrick, it's this game of

885
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: the three of them and they all did this to

886
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: Meredith and they're all arrested. Then Patrick ends up having

887
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 1: this airtight alibi, so he's let go. So now he's

888
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: got a he's still there, so he's in the clear.

889
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: But they have what they considered to be evidence against Amanda,

890
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: DNA evidence. And so what happened was on November sixth,

891
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: they the investigators, they search Rafael's apartment because they're looking

892
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: for the murder weapon. So they go through his kitchen

893
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: and they look at all these different knives and then

894
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 1: they find a knife that they think looks like a

895
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: knife that could have been the murder.

896
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 2: Weapon, which is knife.

897
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: So they're just like, oh, that knife looks like it

898
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: could be the knife that killed her. So they take

899
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 1: that knife. But then you know what they do with

900
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: that knife. They take that knife and they put it

901
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: in a bag with all the other evidence.

902
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 2: They mix it with the blood, they mix it.

903
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: With the other evidence that was collected in this murder.

904
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 1: So all the evidence collected is all together in a bag.

905
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: Shar sharing DNA. Also, if you watch when you can

906
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: see the footage of the forensic team going in and

907
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: out of her of the cottage. No one has the

908
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 1: booties on, none of the investigators have has matt suits on.

909
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,439
Speaker 1: You know, they're not separating the evidence behavior after a murder, right,

910
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of problems they did with this investigation.

911
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: So they go through Raphael's apartment on November sixth, they

912
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 1: find this knife, they test this knife, and what they

913
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 1: say is they found Amanda Knox's DNA on the handle

914
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 1: of the knife, which, okay, that would make sense because

915
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 1: she said that they cooked a lot in his apartment.

916
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 1: But they also claim that they found a very very

917
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: very extremely small trace of MEREDITHS DNA on the blade

918
00:44:58,560 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: of the knife.

919
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, but you just said it was all mixed, right,

920
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 3: because it went from like the kitchen that went and

921
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 3: got mixed up with other DNA, right, that's ridiculous. This

922
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 3: Italian work is not very good. Well, the elite police

923
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 3: police need some training.

924
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: Maybe they should have the postal police to it.

925
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe the post police are better.

926
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: So prosecutors claimed that a mixture of Amanda's DNA and

927
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: MEREDITHS DNA were found in the bathroom sink and on

928
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: a bidet. However, the DNA sample on the knife was

929
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: very low quality and possibly mixed with other people's DNA,

930
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: and contamination was likely because multiple people had access to

931
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: the bathroom. So then on November twentieth of two thousand

932
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: and seven, someone else is finally arrested. Now, his name

933
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: is Rudy. I think his last name it's Geddy. Maybe

934
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: he was arrested in Germany. His DNA is found all

935
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 1: over Merediths room, everywhere, on her on the walls, every everywhere.

936
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: So and he also was a known burglar.

937
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 3: How did they find this guy?

938
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,760
Speaker 1: Because they did the DNA testing and he's in the system,

939
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: and he's in the system, I assume, and so they

940
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: found him. His name's Rudy. It's g U E d E,

941
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,439
Speaker 1: but I think it's Gwetty or Getty something like that.

942
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: But anyway, his DNA is all over the room. He's

943
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: also a known criminal, like he's a burglar. He's burglarized, okay,

944
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: And apparently he also has been arrested previously for some

945
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: type of sexual assault, so they arrest him. He also

946
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: confessed on a Skype interview because after they found his

947
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: DNA all over her room. They had a friend of his,

948
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: They wired a friend of his, had the friend skype

949
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: him to Skype. Is pre zoom skype Skype. We're talking

950
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: about flip phones and skyping people. They have him skype

951
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 1: him because he fled the Knight of Meritiths murder. He

952
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: flees Italy and he goes to Germany. So this friend

953
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: skypes him. He confesses to the friend that he was there,

954
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: that he murdered Meredith, and that Amanda was not present,

955
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: and the police have this entire conversation because they're listening

956
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 1: to the entire thing. So they extradite him back to Italy.

957
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: They arrest him for murder, but they also keep the

958
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: murder charges against Amanda and Raphaeli because they are still

959
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: stuck on this whole orgy sex game.

960
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: Like it sounds like it's a.

961
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 3: You know, the world is watching because it's it's international, right,

962
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 3: because you have Italy in the United States, right, And

963
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 3: so maybe they didn't want to back down and make

964
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 3: it like oops, sorry, America, it's not her, it was

965
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 3: one of ours, and so they're just stuck on it.

966
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 3: Being a man in ox.

967
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: Well, I think the prosecutor was so stuck on it

968
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: being a mand in ox. And the other problem is

969
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,439
Speaker 1: is that the prosecution went to Meredith Kircher's family and

970
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: said it is absolutely Amanda Knox. And when they told

971
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 1: her family that they cannot they can't psychologically break from that. Yeah,

972
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? Yea, even though the

973
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 1: evidence is clear in another direction.

974
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 3: Probably needed someone to point the finger at, right, because

975
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 3: they were just so confused. So when that was given

976
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 3: to him, then they're probably they're running with it, right,

977
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 3: because then it makes him feel like they have us,

978
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 3: you know, they've solved the crime. Right.

979
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: So although Rudy was arrested and had previously said that

980
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: Amanda had nothing to do with this this crime, she

981
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,720
Speaker 1: wasn't there, he now helped authorities by making a statement

982
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,760
Speaker 1: placing Amanda and Rafaeli at the murder scene. He claimed

983
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,240
Speaker 1: it was a fight over money between Amanda and Meredith.

984
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: So basically, when Rudy isn't talking to police and he's

985
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 1: talking to his friend over Skype, he says Amanda wasn't there,

986
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: she had nothing to do with it. I did it

987
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 1: because he doesn't know the police are listening. So he's honest, right,

988
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 1: and he's just talking to his buddy. But then after

989
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 1: he's arrested, he then he starts implicating her, because clearly

990
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 1: that's what after your arrests said. You're like, oh wait,

991
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: it wasn't me, It's not my DNA everywhere, it is her.

992
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 3: She was there Skype?

993
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:07,280
Speaker 2: What Skype?

994
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 1: What Skype?

995
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 2: Let me.

996
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the media in this case, because, as

997
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: we talked about previously, the media frenzy over Amanda Knox

998
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 1: was insane. In this twenty sixteen documentary I watched, there

999
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: is a journalist for The Daily Mail name Nick Pisa,

1000
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: and he drives me absolutely nuts. He is so excited

1001
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: to talk about all the cover pages he got because

1002
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: he was reporting on Amanda Knox, and he talks about

1003
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: journalistic integrity. However, all of his headlines are foxy Knoxy

1004
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 1: and sex crazy, drug fueled orgies. And he's not presenting

1005
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: this case.

1006
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:49,919
Speaker 3: He's not researching.

1007
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 1: No, I mean, is he writing articles about the the

1008
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: problem in the DNA analysis? Is he writing articles about

1009
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 1: Rudy being there in his DNA everywhere and Rudy's confession?

1010
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: Is he writing articles about how she's being interrogated in

1011
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: a language she doesn't understand? No, you know what he's doing.

1012
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,959
Speaker 1: He's getting on her MySpace page and he's finding.

1013
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 3: Now we have flip phones, yes, Skype and my Space.

1014
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: So he gets on her MySpace page and there is

1015
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: a photo of her. So before she went to Perusia,

1016
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 1: I guess her and her sister went to Germany and

1017
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: they went to this World War two museum and there's

1018
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 1: a picture of her in her MySpace page, like holding

1019
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 1: this machine gun and like laughing.

1020
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 3: Well there's the murder weapon.

1021
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: So they take that photo and they blast that photo

1022
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 1: everywhere like she's like, she's a maniac, she's a murderer,

1023
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: she's a crazy psycho.

1024
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 3: Look at her this World War two machine gun.

1025
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 1: Then they find a picture of Rafaeltium, probably on his

1026
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:00,760
Speaker 1: MySpace page, of him dressed up for Halloween with a hat.

1027
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: So these tabloid, these these media photos are of her

1028
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 1: with a machine gun and him with a machete, and

1029
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: it's all about they're these crazy, crazed, you know, murderers.

1030
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 3: Did they searched their Aol accounts?

1031
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, probably, but they called her Foxy Noxy

1032
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 1: because that's what she that's what she called herself on MySpace,

1033
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: Foxy Noxi, Foxy Noxy and then that became her moniker.

1034
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: So it was like everything was like Foxy Noxy and

1035
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 1: all these images of her and it was a media storm.

1036
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 1: Now you tell me how this girl can get a

1037
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: fair trial when the media has already condemned her.

1038
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and you know what. The other interesting thing

1039
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 3: is Rudy and she signed confessions supposedly.

1040
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and the thing about Rudy is he's clearly

1041
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: he's guilty. He's guilty. There was no.

1042
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:53,359
Speaker 2: Media, No, he's one of them.

1043
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: No media surrounding was the Italian Well no, he he

1044
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: was from somewhere else European, European I think, and he

1045
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: was living in Italy and then he fled to Germany.

1046
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: He was kind of a drifter. It seemed to me

1047
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: like just you know, but there was no media coverage

1048
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 1: when he was arrested, and there was no there was hardly.

1049
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,919
Speaker 2: Eight I never heard of him, not that I researched.

1050
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: But any media coverage when he was on trial and

1051
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: he was found guilty of the murder. Nothing, No one

1052
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 1: was interesting.

1053
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 3: He was selling guilty of the murder.

1054
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 1: Yes, well so was she initially.

1055
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah that and see I never heard that, right,

1056
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 3: I'm proving your theory.

1057
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: Right, all right, So we get to Rudy's trial. Rudy

1058
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: goes on trial. He's convicted trial. They have separate trials.

1059
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:37,800
Speaker 3: So does he speak Italian?

1060
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: I don't. I think he does speak Italian. So he

1061
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: goes on this fast track trial. I don't know what

1062
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: that means. This must be an Italian thing. But this

1063
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: trial allowed for a shorter process before only a judge,

1064
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: no a speedy trial, no live witnesses, and a one

1065
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 1: third reduction in sentence if you're convicted. So his fast

1066
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 1: track trial begins in Perugia. This is in two thousand

1067
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 1: and eight. He's convicted of murder, sexual assault, and theft,

1068
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: and he sentenced to thirty years in prison, but it's

1069
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: later reduced to sixteen years because of he because he

1070
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: did the fast track. When I think fast track, I

1071
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: think when I drive on.

1072
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 2: The That's funny.

1073
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 3: It's like, if you choose for a speedy trial, you get.

1074
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: Like half this sentence. So anyway, he only so he

1075
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: so he sexually assaults and murders this young girl, and

1076
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 1: he goes to prison for sixteen years.

1077
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 3: Would you want to do that? Would he be like, Oh,

1078
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 3: I have a quick, that's weird.

1079
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,240
Speaker 1: Well guilty, I would take a fast track.

1080
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you would try to also, you know, fight

1081
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 3: it and not be guilty. Found guilty, Okay.

1082
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 1: So then Amanda and Rafaelle go on trial, and this

1083
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: is in two thousand and eight. This is after Rudy

1084
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,800
Speaker 1: goes on trial and Rudy's found guilty. The preliminary hearings

1085
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: examine whether there is enough evidence to go to trial.

1086
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: Amanda and Rafaelle maintain that they were alone in their

1087
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,439
Speaker 1: apartment at the time of the murder. So then they

1088
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: go on trial in Perugia in January through December of

1089
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine. So this first trial takes almost

1090
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: a year. And wow, okay the chief prosecutor actually and

1091
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 1: let me say one more thing. While she is in prison,

1092
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: they mess with her because they tell her that she

1093
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: has AIDS and she didn't. Do you believe that?

1094
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 3: Wow? They're like, we just took a blood sample and

1095
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 3: you have AIDS.

1096
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 1: Yes. So then she's completely freaked out, thinks she's going

1097
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:26,399
Speaker 1: to die, and she writes this journal talking about how

1098
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 1: she has AIDS and then she writes down all of

1099
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 1: her all the guys that she slept with and whether

1100
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 1: she's a condom or not, and I think there was

1101
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: like seven men. She's twenty something. She had sex apparently

1102
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: with seven guys. Then they get a hold of this

1103
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: journal that she hand wrote in prison, and that reporter

1104
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 1: I was talking about, Nick Peas that gets a hold

1105
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 1: of it and he wants to he publishes it.

1106
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 3: Just the part that I slept with all these people

1107
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 3: kind of yeah.

1108
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: So then they then again it just feeds into that

1109
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 1: media frenzy of her being this you know.

1110
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 2: Crazy sexy, well foxy.

1111
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: Nazi, foxy noxie. So the chief prosecutor called about twenty

1112
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:06,759
Speaker 1: witnesses to discuss it.

1113
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,240
Speaker 3: As this is early in the internet days too. Imagine

1114
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 3: if like it was today, if Foxy NAXI would have

1115
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 3: like a whole trail of stuff for them right to find.

1116
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 1: All right, So the prosecution calls like twenty witnesses. Then

1117
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,359
Speaker 1: the defense comes on and the defense began presenting its case,

1118
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: with Amanda taking the stand as the primary witness. Rafaeli

1119
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 1: did not testify. His attorneys decided it was strategically better

1120
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: to keep attention on Knox, so Knox appeared confident while

1121
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:37,319
Speaker 1: testifying and carefully addressed questions about her unusual actions such

1122
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 1: as showering after discovering the blood in her shared bathroom,

1123
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:44,760
Speaker 1: and why she initially accused Patrick La Mumba. She described

1124
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 1: being slapped twice during her interrogation, demonstrating the strikes for

1125
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: the court. She explained, quote, they were yelling at me

1126
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 1: and I only wanted to leave and I was thinking

1127
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 1: about my mom, who was arriving. Soon after she finished,

1128
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:00,320
Speaker 1: her lawyer praised her performance, saying she had done very well.

1129
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 1: When the trial resumed after a two month summer recess,

1130
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 1: a series of expert witnesses debated the forensic evidence. The

1131
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,839
Speaker 1: defense challenged the prosecution's DNA findings, arguing that they were

1132
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:15,319
Speaker 1: unreliable obviously because of all the contamination, and requested that

1133
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: the judge authorize an independent review of the DNA. The judge, however,

1134
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: denied the request, and both Amanda and Rafaela were found

1135
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: guilty of murder on December fourth, two thousand and nine.

1136
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 1: Amanda is sentenced to twenty six years in prison and

1137
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,840
Speaker 1: Rafaelle is sentenced to twenty five years in prison.

1138
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 3: And so she was in prison for two years. I

1139
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 3: think four, Well, no, two, you're right, I'm sorry, but

1140
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:42,399
Speaker 3: seven ninety two years.

1141
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 1: Yes, sorry, I went to law school. I don't do

1142
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:49,399
Speaker 1: math very well. Then in twenty eleven comes around their

1143
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: first chance at an appeal. So Amanda and Rafaelle appeal

1144
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 1: to the Court of Appeals of Perugia and their convictions

1145
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 1: are overturned on appeal. This is in twenty eleven. The

1146
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 1: court ruled that the DNA evidence was unreliable, that Amanda

1147
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 1: was coerced into making statements and those were inadmissible, and

1148
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 1: both were acquitted and released from prison in twenty eleven.

1149
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 3: Okay, so she's oh, so she was in there, So

1150
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 3: she was in there for four years.

1151
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, you were correct in that sense.

1152
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I knew there was four years. So she actually

1153
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 1: spent four years in prison in Italy. So she was

1154
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 1: arrested in two thousand and seven, put into prison, and

1155
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: then she got out on appeal in twenty eleven. So

1156
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 1: she spent four years in an Italian prison. Then Amanda

1157
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 1: returns to the United States and Rafaela resumed his life

1158
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: in Italy.

1159
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 2: Then they broke up, well, they they broke.

1160
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 1: Up when they were in prison. There's some letters going

1161
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 1: back and forth between the two eleven and they're not together.

1162
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 1: I mean they only dated five days or six days.

1163
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 1: I mean, we keep acting like this is this big,

1164
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 1: like like long term Roman. You know what? This is

1165
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 1: what I keep thinking about Raphael. That guy wishes he

1166
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 1: never went to that music concert that night. Can you imagine, right,

1167
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 1: this guy just went to a concert, saw a cute

1168
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: blonde American girl, thought she was pretty, took her home,

1169
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 1: made her dinner, had sex with her. The next thing,

1170
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: he ends up in prison in Italy for four years.

1171
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 1: So the Italian prosecutors appealed to the Supreme Court, and

1172
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, the Supreme Court orders a retrial in Florence.

1173
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 2: She's now in the States.

1174
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 1: Though, right, yes, so she's home, but now she has

1175
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 1: to be tried again.

1176
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 3: And I assume that we extraditeer or whatever.

1177
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 1: No, she doesn't. They actually allow her to stay in

1178
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: the United States and her lawyer represents her for this.

1179
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 3: Well that's a big suspense. Yeah, it's like at homegoing

1180
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 3: what happened today?

1181
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 2: I know about me?

1182
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: If you watch the twenty sixteen documentary, it shows her

1183
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 1: at home waiting for kidding the verdict. Can you imagine? No?

1184
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 2: Right, then I would be planning my escape.

1185
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, where are you going?

1186
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I have a backup plan. Yeah,

1187
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 3: Raphael's got overturned too, right, Yeah.

1188
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 1: He goes home to the United States, he goes on

1189
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 1: with his life in Italy. Then the prosecution appeals that decision,

1190
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 1: so now it goes to the Supreme Court. So now

1191
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,439
Speaker 1: there is a retrial that they don't have to be at,

1192
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 1: so they're not there in person. So the prosecution presented

1193
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 1: some of the same evidence but relied on a different

1194
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 1: interpretation than In January of twenty fourteen, Amanda and Rafaelle

1195
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 1: were again found guilty of meritith murder. Amanda, who was

1196
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 1: in the United States at the time, was sentenced to

1197
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 1: twenty eight and a half years in prison, this time,

1198
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 1: with Rafaela receiving twenty five. So now they've been reconvicted

1199
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 1: on this new trial.

1200
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 3: Unreal.

1201
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 1: So March twenty seventh of twenty fifteen, they're finally acquitted

1202
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 1: because they appeal that verdict. So Amanda and Rafaela appeal

1203
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 1: the verdict and it goes to the Italian Supreme Court.

1204
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 1: The Italian Supreme Court definitively ecquits them, ending a nearly

1205
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: decade long legal battle in Italy. The court stated that

1206
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: the evidence was insufficient and unreliable, and they confirmed that

1207
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 1: the only person definitively involved in Meritith murder was Rudy Getty.

1208
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 1: Wow can you imagine going through that how psychologically?

1209
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean I she probably never finished school

1210
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 3: or anything, but she did.

1211
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:24,120
Speaker 2: Oh wow, good for her home.

1212
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 1: She went home and she finished school.

1213
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, stopped going to concerts, probably doesn't go to

1214
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 3: doesn't have a roommate.

1215
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, she ended up getting married. She has a husband,

1216
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 1: she has two children.

1217
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 3: Now that's good. You know, if there's any any prison

1218
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 3: to be in, I guess it would be an Italian prison.

1219
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: Why do you think because you get cheese and pasta.

1220
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Alfredo.

1221
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 3: It's like, we have the best cells, we have top quality,

1222
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 3: we have three hundred thread count.

1223
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true, but I don't know.

1224
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 3: Well I take my chances in Italy, all right.

1225
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: So, finally an Italian court upheld Amanda Knox's twenty twenty

1226
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 1: four slander conviction for falsely accusing Patrick la Mumba. So

1227
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 1: even though she was finally, finally, finally freed of the

1228
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 1: murder charges and the sexual assault, she still has the

1229
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: slander charges against her, and I guess you were saying

1230
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 1: we were talking about this earlier where.

1231
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 3: Yeah explained the slander charges from who.

1232
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: Well, when she named Patrick la Mumba in her confession,

1233
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 1: he sued her for slander and she was convicted of that.

1234
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 1: But you were saying here in the US, when when

1235
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 1: you're being interrogated, like you wouldn't have been hell old.

1236
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1237
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 3: There's something called quasi immunity. So it's like, you know,

1238
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 3: if I'm suing someone and then we go to court

1239
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 3: and I'm at the podium and then I say he's lying,

1240
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 3: he's a liar, he stole. That could be defamation if

1241
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 3: if it's proven to not be true. But in a

1242
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:52,240
Speaker 3: court you have protection because otherwise no one would make

1243
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 3: any allegations in courtroom.

1244
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 1: Right. Well, and that's what we talked about earlier.

1245
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 3: I don't know if her interrogation or excuse me, her

1246
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 3: confession written confession, and that should be protected otherwise she

1247
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 3: would be fearful to anyone would be fearful to put

1248
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 3: anything in writing because it could be used against him.

1249
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 1: Right And that's the problem because she did name Patrick

1250
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 1: after she But here's the thing. If the court finds

1251
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 1: that she was coerced, you know what I mean, and

1252
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 1: then the slander charge should be thrown out as well

1253
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 1: because it doesn't right.

1254
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 2: Right as a result of But anyway, that was upheld.

1255
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:26,480
Speaker 1: I guess at this point she's like, fine, you want

1256
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 1: to slap me with a slander charge, take it out

1257
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:31,919
Speaker 1: in prison for four years and I've been going through

1258
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 1: this for ten. So in twenty eighteen, she married Christopher Robinson,

1259
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: an American author. Together they host a podcast called Labyrinths,

1260
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 1: and they have two young children, a daughter and a son.

1261
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 1: She also continues to speak out. I do know, you know,

1262
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:47,440
Speaker 1: I work a lot with the Edoson Center. She's actually

1263
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 1: a board member at the Edison Center. She is an

1264
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 1: advocate for the wrongly convicted. I've also seen her speak.

1265
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: I think it was maybe I'm trying to figure out

1266
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 1: when it was, but I think it was back in

1267
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 1: maybe twenty eighteen.

1268
01:02:58,560 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 3: I might be earlier than that.

1269
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:02,200
Speaker 1: I went to LA and I watched her speak. It

1270
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 1: was really interesting. She wrote a memoir called Waiting to

1271
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,920
Speaker 1: be Heard back in twenty thirteen, which details her time

1272
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 1: in Italy, the trial, and her perspective on being wrongfully accused.

1273
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 1: Despite her public presence. Knox has also sought privacy and

1274
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 1: strongly advocates for victims' rights and media accountability. She continues

1275
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 1: to reflect on her experience to help others understand the

1276
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 1: consequences of wrongful accusations. And now, currently, Amanda Knox has

1277
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 1: teamed up with none other than Monica Lewinsky. Oh yeah,

1278
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 1: and they have teamed up to make a new Hulu

1279
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 1: limited series called The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, which

1280
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 1: I am very excited to watch. It is not a

1281
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 1: documentary style, it is a reenactment like one like The

1282
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 1: menindaz One. So Amanda Knox and Monica Lewinsky have collaborated

1283
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,840
Speaker 1: together on a new limited series about Knox's life entitled

1284
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 1: The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox. It is now streaming

1285
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 1: on Hulu and Disney Plus. And Lewinsky appeared on Good

1286
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 1: Morning America. They're on a media tour now. I keep

1287
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 1: seeing that every time I get onto my newsfeed, which

1288
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 1: is Instagram. But they're doing their press now because of

1289
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 1: this new Hulu series that's coming out, and they described

1290
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 1: why their partnership made sense. Lewinsky noted that both women

1291
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 1: were publicly vilified at a very young age and became

1292
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 1: distorted versions of themselves in the press. Knox added that

1293
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 1: while their situations were different, they shared the same experience

1294
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 1: of being interrogated and misrepresented on a world stage. Both

1295
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 1: Knox and Lewinsky emphasize that the show acknowledges Meredith's kircher.

1296
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 1: Knox stress the importance of ensuring Meredith was portrayed as

1297
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 1: a real person, not just a character in the story,

1298
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 1: noting that her presence continues to shape her life even today. Actually,

1299
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:48,920
Speaker 1: and I thought this was interesting too, because I didn't

1300
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:53,560
Speaker 1: know if Amanda and Rafael were in touch currently. I

1301
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:55,720
Speaker 1: didn't know if they were friendly. I didn't know if

1302
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 1: they hated each other. I didn't know what their standing

1303
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: was as of today. But it said that Raphael made

1304
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 1: a public appearance at the premiere in New York City,

1305
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 1: and that was just a couple of days ago. So

1306
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:11,959
Speaker 1: and then also I learned that in twenty twenty two,

1307
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox and Rafael reunited together in Italy when she

1308
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 1: was there traveling with her family, and they met in

1309
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 1: this small Italian town called Goobio. I don't know if

1310
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 1: I'm saying that right, it's Gubbio. Because they had planned

1311
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 1: to take a day trip there together the day that

1312
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 1: Meredith was murdered. So clearly they're on good terms. And

1313
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 1: he claims that when they're together, they don't talk about

1314
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 1: any of this situation. They don't talk about prison, they

1315
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 1: don't talk about being convicted, they don't talk about.

1316
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 3: At some point they did and now they've moved on right.

1317
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:50,440
Speaker 1: All right, anyway, thank you guys so much for listening

1318
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 1: to the Amanda Knox story. Again. You can watch the

1319
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:56,520
Speaker 1: new Hulu series The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox coming up,

1320
01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 1: and I think, well, once we watch it, we'll probably

1321
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: talk about Amandaox a little bit again, just to add

1322
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 1: if there's any new insights in that as well. This

1323
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 1: is I found this story truly intriguing. I hope you

1324
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 1: guys do as well. Also, one other thing that's very interesting,

1325
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 1: Shane and I will be interviewing Amanda Knox in person

1326
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 1: coming up soon. So when you're listening to this or

1327
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 1: you're watching the Hulu series or the documentary that I

1328
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 1: talked about from twenty sixteen, what questions do you have

1329
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 1: for Amanda DM me, because I would love to know. Obviously,

1330
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 1: we have questions that will come up with but also

1331
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: we want to know your insights. What would you like

1332
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:37,360
Speaker 1: to ask her that we can ask her that day.

1333
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:39,480
Speaker 1: So anyway, thank you guys so much for listening to

1334
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:44,959
Speaker 1: Legally Brunette. Thank you, thank you,