WEBVTT - Humanity, the Bad feat. Andrew 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.720 All the media. 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:10.200 Hello and welcome to it happen here. Last episode, I 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:14.080 was joined by your savior. Hello, and he's here again 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.720 because we're gonna get more into what we spoke about 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:21.000 last time. Last episode, we painted a hopeful account of 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:24.960 humanity's nature. Could see if my reading of Rutka Bregmann's 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:29.120 Humankind a hopeful history. So I probably fed into the 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:32.639 anarchists so utopia narrative a bit with that previous episode. 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:35.720 But the truth is that I'm not really being optimistic 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:41.000 and being realistic. But realism has been confused with cynonicism 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:44.040 for so long that even acknowledging both sides of the 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:49.080 coin can be seen as overly utopia. People can be bad, 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:52.320 and we'll get into the why. But for whatever reason 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.760 they are bad, that is why as anarchists have consistently 0:00:55.880 --> 0:01:00.000 argued nobody should have authority. Now they will always be outlined. 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:03.000 And this explanation I'm about to share it is not 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:07.520 going to get into every unique case of badness, but 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:09.280 we are going to get into some of the reasons 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:12.400 that people do bad and what we can do about it. 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.640 As I said last episode, we took issue with this 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:22.160 idea of civilization as a thin venail and were put 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:26.520 forward the premise the Keemans are mostly pretty decent. In fact, 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.480 I didn't mention it last episode, but we don't even 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.399 really like to kill each other, contrary to popular belief, 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:36.600 brag when actually shares that in World War Two, studies 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.880 showed that many soldiers didn't shoot their weapons even in combat. 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.880 Trained soldiers had a difficult time actually pulling the trigger 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.760 and killing people. There are exceptions, as I said before, 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:51.240 but in a lot of cases it's very difficult for 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:56.000 people to actually kill. Military strategies ended up changing once 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:59.560 authorities realized this, and the training programs of soldiers was 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.520 to readers time to overcome this resistance. But that reluctance 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:07.440 to killin does also indicate that it takes some effort 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:12.920 to overcome our general decency toward each other because most people, 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:17.720 again most on all, are not natural born killers. So again, 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.760 how do we do bad? You know, all sorts of 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.800 atrostees have been carried out by humans, both in ancient 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.520 and modern times. What do you think is the course. 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:31.799 Self preservation in some way, either physical or psychological. I'm 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:35.160 not an anthropologist, I'm not a sociologist. Most of my 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:39.400 experiences with people is both queer people and then looking 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.480 at Nazis and like political extremists. So it's maybe not 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:46.440 the best sample side for the general population. I think 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:50.280 I tend to exist kind of on the perimeter of 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:55.799 most human experience, but probably some form of either psychological 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.960 or physical self preservation in my experience slash opinion. 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.799 That's interesting. I didn't think of it. I think it 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.240 comes close to what Breaguen ends up getting into, but 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:12.240 I think self preservation, well, we'll get into that in 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:16.200 a bit. You know, it's it's difficult to square that 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.720 with just how brutal some of these disasters have been, 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:24.680 you know, these atrocities that have taken place around the world, 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:29.280 organized systemic industrial cruelty, you know, things like the Holocaust. 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.919 Totally, it's interesting because I think it's two paradoxical instincts 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:36.320 that play off each other. There's this self preservation and 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.080 there's also I believe in I thin guess some version 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.160 of the death drive, and I think those can can 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:47.480 interact in really odd ways. But the desk drive, Yeah, 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:49.800 like it's like it's specifically, it's like specifically like like 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:51.800 fascism and like you know, you can see this in 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:54.520 like the genocides of the twentieth century and twenty first 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.800 centuries like specifically, but no like fascism as like a 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:02.240 political embodying of the death, which is I think also 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.400 an aspect. I think these things exist together in parallel 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.920 while being paradoxical, and that's what produces a lot of 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:13.600 the incongruity around things like fascism, right, it is, it 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.360 is like an inherently paradoxical system. 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.320 When you say self preservation, are you just talking about 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:22.360 on the individual level, or are you seeing like community 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:24.120 self preservation as. 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:27.360 Well, both both, but also I think not even just physical, 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.039 but also like psychological, like being able to like continue 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.599 being able to continue existing as yourself, either within a 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.240 group of people or just you as an individual, Like 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:38.640 psychological things that you need to do to make yourself 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:41.160 feel like you're in community or that you are safe, 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.480 that you have meaning, or that you have purpose as 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:44.760 well as the physical aspects. 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:48.680 And you're saying that that lends itself to atrocity. 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:48.839 I think it can. 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.320 Yeah, yeah, yeah, well that actually is strikingly close to 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:54.640 what Bragman ends up uncovering. 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:56.839 Look at the reasons that people will talk about for 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:00.240 like why the genocide and Gaza is like necessary, right? 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:00.800 It is? 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.719 It is playing off both of those impulses. 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.839 Yeah, yeah, I mean all sorts of genocides when you 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:09.719 hear the descriptions of them, and this is what you 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.520 hear of the people who perpetuated them, what their explanations 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:19.400 or justifications, you know, from the Holocaust to Rwanda to Palestine. Yeah, 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.160 it's me and mar you know, totally it is deeply 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.880 Evil's that something we can look away from it? It 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.200 really is difficult to square with the most humans a 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.000 decent thesis when you look at how some of these 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:35.200 society is, even the ordinary people, for example, the citizen 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.800 population of Israel, even the civilian population, even they are 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:44.479 like disturbingly genocideh in their rhetoric. And so you know, 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:46.400 it's like, how do we reach that point? How do 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:50.040 we get there? How does an ordinary human baby grow 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:50.720 into that? 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:53.919 It can happen to you. It can happen very easily, 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:55.599 and I think it can happen in a short time 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:57.760 span and you can get out of it. I think 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.000 maybe not just as easily, but you can't get out 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.240 of it also in a fastime span. I think it's 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:04.320 like that you are not immune to propaganda. Idea you 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.600 can look at like in n To Germany, Robert has 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:10.839 talked about quote unquote the little Nazis, the regular Germans 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:14.200 who ended up partipating and becoming Nazis, and you are 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:18.880 not immune from that, and that can happen as a 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.640 response to a whole bunch of traumatic impulses as well. 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.520 Whereas I think people now even use like politics just 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:29.320 to You're like this like idea of politics as permission 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:33.920 to be like an overtly cruel person to other people, 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.479 either like in your life or online. Right, you will 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:40.239 you will use use various political topics, and that gives 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:44.159 you permission to unleash unmitigated hostility against people that you 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:46.960 now perceive as being like immoral or you perceive as 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:48.560 being like ontological enemies. 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:53.760 Exactly exactly. I mean there were particular studies that were 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.240 undertaken in the twentieth century that are often used to 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:00.840 sort of explain that, you know, after all of Nazi 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:03.760 Germany and the post World War TWI era, people will 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:08.800 seeking explanations for atrocity and so so experiments were done 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.800 and are now pointed to as explanations for how this 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:15.600 could have taken place. You know, so one particular experiment 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:18.760 that's really well known as the Stanford prison experiment. Right, 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:22.280 this idea that you take random students and give them 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:26.520 a position of power and they become sadistic gods. You know, 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:29.400 it proves just how thin the ven ale civilization really is, 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:34.280 or already the evil the civilization could empower. But at 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:38.840 least for that particular experiment, the reality was never so straightforward. 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:42.360 You know, the gods were literally coached and encouraged to 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:45.800 be cruel. You know, they were actually putting on performances. 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:50.240 The prisoners were also expected to perform, so rather than 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:53.720 being like an actual scientific experiment, it was more like 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:54.840 guided theater. 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.520 I mean it inadvertently, it becomes an interesting experiment in 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:03.240 like humans desired to like please authority. 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:05.760 Right exactly, exactly, to like perform to. 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.960 The expectations of the people who are actually running this experiment, 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:13.080 and how capable you are of falling into these roles 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:15.920 under like under that paradigm exactly. 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:17.720 I mean, you see that in Nazi Germany as well, 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.320 a lot of the people were doing things to please 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:24.560 the fear, you know, like they didn't necessarily know or 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.600 there was a lot of wiggle room from what I've 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:31.840 read to interpret the fear as wishes, Yeah, as people 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:35.240 who wanted to rank up and rise up in the 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.720 in the organization, but interpret things in a way that 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:45.000 they would presume would please Pitta and his desires moving 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.000 towards the fear. Yeah, exactly, exactly. That's the that's the 0:08:48.040 --> 0:09:01.000 name of the phenomenon. I mean, when the sound for 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:04.679 Person experim When people tried to recreate the experiment for television, 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.520 E've got it made for pretty boring TV because it 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.800 was bad science in the first place. It's not something 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:13.960 that people do not actually, it's it's what they do 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:16.520 when they are pushed, when they are prodded, you know, 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:19.360 when certain expectations, et ceter. It's kind of similar with 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:22.760 this other famous experiment that that Bragman talks about, which 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:27.160 is the Stanley Milcrumb's Obedience experiments, where volunteers were told 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:31.600 to administer increasingly painful electric shocks the stranger just because 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.000 I got in a lamp code told them to. It's 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.839 like another instance of you know, we doing these things 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.400 just to please authority, even to the point of murder, 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.920 because you know, the dial of the electric shock was 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:46.200 deadly after a certain point, and you could hear the 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:49.000 screams of the the victims. Of course they were fake screams, 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:52.360 but you know, the participants could hear them. But what 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.360 Bragman ended up uncovering is that most of the participants 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:59.040 will't follow the orders blindly. They were following the orders, yes, 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.079 but they would do because they believed that they were 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:05.280 doing something good, something good for the good of science. 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.160 That even though the shocks were uncomfortable, that it wasn't 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.280 something they want to do, there was a noble sacrifice 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:15.400 in the name of progress. Even so, the participants weren't 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.200 in the front. You know, they were distressed, they were shaken, 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.240 they were sweat and they were begging to check on 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:24.320 the learner. But they also said things like he agreed 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:26.800 to be in the experiment, you know, or this will 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:29.320 help science right or I don't want to do this, 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:32.160 but I have to, demanded lab Coote, who is telling 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.080 them to continue, please continue, please continue. He was calm, 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.880 he was professional, and also even how the nudge is 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:41.800 that he used were framed made a difference. So if 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.160 he was directly ordering them and telling them you have 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.800 to do this, surprise many people would actually be more 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.280 likely to resist a direct order framed in that way 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.840 for such an experiment, but a more subtle nudge, just 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:58.280 like know what, you know, science, the experimental requires this, 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.040 you know, the experiment needs to do this at more 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.080 subtle It tended to get people to continue. And the 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.000 people who were interviewed who did take it up to 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:08.280 those higher volagers, they said they did it because they 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:13.400 believed they were contributing to scientific development. So it's really 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:17.960 this misguided belief in a higher cause that also contributes 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:22.120 to atrocity. It's very easy to get this idea that, oh, 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:24.440 you know that those are just monstrous people. You know, 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:26.400 we have this idea in pop culture that these the 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:31.480 Nazis are like cartoonish monsters. They are monstrous, but they 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:35.000 are monstrous people. You know, they are, at the end 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.400 of the day, people who do evil with the belief 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.600 that they're doing good. It's a very extent. I know 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:45.719 that there were some who you know, recanted or who 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:47.640 knew what they were doing wrong, but they had other 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.760 pressures that were pushing them in that direction. Right. There 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:54.679 are many explanations we was behaving and all sorts of situations, 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:56.960 but a lot of the people they thought that they 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:01.600 were contributing to the right things, didn't care, but they 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.240 were taught to care in the wrong direction. The bad 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:08.640 guys don't think that they're bad guys. And whether we're 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.120 talking about the Nazis of the past or the Designers 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:16.040 of today, they construct these elaborate narratives to frame themselves 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:18.320 as the righteous ones. You know, as far as the 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.560 Nazis are concerned, they are purge in Germany of a 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.520 serious threat to the well be in and the safety 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.920 of their future and all that stuff. Read Designers to stay. 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:30.160 You ask them, even though they're pariahs of the world 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.160 at this point, you ask them why they believe that 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:35.400 this must continue, and they will say, you know, we 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.920 have to defend ourselves. We have a right to defend ourselves. YadA, YadA, YadA. 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:43.520 There are true believers within these groups, you know, who 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.480 are able to commit some of the worst acts, committed 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.800 ideologues who boast of their trustees, who express no remorse, 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:53.520 who take pride in their role, and people reach that 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:58.360 point of ideology through a process of radicalization. You know, 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.439 we look at the tends to genocide. I think is 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.920 the framework people have used before to point out how 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:08.440 a segment of a population can become a target of genocide. 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.200 It's not like one day you wake up and it's 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:13.720 just like, oh, we're going to geneside this group of people. 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:18.400 It's a process. You know. First you start off with classification. 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:21.920 You create a separate group of people, separate category of poison. 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.280 You make them signify themselves in some way, carry ID 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:30.600 cards or some kind of insignia on their clothing or whatever. 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:34.440 They begin to face discrimination or some kind the discrimination, 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.320 you know, is ramped up through dehumanizing language. You compare 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.280 them to verment or rodents, the disease. And that's just 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:42.760 the thing, and we're going to get to that. But 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:47.240 part of how you get people who would otherwise be 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:52.920 caring or compassionate about their fellow human is through distance. Right, 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:58.280 So the people who who are most blood thirsty tend 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.360 to be very far from the front lines. You know, 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:04.600 people who are demanding that World War One continue, for example, 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.760 they were very far from the actual fighting versus at 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.560 the actual front lines of World War One. You had 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:17.040 soldiers playing football together during Christmas. That's a separate story. 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.880 But you create distance, either create physical distance or you 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.920 create psychological distance and dehumanization is one of the ways 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.440 you create psychological distance. You distance people from seeing their 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:31.160 fellow human being as a human being. Segregation is another 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.040 way of creating that distance, which then lends itself to 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:38.120 the humanization. Comparing the people to wom into animals, anything 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:41.000 other than human as another step in the humanization and 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.480 can people to separate themselves from those peopuel and then 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:47.080 they create specific groups. The next stage to create specific 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:52.520 groups and organizations to enforce discriminatory policies. You fool the broadcast, 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:57.680 operate the propaganda to polarize population. And then we'll step seven, eight, nine, 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:02.240 and ten go from actually preparing the removal relocation of 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:07.600 people to the persecution, the extermination of the group, and 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:11.680 finally the denial that such a crime ever could so 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:16.320 that process it can take years, it can take decades, 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.840 but it's something that can turn even the most regular 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:25.600 poison into virulent proponent of Rihanna side if they are 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:31.400 not fastidious in their opposition to any such language, especially 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:35.000 in the early stages, because they get fed this steady 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:38.320 extreme propaganda of all the actions are justified, their loyalty 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.000 to their inn group becomes tested by their willingness to 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.320 engage in those harmful actions. The stay with that group, 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:46.160 will do whatever their tool is good, even if it 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:50.200 leads to other people being hood and it just creates 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.280 an evil. But it's an ordinary evil. It's an evil 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.800 that is convinced of. It's a virtue. It is wrapped 0:15:55.840 --> 0:16:00.360 up in ideology and social conformity because you know, humans 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.800 are social creatures and it drives us to cooperate. But 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.600 that sociality can be narrowed down to test our in group. 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:10.880 And that's where Breakman actually gets into an interesting point 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:13.960 about empathy, right, because we tend to see empathy as 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.120 a positive thing, and it can be. But as Bragman notes, 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:21.640 drawn from psychologists Paul Bloom's work, empathy can also make 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:26.400 us partial, irrational, and even cruel, because it can narrow 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.240 our focus to those people who are like us and 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:32.920 ignore others. That's why soldiers can fight and kill other 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.720 people because they feel empathy for their in group, their 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.800 homeland citizens, or their comrades and arms. Their loyalty and 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:43.800 affection for the people they care about supersedes the lives 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:47.200 of the people that they don't care about. Now, of course, 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.120 we want to look at systems and we're talking about 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:51.280 this because I don't think that this hijack and of 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:56.680 empathy is inevitable. You know, nationalism, propaganda, these things play 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:00.520 a role in how people end up being separated this way, 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:03.800 and it's in groups and our groups. But you know, 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:06.520 there is also indications that in group and our group, 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.720 separation cann occur even in the absence of a stake, 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.520 So it is something we have to be continuously vigilanti of. 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:28.359 Another aspect of as a systemic analysis or approach, is 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:33.880 looking at how our position within society also shapes how 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.359 we operate, how we treat people, how we think, and 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:41.080 how we act. Bragrant cites neuroscience research that demonstrates how 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:46.280 authority literally changes how we think. Powerful people become less 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:50.120 empathetic and I'm more likely to see others as tools 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.960 rather than independent people. You know, this is not new information, 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:57.520 per see. You know, the envirolence that powerful people are 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:01.080 in both shapes them and are shaped by them, they say, 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.320 and has long gone that power corrupts and absolute power 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:09.400 crupts absolutely and spaces like Silicon Valley, like Wall streets, 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:13.040 like Washington, DC, like corporate boardrooms and all the other 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:16.879 upper echelons of government to divorce rulers and authorities from 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:20.200 ordinary people, their insular spaces that keep them from being 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.440 challenged or being grounded by the impact of their actions 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:27.040 and others, so powerful people don't have to care. And 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.680 I think such hierarchies are attractive to people who already 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:33.200 are inclined to do bad, even if they believe that 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:37.119 they're doing good. The authoritarians, the supremacists, the abusers, They 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.640 are attracted to those positions. But even good intention people 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.679 could lose themselves in authority too, because authorities as a 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:47.200 whole existed in this bubble that rewards their worst instincts, 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:51.360 and a further shape in the system around their worst instincts, 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:56.240 around distrust, selfishness, exploitation, and so on, to reward themselves 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.320 and their patterns of behavior, and thus, through the social 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:03.800 most seaway fact, people end up in that expectation created 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:04.399 by the system. 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:07.879 I guess my only comment here is that these systems 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:10.359 are not just exclusive to like state power or like 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:15.720 corporate authority. These same mechanisms reproduce themselves in all sorts 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:19.679 of social arrangements, including like radical politics, and frankly especially 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.119 radical politics. You can see it's a lot with groups, 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:27.040 whether they're communists, whether they're anarchists, whether they're I don't know. 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:32.439 Social democrats probably have this problem, but no specifically like 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:36.639 in anarchist scenes, you see this happen constantly. It is 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:38.880 almost funny how how much of these things just get 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:43.600 natively recreated and like in group out, group in amics 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:45.800 are always are always a big issue. I mean, like 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:50.560 you can also point to the book Cultish, which explains 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:56.720 how American culture is pretty defined by like cult like tendencies, 0:19:56.800 --> 0:19:59.280 not saying that every single group is a cult, but 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.720 cult dynamic explain to a large part of everyday American life. 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.160 And that's both good and bad. Sometimes being in occult 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:10.000 is fun until it's not very fun. So these dynamics 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:13.639 themselves are not necessarily you know, bad, but there's something 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:15.280 to be like mindful of. 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:21.119 Yeah, exactly, so in being mindful of it, you know, 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:23.359 that's an aspect of it. You know, we have to 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:30.760 find solutions to this academic of badness, of behaviors being 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:35.080 reinforced by these systems that are cause harm to people 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.399 and harm to the world. And so what I always 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:43.080 advocate for and we is big and small. I wouldn't 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.159 call it the one solution to everything, but it's it 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:50.600 does encompass a lot, but it's just understanding and taking 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:55.359 on a dynamic social revolutionary approach to change, you know, 0:20:55.560 --> 0:21:00.679 from the effort to do to confront the existence system, 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.120 to stand up against it. But they're also the things 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.200 that you do to put forward an alternative, to put 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:11.160 forward and to practice alternatives. So one of the things 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.359 that we can do is to create, but you know, 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:20.120 perpetuate a positive and trusting take on human decen see, 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:23.440 you know, to create that social place boy effect that 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:26.399 can shape how people treat each other for better, but 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:28.760 that can be boiled down to just be nicer to 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:32.159 each other. So there's more we've done than that. Of course, 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:34.679 on the systems front, we also to change how we 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:39.200 educate each other in radical spaces and also in terms 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:43.239 of how we raise children. We have to organize you know, 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:50.760 alternative economic systems and alternative social arrangements that get us 0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:56.040 in the habit of trust, of trusting people's freedom, of 0:21:56.160 --> 0:22:03.159 practicing freedom, and also of emphasizing greater intrinsic motivation in 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:05.800 people as well. You know, a lot of our society 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:10.320 is built around control and mechanisms of control through extrinsic 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:14.359 forms of motivation, you know, like punishments and prisons and 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.080 grades and bonuses and wages, all the different things that 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:21.080 are meant to keep us going here now. But I 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:24.960 think a system that more leans into intrinsic motivation is 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:27.399 something that we should be working toward. You know that 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.280 people do things so they're in see for reasons that 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:33.080 we are driven by. That I think is far more 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:37.920 sustainable long term and more fulfilling long term than continuing 0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:41.680 to be stuck with the punishments and rewards that come 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:45.320 from outside. Yes, we have to develop a revolutionary consciousness 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:50.280 that is also very much grounded in you know, people's 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:53.680 intrinsic motivation to have their needs met, to pursue their interests, 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:56.960 to care for others. And that is where I think 0:22:56.960 --> 0:22:59.879 we'll say tea in fors long term because you can 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:04.720 create all these bonuses and incentives externally, but I don't 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:07.960 think it's something that will last. There are, you know, 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:12.440 experiments in earth with a great emphasis on intrinsic motivation, 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:16.679 not even necessarily radical experiments. By see what Bregman actually 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:20.159 looks at examples of schools that don't have grades or 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:23.719 fixed curriculums, and that companies that don't have managers, that 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:26.919 are run entirely by employees. I mean, anarchists have been 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:30.040 known about these, but he emphasizes that the people in 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:33.520 these environments thrive because they've been trusted to direct themselves. 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:36.160 They can bring off the best in themselves because they've 0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:39.360 been given the room to do so, you know, and 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:43.280 spaces like free schools and maker spaces and cooperatives they 0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:47.120 give us the room to develop our cooperation and creativity. 0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:47.440 You know. 0:23:47.480 --> 0:23:49.760 Of course, the system isn't going to stand by as 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:54.160 these transformations take place. It might tolerate or even celebrate 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:57.520 some like the examples that Bregman had looked at, but 0:23:57.560 --> 0:24:00.080 those are always going to be treated as exceptions the 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:02.080