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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at ten am

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Speaker 1: Eastern on Apple, Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or watch us live on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: Here's a really special treat. Sitting next to me in

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Speaker 2: studio in New York, Mark German, Bloomberg Chief correspondent on

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Speaker 2: Global Technology. I worked here for thirteen years, and I

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Speaker 2: don't think I've ever seen you in person. You're usually

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Speaker 2: on the West Coast, but like you're real.

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Speaker 3: He's forty here last week as well, So I don't

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Speaker 3: know what's happening.

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Speaker 4: My goodness, I was off last week.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So obviously we're talking about this news that Apple

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Speaker 2: is going to add about twenty thousand US jobs. To

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Speaker 2: your understanding, how did this come about from Apple?

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Speaker 5: Okay, So during the first Trump administration, Tim Cook other companies,

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Speaker 5: we're obviously very worried about tariffs, right, and so their

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Speaker 5: strategy was we can try to make a deal here.

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Speaker 5: What does Trump want? Trump wants his supporters to know

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Speaker 5: or see that he's bringing jobs back to the US,

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Speaker 5: bringing money back to the US, bringing manufacturing back to

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Speaker 5: the US. Apple doesn't want tariffs on the phone, and

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Speaker 5: it wants to keep as much phone manufacturing in China

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Speaker 5: as possible. We don't have to get into the reasons

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Speaker 5: why there's a ton of them. Okay, So you have

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Speaker 5: these two sides, right, there is a universe in which

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Speaker 5: both parties can get exactly what they want.

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Speaker 6: It's like a trade.

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Speaker 5: Right, And so you saw that strategy in full form

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Speaker 5: this morning. Trump for months, obviously the Secondministration, has been

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Speaker 5: talking again about bringing back jobs, has been talking again

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Speaker 5: about moving things to the US, has been talking again

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Speaker 5: about extra tariffs some goods from China. So Apple comes

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Speaker 5: out with the press release this morning. We're investing five

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Speaker 5: hundred billion dollars in the US over the next four years, which,

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Speaker 5: by the way, that's Trump's term, right, he just started. Okay,

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Speaker 5: twenty thousand new jobs AI server manufacturing, Fox con in Houston,

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Speaker 5: doubling our manufacturing fund from five billion to ten billion,

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Speaker 5: setting up a manufacturing academy like a school in Detroit.

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Speaker 5: So you ask yourself, what's really going on here. They

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Speaker 5: want Trump to know that they're investing heavily in the US.

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Speaker 5: And since we're doing that. We don't want tariffs, and

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Speaker 5: so the spin to Trump is that we're doing this

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Speaker 5: because of you. The reality is somewhere in the middle.

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Speaker 5: The reality is that Apple has been investing as part

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Speaker 5: of its business operations in the US from the very beginning.

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Speaker 5: The reality is in twenty twenty one, Apple announced the

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Speaker 5: four hundred and thirty billion dollar investment in the US.

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Speaker 5: The reality is that Apple hires four thousand R and

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Speaker 5: D employees a year in the US. Anyways, what's actually

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Speaker 5: new here? To be fair to both Trump and Apple,

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Speaker 5: there is a bit of an acceleration. So their typical

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Speaker 5: spend on the twenty twenty one US investment plan eighty

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Speaker 5: six billion dollars annually. Okay, the new plan one hundred

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Speaker 5: and twenty five billion dollars a year annually. So you're

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Speaker 5: getting a forty billion dollar Trump under Trump, and you're

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Speaker 5: moving from four thousand people on the R and D

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Speaker 5: side hired annually to five thousand people. So incremental, sure,

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Speaker 5: but definitely an acceleration.

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Speaker 3: Okay, one minute, is there a quid pro quote here?

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Speaker 3: Do you think Apple actually already has a deal with

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Speaker 3: President Trump that they will be exempt from tariffs?

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Speaker 4: No, okay, But.

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Speaker 5: Tim Cook went to Donald Trump's office last week and

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Speaker 5: presented this to him, said, we're going to do this

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Speaker 5: because of you, man. Oh and by the way, we

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Speaker 5: don't want to pay tariffs. And Trump knows that Trump

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Speaker 5: doesn't care about giving Apple or a Prieve on teriff.

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Speaker 5: He's happy to do it. And he's happy to do

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Speaker 5: it and tell people that he did it. Because Tim

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Speaker 5: Cook is investing half a trillion dollars during his presidency.

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Speaker 5: He can go back to his supporters, his base, he

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Speaker 5: can go back to Congress, he can go back to

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Speaker 5: the world and tell them that the world's biggest technology company,

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Speaker 5: the most famous company in the world, is investing half

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Speaker 5: a trillion dollars. It's biggest investment commitment ever, right because

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Speaker 5: of me and for Trump, that's awesome. Yep. And for

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Speaker 5: Tim Cook, not having to pay tariffs is awesome. And

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Speaker 5: I think that's good enough to get some sort of

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Speaker 5: tariff for prieve. And by the way, let's say Trump

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Speaker 5: doesn't give them a tiff for prieve. Who cares? Right,

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Speaker 5: I was doing this anyways, if I'm Tim.

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Speaker 1: Cook, you're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence podcast. Catch us

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Speaker 1: live weekdays at ten Am Eastern on Apple Cocklay and

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Speaker 1: Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: Alex Steel here alongside Paul Sweeney. This is Bloomberg Intelligence

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Speaker 2: Radio Happening right now in Hollywood, Florida. Is the BEMO

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Speaker 2: Metals Conference and Metals and Mining Conference. I used to

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Speaker 2: go back in my day when I was covering gold.

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Speaker 2: It's really cool you get to talk about metals, and

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Speaker 2: we're lucky enough to talk now to Kathleen Quirk, President

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Speaker 2: and CEO of Freeport Macmaar and Copper and Gold. Kathleen,

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Speaker 2: it's a sincere pleasure. If I take a look at

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Speaker 2: your stock versus the copper price, you usually track each

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Speaker 2: other in the last couple of months. That hasn't been

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Speaker 2: the case. Is that a demand issue? Is that a

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Speaker 2: supply issue? How do you explain that.

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Speaker 7: Alex is good to be with you and you need

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Speaker 7: to come back to Hollywood.

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Speaker 8: This is a great conference.

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Speaker 7: In terms of the stock price and the copper price,

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Speaker 7: we've seen somewhat of a disconnect in recent weeks. I

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Speaker 7: think there's some concern in the market about China and

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Speaker 7: about the trajectory of copper prices as we go forward.

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Speaker 7: So there's some risks that people are discounting the current

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Speaker 7: copper price, but as we look at the situation and

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Speaker 7: look at copper demand going forward, Copper, as you know,

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Speaker 7: is the metal when it comes to electrification, and we're

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Speaker 7: looking ahead at all of the build out that needs

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Speaker 7: to take place and energy infrastructure, not just in the

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Speaker 7: US but around the globe. China has already been doing it,

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Speaker 7: but we're starting to see it taking place in the

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Speaker 7: US and other places. It's very copper intensive, and we

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Speaker 7: see a situation where demand for copper is going to

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Speaker 7: be faced with a secular uplift of opportunity for growth

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Speaker 7: and copper unrelated to cyclical drivers. So we're actually we're

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Speaker 7: actually really bullish about where copper is today and what

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Speaker 7: the likelihood for increases are for the future.

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Speaker 3: Kathleen, I think so far every S and P five

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Speaker 3: hundred CEO on their conference call has been asked about

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Speaker 3: tariffs and the impact on their business. What will a

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Speaker 3: rising tariff regime potentially mean for your business.

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Speaker 7: We're following it very closely. We're looking at it trying

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Speaker 7: to understand exactly what degree of terraff will be imposed.

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Speaker 7: No one exactly knows what it will be, although companies

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Speaker 7: are preparing for it. Freeport operates all over the world,

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Speaker 7: but we have a significant operation, significant presence in the US,

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Speaker 7: and actually we're integrated in the US. We not only

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Speaker 7: have minds that produce copper, but we also have a

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Speaker 7: smelter that processes our copper. So we don't have a

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Speaker 7: need as a company to import copper from other countries.

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Speaker 7: Copper is imported into the US because there's not enough

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Speaker 7: current current supply of copper to meet the demand. But

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Speaker 7: from a micro standpoint, as we look at what the

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Speaker 7: market is pricing in for the impact of tariffs, actually

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Speaker 7: the US price of copper, when you look at where

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Speaker 7: US commodity prices are today and copper prices are today,

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Speaker 7: the US price is something on the order of twenty

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Speaker 7: five cents per pound higher than copper that's priced on

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Speaker 7: international markets. So actually, for Freeport, we're actually receiving for

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Speaker 7: the copper that we sell in the US, we're actually

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Speaker 7: receiving a premium to copper that we sell out of

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Speaker 7: say South America or out of Indonesia. So it's actually

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Speaker 7: right now in the short term a benefit for Freeport

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Speaker 7: several hundred million dollars a year potentially. But the thing

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Speaker 7: that we're watching, and the thing as we've talked to

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Speaker 7: investors and other business leaders, is the impact the potential

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Speaker 7: impact of tariffs on global growth. China is a big

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Speaker 7: consumer of copper consumes, likely above fifty percent five zero

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Speaker 7: percent of the market, and so an all our trade

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Speaker 7: war could impact global growth. It could impact copper prices,

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Speaker 7: it could impact you know, say manifest it self through

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Speaker 7: a strong dollar, which also impacts commodity prices.

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Speaker 8: So we're watching those macro issues.

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Speaker 7: But in terms of the on the ground today we

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Speaker 7: are getting a premium for the copper that we sell

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Speaker 7: in the US.

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Speaker 2: We have about thirty seconds and then you have to

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Speaker 2: run to an investor meeting. So in twenty seconds, what

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Speaker 2: do you think the copper price is going.

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Speaker 4: To do this year?

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Speaker 2: If we take a look at the lme are we

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Speaker 2: looking at ten twelve thousand?

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Speaker 8: You know, it's very difficult.

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Speaker 7: We're not in the business of predicting short term prices,

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Speaker 7: alex as.

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Speaker 8: You probably know.

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Speaker 7: We're in the business to control our costs, to invest

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Speaker 7: wisely and prudently. We have a very positive long term

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Speaker 7: outlook for comp upper. It just you can't replace copper

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Speaker 7: today for four hours a pound. We need higher prices

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Speaker 7: in the future in order to invest in the business

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Speaker 7: and generate the growth and demand, growth and supply to

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Speaker 7: meet the expected growth in demand. So we're very positive

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Speaker 7: on the long term, but the short term is difficult

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Speaker 7: to assess.

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Speaker 2: All right, Kathleen, we appreciate it. Please come back when

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Speaker 2: we all have more time. We'd love to break down

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Speaker 2: some more stuff with you. Kathleen Quirk as President and

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Speaker 2: CEO of Freeport Macarin, Copper and Gold.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live

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Speaker 1: weekdays at ten am Eastern on Applecarplay and Android Otto

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Speaker 1: with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: Alex deal here alongside Paul Sweeney. This is Bloomberg Intelligence Radio.

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Speaker 2: We bring you all the top news in business, economics

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Speaker 2: and finance through our lens of our Bloomberg Intelligence folks.

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Speaker 2: They cover two thousand companies and one hundred and thirty

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Speaker 2: industries world. We go now for a broader view. Victoria

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Speaker 2: Fernandez is chief market strategistic Crossroad to global investments, and

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Speaker 2: she joins us now from Houston, Victoria. By the dip

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Speaker 2: has been the norm, then there's been chattering that by

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Speaker 2: the dip won't last and that we're on borrowed time

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Speaker 2: for that. Where do you stand on that?

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I think it depends alex on the size of

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Speaker 9: the dip that we're looking at. When we have small

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Speaker 9: pullbacks that happen just in regular volatility due to the

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Speaker 9: uncertainty around whether it's going to be fed policy or

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Speaker 9: whether it's fiscal policy, and those are going to be

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Speaker 9: things where I'm not sure you want to jump in

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Speaker 9: and start buying a lot of names.

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Speaker 4: But I do think that as we.

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Speaker 9: Go through the first half of this year, we probably

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Speaker 9: will have a chance as there will be a more

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Speaker 9: significant pullback. I'm not saying we're going into recession by

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Speaker 9: any means, but I do think you're going to see

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Speaker 9: things start to pull back, probably led by maybe weaker earnings.

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Speaker 9: As we get the first quarter earnings of this year,

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Speaker 9: we see those slow down, We see the labor market.

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Speaker 4: Slow down, consumer spending slow down.

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Speaker 9: That I think then is going to be your opportunity

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Speaker 9: to go in and find those areas within the market

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Speaker 9: where you have seen sectors start to struggle and maybe

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Speaker 9: form a trough and on their way back to have

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Speaker 9: up upside trends. That's where you'll want to go in

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Speaker 9: and start buying.

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Speaker 3: So, Victoria, you mentioned earnings were about little more than

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Speaker 3: eighty percent of the way through the fourth quarter earnings there.

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Speaker 3: What are your takeaways from those earnings and maybe from

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Speaker 3: the guidance.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, so you know, Paul, surprisingly, earnings have been really

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Speaker 9: good for the fourth quarter. I mean we're looking at

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Speaker 9: what fifteen percent earnings growth, five percent revenue growth. I

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Speaker 9: think energy is really the only sector where we have

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Speaker 9: seen negative growth as as a whole for the.

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Speaker 4: Sector, So really strong there.

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Speaker 9: And I thought we would have start to seen some

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Speaker 9: of the effects of the higher rates that we had

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Speaker 9: throughout twenty twenty four. I thought we would see some

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Speaker 9: of the effects of the labor market weakenings start there.

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Speaker 9: But maybe it's getting pushed in to the first quarter

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Speaker 9: earnings as tariff concerns pulled forward a lot of elements

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Speaker 9: into the fourth quarter of twenty twenty four. So strong earnings,

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Speaker 9: and I think that's why you saw probably the S

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Speaker 9: and P hit a high last week because that animal

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Speaker 9: spirit is still running due to the earnings and that

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Speaker 9: support to the economy, but that's probably going to start

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Speaker 9: fading away. We saw it at the end of last week.

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Speaker 9: I think we'll see some more of that over the

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Speaker 9: coming weeks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and speaking of this is from Bloomberg Intelligence, just

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Speaker 2: talking about earnings. Apparently companies that guided high on profit

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Speaker 2: and sales have outperformed the S and P by six

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Speaker 2: point seven percent within a day of posting results, the

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Speaker 2: most since twenty twenty. I found that to be really interesting.

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Speaker 2: I had noticed the dispariting effect there, So victoria though

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Speaker 2: despite earnings, we have seen rotation into European equities. Do

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Speaker 2: we think that that actually continues or the US exceptionalism

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Speaker 2: theme rains.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not surprised that we've seen this switch.

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Speaker 9: I mean, I know all morning long, we've had the

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Speaker 9: conversation around valuation, right, and if it's still something that

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Speaker 9: people are looking at, clients aren't asking about it. You've

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Speaker 9: talked with Bob Dall, my CEO Mike Wilson earlier this

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Speaker 9: morning talking about that. But valuations in Europe are much

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Speaker 9: lower than what we're seeing in the markets here. So

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Speaker 9: I think as investors say, where can I get maybe

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Speaker 9: a bigger bang for my buck, and you're looking at

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Speaker 9: that valuation number makes sense, especially in the financials. Financials

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Speaker 9: are doing well globally, so it gives you an opportunity

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Speaker 9: to get in there. And you also have to start

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Speaker 9: thinking from an FX perspective what that's going.

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Speaker 4: To look like.

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Speaker 9: Are you going to see continued rate cuts from the

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Speaker 9: ECB and what does that mean for the euro and

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Speaker 9: what kind of carry trade we're looking there? Obviously the

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Speaker 9: yen carry trade people are starting to watch once again.

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Speaker 9: So I think there's a lot of different factors, but

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Speaker 9: it wouldn't hurt to kind of dip your toe a

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Speaker 9: little bit internationally though, I still think globally you'll see

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Speaker 9: the US over time.

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Speaker 4: Continue to be the strongest economy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm glad you you brought up international investing. Is

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Speaker 3: I'm just looking at an email I got from Torston

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Speaker 3: Slocket from Apollo this morning talking about the market capitalization

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Speaker 3: with how the gap between the US and the rest

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Speaker 3: of the developed world is widening, so that concentration in

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Speaker 3: the US equity markets rerolled through the rest of the

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Speaker 3: world is just getting more and more. To what extent

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Speaker 3: is that a concern.

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Speaker 9: Well, concentration is always a concern for US, Paul, because

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Speaker 9: you don't want to, you know, to use the old phrase,

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Speaker 9: you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket.

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Speaker 9: What we're starting to see in the US is some

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Speaker 9: of those elements where all that concentration was those Max

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Speaker 9: seven names. You're starting to see pullbacks in those names,

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Speaker 9: and hopefully we will see things broaden out.

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Speaker 4: But it really hasn't been as strong as a lot

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Speaker 4: of people thought it would be.

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Speaker 9: When you're looking at the other four hundred and ninety three,

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Speaker 9: I mean, you look the SMP making it's high last week,

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Speaker 9: but the advanced decline line for the New York Stock

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Speaker 9: Exchange did.

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Speaker 4: Not meet it and go to a highlight.

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Speaker 9: That we're still only seeing about fifty three percent of

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Speaker 9: the SMP above it's fifty day moving average, So we're

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Speaker 9: not seeing that broadening out that we like to see

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Speaker 9: for a sustainable move higher in the markets.

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Speaker 4: Will continue to watch that.

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Speaker 9: But we really want to see that concentration start to

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Speaker 9: diminish a little bit and have more of a widespread

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Speaker 9: uptrend in these names.

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Speaker 2: Does any of that include say, small and midcaps.

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Speaker 10: Well, we would hope so right small and midcaps is

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Speaker 10: really kind of what will tell us, Yes, we have

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Speaker 10: found our footing, we're feeling better, we like what's going on.

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Speaker 9: But look, we've seen yields move lower even though inflation

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Speaker 9: expectations have moved higher. So to me, that's saying, okay, wait,

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Speaker 9: these are growth concerns that we have right now. If

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Speaker 9: growth and the concern over a lack of growth is

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Speaker 9: what's pulling yields down, that's not going to be great

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Speaker 9: for small and midcaps. And we also have to look

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Speaker 9: at the fact that you know, we're hanging in around

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Speaker 9: that four forty four to fifty level on the US tenure.

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Speaker 9: We've got about a third of all corporate debt in

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Speaker 9: the US small, mid and large cap coming due over

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Speaker 9: the next five years. That's going to be a concern

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Speaker 9: for those small and midcaps when it comes to refinancing.

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Speaker 9: So we'll have to see what happens there. But for

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Speaker 9: right now, I think we continue to wait on some

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Speaker 9: of those small cap names until they get some better

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Speaker 9: footing and we see the economy on its way back up.

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Speaker 3: Victoria thirty seconds. What's the fixed income call here?

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Speaker 9: Well, look, we've been doing Barbell strategies in our fixed

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Speaker 9: income portfolio. Is really wanting to capture some of the

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Speaker 9: higher yields on the shorter end. As we think the

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Speaker 9: Fed stays higher longer, that keeps those short rates higher,

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Speaker 9: and we have seen inflation push the longer end up

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Speaker 9: as well, although over the last.

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Speaker 4: Couple weeks there's been a flattening.

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Speaker 9: So I think maybe lock in a little bit of

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Speaker 9: these rates on the longer end, take advantage of the

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Speaker 9: short end, and we'll let the belly of the curve

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Speaker 9: adjust to the volatility that we've seen.

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Speaker 3: Victoria, thank you so much for joining us. Always appreciate

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Speaker 3: getting a few minutes of your time. Victoria Frenendez, chief

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Speaker 3: market strategist for cross Mark, a global investment She's based

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Speaker 3: down there in Houston, Texas.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live

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Speaker 1: weekdays at ten am Eastern on Applecarplay and Android Auto

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Speaker 1: with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

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Speaker 3: Musk Federal work or Order divides Trump Administration. Elon Musk

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Speaker 3: demanded that over two million federal employees submit five bullet

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Speaker 3: points accounting for the past week, but he's getting some

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Speaker 3: pushback from some of the folks that lead these departments,

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Speaker 3: like the FBI, like the Secretary of Defense. Let's check

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Speaker 3: in with Max Chaffckin. He covers all this stuff. He

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Speaker 3: does all the Elon Musk stuff for Bloomberg News. Is

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Speaker 3: this kind of the first cracks I'm actually from Elon

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Speaker 3: Musk with his and his heavy handed dog, I'd.

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Speaker 6: Say it's the most significant cracks that we've seen. You know,

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Speaker 6: we've seen like little maybe micro fissures or something before.

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Speaker 6: But in terms of you have Musk over the weekend

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Speaker 6: for sending this email out or having this email sent

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Speaker 6: be sent out, and then tweeting essentially NonStop about how

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Speaker 6: important it is, how easy it is, how anyone who

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Speaker 6: doesn't respond, you know, doesn't deserve their job. Meanwhile, as

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Speaker 6: you said, important parts of the federal government either saying

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Speaker 6: publicly or semi publicly, like in an all staff memo,

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Speaker 6: that they should not respond to these emails. That is

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Speaker 6: significant and that I think you really see first of all,

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Speaker 6: the extent to which you know there are probably going

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Speaker 6: to be limits to what Elon Musk can do no

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Speaker 6: matter what Donald Trump says. And also, as you see

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Speaker 6: these sort of stronger personalities, people like Cash Bettel, the

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Speaker 6: new director of the FBI, get into their positions. They

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Speaker 6: are also going to be power centers, and they are

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Speaker 6: going to potentially push back or even challenge Elon Musk

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Speaker 6: oft times.

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Speaker 2: We wouldn't it all just take President Trump to call

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Speaker 2: up the naysayers and be like, no, what Elon says goes.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: It's not totally clear what Trump wants here, although Trump

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Speaker 6: did did do a truth social message essentially saying I

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Speaker 6: want Elon Musk to be even more aggressive exactly, and

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Speaker 6: Musk has taken that as permission, but Trump has not

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Speaker 6: explicitly endorsed this. Uh. My sense is anyway, that that

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Speaker 6: Trump wants Elon to be the bulldog here, right, and and.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps also take the heat at the same time exactly.

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Speaker 6: Maybe maybe you know, move the Overton window or whatever,

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Speaker 6: make some of make some of these more extreme uh measures,

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Speaker 6: extreme reforms, uh you know, attacks on the quote unquote

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Speaker 6: administrative state, as conservatives call it, more palatable, more politically palatable.

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Speaker 6: While while as he said, Alex not attracting the heat himself,

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Speaker 6: allowing Musk uh and also his cabinet appointees to sort

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Speaker 6: of fight it out even in public. Max.

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Speaker 3: In addition to being a Bloomberg BusinessWeek senior reporter, you're

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Speaker 3: also the co host of Elon Inc. The podcast about

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Speaker 3: Elon the people you talk to with this podcast. Is

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Speaker 3: there any kind of consensus about how long Elon Musk

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Speaker 3: and President Trump will co exist peacefully before maybe these

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Speaker 3: two large egos kind of start butting heads and it

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Speaker 3: may blow up to some extent.

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Speaker 6: You know, early on in the Trump presidency, you saw

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Speaker 6: people who were who had sort of covered Trump, were

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Speaker 6: close to Trump world, more skeptical about Musk. Right, see

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Speaker 6: the fact that Trump has over the years had these

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Speaker 6: people who kind of come into the center of his world,

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Speaker 6: often these business figures who briefly have a run and

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Speaker 6: are then forced out or end up in public disputes.

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Speaker 6: You know, Anthony Scaramucci, the short lived Press secretary, being

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Speaker 6: kind of the most famous example of this. I have been,

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Speaker 6: I'd say more optimistic that Elon Musk and down Trump

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Speaker 6: will last. And that's partly because Elon Musk has showed

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Speaker 6: and it showed again and again that as you know,

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Speaker 6: as much as we think of Musk as having this

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Speaker 6: big ego, he has been willing to kind of play

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Speaker 6: second fiddle to Trump. We saw those that kind of

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Speaker 6: relationship on the Sean Hannity Show last week where he

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Speaker 6: had Trump kind of cutting in at times, essentially telling Elan,

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Speaker 6: I'll speak for you. So so he has been more

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Speaker 6: willing than usual to sort of, you know, play play

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Speaker 6: second fiddle to Trump, to embrace Trump kind of fully

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Speaker 6: rather than trying to create a distance. And then the

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Speaker 6: other thing is Musk has real leverage over Trump, more

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Speaker 6: leverage than any of these other business guys have. He

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Speaker 6: is he was the biggest donor to the in the

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Speaker 6: twenty twenty four cycle and is a potential mega donor

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Speaker 6: in the midterm. So if as Trump looks to kind

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Speaker 6: of rein in contain influence a Congress that is potentially

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Speaker 6: going to be very difficult to influence, Musk is probably

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Speaker 6: the most important set that he has because Musk can say, hey,

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Speaker 6: if you don't support this nominee, if you don't support

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Speaker 6: this budget, I am going to primary you, And that

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Speaker 6: is going to be a credible threat. And we've seen

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Speaker 6: Musk do that already. I think we're going to see

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Speaker 6: him do more of that.

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Speaker 2: And just to the point we were talking about it,

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Speaker 2: in the newsroom earlier that like, all the negative vibes

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Speaker 2: are on Musk right now, not Trump, even if they

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Speaker 2: believe the same thing.

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Speaker 9: That's like a really lovely foil.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, yes, I think I think you're right, and I

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Speaker 6: think that Trump has you know, it's hard to know

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Speaker 6: like what he's doing. What's you know, definitely strategy and

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Speaker 6: what are just tactics or whatever. But it does seem

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Speaker 6: like one of the results of this approach is that

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Speaker 6: Musk is becoming more unpopular for some of these things,

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Speaker 6: and Trump is kind of not necessarily touched by it,

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Speaker 6: right He's people are mad at Musk for sending these

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Speaker 6: aggressive emails, or for firing federal workers, or for you know,

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Speaker 6: defunding charities that they know about, They're not necessarily taking

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Speaker 6: it out on Trump. I guess the risk here for

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Speaker 6: Trump is that he becomes like must become just so controversial. Yes,

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Speaker 6: And he's also just as we saw during the appearance

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Speaker 6: at Seapack, you know, he's potentially erratic. He potentially on

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Speaker 6: any given day, any given hour, he can make himself

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Speaker 6: the story. And again, once you start getting to more

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Speaker 6: tense things, for instance, negotiations of the budget that are

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Speaker 6: coming or in Ukraine or whatever. You can imagine that

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Speaker 6: stuff creating lots of risk and problems for Trump.

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Speaker 2: All right, Max, really appreciate it, really wonderful stuff. Max

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Speaker 2: sat Chafkin, Bloomberg BusinessWeek, Senior reporter, co host of Elon Inc.

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Speaker 4: Podcast.

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