1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. One afternoon, I 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: was listening to Derek DelGaudio, a master of sleight of hand, 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: on NPR. He talked about secrets, their weight, their heft. 4 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: He talked about how carrying them affects your breathing, your speech, 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: your movements. You have to remember who knows what. You 6 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: have to remember which versions of the stories you've told 7 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: and to whom and when. If you tell the truth, 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: there's nothing to keep straight, nothing to work at. The 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: truth isn't easy, but it's simple. What I wanted from 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: my husband was the truth. I asked for it, and 11 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: I waited for it, and eventually I stopped waiting. What 12 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: I was given was something different. It was shaped like, 13 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: It's not what you think. It held the weight of 14 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: You don't understand. How did I not see the heft? 15 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: How did I not hear it? The question I keep 16 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: asking myself is the same question we ask about someone 17 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: who's good at sleight of hand? How did he do that? 18 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 2: That's Maggie Smith, poet, writer, editor, and teacher. Maggie's is 19 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: a story about secrecy and betrayal, deep inner knowing, groundedness, 20 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 2: and grace. Ultimately, It's the story of a woman coming 21 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 2: into her own. This episode was recorded in front of 22 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 2: a live audience at the Miami Book Fair at Miami 23 00:01:47,600 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 2: Dade College in Miami, Florida. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this 24 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: is Family Secrets. The secrets that are kept from us, 25 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 2: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 26 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 2: keep from ourselves. So much of your story has to 27 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 2: do with the secrets that we keep from ourselves. There 28 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 2: are other kinds of secrets within it, too, But that 29 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: feeling of knowing and yet not being able to apprehend, 30 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: not being able to quite touch what's really happening, because 31 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: it's too scary, it's too frightening. 32 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 3: It's too dangerous. 33 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 4: But I want to start way back at the very beginning. 34 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 4: But the question that I always start with in Family Secrets, 35 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,679 Speaker 4: which is tell me about the landscape of your childhood. 36 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 4: There's a line in your book which is, if you 37 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 4: opened me up, you'd find Ohio. 38 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: It's true, Yeah, the heart of it all, I'll live 39 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: in my hometown. Basically, I grew up in central Ohio, 40 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: in the Columbus, Ohio area. I'm the oldest of three girls. 41 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: I have two younger sisters each two years apart, so 42 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: we're stairsteps. My parents still live in the house I 43 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: grew up in, and I have Sunday dinner there every Sunday, 44 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: except when I'm at the Miami Book Fair and I 45 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: won't make it back in time for Sunday dinners. I 46 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: had honestly a really traditional, blissfully boring childhood. You know, 47 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: I was born in seventy seven. I'm a gen xer. 48 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: I grew up in the eighties, your parents being able 49 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: to reach you when you were out playing, so we 50 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: would just sort of leave on our bikes in the morning, 51 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: come back at meals kind of scuffed up, and that 52 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: was pretty much it. I was bookish, as you can 53 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: probably imagine, an introverted, and when I wasn't playing with 54 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: my friends, I was either reading, listening to music, or 55 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: doing jigsaw puzzles in my bedroom. I was not cool. 56 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 3: It's so much better to get cooler later, wasn't it. 57 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I definitely did not peak early, let's 58 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: just put it that way. 59 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 4: So when you were in that sort of blissfully boring 60 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 4: childhood and this very stable kind of extended family family situation, 61 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 4: how did the feeling of that stability impact you as 62 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 4: a child. 63 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: Honestly, I think it was just sort of the air 64 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: I breathed and the water I swam in, So I 65 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: don't think I recognized it as anything special. Now, as 66 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: an adult, I realized there's a sort of novelty to 67 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: having almost my entire extended family live in the same place, 68 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: and to all get together, and to have dinners thirteen 69 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: people on the weekends. It's not the norm. I think 70 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: it's not very twenty first century for sure, and maybe 71 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: not very twentieth century in a lot of ways. But 72 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: at the time it didn't seem strange to me, and 73 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: in fact, it probably didn't prepare me well for what 74 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: my own adult life would would look like. 75 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 4: Did you ever think about leaving or did you always 76 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 4: know that you would stay in Ohio? 77 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: I tried. I guess I would like to be like, no, 78 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: I'm so rooted. I never wanted to leave. 79 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 3: I did. 80 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: I considered MFA programs very far away from home, and 81 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: then a fellowship kept me, kept me in Columbus at 82 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: Ohio State, and since then, you know how it is. 83 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: You stay someplace and you meet someone, and then you 84 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: have kids, and then they're in school and then you 85 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: have a mortgage, and then your parents start aging, and 86 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: so I don't think when I was twenty, I didn't 87 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: really necessarily imagine my self living in Columbus, Ohio when 88 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: I was forty six, But here I am. I met 89 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: my husband at Ohio Wesleyan actually, which is where I 90 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: went to undergrad. I would have been nineteen or twenty. 91 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 3: And you were both in a creative writing workshop, that's right. 92 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: I think we had a couple of other classes together 93 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: in the English department before that class, but that was 94 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: the sort of smallest seminar, and that was around the 95 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: time that we became good friends. 96 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 4: And did you both know that you wanted futures as 97 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 4: writers at that point? 98 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: I knew when I was in college that I always 99 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: wanted to write, and then I probably always would because 100 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 1: I had been doing it for, you know, five or 101 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: six years already, and it didn't seem like something I 102 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: could quit even if I wanted to. I didn't know 103 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: what my work would be, though, and in my mind 104 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 1: it was still pretty separate. I need to find a 105 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: job in the world eventually, and also I'm going to 106 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: be a writer, and it's still kind of strange to me. 107 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: That those things have braided together in the ways that 108 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: they have, and I don't know what he thought he 109 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: was going to do. 110 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 3: It's interesting. 111 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 4: I mean, being a writer is something that we are, 112 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 4: not something that we aim for. 113 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 3: It's not a career choice. I think. 114 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 4: I don't think there's a writer out there who would say, 115 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 4: you know, when they were a little kid, that they 116 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 4: knew that they were going to build their life toward that, 117 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 4: because how do you know how to do that? 118 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: That seems terribly impractical. I'm a Midwesterner. That's not something 119 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: we do. 120 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 4: So in a way, it sounds like you initially replicate 121 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:53,239 Speaker 4: that kind of solid family history by choosing the person 122 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 4: that you were going to be with very young, you know, 123 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 4: very young for your generation, and sticking sticking to him. 124 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 125 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: I mean I really did think that what I was 126 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: building would end up looking a lot like what my 127 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: parents had in some ways and probably not in others, 128 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: because I'm not my mother. 129 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 3: Tell me a little bit about your mother. 130 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, she's a firecracker. I love my mom. 131 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: My mom is someone I talked to almost every day. 132 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: She married my dad when she was twenty had me 133 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: at twenty four. My sister at twenty six, my other 134 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: sister at twenty eight. She was a stay at home 135 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: mom until we were old enough to get off the 136 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: school bus and get ourselves into the house, and so 137 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: she went back to work at some point, but even 138 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: then she was still the mom. So if I was sick, 139 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: she took care of me. If I needed food, she 140 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: made it, If there was laundry to be done, Mom 141 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: was the person you TalkTalk to. You if you need 142 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: a permission for something, you clear it with Mom. She 143 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: was sort of the CEO. And my dad went to 144 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: work every day and was sort of probably blissfully unaware 145 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: of most of what was going on. And so if 146 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: I wanted to do something I wasn't supposed to do, 147 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: I'd ask Dad, right like Mom probably wouldn't say no 148 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: because she knows, but Dad doesn't know, so maybe Dad'll 149 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: clear me for this. So he was, I mean, hilarious 150 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: and I'm very close to my dad, but a very 151 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: classic arrangement where the caretaking was very much my mother's 152 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: job and not my father's. Like I don't think he 153 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: changed a diaper until he had grandkids, and that was 154 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: a big deal when he finally did. 155 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 4: But when you say that you imagined a life that 156 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 4: was somewhat like your mom's but not But you're not 157 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 4: your mom. I think part of what we're talking about 158 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 4: here is that your mom really wanted That was what 159 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 4: she wanted. Yes, that was that she wanted to be 160 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 4: a wife and a mom and to raise this family. 161 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 4: And so there was nothing conflicted about that. 162 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: No, nothing conflicted at all. I mean, if you asked 163 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: my mom today, what did you want to be when 164 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: you grew up, she would say a mom and she 165 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: got to do it. So there wasn't that kind of 166 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 1: push and pull. And when she went back to work, 167 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: it was because she needed to and because we were 168 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: at school all day. But it wasn't because she had 169 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: some grand design on a career. You know, she's recently 170 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: retired and is so happy hanging out with her girlfriends 171 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: during the day and like traveling and doing all these things. 172 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: And I wish she had just been able to do 173 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: more of that. But yeah, I thought I could copy 174 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: paste my childhood into my home and have a completely 175 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: different kind of career. By the time my mom had 176 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: three kids at twenty eight, and I had just published 177 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: my first book to finish graduate school and didn't have 178 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: kids and was just getting married then. So the idea 179 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: that I could just replicate that template and sort of 180 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: overlay it on my life all these years later now 181 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: seems a little naive, But at the time I was like, sure, 182 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: it can look exactly like that, except I'll be doing 183 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: all these other things too. 184 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: Right. 185 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 4: Well, it's such a classic and such a relatable story, 186 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 4: I think that because how else do we know, right, 187 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 4: I mean, we can only know what we were raised 188 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 4: with and what our hopes and dreams might be. And 189 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 4: why can't we quote unquote have it all? 190 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: Have it all? 191 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: Maggie and her husband embark on their lives together. She 192 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 2: finishes graduate school, he goes to law school. Maggie's first 193 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: book comes out, and they move into a house painted 194 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: the very optimistic color of Perrywinkle blue. 195 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: I just actually painted the house charcoal gray. It's not 196 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: Perrywinkle anymore. So it's like now it's sort of memorialized 197 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: as a Periwinkle house. 198 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:11,479 Speaker 3: There's a metaphor in there somewhere. 199 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: Isn't there. Yeah, And there's a metaphor in everything. 200 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: True. 201 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 4: Tell me about the search for the house, because you 202 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 4: write about that in this book, And there's something that's 203 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 4: so lovely and hopeful about looking for the place that 204 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 4: you're going to just start your life as a young adult. 205 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 206 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 1: I think my daughter Violet was one when we were 207 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: looking for houses because we'd been renting and the woman 208 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: we were renting from was putting the house on the 209 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,599 Speaker 1: market and we couldn't afford to buy that house. It 210 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: was big Victorian and German village in this historic neighborhood, 211 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: and so we thought, Okay, now we have to buy 212 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: the house in the school district where we think we're 213 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: going to send her to kindergarten, even though she's one, 214 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: because that's how you do it, right, you do the thing. 215 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: And I thought, well, I still want to live in 216 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: a walkable neighborhood because all these years we've lived in 217 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: neighborhoods we can walk to a bookstore, a coffee shop, 218 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: a post office. You know. I didn't want to replicate 219 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: that part of my childhood and be out in the 220 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: suburbs and have to get in the car to go anywhere. 221 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: And so it came down to two things. One, we 222 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: visited this house on this street, and the house is 223 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: a very beloved money pit that I continue to work 224 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: on year after year earmarking and moving things around, like 225 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: is it the bathroom year or the roof year. But 226 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: I was completely charmed by it because there are like 227 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: thirty four windows in my house. It's all glass. The 228 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: whole street is a tunnel of sycamores or London plane trees, 229 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: which are kind of cousins, and in the summer they 230 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: make this arch of green and so it looks like 231 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: you're driving down this tunnel of trees. And it seems like, 232 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: of course, such a poetic thing to do to buy 233 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: a money pit of a house on a street with 234 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: a tunnel of sycamore trees. But that's exactly what we did. 235 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: And we also chose that house because it's Caddy corner 236 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: across the street from one of my best friends. I 237 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: love the house. It's just home. It's a constant project, 238 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: but there's lots of light and lots of trees and 239 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: friendly dogs and then albino squirrel. And I know it 240 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: sounds like I'm snow white. It's not that ucolic. You know. 241 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: Things are constantly breaking, but I love it. 242 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 2: We'll be right back. Prior to this big hopeful move, 243 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 2: Maggie and her husband are still renting their home in 244 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 2: German Village when Violet is born. After Violet's birth, Maggie 245 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 2: has an extremely difficult time. She doesn't even realize what 246 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: plagues her postpartum depression until she has it for the 247 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 2: second time years later. 248 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: I had pretty serious postpartum depression after Violet was born, 249 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: and we lived in the house in German Village then, 250 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: and I was just a shell of a human being. 251 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: I actually cut my maternity leave short because I couldn't 252 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: cope anymore. I actually chose to go back and sit 253 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: in a cubicle to just have a different kind of 254 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: day than I was having with a colicky child feeling 255 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: that bad. 256 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 4: So I wonder, Maggie, you know, is in not knowing, 257 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 4: which I think is so true of people who are 258 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 4: suffering from something that they haven't experienced before. The instinct 259 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 4: is to think it's my baby's colloquy, or I'm impatient, 260 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 4: or there must be something wrong with me that I'm 261 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 4: not handling this better, and not to go to the 262 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 4: place of self compassion of maybe there really is something 263 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 4: going on that isn't my fault. 264 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right. I remember at one point, 265 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: and maybe it was my mother or one of my 266 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: sisters said, you don't talk about any of this with 267 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: any joy. You seem miserable and stressed out. And I mean, 268 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: granted I wasn't sleeping, but no parent sleeps, and a 269 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: lot of them still seem okay. And it didn't occur 270 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: to me that the way I was feeling was any 271 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: different from what anyone else was feeling. And one of them, 272 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: I remember, said to me, you need to go to 273 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: your doctor, like this isn't normal to feel this way, 274 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: and I remember saying something like there's no pill for 275 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: no sleep and a baby with acid reflux and colic 276 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: and a dairy allergy, like that's just my life and 277 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: there's nothing that anyone can do to make it any different. 278 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: But of course that was me speaking from a place 279 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: of not being well. And I know now that no, 280 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: those material aspects of my life would not have changed, 281 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: and probably if I had taken a bit of something 282 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: prescribed to me by a medical professional, I would have 283 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 1: been able to manage those bits better, because I then did. 284 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: When my son was. 285 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 3: Born, and that was also a year of not writing. 286 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: It was a whole year of not writing, and I 287 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 1: think about that, I'm like, well, no wonder I was depressed. 288 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: I had a baby. It didn't go the way I 289 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: thought it would. I thought, where's my bundle of joy? 290 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: This child screams at me all the time. I feel 291 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: like screaming all the time, but have the decency not to. 292 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: The poems are not happening. My husband is in law school, 293 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: and that's very demanding on his time. Even having family support, 294 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: even being in a place where I had lots of 295 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: people checking on me and coming over, bringing soup and 296 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 1: doing all the things. I couldn't get to a place 297 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: where anything was cooking up there for a year. 298 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 4: Which is a vicious cycle, right, because I think for writers, 299 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 4: for poets, that feeling of It's one of my favorite 300 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 4: quotes from Joan Didion in her essay y I write, 301 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 4: if I had the remotest access to my own mind, 302 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 4: I never would have become a writer. 303 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 3: I write in order to understand. 304 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 4: What I think, what I feel, what I fear. And 305 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 4: there's no other path, there's no other way to get 306 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 4: at that. So to be feeling all that and not 307 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 4: have the tool to not be the instrument of being 308 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 4: able to do that kind of work is just a 309 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 4: prescription for disaster. 310 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think about that now. And I'm like, why 311 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: wasn't I even journaling through that time? And I really wasn't. 312 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: The only writing I think I even have to this 313 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: day from that first year are lists, like nerotic lists 314 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: of when she slept or didn't sleep, what she ate, 315 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 1: and how much the color of her poop, because this 316 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,719 Speaker 1: is what we do with newborns, you know. I just 317 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: was sort of like looking for patterns in anything she did, 318 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: thinking that if I can just find this pattern that, 319 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: like if she eats this and this, then she'll sleep, 320 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: if she does this and this, if I do this 321 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 1: then this, looking for some way to make sense of 322 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: it all. And it was just lists and charts and 323 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: nothing of any import really. 324 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 4: You know, in reading your book, I was experiencing it 325 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 4: as this kind of slow erosion of identity, of intimacy, 326 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 4: of both intimacy in your marriage but intimacy with yourself. 327 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 328 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 4: So there's this, there's this period of which you go 329 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 4: through this postpartum depression. Then you move into the Periwinkle 330 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 4: House and you suffer two miscarriages. Yeah, in trying to 331 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 4: have another child and for Violet to have a sibling. 332 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, And of course I didn't know until after my 333 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: son was born, and I had postpartum depression again. I thought, 334 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: what are the odds? And he was colicky again and 335 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: had asked reflux, and I thought, what are the odds 336 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: that lightning will strike twice? Surely it will be different 337 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 1: the second time. And it was not. And I only 338 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: found out later that, you know, miscarriage is a huge 339 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: sort of predisposing condition for postpartum because of course it is. 340 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: I mean, being pregnant three times in a year and 341 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: a half does pretty wild things to your hormones and 342 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: also your grieving and terrified, and so the even the 343 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: sort of joy of pregnancy of even finally getting pregnant 344 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: and thinking is this going to stick? Is this going 345 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: to happen? I never relaxed that entire you know, ten months, 346 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: I never relaxed. Every day I woke up and thought, 347 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: this is the day. There's not going to be a heartbeat, 348 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: this is the day. There's going to be blood, this 349 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: is the day. And so it really it changed me 350 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: in ways I probably can't even articulate or understand myself. 351 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: It made me a very fearful person. I didn't trust 352 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: my body, and I didn't trust my mind. You know, 353 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: I didn't know what kind of mom I would be 354 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: the second time around, because I knew what happened the 355 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: first time, and so when rhet was born, it didn't 356 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: take very long for things to go downhill. And the 357 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: difference was I went to the doctor and it got better. 358 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: And that also gave me a little bit of regret 359 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: I would say about what didn't happen the first time, 360 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: because I thought, God, I didn't have to feel that way. 361 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: I didn't have to go through that. 362 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 4: There's a point where you realize that you become more 363 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 4: mom than wife. And it was also a period. You 364 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 4: didn't write this, but it was my sense that you 365 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 4: became more mom than poet, more mom than Maggie. 366 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: Yes, that became my primary identity. And I think there 367 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: are probably people listening who can relate to that sort 368 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 1: of eclipsing of the self that happens, particularly when your 369 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: children are small and need you for everything, including food, 370 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: like you are the person keeping them alive, and that 371 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: kind of daily, ongoing responsibility sort of shoves everything else 372 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: into the margins of the page, I suppose, And of 373 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: course I think this happens in marriages. You know some 374 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: of the and I you know, I think in general 375 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: my writing and my children are the greatest blessings of 376 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: my life. I feel both of them are sort of 377 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: miraculous to me. I in some ways have no idea 378 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: how that all happened. I mean, I know how it happened, 379 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: but I really in some ways don't. Like these human 380 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: beings live here now in my house and have their 381 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: own personalities in their own lives, and these pieces of 382 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 1: writing like come to me, like occur to me, and 383 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: then grow and unfold, and all of this still seems 384 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: very much like magic to me. That the greatest blessings 385 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: of my life. And I think they're also the things 386 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: that were hardest on my partnership in a lot of ways, 387 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: and probably because of the demands on my time right 388 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: and not just but bandwidth. 389 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: During these years of young motherhood when Maggie's kids are little, 390 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 2: she has a job as an editor. Her husband is 391 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 2: working long hours as an associate in a law firm. 392 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 2: There's not a lot of time for her real work, 393 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 2: which is writing poems. She writes whenever she can grab 394 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: the time, in coffee shops, late at night, in the 395 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 2: school pickup line, the car. One day, when Violet and 396 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 2: Redd are seven and three, Maggie writes a poem titled 397 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 2: good Bones, and that poem changes everything. 398 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: I had a preschooler who was going off to part 399 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: time preschool a couple days a week where I could 400 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: get a little writing done, and I think I was 401 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 1: in either kindergarten or first grade at that point, so 402 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: she was gone all day so I could get a 403 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: little bit more done. I was working from home. I 404 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: had quit my job and was freelancing, so I was 405 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: still working as an editor, but I was doing it 406 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: from my house, so as long as Rhett was at preschool, 407 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: I had a little bit of space. And that's around 408 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: the time that I wrote Good Bones. 409 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 4: It also strikes me that good Bones, as is true 410 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 4: of other of your poems, is about being a mother. 411 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 4: It was the gift of being a mother meets the 412 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 4: gift of being a poet. 413 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: I couldn't have written that poem without them. Really, anything 414 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: I've written since they were born, I couldn't have written 415 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: without them, in part because some of it's actually collaborative work, 416 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: like they will give me the idea, they will give 417 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: me a line of dialogue or a metaphor. But also 418 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: they've changed who I am as a person. So the 419 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: work that comes out of me since they've been in 420 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: the world is work that they made possible, which is 421 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: pretty wild to think about. 422 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is and beautiful. 423 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: Thanks kids, I'll forgive you that colic. Yeah, they're like, 424 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: where's our allowance? Where are the residuals? Mom? Good Bones 425 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: was published online in June of twenty sixteen. I had 426 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 1: submitted it the year before it was rejected a few places. 427 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: A journal named Waxwing picked it up, and then they 428 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,959 Speaker 1: did what journals do, which is slated for later publication. 429 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: So I don't even think I knew exactly when it 430 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: was coming out. It was just like spring or summer 431 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 1: of next year, so I forgot about it. It came 432 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: out that week in June, and that was the week 433 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 1: of the Pulse nightclub massacre, and that same week in 434 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: England Brexit madness was picking up, and a member of Parliament, 435 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: Joe Cox, who was a young mother of young children herself, 436 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: was murdered in northern England that same week, and so 437 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,719 Speaker 1: the poem was published online, not in a print magazine. 438 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: And because it was published online the week that two 439 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: terrible things happened and two different continents, people started sharing 440 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: it and I it just absolutely caught and took off 441 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: in ways that I mean. I was pushing a stroller 442 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 1: around my neighborhood and the BBC was reaching out. I 443 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: didn't have an agent, I didn't have media training. I 444 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: just had a cell phone, and like a non napping 445 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: three year old, I really didn't know what to do 446 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: with it. It was the strangest lightning strike still really 447 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: of my life. 448 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 4: And it just kept building and building. At one point, 449 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 4: you're told that Meryl Streep read it at a benefit. 450 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. I found that out because my now friend say 451 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: Joe tweeted, like, Yo, Maggie, Meryl Streep just read good 452 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: Bones at the Academy of American Poets gala at Lincoln Center. 453 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 1: And I had walked into my house and looked at 454 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 1: my phone and thought, I'm sorry, who did what? I'm 455 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: sure actually that was a lot more colorful language that 456 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 1: was used, but I was like, I'm sorry, my words 457 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: were in MARYL. Streep's perfect mouth, in that voice. I 458 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: mean again, I'm a poet, working a regular job, parenting 459 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: two kids, living in Central Ohio. Like, I just can't 460 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: stress enough how outside of the literary world I felt 461 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: it was incredibly bizarre and then it was on Madam's Secretary, Right, Yeah, 462 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: I mean. 463 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 3: It was just it took on a life of its own. 464 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: It took on a life of its own, and I 465 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: would meet people and they would say, oh my gosh, 466 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: I love your poem, and I had the sense not 467 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: to say which one, but it became. I mean, I 468 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: joke now that it's hard to give a reading and 469 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: not read Good Bones because it's kind of my free bird. Right. 470 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 4: What was it like in your marriage during that time? 471 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 4: You do at one point write that your marriage was 472 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 4: never the same after that, meaning after the viral sensation 473 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 4: of Good Bones. 474 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, that poem changed my life in both beautiful and 475 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: terrible ways, which is funny because the poem itself is 476 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: about the world being sort of equal parts beautiful and terrible, 477 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: and the impact that that poem had on my life 478 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: was equal parts beautiful and terrible. 479 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 3: It had a. 480 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,479 Speaker 1: Beautiful impact on my writing life and a pretty terrible 481 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: impact on my personal life. Maybe it's just that the 482 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: sudden attention and the sort of invitation or opportunity to 483 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: lean into my writing life and to spend more time 484 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: on writing, and maybe that was the crux. You know, 485 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: suddenly I can come to a book festival. Suddenly I'm 486 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: getting invited to go to a university to give a 487 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: reading or teach for a week someplace. Suddenly I had 488 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: a lecture agent, you know, who would help get me 489 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: speaking engagements or send me around the country or the 490 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: world to get to be a writer in the world, 491 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: not just at my local Starbucks between naps. It was 492 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: such a blessing, but it also meant as a primary caregiver, 493 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: not being available all the time, right, and needing to 494 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: kind of recalibrate some things in my relationship to say, like, hey, okay, 495 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: kind of like my mom was a stay at home 496 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: mom for a while, right, and then eventually she went 497 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: back to work. But she did that by choice because 498 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: we weren't sort of in her hair as much anymore. 499 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: I still had at least one child who was very 500 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: young at the time and who was not in full 501 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: time daycare, and so getting away was a lot of 502 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: a kind of a logistical nightmare for me Personally. 503 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 4: You were going to be the primary caregiver and write 504 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 4: your poems on the side, and you know, this was 505 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 4: sort of the shape of your life that suddenly got disrupted. 506 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, this wasn't the deal, right, This wasn't the deal, 507 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: Like the deal was one of us goes to work 508 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: and the other one works but also manages the children. 509 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: And if that's not happening, then that's not the deal. 510 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: And I think that's part of the strain. And yet 511 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: when I think about it, if I'm really honest with 512 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: myself and I do try, I do try to be 513 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: I think, Okay, well, what if I had traveled for 514 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical sales. What if it had been incredibly lucrative, which frankly, 515 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: poetry isn't. What if it had taken me out of 516 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: my home on a regular basis but had nothing to 517 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: do with art making, had nothing to do with writing, 518 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: It had nothing to do with like being on stage 519 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: or signing books or doing anything that seemed fun or 520 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: attention seeking. Maybe it still would have been a problem 521 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: because it would have been an inconvenience that I don't 522 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: think it would have been the same kind of problem. 523 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: I think it was the perfect storm of a dream 524 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: being realized and not being able to sort of hold 525 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: up my end of the bargain quote unquote as far 526 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: as how much caregiving I could do on a daily basis. 527 00:32:50,200 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 528 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 2: Maggie's husband isn't prepared to do some of the caretaking 529 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 2: without her. Once, when she's at a book festival, he 530 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 2: calls to tell her she needs to come home. Rhet 531 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 2: has a fever. Maggie, more mom than poet, tries to 532 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 2: get a last minute flight home, but she can't. Her 533 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 2: husband is left to muddle through this one on his own. 534 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,719 Speaker 2: This is just one instance in which the rift between 535 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 2: Maggie and her husband deepens. Something's in the air, something's 536 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 2: not right. A while later, when Maggie is back home, 537 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 2: her family is asleep and she's awake. Downstairs, she sees 538 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 2: her husband's briefcase just sitting there. He's just come home 539 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 2: from a business trip. She's never done this before, but 540 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 2: something tells her to go over to that briefcase and 541 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 2: take a look, so she does. 542 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: I hate that I did that. It's hard to admit 543 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: that you snooped into someone else's personal belongings that didn't 544 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: belong to you. Although I don't know, I suppose if 545 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: I had an open bag in my house, which I 546 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: often do now, my kids would probably be rifling through 547 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: it for gum or post it notes. Or something. So 548 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: maybe there's not quite the expectation of privacy in a 549 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: home where you have stuff lying around all the time. 550 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 4: But you know what, snooping makes such an appearance on 551 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 4: this podcast. 552 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,439 Speaker 3: In so many as in life. 553 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 4: So many episodes, to the point where I had to 554 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 4: at a certain point thing to myself, why is this 555 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 4: constantly coming up? Does everyone just simply snoop? 556 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: Do? 557 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 3: Is it to snoop? You know, to be human as 558 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 3: to snoop? 559 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 4: I actually think when there is a secret that's somewhere 560 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 4: in in the atmosphere, that's lurking somewhere, we know it 561 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 4: without being able to sink it, and it's almost a 562 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 4: self protective thing to do. I'm not going to find 563 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 4: this out, this thing that I don't even know what 564 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 4: it is. I just know that there's something that I 565 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 4: need to know, and that seems to be the impulse. 566 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's sort of like Spidey sense, you know, 567 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: like there's just some kind of prickle that tells you 568 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: something's off. Like I don't know what it is, but 569 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,839 Speaker 1: something feels off, and likely there's no answer to the 570 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: offness in this bag, but it's here, So I'm going 571 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: to look and see if there's an answer to the offness. 572 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 3: There was, and there was. 573 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 1: There was an answer to the offness in the bag. 574 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 3: So what did you find in the bag? 575 00:35:53,800 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: I found a postcard addressed to a woman's name with 576 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: an address, so it had not been sent, like it 577 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 1: was ready to mail, but it had not been sent 578 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: in my husband's handwriting, addressed to a woman's name in 579 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: the place he had just visited and had been visiting 580 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 1: frequently for work. And then I kept looking because I thought, well, 581 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: maybe there's more glutton for punishment. And I do this. 582 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: I keep a book in my bag. I like to 583 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: have a notebook, and so did he. And so I 584 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: opened the blank book and sort of flipping through the pages, 585 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: and I flipped to the last entry and read basically 586 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: a kind of journal entry about taking a walk with 587 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: this particular person and being in her house. And so 588 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: I thought, okay, this is actually happening. And at first 589 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: I was telling myself, maybe these are ideas for like 590 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,240 Speaker 1: a piece of writing, you know, like maybe it's a 591 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: novel start or a play, or this is a short story. 592 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: Of course it was not a short story. 593 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 4: And there was also a pine cone that he had 594 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 4: brought back with him for your kids. 595 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, so Rhet likes to collect nature treasures. So on 596 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: his last business trip, he had brought a pine cone 597 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: home as a souvenir, and the postcard and the entry 598 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: both referenced the pine cone, and so then I knew 599 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 1: that the pine cone was actually something picked up with 600 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: this other individual and then brought home to our house. 601 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 3: So in that moment, what did it feel like in 602 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 3: your body? 603 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: I don't know that I was in my body. Honestly, 604 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: I have such a hazy recollection. I mean I remember 605 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: standing there, I remember finding it, I remember going upstairs 606 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,359 Speaker 1: like I have almost sort of polaroid or you know, 607 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: like flashes, almost like jump cuts in a film, but 608 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: nothing I could actually stitch together. And I'm sure that 609 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: is just protective, like we're just not gonna catalog all 610 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: of that in great detail for reasons that make perfect sense. 611 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:25,240 Speaker 4: So in that state, you went upstairs and you woke 612 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 4: him up, and. 613 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 3: What did you share with him in that moment? 614 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: I think I just yelled something like who is fill 615 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: in name on postcard? I brought up the postcard that night, 616 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: but did not tell him that I had looked in 617 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: the notebook, in part because I just really what I 618 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: wanted was for him to tell me the truth. And 619 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,439 Speaker 1: so I kind of held that back and thought, i'll 620 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: know if he's telling me the truth if he discloses, 621 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: because now I can ask questions based on what I 622 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: know from these page and if he doesn't tell me 623 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: the truth, I'll know. I mean, I watch a lot 624 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: of true crime, so I just thought, now i'll know, 625 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,919 Speaker 1: like I'm going to know if I'm being if there's 626 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,399 Speaker 1: some gas lighting here, if there's some something else going 627 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: on here. And so I didn't bring up the journal, 628 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,720 Speaker 1: and he didn't bring up the journal, and so then 629 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: I just thought, you know, we'll get to that eventually. 630 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: But the next day I did the same thing. I 631 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: repeated my actions. I went back into the bag. The 632 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: postcard was gone. Who knows, maybe it was mailed. I 633 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: really don't know. I don't know whatever happened to that. 634 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 1: And when I opened the pages of the journal, I 635 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: flipped to the last entry, and the pages were gone, 636 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: like you could see where there had been pages, and 637 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,800 Speaker 1: they had been not ripped out, but like surgically removed, 638 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: like with the exact o knife. 639 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 2: Now it's Maggie who is keeping a secret. She doesn't 640 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 2: tell her husband she's seen those pages that she knows, 641 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 2: she doesn't say anything at all. The temperature at home 642 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 2: is chili. Whenever they do communicate, it's about the kids. 643 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,240 Speaker 2: They go to couple's therapy, but even there they refrain 644 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 2: from talking about the enormous elephant in the room. Maggie 645 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,919 Speaker 2: does not tell the couple's therapist what she's found out. 646 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 2: This might be the most logical space for an issue 647 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 2: like this to surface, but still it remains buried. Instead, 648 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 2: with their therapist, they discuss all the rudimentary baseline marital tension, 649 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,240 Speaker 2: which Maggie's husband believes to be effectively her fault. 650 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: We go to counseling because I found these things. And 651 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: then in counseling we talk about that he's unhappy because 652 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: my career is taking up too much space, and I 653 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: don't bring up the fact that we're actually there for 654 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: this other reason, and we don't talk about it at all. 655 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 3: So what really struck me about that? 656 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: I'm asking because I'm just like, that's absurd. 657 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 4: Like the doubleness of the secret keeping here. So you 658 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 4: discover a secret in the form of this postcard and 659 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 4: this journal entry, and then you keep the secret your husband, 660 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 4: and you don't speak about it. You don't tell your mother, 661 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,360 Speaker 4: who you're very close to, You barely tell any friends. 662 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,399 Speaker 4: You certainly don't tell your children, and you don't tell 663 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 4: the therapist. No, what were you waiting for? Or maybe 664 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,760 Speaker 4: another way of putting it is, when we don't speak 665 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 4: of something of that magnitude, usually thrumbing underneath that is. 666 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: Fear. Fear. Yeah, I think I was trying to keep 667 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 1: it intact, and so if I didn't tell my mother 668 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,919 Speaker 1: what was going on, then she would never find out 669 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 1: what had happened. And therefore, when I I fixed it, 670 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: because I could fix it, I could fix it and 671 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 1: then she'd never have to know and it would never 672 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: affect their relationship. Because I really thought I could fix 673 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: it by fixing my own behavior. And if I fixed 674 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,759 Speaker 1: it by fixing my own behavior, then no one would 675 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 1: ever have to know, and it wouldn't ripple, and we 676 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:25,360 Speaker 1: could just go back to life being fine, and then 677 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: no one would have any hard feelings or ill will. 678 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: I didn't tell the counselor because I thought it would 679 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 1: anger him, my ex husband. I just remember thinking, I 680 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: feel like I'm holding this live grenade of all of 681 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: this knowledge, and if I speak up, it's like pulling 682 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: the pin. 683 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 3: And if I just. 684 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: Stay small and be as agreeable as possible, it breaks 685 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: my heart to say it now, Like if I just 686 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 1: make myself very sack small and acquiesced it as much 687 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,360 Speaker 1: as humanly possible and basically bargain away everything that feels 688 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: essential to me as a human being, then maybe we 689 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: can make it work and then no one has to know. 690 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,879 Speaker 4: But the thing about secrets is they won't stay. No, 691 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 4: they won't. Another guest on the podcast said something that 692 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 4: I thought was just so perfect about what it is 693 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 4: to keep a secret, which is when you bury a secret, 694 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 4: you bury it alive, right, And this thing was alive 695 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:34,760 Speaker 4: and wasn't going to go away. 696 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 1: No it was not. I mean I did get to 697 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 1: a point where eventually I realized that all of the 698 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 1: acquiescing wasn't getting me anywhere, Like it wasn't actually like 699 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: canceling speaking engagements and agreeing not to travel and being 700 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,799 Speaker 1: kind and cooking meals and taking the kids out like 701 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 1: it didn't matter. I could be the sort of best 702 00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: version of myself, or not the best version of myself, 703 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,720 Speaker 1: but the best version of myself. I thought that he wanted, 704 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: and it actually didn't change his behavior toward me, And 705 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: so I thought, why am I doing all of this 706 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:16,720 Speaker 1: for nothing? Like it just feels pointless. And it struck 707 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 1: me eventually that it wasn't going to be enough. And 708 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: I think I also came around to the idea that 709 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,839 Speaker 1: if your partner would happily let you let go of 710 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 1: things that matter a lot to you, then probably it's 711 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: not worth salvaging anyway. And so I talked to my 712 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,880 Speaker 1: mom and then finally I just unloaded one day and 713 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 1: counseling and just said, by the way, I don't know 714 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 1: why we're this is a total charade. 715 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 3: That therapist must have been dumbfounded. 716 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,720 Speaker 1: Why have you been coming in here for months taking 717 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: the blame and acting like it's all about that you're 718 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,200 Speaker 1: not enough of a stay at home parent. 719 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,360 Speaker 2: That the charade is over and done with, so is 720 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 2: the marriage. After a lengthy separation, Maggie's soon to be 721 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 2: ex husband moves in with the address see of the postcard. 722 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 2: He communicates with Maggie only by email updates. In one 723 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,279 Speaker 2: of these, he lets her know that he will be 724 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 2: moving five hundred miles away. 725 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 4: This is so much a story of the coming hole 726 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:35,719 Speaker 4: and these sharp fragments and this sort of puzzle like 727 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 4: structure of trying to come to an understanding of what happened. 728 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,280 Speaker 4: My friend Andrea Debuse a bunch of years ago, Andrea 729 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,799 Speaker 4: is talking about memoir, and he said, the question in 730 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:53,319 Speaker 4: memoir is not what happened. The question in memoir is 731 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 4: what the fuck happened? 732 00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: I like him already. 733 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, And you're asking yourself that question, right, And in 734 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 4: asking yourself that question again and again, you're doing the 735 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:13,240 Speaker 4: hard and profound work of knitting together all of yourselves 736 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,480 Speaker 4: over time. This is the work that we all have 737 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,319 Speaker 4: to do. Hopefully we do it, you know, until we 738 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 4: take our last breath. Is we're reconciling ourselves with all 739 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 4: of the different selves we've ever been. So that twenty 740 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,360 Speaker 4: year old who met that, you know, that young woman 741 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 4: who wanted to replicate her life, and then the woman 742 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 4: that you became, and the mother and the wife, and 743 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:39,359 Speaker 4: the poet and the grown ass woman you know who's 744 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,399 Speaker 4: actually just putting together a life of meaning. And there's 745 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,840 Speaker 4: so much in this book about making meaning that I 746 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 4: think is really extraordinary. 747 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 2: Here's Maddie reading one of her poems. This one is 748 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,440 Speaker 2: titled Bride. 749 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: How long have I been wed to myself? Calling myself darling, 750 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 1: dressing for my own pleasure each morning, choosing perfume to 751 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,799 Speaker 1: turn me on? How long have I been alone in 752 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 1: this house? But not alone? Married less to the man 753 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,440 Speaker 1: than to the woman silvering with the mirror. I know 754 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,439 Speaker 1: the kind of wife I need, and I become her, 755 00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,720 Speaker 1: the one who will leave this earth. At the same 756 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 1: instant I do, I am my own bride. Lifting the 757 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:45,799 Speaker 1: veil to see my face, Darling, I say, I have 758 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,040 Speaker 1: waited for you all my life. 759 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,080 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you. 760 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,400 Speaker 2: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zacre is 761 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 2: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 762 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,120 Speaker 2: This episode was recorded in front of a live audience 763 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,399 Speaker 2: at the Miami Book Fair. The interview was engineered by 764 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 2: Mitch Mormon. If you have a family secret you'd like 765 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,320 Speaker 2: to share, please leave us a voicemail and your story 766 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,719 Speaker 2: could appear on an upcoming episode. Our number is one 767 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 2: eight eight eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You 768 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,759 Speaker 2: can also find me on Instagram at Danny Rider. And 769 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:41,680 Speaker 2: if you'd like to know more about the story that 770 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:45,239 Speaker 2: inspired this podcast, check out my memoir Inheritance. 771 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,319 Speaker 4: For more podcasts us from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 772 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.