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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls.

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Speaker 2: On the Internet.

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Speaker 1: Ashley Saint Clair is a right wing influencer. She even

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Speaker 1: wrote a kid's book called Elephants Are Not Birds, which

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Speaker 1: is a pretty thinly veiled anti trans metaphor. In twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four, Ashley had a baby with Elon Musk, a

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Speaker 1: fact that she kept private for nearly a year. Musk

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Speaker 1: offered her fifteen million dollars plus one hundred thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: per month in child support in exchange for signing an

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Speaker 1: NBA and never revealing his paternity. She refused, saying that

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Speaker 1: she didn't want her son to feel like a secret.

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Speaker 1: What followed, according to Ashley, was retaliation financially, publicly, and technologically.

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Speaker 1: Musk's company X allowed his AI chatbot GROC to generate

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Speaker 1: sexualized images of her, including depictions based on photos from

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Speaker 1: when Ashley was a minor. After she complained, her account

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Speaker 1: was demonetized and stripped of premium features. Last week, Ashley

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Speaker 1: filed a lawsuit against X and now Elon Musk is

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Speaker 1: saying that he plans to seek sole custody of their son,

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Speaker 1: who Ashley says he's only ever met a handful of times. Now,

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Speaker 1: Mosk is citing Ashley's regret over her past transphobic behavior

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Speaker 1: as evidence that she intends to transition their one year

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Speaker 1: old child, even though she never said any such thing. Now,

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Speaker 1: this episode is not just about Ashley Saint Clair. It's

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Speaker 1: about what happens when the same outrage machine that forwards

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Speaker 1: cruelty turns on one of its own, and what it

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Speaker 1: means when someone tries to step off of it.

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Speaker 3: My name is Parker Maloy. My pronouns are she, her,

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Speaker 3: and I'm a writer. I write a newsletter called The

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Speaker 3: present Age.

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Speaker 1: In a piece for her popular newsletter, The present Age,

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Speaker 1: called a conservative influencer, apologized for her anti transpast elon

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Speaker 1: Musk is trying to take her kid. Perker grappled with

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Speaker 1: Ashley's apology and asks, if someone expresses regrets for their

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Speaker 1: past harmful behavior, shouldn't we be listening. I have been

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Speaker 1: following your work for a while. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: mean this in a creepy way. I feel like you

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Speaker 1: have really been on the cutting edge of a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff, Like you know, leaving a larger outlet and

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Speaker 1: doing your own thing. I feel like you were one

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Speaker 1: of the first writers I really saw in that space.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know it because it was it was twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty one when I made the move, because before writing

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Speaker 3: the present age, I was the editor at large. I

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Speaker 3: was trying to remember the title editor at large of

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Speaker 3: Media Matters for America, and which was this, you know,

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Speaker 3: for the of those who don't know, it's this progressive

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Speaker 3: media watchdog group, which basically involved a lot of watching

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Speaker 3: like Fox News and reading Breitbart and basically stewing in

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Speaker 3: the right wing media ecosystem. So all of the things

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Speaker 3: that would make you make you sad and angry, I was.

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Speaker 3: I was there to watch and read them, and so

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Speaker 3: I kind of when I left, when I left Media

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Speaker 3: Matters in twenty twenty one to start start my own thing,

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Speaker 3: it was. It was kind of scary, but it also

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Speaker 3: kind of opened up the opened up for the ability

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Speaker 3: for me to kind of write about a little bit

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Speaker 3: whatever I want, not necessarily stay super focused on right

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Speaker 3: wing media, like being able to to talk about things

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Speaker 3: that are happening in culture, tech, journalism, politics, whatever it

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Speaker 3: may be, and not having to tie it back to

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Speaker 3: and here's what Fox News had to say or something

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Speaker 3: like that was really freeing.

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine, and you really are somebody that

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Speaker 1: really threads the needle of all those different things. You

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Speaker 1: were talking about media, tech, politics, social issuals, culture so

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Speaker 1: well in the piece that you wrote about Ashley Saint Clair.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that is a great example of what

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Speaker 1: I mean in the piece. I love the framing that

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Speaker 1: you use because you describe it as this engagement machine

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Speaker 1: that you and your own career spent a lot of

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Speaker 1: time writing about, identifying and breaking it down, where conservative

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Speaker 1: media figures are able to really just deploy anti trans

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Speaker 1: rhetoric for clout and cash. So, first off, what is

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Speaker 1: the machine like for people who are like the machine?

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Speaker 1: What are they talking about? Break it down for us?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 3: So basically, I mean we all know that since Elon

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Speaker 3: Musk took over Twitter in twenty twenty two, he's kind

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Speaker 3: of molded it into his own is on nightmare factory.

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Speaker 3: Uh that that is just an algorithm that is based

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Speaker 3: entirely on what he wants to see. But even before that,

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Speaker 3: outrage has always done really well on the Internet. Uh divisiveness.

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Speaker 3: Uh you know that that's why when people post on

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Speaker 3: you know, social media and they want engagement, they'll say

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Speaker 3: unpopular opinion and then just share their opinion instead of

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Speaker 3: just saying what their opinion is, like, they say unpopular

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Speaker 3: opinion because they want people to be like, well, I

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Speaker 3: disagree with this, so I'm going to engage with it,

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Speaker 3: and I'm gonna you know, these are those are her

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Speaker 3: harmless things generally, but in the in the right wing

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Speaker 3: media ecosystem, you know, it's you know, these these sorts

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Speaker 3: of things can can really influence policy and public opinion.

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Speaker 3: And I think over the past five to probably five

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Speaker 3: seven years or so, uh, their work trying to demonize

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Speaker 3: trans people, you know, by either by pointing to you know,

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Speaker 3: edge cases of you know, people being inappropriate or like

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Speaker 3: seeking out people who commit crimes and being like this

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Speaker 3: is what you know, this is what all trans people

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Speaker 3: are like, and highlighting that, you know, has really hurt

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Speaker 3: public public perception of trans people. And it's it's not

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Speaker 3: it's not a new thing.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: Breitbart, for instance, the right wing publication, used to have

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Speaker 3: a tab on its on its website that was just

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Speaker 3: black crime, and it was just crime committed by black people,

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Speaker 3: and that was the whole thing. The whole purpose of that,

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Speaker 3: to see a feed of this is to to try

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Speaker 3: to get you to think this whole group, something's wrong

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Speaker 3: with this group of people. And that's what they do

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Speaker 3: to trans people, and that's what they do to you know,

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Speaker 3: you see these social media attacks going out, you know,

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Speaker 3: currently happening to people Somalie's in Minnesota, you know, or

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Speaker 3: Haitians in Ohio before the twenty twenty four election, where

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Speaker 3: you know, they would just kind of come out there

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Speaker 3: and throw throw out something that was obviously falls you know,

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Speaker 3: they're eating pets, stuff like that, where it's meant to

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Speaker 3: smear an entire group, you know, whether it's built on

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Speaker 3: facts or not. And so the thing with the Ashley

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Speaker 3: Saint Clair story, which I can, should I explain it

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Speaker 3: real quick?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 3: Okay? Cool? So basically, Ashley Saint Clair is is a

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Speaker 3: conservative influencer and she had also she had a baby

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Speaker 3: with Elon Musk in twenty twenty four, which he has

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Speaker 3: a lot of babies, yes he does.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 3: She's also the author of an anti trans children's book

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Speaker 3: called Elephants Are Not Birds. Earlier this month, must Ai

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Speaker 3: chatbot Grock was used to generate sexualized images of her,

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Speaker 3: in addition to like a bunch of women and children,

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Speaker 3: including some based on photos from when she was fourteen.

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Speaker 3: When she complained about this, the platform stripped her of

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Speaker 3: her blue verification badge, demonetized her account, and took away

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Speaker 3: all the premium features. Then, you know, after that, she

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Speaker 3: posted an apology for her past anti trans rhetoric and

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Speaker 3: acknowledged Musk's trans daughter, Vivian as her son's sister. So

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Speaker 3: Musk responds to this by announcing that he's filing for

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Speaker 3: full custody, claiming he wants claiming that Ashley wants to

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Speaker 3: transition their one year old, which she never said anything

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Speaker 3: like that. But that's that's kind of the story at play,

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Speaker 3: and it's been really interesting because for so long she

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Speaker 3: you know, she benefited from this, from this system. You know,

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Speaker 3: she got her start at turn Point USA with Charlie

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Speaker 3: Kirk's organization, and what was dropped in twenty nineteen after

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Speaker 3: she was photographed at a dinner with white nationalists, so

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Speaker 3: it's like she's she was really deep in this conservative

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Speaker 3: media ecosystem. But what I decided to write about was

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Speaker 3: how as a transperson, as someone who's who's watched a

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Speaker 3: lot of like really awful things said about trans people,

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Speaker 3: and who was very aware of elephants are not birds

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Speaker 3: when it came out. I saw that and someone asked me, like,

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Speaker 3: what do you what do you think of? You know,

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Speaker 3: what do you think of? Her apology, her her walking

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Speaker 3: walking back Some of the things she said about trans people.

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Speaker 1: On x Ashley Saint Clair seems to contend with her

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Speaker 1: past behavior. When asked how she now feels about trans

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Speaker 1: people after having engaged such blatant transphobia, she said, quote,

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Speaker 1: I feel immense guilt for my role, and even more

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Speaker 1: guilt that things I said in the past may have

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Speaker 1: caused my son's sister more pain, referring to Elon's daughter, Vivian,

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Speaker 1: who is trans. I don't really know how to make

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Speaker 1: amends for many of these things, but I have been

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Speaker 1: trying incredibly hard privately to learn and advocate for those

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Speaker 1: within the trans community that I've heard. I also haven't

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Speaker 1: said much on this because I have gone back and

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Speaker 1: forth over whether my voice would be helpful on this issue,

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Speaker 1: since it will be framed as disingenuous or just turning

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Speaker 1: it because I'm scorned. Even this reply will become right

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Speaker 1: wing hysteria, but yeah, I am sorry. Let me know

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Speaker 1: how I can help. Parker really thought hard about Ashley's apology.

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Speaker 3: My initial reaction reading that was, you know, kind of

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Speaker 3: like there are two ways to go about this. You

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Speaker 3: can either view view that as like, well, this person

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Speaker 3: has been horrible about trans issues, Why should I trust them?

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Speaker 3: How do I know they're sincere and how do I

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Speaker 3: know that they'll do the right thing or whatever? But

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Speaker 3: I wanted to kind of force myself to really think

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Speaker 3: about this, to be like, things are bad for trans

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Speaker 3: people right now. Isn't it good that someone even if

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Speaker 3: it's only because Elon Musk took away their blue check

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Speaker 3: mark and demonetize them, you know, isn't it still a

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Speaker 3: good thing if someone comes around on this issue and

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Speaker 3: was like, you know what, I realized that it was

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Speaker 3: a bit much. Maybe I need to kind of walk

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Speaker 3: that back.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: It's one of those things that I want to encourage

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Speaker 3: more people to take that approach to to feel like

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Speaker 3: they can change on an issue and people won't bite

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Speaker 3: their heads off, and you know, because it's not fun

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Speaker 3: getting yelled at on the internet, and you know, I've

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Speaker 3: learned that over the years.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever think you'd see the day where you

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Speaker 1: find yourself acknowledging the apology of somebody with a history

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Speaker 1: like the Ashley Saint Clair's.

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Speaker 3: Having to write something sympathetic about someone who wrote elephants

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Speaker 3: or hot birds. You know it was a little hard,

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Speaker 3: you know, but I had to sit with it. But

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Speaker 3: I kept coming back to this question, like what do

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Speaker 3: I actually want? Do I want to punish people who

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Speaker 3: used to hold bad views? Or do I want fewer

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Speaker 3: people to hold bad views? So if it's the latter,

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Speaker 3: I have to leave room for people to change.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break at our back.

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Speaker 1: One of the points that you make in the piece

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Speaker 1: is taking it back to this concept of the machine

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Speaker 1: you write. You're valuable as long as you're producing content

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Speaker 1: that feeds the outrage cycle. The moment you deviate, the

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Speaker 1: moment you expressed out or empathy or heaven forbidden apology,

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Speaker 1: you become the content. The same people who cheered your

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Speaker 1: attacks on trans kids will turn those same weapons on you.

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Speaker 1: And even in what she wrote, Saint Clare seems very

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Speaker 1: aware of that reality herself. She said, oh, as soon

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Speaker 1: as I say anything, this is going to feed the

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Speaker 1: right wing outrage machine, and by golly, she was right.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean there's one example of this that

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Speaker 3: comes to mind was it was probably back and I'd

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Speaker 3: say somewhere twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, somewhere during Trump's first term,

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Speaker 3: Tommy larn the right wing commentator, She went on the

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Speaker 3: View and while on the View, she mentioned that she's

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Speaker 3: personally pro choice, and afterwards she got like the entire

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Speaker 3: right wing apparatus kind of came at her. She got

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Speaker 3: fired from her job at The Blaze, a conservative outlet.

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Speaker 3: She people were like, I'm no longer going to support you,

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Speaker 3: and she kind of had to disappear for a little

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Speaker 3: bit before. You know, all she did was she just

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Speaker 3: kind of stopped talking about abortion as a whole and

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Speaker 3: kept get giving Fox News what they wanted. Because she

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Speaker 3: she went on to work for Fox News, and like,

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Speaker 3: she's still really conservative, and she says a lot of

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Speaker 3: things that I strongly disagree with and I think are bigoted.

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Speaker 3: But it was really interesting to watch what happened when

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Speaker 3: she stepped just a little bit outside of what they

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Speaker 3: were comfortable with. Like she was just saying her personal

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Speaker 3: position was that she's pro choice, Like she still supported

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Speaker 3: all the anti choice politicians. But it wasn't enough that

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Speaker 3: it wasn't enough that she supported those politicians and their policies,

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Speaker 3: but that she had to personally buy into what they

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Speaker 3: were saying and not speak out against it in any way.

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Speaker 3: You know, people criticize the left a lot for being like, oh,

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Speaker 3: the left is so so stuck on you know, having

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Speaker 3: everyone needs to have the right positions and everyone needs

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Speaker 3: to have, you know, stand for the right things. No,

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Speaker 3: there's no diversity of thought on the left, but it's

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Speaker 3: just like there absolutely is on the right. It's restrictive,

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Speaker 3: as you know.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know, And part of me looks at that,

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Speaker 1: and I see people who are so committed to transphobia

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Speaker 1: or things like that, and oftentimes I will wonder, doesn't

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Speaker 1: this get old after a while for them? Don't they

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Speaker 1: want to evolve or just sort of be done with this?

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Speaker 1: And I wonder if this fear of themselves becoming content

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Speaker 1: for the machine might keep people who otherwise might evolve

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Speaker 1: or move on or like be ready for just a

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Speaker 1: different conversation for themselves kind of locked into this level

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Speaker 1: of outrage all the time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you have to keep the thing about

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Speaker 3: the outrage machine is that you have to keep one

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Speaker 3: upping yourself.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And and and you'll see this with creators uh all

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Speaker 3: the time. Nick Fuentes, he's he's a great example of

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Speaker 3: this as someone who I mean, he's he's very racist.

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Speaker 3: He's he's a white nationalist. He's popular on the right. Uh.

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Speaker 3: And watching his career over over the past six or

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Speaker 3: seven years as well has been really interesting because he's

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Speaker 3: had to keep one upping him himself and taking increasingly

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Speaker 3: more extreme positions, you know, to the point where now

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Speaker 3: it's just him saying things just to kind of shock people.

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Speaker 3: He was saying Jeffrey Epstein was actually really cool, and

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Speaker 3: he's he's he's supported Hitler, and he's he's he says

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Speaker 3: all of these things that are just complete, completely outrageous.

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Speaker 3: But it's his brand, and it's what the people who

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Speaker 3: give him money to pay his bills want him to say.

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Speaker 3: And if he stops saying it, if he had this

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Speaker 3: moment of clarity and he said, you know what, I've

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Speaker 3: been a horrible racist, terrible bigot my entire professional life.

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Speaker 3: I need to fix that. Every like all of his

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Speaker 3: followers would turn on him instantly, and to some extent.

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Speaker 3: It's like I understand that sort of audience capture, where

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Speaker 3: you build an audience who expects something of you, and

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Speaker 3: if you start to give them something different, you can't

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Speaker 3: really be surprised when when your audience stops paying or

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Speaker 3: stops reading or listening to you or watching you. Like

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Speaker 3: if if tomorrow I decided to turn the present age

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Speaker 3: into a baseball blog, which I love baseball, but I

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Speaker 3: feel like if I wrote about nothing but baseball, I

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Speaker 3: would lose a lot of the people who read my

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Speaker 3: work because I write about politics and media and you know,

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Speaker 3: and culture in a way that they benefit from or

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Speaker 3: they can can connect with. So it's it's one of

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Speaker 3: those things where it's like I do understand feeling sort

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Speaker 3: of trapped by what your audience expects from you, And

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Speaker 3: I think that that's why there are some really extreme

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Speaker 3: content creators out there who just kind of keep getting

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Speaker 3: pushed into more and more absurd positions. You know. Over

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Speaker 3: the weekend, I saw a video of some conservative influencers.

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Speaker 3: There was that Andrew Kate, Nick Twente's sneak O and

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Speaker 3: like a few other right wing content creators, like they

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Speaker 3: were at like a club in Miami, listening to one

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Speaker 3: of the like the Hitler song that Kanye West made,

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Speaker 3: and they were doing like there was videos of them

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Speaker 3: doing like the like Hitler salutes and stuff like that,

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Speaker 3: and it's just like, how do you get how do

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Speaker 3: you get to that point? You know, to where you're like,

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Speaker 3: this is not only something I'm going to do, but

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna film myself doing this and put it on

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Speaker 3: the internet for literally, Like that's the type of thing

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Speaker 3: that I feel like ten years ago people would have

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Speaker 3: been trying trying their hardest to hide from the internet

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Speaker 3: posting it themselves. But this is kind of what happens

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Speaker 3: with this machine. It it takes, it takes you and

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Speaker 3: it and it keeps prodding you to be more extreme.

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Speaker 3: And I was just really shocked to see someone take

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Speaker 3: the opposite side of that. You know, I'm sure that

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Speaker 3: Ashley Saint Clair like it. There's no money to be

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Speaker 3: made on being someone who towards trans people, Like there's

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Speaker 3: there's no money, there's no fame to come from this,

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Speaker 3: you know. I the opposite is true. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: of money that's to be made for being transphobic. You know,

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Speaker 3: you can be Riley Gaines and make like four hundred

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars a year for coming in fifth place in

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Speaker 3: a swim meet. So it's it's one of those things

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Speaker 3: where it's like there's when when someone does the right

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Speaker 3: thing despite their being financial incentives to do the opposite.

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Speaker 3: I feel like it's worth calling out and being like cool,

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Speaker 3: I hope more people are like this, and that's what

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Speaker 3: I try to do.

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Speaker 1: I side note, I was just thinking of that video

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Speaker 1: of them out at that club. It didn't even look

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Speaker 1: like a good time. That was the other thing. I

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Speaker 1: was like, this doesn't even seem like a fun night

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Speaker 1: out to me.

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Speaker 3: No, Like I mean, maybe maybe I'm just getting old,

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Speaker 3: but I watched that. I'm just like this, this just

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Speaker 3: doesn't seem fun, Like they're they're putting on a performance basically,

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Speaker 3: you know, and it's just like I wouldn't ever want

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Speaker 3: I don't know. It's it's hard to put myself in that,

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Speaker 3: in that headspace, like I can't I can't imagine being

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Speaker 3: like time to film my content in the club, no

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Speaker 3: matter what, no matter what, the content is.

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Speaker 1: Same, same, same. And to your point about sort of

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Speaker 1: turning the lens on people who are showing that they're

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Speaker 1: able to evolve. I liked it in your piece, you

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Speaker 1: go out of your way to be like, listen, I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying she deserves a medal forget forgetting here. But

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Speaker 1: you know, when I first started reading about Ashley Saint

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Speaker 1: Clair and of her apology, I was like, well, would

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Speaker 1: she be doing this if she weren't scorn by Musk,

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Speaker 1: If like Musk was continuing to like give her money

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Speaker 1: for the kid and was like treating her, well, would

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Speaker 1: we be having this conversation? And you were like, Ultimately,

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Speaker 1: people change their minds for all kinds of different reasons,

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Speaker 1: Like sometimes it's because you saw what they that that

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Speaker 1: that person has turned their behavior on you and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel so good. It might not be the world's

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Speaker 1: most noble path to empathy, but it is a path.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about about how you got there?

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Speaker 3: So, so I've been thinking about times on like here's

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Speaker 3: an example of something that happened to me recently. So

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Speaker 3: I usually for social media these days, I use Blue Sky.

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Speaker 3: That's just where I'm like most comfortable posting stuff about

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Speaker 3: my life, my days, you know, whatever, whatever I'm doing.

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Speaker 3: A few weeks back, I had a situation where I

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Speaker 3: upset a bunch of people on Blue Sky because I

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Speaker 3: made like there there was someone on Twitter who made

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Speaker 3: a a mod for the game Animal Crossing where it

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Speaker 3: tick took one of the cartoon characters who's a dog,

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Speaker 3: and it gave her like an hour glass figure. And

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Speaker 3: I saw this and I was like, this is just

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Speaker 3: kind of ridiculous that I was like, why would someone

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Speaker 3: make this? This is this is very silly, and so

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Speaker 3: I posted on blue Sky and I just wrote though,

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Speaker 3: and people were like, why are you questioning why someone

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Speaker 3: would make this? Do you hate furries? And I was

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Speaker 3: like furries? What does this have to do with furries?

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Speaker 3: And they're like, well, it's a dog and the person

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Speaker 3: who made the mod is apparently a furry. And it's

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Speaker 3: like I didn't know any of that, but I had

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Speaker 3: people yelling at me and we're very angry about this

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Speaker 3: in my mentions, and there did come a point where

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Speaker 3: I was like, my instinct was to be like, you

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Speaker 3: know what, I didn't have anything against furries, but maybe

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Speaker 3: now I do. Like that was that thought that was

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Speaker 3: in there, and I'm like, that's not a good thought.

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Speaker 3: My opinion about a group, whether I understand that group,

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Speaker 3: whether I don't understand that group or not should not

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Speaker 3: be determined by how someone talks to me on the internet.

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Speaker 3: But at the same time, I think it's important to

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Speaker 3: understand that people do react to how others respond to them.

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Speaker 3: And if the response from all all trans people to her,

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Speaker 3: you know, apology, which you know, seems heart seems like

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Speaker 3: it was heartfelt, like seems like she means it. Uh,

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Speaker 3: you know, if every response from a trans person was

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Speaker 3: like you you know, no, we don't forgive you, you're

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Speaker 3: you're terrible, You're horrible, like there were, there's no incentive

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Speaker 3: to actually change. And so I tried to look at

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Speaker 3: it from that that point of view, and it was helpful.

401
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Speaker 3: I think that it was right after the thing where

402
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Speaker 3: I had people piling on me on Blue Sky, But

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Speaker 3: you know, it's and I've also seen I've also seen

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Speaker 3: many people do something where they'll say something sort of

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Speaker 3: insensitive about trans people, and a bunch of trans people

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Speaker 3: will then respond to them online and say like, you're horrible,

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Speaker 3: you're terrible, this is bigoted, And they might have meant well,

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Speaker 3: maybe they didn't mean well, maybe they're just kind of

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Speaker 3: like they don't really have an opinion, but they said

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Speaker 3: something kind of kind of sloppy, and I've watched as

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Speaker 3: people have gone from being like, I'm just trying to

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Speaker 3: be you know, I'm just trying to interact with the

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Speaker 3: world and and understand what's going on, and I don't

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Speaker 3: really have any strong opinions on this topic. I've watched

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Speaker 3: people go from that to being like hardcore committed anti

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Speaker 3: trans advocates because they're like trans people annoyed me online

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Speaker 3: one day and like, and it radicalized me to be

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Speaker 3: more extreme, you know, Like that, I've seen that happen.

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Speaker 3: And while it's one of those things where it's like,

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Speaker 3: I don't it's not that I want to like coddle

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Speaker 3: people who have bad opinions, but sometimes I think the

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Speaker 3: like jumping at someone's throat might not be the best

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Speaker 3: best approach, you know, but especially when someone is apologizing.

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Speaker 3: So it's one of those things that it's just like,

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Speaker 3: you know, was her apology sincere? Maybe it is. I

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Speaker 3: don't know what's in her heart. I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: pretend I do, But I think the question of sincerity

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Speaker 3: is less important than people assume. If she's telling the truth, great,

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Speaker 3: she's not. She'll reveal that eventually, and in the meantime,

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Speaker 3: the apology itself is useful. You know, it models what

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Speaker 3: it looks like to say I was wrong publicly and

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Speaker 3: that I think has value regardless of her private motivations.

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Speaker 3: So and frankly, if we demand perfect motives before we

434
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 3: accept an apology, we're never going to accept any apologies.

435
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 3: People change their minds for messy, self centered reasons all

436
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 3: the time. That doesn't make the change less real.

437
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

438
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: I'm curious what has the reaction been like to your piece,

439
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's been kind of like mostly.

440
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 3: Positive, mostly like I've I've had people saying that that

441
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 3: piece made them feel hopeful because it's it is helpful

442
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,479
Speaker 3: to see like some some people who seemed so lost

443
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 3: in the anti trans uh you know environment, like pulling

444
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 3: back from that, you know. And I've seen some you know,

445
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 3: gotten some like messages from especially from like a few

446
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 3: other trans people who were just like, you know what,

447
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 3: I see what you wrote, and while I I understand it,

448
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily agree because you know, it's one of

449
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: those things like, oh, are we supposed to to give

450
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 3: a medal to every every person who was horrible and

451
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,719
Speaker 3: it's now less horrible. It's like, no, not and and

452
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 3: I make a point of saying that, of saying like, no,

453
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 3: you're not getting like a parade, but if you want to,

454
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 3: if you want to be less terrible about this issue

455
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 3: and hopeful and hopefully other issues. She's also I watched

456
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 3: an interview with her where she talked about how her

457
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 3: her views on immigration have also changed, where she's like,

458
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: I used to be very uh, you know, very hardline

459
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 3: on immigration. Then she's kind of shifted over over the

460
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: course of the past few years. So you know, hopefully

461
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 3: these things are you know, these things are real, but

462
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 3: we we'll see.

463
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: Here's where I have to admit that my initial reaction

464
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: to Ashley Saint Clair's issues was an eye roll. This

465
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: was before she was making any kind of public amends

466
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: for her behavior. It was an article I saw in

467
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: the Daily Mail where she was talking about selling her

468
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,959
Speaker 1: tesla after she said that Musk was financially retaliating against

469
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: her son with a wopping sixty percent cut that Elon

470
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: had made to their son's child support. Now at the time,

471
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: I remember thinking, what exactly did she expect? There is

472
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: more than enough of a public record of how Musk

473
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: treats the women in his life, especially the ones who

474
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: have his children. So we're meant to be sympathetic to

475
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: her that this didn't work out. Give me a break.

476
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: I thought, her interpersonal drama is her problem, and she

477
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: brought it on herself. But thinking about it further, I

478
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: realized I was giving Musk exactly what he wants because

479
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: this is not just an isolated interpersonal thing with Musk.

480
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: It encapsulates exactly how his interpersonal behavior ends up playing

481
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: out in ways that ultimately harmed the public. And to

482
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: just relegate them to quote his private life misses the

483
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: ways that he's terrorizing people women and Tray spokes both

484
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: privately and publicly in ways that are linked your piece

485
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: in some ways kind of put me personally in my

486
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: place in a sort of way, because when I was

487
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: supposed reading about Ashu, when I first heard about Ashley

488
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: Saint Clair sort of like speaking up about Musk. She

489
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: was doing a little thing where she was selling her

490
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,959
Speaker 1: tesla because she said, oh, Elon is not you know,

491
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: supporting me? And I had I had such a bitchy reaction.

492
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: I was like, well, what the hell did she expect

493
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: to getting mixed up with Evona Musk. I'm supposed to

494
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: be since but that is to this person, Like what

495
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: did she expect? And what I read your piece, it

496
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: really made me question what that reaction was about. I'm

497
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: with you. I'm not saying that she deserves a medal,

498
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: but you know, I think I was really quick to

499
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,719
Speaker 1: say the way that Elon Musk is treating this person

500
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: and her child is not my business, nothing to do

501
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: with me. She brought it on herself. Dah da da da,

502
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: And I think it looking at what he's actually doing,

503
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: you know, allowing his chappa to make these images of

504
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: her which are really inappropriate and sexualizing without her consent.

505
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: And we know that's not just Ashley. This is happening

506
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: to women and girls in mass On, x at a

507
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: rate of one non consensual sexualized image a minute. This

508
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: court strategy probably of like spending down the amount of

509
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: money that she has to fight him in court, Like

510
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: these are not personal issues, these are these are kind

511
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: of microchasms of how he does business. Yeah. I was like, like,

512
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: why am I so unwilling to deal with that? Because

513
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: I don't like this person? You know what I mean?

514
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: I don't know if that makes sense.

515
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 3: Oh no, absolutely, and and yeah, I mean the way

516
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 3: that he exerts power is by you know, he'll he'll

517
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 3: sue someone and then whether or not it's a legitimate

518
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 3: lawsuit that he's filing, he has infinite money and the

519
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 3: people that he's suing don't you know. And that's how

520
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 3: you know, back to Media Matters where I used to work,

521
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: Media Matters reported on when after Musk took over Twitter

522
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 3: and he started changing the algorithm, there were some some

523
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 3: instances where there were pro Nazi comments that were showing

524
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 3: up next to ads, which typically brands don't like that,

525
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 3: and so Media Matters published a piece where they were like,

526
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 3: check out these instances of you know, here's a pro

527
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 3: nazi post and here's the Apple ad that's above, you know,

528
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 3: like and so all these advertisers left. And then Elon

529
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,959
Speaker 3: Musk sued Media Matters for reporting on that, saying that

530
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 3: they cost him advertisers, which it probably did, but at

531
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 3: the same time, it was because they were doing reporting

532
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 3: and it was honest reporting.

533
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: We actually did a deep dive into Elon Musk's court

534
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,959
Speaker 1: strategy in his attacks on Media Matters, which will put

535
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: in the show.

536
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 3: Notes he doesn't care he knows is that he can

537
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 3: just wear them down and push them into debt, and

538
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 3: they ended up having to lay off a bunch of people,

539
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: which was really sad. A there are a lot of

540
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 3: people who, you know, probably a couple dozen people who

541
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 3: lost their jobs because Media Matters has to get real

542
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 3: lean to fight this lawsuit and not actually focus on

543
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 3: its mission and so like, so seeing that and seeing

544
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 3: him do that, like, I think it's important to understand

545
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 3: that it's just like what he's doing is evil, yeah,

546
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 3: and you know, but at this at the same time,

547
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 3: I think that there's right now, like we kind of

548
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 3: live in this world where I've noticed there are a

549
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 3: lot of times where people online will see some see

550
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 3: some tragedy befall someone who they would disagree with, you know,

551
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 3: a flood in a red state for instance, something like that,

552
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 3: and people will go, well, that's what you get for

553
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 3: voting for whatever, and you know, or you know, natural

554
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 3: disaster or the job markets screwed up because of a

555
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,879
Speaker 3: policy that they supported, and people just are like, well,

556
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 3: you know, play stupid games, win stupid prizes, fafo, you know,

557
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 3: like that sort of approach, and I don't know it

558
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 3: all just feels kind of mean and pointless, you know,

559
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 3: because like someone may have voted for Trump, I still

560
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 3: don't think that that means they deserve for their house

561
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 3: to burn down or you know, something like that. Someone

562
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 3: may have said, you know, may have taken some really

563
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 3: horrible anti trans racist, anti immigration points of view stances,

564
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 3: but I still don't think that they should be crushed

565
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: by Elon Musk or have their child taken away or

566
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 3: or or any of this stuff. Like I think it's

567
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 3: it's important that we all kind of push for the

568
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 3: type of world that we want it to be, you know,

569
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 3: that we want to live in. And sometimes, you know,

570
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 3: I think it's it can be difficult to try to

571
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 3: find empathy when a when reacting in anger or frustration

572
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 3: or you know, just you know, happiness, even you know,

573
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 3: if you're, if you're you're, if someone feels happy that

574
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,439
Speaker 3: someone else has experienced something bad, it's like that's way

575
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 3: easier than extending empathy and being like, oh wow, that

576
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 3: must really suck. So I don't know, it's and it's

577
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 3: not on me, like I I can only speak for myself,

578
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 3: you know, and that's all I tried to do. And

579
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 3: that piece I wrote was just like, this is how

580
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 3: I feel. And I'm not gonna say as someone's wrong

581
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 3: if they see her apology and they're like, no, I

582
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 3: don't buy it, Like that's that's fine, that's that's a

583
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,479
Speaker 3: legitimate position, I think.

584
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: But I.

585
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 3: Wanted to push myself out of my comfort zone a

586
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 3: little bit and be like, yes, here's this person who

587
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 3: wrote this anti trans book that was really mean spirited

588
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 3: for and it's a children's book.

589
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 2: Uh.

590
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 3: I think I'm going to challenge myself to try to

591
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 3: be like cool, good for good for her. I hope

592
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 3: she sticks with it. If she doesn't, I won't exactly

593
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 3: be surprised, but I can at least say that I

594
00:36:58,160 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 3: extended some empathy here.

595
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, I've really been I really identify with what

596
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: you're saying. I've been on a personal journey of trying

597
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 1: to exercise my or just keep exercising my empathy muscle.

598
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: And it was because of exactly what you just described.

599
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: Our current situation is not great. It's not great for

600
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: if you are any kind of a marginalized or like

601
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: minoritized person, if you're trance, queer, black, a woman. But really,

602
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: I think we're all in a fuck fucking going to

603
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: hell in a handbasket. It's not we're not having a

604
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: good time. And I realized I was, I was catching myself.

605
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,439
Speaker 1: It was like the voice in my head was no

606
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,240
Speaker 1: longer connected to my own humanity. And it's like, I ultimately,

607
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: people who are Trump voters or people who are like

608
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 1: transphobic and horrible and bigoted, it's not even really about them.

609
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: It's about me. Like I caught myself being the kind

610
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,919
Speaker 1: of person who I didn't recognize, like wishing for bad

611
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: things for people, and I'm really trying to not be

612
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: in that space because that's not who I want to be.

613
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: It's not really even about them exactly.

614
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 3: It it affects you, not like like how you respond

615
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 3: to something that you see from from someone you don't know.

616
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 3: You know it's because it's that's That's also the thing

617
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 3: about like how we interact with the world now. We

618
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 3: we're exposed to so many people's opinions about literally everything.

619
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 3: And not only that, but you could you can go

620
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 3: on Twitter and you could search for a topic and

621
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 3: specifically seek out opinions that will make you mad, like

622
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 3: like there is an unending well of rage on the internet,

623
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 3: like that you can just you can always find something

624
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 3: to be angry about. And I just I really, for

625
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 3: a long time struggled with how to take in all

626
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 3: of this stuff that I find insulting or hurtful or offensive.

627
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 3: And and I think part of it might be that

628
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 3: because of the background I have, you know, at Media Matters,

629
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 3: where the primary news sources that I would consult were

630
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 3: the right wing news sources that that were like straight

631
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 3: up anti trans trans people don't exist, saying that trans

632
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 3: people mutilate themselves, you know, like all of these really

633
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 3: intense things. And the funny thing is there there would

634
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 3: still be people who are just like, oh, you don't

635
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 3: want to you don't want to hear hear the point

636
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 3: of view is someone who disagrees with you that that like, oh,

637
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 3: you're you're afraid to hear. You're afraid to hear. Yeah,

638
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 3: And it's like, no, the silo I've built is very

639
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,280
Speaker 3: much out like I am living in someone else's silo

640
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 3: and it is not fun, you know. But I think

641
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 3: that that kind of primed me to when I stopped

642
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 3: working at Media Matters, to try to shift how I

643
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 3: think about other random people on the Internet. You know,

644
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 3: it's if someone's on TV all, you know, if like,

645
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 3: like I, I think it's fair to be like I

646
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 3: am angry at this elected politician who has implemented a

647
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 3: policy that I think is harming people, because those politicians

648
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 3: absolutely exist, and it's good to good to be upset

649
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 3: about those politicians because that sort of frustration and anger

650
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 3: can be used for positive things. You can, you know,

651
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 3: you can call your member of Congress, you can, you know,

652
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 3: do do all sorts of things. But when it comes

653
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 3: to like just seeing regular people online, even ones who

654
00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 3: have horrible views on things, I think it was important

655
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 3: to just kind of accept that it's just like, you know, what,

656
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 3: they're not worth getting angry about, Like, you don't have

657
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 3: to be like, what they're doing is great and I'm

658
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 3: happy about it. But I think it's important to not

659
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 3: not get consumed with the thoughts of a random person

660
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 3: on the internet who may or may not believe what

661
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 3: they're saying, but is just posting to maybe get you know,

662
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 3: a rise out of some people.

663
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:48,919
Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it. Well,

664
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: speaking of people who post to get a rise out

665
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: of people, let's talk about like who I consider to

666
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: be the ultimate the world's ultimate troll Elon Musk. You know,

667
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: we talked about this on the show. But when back

668
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: when Elon Musk first decided to buy Twitter or was

669
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: first talking about it, per like court filings, the reason

670
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: why was really rooted in transphobia, like explicitly and if

671
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 1: this is not me saying this, it's like part of

672
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: the public record. And I did not often see this

673
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 1: reported that. You know, people talked about it like a

674
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: tech leader, business decision kind of thing when they were

675
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 1: reporting on it, but they didn't they didn't talk about

676
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: this like known thing that this decision was rooted in.

677
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: Why do you think that is? Well?

678
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 3: I think part of it is that, like I mean,

679
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 3: going back like to like before before Musk bought Twitter,

680
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 3: even there would be like New York Times articles where

681
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 3: people would say there was one that asked the question

682
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 3: like has Musk revealed himself as a conservative? No, not

683
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 3: so fast, and I would make the argument that he

684
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 3: was like his politics are completely unknowable, and it's like, no,

685
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 3: they're pretty knowable. I mean, I think that one of

686
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 3: the reasons that the anti trans stuff kind of got

687
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 3: lost in it is that the people in positions of

688
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 3: influence and power at news organizations like The New York

689
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 3: Times Washington Post. I think that they're just kind of

690
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 3: indifferent to trans people at best. You know. It's it's

691
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 3: one of those one of those things where they very

692
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 3: very clearly view being anti trans as a completely valid

693
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 3: viewpoint that that shouldn't negatively affect someone, and they kind

694
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 3: of kind of just go, well, that's his view and

695
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 3: that's fine. It's it's it's one of those things that

696
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 3: it was. It's frustrating as a as a trans person

697
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 3: who who used to be on Twitter all the time.

698
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 3: Who I would I would post something, it would be shared,

699
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,439
Speaker 3: that of times, it would have a bunch of likes,

700
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 3: it would have so many replies from people and not

701
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 3: in like famous yeah, like I I like to to

702
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 3: be like back in the day. Uh you know, back

703
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:15,879
Speaker 3: in the day. There was there was one one time

704
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 3: where the official Twitter like account interviewed Chrissy Teagan, who

705
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 3: was also very very famous on Twitter in addition to

706
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 3: being famous in real life, where they asked her like,

707
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 3: if if Twitter was a party, who would you invite?

708
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 3: And she said my name on there.

709
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

710
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god, that's so crazy. Uh So, yeah,

711
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 3: so it was like Twitter was great, and he he

712
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 3: took it over to pretty much strip away everything that

713
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 3: I liked about it. When Twitter implemented a rule against

714
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 3: misgendering and dead naming trans people, you know it in

715
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 3: terms of targeted harassment, like that was it was one

716
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 3: of those rules where I made the argument. I wrote

717
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 3: a piece for The New York Times at the time

718
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 3: that was like, yeah, putting in this putting this rule

719
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 3: in place could allow us to have more open, more uh,

720
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 3: you know, thoughtful conversations about trans people and real areas

721
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 3: of contention, I think, you know, and I and the

722
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 3: examples I used, I was just like, yeah, if if

723
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 3: someone has uh, you know, there there's a discussion to

724
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 3: be had about, you know, trans people in sports, there's

725
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 3: a discussion to be had about you know, what kind

726
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 3: of healthcare people should should be able to receive and when,

727
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 3: and we can we can discuss you know, all those things.

728
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 3: But if we're going to start with like just repeating

729
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 3: over and over, you know, I don't think trans people

730
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 3: are real, or I'm gonna scream at you and call

731
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 3: you you know, I'm going to call you a man,

732
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 3: and I'm just gonna yell at you on the Internet.

733
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,240
Speaker 3: It's like all that does is that that pushes trans

734
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 3: people out of the conversation entirely because it's not fun

735
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 3: to get harassed on the Internet, and people it was

736
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 3: it was really frustrating that people would take that, you

737
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,720
Speaker 3: know what what Musk was implementing, which was like getting

738
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 3: rid of all those rules and just letting it be

739
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 3: kind of open season on trans people. He even made

740
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 3: it where if you if you say the word cis

741
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 3: or cis gender like, it doesn't show up for anyone

742
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 3: on Twitter. It gets labeled as being being hateful and

743
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 3: can't be retweeted by anyone. So it's it's one of

744
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 3: those things where he like clearly was rigging it against

745
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 3: trans people, making it hard to have conversations on there,

746
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,720
Speaker 3: and eventually most trans people just kind of left Twitter

747
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 3: because it wasn't it was wasn't productive, it wasn't helpful,

748
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 3: and it just fed you all of the worst things possible.

749
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 3: You know, it became, uh, the platform became libs of TikTok. Basically,

750
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 3: that was kind of it. And that shut down speech

751
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 3: that made that made speech on Twitter less free than

752
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 3: it was before. Because if you have people who feel

753
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 3: like they can't participate in the conversation because of the uh,

754
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 3: the toxic environment that you've created, Like you're not having

755
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 3: an open dialogue. It's not the town Square. It's just

756
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 3: it's just an anti trans platform and it's designed to

757
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 3: spread anti trans content and push actual trans people off

758
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 3: of the off of it. And you know, he he

759
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 3: does does this with any issue he cares about, and

760
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 3: he tweaks the algorithm. He you know, his his rock

761
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 3: chat bot has been lobotomized and retrained using Grockipedia so

762
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 3: that it no longer will respond to questions about trans

763
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 3: people using like what is said on Wikipedia, but instead

764
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 3: goes with this anti trans page that's been like written

765
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 3: up on the Grockipedia site, so it will it pairents

766
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,760
Speaker 3: back what Elon Musk believes as though it's like a fact.

767
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 3: But you know, it's his belief and he he's more

768
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 3: than welcome to have his beliefs. But at the same time,

769
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 3: it's kind of like watching watching him trying to tweak

770
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 3: it to get the responses that he wants. Specifically, is

771
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 3: is kind of evil, but you know that's that's what

772
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 3: he's doing, and that's what he bought right from the start.

773
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 3: It was like, this is a political project. He's doing

774
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 3: it to try to mainstream his thoughts as though they're

775
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 3: the public's thoughts. And you know, there was there was

776
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 3: a that that day where Groc wouldn't stop talking talking

777
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 3: about white genocide in South Africa, you know, where every

778
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 3: you'd ask a question about about us, like football, and

779
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 3: it'd be like, yeah, here's this, here's the response. And

780
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 3: then also, did you know that currently in South Africa,

781
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 3: you know, white white people are fleeing, and you know,

782
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 3: like all this stuff that was just like a weird

783
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 3: conspiracy theory was just baked into Groc at that point.

784
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 3: And so I think it's important that people realize that

785
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 3: that these you know, these these tech billionaires, you know,

786
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 3: Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, you know, those guys like they

787
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 3: they own the platforms in part so they can assert

788
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 3: their political views on the rest of the world. And

789
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 3: it's definitely worth keeping in mind because I think a

790
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 3: lot of people will be like, well, no Elon is

791
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 3: for free speech, even though every like once a week

792
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 3: he'll post something saying that like a teacher teaching that

793
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 3: America isn't the greatest should be tried with treason and murder,

794
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 3: you know, like he'll say something completely completely ridiculous like that,

795
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 3: but you know, which is very not free speech.

796
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 1: In your piece, you end it by talking about, you know,

797
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 1: if Ashley wants to keep talking about this and like

798
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: wants to actually know like what it is she can

799
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: do now to sort of make amends for her previous

800
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: you know, transphobia, it looks like continuing to talk, right,

801
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: It looks like talking about how you went from publishing

802
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: a transphobic kids book to them using the correct pronouns

803
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: for your kid's sister, right, Like, because people like you

804
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: and people like me, we're probably we're probably not going

805
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 1: to be the ones to chage people's minds, but she might.

806
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, well exactly, And that's that's kind of the thing.

807
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 3: Like there are times where all think to myself like

808
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 3: I can't you know, like I will think to myself

809
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 3: that like, oh wow, it would be helpful if someone

810
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 3: who wasn't trans could make this argument in trans people's favor,

811
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 3: you know, that sort of thing, Like there will be

812
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 3: times where I know that there's a immediately because I

813
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 3: because I'm trans, if I say something like oh actually,

814
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 3: and you know, clarify some some misinformation that I see, like,

815
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 3: there will be people who go, well, you you clearly

816
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 3: have have an agenda here because of who you are.

817
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 3: And I can't take this at face value. But if

818
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 3: you have someone who was anti trans who had changed

819
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 3: their views, like, yeah, I think that like they have

820
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 3: a better chance of getting through to people who view

821
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 3: trans people with suspicion, you know, at minimum, and you

822
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 3: know who could kind of be like, yeah, it is

823
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 3: It is a little strange that we're focused, you know,

824
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 3: we're obsessed with this like one percent of the population

825
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 3: and constantly talking about ways to try to push them

826
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 3: out of public life. Why are we Why are we

827
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 3: doing that? And and like asking people to kind of

828
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 3: consider consider the uh, you know why people in you know,

829
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 3: positions of power in the in the country want to

830
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 3: keep having that conversation instead of tackling, you know, dealing

831
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:32,720
Speaker 3: with affordability or you know, talking about you know, dealing

832
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 3: with climate change or any of these like real problems

833
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 3: that that affects people, you know, in real ways affect

834
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 3: all of us, affects a lot of people. You know,

835
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 3: they'd rather just say no, no, no, you should focus

836
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 3: on this group because this group is UH is harming

837
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 3: you in ways that we can't really we can't really specify,

838
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:54,359
Speaker 3: but we we're just going to keep talking about them

839
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 3: in this scary sort of way, you know, like that's

840
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 3: that's kind of the reality, you know. So it's it's

841
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 3: helpful I think for there to be people who are like, yeah,

842
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 3: I used to buy into all that stuff, but I

843
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,879
Speaker 3: don't anymore. And here's why. So it's like, yeah, if

844
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 3: she wants to keep talking about this, I think that

845
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 3: would be great. Just just be honest, she and and

846
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 3: I don't. One thing I want to make clear is

847
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 3: like I think that there is definitely a spot that

848
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 3: exists between being like hardcore anti trans and someone who

849
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 3: will like shout out like slogans and you know things

850
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,280
Speaker 3: like you know, like saying like trans women are women,

851
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 3: Like that's more of a slogan than anything that has

852
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 3: to do with politics, Like it's not it's not particularly

853
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 3: important to me if if a politician sees trans women

854
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 3: as actually women or transmen as actually men, like I

855
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 3: would have obviously, like I think more people should view

856
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 3: view trans people as who we say we are. But

857
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 3: at the same time, it's like I'm mostly concerned about

858
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 3: like the efforts to restrict you know, access to healthcare

859
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 3: or nondiscrimination protections in work and in public accommodations, and

860
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 3: you know, just being able to live lives and like,

861
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 3: I don't need someone to completely buy in and you know,

862
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 3: buy into like everything that every trans person says. So

863
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 3: I think it's important having people out there who maybe

864
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 3: aren't entirely super on board but maybe just like have been.

865
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 3: Like a single trans person came into my life and

866
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 3: it made me rethink how I view all of this.

867
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 3: You know, it made me. It humanized the issue for me,

868
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 3: because I think that's that's a big, big thing that's

869
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 3: you know, part of the reason that gay rights advanced

870
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 3: as quickly as they did is more people started to

871
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 3: know someone who was gay and trans. Trans writes, you know,

872
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,439
Speaker 3: the people who support trans rights the most are people

873
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 3: who know a trans person, And so it's more difficult

874
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 3: for trans people because we're such a small portion of

875
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 3: the population. Plus you don't necessarily know if every every

876
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 3: single person that you're talking to who is trans, whether

877
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 3: they're trans, you know, because not everyone walks around and

878
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 3: announces it everywhere they go. So it's it's one of

879
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 3: those things that it's it's going to be difficult to

880
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 3: kind of fight back against a lot of the a

881
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 3: lot of the anti trans stuff that's happening now. And really,

882
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 3: I think that we can just kind of use all

883
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 3: the help we can get. So she wants to keep

884
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 3: talking about this and wants to, you know, explain how

885
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 3: she got from one point of view to another. Like

886
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 3: I think that's good and that's helpful, and you know,

887
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 3: more credit to her if she does, and if she doesn't,

888
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 3: that's still that's still fine. She tried to make amends

889
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 3: for you know, her past positions, and all she can

890
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 3: do is try to do better moving forward.

891
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:11,359
Speaker 1: Parker, You're you're such a thoughtful person. I really just

892
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: like really appreciate the way you see the world.

893
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 3: Well, thank you. I I mean, I I I try,

894
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:22,240
Speaker 3: you know, like because I've I've sat there with holding

895
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 3: my phone in my hand so angry that I'm shaking,

896
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 3: you know, like I've had that and it's you know,

897
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 3: it's just it's it's not healthy.

898
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 2: You know.

899
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 3: I still find myself doing that. Sometimes I'll see something

900
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 3: that's that's that's annoying or frustrating or I think it's unfair,

901
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 3: and my reaction will be like I should yell at

902
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 3: this guy in this comments, but like, I'm trying not

903
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 3: to do that as much, just just because I I

904
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 3: think if I keep getting mad about every person who

905
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 3: has has spoken ill of trans people, that I'm just

906
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 3: always going to be mad.

907
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:11,359
Speaker 1: So got a story about an interesting thing in tech,

908
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 1: or just want to say hi? You can reach us

909
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 1: at Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find

910
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tenggody dot com. There Are

911
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod.

912
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio, an unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland

913
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and

914
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

915
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

916
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Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

917
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts.