1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: On February two, nineteen ninety two, neighbors noticed smoke emanating 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: from the Columbus, Mississippi home of eighty four year old 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: Georgia Kemp and called nine one one Firefighters found her 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: body brutally stabbed to death with a butcher knife. During 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: the autopsy, doctor Stephen Hayne observed vaginal injuries, but a 6 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: rape kit yielded no seminal or blood evidence. When the 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: investigation struggled, a local man with a record, Eddie Lee 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: Howard was identified as a potential suspect. The body had 9 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: already been thoroughly autopsied and buried without embalming fluid, when 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: doctor Hayne had a sudden realization that bite marks may 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: have been present, prompting the body to be exhumed and 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: set for examination by now infamous and discredited bitemark evidence 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: Charlatan Michael West. In the meantime, molds were made of 14 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: Eddie Lee Howard's dentures for comparison. This notorious fraudster had 15 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: developed a process that he called, to quote the West phenomenon, 16 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: which involves special glasses and ultra violet lights that allowed 17 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: him and only him, to see injuries that were totally 18 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: invisible to the naked eye, injuries that he ruled were 19 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: bitemarks that he could then match to the dental molds 20 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: of the accused. No photographic evidence of these alleged bite 21 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: marks ever existed, yet his testimony was enough to sentence 22 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: Eddie Lee Howard to death. Countless innocent men and women 23 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: are currently wrongfully imprisoned based on this same junk science, 24 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: while courts across our country continue to admit it as 25 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: evidence to this very day. This is wrongful Conviction with 26 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 27 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: That's me, of course, I'm your host, and today's episode eat. 28 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: There is a man who's been in prison since Lyndon 29 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: Johnson was president, a corrupt DA, a corrupt medical examiner, 30 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: an incompetent Charlotte, and who passed himself off as a 31 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: forensic dentist. A man who was basically compelled to service 32 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: his own attorney in more than one trial. I mean, 33 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: and I haven't even scratched the surface yet. But before 34 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: we go any further, we have as good of a 35 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: panel of guests today as I could ever dream up. 36 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: First of all, we have someone who you'll recognize Chris Fabricat. 37 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: Chris has been a frequent guest, not only on this show, 38 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: but also on the recent episode of Junk Science. Chris 39 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: is the Joseph Flomm Special Counsel to the Innocence Project, 40 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: also known as the Strategic Litigation Director. So he's got 41 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: a lot of fancy titles, but none of them are 42 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 1: fancy enough to describe the amazing work that he does 43 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: day in and day out. So Chris, welcome back. 44 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 2: To Wrongful Conviction. Oh, it's a pleasure Jason. 45 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: With him, we have for the first time a gentleman 46 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: who's known to basically everyone in this field, Executive director 47 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: of the Mississippi Innocence Project, Tucker Carrington. So great to 48 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: have you here. 49 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. 50 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 3: Thanks Jason, nice to be here. 51 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: And another name our listeners will recognize is, if not 52 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: from his writing, then from having been on our show before. 53 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: John Grisham, Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 54 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 2: Hello, Jason, happy to be here. 55 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: And for those in the audience who don't know this, 56 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: and a lot of people don't, John was a defense 57 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: attorney before he even began his writing career, and he 58 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: goes way back with not only the Mississippi Innisance Project, 59 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: but also with Tucker and this particular case. 60 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 4: My involvement goes back to Tucker. About fifteen years ago. 61 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 4: We started the Innocence Project at the Old Miss Law 62 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 4: School where I went to school, and we hired Tucker 63 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 4: to be our executive director. And oddly enough, my son 64 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 4: went to Ole Miss Law School in two thousand and 65 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 4: seven and he got into Tucker's clinical program and Tucker 66 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 4: assigned him Eddeley's case back in two thousand and eight, 67 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 4: and my son went to Parchment to death Row, a 68 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 4: place I've been too many times, and he met mister 69 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 4: Howard interviewed him several times, and that's when I first 70 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 4: learned of Eddie Lee's case and the facts surrounding it. 71 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 4: And by the end, though, we were just sort of 72 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 4: accustomed to reading another crazy case involving doctor Hanging and 73 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 4: doctor West. 74 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: And Eddie Lee Howard was in prison from nineteen sixty eight, 75 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: almost every day of his life until late twenty twenty. 76 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: And I want to go back in time to how 77 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: the system failed Eddie Lee Howard from the very beginning. 78 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 3: I'll get us up to the bid nineteen nineties, just 79 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 3: on the cusp of the incident that we're going to 80 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 3: end up talking about here, but in essence correct, Jason 81 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 3: mister Howard was incarcerated for most of his adult life. 82 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 3: He was out off and on. He came from difficult 83 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 3: circumstances in east central Mississippi. He was really never out 84 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 3: of prison for any appreciable amount of time until the 85 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 3: early nineteen nineties. He also has an outside personality. He's 86 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 3: notwithstanding the fact that he didn't receive much of an education, obviously, 87 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 3: he's a very very smart person, worldly sort of in 88 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 3: his own way, and talks a lot. He's a presence. 89 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 3: So he was, you know, by virtue of having been 90 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 3: incarcerated for most of his life, was at best on 91 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 3: the periphery of any sort of law enforcement radar. Had 92 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,119 Speaker 3: something gone wrong in his neighborhood. 93 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: Chris, take us back to February second, nineteen ninety two. 94 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: This is when eighty four year old Georgia Kemp was 95 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: murdered in her home. 96 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 5: You know, it really began with a fire that was 97 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 5: spotted by a young girl passing by Miss Kemp's house 98 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 5: that evening, and she went back home and they called 99 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 5: the fire department, who came between eight and nine o'clock 100 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 5: and went into the house and found a smoldering fire 101 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 5: and miss Kemp laying faced down in a state of 102 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 5: undress that suggests she'd been sexually assaulted and stabbed to death. 103 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 5: There was a phone cord that had been cut from 104 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 5: the wall, and there was nothing missing from the house. 105 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 5: There was really no pauntable items of much value. She 106 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 5: had no known enemies. It seemed all evidence pointed to 107 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 5: essentially a random attack. No fingerprints, there was no eyewitnesses. 108 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 5: Nobody had seen anything, nobody had heard anything. Miss Kemp 109 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 5: did not have many friends or family, and there were 110 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 5: really no suspects. And when the miss kemps remains were 111 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 5: taken to the morgue and examined, the entire body was 112 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 5: mapped by photographs and diagrams, and every cut, every scrape 113 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 5: was noted, both in photographs and in the autopsy reports. 114 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 5: After all that was documented, the victim's remains were thoroughly autopsied. 115 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 5: Her ribcage was removed, all of her internal organs were removed, 116 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 5: her neck was dissected, her brain was removed from her skull, 117 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 5: All the internal organs were weighed and measured, and then 118 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 5: the remains were interred without embalming fluid, so they would 119 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 5: have been rapidly decomposing, particularly with an elderly woman who 120 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 5: had been so thoroughly autop seed. And then during the 121 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 5: course of the investigation, you know, Nas Tucker was saying, 122 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 5: you know, what police did was beginning rounding up their 123 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 5: usual suspects, you know, in a place like Mississippi, particularly 124 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 5: at that time. But I would hasten to say probably 125 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 5: today too, a vulnerable white woman ravished by a black 126 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 5: male with a criminal record is a familiar narrative in 127 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 5: that part of the state. And that's exactly why they 128 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 5: alighted on mister Howard, not because there was any particular 129 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 5: evidence pointing toward him, but because he had said a 130 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 5: couple of vaguely incriminating things to police officers that were 131 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 5: investigating the case. But what was interesting, too, is that 132 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 5: there were also statements that really never became part of 133 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 5: the trial that work sculpatory, that it pointed toward an 134 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 5: alibi that mister Howard had, and these were essentially ignored, 135 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 5: and what became the chief item of evidence, at least 136 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 5: in terms of the investigation, was these kind of vague 137 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 5: statements that mister Howard had made one was that, you 138 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 5: know that I had a temper and that's why this 139 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 5: had happened. And he'd also said to police that the 140 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 5: cases solved and went on to say that they should 141 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 5: continue investigating and that it had been committed by you know, 142 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 5: multiple people, and that they were still out there. So 143 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 5: these were at best confusing, vague, mildly suspicious statements, but 144 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 5: it was enough for Columbus police to focus in on 145 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 5: Eddielee Howard. And the problem really was that they didn't 146 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 5: have any evidence, and so they went back to the 147 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 5: mortuary where miss Kemp's remains had been autop seed and 148 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 5: didn't know at that time, apparently, but that the victim's 149 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 5: remains had already been buried, and they decided at that 150 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 5: point to disinter the remains. And what was interesting, you know, 151 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 5: is that at trial, the pathologists had testified that they 152 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 5: were disinterred because there was some indication that there was 153 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 5: injury made by teeth marks. But there was nowhere anywhere 154 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 5: in the autopsy report, or in the photograph or anything 155 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 5: else that ever suggested that any teeth marks had been 156 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 5: left on the victim's body. And moreover, the victim's body 157 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 5: had been autopsy within hours of her death. So any 158 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 5: kind of bitemarks that had been inflicted at the time 159 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 5: of the crime plainly would have been visible at the 160 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 5: time of the autopsy, and yet they were not. Nonetheless, 161 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 5: the victim's remains were disinterred and brought back to the 162 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 5: ranking county Morgue. 163 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 4: And this happened in nineteen ninety two. It was a 164 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 4: period of time in Mississippi where doctor Hayne, the pathologist, 165 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 4: in doctor West, the small town dentist from Haddiesburg, Mississippi 166 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 4: who decided to become an expert in many fields. These 167 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 4: guns were sort of tagged, teaming way through the criminal 168 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 4: justice system in Mississippi and putting together an amazing string 169 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 4: of convictions for prosecutors who realized that these guys would 170 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 4: say pretty much whatever they wanted them to say to 171 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 4: conform to their theory of guilt, and they did this 172 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 4: time and time again. Haines would get the autopsy because 173 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 4: at the time the state did not have a state 174 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 4: medical examiner. That's been a problem there for forty years, 175 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 4: and Haine was one of the few doctors who would 176 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 4: agree to do autopsies. He once boasted performing two thousand 177 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,239 Speaker 4: autopsies a year and he would run through the autopsy 178 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 4: real quick, and if it was a murder case, and 179 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 4: he would get with the prosecutor and they would concoct 180 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 4: some theory of guilt and put the case together. And 181 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 4: that's what happened here. As Chris said that, you know, 182 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 4: after the autopsy there there were no visible signs of bidmarks, 183 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 4: but suddenly there were, or maybe there were. So they 184 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 4: dug up the body and they looked at it again 185 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 4: and called in doctor West, the dentist, as he so 186 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 4: often did. West had this theory that during any type 187 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 4: of sexual assault, there was a lot of biting going on. 188 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 4: So thus the teeth marks and waste had this special 189 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 4: ultraviolet light that only he could operate. And he examined 190 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 4: the body of missus Kemp in Lo and behold, he 191 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 4: found some teeth marks. 192 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: So Haym calls in West, as he had done in 193 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: other cases, to work his particular form of bullshit, something 194 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: that he referred to as the West phenomenon. And Chris, 195 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: can you explain what that is? 196 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 5: The West phenomenon? Essentially, it's ultra violet lights using you know, 197 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 5: fancy yellow goggles. Ultra Violet light penetrates beneath the skin. 198 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 5: In that you can get images that are invisible to 199 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 5: naked eye on skin, So that piece in and of 200 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 5: itself is not utter nonsense. But what you can see 201 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 5: that's invisible is a healing wound because on the surface 202 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 5: level it appears to have been healed, but there's still injury, 203 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 5: so that you can be viewed using UV light. So 204 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 5: if you use ultraviolet light on a dead body, particularly 205 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 5: a post autopsy body or something like that, you're going 206 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 5: to find all kinds of artifacts from all kinds of 207 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 5: instruments that may have created injuries or bruises or what 208 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 5: have you, and there's really no way to interpret them. 209 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 5: There's no way to say when they were inflicted, or 210 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 5: how they're inflicted, or how much they've changed from the 211 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 5: first time that they were inflicted. And so when doctor 212 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 5: West testified in this case and virtually all of this cases, 213 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 5: that he would claim that the bitemarks not only were 214 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 5: they inflicted by the defendant, indeed and without doubt to 215 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 5: the exclusion of everybody else on the planet, but he 216 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 5: would say that it was done at the time of 217 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 5: the murder. Right, So you have the defendant in violent 218 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 5: contact with the decedent at the time of the crime, 219 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 5: which is essentially a directed verdict if you buy the testimony. 220 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 5: So here the use of UV light was particularly outrageous 221 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 5: because this wound would have plainly been visible at the time, 222 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 5: right because algason was that had been created only a 223 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 5: few hours earlier. Right, So it doesn't become invisible and 224 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 5: start healing and disappear in time to find this in 225 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 5: a UV light. It certainly doesn't happen in a post autopsy, 226 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 5: post disinterment scenario. So the UV light was very useful 227 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 5: because it allowed the surfacing of images that could really 228 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 5: be anything and allow doctor West and he's not alone 229 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 5: and using this technique in terms of bitemark experts. But 230 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 5: at the bottom is that you just you surface artifacts 231 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 5: and then you can interpret them using your quote unquote 232 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 5: training and experience having seen so many of these cases 233 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 5: to say that, yeah, that was a bitemark, and I 234 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 5: was able to match this to the defendant, to Susan 235 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 5: for everybody else. 236 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 4: And so you got mister Howard. They talked to him 237 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 4: into yielding an implant from his teeth, and they said, true, 238 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 4: there's a there's a match. 239 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: But then it's even weirder than that, because mister Howard 240 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 1: had fucking dentures. This could be a punch line in it, 241 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: but there's nothing funny about it. 242 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 3: I appreciate you're saying it's tragic, because it these cases 243 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 3: really are. I mean, there's you know, Eddie Lee. Howard's 244 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 3: trial did not happen in a vacuum. Bike Mark matching 245 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 3: testimony was sort of in its infancy stages nationally, but 246 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 3: one of its leading proponents was Mike West, and he 247 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 3: was really beginning to make a name for himself both 248 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 3: nationally but particularly within Mississippi and in certain pockets of Mississippi, 249 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 3: and this jurisdiction that included Lowndes County, where mister Howard's 250 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 3: trial was, was one of them. Because this happened in 251 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 3: another case, another wrongful conviction from the very same area 252 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 3: of the country that the Innocence Project in New York 253 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 3: to people who aren't on this podcast but who were 254 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 3: deeply involved in this case, Vanessa Potkin and Peter Nufeld 255 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 3: in two thousand and seven two thousand and eight exonerated 256 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 3: two gentlemen, Levon Brooks and Kennedy Brewer, also convicted on 257 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 3: the same bogus BYTEmark testimony. There was another case Sherwood Brown, 258 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 3: where Mike West had just finished testifying. Doctor West had 259 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 3: just finished testifying in a case where he matched bitemarks 260 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 3: to a blooney sandwich to help convict somebody. So these 261 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 3: cases are sort of all of a piece, and the 262 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 3: prosecutor forrest allgood in this particular case. But prosecutors who 263 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 3: were using West were having real success. They were getting convictions, 264 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 3: they were getting death sentences, and so doctor West's involvement 265 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 3: in mister Howard's investigation in trial at this point is 266 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 3: not an anomaly. It's sort of a well known, time 267 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 3: tested recipe. 268 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode 269 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: of Ravel convision with Jason Flam and of the Last 270 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: Mile organization, which provides business and tech training to help 271 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re enter the workforce. The 272 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: Pacers Foundation is committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers 273 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: across Indiana, supporting organizations that are dedicated primarily to helping 274 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: young people and students. For more information on the work 275 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: of the Pacers Foundation or the Last Mile program, please 276 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: visit Pacersfoundation dot org or the Lastmile dot org. 277 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 3: And mister Howard's innocent. He wants to go to trial. 278 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 3: He's had a series of lawyers that one of them 279 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 3: had come in, he had quit, another had come in, 280 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 3: hadn't filed any motions on the eve of trial except 281 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: for emotion to continue, hadn't challenged the bite mark evidence. 282 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 3: And mister Howard is you know we've mentioned a couple 283 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 3: times already. It's a smart guy, he's a layperson, but 284 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 3: he knows they're not ready for trial. And so the 285 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 3: judge says, essentially, well, if you really want another lawyer, 286 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 3: I can do that, but you know it's going to 287 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 3: take another lawyer who knows how long to. 288 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 2: Get up to speed on the case. 289 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 3: And so mister Howard says, I'll represent myself then, and 290 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 3: that goes about as well as most people who represent 291 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 3: themselves pro SAE, particularly in complicated cases. And he gets 292 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 3: convicted slash sentenced as well to death and his first 293 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 3: trial representing himself. 294 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 1: So the trial is May of nineteen ninety four. The 295 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: case that the state put on was what exactly because 296 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: they had basically nothing, Can you give us an overview 297 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 1: of that trial? 298 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 3: In some the state's case was that the victim's body 299 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 3: miss Kimp's body was found as a result of an 300 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 3: arson or what looked to be an arson that was 301 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 3: supposed to cover up the murder, and Eddie Lee Howard 302 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 3: lived in the neighborhood. He had made some odd statements. 303 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 3: As Chris talked about earlier, the state's almost exclusive evidence 304 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 3: against mister Howard was doctor Hayne talking about the autopsy, 305 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 3: and then doctor West by far and away. At one 306 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 3: point I knew I'd counted up the transcript pages, but 307 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 3: the vast bulk of the transcript pages from both of 308 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 3: mister Howard's trials are Mike West testimony. 309 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, and I would say the overwhelming majority of Mike 310 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 5: West's testimony is really about his credentials. You know, all 311 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 5: the boards he sat on, all the honors he'd gotten, 312 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 5: every time the American Academy of Forensic Sciences sent him 313 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 5: to China as an ambassador, the discovery of the West phenomenon, 314 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 5: the literature, the research grants, that he'd been given, the 315 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 5: FBI training, that he'd done, that he'd been to Scotland 316 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 5: Yard and lectured them about by marks. The credentials themselves 317 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 5: are so persuasive, coupled with West's folksy charm and kind 318 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 5: of you know, a local kid made good all that 319 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 5: as potent snake oil. 320 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: Let's not leave out the fact that the bitemark quote 321 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: unquote evidence didn't actually exist anywhere except for in West's 322 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: twisted brain, right, because there were no photographs ever taken 323 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: or presented of these alleged mysterious bite marks that only 324 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: turned up four days after she was dead and disinterred. 325 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 5: You know, he testified without an exhibit at all, Right, 326 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 5: He just got on the witness stand with his folksy 327 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 5: charm and persuaded twelve jurors that he saw three different 328 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 5: bite marks, all of them he matched to Eddie Lee Howard. 329 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 5: The one on the victim's neck in particular, and the 330 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 5: one on the victim's breast were Eddie Lee Howard to 331 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 5: the exclusion of all other potential sources. And the neck 332 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 5: where doctor West claimed to have found this bite mark 333 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 5: that he matched to Eddie Lee Howard's dentures had been 334 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 5: dissected during the autopsy, right, and he claimed to be 335 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 5: able to manipulate the neck during his examination to show 336 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 5: the exact way that had been flexing when Eddie Lee 337 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 5: Howard allegedly bit down on it. 338 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 2: West was never even asked. 339 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 5: How is that even possible? Right, he was never even 340 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 5: asked to see a photograph. It's really an astonishing lack 341 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 5: of evidence and just astonishing claims that were allowed in 342 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 5: without objection. 343 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, not to be gross, but she really 344 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: wouldn't have even had a neck at this point in time, 345 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: after all the things that her body had gone through 346 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: during the examination post mortem. Just for the edification of 347 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: our audience. Courts just rely on precedence. So if something 348 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: was allowed in a court doesn't matter how long ago, 349 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: then a judge will say, well, it was allowed another time, 350 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: so allow it now. There's no objective analysis of the 351 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: validity of the science. It's just well somebody else said 352 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: it was okay, so it's okay with me too. It's 353 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: just something everyone should be aware of because it is 354 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: absolutely asked backwards. And so May twelfth, nineteen ninety four, 355 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: a day that will an infamy. Eddie Lee Howard was 356 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: convicted and sentenced to death. So he appealed because he 357 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: was in fact unfit to represent himself in court. And 358 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: John the Mississippi Supreme Court gets involved, right, which is 359 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: not a common thing. Right that they actually saw fit 360 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: in ninety seven to overturn his original conviction, right or 361 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 1: to order a new trial. 362 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 4: Well, he told them, the Mississippi Supremes reverse a conviction, 363 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 4: we all stop and take a hard look because it 364 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 4: doesn't have very often. 365 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: And the new trial happened in two thousand and The 366 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: state now presented a new witness, Eddie's ex girlfriend Kathe 367 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: and Folgum where they sort of dragged her into this, 368 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: who testified that Eddie bid her occasionally during sex and 369 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: that he smelled like smoke the day after the murder. 370 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: By the way, she had not previously reported that alleged 371 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: smell during her initial interview. So this this doesn't smell good, 372 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: so to speak, and all good get ready for this. 373 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:04,719 Speaker 1: He's quote unquote, the progress of mankind has been carried 374 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: forward on the backs of people like Michael West And 375 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: that's not enough. He goes on to say, back to quote, 376 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: the Church threatened to burn Copernicus because he dared to 377 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: say that the planets didn't revolve around the Earth. So 378 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: it was with Michael West end quote. So forget the 379 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: fact that he confused Copernicus and Galileo, because that's far 380 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: from the most ridiculous portion of this outburst, but Eddie 381 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: was again convicted and sentenced to death. 382 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 3: It's kind of astonishing, I mean, it's an astonishing claim 383 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 3: to make at that point in time, especially because there 384 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 3: already was plenty of evidence that, in fact, doctor West 385 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 3: was not anything approaching what all Good was arguing, you know, 386 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 3: because he had been already creating problems for himself. He 387 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 3: was going to be suspended from the American border, Forensic 388 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 3: got ontology had to be reinstated. Their national article about 389 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 3: him already I think in Newsweek, National Law Journal. So 390 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 3: if you were paying attention, this was a bold claim 391 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 3: to begin with, and it was also one that was 392 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 3: really starting to swim upstream against empirical data that was 393 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 3: starting to creep in. 394 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: Even then, there's developments in two thousand and one, two 395 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: thousand six, two thousand and eight. Eddie was ultimately excluded 396 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: from every piece of evidence that was tested for his DNA, 397 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: including the male DNA and blood found on the butcher knife, 398 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: and the testing also undermined West's theory if it was 399 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: even a theory that Camp had been bitten. No male 400 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: DNA or saliva was proven to be found on the 401 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: nightgown in the areas that would have come to contact 402 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: with the teeth and the areas that had allegedly been bitten. 403 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: So basically all of it was a combination of lies, nonsense, 404 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: and junk science. And twenty fifteen, the Lownes County Circuit 405 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: Court ruled the DNA evidence wouldn't change the outcome of trial, 406 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: which I find too crazy for even me. 407 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 5: You know, this same judge. Over all of the evidence 408 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 5: that we've been discussing around the Eddie Lee Howard case 409 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 5: over the course of two years in Lowndes County, Mississippi, 410 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 5: same place where Eddie Lee Howard was convicted. There is 411 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 5: evidence about the National Academy of Sciences findings on bitemark evidence. 412 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 5: There was testimony about Michael West's dramatic fall from grace 413 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 5: and the forensic science community. There was a new scientific 414 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 5: research based on bitemarks that were created in candaver skin 415 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 5: that showed that skin cannot record a bite mark no 416 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 5: matter what, you can't associate it with the teeth the 417 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 5: known to have made these bite marks. There was testimony 418 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 5: by now a judge in California who was a defense 419 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 5: attorney at the time who burned Michael West in a 420 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 5: blind sting and West Matt's teeth to a bitemark that 421 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 5: were known not to have made it very persuasively. Moreover, 422 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 5: videotape of that was played in open court, all that 423 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 5: was presented before the court, none of it was sufficiently 424 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 5: persuasive to overturn the conviction. 425 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 2: And real. 426 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: You know, and the blind the blind test I'd read 427 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: about that it's an investigator submitted his own teeth marks 428 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: as a potential culprit in this particular case, and the 429 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: genius doctor West concluded without any doubt whatsoever that this 430 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: was in fact a perfect match. And so yeah, he's 431 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: been exposed, re exposed, and yet you know, here we are, 432 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: and is he still practicing? 433 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 5: By the way, you know, the really repulsive irony doctor 434 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 5: West's career is that he's wound up as a prison dentist. 435 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 3: One of the things about the Eddie Howard case which 436 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 3: is fascinating is it kind of offers a snapshot of 437 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 3: some of the friends that before him, that Chris and 438 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 3: the Innocence Project had been working on. Because in two 439 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 3: thousand and nine twenty ten, when we first filed for 440 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 3: post conviction relief in Eddie Howard's case, there were really 441 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 3: only a handful of exonerations involving bitemarks, you know that 442 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 3: we were just sort of beginning to realize that this 443 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 3: was junk. Two of them, of course, were Levon Brooks 444 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 3: and Kennedy Brewers case, which the Innocence Project had done 445 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 3: just a couple of years prior, and in the span 446 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 3: of the years between two thousand and nine or ten 447 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 3: up until twenty twenty, thanks to Chris and the folks 448 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 3: in the forensic unit at the Innocence Project and others, 449 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 3: we were looking at two dozen exonerations by twenty twenty 450 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 3: based on fraudulent bitemark evidence. So the landscape had really 451 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 3: changed significantly. But by the time we filed our final 452 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 3: sort of petition in the Mississippi Supreme Court in twenty nineteen, 453 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 3: I guess so much water had passed under the bridge 454 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 3: that it was just manifestly obvious in our minds. And 455 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 3: of course we prevailed that this was a conviction that 456 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 3: could not stand, and the Mississippi Supreme Court went even 457 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 3: a bit further in their opinion, reversing and vacating the 458 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 3: conviction by saying, look, there's really no there's really no 459 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 3: evidence here. There's really no evidence to retry mister Howard. 460 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: August thirty first, twenty twenty, just a short time ago, 461 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: when the Mississippi Supreme Court finally vacated the murder conviction, 462 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: that death sentence, Justice Kitchens ruled that Mississippi shouldn't uphold 463 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: the conviction that death sentence based on the testimony of 464 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: a proven unreliable witness of course, doctor West, as we're 465 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: talking about, and the DA had to decide whether or 466 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: not he would pursue a new trial. So we finally 467 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: got the news we had all been waiting for and 468 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: you guys had been working for, and he was finally free. 469 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: But where is the case now, because the state still 470 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: has the option to retry him. 471 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 3: Right, Yes, the conviction and sentence have been vacated, so 472 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 3: it's back in the circuit court in a what I 473 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 3: think is a nod to the Supreme Court's opinion to 474 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 3: some of the things the Supreme Court said in addition 475 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 3: to vacating the conviction and the sentence is the paucity basically, 476 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 3: there's no evidence to really retry this case. The Court, 477 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 3: upon motion really of both parties, the defense and the prosecutor, 478 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 3: release mister Howard on bond while the state makes an 479 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 3: ultimate determination about whether it's going to proceed with this. 480 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: Matter or not. 481 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 5: That Eddie Lee Howard will certainly have company counsel if 482 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 5: there's ever another trial. 483 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,719 Speaker 1: Right, So amen to that. And so Eddie Lee Howard 484 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: is free. And that brings us to closing arguments, where 485 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: first I thank each of you for joining me and 486 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: us here today, and then I simply kick back in 487 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: my chair, turn off my microphone, leave my headphones on, 488 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: and just listen and learn from whatever you have to say. 489 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: And if you have a memory of Eddie's freedom that 490 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: you'd like to share, no pressure, but that would be 491 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: extra grade. So let's start with Chris Tucker and then John. 492 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 5: One thing that Tucker and I talked about before mister 493 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 5: Howard was released is changes that we had seen in 494 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 5: clients that had been incarcerated for many, many years wrongfully, 495 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 5: and that we meet clients like that in prison, and 496 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 5: like because we're human, we make judgments about intellectual capacity, 497 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 5: about who they are as people, about their ability to 498 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 5: survive on the outside. So we get the exoneration and 499 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 5: the change that will overcome a person upon being exonerated 500 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 5: and released is one of the most profound things that 501 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 5: I've experienced that I have been fortunate to experience. At 502 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 5: the Innocence Project, we formed a picture of a deeply damaged, 503 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 5: institutionalized person that was going to have real trouble navigating 504 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 5: just day to day life outside. But what's remarkable is 505 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 5: just how cogent, how happy, how on point mister Howard 506 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 5: is today. It's overwhelming the difference, and it just shows 507 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 5: how deeply damaging wrongful incarceration, or any incarceration, particularly for 508 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 5: long periods of time, and a place like Parchment is 509 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 5: to a human being, to their soul, to their ability 510 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 5: to relate to their fellow man. And to watch that 511 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 5: cloud lifted and the shackles, you know, literally come off, 512 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 5: it's just incredible. 513 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: Tucker, go ahead. 514 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 3: I've really been amazed and thankful to witness the kindnesses 515 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 3: that so many people have done for us and mister 516 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 3: Howard upon his release, trying their level best to make 517 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 3: his transition successful. And these are people, by the way, 518 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 3: some of whom you know are on our team social workers, 519 00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 3: for instance, but many of whom are not. 520 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 2: They owe us no. 521 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 3: Obligation whatsoever help him find housing. People have donated clothing, furniture. 522 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 3: It's just remarkable. This community that has all of a 523 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 3: sudden popped up and built itself around him and tried 524 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 3: to hold him up as he begins what Chris said. 525 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 3: You know, it's going to be a very very difficult 526 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 3: transition after. 527 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 4: All this time, John, when you read these cases, case 528 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 4: after case after case of just the bad junk science. 529 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 4: It's not just bite mark, it's arson boot mark, it's 530 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 4: tire print. 531 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 2: It's blood spatters. I wrote a book about that one. 532 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 4: You know, It's just these ridiculous areas of so called 533 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 4: science where people become experts like doctor West. He became 534 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 4: was a small town dentist who became somehow qualified to 535 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 4: testify all sorts of scientific. 536 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 2: Theories of guilt. 537 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 4: One thing that we do, Jason, as you know, with 538 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 4: the Innocence Project, we advocate in all the states policies 539 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 4: and new laws to tighten up the forensics. 540 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 2: We have no national standard. Any Lee was convicted because 541 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 2: of junk science, bad science. 542 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 4: And you know, again there are a lot of people 543 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 4: that fault here, the prosecutors who have no evidence. Every 544 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 4: wrongful conviction case should start off with the fact that 545 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 4: there was no physical evidence linking the defendant to the crime. 546 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,719 Speaker 4: Think about that, No fiscal levels, no blood, no semen, 547 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 4: no DNA, no fingernails, scratches, no eyewitness nothing. 548 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: There's nothing there for the police. 549 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 4: So they have to get desperate, and that's how they 550 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 4: get false confessions. They get jail house snitches, they hire 551 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 4: bogus scientists. 552 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: That's after they arrest the guy. 553 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 4: After they pick out their suspect with no evidence, they 554 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 4: have to build a case. And it happens in almost 555 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 4: every one of these wonwful convictions. 556 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flopp. 557 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects. Go to the link 558 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: in our bio to see how you can help. I'd 559 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburn 560 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show, as always, 561 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be 562 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and 563 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason 564 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in 565 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one