WEBVTT - What is Crypto For? Matt Levine Wants to Know

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I heard podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg News. It's Tuesday, October. Some of you may already

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<v Speaker 1>know the work and writing of Bloomberg opinion columnist Matt Levine.

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<v Speaker 1>There's this notion of like season control of your economic destiny.

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<v Speaker 1>That is that is like a real sort of like

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<v Speaker 1>running theme in a lot of crypto, where it's like

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<v Speaker 1>people who are like I don't like banks, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>like I want to make money for everyone else. You

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<v Speaker 1>are in for a treat. Matt's just published what I

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<v Speaker 1>will admit is many thousands of words on the subject

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<v Speaker 1>of crypto for a special edition of Bloomberg Business Week.

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<v Speaker 1>He joins us today to talk about what motivated him

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<v Speaker 1>to do such an intensive dive into the blockchain, why

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<v Speaker 1>he thinks of crypto as a living laboratory for innovation,

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<v Speaker 1>and what prompted him to start at the very beginning

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<v Speaker 1>with one big question, what is crypto for? Matt's a

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<v Speaker 1>pleasure to have you on the show. So we've got this.

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<v Speaker 1>I hesitated to use the word magnimum post because I

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<v Speaker 1>feel like there's going to be other things that you love,

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<v Speaker 1>But it's this incredible deconstruction distillation of a question that

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<v Speaker 1>we tackle on this show pretty much every day, which

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<v Speaker 1>is what is crypto? Why did you do that? Crypto

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<v Speaker 1>is relatively new and big enough to be really interesting,

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<v Speaker 1>but small enough to be sort of contained, And so

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<v Speaker 1>what I wanted to do was sort of start from

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<v Speaker 1>like the first principles of crypto and say, this is

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<v Speaker 1>like what Toci Nakamoto invented, and like what he typed

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<v Speaker 1>in a white paper, and then build from there and

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<v Speaker 1>sort of look at all of the possible ramifications and

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<v Speaker 1>developments of that, and to try to do it in

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<v Speaker 1>a way that it turned out to feel to me

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<v Speaker 1>quite long, but like less comprehensive than I wanted. Like

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<v Speaker 1>one wants to be able to say, here's all of

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<v Speaker 1>crypto and one magazine issue, and of course that's impossible,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's like more possible with crypto than it is

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<v Speaker 1>with a lot of other subject matters. And I thought

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<v Speaker 1>that challenge was really interesting to try to sort of capture,

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<v Speaker 1>like like from the seed to like what it developed into.

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<v Speaker 1>So you talk obviously about the origins, about Makamoto, about

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<v Speaker 1>the white paper, but you know, over the course of

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<v Speaker 1>the issue you also delve into things like decentralized finance

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<v Speaker 1>and leverage and margins. Coming out the end of this,

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<v Speaker 1>even where you say it's not possible to wrap your

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<v Speaker 1>arms entirely around the whole thing, is there one thing

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<v Speaker 1>you feel now that you understand more about why crypto

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<v Speaker 1>is than at the beginning. That's an interesting question. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>like by the words you just said, the stuff that

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<v Speaker 1>I wrote about, Like you know, part of it is

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<v Speaker 1>that I come to this from a background of in finance. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not a like a crypto evangelist or a technologist.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a person who works in finance, and so I'm

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<v Speaker 1>interested in looking at like the way that crypto has

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<v Speaker 1>both split off from traditional finance and found new ways

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<v Speaker 1>to do things, but also like recreated some of the

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<v Speaker 1>good and bad structures of traditional finance. And you know

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<v Speaker 1>I say in the piece that it recreated two eight right,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean like it had its own MANI like leveraged

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<v Speaker 1>financial crisis that has a lot of rhymes with like

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<v Speaker 1>what the traditional system did in two eight um. But

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<v Speaker 1>I mean to your question, like one thing that I

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<v Speaker 1>think that I didn't fully appreciate and and feel like

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<v Speaker 1>I appreciate more is the extent to which like people

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<v Speaker 1>in crypto feel the same way, which is that this

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<v Speaker 1>is a really fun way to build almost a toy

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<v Speaker 1>financial system that like works in a pleasing way for

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<v Speaker 1>the people who use it, and that feels like it

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<v Speaker 1>gets rid of some of the inefficiencies of the traditional

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<v Speaker 1>financial system and makes to makes it just sort of

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<v Speaker 1>more fun to innovate and to build new products and

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<v Speaker 1>to trade products. And I think that that is interesting

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<v Speaker 1>as a lens on like what crypto is for. Like

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<v Speaker 1>one thing it's for is like making financial people happy,

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<v Speaker 1>which has a value in the sense of, like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like what are the odds that you'll build like the

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<v Speaker 1>next important financial product, the next like you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>future of the banking system, the future of like risk hedging, um,

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<v Speaker 1>you know on quote unquote the blockchain versus doing it

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<v Speaker 1>in traditional finance. Well, if a lot of really smart

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<v Speaker 1>people are really enthusiastic about being in the cryptosystem, that

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<v Speaker 1>creates better odds of like doing real economic work in

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<v Speaker 1>the cryptosystem, just because like it appeals to the people

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<v Speaker 1>who are doing that work. Right, you describe it as

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<v Speaker 1>a blank canvas for all your esthetic views about how

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<v Speaker 1>markets should work, right, which is something that I think,

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<v Speaker 1>like I have a lot of aesthetic views about markets,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think that one thing that I try to

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<v Speaker 1>do in my writing is suggest that that's like a valid,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, concern that. And I think that when you

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<v Speaker 1>talk to people in crypt like they feel the same way.

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<v Speaker 1>They're like, this is esthetically cool, Like this is like

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<v Speaker 1>it is fun to work here, um in a way

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<v Speaker 1>that they didn't feel when they were at their jobs,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, in traditional hedge funds or whatever. But one

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<v Speaker 1>of the things that you managed to do in the

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<v Speaker 1>copy is there's a strong sense of like you're working

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<v Speaker 1>out a puzzle, like you're you're riddling through something that

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<v Speaker 1>seems intellectually very interesting. Do you actually like puzzles? Sure?

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<v Speaker 1>I do. You know, I do puzzle hunts, like where

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<v Speaker 1>you like go around in New York City all all night,

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<v Speaker 1>like trying to solve puzzles and like it's like a

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<v Speaker 1>scavenger hunt. But like with cryptography, and you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>do those and like everyone there works out a high

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<v Speaker 1>freakincy trading. Like the overlap between like puzzling and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>financial infrastructure is very, very large, and you know, crypto

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<v Speaker 1>obviously appeals to some of the same same dynamics. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>the idea of a puzzle is that it has kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a single solution, right, or at least a most

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<v Speaker 1>a more elegant solution than something else that somebody can

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<v Speaker 1>come up with. Do you feel like crypto solving for

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<v Speaker 1>anything in particular? I think that one thing that I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to get across is that there are like half

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<v Speaker 1>a dozen or a dozen big ways to take that question.

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<v Speaker 1>Like I think if you asked Satoshi Nakamoto what he's

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<v Speaker 1>solving for, you get a different answer from what if

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<v Speaker 1>you ask like metallic pewter and what he's solving for. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>Like there are the sort of basic building box of crypto.

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<v Speaker 1>You can say, the thing we're solving for is uh,

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<v Speaker 1>decentralized censorship resistant money flows. We want to be able

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<v Speaker 1>to like send money to each other without worrying that

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<v Speaker 1>the government of Russia Venezuela will take our money way

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<v Speaker 1>from this, or you can say we're solving for like

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<v Speaker 1>a really resilient worldwide computer that can run programs that

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<v Speaker 1>like you know, instantiate a stock exchange, rather than having

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<v Speaker 1>those that exchange like live you know, in the the

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<v Speaker 1>computers of a of a corporation, or you're saying like

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<v Speaker 1>we're solving for like allowing communities of web users to

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<v Speaker 1>like cat sure the value of that community for themselves

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<v Speaker 1>rather than give it to Facebook or whatever. Or you

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<v Speaker 1>can like have a bunch of different you know other

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<v Speaker 1>uh sort of big themes that you're trying to do

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<v Speaker 1>in crypto, and and there's sort of room for allow

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<v Speaker 1>those things. And uh so, no, I don't think there's

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<v Speaker 1>like one thing crypto is for, but I think there's

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<v Speaker 1>like a dozen things. I think some of them are

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<v Speaker 1>uh implausible you know goals, and I think some of

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<v Speaker 1>them are like bad goals. Like when I read about

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<v Speaker 1>like weeb three is going to make everyone an owner,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, everyone an investor in like the books they read,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, well that just sounds bad. Um So, I

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<v Speaker 1>think there's a lot of like you know, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think different people have different like aesthetic ue on that.

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<v Speaker 1>But like, I do think there are some goals that

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<v Speaker 1>are you know, like we're gonna build a decentralized financial

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<v Speaker 1>system that is permission lists and allows people to uh

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<v Speaker 1>like build products without like negotiating is those with with

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<v Speaker 1>six major banks before they like start building a product,

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<v Speaker 1>Like that's a that's a goal that like, I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's kind of cool, and I think there's like a real,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, sort of goal of a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>on crypto. There's also this over ching theme that of

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<v Speaker 1>everything you've described there that kind of comes down to

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<v Speaker 1>the inter relationship of trust, of money, and of community,

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<v Speaker 1>whether you trust that community with your money or not.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think if you were to use one

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<v Speaker 1>of the examples from your story and like, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>help somebody understand why you think trust and community are

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<v Speaker 1>so important in understanding crypto, what would you tell them.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that there's this sort of like folk story

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<v Speaker 1>about crypto that like it is about avoiding trusts, Like

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<v Speaker 1>people didn't like trusting banks, so uh, they invented crypto,

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<v Speaker 1>which is like trust less and uses code in lieu

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<v Speaker 1>of trust. And I think one thing that I try

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<v Speaker 1>to get across is that trust has to sort of

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<v Speaker 1>sneak in the back door somehow, right. I mean, one

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<v Speaker 1>way that it sneaks in is the obvious way, which

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<v Speaker 1>is that people are like I like, managing our own

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<v Speaker 1>private keys is hard. I'm going to trust in exchange

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<v Speaker 1>to hold my crypto for me, or like I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to trust a crypto lender to get yield from me,

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<v Speaker 1>and then like sometimes that trust is wildly misplaced. You think, like,

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<v Speaker 1>like our norms of trust that that are in the

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<v Speaker 1>background are so strong that these people who are like

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<v Speaker 1>I want to avoid trust, I'm not going to trust

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<v Speaker 1>any banks ever again, go and trust Celsius and then

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<v Speaker 1>Celsius loses their money. But the other thing is that

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<v Speaker 1>like when you sort of look at the mechanics of

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<v Speaker 1>crypto and you look at the mechanics of how blockchains work,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not like the stuff operates automatically with nobody um

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<v Speaker 1>verifying transactions or whatever. It's that it the transactions are

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<v Speaker 1>verified by the community, by a distributed community of people,

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<v Speaker 1>and it is sort of hard to get that community

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<v Speaker 1>to change its mind right to say we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>reverse this transaction that we think is bad. But it's

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<v Speaker 1>not impossible. And so like one example is, you know

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<v Speaker 1>the famous like story earlier in the history of ethereum

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<v Speaker 1>is like there's the hack of the Tao, where like

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<v Speaker 1>this early to centralized the ton of this organization got

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<v Speaker 1>it's you know, smart contract hacked and lost all this money,

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<v Speaker 1>and like the people in the ethereum community came together

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<v Speaker 1>and said that was bad. We're gonna just reverse it.

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<v Speaker 1>We're gonna just all get together and make the blockchain

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<v Speaker 1>and say something different because we think that was bad. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>So there's this notion that um Like it turns out

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<v Speaker 1>that money as a concept is kind of embedded in

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<v Speaker 1>community and embedded in in in sort of social values,

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<v Speaker 1>and you don't get away from that in crypto. You

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<v Speaker 1>do it in a different way with more technology, but

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<v Speaker 1>you still have that sort of basic need for community

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<v Speaker 1>and trust, Like you don't need money if there are

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<v Speaker 1>no other people in the ecosystem, right, And you can

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<v Speaker 1>think of money as like an objective thing, or you

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<v Speaker 1>can think of money as being a sort of social

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<v Speaker 1>credit system, where like money is like what you have

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<v Speaker 1>done for society to get the money and what society

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<v Speaker 1>owes you in exchange for the money. And I think that, like,

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<v Speaker 1>there's this notion in crypto where people like the idea

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<v Speaker 1>of it being an objective thing, where like your bitcoin

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<v Speaker 1>live in your private keys, and like no one can

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<v Speaker 1>take it away from you, and the government, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't have any say in it, and I think that

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<v Speaker 1>you see that that's not quite true, and that like

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<v Speaker 1>even in crypto money is socially determined, and like it's

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<v Speaker 1>just a different sort of social group that determines how

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<v Speaker 1>much money you have and whether you can spend it.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up, you'll hear more from Bloomberg opinion columnist Matt

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<v Speaker 1>Levine on all things digital assets. We'll be right back.

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<v Speaker 1>You have. They're both an existential and positivist definition of money.

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<v Speaker 1>How would you define bitcoin with like those same sorts

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<v Speaker 1>of parameters. One thing it was designed to do, Let's

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<v Speaker 1>give a person an ability to send digital cash without

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<v Speaker 1>using a bank. And it's not so much doing that

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<v Speaker 1>in the sense that like bitcoin is not great cash

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<v Speaker 1>because it's value is volatile. But like um, but it

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<v Speaker 1>is it's now you know, it's, as they say, a

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<v Speaker 1>story of value. It's now a nice investment commodity. UM,

0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:04.079
<v Speaker 1>it's a it's a thing that you can trade. UM.

0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:09.400
<v Speaker 1>And I just you read some Toshi Nakamoto's white paper,

0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.079
<v Speaker 1>which is from like two thousand, like early two to nine,

0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:19.600
<v Speaker 1>and you feel the sense of disappointment in the banking system.

0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.240
<v Speaker 1>How over leverage the banking system was, how much it

0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:26.160
<v Speaker 1>was built on debt, and how how like poorly that

0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:30.240
<v Speaker 1>turned out. And then you fast forward to you know,

0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.720
<v Speaker 1>this year, and you think about like all of the levered,

0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:39.400
<v Speaker 1>interconnected crypto financial institutions that were like we're going to

0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:45.840
<v Speaker 1>use loans against crypto to speculate on more crypto um,

0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.920
<v Speaker 1>And I don't know, it's just funny that like, uh,

0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:52.640
<v Speaker 1>like one one way to say what crypto, what bitcoin

0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.199
<v Speaker 1>was designed to do was it was it was a

0:12:55.280 --> 0:13:00.719
<v Speaker 1>way to have money without debt, Like debt is so

0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.880
<v Speaker 1>deeply ingrained in the modern banking system, Like your dollars

0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.400
<v Speaker 1>are just someone else's debt, Like that's what money is.

0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:09.520
<v Speaker 1>It's the debt of a bank in the first instance,

0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.120
<v Speaker 1>and that you know, the bank has debts that you

0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.680
<v Speaker 1>know holds those other people's debts. So everything is debt.

0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:16.800
<v Speaker 1>Everything is sort of dollars are built out of debt.

0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.920
<v Speaker 1>And Bitcoin was not that right, Like bitcoin was a

0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.640
<v Speaker 1>bitcoin is not someone's debt. It's just this independent thing

0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:26.400
<v Speaker 1>that exists on the blockchain. And I think that certainly

0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:29.080
<v Speaker 1>early in bitcoin's life, like that was very appealing. There's

0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:32.200
<v Speaker 1>a lot of sort of hard money, like people who

0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.200
<v Speaker 1>are suspicious of fractional reserve banking who have found bitcoin

0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:37.480
<v Speaker 1>very appealing, And I think if you look at the

0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.000
<v Speaker 1>cryptosystem now, it's like, well, there's a lot of leverage

0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.319
<v Speaker 1>in this system because like that's how you make money,

0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:44.440
<v Speaker 1>and it's I don't know, I think it's fun to

0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:46.720
<v Speaker 1>see that creeping back in For me as a sort

0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:50.000
<v Speaker 1>of person who likes traditional finance. Obviously if you lost

0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:51.839
<v Speaker 1>your money on Celsius, you don't find it that's fun.

0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.480
<v Speaker 1>There's an incredible momentum about the way that your story

0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.640
<v Speaker 1>moves forward from you know, like the white people to

0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:03.880
<v Speaker 1>where we are today and the kind of the highs

0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.040
<v Speaker 1>and lows of getting there. But it does seem like

0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.839
<v Speaker 1>a lot of crypto, as you just identified, is hell

0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:13.960
<v Speaker 1>bent on reinventing trad five. I mean part of that

0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.000
<v Speaker 1>is what I said about you know, the people who

0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.440
<v Speaker 1>worked at hedge funds were like, this is okay, but

0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.200
<v Speaker 1>I would like to make more money and have uh

0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:25.760
<v Speaker 1>like more fun, more ability to just kind of make

0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:27.560
<v Speaker 1>stuff up and like sort of like build the market

0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:29.520
<v Speaker 1>structure that I want to see rather than the one

0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.720
<v Speaker 1>that like exists on the New York Stock Exchange. Um. So,

0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:35.480
<v Speaker 1>like I think like the early phase of crypto is

0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:37.600
<v Speaker 1>very much not people wanting to reinvent trad fire. It

0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:39.600
<v Speaker 1>was people who were wanting to get out from the

0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.080
<v Speaker 1>system of trad five. But then you could make a

0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:43.640
<v Speaker 1>lot of money in it. And so all these people

0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:45.680
<v Speaker 1>who worked at hedge funds and like making money, we're like,

0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:47.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna make a hedge fund in crypto, and so

0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.480
<v Speaker 1>like it's just like it's just a sociological fact of

0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.240
<v Speaker 1>like that it's reinventing trad five because um, you know,

0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.760
<v Speaker 1>the people who come to it are people who want

0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:58.880
<v Speaker 1>to make money. But it is also like there is

0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.000
<v Speaker 1>a charming naivetite some of crypto, where like it's some

0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.440
<v Speaker 1>of the people invent in crypto are not coming from Trapfi.

0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.360
<v Speaker 1>They're coming from you know, their twenty two and they

0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.320
<v Speaker 1>just finished their computer science degree or whatever, right, and

0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:13.000
<v Speaker 1>they're like, I'm going to build like this sort of

0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.920
<v Speaker 1>exchange and like they haven't sort of seen the ways

0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:17.360
<v Speaker 1>for things to go wrong. And so some of the

0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:21.400
<v Speaker 1>leverage products are like, you know, if you work at

0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:26.200
<v Speaker 1>a bank and someone says to you, let's take some

0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:28.960
<v Speaker 1>risky assets and lower them twenty to one because we'll

0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.200
<v Speaker 1>make more money, You're like, wait a minute, I've heard

0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.440
<v Speaker 1>that one before, but if you work in crypto, you

0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:35.280
<v Speaker 1>may not have heard it before. And then like literally

0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.960
<v Speaker 1>may not have heard it before. We're not like sentient

0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:43.680
<v Speaker 1>in two thousand. Yes, as I remind myself constantly, one

0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:49.960
<v Speaker 1>of the animating impulses of crypto is ownership and monetization. Thereof, Yeah,

0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:52.320
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if that's yeah, I mean yes, but

0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.920
<v Speaker 1>it's certainly one. That's again, I want to be careful that,

0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.080
<v Speaker 1>like that's one strand. And I think you can have

0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:00.560
<v Speaker 1>sort of crypto views that are not like everything needs

0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:06.960
<v Speaker 1>to be monetized, um, but why because? Um? Because like

0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.160
<v Speaker 1>like when you say crypto, one thing you mean is

0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:14.080
<v Speaker 1>like venture capitalists on Twitter talking up their investments. And

0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.520
<v Speaker 1>if you ask a venture capitalist why everything has to

0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:18.960
<v Speaker 1>be monetized, like they'll they'll be like, what are you

0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:22.760
<v Speaker 1>talking about? Why would things not be monetized? Um? So

0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:24.520
<v Speaker 1>that's I mean, that's why answer to why? And I

0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:26.640
<v Speaker 1>don't know, I mean like I think that like there's

0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.600
<v Speaker 1>this notion of like kind of like season control of

0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:32.000
<v Speaker 1>your economic destiny. That is that is like a real

0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:33.680
<v Speaker 1>sort of like running theme and a lot of crypto

0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:35.360
<v Speaker 1>where it's like people who are like, I don't like banks.

0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:37.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't I want to make money the stuff that

0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.080
<v Speaker 1>I do on my computer. I wanted to bring value

0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.560
<v Speaker 1>to me. And I think that, um, that's part of

0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.040
<v Speaker 1>the animating impulse. The other thing is just like you know,

0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.440
<v Speaker 1>I think of like the sort of web three notion.

0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:51.920
<v Speaker 1>I do think that there is this belief that is

0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.200
<v Speaker 1>not totally untrue that there was sort of a golden

0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.000
<v Speaker 1>age of like building the Web where there was a

0:16:57.000 --> 0:16:59.480
<v Speaker 1>lot of like open protocols that people worked on in

0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.680
<v Speaker 1>their spare time in order to like let everyone use

0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.520
<v Speaker 1>email and email as this sort of like you know,

0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:08.040
<v Speaker 1>like you can have Gmail, but like the sort of

0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.159
<v Speaker 1>bones of it are just open source and everyone can

0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:13.600
<v Speaker 1>use them. Um. And then there was like a second

0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.879
<v Speaker 1>phase where Facebook was like we're gonna We're gonna like

0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.159
<v Speaker 1>make social networking a like a walled garden, and like

0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.480
<v Speaker 1>that turned out to be incredibly lucrative, and I think

0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:26.120
<v Speaker 1>that there's there's like a backlash to that where people

0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:29.280
<v Speaker 1>are like, wait, the Internet is incredibly lucrative and all

0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.040
<v Speaker 1>the value is going to Mark Zuckerberg, Like what if

0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.439
<v Speaker 1>it went to us instead? What if we found a

0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:36.960
<v Speaker 1>way to do something that looks like an open protocol

0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:41.120
<v Speaker 1>but captures money and the money goes to someone other

0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.560
<v Speaker 1>than Mark, goes to goes to Andres and Horrowitz, but

0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.679
<v Speaker 1>still like um and so I I think that's like

0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.639
<v Speaker 1>a that's like a reasonable impulse where it's like building

0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.720
<v Speaker 1>Internet protocols is incredibly valuable, but like, how can we

0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:54.480
<v Speaker 1>do it in a way where the value accrues to

0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:58.480
<v Speaker 1>the users of the protocol? Like I when I when

0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:00.639
<v Speaker 1>I push like a little on that notion, when I

0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:02.159
<v Speaker 1>think about what does it mean for the value to

0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:03.840
<v Speaker 1>recruit to the users of the product, I'm like, this

0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.040
<v Speaker 1>is all pretty annoying, but like at a high level,

0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:08.280
<v Speaker 1>I understand that impulse. It's such a pleasure to have

0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:12.040
<v Speaker 1>you on that. Thank you. You can find more of

0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.959
<v Speaker 1>Matt's opinion columns on the Bloomberg Terminal on Bloomberg dot

0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:19.480
<v Speaker 1>com or follow him on Twitter. He's at Matt Underscore Levine.

0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.480
<v Speaker 1>That's m A T. T. Underscore L E V I

0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:24.960
<v Speaker 1>N E. And of course you should check out the

0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:28.240
<v Speaker 1>special edition of the Bloomberg Business Week magazine dedicated to

0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:33.879
<v Speaker 1>all things crypto. On the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto,

0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:36.520
<v Speaker 1>what you thought there wasn't anything else we could possibly

0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.200
<v Speaker 1>say about the merge, Think again. We're gonna be talking

0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.600
<v Speaker 1>about how the biggest ever upgrades to the Ethereum blockchain

0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:45.000
<v Speaker 1>may have minted an entirely new class of crypto kingpins.

0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:51.399
<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and

0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.399
<v Speaker 1>I Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio,

0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:57.720
<v Speaker 1>visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:01.320
<v Speaker 1>you get your podcast and us your comments, questions or

0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:04.440
<v Speaker 1>suggestions for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net

0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:09.560
<v Speaker 1>or find us on twit a We're at Crypto. The

0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:13.520
<v Speaker 1>supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Verglina. Our senior

0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:18.280
<v Speaker 1>producer is Janet Babin. Our producer is Sharon Barriro. Associate

0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:22.000
<v Speaker 1>producer is Thy Butler. Desta wonder At is our engineer.

0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:27.280
<v Speaker 1>Original music by Leo Sidrin. I'm Stacy Marie Schmal. We'll

0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:28.040
<v Speaker 1>be back tomorrow