1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 2: It is extraordinary what we hide from ourselves, and even 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 2: more extraordinary that we once had her, my mother's sister, 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 2: and so many like her from everyone. Here are all 5 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 2: these pictures of nonverbal children, so pulsingly alive, their parents, 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: describing their pleasures, their passions, their strengths and styles and tastes. Well, 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 2: I know nothing, absolutely nothing of my aunt's life at all. 8 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 2: She is a thinning shadow, an aging ghost. Strange hosell them. 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 2: We think about who our parents were as people before 10 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 2: we made their acquaintance, all the dynamics and influences that 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 2: shape them, the defining traumas and triumphs of their early lives, 12 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: and show them compassion and understanding as they age. I 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: was twelve when I learned. My mother and I were 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: sitting at the kitchen table when I wondered aloud what 15 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 2: I would do if I'd ever had a desild. This 16 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 2: provided her with an opening. Her name is Adele. 17 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 3: That's Jennifer, senior staff writer at the Atlantic. Listeners of 18 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 3: this podcast might remember her from a previous Bonus episode, 19 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 3: in which we discussed her remarkable Atlantic cover story. What 20 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 3: Bobby mcelvain Left Behind, for which she won the twenty 21 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 3: twenty two Pulitzer Prize for Feature Writing. Now she's back 22 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 3: to talk about her latest Atlantic cover story, in which 23 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 3: she excavates her own family secret in a piece called 24 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 3: Those We Sent Away. Jennifer had an aunt, her mother's 25 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 3: younger sister, who was sent away to a mental institution 26 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 3: as a young child. This is a story that many 27 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 3: families share, one of hiddenness, shame, and silence that casts 28 00:01:51,720 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 3: an invisible net over generations. I'm Danny Shapiro and this 29 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 3: is a special bonus episode of family secrets, the secrets 30 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 3: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 31 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 3: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. My first question 32 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 3: is you were twelve when you learned, But if you 33 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 3: look back, was there anything that you felt was there 34 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 3: sort of hovering in the air in your family's home, 35 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 3: or anything that you know, obviously supplying retrospect and knowledge 36 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 3: to this, but still where you would say there was 37 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 3: a sense that there was something that you didn't know. 38 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: I have thought about this, and like you said, there 39 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: is this huge temptation to sort of assign and reprospect, like, oh, yes, 40 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 2: of course, I was aware of this, and now it 41 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 2: all makes sense. But there are two things that I 42 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: wrote about that did, of course lead lock into place, 43 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 2: which was that my grandfather volunteered at the Westchester Association 44 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: for Retarded Citizens. They use the word retarded anymore, we 45 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 2: should not, but that's what it was called at the time. 46 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 2: And oh, of course he was trying to parent in 47 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: a daily way indirectly. This is all he did every 48 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 2: day of his retirement because his daughter was not living 49 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 2: with him, So that made sense. My grandmother running off 50 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: to the local department store and buying Christmas presents when 51 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: we were Jewish suddenly made sense because my aunt was 52 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 2: taken to church and every Sunday and only understood Christmas. 53 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 2: I think something else that may have locked into place was, oh, 54 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: so my grandparents did want more kids. I knew there 55 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 2: was something sort of unusual about my mom being the 56 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: one and only, like there was never any good explanation 57 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: for it's very rare to comfort across only baby boomers, right, like, 58 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 2: that's not a thing. And my grandparents were young when 59 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 2: they had her. I guess in Hinze. One thing I 60 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: will say is that my mother's perfectionism and her control 61 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: and I read about this, but it had some other explanation, right, 62 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 2: that maybe she really did feel this immense pressure to 63 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 2: be good enough for two because her own grandmother very 64 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 2: artlessly said to her one day, you have to be 65 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 2: good enough for two your parents lost a child. 66 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 3: I was very struck by that detail. Your great grandmother, 67 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 3: who you referred to as you know, she meant well, 68 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 3: I suppose, and had all the subtlety of a light swatter. 69 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: And you know, your mother's thirteen years old, and your 70 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 3: great grandmother tells her that she had to be good 71 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 3: enough for two children, smart enough for two children. And 72 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 3: your great grandmother is, on the one hand, telling your 73 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 3: mother something right, which. 74 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 2: Was a gift because my mother was in the dark. 75 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: My great grandmother was truly the first person to explain 76 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: to her what had happened. Like that was, in some 77 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: weird way, its own perverse gift. It wasn't perverse. My 78 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: great grandmother leveled with her, and she was the first 79 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: person to say, this is what happened. You know, you 80 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: have an profoundly retarded sister. That was the terminology of 81 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 2: the day she was institutionalized. It was a family of secrets. 82 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 2: No one came through the front door and said this, 83 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: and then she laid this immense burden on her right and. 84 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 3: Also the burden, I mean, your mother was told that 85 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 3: her sister had gone away first to quote unquote walking 86 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 3: school because she was severely delayed in terms of her 87 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 3: ability to walk. And then you know, when is she 88 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,559 Speaker 3: coming back? We don't know. And this is very much 89 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 3: something that happened in that time, and you know, you 90 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 3: write about that so beautifully in your story, but writing 91 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 3: about medical professionals saying it's better if people don't know, 92 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 3: the instinct to protect the family, the child from knowledge, 93 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,119 Speaker 3: but in fact it's there. Your mother was working over 94 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 3: time to try to figure out where her sister had gone, 95 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 3: what was the age difference between them. 96 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 2: Born after years, I mean nearly five, so. 97 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 3: Your mom was a five year old. There's a baby sister. 98 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 3: That's the most wonderful thing in the whole world. And 99 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 3: as far as your mother was concerned, this was her 100 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 3: sister who she adored and could do no wrong. It 101 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 3: was perfect and there was no reason to think anything otherwise, 102 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 3: because whatever your grandparents were going through was being done 103 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,119 Speaker 3: quietly and a kind of you know, keeping it from 104 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 3: keeping it from your mother. You know, keeping it from 105 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 3: the child, which was what happened across the board in 106 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 3: those days, but it will leaves the child in that 107 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 3: situation is not knowing what's up, what's going on, and 108 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 3: sort of attempting to put together pieces of a puzzle. 109 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, And the question is whether it was 110 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 2: even that active. What I wonder about, like, how hard 111 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 2: was she actively trying to piece this together or was 112 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: it more like that she walked around in something between 113 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: a fog of bewilderment punctuated by stretches of overwhelming pain. 114 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: You know, she would sort of because at first, as 115 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 2: you point out, and as I say, you know, she 116 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 2: didn't have any inkling that anything was different about her sister. 117 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 4: How could she? 118 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: A five year old knows nothing. And for the first 119 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: year of my aunt's life, the doctors were insisting, the 120 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: pediatrician insisted that nothing was different about her. So it 121 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 2: took an outside pediatrician to even look at my aunt 122 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: and bluntly declared to my grandmother that she was and 123 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 2: this is a direct quote, a microcephalitic idiot. Right, My 124 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: aunt had just turned about one, and from that moment on, 125 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: my grandparents were doing a frantic circuit of all of 126 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 2: the cities specialists trying to figure out what could be done. 127 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: But my mother was kept out of this. And all 128 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 2: my mother knew was that there was adorable baby girl 129 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 2: in the playpen in the living room or in the 130 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 2: crib in her parents' bedroom, and that she had special 131 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 2: responsibilities visa her little baby sister. She had to go 132 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 2: in and see if she was napping. She wasn't. She'd 133 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 2: keep my grandmother company as she was making bottles. She 134 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 2: invented games to play with her while she was in 135 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 2: her crib. I mean, what five and a half year 136 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: old or six year old or six and a half 137 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: year old is going to have any understanding of developmental milestones. 138 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 4: In a child? 139 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 2: Like they're just not. So this all caught her totally 140 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: by surprise when one day my grandparents said, we're taking 141 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: Adele toa walking school. But I think for she just went, oh, okay, 142 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 2: walking school. 143 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 4: I guess that's the thing. 144 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 2: But you know, as a month's drag by, and she 145 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 2: keeps saying well when she's coming home, and then as 146 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 2: the years dragged by, and she one day got hysterical 147 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 2: and said, how long can it possibly take for Adele 148 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: to learn? How to walk. This was about a year 149 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 2: and a half in and my grandparents, I mean, there 150 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 2: were no books to consult, there was no language for 151 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 2: them to recruit from to explain to my poor mother 152 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 2: what was going on. I didn't look at my mother 153 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 2: and say, how actively were you trying to piece this together? 154 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 2: Like how aggressive were you in your slothing. You know, 155 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 2: my mother every time she mentions it, first of all, 156 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: it's very pained, and second of all, there's so much 157 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 2: confusion in her voice when she relives it for me 158 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 2: that it just sounds to me, frankly, like it was very, 159 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: very over whelming. And also that she sensed on some 160 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: level that asking the question was causing her parents' pain. 161 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 2: And I think she intuited early on that this is 162 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 2: a painful subject and I am going to be a 163 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: good kid. I'm not going to create any trouble. I 164 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 2: am going to behave impeccably. And even before my great 165 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 2: great grandmother very clumsily said to her, you have to 166 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 2: be good enough for. 167 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 4: Two, you have to be perfect for two. I think 168 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 4: even before. 169 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 2: That my mother probably had some sense that she was 170 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 2: going to stand sideways and get. 171 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 4: Out of the way. 172 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, it's fascinating. First of all, what children 173 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 3: are capable of absorbing without necessarily knowing or consciously knowing, 174 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 3: or certainly intellectually knowing. You know, we talk a lot 175 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 3: on this podcast about the phrase psychoanalytic phrase, the unthought known. 176 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 3: You know that with is so dangerous to think that 177 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 3: you never actually think it, but on some deep level 178 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 3: you know it. And you know, you used a phrase 179 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 3: a little while ago, the fog of bewilderment, And you know, 180 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 3: that makes so much sense to me, that fog, and 181 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 3: that's what you're describing in a way. You know, I 182 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 3: don't know, but I would doubt that your mother ever 183 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 3: sort of sat down and had a little talk with 184 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 3: herself at age nine or ten or seven of you know, 185 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 3: I'm going to be a good girl, but she internalized 186 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 3: that memo. 187 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 2: I think that's right, and I think if you want 188 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 2: to go to the unsought known, the question is like, Okay, 189 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: this is my grandparents felt like what they had to 190 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,719 Speaker 2: do because it's a source of shame to have a 191 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 2: child like this. Right, it means that either there's something 192 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: wrong with your genes, it's some kind of religious punishment, right, 193 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 2: whatever it is, for whatever reasons, and I'll you know, 194 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 2: it's the nineteen fifties. There's some imperative to assimilate. Among Jews, 195 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 2: there was probably a double imperative to assimilate. My guess 196 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: is that, like, what did they do? They nailed this 197 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 2: beneath the floorboards, right, So for my own mom, what 198 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 2: was scratching underneath the floorboards of her consciousness? Right? Like 199 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 2: what unthought known was there? 200 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 4: Right? Like she probably on some level knew something she 201 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 4: had to. 202 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: I mean, she did have other families to compare her 203 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 2: own to. And I just found out from my mother's 204 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: first cousin that somebody else in their family was pregnant 205 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: and at around the same time as my grandmother. I 206 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 2: wish i'd known this before I wrote the story. It 207 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 2: kind of kills me that I didn't. But someone else 208 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 2: in my family was pregnant at the same time, and 209 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 2: they gave birth the practically at the same time, and 210 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 2: that little girl was born and grew up in a 211 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 2: perfectly kind of typical trajectory, right, hitting all the milestones 212 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 2: and all the beat's never left house. My mother must 213 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: have put something together. And at some point the kids 214 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: in the neighborhood were gossiping and being cruel and saying 215 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 2: I heard that your sister was at reform school, right, like, 216 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 2: so who knows what kind of I didn't ask her 217 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 2: about the unthought known either. It's funny I was getting 218 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: my own cues from my mother about what was safe 219 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: to ask. 220 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 4: Truly. 221 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: It's not that I'm not a thorough going, you know, 222 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: interlocutor or you know. I asked a lot of questions, 223 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 2: but like I obviously was like being very delicate with 224 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 2: my own mom when I was talking to her. 225 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 3: Well, it makes perfect sense. I mean, it struck me 226 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 3: that there's, first of all, a really kind of uncanny 227 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 3: parallel age wise from when she found out, you know, 228 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 3: and then what I found out and when you yes, yeah, 229 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 3: I mean you were twelve when you learned and you 230 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: asked the right question, I mean, or you it wasn't 231 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 3: really a question. You were musing about what you would 232 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 3: ever do if you were to have a disabled child, 233 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 3: and it was like a seam opened, you know, within 234 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 3: your mother at that particular moment, and she just said it. 235 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 3: And that's somewhat different from whatever damn burst in your 236 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 3: great grandmother to have said that to your mother. But 237 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 3: you do find that out at the same age. And 238 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 3: there also is I think that feeling of where there's 239 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 3: great pain in a family, or a child senses that 240 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 3: about a parent, including a grown child sensing that about 241 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 3: a parent. There's this delicacy or this feeling of I 242 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 3: love you and I don't want to cause you pain, 243 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 3: so I'm not going to go there. So, for instance, 244 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 3: when you go with your mother to visit Adele, I 245 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 3: don't think it was the first time that you went, 246 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 3: but the more recent time, because you the more recent 247 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 3: time you were going both as a daughter and a 248 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 3: niece and a reporter. The first time you were that's right, 249 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 3: you were a daughter and a niece and just wanted 250 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 3: to see for yourself what was you. 251 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: Know, right, I was only twenty eight, right. 252 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 3: So but this time you had your recorder on and 253 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 3: one of the things that you note in your piece 254 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 3: is how much silence there was in the car. 255 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 4: Yep, so much. 256 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 2: Silence and also so much I mean I would have said, 257 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 2: like not denial, but God, what would be the right 258 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 2: word deflection? Maybe that's the very various two things to 259 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 2: pull me in on. And it's like the perfect transition 260 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: because exactly there I am. We have a ninety minute 261 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 2: car ride, and my mother at any point can be like, wow, 262 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: I wonder what this is going to be. Like, I 263 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 2: have not seen her in twenty one years, and I've 264 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 2: only seen her three times ever in my adult life. 265 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 2: You know, my mom went forty years with not seeing 266 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 2: her sister again. She went from age six to age 267 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: forty six and then saw her only three times, not 268 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 2: particularly successfully. You know, the visits were awkward. My Anna 269 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: was living in a different group home at the time, 270 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 2: so this is a brand new group home, and she's 271 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 2: not wondering a lot about In fact, not only she 272 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 2: not wondering a lot about this, she is talking about 273 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 2: something else entirely. She is telling me all about the 274 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 2: new necklace making project that she is embarked on. And 275 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 2: I am kind of sitting there in disbelief, like, and 276 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: my tape recorder is running, and it's not a lot 277 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 2: of like I eventually like turn it off because it's 278 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 2: just like stuff about necklaces. 279 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 4: Right. 280 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 2: It was crazy. 281 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 4: I only had about fifteen minutes conversation. 282 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 2: With her about this, right, and so I have always 283 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 2: known and I was very nervous about as seking my 284 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: mom whether to do this. Right, Like I said to her, 285 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 2: you don't have to come with me. I just truly 286 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 2: want to meet her. I really want to see her. 287 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: I want to write about her. I hope this is okay. 288 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 2: Please don't feel like this because I want to go. 289 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 2: It means that you have to go. I understand that 290 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 2: you have all of these reasons that you have decided 291 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 2: that you are going to. You know, I don't judge 292 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 2: at all, like the kind of decisions you've made around this. 293 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: This is like a defining trauma for you as a kid. 294 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: But you know, and she's surprised me by being very 295 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 2: open to it and saying, no, let's go, let's go together, 296 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 2: you know, almost like some part of her I thought 297 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 2: wanted it, But then when we got in the car, 298 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 2: I thought, no part of her wants this. I think 299 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: she was just this portrait of ambivalence, right, And it 300 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 2: made it made the reporting really us, you know, and 301 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: really hard. And I think it's one of the reasons 302 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 2: that like I did it as a reporter, because I 303 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: felt emboldened to ask slightly more challenging questions. 304 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 3: We'll be right back. 305 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 2: You know. 306 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 3: It strikes me that your mother, once she knew as 307 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 3: a thirteen year old, and also once the sort of 308 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 3: whisper campaign that must have always been there, that game 309 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 3: of telephone that happens in suburban neighborhoods or all neighborhoods 310 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 3: or among all people. 311 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 4: This is Flatbush. 312 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 2: We're talking about a serious city neighborhood. 313 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know. So eventually the kids are cruel 314 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 3: and your mother begins to say to tell people that 315 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 3: she's an only child. And it just strikes me that 316 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 3: the work emotionally and psychologically that had to go into, 317 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 3: you know, like the heartbreak of that this is what 318 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 3: I'm going to say, and this is how I'm going 319 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 3: to live. It is how I'm going to live my 320 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 3: life moving forward, because there didn't really seem to be 321 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 3: any other option. And so then all of these years later, 322 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 3: there she is, you know, in the car driving with you, 323 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:12,239 Speaker 3: and yeah, she's talking about necklaces because it's it's like 324 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 3: the thirteen year old saying I'm an only child. The 325 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 3: degree to which we have to work over time to 326 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 3: put something that won't be easily boxed up in a 327 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 3: box or under the floorboards, as you say, and the 328 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 3: courage that it takes to confront it, which it struck 329 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 3: me reading your piece, and the sort of trajectory emotionally 330 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 3: that your mother goes through. Over the course of the story, 331 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 3: it reaches a point where it is no longer in 332 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 3: any way Adele is not in a box for her anymore. 333 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 3: Adele is not a person with a diagnosis, a person 334 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 3: who was sent away and who isn't able to recognize 335 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 3: her own parents, her own sister. It becomes something else entirely. 336 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 2: Well, my mother said something very interesting to me at 337 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 2: one point, which is that she was led to believe 338 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 2: that Adele was so intellectually compromised that she was essentially 339 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 2: a vegetable. That's almost verbatim what my mother said to me, and. 340 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 4: So I think. 341 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 2: It was almost giving her permission to say, I don't 342 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 2: have a sister. My sister is not sentient, you know, 343 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 2: in the way that you can like make the decision, Oh, 344 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 2: if somebody's a vegetable, you know, like end of life care, Like, 345 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 2: why would we want to, you know, sustain some I 346 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 2: mean I really think on some level, that is the 347 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 2: way my mother was trying to think about her, even 348 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 2: though what's fascinating is that she had plenty of evidence 349 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: to the contrary. She saw this little girl who was 350 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: scooching or out in her own platepen following her when 351 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 2: my mother, you know, well, as my mother shouted here, 352 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 2: baby Adele would scooch to different corners of the crib 353 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 2: and smile or acknowledge her. So Adele was plenty interactive, 354 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 2: or certainly interactive enough, but yet at some point she 355 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 2: allowed that story, a different story to kind of become 356 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 2: the story. And my god, I don't think she was 357 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 2: a thirteen year old. 358 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 4: When she told people she was an only child. 359 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 2: I think it was starting from the time she was 360 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 2: like six and a half or seven, her her sister 361 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 2: gets sent away, and I having being completely bewildered by 362 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 2: it when people started asking, she just said, I'm an 363 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 2: only child because no one else was in the house. 364 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 4: And my suspicion is. 365 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,479 Speaker 2: That my grandparents encouraged her to say it. You know, 366 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 2: the only question if somebody asked me this recently, and 367 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 2: I was embarrassed to not know the answer, it was 368 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: a great question. I can't believe I didn't think to 369 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 2: ask my mother. In my grandmother's obituary, how many kids 370 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 2: says it say she has? And my grandmother was not 371 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: a person of any note. 372 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 4: I'm sure the. 373 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 2: Obituary that ran was the little squib that you paid 374 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 2: for right in the New York Times or in the 375 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 2: local paper. And I'm sure my mom paid for the squib, 376 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: and it would have been my mom who was in charge. 377 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 4: And the question is what decision would my mom would 378 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 4: have made? Would have made? 379 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 2: Would She has said that my grandmother had one kid 380 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 2: or two And I sat there, like completely unable to 381 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 2: answer that question. For the life of me, I could 382 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 2: not tell you. Years ago when she saw her sister 383 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: with her mother when she was already in her forties, 384 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 2: and it was like the first time she saw her 385 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 2: sister as an adult. Forty years later, she came home 386 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: and she wrote like this little mini essay for herself, 387 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 2: was saying, I have a sister. And I asked her, 388 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: why did you write that? 389 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 4: Was it? 390 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: Because it was almost like this sense of unreality and 391 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 2: you just wanted to make it real. And she said, 392 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,959 Speaker 2: I wanted to admit it to myself. This is some 393 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 2: secret that I had been hiding for all these years. 394 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 2: She used the word admit, which I think is so fascinating, 395 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 2: you know, like it was a confession of some kind. 396 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 3: To herself in a way. I mean the tagline for 397 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 3: this show is the secrets we keep, the secrets sircut 398 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 3: from us, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. And 399 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 3: I always find the most fascinating, strange, uncanny, resonant kind 400 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 3: of secrets, the ones that we are somehow able to 401 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 3: keep from ourselves until we no longer can. 402 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 2: That was what she did. I mean, she had this 403 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 2: clan DestinE sibling, you know, and it was she she 404 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 2: was keeping this knowledge from herself. 405 00:23:58,560 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 4: I think on some. 406 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 2: Level in order to function. I mean, I think it 407 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 2: must have been too hard to process otherwise. But she 408 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 2: told me something very interesting that I had for a 409 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 2: long time in my story and then ultimately cut because 410 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: she was so ambivalent about it. But for your show, 411 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: and for you, just because you're so psychoanalytically inclined, you'll 412 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 2: find this whole internal debate that she had about it fascinating. 413 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 2: She said to me that when she was in psychoanalysis 414 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: in her early twenties, my mom, her psychoanalyst, said to her, 415 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: do you think that as a child you walked around 416 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 2: in terror that if you did anything wrong you would 417 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: also be sent away, that you would also be sent 418 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 2: to the equivalent of walking school. If your grades weren't 419 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 2: good enough, or if you didn't hit a particular milestone, 420 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: if you were clumsy in sports, if you were this 421 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 2: for you or that, you know, would you have been 422 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 2: sent away? And I grew up with my mother telling 423 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 2: me that she believed this, that she thought and like 424 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 2: if she wasn't good enough, she'd be sent away. That 425 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 2: she labored under this misapprehension. And I brought this up 426 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 2: with her in the car and she said, oh, you 427 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 2: know what, I think. I think my shrink was wrong 428 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 2: about that. I think my psychoanalyst is wrong. I don't 429 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 2: really think so. I don't think I was a perfectionist 430 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 2: for that reason. It probably had much more to do 431 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 2: with like what nanny said to me. You know that 432 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 2: she told me that I'd be good enough for two 433 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 2: But I don't think I ever really feared that I'd 434 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 2: be sent away. But maybe her psychoanalyst was right. I mean, 435 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 2: I don't know. You know, my mother is clearly not sure. 436 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 2: At some point when I was younger, that was the 437 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 2: story I was told by her, but she recantidate when I, 438 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: you know, asked her in the car. She had that 439 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 2: she thought that her psychoanalyst's hypothesis was right, and she 440 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: didn't even present it to me was when I was 441 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 2: a young woman as her psychoanalyst's hypothesis. She said, so, 442 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 2: you know, I had this sister who was sent away, 443 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 2: and so I was definitely afraid when I was a 444 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 2: kid that if I did anything wrong, I would be 445 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 2: sent away. And when I brought this up there in 446 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: the car, she said, well, I'm not sure that's true. 447 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 2: It was my psychoanalyst who came up with this as 448 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 2: an idea, and I think you just put it in 449 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 2: my head and it sounded very tidy, and it sounded 450 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 2: very plausible. But you want to know what, I'm not 451 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 2: sure it's right. 452 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 3: I mean, in the absence of, you know, actual fact 453 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 3: checkable knowledge, these are narratives that we can supply right. 454 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 3: So for a period of time in her life, that 455 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 3: was the narrative she supplied correct, and then later in 456 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 3: her life it became no, I don't think. I don't 457 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 3: think that was it, which seems very right to me 458 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 3: in terms of the way that our stories and our 459 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 3: memories and our relationship to whatever the you know, to 460 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 3: whatever is at hand shifts and changes over the course 461 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 3: of our lives. Absolutely This was, from the standpoint of 462 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 3: what we understand today, just shockingly common in the nineteen forties, 463 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:05,479 Speaker 3: prop nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties if a family had a 464 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 3: child who was severely disabled intellectually, you know, and or physically, 465 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 3: that they would be sent away and there were and 466 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 3: never spoken of again and erased. And there were famous 467 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 3: examples of people who did this, ranging from the Kennedys 468 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 3: to Arthur Miller and pearlss Buck. This was what was 469 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 3: considered the thing that you did. And some families dealt 470 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 3: with that as a secret differently than others, or the 471 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 3: secret sort of comes out in certain I mean Miller 472 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 3: never wanted to write about it, would never wanted to 473 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 3: talk about it. 474 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 2: It was never visited. 475 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 3: And never visited. And pearlss Buck ends up writing about 476 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 3: it in her memoir. She writes, I felt as though 477 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 3: I were bleeding inwardly and desperately. So Buck faces head 478 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 3: on at a certain point, just the absolute agony of 479 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 3: you know, what it is to institutionalize a child, and 480 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 3: so it ranges. But I think what all of the 481 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 3: families of that time of sort of post war America, 482 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 3: and as you say, the shame of having a child 483 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 3: who is severely disabled. There's just this feeling that this 484 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 3: is what you do, and the doctors and their white 485 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 3: coats and their certainty, and the way that doctors were 486 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 3: seen at that time as being god like. So one 487 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 3: of the things that I'm wondering about your piece begins 488 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 3: with your husband telling you to read this tweet that 489 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 3: went viral. And the tweet is by someone who he 490 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 3: writes about his son, who is his twenty fifth birthday. 491 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 3: He's never said a word in his life, but has 492 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 3: taught me so much more than I've ever taught him. 493 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 3: And this tweet goes viral and your husband points out 494 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 3: to you, and you're scrolling through and you're reading some stuff, 495 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 3: but it doesn't occur to you right away why you're 496 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 3: going down the rabbit hole other than wow, this is 497 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 3: really interesting that this tweet went viral. And I find 498 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 3: that so fascinating that it took you a bit right 499 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 3: to realize why your husband had pointed out that tweet 500 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,719 Speaker 3: to you and why you were immersed in the story. 501 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 2: So one important thing to point out the reason that 502 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 2: went viral is because there was a lot to read 503 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 2: in response to the tweet. What happened was that tweet 504 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 2: unleashed this outpouring from parents all over the world of 505 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 2: pictures of their own nonverbal or minimally verbal children, so 506 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 2: that what I was scrolling through was picture after picture 507 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 2: after picture of these beautiful kids, some young, some old, 508 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 2: some full fledged adults, whether much older parents or their siblings. 509 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: And some were joyous and some were goofy, and some 510 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 2: were silly, and some were serious, and some were bad 511 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 2: as I mean. 512 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 4: It really ranged these pictures, but. 513 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 2: What they all had in common is that, like, the 514 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 2: kids were all super characterful, right, they were all just 515 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 2: these pulsingly alive portraits. And yeah, it is weird because, 516 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 2: like everyone in my family, I had been trained to 517 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 2: sort of not think about this. It took me about 518 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: a half an hour of scrolling before I went, oh, 519 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: my god, there is somebody in my family who meets 520 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 2: this exact description. And the difference is that I don't 521 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: know her, and I don't have a single picture of 522 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 2: her nothing, and there's been no pictures that I've ever 523 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: seen for her. And in fact, when we had to 524 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 2: find art for this story, you know, the art department 525 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 2: was saying, do you have any pictures of her from 526 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 2: when she was a baby? Or anything. My mother didn't 527 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 2: think she had a single picture of Adele and lo 528 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 2: and behold there was one of my grandparents and her, 529 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 2: and it's in the story. 530 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 4: It's the only thing there. 531 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been staring. I've been staring at it while 532 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 3: we're talking. 533 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's and like, what's so interesting 534 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: about it is like my grandmother looks so impeccably turned out. 535 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,479 Speaker 2: She's got her you know, her Sunday best on. I mean, 536 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 2: she's got the hat and the nylons and the lipstick, 537 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 2: you know, and my my and her and my grandfather 538 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 2: was very happy and relaxed with you know, Adele in 539 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 2: the middle. And uh, what you were saying. 540 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 4: Too about that wide range. 541 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 2: I mean my grandparents visited her every weekend. They they 542 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 2: didn't just sort of send her away. My my grandparents 543 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 2: had fallen in love with their child and were shattered 544 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 2: to be told that the best thing for her was 545 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: to be put, you know, in an institution that was 546 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: and and the justification was always it's not just that 547 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 2: it wasn't just that it was best for your family, 548 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 2: that it was best for the remaining sibling, which looking 549 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 2: at my mother, I mean it would have been very 550 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 2: hard to have somebody like a Dell around. But I 551 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 2: don't know whether it was best for her. I think 552 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 2: an open question. There certainly wasn't the infrastructure to sort 553 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 2: of take care of Adele. Would have taken a lot 554 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 2: of work on the part of the family, and they 555 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 2: didn't have any money. They couldn't have had sourced this 556 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 2: but her care. You know, they couldn't have had Brown 557 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 2: Mclock custodial care, which Adele may have needed. But they 558 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 2: also said that it was best for Adele, which it 559 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 2: most certainly was not. This was this like gothic mansion 560 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 2: of horrors. I mean, it was terrible Willowbrook where she 561 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 2: was ultimately institutionalized. But if you're going to look at 562 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 2: the broad spectrum of like people in denial, you know, 563 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: who never saw their kids and never talked about them, 564 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 2: like Arthur Miller, to people like Pearls Buck, who very 565 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 2: bravely wrote about their children. And by the way, her memoir, 566 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 2: she wrote a whole memoir that was just about that. 567 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: It wasn't a memoir about her life. She wrote a 568 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 2: memoir only about having a child. It was about that 569 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 2: called the child who Never grew, and it was about 570 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 2: the pain of institutionalizing her, which and she waited until 571 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 2: she was nine nine, and when she was in Japan, 572 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 2: everybody thought, like, what, you're gonna put her in an institution. 573 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 2: Nobody there did that. Americans did that. Americans did that. 574 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 3: That's interesting. Yeah, yeah, that's a whole other subject. I 575 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 3: mean that makes me wonder about the nature of how 576 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 3: we how we think of family, or how we think 577 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 3: of generations. 578 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 2: And we'll we do it with very elderly, right, I mean, 579 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 2: we do it with it. I mean it's terrible. 580 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 3: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 581 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 3: There's a wonderful photograph in your piece, just amazing, of 582 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 3: your mother and Adele on the day of that visit, 583 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 3: not the nineteen ninety three visit, but the visit when 584 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 3: you're starting to report this piece in. 585 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 2: Twenty twenty one. 586 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 3: Your mother has she has an n ninety five mask 587 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 3: that she's pulled down so that you can see her face, 588 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 3: and she and Adele are standing together, and on the 589 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 3: one hand, they couldn't look more different. Adella is much smaller, 590 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 3: and your mother looks like she could walk, you know, 591 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,919 Speaker 3: out the door and straight into you know, lunch at 592 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 3: you know, a lovely restaurant and Adele doesn't. But they're 593 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:34,240 Speaker 3: both wearing red sweaters, and they're both wearing the aforementioned 594 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 3: beaded necklaces because each of them has gotten into beating. 595 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 4: At the exact same time, Yeah, at the. 596 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 3: Exact same time in their lives. And there also are 597 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 3: so many other similarities between them. They both needle point, 598 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 3: they both are neat freaks, they're both musical, and all 599 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 3: of this kind of keeps on merging. What did that 600 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 3: feel like for you during that visit? You know, on 601 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 3: the one hand, you have your your reporter's hat on, 602 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 3: and at the same time you are a daughter and 603 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 3: a niece and a member of a family who is 604 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 3: experiencing this kind of amazing moment. 605 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I nearly died. I mean, do you remember that 606 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 2: very famous New Yorker story about twins and they were 607 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 2: looking for the first time. I think it's the Minnesota 608 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 2: Twins study where they were looking at trying to string 609 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 2: a part nature and nurture and looking at twins who'd 610 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 2: been separated, and there were all these stories of like, 611 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 2: you know, brothers who hadn't seen each other for forty years, 612 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 2: and identical twins and they'd meet up and they would 613 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 2: both be wearing yellow eyes odd shirts, and they both 614 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 2: had ex wives named Gail. And you know, I mean, 615 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 2: I'm making this up, but you know, nutty stuff like that. 616 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 2: I felt a little bit like I was looking at that. 617 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 2: Also that those darn necklaces, which were like the bane 618 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 2: of my car ride, Like moms stopped talking about the 619 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,919 Speaker 2: necklaces suddenly, that it becomes like the most salient thing 620 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 2: because there is Adele wearing a necklace that she's made, 621 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 2: while my mother has a necklace. 622 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:11,919 Speaker 4: That she's made. 623 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 2: And the first thing that we get, we're shown in 624 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 2: her bedroom is like the drawer full of all the 625 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: necklaces she's recently been making, you know, and that's a 626 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: photo illustration in the magazine. I mean, it kind of 627 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 2: blew my doors off, you know. I couldn't believe what 628 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 2: I was staring at, and that they both were wearing 629 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 2: these this bright red The thing that really killed me though, 630 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,399 Speaker 2: was that they're both musical, Like it would be okay, 631 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 2: you know, my grandfather was in the Greek Club. There's 632 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 2: a story about him, like having been in the same 633 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 2: Greek club as like Frank Sinatra, you know, like okay, 634 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 2: so they're musical, right, Like, maybe that's in the family. 635 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 2: Maybe there's like some kind of constellation of jeans that 636 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 2: coach for that sort of thing, even like being you know, 637 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,399 Speaker 2: fuxing with your hands, needle pointing and making necklaces. Even 638 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 2: that I kind of grock. But the fact that they 639 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:07,240 Speaker 2: are neat freaks. Like, on the one hand, I was like, Okay, 640 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 2: So I always assume that my mom was highly controlled 641 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 2: because she had been traumatized and as a consequence, you know, 642 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 2: she deeply traumatized. 643 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 4: As a kid, her sister gets. 644 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 2: Spirited away, no explanation, it's not discussed, and my mother 645 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 2: makes some unconscious decision for the rest of her life 646 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 2: that she is going to control everything within her power. Right, 647 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 2: And then they meet Adele, and Adele wants to control 648 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 2: everything within her power. And not only that, but they 649 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,959 Speaker 2: are controlling everything in the exact same way. It all 650 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 2: revolves around the kitchen. If you get up to try 651 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 2: and clear the dishes and bring them into the kitchen, 652 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 2: my mother will like rush you out of the kitchen 653 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 2: because she is the only one who knows how to 654 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 2: load the dishwasher, and she is the only one who 655 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 2: knows where things go. If you try and make a salad, 656 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 2: she will start instructing you about the oward away to 657 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 2: cut cherry tomatoes. My mother has like really fixed ideas 658 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 2: about cherry tomatoes, you know, like she's got a cherry 659 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 2: tomato philosophy. And you know, I mean so and that 660 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 2: is Adele. You know, like glasses have to face a 661 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 2: certain way, right, like just everything nothing can be out 662 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 2: of place. She gets very agitated things are like not 663 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 2: just so. And I thought, what is there like a 664 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 2: protein coating for this, Like what is going on? And 665 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 2: I thought, Okay, it must just be like it must 666 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 2: just run in the family, right, even though I don't 667 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 2: remember my grandmother or my grandfather particularly being this way. 668 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 2: And then the daughter of the woman who was like 669 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,839 Speaker 2: the mama bear in the house where Adele lived. And 670 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 2: so the daughter says to me one day, she knows 671 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 2: Adele very well, right, she knows all the residents of 672 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,359 Speaker 2: the house very well, she says to me, because I'm 673 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 2: telling her, like it's so weird that they're both me 674 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 2: pretty excited to assume that my mom was like a 675 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 2: need free because she was born of trauma. This is 676 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 2: a trauma related trait. And the daughter says to me, well, 677 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 2: how do you know that Adele wasn't traumatized? Maybe it's 678 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 2: born of the exact same thing. And I sat there 679 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 2: in Chasten's silence for like eight seconds. You can just 680 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 2: hear eight seconds of nothing on my table order, right, 681 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 2: like just me going oh yeah, oh my god. You know, 682 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 2: because of course I am sure that all of those 683 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 2: years of living in these hellish institutions, right, I mean, 684 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 2: she lived in Willowbrook, which was exposed by Heraldo Rivera 685 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 2: in They're in nineteen seventy two as being just and 686 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 2: RFK visited it in sixty five and called it a 687 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:52,880 Speaker 2: hell hole. It was just this horrible place, people walking 688 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 2: and wailing, naked on the floor, all everybody understimulated. It's 689 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 2: reeked of urine and feces. Not only unhygienic, there was 690 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 2: just it wasn't a school. It was built as a school, 691 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 2: it wasn't a school. There was nothing there and nothing 692 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 2: for the reason it's to play with, nothing for them 693 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 2: to do all day and only two you know attendants 694 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,800 Speaker 2: per you know floor for like you know, one person 695 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 2: for eighty people or fifty people. You know, they were 696 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 2: force fed quickly. I mean it was just there was ghastly, ghastly, 697 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 2: and then my aunt was moved from there to a 698 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 2: different institution and it was just as bad and just 699 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 2: as grim And that's where my aunt lived. And I 700 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 2: don't know what I mean. In addition to just being 701 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 2: underloved and underprotected and understimulated, she may have been physically abused. 702 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 2: She may have been sexually abused. 703 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 4: I mean, we don't know. 704 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 2: We know nothing. She can't explain it or convey it. 705 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 2: All we know is that every so often my aunt 706 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 2: would say stop that you're hurting me. She would scream it. 707 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 2: And they thought all the doctors were training her thought, well, 708 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,839 Speaker 2: she must be psychotic, this is some kind of auditory hallucination. 709 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 2: But why wasn't that just PDSD. Why wasn't she just 710 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 2: re experiencing trauma? You know, who knows. I mean, maybe 711 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 2: she was just having like a horrific memory. 712 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 4: When she shouted stuff like that. 713 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 2: These similarities between my mom, like the meat nick stuff, 714 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:29,280 Speaker 2: the control stuff, it might just be trauma related stuff. 715 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I'm not a need nick. I mean, 716 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 2: you know, I'm like the Oscar Madison to my mother's Felix. 717 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 2: And by the way, just talking about the generational stuff 718 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:40,959 Speaker 2: people were sent away. 719 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 4: Right through the. 720 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 2: Seventies, this continued, This just kept on going. It really 721 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 2: wasn't until the eighties that people would even countenance the 722 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 2: idea of keeping neurodiverse kids at home, and that the 723 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,359 Speaker 2: infrastructure first kind of became available where you know, day 724 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,879 Speaker 2: programs were available and where I don't know. I think 725 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,720 Speaker 2: it was probably in the nineties that kids were mainstreamed 726 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 2: into public schools. The public schools started taking them. I 727 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 2: don't know when, but at some point the states started 728 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:17,440 Speaker 2: providing free occupational therapy and physical therapy and speak therapy. 729 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 2: It took a long time for you know, anything like 730 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:22,240 Speaker 2: the infrastructure. 731 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 4: To be born. 732 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 3: No, it's one of the ways I can count on 733 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,240 Speaker 3: one hand one of the ways that our world has improved. 734 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 2: Now. 735 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 3: I really want people to read your piece and not 736 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 3: to tell the whole story of it. But there were 737 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 3: no diagnoses. There was no sense that there could be 738 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 3: or should be diagnoses. It was like one big basket 739 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:49,319 Speaker 3: of a catch all for beyond hope, beyond redemption or 740 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 3: difficult right. 741 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, like like you know, filled with some kind of 742 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 2: panic or anger that can't be expressed right, something. 743 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 3: Right, and that needs to be managed by sedation and 744 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 3: by sort of these extreme measures that make any kind 745 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,880 Speaker 3: of real developmental progress absolutely impossible. You know, And a 746 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 3: really moving part of your story is that it occurs 747 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 3: to you that you might be able to get an 748 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 3: answer to what in fact was responsible, what mutation, what 749 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 3: genetic mutation, what condition was responsible for Adele's being, you know, 750 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,240 Speaker 3: as as developmentally impaired as she was. You do find 751 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:45,160 Speaker 3: out that she has a very very rare genetic mutation. 752 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,359 Speaker 3: And at the time you discover this, there are only 753 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,840 Speaker 3: twelve people on record who have been diagnosed with this, 754 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 3: and then you know, over the course of even just 755 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 3: your reporting this piece, there start to be more people 756 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 3: diagnosed with it. The condition is called Coffin Cyrus syndrome twelve. 757 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 3: And then you do something that I found so moving 758 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,560 Speaker 3: and so fascinating, which is you want to meet a kid, 759 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:17,840 Speaker 3: you know, someone growing up today, someone being raised in 760 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,240 Speaker 3: a very very as different from the way that Adele 761 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 3: spent her life as is imaginable, and just see what 762 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,759 Speaker 3: the difference might be if a child is raised with 763 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 3: all of the possible interventions and therapies at her disposal. 764 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 4: That's right, and it was positively bittersweet. 765 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's the thing, Jen, I mean, there was 766 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 3: this moment that was just like guided me, which was 767 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 3: after you've met this girl and her family, her mother. 768 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 3: There's this line in your piece, which is I thank 769 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,640 Speaker 3: Grace and Emma for the gifts and head out to 770 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,200 Speaker 3: my rental car. I'd last maybe thirty seconds before losing it. 771 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,359 Speaker 2: This little girl was just outside Kansas City and her 772 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 2: parents adopted her. They had fostered her originally and then 773 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 2: decided to adopt her. They'd fallen in love. My grandparents 774 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 2: had fallen in love and done the opposite. They'd given 775 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 2: their little girl away. And what is amazing is they 776 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 2: hand me these presents and then Emma gives me a 777 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,800 Speaker 2: picture for me to give to my aunt and her mother, 778 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 2: who's just this force of nature, looks at Emma and says, 779 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:41,480 Speaker 2: do you remember why you drew this picture for Jennifer? 780 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,959 Speaker 4: Do you remember why you drew a picture for her aunt? 781 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,520 Speaker 2: And Emma, who, of course, because she's benefited from all 782 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:53,800 Speaker 2: of these early interventions, can speak in full sentences unlike 783 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 2: my aunt. And she says, oh, yes, it's because her 784 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:05,839 Speaker 2: her aunt has trouble in school like me and her 785 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:07,960 Speaker 2: mother says, that's right, and she says, do you know 786 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:12,320 Speaker 2: what your what her aunt has? And what I thought 787 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 2: she was going to say was she has coffin cyrus 788 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 2: syndrome twelve, just like you. And that's not what her 789 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 2: mother said. What her mother said was she also has 790 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 2: parents who couldn't take care of her, but found to 791 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 2: her a place where someone else can take care of her, 792 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 2: just like you. And I just thought, but my grandparents 793 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,160 Speaker 2: could have taken care of her if they had all 794 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 2: the same resources at their disposal. Not only could they have, 795 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 2: they would have desperately wanted to, because they, like pearl 796 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,879 Speaker 2: as Buck, were waiting inwardly and desperately. But they had 797 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:56,680 Speaker 2: no choice. They had to give her away. And they 798 00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 2: were being told to for the good of the baby, 799 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,279 Speaker 2: for the good of my mother, for the good of 800 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,480 Speaker 2: the whole family, by all of these authoritative, granite fased doctors. 801 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,239 Speaker 2: And here is my grandma, a working class woman, no 802 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 2: college education, who just swallows hard and says, okay, I 803 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 2: mean it just killed me. It just it broke me 804 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 2: into a thousand pieces. I mean I just sat in 805 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,080 Speaker 2: the car and started the ball, you know, I mean 806 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 2: it was so hard, I mean and too. It's credit, 807 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 2: you know. I told my editor about it. I told 808 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,839 Speaker 2: him about the moment, and he cut me off before 809 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:32,719 Speaker 2: I even finished it, and he said, how long did 810 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 2: you last before you burst into tears? How unfair is 811 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 2: all of this? 812 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 4: You know? 813 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,640 Speaker 2: You just you weep for everyone involved, for my aunt, 814 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,240 Speaker 2: for my mom, for my grandparents. We are no longer year. 815 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:48,319 Speaker 3: Jen, thanks so much. This has been a really remarkable 816 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,480 Speaker 3: and powerful conversation. 817 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 4: I feel the same way. 818 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 2: I just feel so lucky to have somebody like you 819 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,279 Speaker 2: asking me questions. This kind of conversation is just so 820 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,799 Speaker 2: different from me any kind of conversation I have had 821 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,640 Speaker 2: or will have with anyone else. So just thanks for 822 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 2: this project. 823 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:08,880 Speaker 4: I feel like it's a gift. 824 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 2: You know, it's a big g. 825 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,279 Speaker 3: This was a special bonus episode of Family Secrets. As 826 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,400 Speaker 3: we work on the next season, which will drop in 827 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,480 Speaker 3: early November, keep an eye and an ear out for 828 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,720 Speaker 3: more special bonus content. Thanks for listening. 829 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 830 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:52,760 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.