1 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Thoughts Podcast. 2 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Wisenthal. 3 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: Joe, what would you say the most fundamental tenant of 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: economics is? 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: Wow? 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: Yeah? Sorry, I started with the big question. 7 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: I don't know, it's not fair. What do you say this? 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: Well, it has to be growth, right, Like the whole 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: point is to generate economic growth. 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean if you were saying, like, okay, like 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 2: what Ultimately you can fight about how best to measure 12 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 2: growth and there's like no one statistic that will ever 13 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 2: give you the answer of like is this economy doing 14 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 2: well or not? You can never reduce it that much. 15 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 2: But on some level it does seem like the gauge 16 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 2: of a successful policy, right is how much the economy grows? 17 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I know there have been you kind of 18 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: alluded to it just then there have been various attempts 19 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: in time to gauge economic well being in slightly different ways. 20 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: So I remember it didn't it was Bhutan. 21 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 2: I think what happened to the happiness and you never 22 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 2: hear about it? 23 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: Is that not on the terminal? We need to look, 24 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: we need to get it on there. If it's not 25 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: but there is this fundamental question over what should be 26 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: the goal of economics and ultimately the economy, and is 27 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: it simply economic growth or could we be asking for 28 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: something a little bit more right? 29 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 2: And we're always like fighting about this implicitly, which is okay, 30 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 2: Like should we trade growth for greater equality? Should we 31 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 2: sacrifice some growth for more environmental sustainability? Perhaps? Like they 32 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 2: are all these like should we trade growth for like 33 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 2: better job quality or whatever? But if fundamentally growth itself 34 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: is always taken for granted as being per se a good. 35 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: Thing, absolutely, And I'm glad you mentioned the climate just then, 36 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: because of course, when you think of economic growth, so 37 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: much of it is tied into consumption, and if consumption 38 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: is becoming a problem from an environmental perspective, then obviously 39 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: you would want to reduce that, which would presumably be 40 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: a hit to economic growth. So all of this is 41 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: a way of saying that today we are going to 42 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: explore something that's very, very different to traditional thinking around economics. 43 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: We're going to be looking into something called the d 44 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: growth movement. 45 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 2: So does that mean GDP like the goals of shrinking? 46 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, negative GDP. 47 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: All right, let's learn more about it. 48 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: And we really do have the perfect guest. We're going 49 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: to be speaking with Noel King. She is, of course, 50 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: the host of Vox's daily news podcast Today Explained, and 51 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: she's releasing a four part series called Blame Capitalism, and 52 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: one of the episodes is all about this thing called 53 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: the de growth movement. So let's check in with her. Noel, 54 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on all thoughts. 55 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 3: I'm a big fan you guys. Thanks for having me. Noel. 56 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: Maybe just to begin with, you know, I sort of 57 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: teased that we are going to be talking about the 58 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: d growth movement, but what is this exactly? 59 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,119 Speaker 3: I will tell you what D growth is, but first 60 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 3: I want to tell you that I have a good 61 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 3: friend who just got back from vacation in Bhuta, and 62 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 3: the first thing I asked her was is everyone super happy? 63 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 3: And she's an economic supporter, so she got it immediately 64 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,399 Speaker 3: and she said, I didn't see a lot of homelessness, 65 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 3: I didn't see a lot of poverty. People did seem happy, 66 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 3: but I did see a lot of small farmers, like 67 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 3: people who look like they are, you know, farming for 68 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 3: a living and not going to do much better than that. 69 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 3: So anyway, the happiness index is something I too, am 70 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 3: really obsessed with when it comes to D growth. If 71 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 3: you ask economists who believe in D growth who ascribed 72 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 3: to it, what they're going to tell you is it's 73 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 3: not a very well defined thing, and we really want 74 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 3: to avoid terminology that scares people, and de growth is 75 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 3: a word that scares people. But I did come across 76 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 3: a very good definition. It's from the economic anthropologist Jason Hickel. 77 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 3: He wrote a book in twenty twenty called Less is 78 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 3: More that I've seen described as like the Bible of 79 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 3: D growth. And here's what Jason Hickel says. He calls 80 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 3: D growth quote a planned reduction of energy and resource 81 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 3: use designed to bring the economy back into balance with 82 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 3: the living world in a way that reduced is inequality 83 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 3: and improves human well being. A lot of that sounds 84 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 3: really good. I think the word that is almost designed 85 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 3: or destined to trigger people in economics is planned, right, 86 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 3: planning to shrink and who's going to be responsible for that? 87 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 3: So that's that's what de growth is. It's saying we 88 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 3: have gotten big enough and now is the time to 89 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 3: get smaller. They're not calling for like a catastrophe like 90 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 3: we saw during twenty twenty. I remember being on air 91 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 3: when COVID hit and I remember saying, this is the 92 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 3: worst you know, these are the worst jobs numbers since 93 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 3: the Great Depression, and I could not believe those words 94 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 3: were coming out of my mouth. I was like, this 95 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 3: is a catastrophe. What Jason Hickel and other de growths 96 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 3: would say is right, right, right, But that was entirely unplanned. 97 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 3: We didn't expect COVID. The way to do this is 98 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 3: take it in hand and make it happen deliberately. 99 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 2: So it's interesting, like what strikes you is that you 100 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 2: know this idea of planned and when I hear that, 101 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: it's like, well, like, you know, we're actually one would 102 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: argue that much of the world is embrace planning of 103 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: some sort. In the US is increasing, it's sort of 104 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: like active industrial policy, and China has seen extraordinary success 105 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: and a sort of you know, big over the decade 106 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 2: material standard of living with a large part of the 107 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,239 Speaker 2: economy on some level planned. To my mind, the question 108 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: is why do we need less growth or less economic 109 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 2: activity to bring the sort of ecosystem or environment into balance, 110 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: Because some would say we can do both, right, we 111 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 2: can have growth, but also we can find ways to 112 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: decarbonize the economy, other ways that the growth can be 113 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 2: more sustainable without just having less activity. 114 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 3: And there are something like thirty three countries in the 115 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 3: world now that have managed to do that, that have 116 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 3: managed to decouple their growth from their carbon emissions. And 117 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 3: this was a big story. I remember the economist drant 118 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 3: a story in twenty twenty two and it was like, hey, guys, 119 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 3: we haven't been making attention, but look at what's been 120 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 3: going on. And I think that's actually kind of an 121 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 3: extraordinary success. I think what Degrowthers would say is this, 122 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 3: this is a belief that has a very interesting history. Right, 123 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 3: So I'm going to take you back to the late 124 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 3: nineteen sixties, Americans other people worldwide, Europeans have started becoming 125 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 3: concerned about what is happening to the environment, and they 126 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 3: start asking themselves questions like, what's going to happen if 127 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 3: we just keep on this trajectory. This is also around 128 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 3: the time that the Population Bomb the book comes out 129 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 3: and it predicts that if we keep reproducing, we're all 130 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 3: going to starve to death. Right, there's this very like 131 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 3: Malthusian kind of vibe in the air. So a think 132 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 3: tank called the Club of Rome forms in Rome. It 133 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 3: is founded by an industrialist and an economist named Aurelio Pitchai. 134 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 3: I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. This in nineteen sixty eight, 135 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 3: he invites some leading thinkers, economists, physicists, chemists, other kinds 136 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 3: of academics into a room and he says, let's map 137 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 3: out what's going to happen if we keep growing the 138 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 3: way we're growing. Right, So four of them go back 139 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 3: to MIT, which is using very early but very very 140 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 3: good computer technology, and they sort of feed scenarios into 141 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 3: the computer. What happens if we keep repricing at the 142 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 3: same rate, What happens if we keep eating at the 143 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 3: same rate, What happens if we keep clearing forests at 144 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 3: the same rate. And they keep coming up with really 145 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 3: bad news. The planet will be burning, we will not 146 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 3: have enough, we will all starve to death. They write 147 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 3: this book called The Limits to Growth in nineteen seventy two, 148 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 3: and shockingly, you guys the New York Times, I thought 149 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 3: this was like a pamphlet. Okay. When I first started 150 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 3: studying this, I was talking to the d growths and 151 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 3: I got the sunset like, Okay, they're playing it up 152 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 3: a little bit. It's probably like a pamphlet that people got, 153 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 3: you know, that got handed out in the street. The 154 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 3: New York Times reviewed this book in nineteen seventy two. 155 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 3: There is an old review online and it is very 156 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 3: critical of the conclusion, and it acknowledges that, you know, 157 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 3: these guys are using computers and this is a new 158 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 3: thing and that's very important in statistics. But then it 159 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 3: says like there's been dumerism for a long, long, long 160 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 3: long time, and this just seems like more doumerism. So 161 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 3: from there you have this movement of people. The Club 162 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 3: of Rome seems fascinating to me right like it's an 163 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 3: informal think tank. They meet a couple of times a year. 164 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 3: We have a website now, and they for the past 165 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 3: fifty years have continued to bang this drum and have 166 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 3: continued to say, if we keep going along these lines, 167 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 3: we're going to burn ourselves out. They will use words 168 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 3: like suicide, you know, very very colloquially. And if you 169 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 3: look at what's happening with climate change now and with 170 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 3: stories about glaciers melting and forest being raised, it does 171 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 3: sort of seem like back in nineteen seventy two. They 172 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 3: predicted quite a bit in the way we think about 173 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 3: the environment now, which is we are all very concerned 174 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 3: about it and we don't really have ways to fix it, 175 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 3: they would argue. 176 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: So you sort of touched on it in that answer there, 177 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 1: But talk to us about who I guess the ringleaders 178 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: of the de growth movement are now, Like, who is 179 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: spearheading this effort? And do you get the sense that 180 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: it's resonating perhaps in twenty twenty three in a way 181 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: that maybe it didn't in the nineteen seventies. 182 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 3: So I'll tell you something really funny. I was trying 183 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 3: to book this show, you know, get these people to 184 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 3: talk in the month of August twenty three. Guess what 185 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 3: goes on in the month of August for Deep Growths vacation, vacation. 186 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: Like all month from the life show Funny. 187 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 3: I did four series in this I did four episodes 188 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 3: in this series about capitalism, and everybody was very easy 189 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 3: to reach, except for the have it all figured out 190 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 3: amatic Yep, they're like, I will be gone until September seventh. 191 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 3: It was actually really great. That's exactly right. So a 192 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 3: couple of names, you're going to be familiar with Jason Hickel, 193 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 3: the economic anthropologist I mensioned who wrote the book Less 194 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 3: is More. You will be familiar with the name Herman Daly. 195 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 3: Herman Daily was an advocate of steady state economic growth. 196 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 3: He passed unfortunately. I believe it was late last year. 197 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 3: There is a gentleman named Dirk Phillipson. He's a professor, 198 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 3: a Duke and economic historian. He wrote a very good 199 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 3: book called How GDP Came to Rule the World, which is, 200 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 3: you know, an argument against taking GDP, as you said 201 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,719 Speaker 3: in your intro, taking GDP as the fundamental underpinning of 202 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 3: our economy. There's a really interesting guy named Tim Jackson, 203 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 3: also an economist, identifies as an ecological economist. That was 204 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 3: not a term I had encountered until I started reporting 205 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 3: on this. And Kate Rayworth, the famous one who wrote 206 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 3: the book Doughnut Economics in twenty seventeen and caused a 207 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 3: big stir. Now. I don't know if Kate identifies as 208 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 3: a d growth, but they certainly identify with her. We 209 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,599 Speaker 3: looked for the physical center of the movement. There's a 210 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 3: lot of activity in Barcelona. There's an economist whose name 211 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 3: I Hope. I pronounced correctly. Georgis Callis. He's a Greek guy, 212 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 3: And it does seem like they're mainly concentrated in Europe, 213 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 3: which you know you might expect, but these are people 214 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 3: who know each other, who speak to each other. And 215 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 3: to your question about is this more popular now, yeah, 216 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 3: I really think it is one of the things that 217 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 3: I couldn't help. But notice is suddenly around twenty twenty two, 218 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, everybody has a d growth piece, right, 219 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 3: So The New York Times is interviewing Herman Daily, the 220 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 3: man who has been arguing for five decades that we 221 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 3: should stop obsessing overgrowth, and has gotten a lot of respect. 222 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 3: I mean, he's not a crackpot. The New Yorker has 223 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 3: on Cassidy writing, is prosperity possible without growth? And I believe? 224 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 3: Twenty twenty twenty twenty one, and then just a few 225 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 3: months ago follows up with Bill mckibbon is it time 226 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 3: to take de growth seriously? In The Financial Times? Martin 227 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 3: Wolfe the Great, the esteemed columnist too. I'm sure we 228 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 3: all read he recommends as one of his top books 229 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 3: of the year. Jason hickeles less is more about de growth? 230 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 3: So I definitely think we are starting to see this 231 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 3: permeate in a real way. And I think it's probably 232 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 3: because so many of us are very worried about what's 233 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 3: happening with the environment, with the ecology. But I actually 234 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 3: think there is another reason for this, and I can 235 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 3: speak about what happened to me personally when I started 236 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 3: reading about de growth. If you guys don't mind, go 237 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 3: for it, yeah, I started to agree with them. I 238 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 3: started to full on agree with them. My dad had 239 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 3: worked on Wall Street in the nineteen seventies, before financialization, 240 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 3: before securitization, so before there was real money. But he 241 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 3: walked away from Wall Street in his early forties really 242 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 3: hating Wall Street, and he told us as kids, you know, 243 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 3: money isn't everything, and you should never work in this 244 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 3: life just to get money. It was like one of 245 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 3: the most firmly ingrained things in my brain from the 246 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 3: time I was four or five years old. So I 247 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 3: grow up and I'm a journalist, and journalists don't care 248 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 3: very much about money. But then I moved overseas and 249 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 3: I started covering conflict in African nations. I was a 250 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 3: war reporter, and I was looking at what happened when 251 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 3: a country like Sudan, where I was based for a 252 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 3: long time, didn't have an economy to speak of, and 253 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 3: then suddenly Sudan discovers oil in additional places, and all 254 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 3: of a sudden, there's roads and there's bridges, and there's towers, 255 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 3: and so from that point on, I looked at growth 256 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 3: somewhat suspiciously, but I was able to see, like, Okay, 257 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 3: this is the real world impact. Right. A person who 258 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 3: dropped out of school at nine or ten because of war, 259 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 3: because of conflict, because there was no money, and then 260 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 3: the oil boom happens, and this guy is sending his 261 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 3: kids to college. I can't think of a more perfect 262 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 3: encapsulation of growth, right. What it means for real people 263 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 3: when an economy grows, And yeah, it means things for 264 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 3: CEOs too, It means things for fat cats. But if 265 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 3: you're an ordinary person, it means a lot for you 266 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 3: as well. And so I've been very pro capitalist in 267 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 3: my thinking, but like everyone else, I've been really concerned 268 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 3: about what is happening to the environment. But along come 269 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 3: these de growths, and they look at society in a 270 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 3: very philosophical way, and they ask questions like, are we 271 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 3: really happy with all this stuff we have now. The 272 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 3: guy in Sudan who was sending his kid to college, 273 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 3: he's very happy, was sending that kid to college. Do 274 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 3: I need all of the things that I have? And 275 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 3: that's what really made me start thinking about where do 276 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 3: I shop and how do I shop? 277 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 2: Ideological rebellions happened from time to time, particularly after crises, 278 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: and so I think like ten years ago this time, 279 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 2: maybe eleven or twelve years ago, you know, we had 280 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 2: Occupy Wall Street is probably an agglomeration of a lot 281 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 2: of things. It was targeted banks, there was a lot 282 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 2: of that was some of the early talk about debt 283 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 2: cancelation and student debt cancelation. Does this feel like a 284 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 2: distinct from that or is it sort of like this 285 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 2: ankst that many people feel about inequality and the economy? Like, 286 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 2: is this the sort of current manifestation of a sort 287 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 2: of underlying anst that ten years ago or eleven years 288 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 2: ago presented as the occupy movement? 289 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 3: I think it's both. I think that is a great question, 290 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 3: and I think it's both. And I'll tell you why. 291 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 3: You guys, remember there was a time when we didn't 292 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 3: all talk about capitalism, right, it was just the system 293 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 3: and we talked about bosses, we talked about banks, but 294 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 3: like I was an economics reporter, I never once to 295 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 3: use the word capitalism on air. Something did change, and 296 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 3: it was seeing people in culture spaces start talking about 297 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 3: capitalism that made me, like about six years ago, go 298 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 3: what the hell is going on? Why are my cool 299 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 3: friends in the zeitgeist talking about it and I'm not 300 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 3: talking about it on air. So we did a bunch 301 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 3: of research and we started seeing, to your point, the 302 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 3: point in US history that we all started talking about capitalism. 303 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 3: It was first the Tea Party and then it was 304 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 3: Occupy Wall Street. Right, these two movements emerge together and 305 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 3: suddenly we are hearing, we're hearing the sea word capitalism 306 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 3: all the time. The Tea Party and Occupy were very 307 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 3: very carefully tied to the financial crisis, and they were 308 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 3: two very different movements that wanted different things, but they 309 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 3: absolutely wore a reaction, they absolutely wore backlash. And d 310 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 3: growth strikes me much the same, it really does. It 311 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 3: strikes me much the same. But the financial crisis at 312 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 3: a certain point ended. I think what it's gonna take. 313 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 3: And the financial crisis ended, and the young people are 314 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 3: still out there yelling about capitalism. We see that in 315 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 3: Pugh service. Every year they take a new Every year 316 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 3: or two, Pew does a new round of data on capitalism. 317 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 3: And every year you see the young people a little 318 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 3: bit less, a little bit fewer, a little bit fewer 319 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 3: have faith in it. Right, So the financial crisis ended, 320 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 3: but this is a long tail of us doubting capitalism, 321 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 3: the environmental problems that the world is facing. And these 322 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 3: are things you know, I see in my daily life. 323 00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 3: I'm a big hiker. I like to go out west. 324 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 3: These are things that I see my daily life. I 325 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 3: don't know that they end the way the financial crisis ended. 326 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 3: I think they have an equally long tale. And so 327 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 3: I do wonder. I mean, I said to Dirk Phillips 328 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 3: and the economic history, and I said, look, you know 329 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 3: that an American president or an American politician could never 330 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 3: get elected on a platform of de growth. And he mentioned, 331 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 3: and I can't believe I didn't see it coming. He 332 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 3: mentioned Rfk's famous speech in Kansas, and I believe it 333 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 3: was nineteen sixty eight when he talks. RFK talks about 334 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 3: GDP not measuring the health of our children, the happiness 335 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 3: of our children, the health of our waters. You know 336 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 3: how sane we all are. And he said, you know, 337 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: Dirk Phillipson tells me, as far as I understand it, 338 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 3: RFK may very well have been elected president, right, And 339 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 3: it was one of those moments where I was like, 340 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 3: I don't have an answer for that. I actually don't 341 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 3: have an answer for that. It's a really interesting point, 342 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 3: and I'm not going to clap back at you because 343 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 3: I want to think about it for a while. And so, yeah, 344 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 3: I to your point is this just is this a blip, 345 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 3: is a furious blip? Maybe it very well might be. 346 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 3: Many things are furious blips. But if we continue seeing 347 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 3: what climate change is doing to us, I could see 348 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 3: this having a bit of a longer tail. And the 349 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 3: thing is, you never know what the kids are going 350 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 3: to do a generation from now. You just don't. 351 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: You know, Tracey, you know the other speech you know 352 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 2: that I'm thinking about too, which is like there is 353 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 2: some you know the Carter in the Carter gave the 354 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 2: famous Malaise speech where he like talked about the quote 355 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 2: erosion of our confidence in the future, and that was 356 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 2: like at a time of high inflation, but it also 357 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: sort of got at this idea that like there was 358 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: a president who's sort of like talked about like maybe 359 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 2: we need some like societal reset. 360 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've seen sort of glimmers of this theme at 361 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: various points in time, but no one has actually like 362 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: enunciated it as a de growth movement, at least in politics. 363 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: But I want to ask, you know, move away from 364 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 1: the US for a second, Noel. You mentioned your experience 365 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: in the Sudan. You know, developing countries will probably have 366 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: a different view of economic growth and progress than a 367 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: lot of the developed world, and they're certainly in a 368 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: different position. How does the de growth movement take them 369 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: into account? And how does it tell people to think 370 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: about you know, when are you big enough? 371 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 3: They certainly do take the developing world into account. I 372 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 3: mean you would imagine so, right. It's the type of 373 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 3: person whose mind instantly goes the de growth is the 374 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 3: people as who are part of this movement. I feel 375 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 3: like de growther is slightly pejorative. The people who are 376 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 3: part of this movement are the type of people who 377 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 3: are wired to think about the developing world. And so 378 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 3: when I push them on that, I mean I brought 379 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 3: up Sudan in interviews and what they would say, is 380 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 3: it's not Sudan that needs to stop growing. It's the 381 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 3: United States, it's Western Europe. It's not like we've had 382 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 3: our time, but it is we have enough. We have 383 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 3: to decide that we have enough. And Sudan doesn't, and 384 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 3: Molly doesn't, and much of the African continent and much 385 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 3: of the developed world doesn't, and we have to be 386 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 3: okay with letting them grow, and we have to work 387 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 3: with them to make sure that they are growth is 388 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 3: greener than our growth was through industrialization right and into 389 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 3: the present day. So this is not a movement. And 390 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 3: again this is why I find them sympathetic. It's very 391 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 3: easy for me to dismiss people who have never thought 392 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 3: about Sudan as somebody who lived there for three years 393 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 3: and covered that country for three years. If you haven't 394 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 3: thought about Sudan and you're making some big grand point, 395 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 3: then I've got some things to say to you. And 396 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 3: so it was fascinating to hear them say, oh, no, no, no, 397 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 3: we're not saying that these countries that need to grow 398 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 3: are the problem. We're asking about the manner in which 399 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 3: they grow. I mean Sudan and its oil money. That's 400 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 3: not a great thing for degrowths. However, it is a 401 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 3: good thing for impover Sudanese people. And I think what 402 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 3: they would almost certainly say is let's get the impover 403 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 3: Sudanese people up out of poverty. Right. But yeah, they 404 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 3: have taken the developing world into account, and the prescription 405 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 3: to me seems to be it's the developed world that 406 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 3: has to change. 407 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 2: An economist a sort of mainstream economist, and I would 408 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 2: probably be a sympathetic to this view, But a mainstream 409 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 2: economist would listen and say, the error that's being made 410 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 2: is the assumption that there is a finite amount of growth, 411 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 2: and that it's the role of the developed world to 412 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 2: step back and allow for more growth to be allocated 413 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 2: to the developing world. And obviously, you know, the US 414 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 2: consumer is a big source of demand for goods made 415 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: all around the world. A lot of growth comes, people 416 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 2: would argue, comes from trade and relationships and networks, et cetera. 417 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 2: And that the US would and the developed world would 418 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: not be doing any favors to poorer countries to retrench, 419 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: to buy less, to consume less oil, to consume less food, 420 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 2: to consume less crops, to consume fewer manufactured goods that 421 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 2: are made in the developed world. It seems like on 422 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 2: some level there's like a fundamental rejection of this assumption, 423 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: or there's this fundamental belief that, like there is only 424 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 2: so much pie to go around, and that the developed 425 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 2: world needs to take less in order for the developing 426 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 2: world to have more. 427 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. I mean, I don't that point you 428 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 3: just made about what an economist would say about the 429 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 3: way the world works. I don't think they have great 430 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 3: answers for that. I think that's why they tend to 431 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 3: focus on what should we be doing in the US 432 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 3: and what should we be doing in Western Europe? Right, 433 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 3: Because it's easy to tell me, Noel King, just stop 434 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 3: eating meat, and I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm on board 435 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,479 Speaker 3: with that. It's much more difficult to say Americans in 436 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 3: general stop buying products that are exported from Sudan. Actually 437 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 3: don't think we have many exports many imports from Sudan. 438 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 3: But you know what I mean, Like it is this 439 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 3: thing where on an individual level, it makes a lot 440 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 3: of sense to me. But when you start talking about 441 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 3: a globalized world, a globalized economy where we're all really interconnected, 442 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 3: I mean, there's a gloss on that. They can gloss 443 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 3: over that, but fundamentally, what you find yourself wanting, what 444 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 3: I find myself wanting at the end of the day 445 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 3: is like, just tell me how this would work. And 446 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 3: I think I didn't get a good answer in this series. 447 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 3: I didn't get a good answer. I got some good 448 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 3: individual things. You know, an end legislate, an end to 449 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 3: planned obsolescence, right, my iPhone will last for fifteen years, 450 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 3: not three, the way Apple wants it. To eliminate advertising 451 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 3: in city centers. Paris, France loves the de growths. Paris 452 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 3: has actually gone about eliminating advertising, as I understand it, 453 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 3: in certain parts of the city, and they love that, 454 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 3: and they look at that and they say like, look, 455 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 3: this is a moment for us. But I mean, I 456 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 3: think if you look at the world the way it 457 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 3: is now, it's very hard to see how any of 458 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 3: this becomes policy. It just seems to me like it's 459 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 3: going to become individuals making choices that, of course, at 460 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 3: the end of the day, don't add up to very much. 461 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: I can see the argument for individuals. So you know, 462 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: for instance, you make the personal decision to stop eating meat, 463 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: and I can even see an argument. You know, in 464 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: some respects for governments, maybe they legislate certain things obviously 465 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, rules around pollution and production and things like that. 466 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 1: But what do you what do companies do in the 467 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 1: D growth world? Because really, you know, the idea of 468 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: maximizing shareholder value seems to be at complete odds with 469 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: the idea of, you know, shrinking economic growth. 470 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 3: You are absolutely right, the again a real world problem 471 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 3: here is and in the D growth materials I've read, 472 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 3: what's really interesting to me is companies are not often mentioned. 473 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 3: We have a lot of history, we have a lot 474 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 3: of philosophy, we have a lot about government, unless it 475 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 3: is something really specific like Apples should make iPhones that 476 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 3: last fifteen years, which fine, I think that's a great play. 477 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: That sounds fantastic. Let's do that, right, go for it. 478 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 3: But you're right, many of us in the West are implicated. 479 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 3: Is often viewed as a bad word. I don't viewed 480 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 3: as a bad word. We're all implicated in shareholder capitalism. 481 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 3: I was telling a friend about d growths and she's 482 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 3: got a heart, she's like a real caring woman, and 483 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 3: she said, here's the problem. I have two daughters and 484 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 3: I need their five twenty nine their college funds. I 485 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 3: need them to grow until these girls are eighteen, because 486 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 3: I'm going to have to pay for college someday. And 487 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 3: when you are up against that, you know, I wish 488 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 3: I could have put her in a room with Dirk 489 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 3: Phillipson or with Tim Jackson. And I imagine what they 490 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 3: might say is, couldn't your daughters go to community college? 491 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 3: Couldn't your daughters go in state? But that is fundamentally 492 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 3: at odds with the way human beings work these days. 493 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 3: And these are people who have a very like positive, 494 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 3: very positive notion of what human behavior could be if 495 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 3: we were not all convinced that we're in competition with 496 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 3: each other. And one of the things that's interesting about 497 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 3: them is they do believe human nature has been perverted 498 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 3: by capitalism, so that we do think we need more, 499 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 3: We do think my house has to be nicer, my 500 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 3: car has to be nicer, when in fact we're just 501 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 3: being fed that. So there's a lot of stuff that 502 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 3: you would have learned you would have come across in college. Right, 503 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 3: But again, the question of what do we do with 504 00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 3: companies that actually need to engage in shareholder capital, And 505 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 3: because so many of us are invested in the stock 506 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 3: market and like need it to retire. I mean, at 507 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 3: a basic level, I don't retire if the stock market 508 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 3: doesn't grow, or I retire under a bridge, and so 509 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: this is this is where again I would think that 510 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 3: this movement probably probably has a lot to say about 511 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 3: individual behavior that many people in the future might find 512 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 3: and even even in the near future might find really 513 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 3: really compelling. But I can't really see a CEO sitting 514 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 3: down with any of this material and being like, oh, yeah, 515 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 3: that's a great idea. 516 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,959 Speaker 2: Right, there's a limit to regardless of the structural changes 517 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: we may want to make, whether it's environmental that like 518 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 2: individual agency or one firm community. I just have one 519 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 2: last question, and I want to go back to your 520 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 2: point about how like in the developing world, places that 521 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 2: have gotten a lot richer thanks to globalization, exports growth 522 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 2: has been generally seen as a good thing, and many, 523 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 2: very few people would dispute that, Like, you know, if 524 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 2: it resonates in Europe, it resonates in the US with 525 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 2: a certain subset of the pop So people might listen 526 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 2: to this and say, like, it's not really about capitalism, 527 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 2: it's not even really about the environment. It's about some 528 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 2: sort of like deeper spiritual malaise, like we're lonely people. 529 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 2: When you mentioned the iPhone, Actually where I thought you 530 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 2: might we're gonna go is like we spend hours on 531 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 2: a day looking at screens and it seems to be 532 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 2: making people lonelier and we have less interaction with other 533 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: people Like that seems to be well known and you 534 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 2: know people have like families later in life and so forth. 535 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 2: Like how much does it feel like is it really 536 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 2: about GDP, is really about carbon or just sort of 537 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 2: a reaction to this sort of I don't know, like 538 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 2: spiritual crisis. Some might say that there's in a rich 539 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 2: Western countries. 540 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 3: You're speaking my language and you've put your finger on 541 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 3: something really, really, really important. I think a big appeal 542 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 3: of degrowth is about this sick feeling that a lot 543 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:53,719 Speaker 3: of us have that we have a lot of stuff, 544 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 3: that we're doing good. We have roofs over our heads, 545 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 3: we have cars, we can buy food, we have what 546 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 3: we need, but we don't really know when enough is enough. 547 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 3: And I think that's why it spoke to me. In 548 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 3: all honesty, that's why it spoke to me. It made 549 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 3: me question what is enough? And if somebody in another 550 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 3: part of the world can do better, if I have 551 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 3: a little bit less, is it worth it for me 552 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 3: to have a little bit less? And the answer that 553 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 3: I came to is, yeah, no doubt it is. You know, 554 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 3: I think in the seventies and the late sixties and seventies, 555 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 3: it was about it was just about the environment. I 556 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 3: really do believe that. I think people weren't as malaised. 557 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 3: Forgive my language, forgive my inventing words. I think people 558 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 3: weren't as spiritually sick as many of us do feel now. 559 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 3: They weren't as lonely, they weren't as divorced. And I 560 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 3: think d growth speaks to the current moment in part because, 561 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 3: as you said, it's less about the economy and more 562 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 3: about as an individual, do I feel like capitalism has 563 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 3: worked for me? And one of the things that we 564 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 3: really try to trace in this series is that it's 565 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 3: a vibe. The revolt against capitalism is a vibe more 566 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 3: than it is anything else. It is people being sick 567 00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 3: and fed up and feeling like they're being screwed and 568 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 3: feeling like they're lonely. And there's student debt, and then 569 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 3: you have a bad job and then you don't have 570 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 3: a pinch at anymore. Like all of these things really 571 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 3: really really make us anxious, And if we were not 572 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 3: anxious about those things, with something like d growth, would 573 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 3: it appeal as much. No, I don't think you'd need 574 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 3: this kind of philosophy. I think there would still be 575 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 3: people advocating it. But I think the reason as a 576 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 3: as a philosophy, not as an economic argument, but as 577 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 3: a philosophy. The reason I think it works is because 578 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 3: these are exactly the times that we're in. That's probably 579 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 3: why you didn't hear much about de growth in the 580 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 3: nineteen eighties and the nineteen nineties. It's a very twenty 581 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 3: twenty three phenomenon here, right, All right, Well, the series 582 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 3: is Blame Capitalism. 583 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,719 Speaker 1: Go check it out on vox and Noel, thank you 584 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: so much for coming on the show to explain d 585 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: growth to us. Appreciate it. 586 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 3: Thank you guys so much for having me. 587 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: This was really fun, Joe. That was interesting but also 588 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: depressing because I feel like I feel like all of 589 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: this makes sense, but at the same time, like economic 590 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: growth and technological progress, and like the drum beat of 591 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: more consumption is just almost this runaway train that it 592 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: feels like no one actually has control over. 593 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess what my view is that 594 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 2: I'm skeptical that people doing less or consuming less will 595 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 2: make other people better off. That that that, you know, 596 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: I'm skeptical of like the idea that like, okay, if 597 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 2: like people there we work less or buy less, et cetera, 598 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 2: that that means that there is going to be some 599 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,719 Speaker 2: pot of stuff or activity or things that then get 600 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 2: allocated to someone else and makes someone better off what 601 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 2: I do buy And it was sort of she touched 602 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 2: on it. Noel touched on it in that last answer, 603 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 2: is that like on an individual basis, I'm not surprised 604 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 2: that more and more people feel like they need like 605 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 2: some individual recent right, not necessarily on a policy standpoint, 606 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: but like individual reset regarding consumption or diet or meet use, 607 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 2: et cetera. And you see that, and so I guess, 608 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 2: like it makes sense to me that like, more and 609 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 2: more people feel like they need something like that in 610 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 2: their life. 611 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: Well, the other thing I would say is it almost 612 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: feels like an absolute versus relative gains problem. And I think, 613 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: you know, you're almost getting into I guess human philosophy here, 614 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: But it feels like people are always going to benchmark 615 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: themselves to the person or people nearest to them, you know, 616 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: and so and so I that dynamic seems really hard 617 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: to get out of. 618 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 2: Well, and I think people benchmark themselves to the year before, right. 619 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. 620 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: So it's like, I mean, you people do not want 621 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 2: to have for very understandable and I'm you know, a 622 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: nice people, I mean myself and this too, like people 623 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 2: don't want to have declining material experiences, right right, Like 624 00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 2: you know, it's one thing to say, Okay, I want 625 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 2: to like slow down, and people obviously get to stages 626 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 2: in their life where they like feel they need to 627 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 2: buy less stuff or work less or consume less, et cetera. 628 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 2: But buy and large like people like to have that choice, 629 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: and people like to be able to modulate that. But 630 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 2: I don't think people like having the feeling imposed on 631 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 2: them that what I have or what you know is 632 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 2: cost more next year or I have less than that. 633 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 2: That being said, you know, there may be you know, 634 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 2: there could be an argument that like climate does impose 635 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 2: this sort of like hard limit on consumption in some way, 636 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 2: and then it's interesting. 637 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the other thing I would say is, like, 638 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: clearly there is this sense of on we is a 639 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: nice way of putting it, but maybe impending disaster would 640 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: be another way of putting it as well, which pure 641 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: GDP figures just do not take into account. Right, So 642 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: you know, the US economy going up one or two 643 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: percent per year is not capturing the decrease in life 644 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: expectancy for some people or just general dissatisfaction with life. 645 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 2: Tase, can I tell you a secret? I'm just saving 646 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 2: I've never said this to you before, and I'm saving 647 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:04,959 Speaker 2: it to the end of the episode. 648 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: WHOA. 649 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 2: I'm kind of like I've been like a dumer all 650 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 2: my life, Like I going back, like even like when 651 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 2: I was in high school and stuff like, I've always 652 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 2: sort of been convinced that like some big societal shoe 653 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,479 Speaker 2: to drop is like right around the corner. 654 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: Wait, I thought you used to say you were short 655 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: term pessimistic, long term optimistic. 656 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 2: Uh, maybe I am sort of Well, I sort of 657 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 2: mean that there's always some disaster around the corner, like 658 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 2: short term, like I always think we're like on the 659 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 2: doorstep of something bad. Over time in my life, I've 660 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 2: realized that I'm normally wrong, which is like, you know, 661 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 2: sort of like trying to balance that out. But I 662 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 2: am always of this view that like something bad is 663 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 2: always right around the corner. 664 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: See I'm short term optimistic and long term pessimistic. I 665 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: think we kick the can down the road for the 666 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: next year or two. We always find a short term solution, 667 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: but eventually it's all going to come to a head. 668 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 2: Well, well, we'll check back in a few years. See 669 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 2: who's right. 670 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: Check back in the next century, and you know, see 671 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: who's right. Okay, shall we leave it there. 672 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 2: Let's leave it there. 673 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: This has been another episode of the Odd Thoughts podcast. 674 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. 675 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. 676 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 2: Follow our guest Noel King, She's at Noel King. Follow 677 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 2: our producers Carman Rodriguez at Carmen Arman, dash Ol Bennett 678 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 2: at Dashbot, and Moses Adnan, and follow all of our podcasts. 679 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: Is Bloomberg under the handle at podcasts, and for more 680 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 2: odd Lots content, go to Bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots. 681 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 2: We have transcripts, a blog in a newsletter, and check 682 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 2: out our discord Discord dot gg, slash odd. 683 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: Lots and if you enjoy Odd Lots, if you like 684 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: us talking about shrinking GDP, then please leave us a 685 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: positive review on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening 686 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 2: Behind it.