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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to work in Progress,

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Speaker 1: where I talked to people who inspire me about how

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Speaker 1: they got to where they are and where they think

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Speaker 1: they're still going. Oh my progress, there's Today is an

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Speaker 1: exciting day. Valerie Plane is here. Valerie is a former

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Speaker 1: career covert CIA operations officer, casual who's now running for

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Speaker 1: Congress in New Mexico. She's a badass. Valerie's name became

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Speaker 1: public in two thousand three when her then husband, former

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Speaker 1: Ambassador Joe Wilson, wrote an article challenging the Iraq War

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Speaker 1: narrative and calling out the lies that our government was

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Speaker 1: telling us, which then caused Valerie's name to be leaked

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Speaker 1: to the public in retaliation. This created a life threatening

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Speaker 1: political scandal which was filled with character assassination campaigns, defamation, harassment,

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Speaker 1: and worse. It was fascinating to talk to Valerie about

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Speaker 1: this whole experience, how they made it through the firestorm,

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Speaker 1: and the parallels between what happened to her then and

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Speaker 1: how our current administration is treating whistleblowers today. She told

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Speaker 1: me how she originally got into the CIA, what that

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Speaker 1: process was like. I mean, at least she shared everything

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Speaker 1: that's not still classified, and why she's decided to get

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Speaker 1: back into the public eye and run for Congress. Valerie

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Speaker 1: is incredible and I can't wait for you to hear

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Speaker 1: this discussion, and if you live in New Mexico, I

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Speaker 1: can't wait to see you on her campaign trail. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for being willing to do this. I

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Speaker 1: think that your story is so incredible, and I think

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Speaker 1: to speak to what we were just discussing a bit

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Speaker 1: before we began our interview. You've had this incredible career

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Speaker 1: in the United States intelligence community, You've worked for government,

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Speaker 1: You understand the stakes in ways that so many people

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Speaker 1: simply do not. And I think your perspective also as

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Speaker 1: a woman in these arenas that have historically been run

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Speaker 1: by men in this country is fascinating and what you've

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Speaker 1: been subjected to obviously because of that, is wild. So

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Speaker 1: thank you for coming with with with pleasure. And it's

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Speaker 1: been quite a journey. And I'm sure you saw that

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Speaker 1: great photograph where Nancy Pelosi is standing up wagging her

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Speaker 1: finger across the cabinet table in the Roosevelt Room at

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Speaker 1: Trump and it's all white men, old white men. She

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Speaker 1: is the only woman at that table, or at least

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Speaker 1: in that photograph. You know, we just came out like

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Speaker 1: a week ago. Anyway, there's much to work to be done.

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Speaker 1: So she's she's the only adult in the room who's

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Speaker 1: in ashing this sort of mafia rule we're experiencing right now,

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Speaker 1: which is wild. But before we before we get into

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Speaker 1: your career, I always like to go back and ask

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Speaker 1: people if they were at all the way they are

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Speaker 1: now when they were children. I'm curious, you know, were

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Speaker 1: you were you a tiny My mom describes me as

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Speaker 1: a little Joan of arc in the cradle, just wanting

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Speaker 1: to fix things. Were you were you like that? Were

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Speaker 1: you on a mission to to protect and serve and investigate?

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Speaker 1: And how how did how did it all come about

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Speaker 1: at all? I come from a family public service. My

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Speaker 1: dad was an Air Force officer, a career you served

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Speaker 1: in World War Two in the South Pacific. My mother

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Speaker 1: was a public school teacher, and my brother was a

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Speaker 1: Marine who served in Vietnam. He was wounded there. So

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Speaker 1: there was definitely this notion of public service. And so

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Speaker 1: when I was asked to join the CIA, I really

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Speaker 1: jumped at the opportunity because it seemed like a way

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Speaker 1: to be able to do that, to continue to that

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Speaker 1: that that was something noble, that was something to aspire to.

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Speaker 1: I definitely did not grow up thinking I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be a spy. I had no idea it was a

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Speaker 1: something you could do. I do remember reading a man

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Speaker 1: called Intrepid about William Stevenson somewhere where I was ten

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Speaker 1: eleven twelve. It was about World War Two and the

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Speaker 1: Enigma machine and all the espionage that revolved around that,

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Speaker 1: you know, between the Access Powers and the Allied Powers,

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Speaker 1: and that was intriguing, but it's I can't say, oh

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Speaker 1: it set me on the path. It was completely haphazard.

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Speaker 1: I only knew I think I would. It's fair to

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Speaker 1: say I didn't want what I guess you would call

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Speaker 1: traditional or conventional life. I always knew I wanted to explore,

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Speaker 1: live abroad, travel abroad. I did my undergraduate work at

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Speaker 1: Penn State, which was, you know, the quintessential school for

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Speaker 1: college just but I also and it was great, I

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Speaker 1: loved it, But I also also could not wait to

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Speaker 1: get the hell out of central Pennsylvania and begin my

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Speaker 1: plan B, if I had not gotten into the CIA,

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Speaker 1: was to apply to Peace Corps for the same thing

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Speaker 1: that there's a streak of idealism, a curiosity about people,

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Speaker 1: and of course the draw of the exotic. Wow. And

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Speaker 1: as a kid, when you talk about wanting, as I

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Speaker 1: think so many people do, to get the hell out

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Speaker 1: of dodge wherever it is that they've grown up. What

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Speaker 1: what drew you? What did you see? Where did you

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Speaker 1: want to go? Did you did you have postcards of

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Speaker 1: places or posters on your walls of places that you

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Speaker 1: wanted to see? I traveled a lot with my parents

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Speaker 1: growing up. We traveled what's called space a lot, which

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Speaker 1: means you just kind of weighed around until the cargo

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Speaker 1: plane has three empty seats, so my parents and I

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Speaker 1: would jump on and go wherever it was going. Uh

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Speaker 1: So I had traveled quite a bit, and I just

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Speaker 1: knew I wanted more of it. My parents we very

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Speaker 1: very modest, very middle class, but the extra money they

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Speaker 1: did have was always spent on travel. And from an

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Speaker 1: early age I understood that people can live in a

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Speaker 1: completely different way, in a completely different culture, and it

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Speaker 1: was just fine. It was just different than what you

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Speaker 1: were used to. And I think that was that, looking back,

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Speaker 1: what a gift they gave me. And so and a

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Speaker 1: curiosity about people. So when I joined the CIA, it

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Speaker 1: was very much, very clear that the bad guys were

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Speaker 1: the Soviets and the good guys were the Americans. That

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Speaker 1: was a bipolar world, and that felt like I wanted

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Speaker 1: to be on the good guide side. And over time

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Speaker 1: what developed was my expertise in the new on the

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Speaker 1: nuclear threat, and I that felt good too, because it

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Speaker 1: felt meaningful. Oh my gosh, I can't wait to get

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Speaker 1: into that. There's something that you said, though, that I

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Speaker 1: have to reiterate. I love that that you said that

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Speaker 1: your experience is traveling with your family as a kid

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Speaker 1: showed you that people could live in different ways and

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Speaker 1: that all of those ways were okay. Because I think

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Speaker 1: so many of us, just with the way society works,

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Speaker 1: have been taught to fear what we don't know, and

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Speaker 1: this fear of the unknown. We see having these mass

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Speaker 1: ramifications of mothering of people who don't look like us

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Speaker 1: or live like us. And what an incredible thing the

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Speaker 1: height of that of the other. Yes, they don't talk

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Speaker 1: like us, they don't look like us, and it is

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Speaker 1: so primortal, isn't it. It's just us huddling in our

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Speaker 1: little cave looking out going. Who you know, Who's who's

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Speaker 1: that tribe walking by there? That's exactly what's happening, and

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Speaker 1: we just I did. I do too. I despise it too.

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Speaker 1: And you and you would think that all of our

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Speaker 1: historical experience, seeing the tragedies that can come from mothering,

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Speaker 1: we would be past it, but we keep repeating. We

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Speaker 1: were doomed to repeat these mistakes for some reason. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it's two steps forward one step back.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, you'd think would be smarter collectively,

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Speaker 1: we're not. Yeah, it's a wild thing to me. And

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Speaker 1: and there is a there's quite an age gap when

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Speaker 1: you when you mentioned your brother between the two of you, right,

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Speaker 1: that's right. We he's my half brother. We have the

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Speaker 1: same father and different mothers. But I'm very close to

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Speaker 1: my brother. But he didn't get to come along in

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Speaker 1: all those travels. He was out of the house and

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Speaker 1: sixteen years right, so he imagined he was an adult

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Speaker 1: when you know, yeah, I mean he he was. He

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Speaker 1: was only twenty one when he was wounded in the

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Speaker 1: tet offense of Vietnam. And I think about that. I

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Speaker 1: think of my son nineteen and uh, you know, sending

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Speaker 1: your I was actually looking at old photographs that night.

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Speaker 1: I've lost both my parents within the last decade, so

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Speaker 1: still sorting through photos and books and everything. And I

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Speaker 1: was looking at my photos of my father gone now.

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Speaker 1: But he was an only child and his mother adored

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Speaker 1: my grandmother adored him. And I can't imagine the pain

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Speaker 1: of sending your one and only adored son off to

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Speaker 1: war World War two, you know, he were Pearl Harbor happens,

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Speaker 1: and and he was already in Rozie, so off he goes.

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Speaker 1: I just I can't imagine what that feels like anyway.

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Speaker 1: So my brother, yeah, big age difference, and and he

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Speaker 1: was off doing his thing. And what what happened to

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Speaker 1: him when he was wounded at twenty one? Was he

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Speaker 1: able to come home? Did he have to remain over there?

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Speaker 1: How did how did that work? We didn't know. I

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Speaker 1: was so small, But all I knew was we didn't

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Speaker 1: know where he was for a couple of months. Actually,

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Speaker 1: they had lost track of him, and uh he finally

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Speaker 1: I think my father like wrote his congressman saying can

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Speaker 1: you help? And they finally located him because he was

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Speaker 1: badly wounded. And I don't know the details, but they

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Speaker 1: finally located him on a hospital ship, so he came

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Speaker 1: back and went through the whole v a thing. I

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Speaker 1: have to say, the Tom Cruise movie born in the

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Speaker 1: fourth of July. Actually, when I saw that when it

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Speaker 1: came out a long time ago, it resonated with me,

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Speaker 1: not because that was my brother's story, but I can

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Speaker 1: imagine how he felt having been in combat. And then

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Speaker 1: the next you know, the next year or two after

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Speaker 1: he had recovered, he goes to college in Philadelphia with

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Speaker 1: you know, kids that had never seen someone blown up

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Speaker 1: in front of him. And that struggle which shows in

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Speaker 1: the movie the Tom Cruise character, whoever, that was, of

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Speaker 1: trying to adjust to civilian life after the horrors of war,

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Speaker 1: which of course we continue to see in the high

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Speaker 1: incidences of PTSD in our veterans that come back, and

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Speaker 1: and we were we were finally beginning to understand they

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Speaker 1: were just as wounded on the inside as if you know,

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Speaker 1: they had lost a limb, but we actually have to

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Speaker 1: do a better job diagnosing it, treating it, understanding it,

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Speaker 1: and integrating them back into civilian society. Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 1: It's it's crazy to me that after all of these

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Speaker 1: generational wars, you know, you talk about your dad fighting

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Speaker 1: in World War Two and your brother fighting in Vietnam,

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Speaker 1: and the wars that we're in currently, that we haven't

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Speaker 1: gotten our act together to take care of our veterans,

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Speaker 1: and that these men and how is it. Remember John

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Speaker 1: Stewart a few years ago he would learn a rip

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Speaker 1: as he should have been. But I don't think anything

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Speaker 1: much really has really been done in terms of advancing

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Speaker 1: getting computer systems to talk to each other. I think

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Speaker 1: there's a my as I run. I'm running for Congress.

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Speaker 1: So when I talked to veterans throughout my district and

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Speaker 1: throughout the state, it's a really mixed bag. Some people

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Speaker 1: have a great experience and they are seen promptly and

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Speaker 1: they feel their care is appropriate and and adequate, and others,

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Speaker 1: you know, g they lost my file and you know

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Speaker 1: it's been a year since. You know, it's it's really mixed.

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Speaker 1: But we we owe it to them. We've made them

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Speaker 1: this promise and we have to do better by them now.

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Speaker 1: That spirit of service in your family, and you talk

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Speaker 1: about how you set a goal to be in the CIA,

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Speaker 1: but how does that happen? What's the jump from you

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Speaker 1: being a kid who wanted to travel and and serve

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Speaker 1: the world in some way, whether it was the CIA

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Speaker 1: or the Peace Corps. Take me through high school into college.

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Speaker 1: What are you studying? How how does a person go

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Speaker 1: about getting in the CIA. I definitely did not have

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Speaker 1: that as a goal, but I was. I was. I

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Speaker 1: did well in school. I always was on sports teams

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Speaker 1: and leader and you know, high school year boy, all

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Speaker 1: that stuff, and continued in college. Really involved. I can't

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Speaker 1: say publicly exactly when I was recruited and so forth,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's what I can say. It's a

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Speaker 1: very long and involved process, as you might imagine, lots

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Speaker 1: of interviews and background checks and exams and meeting with

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Speaker 1: people to do little scenarios, security background checks, I mean everything, right,

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Speaker 1: So it takes a long time. And uh, in my case,

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Speaker 1: it took about six months and I finally got the

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Speaker 1: job offer. And I have to say that by the

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Speaker 1: time I got the job, officers quite enthusiastic. I might

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Speaker 1: not have started out that way. I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll try it, but long process. I'm so curious, and like,

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Speaker 1: it's long. Six months? Is it three years? Is it?

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Speaker 1: It seemed like forever it was six months. It just

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Speaker 1: depends on how quickly they can do the security background check.

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Speaker 1: At that point in time, I was among the first

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Speaker 1: women that was being higher, that was being hired specifically

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Speaker 1: to go into operations. Prior to that, most women in

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Speaker 1: the CIA in operations had started out frankly in support roles,

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Speaker 1: you know, secretaries or safe housekeepers or something like that,

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Speaker 1: and they got tired of being in that support role,

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Speaker 1: so they worked their way up. When you say operations,

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Speaker 1: can you explain what that means for listeners who don't

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Speaker 1: know the lingo in the way you do? Of course,

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Speaker 1: very very briefly. So the CIA is divided into four directorates.

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Speaker 1: The Director of Operations is the nerve part of it.

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Speaker 1: That's the whole raised on debts of the CIA, which

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Speaker 1: is to recruit foreign spies to provide really hopefully good

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Speaker 1: intelligence to senior US policymakers. There's the Director of Intelligence.

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Speaker 1: They are the analysts that bring in all the information

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Speaker 1: and are collating it and then putting it back out

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Speaker 1: into the intelligence community. Director of Research and Development R

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Speaker 1: and D the science guys like I always you know,

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Speaker 1: think of Q and BOND. And then there's administration. So

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Speaker 1: I was in operations, which is all about recruiting spies,

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Speaker 1: foreign spies. Can you tell us how old you are?

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Speaker 1: I mean, did you graduate college before you went in

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Speaker 1: to this? Yes, I've done my undergraduate yes, okay, and

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Speaker 1: you graduated but not graduate school. So you're essentially around

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Speaker 1: your son's age. You were a kid. I can't say

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Speaker 1: that publicly, but you can do the math. Okay, fair, fair, fair, fair, fair? Um? Wow?

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Speaker 1: Do you do you have memory that you can share

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Speaker 1: from your first interview? What you were being asked, what

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Speaker 1: that felt like to begin that? So I do have

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Speaker 1: one that just cracks me up every single time. So

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Speaker 1: the woman who's interviewing me is this older woman. She

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Speaker 1: has this perfectly quaffed hair and basically, as I recall,

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Speaker 1: literally wearing a Kashmere twin set and pearls, you know,

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Speaker 1: just very proper. So she's taken me through different scenarios

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Speaker 1: that what would you do in this case? What would

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Speaker 1: you do in that case? And the last one she says, okay,

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Speaker 1: pretend you are meeting a male asset in a hotel

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Speaker 1: room and you have lots of you know, papers, very

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Speaker 1: damning papers in front of you that he's passing you.

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Speaker 1: This is obviously a highly clandestine meeting and you hear

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Speaker 1: a knock at the door. It's a police, let us in.

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Speaker 1: What do you do? And even though I was young,

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Speaker 1: I had figured you didn't take much of figure out

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Speaker 1: the only good reason for a man and a woman

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Speaker 1: to be in a hotel room together is sex. So

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Speaker 1: I said, well, I'd start. I'm buttoning my blouse and

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Speaker 1: you know, she could barely smile. But I think that

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Speaker 1: was the right answer, because you know, you have to

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Speaker 1: come up with a plausible explanation on the spot, and

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Speaker 1: the police come in, you're just you know, naked in bed, okay,

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Speaker 1: then you know, so I guess that was the right

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Speaker 1: answer because I did ultimately get hired. Wow. Yeah, universal languages,

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Speaker 1: I suppose, uh and and you obviously you're getting asked

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Speaker 1: questions like this, but you have to take tests as well.

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Speaker 1: Can you share what any of those are? Are they?

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Speaker 1: I Q tests, aptitude tests, technical? Yeah? Everything. The first

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Speaker 1: test was sort of general current events, and I remember

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Speaker 1: and I always loved to read the paper, so it

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Speaker 1: wasn't a big deal for me. I mean, I just

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Speaker 1: kept up on this stuff. But there was a question

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Speaker 1: of something about the congo and there's actually two congos

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Speaker 1: in Africa. So I was like, well, which you know

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Speaker 1: which Congo the Democratic Republic of Congo or uh and uh?

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Speaker 1: So I felt good. I mean I was as as

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you can be very nonchalant about it because I

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Speaker 1: didn't I didn't know at that time how much I

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Speaker 1: wanted it, And sometimes that leads to just being relaxed

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Speaker 1: and doing your best. So, you know, one one test

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Speaker 1: led to another sort of thing. Wow, and then you

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Speaker 1: get in. How do they tell you you're in? Do

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Speaker 1: you get a phone call from someone to someone show

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Speaker 1: up at your door? I think a letter? I think

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Speaker 1: a letter. This is snail mail days, right, this is

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Speaker 1: long before email, right, So you find out you're in,

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Speaker 1: and then you have to report to Langleage. Yeah, to

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Speaker 1: actually know. First I do all the intake at an

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Speaker 1: outlying building and that's a big deal. You know, you're

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Speaker 1: you're I can't remember. I guess it was before. So

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Speaker 1: you've already taken your polygraph and you've had all these tests,

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Speaker 1: but there's still it was a big process and there

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Speaker 1: were um a lot of people in my class um

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Speaker 1: that were being brought in that were noted to be

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Speaker 1: going off into different parts of the agency, whether as

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Speaker 1: an analyst or whatever, got it. And so you get in,

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Speaker 1: you have to report somewhere to begin whatever your training is.

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Speaker 1: What do you tell your friends and your family, because

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Speaker 1: you can't tell them you're in the CIA now right now?

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Speaker 1: Of course not. They give you, um, they give you

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Speaker 1: a cover from the beginning. And there's all sorts of covers.

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Speaker 1: There's a spectrum, I should say. On one end there's

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Speaker 1: business where you're not affiliated with the US government at all,

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Speaker 1: and on the other end it's where you would have

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Speaker 1: State Department cover. You could tell your friends, well, I'm

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Speaker 1: a Foreign Service officer when in fact you're really a

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Speaker 1: CIA off sir. Wow. And there's a lot of covers

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Speaker 1: in between. But I mean they take care of for that.

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Speaker 1: They help you please to say wow. And I've heard

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Speaker 1: it referenced, and I it's no shock to read that.

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Speaker 1: You know, the CIA was originally kind of an old

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Speaker 1: boys club. Absolutely, What was it like to step into

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Speaker 1: that environment and and and over the course of your career,

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Speaker 1: have you seen that begin to change at all? M

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Speaker 1: h um, Yeah, so totally. The old boys Club, Yale, Harvard, Princeton,

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Speaker 1: it did. I would say, it really did not begin

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Speaker 1: to break open until the late eighties, and there's still

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Speaker 1: a long ways to go. So finally there is a

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Speaker 1: female director, Gina Haspell. Finally, and I believe, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I think two of the three directorates are headed by women,

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Speaker 1: which is great, but that doesn't mean it's all. Everything's great,

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Speaker 1: of course, it's still I think, still very much a

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Speaker 1: man's world, like everywhere else. Uh. There was a class

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Speaker 1: action suit brought by women in the early nineties that said,

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Speaker 1: and they wanted that women were simply not being promoted,

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Speaker 1: they were not being given good assignments that would allow

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Speaker 1: them to be promoted to the next level and so forth,

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Speaker 1: and it was pervasive. It might be a little better now,

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Speaker 1: but it takes a while to change these huge bureaucracies. Sure. Sure,

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Speaker 1: you've also talked about how when you joined the CIA

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Speaker 1: at that time, no one would mention or talk about

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Speaker 1: their politics. How is that changing or is that still

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Speaker 1: a requirement to keep your personal political beliefs to yourself.

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Speaker 1: It was never requirement. It was simply how people did things.

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Speaker 1: I would say, honestly, I just noticed a huge change,

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Speaker 1: not just in the CIA but across the board of

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Speaker 1: how people spoke about their politics. After the two thousand

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Speaker 1: contested election, Bush view Gore. Prior to that, people you know,

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Speaker 1: it was it maybe sounds so old fashioned, but people really,

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Speaker 1: you know, you don't talk about religion, sex, politics that

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Speaker 1: a dinner party. You just kind of of course, there

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Speaker 1: are exceptions to that, but it was like that Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court decision that gave Bushop presidency in two thousand cracked

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Speaker 1: something open. And I think by and large, just by

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Speaker 1: the nature of it, many of the people in the

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Speaker 1: CIA tend to be conservative, you know, their military, but

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Speaker 1: of course everything has been upended in recent years. There

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Speaker 1: are no real Republicans left. I mean, my I was

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Speaker 1: raised in a Republican house, which meant strong fiscal policy,

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Speaker 1: strong defense, and and the social issues were never even

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Speaker 1: touched on. And it's so different than where we are today.

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Speaker 1: What do you when you say there are no Republicans

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Speaker 1: left like the parents who you were raised by, what

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Speaker 1: do you what do you see in the party now? What?

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Speaker 1: What's what's the most shocking to you about the way

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Speaker 1: things are going at the moment? The most the most

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Speaker 1: shocking thing to me is that elected leaders in the GOP,

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Speaker 1: who should know better, who do know better, are saying

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Speaker 1: and doing nothing they are truly putting party above country.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just elected official officials. In my mind,

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Speaker 1: it's also leaders of faith, business leaders and so forth.

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Speaker 1: Because the flagrant of use abuse of power that we

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Speaker 1: are seeing by Trump far goes far beyond partisan politics.

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Speaker 1: There's no Republican Party left. What do they stand for?

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Speaker 1: Definitely not fiscal responsibility. The deficit has ballooned. And you

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Speaker 1: remember when we're cheeping up under Obama? Uh oh, you

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Speaker 1: know how terrible, how terrible? The deficit is far bigger now,

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Speaker 1: and no one says anything. It used to be the

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Speaker 1: Republican Party really stayed out of social issues. I thought that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're so intellectually dishonest, disingenuous, don't even get

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Speaker 1: me started. They believe, on one hand, the government should

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Speaker 1: stay out of your business, except, as my girlfriend likes

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Speaker 1: to say, the government the GOP wants to be in

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Speaker 1: my vagina. In other words, deeply within our decisions, what

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Speaker 1: women's decisions should be concerning choice and so forth. And

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Speaker 1: I think this started. This trend started under Reagan talking

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Speaker 1: about the so called moral majority and realizing that they

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Speaker 1: could add on the evangelicals or court them as a

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Speaker 1: voting block. And so where we are now is we

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Speaker 1: have the evangelicals that are so strongly behind Trump, who

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Speaker 1: see him if I here imperfect vessel one more time

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Speaker 1: and going to scream, But I don't see anything about

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Speaker 1: what he does or what his policies are, especially being

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Speaker 1: on a border state that anywhere resembles what Jesus might do. Right.

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Speaker 1: That's talking amongst us is that faith is being used

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Speaker 1: like a baseball bat to bully for power. It has

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with faith, It has nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with it. There's nothing. It has nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: the gentle, loving demeanor that Jesus represents in the evangelical firmament.

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Speaker 1: And I just I find the the hypocrisy to be outrageous.

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Speaker 1: It's wild to me how transparent it all is, and

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Speaker 1: how no one is willing to admit that what we

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Speaker 1: are seeing is what we're seeing. And you hear people

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Speaker 1: like Trump and Drew Leanni and his cronies literally say

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Speaker 1: things like the truth isn't truth, don't trust what you

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Speaker 1: see on TV. Listen to me. I mean, it's it's

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Speaker 1: well going to trust me or your lying eyes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really it's really frightening to me, and it's an

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Speaker 1: odd thing when, to your point, you see people who

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Speaker 1: who purport to have any kind of faith behave so greedily,

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Speaker 1: and and and people be so shortsighted, and and even

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Speaker 1: you know, I had this debait recently about our health

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Speaker 1: care system and our education system, you know, and I

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Speaker 1: said the fact that we supposedly can't pay to take

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Speaker 1: care of our own but we can find a six

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Speaker 1: d billion dollar surplus surplus, not even budget, a surplus

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Speaker 1: for the military. And I said that money is not

428
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: going to career service members. That money is not going

429
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: to our men and women in uniform. It's not paying

430
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: for new kevlar for our uniformed officers who are butter

431
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 1: He always where you put your money to? I was

432
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: you where your priorities are? It's very simple, yeah, And

433
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,959
Speaker 1: it's so it's very it's very strange to me. And

434
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 1: and it's interesting that you point to the Bushcore elections

435
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: as the tipping point. I watched a documentary about it

436
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: not too long ago, and and really getting to see

437
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: the inside of it, and getting to see that the

438
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 1: Supreme Court just stopped a proper investigation into the election

439
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: and handed power over. I think so many people felt

440
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: so d and betrayed. It was such a betrayal of

441
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 1: of of our constitution and we're seeing it again. Indeed,

442
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: I had held the Supreme Court in such uh, such

443
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: high standing, and to find out that they were as

444
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: base partisan as as everyone else was really a painful realization.

445
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: That's a hard one. What does it feel like? Because

446
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 1: it's close in timing, UH to what happened to you

447
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: in two thousand two, when you see how petty and

448
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: partisan people can be, people who are supposed to be

449
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: above the fray and really put country over party and

450
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: really put America first, regardless of their personal feelings about

451
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: anybody in it. When you went through what you did

452
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: in two thousand two, which led to your exposure, which

453
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: was a threat to your life. To be clear for

454
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: people listening in two thousand three, for for listeners who

455
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: don't know what you went through, then could you walk

456
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: us through your experience. I'll do my best to make

457
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: it brief. What happened was in July two thousand and three,

458
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: my then husband Joe Wilson wrote an up ed piece

459
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: for The New York Times entitled What I Did Not

460
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: Find in Africa, and he went after the central premise

461
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: that the Bush White House gave for the war in

462
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: a rock which was an imminent nuclear threat, and he

463
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: wrote that the intelligence had been cherry picked and the

464
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: intelligence had been fit around the policy, rather than the

465
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: policy being made based on exactly yeah, that the that

466
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: it had all it wasn't. It was a terrible foreign

467
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: policy mistake. The Bush White House did not take that well.

468
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: And a week later a conservative columnist, Robert Novak, who

469
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: was gone now revealed my name and my true CIA

470
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: identity in his syndicated column. And so that began a

471
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: year's long, crazy political firestorm. We were called Joe and

472
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: I were called liars and traders, and it was it

473
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: was really quite a searing life experience. And then that chapter,

474
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: i would say, ended in two thousand and seven with

475
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: a conviction of Scooter Libby, who was Vice President Cheney's

476
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: chief of staff and in fact, and he was he

477
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: was just pardoned last year by Trump. Not that Trump

478
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: has any idea really who he is. He was just

479
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: sending a message to his squad that if you support

480
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: me and protect me, I'll protect you, but well, and

481
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: a specific message that if you support Trump over the

482
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: intelligence community, which could have disastrous recourse for the nation.

483
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: You'll get pardoned and it won't matter that you sold

484
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: out your country exactly because because this idea that a

485
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: conservative columnist would break your cover, reveal your true identity,

486
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: reveal your position within the CIA, that quite literally put

487
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: you in your husband's lives at risk, potentially your children's

488
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: lives at risk. The the idea that our most valued

489
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: undercover service people could be the victims of hit jobs

490
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: by conservative media. I mean, that's that's a really egregious

491
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: I I consider, as a person who spent a lot

492
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: of time with armed servicemen in both the police departments

493
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: and in and in the military, that to me, that

494
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: feels treasonous. To me, that feels it was treasonous. I

495
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: would agree it was wrong. It was absolutely wrong. What happened.

496
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: This is, uh, they betrayed my CIA identity for their

497
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: partisan agenda, quite very simple. And and because you're then

498
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: husband held them accountable for lying to the American public.

499
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: So it's right. So it's he said that a lot.

500
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: He's like, you need to hold your government to account

501
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: for their words and deeds. Yeah, So he after that.

502
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: That was two thousand and seven, and the day after

503
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: I moved out to New Mexico and we started our

504
00:31:53,880 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: new life out here. So what what goes on though

505
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: for those four years between two thousand three and two

506
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: thousand seven? Can you walk us through that experience? I mean,

507
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: what happens when you find out either online or on TV,

508
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: that this has happened to you, that your whole life

509
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: has essentially just been blown up. Where are you? What's

510
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: the reaction, and what's your first step to trying to

511
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: figure out how to right the wrong? It just felt

512
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: like being sucker punched. I had always lived, and I

513
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: was perfectly happy being anonymous in my you know what

514
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: I was really doing. I had no problem with that.

515
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: I knew what I was doing was worthwhile. I didn't

516
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: need any more attention than that. It was really it felt,

517
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: as I say, like falling down Alice's rabbit hole where

518
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: white is black and black is white, and there's all

519
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: these It was a huge me a story for years.

520
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: So there's TV and radio and newspaper and whatnot about

521
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: these people name Valerie Plane and Joe Wilson, and I

522
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: had no idea who these people were. It was really

523
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: just survival, just getting through that. My my kids were little,

524
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: so that was helpful because they really don't They really

525
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: don't care. They just want their snack and they want

526
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: your love and your attention. So that was very helpful.

527
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: But it was so disorienting the whole time. I mean,

528
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: it took me years to come to terms with it,

529
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: and it really wasn't until we did move to New

530
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: Mexico and I got my feet under me a little

531
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: bit that I thought, Okay, if I have a voice,

532
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: how can I use it about too to draw attention

533
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: to things that I care about, whether it's nuclear proliferation

534
00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: or women's reproductive rights, or education or whatever. There's a

535
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: lot of issues in my state, of my home of

536
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: New Mexico that need attention brought upon them. So I

537
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: did my best, but it was a long, painful journey.

538
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: And what goes through your mind when when you see

539
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: the government giving out information that you and your colleagues

540
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: know is not accurate. I mean you're watching, for example,

541
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: there's a story about Colin Powell on TV. How does

542
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: that feel as a service member to see someone else

543
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: who's meant to serve put you in that position? I

544
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: think it just uh it. Of course, you suffer a

545
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 1: loss of faith and a loss of innocence. Not that

546
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: I was so naive, but I had a very steep

547
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: learning curve when it came to politics in Washington from

548
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: two thousand and three on. I still have a certain

549
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: idealistic streak in me, I suppose, because why else would

550
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 1: I run. You have to You have to think that

551
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: you can make a difference. Not totally cynical, it's um. Yeah.

552
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: Someone asked me today, so what's worse the Trump administration

553
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: or the Bush Cheney And I said, you know, how

554
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: can you compare? I would say that they both enormously

555
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: damaged our country and our democratic values, each in their

556
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: own special little way. It started under Bush Cheney, where

557
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 1: the American public ultimately felt deceived and lied to as

558
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: it was about the reasons to go to war in Iraq.

559
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: And uh, we haven't quite recovered from that before. We're

560
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: careening around the corner. And now we're in a world

561
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: where Trump routinely, you know, says uSens of falsehoods a

562
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: day just because he can. I don't know, you know,

563
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: it's just it's it is a really weird time we

564
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 1: are in. It's very dangerous in many ways, I believe,

565
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: And it's interesting to compare the dangers of both administrations,

566
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: and I think about the way it personally affected you

567
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: because back then President Bush promised to fire anyone who

568
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: was involved in revealing your identity to the press, and then,

569
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: as you mentioned with Scooter Libby, the week was actually

570
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: traced all the way back to Vice President Cheney's office,

571
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: and President Bush did not keep his word. No one

572
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: was ever prosecuted for the league other than other than

573
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: Scooter Libby. One day, I want to have a nice

574
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: long dinner with a special prosecutor, Patrick Fitzgerald, because he

575
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 1: came very close, I think, to indict in Karl Rove.

576
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: But some prosecutors want to walk in feeling they have

577
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: chance of conviction, and maybe he felt with Rove it

578
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: was five I don't you know, I don't know, right,

579
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: so who knows? There were It was definitely a conspiracy.

580
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: There were definitely a lot of people involved in trying

581
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: to smear Joe Wilson and make it I just believe

582
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: that his op ed appeared at a particularly vulnerable moment

583
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: for the Bush administration and they felt they needed to

584
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: push back, and they I don't know exactly what. I

585
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 1: don't know exactly to this day how they got my name,

586
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: and but they decided to make it about Joe Wilson

587
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 1: and Valerie Plame rather than do have you noticed there's

588
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: no W M D and no rock like we told

589
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: you there was. Yes, Interesting, it's it's it's smoking mirrors.

590
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: And I do wonder. I wonder how Robert Novac got

591
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: your name in the first place. And and what we

592
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: do We do know how Novac got it, but what

593
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: we don't know is how the White House got it.

594
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: I have my suspicions, but I don't I don't know

595
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: for sure. Interesting, I just I wonder practically, you know,

596
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 1: because you were still working at the CIA at the time,

597
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 1: and and that meant you weren't permitted to speak publicly

598
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: about so you had to face this barrage of stories

599
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 1: about you that actually didn't involve you, They didn't include

600
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 1: your perspective in any way. Did you have to hire security?

601
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: How did you what? What did you have to do

602
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: in your practical life too to deal with suddenly having

603
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: these national spotlights on you and to deal with a

604
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: White House essentially using you as a distraction from their

605
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: lie about weapons of mass destruction. Well, during that whole

606
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 1: period before I could speak publicly when I was still

607
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: a CIA employee. It was Joe Wilson carrying the water

608
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: for both of us, and he was defending our characters

609
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: and who we were and what we believed in. And

610
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,439
Speaker 1: every time he said something, he was called, oh there

611
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: he got, you know, so there he goes again. What

612
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: a show boater. I mean it was. It was awful.

613
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 1: He really wore the brunt of that because you had

614
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: the entire bush chainey Gop machine behind them to destroy

615
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: Joe Wilson and his credibility for having noted that the

616
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: emperor had no clothes essentially and being you know, it's

617
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 1: very simple, but that's I'm just boiling it down. So

618
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: we were just an honestly, we were just in survival mode.

619
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: You just try to Nothing in my life had prepared

620
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: me for that. I was still a young mother. Um,

621
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: I loved my career. I was trying to be supportive

622
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: of Joe, but I couldn't speak publicly. It was just

623
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: a very disorienting and difficult time. And to deal with

624
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: the weight of a nation and falsehoods in the press,

625
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: and to have three year old twins, you know, to

626
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: your point, to be a young mother, you had two

627
00:39:55,160 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: babies two. It's crazy. That's a lot to juggle. What's

628
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: that experience like is I'm so curious how when you're

629
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: undercover in the CIA you get through a pregnancy and

630
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: then how do you how do you have this family? Well?

631
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 1: I had, let's put it this way, I had already

632
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: had a lot of career behind me by the time

633
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 1: I was pregnant. Um, I had what was considered a

634
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 1: geriatric pregnancy. I'm like, really, um, I think that. Yeah,

635
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: so I thanks a lot. But by that time, so

636
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 1: my my my twins were born in Washington, d C.

637
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: And as I read about in Fair Game, I quite surprisingly,

638
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: at least it was surprised to me. I suffered pretty

639
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: seriously from postpartum depression, just overwhelming sense of what the

640
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: hell is going on? And I think it was just

641
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 1: lack of sleep and chemical hormonal changes and it was

642
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: really difficult. So I took some time off and then

643
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: I went back to work. And really there after nine

644
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: eleven happened, and then and then it all began, you know,

645
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: the run up to the war with Iraq, first Afghanistan

646
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: and then the switch to Iraq. So in that era,

647
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: in the era of nine eleven, doing the work that

648
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: you were doing and having this expertise on nuclear weapons

649
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: and proliferation and what's going on. Then what's it like

650
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: to be at the CIA? Then what were you working on?

651
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: You know, you're you're a young mom who's just battled postpartum,

652
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 1: You've come back to work. Nine eleven happens. What what

653
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: does that mean that your day to day experiences. It

654
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: was intense and fascinating time. Of course, in the initial

655
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 1: weeks following the nine eleven attacks, people were literally sleeping

656
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: under their desks because you're you know, we were just

657
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 1: going to war footing and what that involves. Shortly after

658
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: that happened, as the White House began to focus on

659
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: a Rock they set up something called the Rock Task Force,

660
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: and I was asked to go on that and work

661
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 1: on operations and and it was just a crazy period

662
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: of time. You're just working intense hours. I would bring

663
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 1: my my babies and then toddlers into the office on

664
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: you know, on the weekends because you don't always get childcare,

665
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: and of course they have no idea where they are,

666
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: but you're just trying to work a couple more hours.

667
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: It's just it was just a in the run up

668
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: to the war with Iraq. We were just working flat

669
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 1: out trying to figure out what the state of play

670
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 1: was with Saddam Hussein's presumed W and D program nuclear, chemical, biological,

671
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure what you can share about how

672
00:42:55,120 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 1: you investigate that program. But what what are you lookingly?

673
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: You you recruit spies to tell you about it, that's

674
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: the idea anyway, So you're attempting to recruit spies who

675
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: work within his country and even in his government, that's right,

676
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: Or where he's procuring, where they're procuring the material needed

677
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: for any of these programs or do they are the

678
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: scientists going to a you know, out of country conference?

679
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: Can you meet them there? And it was just a

680
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: really intense period of time. Wow. And and are there

681
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 1: things you can share now that you learned then about

682
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: where he was procuring chemical weapons and goods for the

683
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 1: arsenal he was building or is that still all classified information?

684
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: Is it turns out what really was happening was Sudan Hussein.

685
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: It was a huge ruse. He just he knew it

686
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: was in a really bad neighborhood. He wanted to appear

687
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: as tough as possible, and he overplayed his hand. The

688
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: United States thought that there was or they asssumed that

689
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 1: there was nuclear weapons. As we got deeper into it,

690
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 1: we realized that wasn't quite the case. But that's then

691
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: you start getting in all the it's a long conversation

692
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: about why we went to war in Iraq. Yeah, that's

693
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 1: I can't imagine. I just can't imagine what it must

694
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:32,919
Speaker 1: have been like to be at the forefront of that

695
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: experience in that time. And what does it take? You know,

696
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: when you talk about the issues that you have focused

697
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: on in your career, things like nuclear proliferation, global you know,

698
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: foreign policy things on top of what you're discussing now

699
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: when you're running for office in New Mexico, how do

700
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 1: you become an expert in those things? What is what

701
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: does it take? What are you reading? What do you

702
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 1: read now even outside of the CIA? Now? What do

703
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: you spend your attention on every day to remain on

704
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: top of it in these fields? How I would I

705
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: definitely was a liberal arts major, so it's not like

706
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:25,760
Speaker 1: I had the expertise from training or anything or in school.

707
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: The government loves to train you, it's time, it's experience.

708
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: I learned a lot, I asked a lot. I've always

709
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:38,879
Speaker 1: read widely. I continue to do so today, But it's

710
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: the expertise was, of course, I mean I understood a

711
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: lot of the technical stuff because I needed to. But

712
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: my expertise was actually in recruiting people too who had

713
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: that technical know how way, but may may way more

714
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: than I do. So I just my expertise developed over time.

715
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: My expert I really think myself. Although I worked on

716
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 1: the nuclear threat, my expertise is really people and trying

717
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: to figure out what makes them tick and how do

718
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: you how do you do that? How do you approach people?

719
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: Ask questions just like you're doing. People love to talk

720
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 1: about themselves, and if it's genuine, if the questions are genuine,

721
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: and you do know right away people are just you know,

722
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: everyone's experienced small talk at parties. Um, you know right

723
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: away if someone is truly genuine in asking, really what

724
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: what what do you do? Versus what do you do?

725
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,760
Speaker 1: You know there's a there's a world of difference right there. Absolutely,

726
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 1: It's funny. Those are the things that even for me

727
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: when I'm when I'm wearing my actor hat and I'm

728
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 1: on sets, my job is to figure out what the

729
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: energy is under the dialogue. So that it informs the

730
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: experience people are having in a scene. And I'm realizing

731
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 1: that in a lot of ways, your job was the same.

732
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: I would say, we if you're good at your job

733
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: in the CIA, you're drawing a lot upon probably the

734
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: same skill set that you use on set. And it's

735
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: not just acting, it's not being someone else, but it

736
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: really is being very empathetic and being very aware to

737
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: people's energy and what's going on behind the eyes, all

738
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:31,280
Speaker 1: of those things that you bring to your job acting,

739
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: and if you're good, that's what you should be bringing

740
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: to your job in the CIA. And you're saying that

741
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: just sort of made my head's been because I realized

742
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: that in doing so much work as an empathetic observer

743
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: throughout the course of your career, then when you and

744
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: Joe went through this at home explosion of your identity

745
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 1: and your life, it was such a lack of empathy.

746
00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: It must have felt so surreal and were into you

747
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: even though you were here at home. It must have

748
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:08,320
Speaker 1: been so jarring, and you write about it so beautifully

749
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: in the book where you talk about how if you

750
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: spoke out during those proceedings, you'd lose your job, but

751
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: that if you didn't speak out, it could doom your marriage.

752
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 1: And I'm curious how you got through those days, what

753
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: that experience was for you and Joe. Who could you

754
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: go to for advice at that time? No one really.

755
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 1: I mean I had my friends and I had my family,

756
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: but no one could really understand what we were experiencing.

757
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: It was. I don't know, it was just white knuckling

758
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 1: it right. I'm a I'm a lot older and wiser now.

759
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: There are a lot of things I could have done,

760
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 1: whether it was therapy or more wine at night, or

761
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: making sure I got better sleep. I mean, really, I

762
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: mean people, I mean I I smoked a lot of

763
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: cigarettes on the back patio trying to go you know,

764
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,399
Speaker 1: how how do I how the hell do I get

765
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 1: out of this? How do I? It was? It wasn't

766
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: It wasn't pretty. I tried to get through it with

767
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 1: grace um the most of course that your children are

768
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:23,479
Speaker 1: safe and feel loved. But those years are a blur,

769
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: and not in a good way, you know, not not

770
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 1: in not in a joyous way. It was just I

771
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 1: feel really badly for my kids because what happened really

772
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: did take away a lot of that where you should

773
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: just be focused on your small children and those joyful

774
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: moments of you know what you see as a toddler

775
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 1: and first grade and all that stuff. And and I

776
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 1: feel that got taken away because I was always on guard,

777
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: whether it was someone a photographer was going to sort

778
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 1: of jump out of the bushes, or my phone would ring,

779
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: here's a development, guess what Judith Miller is in prison

780
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: or whatever it might be. I mean, it went on

781
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,360
Speaker 1: and on and on, and I don't have any I

782
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: really don't spend any time feeling bitter against people who

783
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 1: are not who beneath my contempt, whether it's Cheney, Libby Grove.

784
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 1: But I do get angry because they took away precious

785
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: time that I will never get back with my children.

786
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: So I had pictures, Apparently I was there, but I

787
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 1: wasn't really there right well, And that's such a common

788
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: response to trauma. And so many people who have experienced

789
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: whatever degree of PTSD that they have through traumatic events

790
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 1: talk about how you you just lose chunks of time,

791
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: and and I I have in this moment, and I

792
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: remember reading your story in real time, but just so

793
00:50:55,640 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: much empathy for the inmense amount of trauma and pressure

794
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: that you both were placed under, and I think that

795
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 1: it's it's such a cool thing. I mean, you know,

796
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: I I d M you when I saw your ad

797
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: when you announced that you were running, because I just thought,

798
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: this woman is such a badass. Look at it. I'm

799
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: so glad you did led to this. The ad was

800
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: really fun to make. It felt like it was such

801
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: a great metaphor of driving backwards at high rate of speed.

802
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 1: Is what is happening right now to the things that

803
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: we care about, national security, women's women's rights, everything right

804
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 1: for him, the constitution, healthcare, all of it. Everything, everything

805
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: we've ever hedged our bets on as a country, moving

806
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 1: forward and progressing to maybe achieve the ideals under which

807
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: we were founded. Truly and completely, we're just them. We're

808
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 1: burning it. There are days when I I watch What's

809
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: hop opening and I feel like I'm watching the flag burn.

810
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: That's how I feel. We all, I think so many

811
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 1: millions of us true feel betrayed. Our leaders have betrayed us.

812
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: Our democratic values feel imperiled. And it's not just like, oh,

813
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: he's a you know, he's a different party and I

814
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 1: disagree with his new feel much more profound and when

815
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 1: you look at what's going on, and you realize that

816
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: the even just the number of and level of impeachable

817
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,800
Speaker 1: offenses make Watergate look like child's play, you know, and

818
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: that was like the greatest disgrace of an American president.

819
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 1: I mean just it's it's really unfathomable to me, and

820
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 1: I guess it makes me wonder, from you choosing to

821
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:52,439
Speaker 1: resign from the CIA in two thousand seven to now

822
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 1: announcing that you're running for Congress and and running for

823
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 1: the northern New Mexico seat. For the listeners, what made

824
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: you decide to get back in the arena? You know what?

825
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: What made you decide that you were ready to run.

826
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: I think where we are in our nation's history right now,

827
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: I feel that Donald Trump and what is left of

828
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: the Republican Party are truly um imperiling, putting into peril

829
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: are democratic values, and I felt I needed to raise

830
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 1: my hand and serve my country again. Maybe it sounds

831
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 1: a little corny, but I wanted. I felt I I

832
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:45,359
Speaker 1: have the experience in the background and given all I've

833
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: been through, the judgment and problem solving skills to really

834
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: bring to bear for my home in New Mexico. I've

835
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,720
Speaker 1: lived all over the world. No other place has felt

836
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 1: like home here, this is my community. I felt compelled

837
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: to at least try, So that's what I'm doing. There's

838
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,919
Speaker 1: it's a big primary. I'm in a big primary. There's

839
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: ten of us. The primary will be next June, and uh,

840
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: I I just want to be able to say I

841
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 1: did my best. I felt compelled to try to do

842
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,720
Speaker 1: this because I want to help my community, but also,

843
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: UH push back in what little way I can against

844
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: what I see as a real threat to our democracy.

845
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 1: And what issues for you when you when you think

846
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 1: about your community and you have lived in New Mexico

847
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: now for quite some time, and you observe what's going

848
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: on in in the state and in your district, what

849
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: are the issues that are most important to you right

850
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: now to help your community in the district, which is huge,

851
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: by the way, it's it's about the size of Florida. Apparently.

852
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: The three things things I hear over and over again

853
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 1: our education, employment, and environment. Extremely diverse community here. We

854
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: have Anglo Hispanic Native communities. It is urban, it is

855
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: very rural, it is affluent, it is struggling. I mean,

856
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of everything, but those three areas

857
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: are the ones where everyone, no matter what their background is,

858
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: I hear over and over again, environment, education, employment, which

859
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 1: included in that of course would be healthcare. But that

860
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: is the people of northern New Mexico want to make

861
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: sure they have a loud, clearer voice in Congress to

862
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: address these concerns. And I would love to be given

863
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: that honor. And what when you think about, with all

864
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 1: your expertise and experience under your belt, what are the

865
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 1: things that you want to create, What are policies that

866
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 1: you would like to enact? Where where do you want

867
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 1: to go first when you take that congressional seat mm hmm.

868
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 1: On one hand, so specifically to the district and the

869
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:23,800
Speaker 1: congressional district are issues related to education, particularly pre K

870
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 1: and helping you know, these are state issues, but the

871
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 1: FED at the federal level you can absolutely provide leadership

872
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 1: and funding and a voice for And I think education

873
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: is a foundation of everything else you want to do

874
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,839
Speaker 1: going forward. I'm really proud to say that the New

875
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 1: Mexico Congressional Caucus right now all Democrats. They really have

876
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 1: done a beautiful job putting into place some protections to

877
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:56,960
Speaker 1: prevent fracking and drilling around Chaco Canyon. Which is in

878
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: the western part of the state. It's an ancient sacred

879
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: site and they were able to push back against attempts

880
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,720
Speaker 1: to sell off little, you know, pieces of land for

881
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,399
Speaker 1: extraction things. So that's exciting to be able to think

882
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,720
Speaker 1: you could be part of that to preserve our heritage

883
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: and environment environmental issues. And then on the national scale scale,

884
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: where I've done a lot of my work as an adult,

885
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 1: it's everything from cybersecurity, concern about our elections being fair

886
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 1: and true and not being not allowing for an influence.

887
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 1: It's the whole nuclear threat, which under Trump has grown

888
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 1: despite what he says the guard rails are all off.

889
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 1: I could have we could have a whole other conversation

890
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 1: on on the treaties that have gone by the wayside

891
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: or not being renewed and why that's a bad thing.

892
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 1: I would actually love your opinion on some of those things.

893
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: Because the Trump the amount of disinformation that he's been

894
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 1: able to spread and and and sort of these Assassina

895
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 1: assassination campaigns he's run on really good policy for US

896
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 1: as America. You have such firsthand knowledge about and especially

897
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 1: when we talk about the Iran deal and the treaty

898
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: that was really keeping so much global stability in place.

899
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 1: Can can you speak to that a bit for people,

900
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 1: because you're the kind of voice they should be hearing

901
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 1: from on that. Yeah, very briefly, I believe that he

902
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: is ignorant on the whole issue of the nuclear threat.

903
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 1: The unilateral withdrawal from theronnuclear deal I believe will prove

904
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 1: and it has already in certain cases to be absolutely catastrophic.

905
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 1: It wasn't a perfect deal, but no deal ever is.

906
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 1: But it did do far more than what any expert

907
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 1: thought it could, and it did what it set out

908
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: to do, which is to prevent Iran from developing a

909
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 1: nuclear capability. And now so that's you can't do anything

910
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 1: when you're no longer at the table. And even if

911
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: suddenly we were to reverse things and we were to

912
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 1: go back in, too much water of course has already

913
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 1: flown down the uh you know, gone by, so that

914
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 1: in the river, so that you can't step back in.

915
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 1: It's a different river now, it's completely different. And of

916
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: course we're seeing a lot of struggling for regional hedgemonty

917
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: between Saudi Arabia and Iran. So that's a problem you have.

918
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 1: The news start treaty that probably will not be renewed

919
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 1: in two that's a problem. We still have a We

920
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 1: have still have not renounced no first use policy. We

921
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: have not yet said that we renounced nuclear weapons and

922
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 1: first use, which would do a lot to ratchet down tensions.

923
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 1: Just in general, it's fair to say that our nuclear

924
00:59:54,320 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 1: stance is like the rest of the foreign policy feckless, confused,

925
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 1: No one really understands what's going on, and in general,

926
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 1: it's fair to say it's worse. And I'm curious for

927
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 1: your perspective on one of the hot button issue right

928
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 1: now when you look at what's going on with the

929
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 1: Ukraine whistle blower, because you went through your own experience

930
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 1: with having your character assassinated because your husband was being

931
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: was stepping up it's a whistle blower at the time,

932
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 1: what's going through your mind when you look at this

933
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 1: Ukraine situation and what do you wish that people in

934
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 1: our government and in the media we're doing differently in

935
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: the face of this information, In the face of someone

936
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 1: coming forward and saying I believe that this is a

937
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 1: threat to American democracy, the way that the president behaved

938
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 1: in Ukraine, What what do you what do you? What

939
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 1: do you think about all this. I think that whistle

940
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 1: blower is a very brave patriot his and we're pretty

941
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 1: sure it's a he. His identity must be protected. I

942
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 1: think Trump was inching closer the other day to saying

943
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 1: that he is ready to identify the whistleblower, which is outrageous,

944
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 1: absolutely outrageous. I feel personally for the whistleblower. They knew.

945
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: This was not done on a whimsy. The whistleblower knew

946
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 1: what he was doing. His career is essentially over. But

947
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 1: he put together a very by all accounts, a very

948
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 1: thoughtful and credible report that may be the ultimately the

949
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 1: basis for the We'll see what the impeachment um, what

950
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: the charges are, but that will certainly be one of them,

951
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: the flagrant abuse of power. So I I just, I

952
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 1: just on a very human level, I feel for the whistleblower.

953
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 1: His life is as he's known, it is done. Wow.

954
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:53,479
Speaker 1: Joe said in an interview once. If I can read

955
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 1: a quote of his, he said that the strength of

956
01:01:55,840 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 1: our republic actually depends on citizens exercising their responsibility as

957
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 1: citizens to hold their governments to account for what the

958
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 1: government does and says on account of the people and

959
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that sentiment. It reminds me

960
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 1: that it's on us, that it requires, it requires all

961
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: of us. Do you think that we're doing a good

962
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 1: enough job of that today? Do you see enough? Uh?

963
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 1: Citizen pushback? Does? Does the resistance inspire you? Well, I'm

964
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 1: gonna revert to Benjamin Franklin great quote. So when he

965
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 1: stepped outside of the the convention, he was asked by

966
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 1: a woman, Oh, Mr Franklin, Dr Franklin, what kind of

967
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 1: government have you bequeathed us? And his reply was a republic, madam,

968
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 1: if you can keep it? So it's on us. The

969
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 1: onus is on us. Two question our government. Whistleblowers are

970
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 1: very important aspect of that to point out when there's corruption, wrongdoing, incompetence.

971
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 1: Trump right now is really a symptom of underlying problems

972
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 1: with our erosion. I mean, he's you can't, as much

973
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 1: as we many of us would like to, you can't

974
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 1: put all the blame at his feet. A lot of

975
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 1: this had been happening for a long time and we

976
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 1: were not paying attention. We were patting ourselves on the

977
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 1: back because we elected a black man president. We're so

978
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 1: you know how, you know how great, and it was

979
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: great for that aspect, but there are many other aspects

980
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 1: on our democracy that we're being chipped away at, and

981
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:45,200
Speaker 1: not least of which is in fact, maybe the biggest

982
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: is Citizens United, which has to be the worst Supreme

983
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 1: Court decision ever. And uh, we have just gobs of

984
01:03:54,640 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: dark money pouring into the political system and it just destroyed,

985
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 1: it's everything, and neither side, neither side is willing to

986
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: actually address it in any meaningful way. Yeah, m it

987
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 1: makes me excited. Do you know that the group represent Us? Yeah, yeah,

988
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 1: they do some really wonderful work for for anybody who's listening.

989
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:20,959
Speaker 1: There's some groups out there they're doing you know, I'm

990
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:25,240
Speaker 1: not totally in despair, no, but I think we have

991
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 1: to be really practical and real about how great the

992
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 1: threat to the nation is. And then I think for

993
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 1: so many of us, you know who, in our own

994
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 1: individual spheres feel a bit helpless, organizations like that one

995
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:40,320
Speaker 1: like represent Us that have scent bipartisan support to get

996
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 1: dark money out of politics, to start eradicating this corruption.

997
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 1: That makes me feel hopeful because I think to myself, well,

998
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 1: if the Supreme Court is going to be so partisan,

999
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 1: is to defend and uphold Citizens United. Maybe it really

1000
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 1: is on us to start these grassroots movements and and

1001
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:00,200
Speaker 1: change it from the bottom up. You know. Oh, I

1002
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 1: do believe in us, and I get excited when we

1003
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 1: wake up, and it's It's why I'm so excited to,

1004
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 1: you know, support your congressional run. And I can't wait

1005
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 1: to see Santa Fe. Oh any time. Santa Fe is

1006
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 1: one of my favorite places on Earth. I'm also curious because,

1007
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 1: as you know, we've we've touched on your book, and

1008
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 1: for everyone listening, if you haven't read Valerie's book, do

1009
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 1: yourself a favorite. It's amazing. But I was so struck

1010
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:30,040
Speaker 1: looking at it that the C I A Centsors blacked

1011
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 1: out about ten percent of the copy and redacted it.

1012
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 1: So as you're reading through the book there are just

1013
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 1: chunks missing that say redacted. Yeah, but but it's but

1014
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 1: it's wild too when you begin looking at it to go, oh, wow,

1015
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 1: this is what it's like to to work in this arena.

1016
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 1: Are there still things that you want to say but

1017
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:58,960
Speaker 1: you can't? I have, of course, there's things that you

1018
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: take a secrecy ow and you always and that's forever.

1019
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 1: I would never do anything to jeopardize the assets with

1020
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:10,919
Speaker 1: whom I had worked the very sensitive covert action programs,

1021
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 1: and I have no you know, that's that's the deal,

1022
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:16,920
Speaker 1: and I'm fine with that. It does feel good that

1023
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:19,760
Speaker 1: I feel that in some ways I really have found

1024
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 1: my voice. And there is something satisfying if I am

1025
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 1: given the honor of going to Washington, of being able

1026
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:32,120
Speaker 1: to say, you know, I live through this. I survived,

1027
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: and now I can go back to Washington and set

1028
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:39,439
Speaker 1: some work on things that I care about deeply. And

1029
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 1: there's a certain certain satisfaction to that. I love that.

1030
01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 1: And one thing I realized that we didn't touch on

1031
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:54,640
Speaker 1: so specifically earlier is the issue around ah You're then husband,

1032
01:06:54,720 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 1: Ambassador Wilson being sent to Niger. There was as there

1033
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 1: were accusations of nepotism that you had, you know, recommended him,

1034
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 1: even though in your letter you you said I wouldn't

1035
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: feel comfortable doing that. He could assist I wouldn't send him.

1036
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:14,360
Speaker 1: It's this is a this is a little too close

1037
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:18,840
Speaker 1: to home. How did that all play out? Just for

1038
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:21,960
Speaker 1: people who don't know the incremental details of the story,

1039
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:24,960
Speaker 1: brief I had nothing to do with his trip to Niger.

1040
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 1: Anyone who has ever worked for the government knows that

1041
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:33,920
Speaker 1: there is about four layers of approvals in terms of travel.

1042
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:38,720
Speaker 1: It's just ridiculous. It's ridiculous. He went pro bono. He

1043
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 1: only his travel was paid for. I had nothing, nothing,

1044
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 1: whatsoever to do with his trip asking him to go,

1045
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:50,240
Speaker 1: other than going home and saying, hey, there's some people

1046
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 1: at that you know, my boss of the CIA would

1047
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,080
Speaker 1: like you to come in and and talk to you

1048
01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 1: about a sensitive top topic. Um, it was just another

1049
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:02,640
Speaker 1: Republican talking point. Of course, nepotism, Give me a break,

1050
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 1: Like the irony. Nia is such a garden spot, right,

1051
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's literally the poorest country in the world.

1052
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 1: It's absurd. But because the Republicans had the power to

1053
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:19,679
Speaker 1: form the narrative for so long, that still pops up,

1054
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:22,639
Speaker 1: you know, And so it's just like, no, not really,

1055
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:24,439
Speaker 1: and it was never part of the story. And it's

1056
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:28,600
Speaker 1: got to feel so odd knowing that we we we

1057
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:34,559
Speaker 1: lauded this idea of service families. But then as you

1058
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:37,320
Speaker 1: both were then to two members of a family who

1059
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 1: were both in service to the government, you then got

1060
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,920
Speaker 1: raped over the coals for that, rather than celebrated for

1061
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 1: the fact that you both were succeeding in your own verticals,

1062
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:48,840
Speaker 1: And of course there's bound to be some sort of overlap.

1063
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:50,760
Speaker 1: If you worked in the same building, you'd run into

1064
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:53,479
Speaker 1: your spouse in the office. But that doesn't mean that

1065
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 1: you're in cahoots to be in that office. You're already there,

1066
01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:00,559
Speaker 1: of course not. It was just they were they were

1067
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 1: grasping at straws. But of course they were way more

1068
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 1: powerful than we were at that time. So they're a

1069
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:11,040
Speaker 1: narrative stuck. Whether it was oh, everyone knew who Valerie was,

1070
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:14,839
Speaker 1: I mean, she wasn't even covert, or that Joe Wilson,

1071
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:18,920
Speaker 1: he's such a loud mouth, or Valerie sent Joe Jenisaire

1072
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 1: so that a year and a half later he could

1073
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:25,880
Speaker 1: write this off edpiece. It's just fantastical, right, But if

1074
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:30,480
Speaker 1: you have the power of the narrative, it's pretty pretty significant.

1075
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,559
Speaker 1: And what a valuable lesson for us now. And when

1076
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:35,840
Speaker 1: we look at the current administration and we think about

1077
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:40,759
Speaker 1: accusations of nepotism and you see Jared and Ivanka holding

1078
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 1: positions in the White House with dangerous effect, I mean,

1079
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:51,799
Speaker 1: it's exhibits a it's horrifying. Vanka Jared, yikes, that's indeed

1080
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 1: that that is a big yikes for me, um and

1081
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 1: and and it makes me nervous too that you know,

1082
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 1: neither of them passed there background checks for security clearances,

1083
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:05,719
Speaker 1: but we're giving security ceriances by Trump anyway. That is outrage.

1084
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:07,920
Speaker 1: But every that was like a story for forty eight

1085
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:10,679
Speaker 1: hours and then everyone just moves on. I mean, there's

1086
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 1: so much news. We're so totally overwhelmed with news that

1087
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:20,479
Speaker 1: we can't even absorb and digest things like that until

1088
01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:24,040
Speaker 1: you're onto the next That's something I wish the media

1089
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:26,519
Speaker 1: was doing a better job of. Stop focusing on the

1090
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:30,120
Speaker 1: noise and focus on the news and keep beating the

1091
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 1: drum of why did two people who are completely unqualified

1092
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:39,639
Speaker 1: and failed background checks by our national security agencies? Why

1093
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:45,320
Speaker 1: were they given security clearances? Anyway? That's dangerous. You're right,

1094
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 1: the signal and the noise, we're missing it. We're missing

1095
01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:52,040
Speaker 1: it again. This is why I'm excited that you're running.

1096
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:55,639
Speaker 1: There's one question I like to ask everyone. The title

1097
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:58,880
Speaker 1: of the podcast is called work in progress, and I'm

1098
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:01,280
Speaker 1: curious when you hear phrase, what comes to mind is

1099
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:04,160
Speaker 1: a work in progress in your life? Right now? Oh?

1100
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:14,240
Speaker 1: Great question, Patience. I'm always I'm so impatient, and time

1101
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:18,759
Speaker 1: has taught me that it can be healing, that things change,

1102
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:21,680
Speaker 1: things that you are what's good now might not be

1103
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 1: good later, and what's bad now will change. But it's

1104
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 1: still a fight. I can't. I just wish I had

1105
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:32,719
Speaker 1: more of it and could take a more expansive view.

1106
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 1: That's just not how I'm wired. All the all the

1107
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:42,679
Speaker 1: meditative breathing in the world will not actually, uh, it's better,

1108
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:48,040
Speaker 1: But that is my work in progress is patience with

1109
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 1: myself and with others. Yeah, I feel that, and I

1110
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:55,680
Speaker 1: think especially when you are concerned with the world and

1111
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:57,760
Speaker 1: when you have that spirit of fighting for the world

1112
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:01,559
Speaker 1: and you impatience comes along hit you want things to

1113
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:05,280
Speaker 1: be better faster, and I exactly let's get going. I

1114
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:12,800
Speaker 1: get let's get going. This show is executive produced by me,

1115
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 1: Sophia Bush and sim Sarna. Our supervising producer is Alison Bresnick.

1116
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:22,559
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Cate Linley, Our editor is Josh Wendish,

1117
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:25,439
Speaker 1: and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced

1118
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 1: by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by

1119
01:12:28,080 --> 01:12:29,519
Speaker 1: Brilliant Anatomy. Asked