1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: Quody Doors with Joseph Scott Moore. Don't drink the koolid? 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: How many times have you heard people say that? And 3 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: it can be used for any number of various things 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: that you might be considering doing in life or people 5 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: that you're exposed to and they give you information. But 6 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: you know, that term never really existed at least I 7 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: don't think that it existed prior to a very specific 8 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: event that occurred down in South America in the late seventies, 9 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: involving a man named Jim Jones. Now how did he 10 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: get connected with that term? Well, he led a cult 11 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: and as part of this cult, he decided that the 12 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: world was coming to an end and that he was 13 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: going to take all of his fellow members with him 14 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: into the great beyond. And how did he do that 15 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: He used kool aid. Least with cyanide. Today, we're going 16 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: to explore a couple of cases here actually total of 17 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: six six people that in one moment their lives ended 18 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: in a hotel room in Thailand. And yes, this involved 19 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: cyanide as well. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 20 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: body Bags. Hey Dave, yes, sir, don't drink the kool aid? 21 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 2: Brother, oh man, whatever you do. 22 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, don't don't do it. You know, I've often heard 23 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: people refer or use that term, and I I think 24 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: that I don't think that people. I'm gonna go down 25 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: a path here, so just bear with me. I don't 26 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: think people actually understand the depth and breadth of what 27 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: happened in Jonestown. And just just let me tell you 28 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: a quick story. I actually talked to a guy many 29 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: years ago that I worked with that was an old 30 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: pathologist and he has passed on, and he he went 31 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: down there. He went down there in the wake of 32 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: this event we're talking about nine hundred dead David. And 33 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: when he got there, the where Jonestown was located in Ghana, Ghana, 34 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: I think it's that is that is that Guyana. The 35 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: jungle that surrounded the area was so dense, you know, 36 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: there's not a lot of roads coming in, so they 37 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: had to bring them in in helos. And he came 38 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: in in a what would have been a huey an 39 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: old hue you remember the old Vietnam helicopters that you 40 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: see every time you hear the song Fortunate Sun played, 41 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: you know, you see you know Helo coming in doors open, 42 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: he actually told me, he said, we were almost two 43 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: miles out and the doors on the helo were open. 44 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: I could smell I could smell the decay. Now you're 45 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: talking about a jungle environment and you're talking about nine 46 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: hundred bodies. But just let that sink in just for 47 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: a second. And that's that came about as a result 48 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: of these people being poisoned. And we're talking about men, women, 49 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: and children being poisoned with cyanide and their death was horrible. 50 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: I'd like to say that it was like really really quick. 51 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: You can't say that in every case. I think a 52 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: lot of people think that it just, you know, it 53 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: just happens. But it's still it's still very very brutal. 54 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: And you know what the case case is. I hate 55 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: to say just singularly case because you know, I don't 56 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: want to you know, devalue anybody's life here, because each 57 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: one of these deaths associated with this case cases is 58 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: an individual. But yeah, you know, we're talking about a mass, 59 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: a mass event with six people dead. 60 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 3: Dave and actually adding don't drink the kool aid as 61 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 3: or drinking the kool aid as part of the lexicon. 62 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 3: Interesting little sidebar of trivia. They didn't use kool Aid. 63 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 3: They used a generic kool Aid called flavor Aid, and 64 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 3: kool Aid got mad. It's one of those little pieces 65 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 3: of marketing information. 66 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: Interesting they use it called again, give me. 67 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 3: The flavor Aid. Flavor is a flavor Aid is a 68 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 3: knockoff of kool Aid. It's just a cheaper version, and 69 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 3: that's what they use used. But you know, it's interesting 70 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 3: that he, while Jim Jones, had conditioned his followers to 71 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 3: do this. They had had mock trials before. He conditioned 72 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 3: them that people were coming, they were going to be 73 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 3: wiped out, their children would be enslaved, and he would 74 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 3: then serve them coolly that wasn't laced. Gave them plenty 75 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 3: of time to go through these actions. I think it 76 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 3: was two or three times they had these midnight calls 77 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 3: where they would all gather and do this, and he 78 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 3: would say it was just a test. 79 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: Holy So I never knew this. 80 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a faith test because he didn't He 81 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 3: wanted to see what would happen if they truly did this. 82 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 3: Would there be an uprising, would people leave or would 83 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 3: they follow and do what he told them? Because you've 84 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 3: got to remember very quickly the reason this happened is 85 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 3: Jim Jones and his group were in northern California and 86 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 3: there were his church had become big. He was on 87 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 3: the city council in San Francisco. He became a real 88 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 3: player in town. But he was also a drug addict 89 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 3: and he had taken it to the next level in 90 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 3: terms of swindling people out of their life savings and 91 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 3: their homes and things like that. And his cult was flourishing. 92 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 3: But people were watching and they didn't like their family 93 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 3: members getting caught up in his cult. So they started 94 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 3: complaining to their local leaders. And so even though Jim 95 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 3: Jones was giving money to a lot of people, yeah, 96 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 3: they were investigating. And when he up and moved everybody 97 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 3: to Guyana and carved out this utopian society in the jungle, 98 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 3: there were family members here that were really upset and 99 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 3: they went to their congressman. His name was Leo Ryan. 100 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 3: Leo Ryan then organized a trip with some news media 101 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 3: and they went down to Jonestown to find out what 102 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 3: was really going on. While they were there, there's video 103 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 3: of this, you can see it all. While he was there, 104 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 3: he was given a little tour of things, and he 105 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 3: saw there were some things that maybe weren't too good, 106 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 3: but hey, the people seemed to be there voluntarily. But 107 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 3: that night, before they went to sleep, Leo Ryan was 108 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 3: given notes by people. They snuck notes to him saying 109 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 3: get me out of here, Get me out of here. 110 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 3: And so the next day when they were loading up 111 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 3: to go to the leave, Congressman got a few of 112 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 3: these people and they took them to the plane. But 113 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 3: then at the aircraft, as they're getting on the plane, 114 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 3: they were ambushed by some of jones henchmen. Congressman Leo 115 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 3: Ryan and the news guy were both murdered right there 116 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 3: on the tarmac in front of the plane, as well 117 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 3: as a few others, and Jim Jones announced to his people, 118 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 3: they're coming. The Congressman's dead, the traders are dead, and 119 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 3: they will be coming for us now we. 120 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: Have no choice. 121 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 3: That's how he got these people to follow through on 122 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 3: what he had been conditioning them for in drinking the 123 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 3: kool aid, which wasn't even kol aid, by the way. 124 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 3: Of all the people that died this very horrible way. 125 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 3: There's audio tape of Jim Jones talking to them, and 126 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 3: you hear the wails of mothers watching it, holding their children. 127 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 3: People crying, I don't want to die. It was horrible. 128 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 3: But the one person who didn't take the kool aid 129 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 3: was Jim Jones. He shot himself in the head. Now 130 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 3: I encourage any one, please, for the love do a 131 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 3: little research on Jim Jones and how he took a 132 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 3: true belief and made it so wicked that over nine 133 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 3: hundred people were following him in death. 134 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: You know, and I wonder, you know, particularly as we 135 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:28,559 Speaker 1: talk about the topic at hand today, the idea that 136 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: cyanide poisoning is a real thing that has occurred for 137 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,599 Speaker 1: quite a bit of time. You wonder, and this is 138 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: kind of maybe a broad ranging philosophical question, if that 139 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: had not occurred. We've always known that sinoid is very toxic, obviously, 140 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: but if that event in Jonestown had not occurred back then, 141 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: how many you know, how did that affect maybe that 142 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: come in the case we're going to talk today, you know, 143 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: because people understand the lethality of it, and did it 144 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: you know, does it influence people? You know? Moving forward? 145 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: You know, how is it that I could take out 146 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 1: a large number of people and be very stealthy about it. 147 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: You know, I don't think there was stealth necessarily involved 148 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: in In Jim Jones's case, it was very direct. But 149 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: if you wanted to facilitate something where there's not going 150 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: to be any awareness, and that's that's the thing about poisoners, 151 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: and I've always been fascinated by them in the sense 152 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 1: that they're. 153 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 2: There. 154 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: They want to fly under the radar to the point 155 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: where they're not going to be detected on any level. 156 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: And I think you know, you even look at like 157 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: the the infamous Talent All poisonings, you know that that occurred, 158 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: you know years ago. You know all of those people 159 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: that kind of slipped things in just for a moment. 160 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: They're not going to walk up and you know, the 161 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: somebody they dislike and they're going to shoot them in 162 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: the head. Now, this is there's something that is so 163 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: particularly evil about this because you have to get just 164 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: keep in mind, in order to administer something like this, 165 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: you have to be in somebody's very intimate personal space. 166 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: You have to know that they have to ingest it 167 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: in order for it to work, because if it's just 168 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: sitting there, though, it is dangerous, But if you can 169 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: get them to ingest it, how much more lethal and 170 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: how are you going to facilitate them ingesting it. What's 171 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: going to be the guarantee that this is going to 172 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: actually happen? 173 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 3: Dave, you could just what actually, Joe, Yeah, it's so 174 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 3: amazing that you said that, because I'm thinking, all right, 175 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 3: there are when you've got six people dead and they 176 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 3: all know one another, and they've all gathered in this 177 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 3: very upscale hotel to discuss an investment. They have all 178 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 3: and I we searched the hotel because just because somebody 179 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 3: says it's a ritzy hotel, well that's all perspective, you know, 180 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 3: it's what is ritzy to you. It might not be 181 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 3: the same for me. So I looked at the area 182 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 3: of the hotel, what type it's five star, this is 183 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 3: top of the line. Okay, this is a nice place, 184 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 3: an expensive place. So these are the type of investors 185 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 3: and there is some discussion right now what they were 186 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 3: investing in, but my belief is that it was in 187 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 3: a hospital in Japan. We've got two American Vietnamese citizens 188 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 3: and four that are Vietnamese. So we've got a group 189 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 3: of people that know one another, are involved in a 190 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 3: business venture and maybe something's not quite going right. So 191 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 3: that's how they all come to gather in this one place, 192 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 3: in this ritzy hotel. And by the way, they had plans. See, 193 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 3: at first people thought maybe it was a suicide that 194 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 3: they all voluntarily got together in decided, you know, the 195 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 3: help up comments not coming by, let's go ahead and 196 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 3: do it. You know, they didn't have a doe to follow. 197 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 3: But in this case, police believe that they were there 198 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 3: to get some answers about their finance and they had plans. 199 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 3: They had plans for the following day. They were going 200 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 3: to be hitting the big expensive spots. They had stuff 201 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 3: going on. So it wasn't like they all went there 202 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 3: to die. So take the suicide off the table. 203 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you have to. However, you cannot completely 204 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: dismiss the idea of suicide. But it was the individual, okay, right, 205 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: But when you have a group of people, what would 206 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: be the motivation, you know, for us to all gather 207 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: together and want accord and simultaneously take our lives that Yeah, 208 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: you're right, I think that they would abandon that premise 209 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: pretty quickly, and you have, but you still have to 210 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: keep that in the back of your mind. And also, 211 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: if there is a a perpetrator, a single perpetrator that 212 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: is responsible for this action? Was their intent to be suicide? 213 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: So does this turn into does this turn into a 214 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: murder suicide investigation at this point, Tom, or is it just. 215 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 2: A murder or is it just you're right? 216 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: Yeah? 217 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 3: But what if? What if it was a planned to er. 218 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 3: I'm going to kill my partners in this. I'm taking 219 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 3: over the whole thing, and the murderer accidentally drank from 220 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 3: the wrong cup. Because what we have here the delivery 221 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 3: method for the cyanide, which I don't, Joe, really know 222 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 3: what cyanide is. I don't know what it looks like 223 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 3: or if it has a smell. I don't know how 224 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 3: one gets it into a drink without anybody knowing. I 225 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 3: don't know any of that, and I'm hoping you can 226 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 3: shed light on it because at this point, we had 227 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 3: six people dead and we know it's cyanide because that's 228 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 3: what we've been told by police. But I know how 229 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 3: you would find that out. You walk into a room 230 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 3: there's six dead people, and you're looking at food on 231 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 3: the table that's still wrapped like it was delivered, but 232 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 3: you can tell they've all had a toast of some type, 233 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 3: They've had something to drink. How do you find out 234 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 3: what happened? How do you test well? 235 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: I can tell you this from Jump Street. If you're 236 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: a death investigator or a forensic scientist and you walk 237 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: in to a room with six dead bodies and there 238 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: are no spent casings on the ground, you better tread 239 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: carefully because there might be something in there. It might 240 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: take your life as well. Brother Dave, I got a 241 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: question for you, man. If you were given a selection 242 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: between peanuts pecans, I say pecans, not pecans. My granny 243 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: used to say, pecans something you keep under the bed. 244 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: Walnuts and I don't know Philbert's, I don't know, they 245 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: go on and on an almonds. Out of that complete selection, 246 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: what what would you choose? Well? Nuts really okay? 247 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? 248 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: No I like one. 249 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 3: I mean I really yeah. I like eating nuts. I 250 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 3: buy them makes nuts, you know when I'm buying them, 251 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 3: or you know. 252 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: Walnuts wal nuts. 253 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you something. Have have you ever 254 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: have you ever smelled I feel like you're again, I 255 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: feel like there's no, there's no I got to ask 256 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: you though, have you ever smelled? 257 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 2: Well? 258 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: Some people will say that there's an association between smelling 259 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: burnt toast and having a stroke. I don't know if 260 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: that's valid or not. I have not. Yeah, yeah, some 261 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: of people will say that. But did you know that 262 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: there's something associated with cyanide poisoning that is a particular 263 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: smell now that only forty percent of us can actually smell, 264 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: and that is that's cyanide. Sanide actually gives off the 265 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: smell of toasted or burnt almonds. And if kind of 266 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: kind of weird, isn't it. And so when yeah, you 267 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: think about and another yeah, and so another quick quick aside. 268 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: I think during the course of my career, I think 269 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: maybe I handled three cyanide related deaths over that period 270 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: of time. By the way, I was terrified by them 271 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: being in the presence of the substance, or allegedly present 272 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: in the substance, and in the presence of the substance, 273 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: and I assisted in two of the autopsies and was 274 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: present for another one. Do you know I could not 275 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: smell the smell, but other people in the room could 276 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: smell the smell, And so for me, yeah, yeah, only 277 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: forty They claim that only forty percent of the population 278 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: can actually smell the smell of burnt almonds as it's 279 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: associated with sinoid. I'm not saying that I couldn't take almonds, 280 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: put them in a frying pan and scorch them, and 281 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: you know I would be able to smell that. But 282 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: this this idea that you can pick up on the smell. 283 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: Some people say that that you can, so I was 284 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: always I've always been fascinated by that. But that is 285 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: associated with sinid poisoning, something that you can actually pick 286 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: up on. And I really wonder, going back to this 287 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: fine hotel inland in Thailand, if if the investigators actually 288 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 1: walked in, can you imagine you walk in to this room. 289 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: These people have not been seen. They did not check 290 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: out when they were supposed to. 291 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 3: Right And by the way, Joe, for you or me, 292 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 3: when we're in a hotel and the checkout time comes, 293 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 3: for me, it's five minutes after checkout time, they're at 294 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 3: the door going are you still here? Why are you 295 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 3: still here? But when you're when you're rich, it's a 296 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 3: little different. You stand out. They were there an extra day, Okay, 297 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 3: they gave these people an entire day beyond when they 298 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 3: were supposed to check out. That's the difference, a telling 299 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 3: difference between the ridge and the rest of us. They 300 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 3: got an extra day before the cleaning person. 301 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: You got people knocking on my door all the time, 302 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: when when I actually when we were leaving crom Coon 303 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: in Nashville, uh you know we yeah, I had they 304 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: were banging on my door and we were we had 305 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: brought so much stuff with us, you know, for for 306 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: the and we had it all piled in our room. 307 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, the idea that and again this goes to 308 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: timeline from an investigative standpoint, how long had these people 309 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: been down when they're discovered in this hotel room, and 310 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: what what's going to be, what's the status and once 311 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: they're all fine. One of the things that's always amazed 312 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: me with a massed death event is not that as 313 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: an invest skater, I'm present amongst the dead. That's a known, 314 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: that's a given, that's what you sign on for. I'm 315 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: always amazed by the people that are the finders that 316 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: you're the person that has the passkey, Dave. Just for 317 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: a second consider this. You're the person with the pass 318 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: key that gets into the room. Now, in this case, 319 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: I think the door was actually locked from the inside, 320 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: which is quite telling. But let's just say you're the 321 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: person that has to put your shoulder to the door 322 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: if you will and or take the pry bar and 323 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: crack that thing open. You imagine, just as the door 324 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: begins to open up, you suddenly realize that in a 325 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: hotel room, let's just think about a hotel room. We 326 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: know how big it is. We know that there are 327 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: yah We've got kind of a semi living area. We've 328 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: got a bed area, We've got a bathroom. If it's 329 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: a sweet you might have it kind of divided off. 330 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: You might have a dining area, you've got you've got 331 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: six dead people. What in the world do you make 332 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: of it? Because I got to tell you at a 333 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: primal level, I was not saying that passively, just a 334 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: moment ago where you can walk into this environment and 335 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: and not have that in dwelling fear. Did you know 336 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: that when we do autopsies on burn victims, okay that 337 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: die in house fires, did you know that sinid shows 338 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: up and their talks reports. Because it's a component, it's 339 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: a component of some manufactured furnitures that are out there, 340 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: and appointments, carpets, that sort of thing. And so when 341 00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: we do what's referred to in when we're doing deaths 342 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: related to fires, we do what's called a carboxy hemoglobin level, 343 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: and that that gives you an idea of how much 344 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: carbon monoxide that the individual's taken on. That means that 345 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: they were breathing during the time of the fire. But 346 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: one of the little side elements that you find many 347 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: times are these toxic substances. So one of them will 348 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: will be cyanide. And I'll when at Jack State, when 349 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: I'm teaching, teaching my classes, particularly when it comes to 350 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: fire related deaths and fire investigations, I'll tap on these 351 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: plastic tables, these laminated tables, and tell them, you know, 352 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: everything in here, these components that you see around you. 353 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: If this stuff goes up in flame and you're adjacent 354 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: to it, you're going to be taking on these elements 355 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: because they're essentially vaporized at that point in time. And 356 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: so syinide is something that is around us. It's around 357 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: us at all times. It's just not in concentrated levels 358 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: where we're where we're going to take and we're going 359 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: to die from it, or it hasn't been unleashed as 360 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: a result of interaction with heat and that sort of thing. 361 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: But we've always known that it leaves hey listen for 362 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: years and years day people that states that utilize the 363 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: gas chamber. Sinide was the chosen methodology the nazis you cyanide? 364 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 3: Okay, Well that's what I was going to ask you, Joe, 365 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 3: because in a lot of movies, I'm thinking, actually, you 366 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 3: know Captain America when they did the boot on that 367 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 3: back ten fifteen years ago, and when he first becomes 368 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 3: Captain America and he chases the Nazi out of the 369 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 3: room and he pulls the Nazi out of the jet 370 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 3: plane that is actually underwater, and he throws him up 371 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 3: on the shore and he says, you know, take one 372 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 3: of that tool or places. And the guy pops the 373 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 3: tooth and chomps down on the cyanide capsule and dies. 374 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 3: That's why I was curious about how long it takes 375 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 3: to take effect. Are there different levels of the cyanide 376 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 3: and the other thing, Joe? Until you mentioned it, it 377 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 3: didn't occur to me the fear that would strike in 378 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 3: the hearts of man to open a door find six 379 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 3: people dead and there's no bloodshot, there's no gun, there's 380 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 3: no knife. They're just laying there dead and they're not 381 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 3: all like sitting around a table doing a seance and 382 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 3: died they died where one person had almost made it 383 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 3: to the door, another person was on the way towards 384 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 3: the door, two were near the table area, and there 385 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 3: were two in the bedroom. So you've got six people 386 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 3: spread out dead, but no signs of being beaten. There's 387 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 3: no signs of a struggle, no signs of a fight. 388 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 3: I mean, you've got six dead people and you can't 389 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 3: tell anything about it. It didn't occur to me the 390 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 3: fear that would hit somebody, going I could die in here. Now, 391 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 3: what if it's a leak of some kind. 392 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's terriflying for investigators when you out on 393 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: cases like this. I may have mentioned this before, but 394 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: you know, I had a family of six or seven 395 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: that died in a home where uh, this brain surgeon 396 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: of an uncle came over to fix the wall heater 397 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: and he reversed, he reversed the fan on the thing 398 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: and it uh and it got cold and it it 399 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: the exhaust fan ran backwards essentially and it blew, it 400 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: blew carbon monoxide into the home. And so as we 401 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: were working this case, and to give you an idea 402 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: of the level of danger, and this is not this 403 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: is not syinid. This is carbon monoxide. Uh we, I 404 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: had to go to the hospital. I was in the 405 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 1: hospital for eight hours, I think on on oxygen. My 406 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: head was pounding, my eyes with bloodshot, and two of 407 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: my colleagues were in there. And you know, this is 408 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: after the fire department had come out and said, you know, 409 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: they used the big fans to kind of ventilate the 410 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: area where they you know, they use and it had 411 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: not been sufficiently ventilated. So anytime you walk in to 412 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: an environment, you can't, as an investigator, think that you're safe. 413 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: I actually had a friend of mine that walked into 414 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: a suicide with a fellow that had shot himself with 415 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: a pistol, and the suicide the room he had booby trapped. 416 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: It actually booba trapped with a deer rifle. And if 417 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: the if the string that was attached to the trigger 418 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: housing had not been discovered, anybody bending over the body 419 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: and manipulating a door that was immediately could have been 420 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: shot through the chest with his deer rifle. So, yeah, 421 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: it is evil. And you know, we talk about, you know, 422 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: with explosives, we talk about secondary devices and i'll you know, 423 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: where they draw you in. And then so my thought 424 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: is this, anybody that's willing to take either their life 425 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: or somebody else that's like your life as an investigator 426 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 1: has no value to them whatsoever. And that has to 427 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: and as cynical as that is, that has to be 428 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: your worldview because my goal at the end of the 429 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: day is to be able to go home to my 430 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,719 Speaker 1: family and my kids and all that sort of thing. 431 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: You're there as an investigator, but you're not in a 432 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: You're in an environment where life has just ended. So 433 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: with that said, when we're thinking about how do you 434 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: get this substance? First off, how do you acquire it? Well, 435 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: it's acquired through a variety of methodologies and means yeah, yeah. 436 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 3: Hey, let me ask you, Joe, just very quick. You've 437 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 3: got six bodies in this hotel suite. You see that 438 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 3: there is food on the table that's still rapid, hasn't 439 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 3: been eaten. You can see that drinks have been consumed. 440 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 3: But the people are in different areas. Where does the 441 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 3: investigation begin? Because I have to assume, and I don't 442 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 3: think I'm in correcting the assumption that you're going to 443 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 3: be calling if you're a cop, you're calling in the 444 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 3: detectives and the medical examiner. You've got to have somebody 445 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 3: in the that knows how people die, how they live, 446 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 3: and know what could have possibly caused this to happen. 447 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 2: Before you move a body. 448 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you do, and you'll get you'll get certain 449 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: indicators at the scene as to what you might be 450 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: dealing with when you look at the at the bodies, 451 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: because the bodies take on a certain appearance after death, 452 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: all right, when they're exposed to sign on it. We're 453 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: thinking about, interestingly enough, a condition called cyanosis, for instance, 454 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: which is kind of a purplish hue. We see that. 455 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean it's yeah, you will actually see this 456 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: kind of purplish hue that will in the nail beds. 457 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: You want to look at that. But some of that 458 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: stuff can be confused with decomposition, and we're talking about 459 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 1: people that should have been checked out of the room 460 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 1: twenty four hours beforehand. So is what you're seeing related 461 00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: to decompositional changes or is this actually a presentation as 462 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: a result of being exposed to syni So you have 463 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: to do that in your calculus as well. I don't know. 464 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: I think that here's the problem. First off, you don't 465 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: know what the agent is. You don't know if it's 466 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: if it is an agent to begin with. If this 467 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: was an accidental event, you know, we just I don't 468 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: know if you recall this, but a couple of years 469 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: ago we had these scares down in the Caribbean where 470 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 1: these people were dying on vacation. I think they even 471 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 1: did a TV series about it. But you know, the 472 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: stuff that was coming in through the ventilation system and 473 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: hotels and whatnot. But when you don't necessarily have a 474 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: source for this, everything should be considered. So yeah, the 475 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: Emmy would definitely need to be at the scene. They 476 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: would need to take great care as to what the 477 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: way they were handling things. I think one of my 478 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: biggest concerns would be is if you're dealing with a 479 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: substance like arsenic, if you're not wearing gloves, for instance, 480 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: is it transdermal? Is it something you're going to absorb? Uh? 481 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: Is is there any chance that that as a result 482 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: of manipulating the bodies or handling the bodies, Uh, you're 483 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,959 Speaker 1: going to run a foul of anything else that's in 484 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: there because you don't know, you don't know what's in 485 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: these hidden spaces. 486 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 3: So it's you mentioned arsenic, is arsenic andide. 487 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: No, they're not. They're they're two separate things. Arsenic Is 488 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: is actually a heavy metal uh and and cyanide, of 489 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: course is not. It's compound. And so you've you've got 490 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: you've got two separate things that you're dealing with here, 491 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: but they're both. They have a certain level of lethality. 492 00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 2: Uh. 493 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: You even look at things like strick nine poisoning. We've 494 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: heard that for years and years. You know, there are 495 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: certain religious cults denominations out there that would in the 496 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: past actually drink drink strychnine to prove their faith, you know, 497 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: these sorts of things. So you have a variety of 498 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: different things that are out there that have a level 499 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: of lethality to them. Sinide, though, is detectable. It's not 500 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: something that you're going to It's not something that is 501 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: stealthy in the sense that the toxicology is not going 502 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: to reveal that it was there and that it's what 503 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: led to the death. The other piece of this is 504 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: that with these folks in the hotel room, each one 505 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: of their autopsies, you're going to see physical manifestations of 506 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: you know, presenting on their body. Here's what you can't 507 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: get past. As you're taking this in and I think 508 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: that at this point at least we believe that this 509 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: may have been have ingested as a result of it 510 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: was transmitted to them perhaps apps through a drink of tea. 511 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: You would not only want to pull the tos on 512 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: them and examine whatever is going on systemically in their 513 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: circulatory system, but also those cups are going to be 514 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: essential as well if there's any residue that's left behind. 515 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: What was the level of dosage that was applied to them, 516 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: how pure was the substance, Because once it once it hits, 517 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: once it hits and gets into the system, it's almost 518 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: impossible to reverse this circumstance. It's almost you're in a 519 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: irrecoverable flat spin at this point of time. One of 520 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: the most telling pieces to these cases is, and I 521 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: think something that is quite chilling is the fact that 522 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: the chief of Police for the Bangkok Police Department, and 523 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: by the way, they were refusing to release the names 524 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: at this point in time, in regards to this event, 525 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: the chief of Police stated that when they entered this 526 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: hotel room, Dave that it appeared that two of the 527 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: individuals had tried to make it to the door. So 528 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: they know this is what's so chilling about. They know 529 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: that there's something going on, and that also gives you 530 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: an indication of positionality of the bodies at the scene. 531 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: If the chief of police is actually coming. And we're 532 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: not talking about any small place here, we're talking about Bangkok. Arguably, 533 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: I don't know where it stacks up. It's one of 534 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: the largest cities in the world. I think when this 535 00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: person is coming out and saying that it looks like 536 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: trying to get to the door, that means that positionality 537 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: directionality they're laying as if they're trying to make it 538 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: to the door to try to get help. But that's 539 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: how quickly, that's how quickly cyanid can actually work. That 540 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: they couldn't even go to because just think how the 541 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: dynamic of all this would have changed if they had 542 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: made it to the door, if they had just cracked 543 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: the door, unlocked the door, and gotten out and maybe 544 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: had died in the hallway, we'd be looking at something 545 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: completely different here. But this was still all self contained. 546 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: They didn't even have the energy or the ability to 547 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: actually the door lock to get out, but they feel 548 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: as though that they were trying to escape, maybe trying 549 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: to get to help. How hopeless is this, Dave? 550 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 3: You know, population in Bangkok is nine million, so you're 551 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 3: talking pretty much in New York City type. That's how 552 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 3: big of a city this is. And they do know 553 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,959 Speaker 3: what they're doing. But the police have been very careful. 554 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 3: And I'm glad you've mentioned this a couple of times, Joe, 555 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 3: because when we're reporting on cases, we like to identify 556 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 3: the victims. I don't like to give them a number 557 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 3: or group them all together because it seems disrespectful. 558 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 2: And I think about if. 559 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 3: Somebody's listening right this minute and knows somebody who passed 560 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 3: like that, I don't want you to think we're being 561 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 3: that way. They just are choosing to not release the 562 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 3: information at this time. But what we do know, because 563 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 3: even most of the press is not even indicating the 564 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 3: gender of the individual that they suspect for doing this. 565 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 3: As I mentioned earlier, they do suspect that one person 566 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 3: here committed murder and then suicide. But Joe, when you 567 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:43,479 Speaker 3: talked about they got to they were going towards the door. Yeah, 568 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 3: all I could think of in my head because I 569 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 3: don't know how this works. But how long does it 570 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 3: take for cyanid to react to kill somebody first of all. 571 00:34:54,920 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 3: But I'm just a regular Joe Schmoe here, and I 572 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 3: have to wonder if I started researching something like cyanide, 573 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 3: how to acquire it, how to use it. I just 574 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 3: it seems like something would pop up on the Internet 575 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 3: security stuff somewhere. You know, that somebody would know that 576 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 3: that I was searching for this stuff, and that they 577 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 3: would connect the dots. 578 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 2: And you can't do that day you're you know. 579 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,439 Speaker 1: You know, my colleagues, not a university. We we will 580 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: equip over this every now and then and we'll say, 581 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: you know, if people could see the stuff that you know, 582 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: particularly in forensics, right that you're sourcing, you're looking for Yeah, 583 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 1: you were thinking, oh my god, they're thinking we're plotting 584 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:40,760 Speaker 1: some kind of dastardly event. 585 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 3: Well, Joe, if you and I talk about canoes and 586 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 3: going down the little Creek, all of a sudden on 587 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 3: social media, on Facebook, I'm going to see ads for canoes. 588 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, So they're not listening. 589 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: Well, you know the thing about it is with sinide, 590 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: I think one of the big questions is, well, how 591 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: would you go about procuring san nod? You know, what's 592 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: the utility of it so, and that's where the police 593 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: have to start, you know, because you have to understand 594 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 1: the sourcing of this very highly toxic compound. I mean, 595 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: it's it is. It has such a level of lethality 596 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: to it, and you have to take great care when 597 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: it's being utilized. But let's say, for instance, it's used 598 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: in metallurgical pursuits for instance. Uh, you have people that 599 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: are doing jewelry that that this actually requires an application 600 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: of of of a use of sin node. And actually, 601 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's certain like there's a color that 602 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: if you're doing like working with bronze, for instance, there's 603 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: a color that cyanide will bring out in bronze when 604 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: you're crafting it. For instance. It's been used there. 605 00:36:58,360 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 2: Uh. 606 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: And of course you know sinid has been used for 607 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 1: a long time just for poisoning. And I'm not talking 608 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: about like homicidal poisoning. I'm talking about if you're trying 609 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 1: to get rid of I know that it's been applied 610 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: uh for uh, let's see what was it. It's been 611 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: applied for cody codes to get rid of them. I 612 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: think even in Australia, people don't realize that possums are 613 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: not indigenous to Australia and the Ousie used it, I 614 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 1: believe to eradicate possum population down there. So it has 615 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: a lot of utility, uh and has had for a 616 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: lot of you know, over the years. 617 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 3: So you can have a legitimate reason to get without 618 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 3: a raising attention. 619 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I would I would want to try 620 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: to source that to anybody that was working adjacent for 621 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: My first stop is probably going to be anybody that's 622 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: involved with jewelry period, because how can you justify the 623 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: acquisition of it or did you go to the black 624 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: market and pick it up right? I don't know. I 625 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: don't know what their abilities are to. 626 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 3: All something like fentanyl. You know, we've heard about how 627 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 3: deadly fentanyl is recently and now it's there. They've told 628 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 3: us that simply touching it, observing through the skin, it 629 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 3: can be deadly. It can cause a lot of problems. 630 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 3: Is cyanide the same way? 631 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:19,839 Speaker 1: You know, Dave, I'd have to say if we if 632 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: we were going to compare fentanyl and sinide, one of 633 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: the big differences here is that fentanyl, believe it or not, 634 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:34,240 Speaker 1: actually has u has a therapeutic use and it has 635 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: I mean for years and years. It's a precursor for 636 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: you know, things like I don't know, for anesthesia, those 637 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: sorts of things that we even have fentanyl patches. There 638 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: is no kind of I'm sure I'll get some pushback 639 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 1: on this, but there is no medicinal use for cyanide 640 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: se it's something that's used in industry. So with the 641 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: Taie Police, as they're conducting this investigation, they're going to 642 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: have to consider, first off, how this person and we 643 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: believe that it's one of the females that is involved 644 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: in this that facilitated this allegedly at this point in time, 645 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 1: it would seem that way, one of the females that 646 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: was deceased inside of the inside of the room. How 647 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 1: how did she source this stuff? Because I got to 648 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,919 Speaker 1: tell you, Dave, I got to tell you that, if 649 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: in fact she got this from somebody, I'm going to 650 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: take a long, hard look at the source during the 651 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 1: course of this investigation, and they they might run the 652 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: risk in this particular case, as you know, being maybe 653 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: part and parcel of this event, you know, and you 654 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: can't you know, merely just you know, raise your shoulders 655 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: and say, well, I didn't know that this was what 656 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: she was going to use it for We're going to 657 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: have a talk, you know, with that person, And so 658 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: I think that that's something that has to be considered 659 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: here as well. Was there somebody else that may have 660 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: been involved in this, particularly when it comes because this 661 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: is not something like you're going to go down to 662 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: uh the hardware and say, hey, yeah, let me get 663 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 1: a pound of cyanide, you know. So it's it has 664 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 1: a very specific point of origin here, I think, and 665 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: that's that's certainly something that's going to have to be 666 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: looked at, Dave. 667 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 3: If somebody mixed dinied in with my coffee and I 668 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 3: drank it, what would be the first sign that something 669 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 3: was wrong? Would I have a headache? Would I start sweating? 670 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 3: What would go through physiologically with me to know some 671 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 3: bad just happened? 672 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, first off, let's don't use personal pronouns with you. 673 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 1: I value you too much. Let's just say let's just 674 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 1: let's just say, okay, if somebody all right, I don't 675 00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 1: I don't want to be involved in that conversation. But 676 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 1: some of the things that that you're you're going to 677 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: look for that an individual would have an indication And 678 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,799 Speaker 1: this is something that that's quite fascinating to me because 679 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: you've got kind of a group dynamic, Dave. Can you 680 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: imagine being seated at the table, right, and you're eyeballing 681 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: one another all around the table, and all of a sudden, 682 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: you all start presenting with the symptoms. You're short of breath, 683 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: you've got a rapid, rapid heart beat. You you might 684 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: begin to seize as well, because seizures are one of 685 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: the things that's associated with and it's going to impact 686 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 1: everybody at a at a different level. There's going to 687 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,240 Speaker 1: be like a malaise or a kind of a weakness. 688 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: You can have disney as three two, You can have dizziness. 689 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: So if they try to stand up and ambulate in 690 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,400 Speaker 1: any way, they might begin to sway left right, There's vertigo, 691 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: all kinds of things, and of course there's confusion. And 692 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: isn't that horrible to think about it? With all of 693 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: these people and we're saying all this group dynamic of 694 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,760 Speaker 1: six people in the room, and all of a sudden, 695 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: the room starts to spin. They're disoriented until finally unconsciousness hits. 696 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 1: Now understand that that with that with with exposure to 697 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: to the cyanide. This is happening at a cellular level 698 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: where literally cellular respiration begins to cease, and it starts 699 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: off in that tiny, tiny little context like that, and 700 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,439 Speaker 1: it extends out. So that's why you you would begin 701 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: to get these kind of progressive symptoms that are presenting. 702 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:45,839 Speaker 3: One thing I did look at is said their lives 703 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 3: were purple, and that was one of the signs. But 704 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,320 Speaker 3: I was thinking, what if there are there other signs? 705 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 3: I mean, does your face become red as you and 706 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:54,919 Speaker 3: I are sitting here, do you go, hey, Dave, you're 707 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 3: like turning into the little girl that gets the blueberries 708 00:42:58,800 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 3: and Willie well. 709 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:05,359 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, cyanosis nail beds or something that we look 710 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: at very commonly, pretty pretty quickly. And the body is 711 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 1: essentially and I don't mean this in a litterle term 712 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:20,440 Speaker 1: of being strangled, your your ability to uptake oxygen is 713 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,359 Speaker 1: being strangulated in the sense that you're turning this this 714 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:29,280 Speaker 1: purple color. Cyanotic lips will turn purple, gumline, the gumlt 715 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 1: will actually turn purple. You'll see this presentation and it's it. 716 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,760 Speaker 1: You know, as an investigator, one of things that always 717 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 1: troubled me there was even more offensive than dealing with 718 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: decomposed bodies or cyanotic bodies. And many times you'll get cyanotic. 719 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: You'll have people that are cyanotic that are having a 720 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,839 Speaker 1: heart event as well. And again oxygen is not being 721 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,280 Speaker 1: processed in the body. So we look from what's called 722 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 1: the nipple line up. You'll see this this kind of 723 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 1: eggplant color that will come on people. And for me 724 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: as an investigator, it was always like, you know, it's 725 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: always it was really striking to me. You know, you'd 726 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,840 Speaker 1: mentioned Willy Wonka. You know, my daughter's a blueberry, you 727 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,320 Speaker 1: know that sort of thing, and yeah, you get that color, 728 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,799 Speaker 1: and that's a very I'm talking about the original, the 729 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:21,920 Speaker 1: real Willy Wonka. Ye that her presentation in that movie. 730 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 1: If you're wondering what syonosis looks like, that's kind of 731 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: how it looks. And so, yeah, you would get that presentation, 732 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: i'd be And again that adds another level of horror 733 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,240 Speaker 1: to this. Can you imagine you're sitting around the table, 734 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: you're having difficulty breathing, and then if you're able to 735 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: process this visually, you see your friends sitting at the table, 736 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 1: they're clutching their throat, they're gasping for breath and you're 737 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: alterning purple. Yeah, just think of the horror of that. 738 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 1: I don't know that you can actually measure that in 739 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: any way, David. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 740 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 1: body Bags.