WEBVTT - Ep 301: Your Job Is Killing You ft. Deepa Purushothaman 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.920 Hey, Hey, via fam, it is Mandra back with another 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.760 episode of Brown Ambition. Today's guest, y'all, is incredibly special. 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:18.400 I had the opportunity to speak with Today's guests last week, 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:20.840 and I knew from that conversation that I was like, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:22.520 you have to be on Brown Ambition. And this is 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:25.080 how quickly I made it happen. Okay, within one week, 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.560 I have her on the show, and I am so 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.479 excited to bring today's guest to you. Her name is 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:34.720 Deepa Pershathaman. She is I don't even You're gonna have 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.880 to bear with me because this woman's accolades and titles 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:40.320 are just they go on for miles and miles and miles. 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:42.559 And I'm going to fight my own imposter syndrome and 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:44.400 explain a little bit to y'all about who my new 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.159 friend Depa is. Okay, Not only is Depa the co 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:51.160 founder of her own company called Information, which provides brave 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.720 safe space for professional women of color to advance in 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.640 their careers, she is also a women in Public Policy 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.279 program leader in practice at Harvard Kennedy's School. You may 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:03.800 have heard of it. Prior to that, Deepa spent more 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:06.760 than twenty years in Corporate America at Deloitte, and she 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:09.800 was the first Indian American woman to make partner in 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:14.920 the company's history history and with Deepa's deep knowledge of 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:17.360 what it means to be one of the first, one 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:19.600 of the few, one of the only, she wrote a 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:21.759 beautiful book which you guys have to go pick up. 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.880 It just was released earlier this month. Go find her 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:28.400 new book. It's called The First, the Only, How Women 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:32.479 of Color can Redefine power in Corporate America. Like I said, 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:34.920 it's out right now. Go to the show notes, you 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:37.119 can download your copy, you can pick up the book. 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:39.280 We have to support. I'm telling you, when women of 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:41.560 color publish books, I think it is all of our 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.240 duty to go and purchase them so that other women 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:47.440 of color can get book deals. Right. So, in this book, 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:51.440 which is so unique, Deepa chronicles over five hundred interviews 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.400 with women of color, women who were not just people 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.320 of color in corporate America, but their own version of 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.000 the first, the fuse or the onlies in corporate America 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.400 and Dipa in her book talks about why it's finally 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:07.600 time to stop glamorizing women of color leaders in corporate America. 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.520 Thank you for that, and how we can start dismantling 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:15.320 those outdated power structures so that only a few of 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:17.799 us seem to be able to make it, and how 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:21.760 that few can become many instead. So thank you so 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:23.480 much for letting me brag on you, DIPA. 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:25.720 I know, thank you for having me. 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.000 Comfortable to listen to your own bio. But I was like, 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.160 you're going to listen to it? Oh, but you did it, 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:32.640 you survived. Thank you so much for joining Brown Ambition. 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:35.399 I'm so excited to chat with you. I just feel 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.520 like we have so many things to talk about right now, so. 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.639 Let's jump into it. First. Few only different. I mean, 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.079 I think you and I intimately as well as our audience, 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:49.880 knows what that is like, knows how isolating it can feel. 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:52.280 But I love and you know where I think you 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:54.880 and I have in common. One of the many things 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.760 is that we were able to thrive in corporate America 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.720 in spite of being one of the few. You know, 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.840 first only difference in our world, And I know, I 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:06.720 feel like what was so isolating was that within your 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:08.760 company there weren't many people who look like you to 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.520 turn to. But as soon as I sort of opened 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:15.480 up to meeting the first few only difference outside of 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:17.920 my company, and you know, started to open myself up 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:21.080 to building those relationships. I was like, Okay, it feels 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.120 like I'm alone, but I'm not alone. How important is 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:25.960 it to you and like in your messaging in the 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:28.480 book for women of color, for us to like find 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:30.240 support among one another. 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:33.639 I think it's game changing. It's probably the most important 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.560 thing we can do. And my own story is similar 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:39.240 to yours. So I spent three years knowing it was 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.400 time to leave, and we can come back to all 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:43.480 the reasons why, but I knew it was time to leave, 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:45.720 and I struggled as a first. I struggled because I 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.080 felt like if I left, it would represent not only 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.640 potentially badly on me and my own challenges, and mine 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.320 wore health related, so it wasn't even you know, a 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.240 capability issue in that sort of sense. But I also 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:58.040 worry that it would reflect on other women of color 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.600 coming after me. So I sat in my knowing I 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.320 wanted to leave, and probably being unhappy for a little 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.280 while just for that reason. And so in an attempt 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:08.320 to figure out what to do, I started meeting with 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:10.320 women of color because to your point, there weren't a 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.840 lot in my company. There were hardly any ahead of me, 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:15.880 and so it started one on one eventually turned into 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.279 two person, three person dinners, and then at one point 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.120 my now business partner who was then my coach, and 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.479 I did about a dozen dinners across the country where 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.640 I met three hundred senior women of color, and that 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:29.280 was game changing. That was liberation because we would get 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.440 in these rooms, I thought for an hour or two 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.440 to network, and I'm not exaggerating, six seven, eight hours 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.120 later we were still you know, drinking wine, having chocolate, 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:40.760 talking because we had all the same stories, but we 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.080 had never met each other to talk about it, and 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.400 so many of us, to your point, were isolated. So 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:48.320 for me, that gave me almost permission to go back 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:50.919 and leave my role and also started, you know, the 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.040 book and the work that I do now. But I 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:54.960 think a lot of us are isolated, and we think 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.400 so much of what's happening to us is us right, 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:01.480 or it's our you know, deficiencies are insecurities, and what 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:03.880 we realize from meeting others is it's not us, it's 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.559 the system. And that I cannot tell you a freeing 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:08.240 that is so so important. 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.000 Yeah, I'm wondering why I wasn't invited to any of 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:12.719 these dinners. I'm incredibly jealous. 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.040 You will be next time. Yes, it was, honestly, it's 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:17.640 a great quat. It was. It was word of mouth. 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.040 It was like friends of friends are through LinkedIn, and 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:21.920 that's the other challenge, by the way, like there isn't 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.039 a roster, it's sometimes hard to find each other and 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.719 so and we're also taught not to reach out to people, 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:30.599 right that if you don't know people, everyone's busy and 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:32.400 you don't want to bother them. And I think the 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:34.720 last few years have shown us we need community and 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:36.640 it's okay to reach out to people you don't know 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:38.200 and to make new friends. 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.839 Yeah, a thousand percent. And I'm I'm the work that 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.160 you do with information, it was sort of it was 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:45.840 also I feel like for you or maybe I'm just 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:47.960 speaking for myself, but it was an answer to that 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.320 lack that need, you know, can I build what I feel? 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:53.400 I feel like I could. I would have loved to 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.360 have had while I was coming out moving through the things. 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:58.760 I mean, Information was really kind of an outgrowth of 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:00.919 the dinners where we would end the you know again, 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.320 literally in the parking lots at three o'clock in the morning, 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:04.960 and then women would say, this is the best thing 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:08.039 I've been to, Like, when are you doing this again? Obviously, 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:10.240 the business model and the whole plan had, you know, 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.520 turned on its head with COVID and George Floyd's murder 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:15.680 really changed how we talk about race at work and 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:17.360 all of that together, so we to rethink how that 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:19.120 would what that would look like is at one point 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.240 we thought it might be just dinners, right, like some 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.000 sort of sequence of coming back, and it's all gone 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.479 virtual online and it's a very different format. But it 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:28.599 came out of that need to want to continue the 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.560 discussions and really bring together women so that we're not 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:33.839 we're not struggling in the ways that we're struggling and 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.640 isolated and facing a lot of the trauma I think 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:38.760 on our own, which we shouldn't have to do. But 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:40.719 we haven't had space to talk about that before. 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.240 Yeah. Absolutely, And I mean obviously you work with companies. 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.440 I mean that's part of your work is helping companies 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:48.719 figure out how to do how to make how to 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.279 change those systems that can make it so difficult for 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.560 women like us to thrive, and at the same time, 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:58.640 I feel like it's also for me. It's about showing 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:02.719 that sometimes companies, like we put too much expectation on 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:04.719 them to get it right in a way like, of 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.560 course they have the resources, and you want women to succeed, 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:09.920 so here's what you should do. But I love about 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:12.800 information and just your own work. Was what if we 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.800 create our own spaces and we find our own places 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:17.920 where we can feel safe. For me, it was also 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:20.320 really liberating to start doing that on my own, and 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:22.960 I don't think if I hadn't. Just like you, sometimes 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:24.640 you just can't wait for them to get it right 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:28.080 because some of us, like time is not necessarily something 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.760 that we have an abundance, especially when you're when you're 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:32.800 trying to move through your career. I feel like it's 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.360 going to take companies years and years and years. If 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.880 they they just started in twenty twenty, whoo, it's going 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.239 to take them on a long time to start getting 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:42.640 it right. So in the meantime, it's about like, how 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:46.160 can I find resources like information or my own you know, 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:48.800 coaching program or whatever program may be close to you, 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:52.160 But where can you find community, like your community of 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.720 peers to lean on for support so that you don't 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:59.200 get burnt out, exhausted and leave. 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.720 I also think companies sometimes, you know, I feel like 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:04.400 we're in a moment, and I don't think all companies 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:05.800 are the same, right there is a lot There are 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.080 a lot of companies in you and I've talked about 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.160 this doing performative work where they're not even really able 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.280 to do the hard lifting is they don't even know 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:15.880 what that is. But I think other companies want to 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:18.760 do better. But I mean same sort of situation. They 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:20.600 don't really know what to do, and so I think 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.240 that's why a lot of us are solving it outside 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:25.280 of the structures and the systems, because we know for 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:27.040 them to catch up. I'm not saying they can't ever 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.200 do it, but it's not a safe space right now. 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:30.920 They don't know how to hold the space. They don't 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.400 know how to have the conversations. And in some cases 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.199 what we're talking about is directly in the face of 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.640 the things that they worry about, right like we are 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.800 talking about things like racism. And from a legal perspective, 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:44.120 a lot of the structures and a lot of the 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:46.360 system has been set up to protect the company and 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:49.440 so it's just they don't know what to do. So 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:51.360 we need a lot of the processes and a lot 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:53.640 of the culture to change. And so I think while 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:55.559 we're waiting, folks like you and I are trying to 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.160 figure it out and trying to provide the support and 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:00.760 hopefully the companies will catch up. Case they don't, we 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:02.719 also have resources and ways of doing it. 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:04.880 Can we talk a little bit about, like if you 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.640 could pinpoint I don't know one or two examples of 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:13.200 processes at companies that are creating these situations where more 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.400 women of color are not reaching the upper echelons at 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.319 their companies, Like what would some of those be that 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.720 you would love to see just dismantled? 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:23.079 Yeah, you know, the biggest one is just the reporting 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.720 processes for racism. So I have a you know, I 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:27.720 talked to a number of women and this is the 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.360 most shocking part. So I talked to a number of 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.000 different women on all levels, but the most senior women 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:35.520 kept telling me the same stories over and over again. 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:37.160 So a lot of them felt like they had been 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.280 taught I will, you know, maybe compromise on certain things. 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:42.839 I will maybe show up a certain way, I will 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.120 maybe conform. But once I get to the seat, I'll 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.080 do it differently. And the challenge was a lot of 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:48.960 those women, once they got to the senior seats, they 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.080 found less ability to do it their way because there 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.240 was more pressure to kind of get along and toe 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:55.600 the line and do what the company was expecting them 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:57.640 to do. And the place where I found it the 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:01.280 most shocking was literally in reporting races. So there's about 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:04.240 eight women that I spoke with again VP level and above, 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.280 who told me they ended up leaving their industries, leaving 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:11.200 their companies because they reported a case of incident of racism, 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:13.800 whether it was them or you know, someone they witnessed, 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:16.880 and the company didn't appreciate them doing that, even though 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.080 they for all of the protocols, even though they followed 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:21.640 the rules, because a company all of a sudden felt 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:24.240 like they were liable right or they were you know, 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:27.320 legally could be held responsible. So it was almost as 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:29.040 if the woman who was trying to tell her truth 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.920 and improved the culture all of a sudden became kind 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.800 of the lightning rod or the problem, and it was 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:37.560 story after story after story. So I think, you know, 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.000 at the highest level, at the simplest level, I think 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.960 we need new processes and new ways we report racism. 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:45.440 The reporting doesn't work. And also the people sitting in 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:47.760 the seats taking in the stories, what I found is 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:50.040 a lot of them are white leaders, and they don't 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:52.640 necessarily understand racism. So there's a lot of back and 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:54.280 forth with that. It's not that bad, and I don't 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.760 really know what you're talking about. And so sometimes in 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.640 those cases, what I'm hearing is we need outside folks 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.079 to do that work. We need outside representatives, we need 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:05.400 outside investigators until companies can kind of catch up, put 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:07.360 the right people in the seats and understand what to do. 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.559 So it's not a legal liable issue, it's a different 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:11.480 sort of conversation. 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.520 Yeah, it really doesn't feel safe to go to HR 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:17.200 anymore at all. It hasn't for a long time. There's 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.560 this lack of trust. And if companies think, okay, twenty 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:22.480 twenty happened, and you have a bunch of town halls 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.640 or group webinars or group zooms where you kind of 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.120 let you just like color, people of color, tell us 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.800 how you're feeling. If you've got you know, senior leaders 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:33.160 who are attending those calls, and for half an hour 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.800 listening to people, and then oh, what doesn't seem that 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:37.840 bad people here seem to you know, but they don't 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.480 trust you enough to actually tell the truth in that 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.560 half hour zoom session. The trust isn't there. And I 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:45.559 think that you've touched on that, you know, in a 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.560 way that I'm just like, oh, that makes sense. You 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:50.719 know what if we take that reporting structure outside of 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:52.920 the company and we say you don't have to trust 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:55.720 your manager or HR to handle your complaint, We're gonna 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.520 give it to this third party, and then maybe it's 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.000 even anonymized in some way, I don't know, but make 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.800 us feel safer putting our next out there, because it's 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.920 it's not a lot of upside, as you as you've 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:10.880 seen in your work, not a lot of upside being 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.880 the squeaky wheel sometimes. And you may think when you 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:16.599 get to a more senior level, like you said, it 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:20.440 gets easier, like your voice has more weight. But I'm 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:22.199 trying to think back now. Once I got to like 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.320 the senior director level and I was on track to 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:28.360 become a VP, the expectation immediately. I remember when I 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.400 was I asked my manager at the time, my boss's boss, like, 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:32.960 so I want to become a VP. What's what do 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:34.760 I what do I gotta do? Tell me how it works? 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.200 And one of the you know, one of the I 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.480 forget how many parts of the plan to get me 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.439 on the VP track, but one of them was demonstrating 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.920 that I could work with the other department heads and 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:50.040 creating projects and one by one it was a white 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.720 dude after a white dude, and learning how to deal 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:58.400 with those personalities and and and work in those rooms 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.200 and to feel like in order for me to get ahead, 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:05.240 they had to endorse me. You know, it made it 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:10.120 even more challenging, like this is not my target audience, 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.440 you know what I mean. And I had found my 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.000 safe space, and I had and I had gotten very 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.160 far in in my corner of the company. But when 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:22.959 I had to start reaching outward to those other department heads, 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.319 it was it was then when I was like feeling 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:30.080 that sense of do I belong here? Do I want 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:32.120 to be here? Is this really where I want? You 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.439 know what I mean? And then we get to the 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:36.960 feelings of guilt, like you said, when you are the 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:39.400 only one and it's time and you realize it's time 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:41.640 for you to move on. So can you talk about 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.480 that when we realize it's no longer where we want 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.160 to be, how do you what kind of advice do 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.920 you have for women who are thinking, well, shoot, if 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.640 it's not me, who's going to be here to champion? 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:54.679 You know? 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:56.680 Women of color here represent us. 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.160 I think the most surprising thing I found in all 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.000 the women and I can continue to work with is 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.160 our sense of responsibility. And it's deep, and it's there 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:06.719 for women who even may think it's not there. And 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.599 responsibility to our communities, to our families. 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:09.800 You know. 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.440 I interviewed a lot of immigrant women, for example, and 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:14.320 I mean, my parents are immigrants to this country, and 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:16.640 the story of sacrifice right and how much my parents 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:19.760 gave up was like a constant topic of conversation. So 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:22.000 that sense of responsibility is different for different groups, but 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.360 it's really ingrained, I think for a lot of the 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:26.920 women of color I interviewed, and so a lot of 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.840 them will realize, I think somewhat, you know, halfway through, 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.000 let's just call it halfway through, that this is maybe 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.440 not a culture that I can thrive in, This is 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.040 not maybe working for me, But I got to continue pushing, 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:39.560 and a lot of women of color, I think struggle 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.960 because we've one been told to be grateful for the opportunity, 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:45.640 and so we're confused. I think, to your point, we 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.040 feel guilty. I think a lot of us feel like 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.320 our work is getting to the seat and opening it 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:52.520 up for others, and you know, what does that really 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.240 mean for us personally? And a lot of us have 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:57.400 been taught to sacrifice, and so I think it's all 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:00.520 really difficult. For me, it came down to I had 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.440 known for a while that the lifestyle that I had 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.240 was not conducive for me. So I started to get sick. 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.520 That's kind of a very long story short, and I 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.760 don't mean, you know, small small things. I mean every 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:12.560 week it was like a new symptom, to the point 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:15.520 that I was probably dealing with twenty or thirty symptoms. 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:17.400 I'd been to fourteen doctors. I tell a story in 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:19.880 the book. I've been to fourteen doctors, and they all 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:21.960 agreed there was something wrong with me. You know, some 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.440 of them related it to age. I turned forty, like 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.520 maybe that's what had happened, but they agreed something was happening. 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:30.440 And I was at my fourteenth doctor and she looked 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:32.360 at me and she said, we can keep running tests, 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:34.160 or I can tell you what I think you already know. 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:36.200 And when I tell the story, I always say like 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:38.280 I had brought my suitcase to the appointment because I 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:40.240 was a doctor. I saw when I traveled, because I 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:42.080 lived on a plane, I did three cities a week 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:44.360 in the nature of the job that I had. And 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.240 so she's already judging me, like, why is this woman 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.880 bringing her suitcase to a doctor's appointment? And she said, 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:51.440 I really think your job is making you ill. I 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:53.280 think your job is killing you. I think you need 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:57.160 to really do something else. My fourteenth doctor, and you know, 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.360 doctor I saw when I traveled, And she asked me 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:01.640 three life change of questions that were profound, I think 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:03.800 for anybody, but I think especially for women of color. 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:05.440 She said, what would you do if you didn't do 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.520 a big job like this? Her second question to me 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:09.840 was do you feel like you have to do a 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.880 big job to be worthy? And her third question was 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.640 don't you see your worthy being you? And I think 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:18.360 part of my struggle was I'd been taught that, you know, 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:20.840 some of my worthiness, a lot of my worthiness came 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:25.280 from performing, came from doing more, came from showing up 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.520 came from succeeding. That was a lot of what I 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.560 had been taught, I think, especially from my immigrant family, 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:34.320 and it was a real struggle to walk away from 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:36.760 that life, to walk away from the security of what 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:39.160 that brought, and to really question. This is something I 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.920 still want to do. And the most shocking thing of 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:43.760 all of the women I spoke with is I think 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:45.640 a lot of us are sick in ways that we 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:47.680 don't talk about. So two out of three women of 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:50.400 color I interviewed were sick with these what I call 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:56.720 mysterious symptoms, right, so stomach pains, skin rashes, headaches, fertility issues, 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.080 adrena fatigue, and I have a long list, but they 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.040 are these things that I I think are these growing symptoms, 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.400 but things that doctors can dismiss and tell us they're 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:06.480 not that big a deal, but they really affect us 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:08.640 and a lot of what I believe, and I talk 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:10.240 to a number of doctors, I think it comes from 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.520 not being seen and heard in systems, from not really 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:15.639 feeling supported, and to your point, from adapting and fitting 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:17.880 in and staying longer than we should. So I think 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.560 these are really important conversations we have to have, like 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:22.200 when do you stay, and when do you go? When 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.159 is a culture not working for you? And when is 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:27.000 it causing more trauma or harm? And when is it 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.000 okay to give yourself permission to walk away? I think 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:31.240 those are real big questions for women of color. 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:36.080 Ah God, I can't imagine how terrifying that must be 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:44.320 to feel like all these the physical manifestation of that isolation, 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.520 and you know the fact that our work really can 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:51.080 make us ill. I remember my mom. My mom had suffered, 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:53.000