1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: Hey, Hey, via fam, it is Mandra back with another 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: episode of Brown Ambition. Today's guest, y'all, is incredibly special. 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: I had the opportunity to speak with Today's guests last week, 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: and I knew from that conversation that I was like, 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: you have to be on Brown Ambition. And this is 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: how quickly I made it happen. Okay, within one week, 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: I have her on the show, and I am so 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: excited to bring today's guest to you. Her name is 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: Deepa Pershathaman. She is I don't even You're gonna have 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: to bear with me because this woman's accolades and titles 11 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: are just they go on for miles and miles and miles. 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: And I'm going to fight my own imposter syndrome and 13 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: explain a little bit to y'all about who my new 14 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: friend Depa is. Okay, Not only is Depa the co 15 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: founder of her own company called Information, which provides brave 16 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: safe space for professional women of color to advance in 17 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: their careers, she is also a women in Public Policy 18 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,279 Speaker 1: program leader in practice at Harvard Kennedy's School. You may 19 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: have heard of it. Prior to that, Deepa spent more 20 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: than twenty years in Corporate America at Deloitte, and she 21 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: was the first Indian American woman to make partner in 22 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: the company's history history and with Deepa's deep knowledge of 23 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: what it means to be one of the first, one 24 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: of the few, one of the only, she wrote a 25 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: beautiful book which you guys have to go pick up. 26 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: It just was released earlier this month. Go find her 27 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: new book. It's called The First, the Only, How Women 28 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: of Color can Redefine power in Corporate America. Like I said, 29 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: it's out right now. Go to the show notes, you 30 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 1: can download your copy, you can pick up the book. 31 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: We have to support. I'm telling you, when women of 32 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: color publish books, I think it is all of our 33 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: duty to go and purchase them so that other women 34 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: of color can get book deals. Right. So, in this book, 35 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: which is so unique, Deepa chronicles over five hundred interviews 36 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: with women of color, women who were not just people 37 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: of color in corporate America, but their own version of 38 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: the first, the fuse or the onlies in corporate America 39 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: and Dipa in her book talks about why it's finally 40 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: time to stop glamorizing women of color leaders in corporate America. 41 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: Thank you for that, and how we can start dismantling 42 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: those outdated power structures so that only a few of 43 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: us seem to be able to make it, and how 44 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: that few can become many instead. So thank you so 45 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: much for letting me brag on you, DIPA. 46 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: I know, thank you for having me. 47 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: Comfortable to listen to your own bio. But I was like, 48 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: you're going to listen to it? Oh, but you did it, 49 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: you survived. Thank you so much for joining Brown Ambition. 50 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,399 Speaker 2: I'm so excited to chat with you. I just feel 51 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 2: like we have so many things to talk about right now, so. 52 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: Let's jump into it. First. Few only different. I mean, 53 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: I think you and I intimately as well as our audience, 54 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: knows what that is like, knows how isolating it can feel. 55 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: But I love and you know where I think you 56 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: and I have in common. One of the many things 57 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: is that we were able to thrive in corporate America 58 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: in spite of being one of the few. You know, 59 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: first only difference in our world, And I know, I 60 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: feel like what was so isolating was that within your 61 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: company there weren't many people who look like you to 62 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: turn to. But as soon as I sort of opened 63 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: up to meeting the first few only difference outside of 64 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: my company, and you know, started to open myself up 65 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: to building those relationships. I was like, Okay, it feels 66 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: like I'm alone, but I'm not alone. How important is 67 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: it to you and like in your messaging in the 68 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: book for women of color, for us to like find 69 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: support among one another. 70 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 2: I think it's game changing. It's probably the most important 71 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 2: thing we can do. And my own story is similar 72 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: to yours. So I spent three years knowing it was 73 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 2: time to leave, and we can come back to all 74 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: the reasons why, but I knew it was time to leave, 75 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: and I struggled as a first. I struggled because I 76 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: felt like if I left, it would represent not only 77 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 2: potentially badly on me and my own challenges, and mine 78 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: wore health related, so it wasn't even you know, a 79 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 2: capability issue in that sort of sense. But I also 80 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: worry that it would reflect on other women of color 81 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: coming after me. So I sat in my knowing I 82 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 2: wanted to leave, and probably being unhappy for a little 83 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: while just for that reason. And so in an attempt 84 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: to figure out what to do, I started meeting with 85 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 2: women of color because to your point, there weren't a 86 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: lot in my company. There were hardly any ahead of me, 87 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: and so it started one on one eventually turned into 88 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 2: two person, three person dinners, and then at one point 89 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: my now business partner who was then my coach, and 90 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 2: I did about a dozen dinners across the country where 91 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: I met three hundred senior women of color, and that 92 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 2: was game changing. That was liberation because we would get 93 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: in these rooms, I thought for an hour or two 94 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: to network, and I'm not exaggerating, six seven, eight hours 95 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: later we were still you know, drinking wine, having chocolate, 96 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 2: talking because we had all the same stories, but we 97 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: had never met each other to talk about it, and 98 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 2: so many of us, to your point, were isolated. So 99 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: for me, that gave me almost permission to go back 100 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 2: and leave my role and also started, you know, the 101 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 2: book and the work that I do now. But I 102 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: think a lot of us are isolated, and we think 103 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: so much of what's happening to us is us right, 104 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 2: or it's our you know, deficiencies are insecurities, and what 105 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: we realize from meeting others is it's not us, it's 106 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,559 Speaker 2: the system. And that I cannot tell you a freeing 107 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 2: that is so so important. 108 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm wondering why I wasn't invited to any of 109 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: these dinners. I'm incredibly jealous. 110 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 2: You will be next time. Yes, it was, honestly, it's 111 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 2: a great quat. It was. It was word of mouth. 112 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 2: It was like friends of friends are through LinkedIn, and 113 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 2: that's the other challenge, by the way, like there isn't 114 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 2: a roster, it's sometimes hard to find each other and 115 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 2: so and we're also taught not to reach out to people, 116 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 2: right that if you don't know people, everyone's busy and 117 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: you don't want to bother them. And I think the 118 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 2: last few years have shown us we need community and 119 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: it's okay to reach out to people you don't know 120 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 2: and to make new friends. 121 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, a thousand percent. And I'm I'm the work that 122 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: you do with information, it was sort of it was 123 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: also I feel like for you or maybe I'm just 124 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: speaking for myself, but it was an answer to that 125 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: lack that need, you know, can I build what I feel? 126 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: I feel like I could. I would have loved to 127 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: have had while I was coming out moving through the things. 128 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 2: I mean, Information was really kind of an outgrowth of 129 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 2: the dinners where we would end the you know again, 130 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: literally in the parking lots at three o'clock in the morning, 131 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: and then women would say, this is the best thing 132 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 2: I've been to, Like, when are you doing this again? Obviously, 133 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 2: the business model and the whole plan had, you know, 134 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: turned on its head with COVID and George Floyd's murder 135 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: really changed how we talk about race at work and 136 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 2: all of that together, so we to rethink how that 137 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: would what that would look like is at one point 138 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 2: we thought it might be just dinners, right, like some 139 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: sort of sequence of coming back, and it's all gone 140 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 2: virtual online and it's a very different format. But it 141 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 2: came out of that need to want to continue the 142 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 2: discussions and really bring together women so that we're not 143 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 2: we're not struggling in the ways that we're struggling and 144 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 2: isolated and facing a lot of the trauma I think 145 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: on our own, which we shouldn't have to do. But 146 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 2: we haven't had space to talk about that before. 147 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And I mean obviously you work with companies. 148 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: I mean that's part of your work is helping companies 149 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: figure out how to do how to make how to 150 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: change those systems that can make it so difficult for 151 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: women like us to thrive, and at the same time, 152 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: I feel like it's also for me. It's about showing 153 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: that sometimes companies, like we put too much expectation on 154 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: them to get it right in a way like, of 155 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: course they have the resources, and you want women to succeed, 156 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: so here's what you should do. But I love about 157 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: information and just your own work. Was what if we 158 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: create our own spaces and we find our own places 159 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: where we can feel safe. For me, it was also 160 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: really liberating to start doing that on my own, and 161 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: I don't think if I hadn't. Just like you, sometimes 162 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: you just can't wait for them to get it right 163 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: because some of us, like time is not necessarily something 164 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: that we have an abundance, especially when you're when you're 165 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: trying to move through your career. I feel like it's 166 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: going to take companies years and years and years. If 167 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: they they just started in twenty twenty, whoo, it's going 168 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,239 Speaker 1: to take them on a long time to start getting 169 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: it right. So in the meantime, it's about like, how 170 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: can I find resources like information or my own you know, 171 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: coaching program or whatever program may be close to you, 172 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: But where can you find community, like your community of 173 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: peers to lean on for support so that you don't 174 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: get burnt out, exhausted and leave. 175 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: I also think companies sometimes, you know, I feel like 176 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: we're in a moment, and I don't think all companies 177 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: are the same, right there is a lot There are 178 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: a lot of companies in you and I've talked about 179 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: this doing performative work where they're not even really able 180 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 2: to do the hard lifting is they don't even know 181 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 2: what that is. But I think other companies want to 182 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 2: do better. But I mean same sort of situation. They 183 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: don't really know what to do, and so I think 184 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: that's why a lot of us are solving it outside 185 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: of the structures and the systems, because we know for 186 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 2: them to catch up. I'm not saying they can't ever 187 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 2: do it, but it's not a safe space right now. 188 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 2: They don't know how to hold the space. They don't 189 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 2: know how to have the conversations. And in some cases 190 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 2: what we're talking about is directly in the face of 191 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 2: the things that they worry about, right like we are 192 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 2: talking about things like racism. And from a legal perspective, 193 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: a lot of the structures and a lot of the 194 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: system has been set up to protect the company and 195 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 2: so it's just they don't know what to do. So 196 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: we need a lot of the processes and a lot 197 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 2: of the culture to change. And so I think while 198 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 2: we're waiting, folks like you and I are trying to 199 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: figure it out and trying to provide the support and 200 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 2: hopefully the companies will catch up. Case they don't, we 201 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,719 Speaker 2: also have resources and ways of doing it. 202 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: Can we talk a little bit about, like if you 203 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: could pinpoint I don't know one or two examples of 204 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: processes at companies that are creating these situations where more 205 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: women of color are not reaching the upper echelons at 206 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: their companies, Like what would some of those be that 207 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: you would love to see just dismantled? 208 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the biggest one is just the reporting 209 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 2: processes for racism. So I have a you know, I 210 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 2: talked to a number of women and this is the 211 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: most shocking part. So I talked to a number of 212 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: different women on all levels, but the most senior women 213 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 2: kept telling me the same stories over and over again. 214 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: So a lot of them felt like they had been 215 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 2: taught I will, you know, maybe compromise on certain things. 216 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 2: I will maybe show up a certain way, I will 217 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 2: maybe conform. But once I get to the seat, I'll 218 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 2: do it differently. And the challenge was a lot of 219 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: those women, once they got to the senior seats, they 220 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 2: found less ability to do it their way because there 221 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: was more pressure to kind of get along and toe 222 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 2: the line and do what the company was expecting them 223 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 2: to do. And the place where I found it the 224 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: most shocking was literally in reporting races. So there's about 225 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: eight women that I spoke with again VP level and above, 226 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 2: who told me they ended up leaving their industries, leaving 227 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 2: their companies because they reported a case of incident of racism, 228 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: whether it was them or you know, someone they witnessed, 229 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 2: and the company didn't appreciate them doing that, even though 230 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: they for all of the protocols, even though they followed 231 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: the rules, because a company all of a sudden felt 232 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 2: like they were liable right or they were you know, 233 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 2: legally could be held responsible. So it was almost as 234 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 2: if the woman who was trying to tell her truth 235 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 2: and improved the culture all of a sudden became kind 236 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: of the lightning rod or the problem, and it was 237 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 2: story after story after story. So I think, you know, 238 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: at the highest level, at the simplest level, I think 239 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: we need new processes and new ways we report racism. 240 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 2: The reporting doesn't work. And also the people sitting in 241 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 2: the seats taking in the stories, what I found is 242 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: a lot of them are white leaders, and they don't 243 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: necessarily understand racism. So there's a lot of back and 244 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 2: forth with that. It's not that bad, and I don't 245 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: really know what you're talking about. And so sometimes in 246 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 2: those cases, what I'm hearing is we need outside folks 247 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 2: to do that work. We need outside representatives, we need 248 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: outside investigators until companies can kind of catch up, put 249 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: the right people in the seats and understand what to do. 250 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 2: So it's not a legal liable issue, it's a different 251 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: sort of conversation. 252 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it really doesn't feel safe to go to HR 253 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: anymore at all. It hasn't for a long time. There's 254 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: this lack of trust. And if companies think, okay, twenty 255 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: twenty happened, and you have a bunch of town halls 256 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: or group webinars or group zooms where you kind of 257 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: let you just like color, people of color, tell us 258 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: how you're feeling. If you've got you know, senior leaders 259 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: who are attending those calls, and for half an hour 260 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: listening to people, and then oh, what doesn't seem that 261 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: bad people here seem to you know, but they don't 262 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: trust you enough to actually tell the truth in that 263 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: half hour zoom session. The trust isn't there. And I 264 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: think that you've touched on that, you know, in a 265 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: way that I'm just like, oh, that makes sense. You 266 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 1: know what if we take that reporting structure outside of 267 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: the company and we say you don't have to trust 268 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: your manager or HR to handle your complaint, We're gonna 269 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: give it to this third party, and then maybe it's 270 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: even anonymized in some way, I don't know, but make 271 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: us feel safer putting our next out there, because it's 272 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: it's not a lot of upside, as you as you've 273 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: seen in your work, not a lot of upside being 274 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: the squeaky wheel sometimes. And you may think when you 275 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,599 Speaker 1: get to a more senior level, like you said, it 276 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: gets easier, like your voice has more weight. But I'm 277 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 1: trying to think back now. Once I got to like 278 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: the senior director level and I was on track to 279 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: become a VP, the expectation immediately. I remember when I 280 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: was I asked my manager at the time, my boss's boss, like, 281 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: so I want to become a VP. What's what do 282 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: I what do I gotta do? Tell me how it works? 283 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: And one of the you know, one of the I 284 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: forget how many parts of the plan to get me 285 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 1: on the VP track, but one of them was demonstrating 286 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: that I could work with the other department heads and 287 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: creating projects and one by one it was a white 288 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: dude after a white dude, and learning how to deal 289 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: with those personalities and and and work in those rooms 290 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: and to feel like in order for me to get ahead, 291 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: they had to endorse me. You know, it made it 292 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: even more challenging, like this is not my target audience, 293 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And I had found my 294 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: safe space, and I had and I had gotten very 295 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: far in in my corner of the company. But when 296 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 1: I had to start reaching outward to those other department heads, 297 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 1: it was it was then when I was like feeling 298 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: that sense of do I belong here? Do I want 299 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: to be here? Is this really where I want? You 300 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: know what I mean? And then we get to the 301 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: feelings of guilt, like you said, when you are the 302 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: only one and it's time and you realize it's time 303 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: for you to move on. So can you talk about 304 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: that when we realize it's no longer where we want 305 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: to be, how do you what kind of advice do 306 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: you have for women who are thinking, well, shoot, if 307 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: it's not me, who's going to be here to champion? 308 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 2: You know? 309 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: Women of color here represent us. 310 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 2: I think the most surprising thing I found in all 311 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: the women and I can continue to work with is 312 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: our sense of responsibility. And it's deep, and it's there 313 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,719 Speaker 2: for women who even may think it's not there. And 314 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,599 Speaker 2: responsibility to our communities, to our families. 315 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: You know. 316 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 2: I interviewed a lot of immigrant women, for example, and 317 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 2: I mean, my parents are immigrants to this country, and 318 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 2: the story of sacrifice right and how much my parents 319 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 2: gave up was like a constant topic of conversation. So 320 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 2: that sense of responsibility is different for different groups, but 321 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 2: it's really ingrained, I think for a lot of the 322 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: women of color I interviewed, and so a lot of 323 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 2: them will realize, I think somewhat, you know, halfway through, 324 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: let's just call it halfway through, that this is maybe 325 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: not a culture that I can thrive in, This is 326 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 2: not maybe working for me, But I got to continue pushing, 327 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: and a lot of women of color, I think struggle 328 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: because we've one been told to be grateful for the opportunity, 329 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: and so we're confused. I think, to your point, we 330 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: feel guilty. I think a lot of us feel like 331 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: our work is getting to the seat and opening it 332 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 2: up for others, and you know, what does that really 333 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: mean for us personally? And a lot of us have 334 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 2: been taught to sacrifice, and so I think it's all 335 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 2: really difficult. For me, it came down to I had 336 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: known for a while that the lifestyle that I had 337 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 2: was not conducive for me. So I started to get sick. 338 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 2: That's kind of a very long story short, and I 339 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 2: don't mean, you know, small small things. I mean every 340 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: week it was like a new symptom, to the point 341 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 2: that I was probably dealing with twenty or thirty symptoms. 342 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 2: I'd been to fourteen doctors. I tell a story in 343 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: the book. I've been to fourteen doctors, and they all 344 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 2: agreed there was something wrong with me. You know, some 345 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 2: of them related it to age. I turned forty, like 346 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 2: maybe that's what had happened, but they agreed something was happening. 347 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 2: And I was at my fourteenth doctor and she looked 348 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 2: at me and she said, we can keep running tests, 349 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: or I can tell you what I think you already know. 350 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 2: And when I tell the story, I always say like 351 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 2: I had brought my suitcase to the appointment because I 352 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 2: was a doctor. I saw when I traveled, because I 353 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: lived on a plane, I did three cities a week 354 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: in the nature of the job that I had. And 355 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: so she's already judging me, like, why is this woman 356 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 2: bringing her suitcase to a doctor's appointment? And she said, 357 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: I really think your job is making you ill. I 358 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 2: think your job is killing you. I think you need 359 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: to really do something else. My fourteenth doctor, and you know, 360 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 2: doctor I saw when I traveled, And she asked me 361 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 2: three life change of questions that were profound, I think 362 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: for anybody, but I think especially for women of color. 363 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 2: She said, what would you do if you didn't do 364 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 2: a big job like this? Her second question to me 365 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 2: was do you feel like you have to do a 366 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 2: big job to be worthy? And her third question was 367 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: don't you see your worthy being you? And I think 368 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 2: part of my struggle was I'd been taught that, you know, 369 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 2: some of my worthiness, a lot of my worthiness came 370 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 2: from performing, came from doing more, came from showing up 371 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: came from succeeding. That was a lot of what I 372 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: had been taught, I think, especially from my immigrant family, 373 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: and it was a real struggle to walk away from 374 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 2: that life, to walk away from the security of what 375 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 2: that brought, and to really question. This is something I 376 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 2: still want to do. And the most shocking thing of 377 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: all of the women I spoke with is I think 378 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 2: a lot of us are sick in ways that we 379 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 2: don't talk about. So two out of three women of 380 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: color I interviewed were sick with these what I call 381 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 2: mysterious symptoms, right, so stomach pains, skin rashes, headaches, fertility issues, 382 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: adrena fatigue, and I have a long list, but they 383 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: are these things that I I think are these growing symptoms, 384 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 2: but things that doctors can dismiss and tell us they're 385 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 2: not that big a deal, but they really affect us 386 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 2: and a lot of what I believe, and I talk 387 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 2: to a number of doctors, I think it comes from 388 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 2: not being seen and heard in systems, from not really 389 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 2: feeling supported, and to your point, from adapting and fitting 390 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 2: in and staying longer than we should. So I think 391 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 2: these are really important conversations we have to have, like 392 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 2: when do you stay, and when do you go? When 393 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 2: is a culture not working for you? And when is 394 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: it causing more trauma or harm? And when is it 395 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 2: okay to give yourself permission to walk away? I think 396 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 2: those are real big questions for women of color. 397 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: Ah God, I can't imagine how terrifying that must be 398 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: to feel like all these the physical manifestation of that isolation, 399 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: and you know the fact that our work really can 400 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: make us ill. I remember my mom. My mom had suffered, 401 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: you know, she was a single mom for a long 402 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: time and it was always very stressful. She you know, 403 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: the end of her career came from like an illness 404 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: that was really tied to mental strain, and it was like, okay, 405 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: twenty years of you grinding out to make things work, 406 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: and your body has revolted. So it's not even a 407 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: matter of sometimes just it's about our physical safety too 408 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: as much as our mental safety. To recognize that. All right, 409 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: I am loving this conversation with our incredible guests, Deep 410 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: Up per shot them on. I'm going to take a 411 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: quick break. I will be right back with Deeper And 412 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: by the way, do not forget to check out her website. 413 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: It's Deepaperu dot com. Check the show notes for a 414 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: link to get her book and find out all about information. 415 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: We will be right back all right, ba fam, I 416 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: am back with my guests today. Deep up, heer shot 417 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 1: them on. Here we go, Let's get back to our conversation. 418 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: I feel like one of the things that has to 419 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: happen too to make you feel safe, excuse me, and 420 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: a decision to leave is even to recognize I mean 421 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: leaving for you as entrepreneurship and writing a book and 422 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: all of that, and hopefully a really long vacation hopefully 423 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: took some time off the rest. 424 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I said eight months in bebt, so my 425 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: symptoms actually grew to a point where I couldn't listen anymore. 426 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 2: It sounds like similar to your mother, where my body 427 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 2: was just screaming like get out, it's time because I 428 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 2: wasn't listening right, It was my entire identity And it 429 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 2: took me a long time to leave because of that 430 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 2: sense of responsibility. But yeah, I did take a break. 431 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: And it was hard for me as her daughter to 432 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: even see her like that, and even for my own mind, 433 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: like mom is not okay, but she's always okay. We 434 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: always just pushed through it. Was really challenging. That's like 435 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: a whole other topic for another show. Yes it is, 436 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,959 Speaker 1: but absolutely, but even to hear stories from women who 437 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: are experiencing a joyful work environment, who are thriving, and 438 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: to see that there are opportunities elsewhere. It does not 439 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: have to be this way everywhere, and that there's examples. 440 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: And that's where it comes back to, like getting to 441 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: know other people, other women, especially you know in your industry, 442 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: who are working places and look for the ones who 443 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: are happy and thriving and see how you can get 444 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: there because it may it may not be you, it 445 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: may be the culture that you're in, but you can 446 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: rescue yourself, you know, and get yourself out of it. 447 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: And I feel like, you know, our mutual friend now 448 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: I can call her friend, Rachika Tolshian. She was on 449 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,479 Speaker 1: the show a couple of weeks ago, and she and 450 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: I were talking about how, you know, it is that 451 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: perception that I have to just grin and bear it. 452 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: You know that this is what it's going to be, 453 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: so let's just get used to it. But no, no, 454 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: you can get out and there's other places. It may 455 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: not be entrepreneurship, like it's not for everyone, but like, 456 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: what are the signs you know, if you were going 457 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: back into corporate America. Now, I know that you're not 458 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: on that path right now, but if you were, what 459 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: would you be looking for? You know, signs that this 460 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: is a safe space for me. 461 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. One of my pieces of advice is to reach 462 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 2: out to people. I mean, similar to what we did 463 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 2: for the dinners, where we just called called people or 464 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 2: message people on LinkedIn. I think it's okay, and we're 465 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 2: seeing more women of I'm seeing more women of color 466 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 2: do this to just reach out to people at the 467 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 2: company at their level below more senior, and just say 468 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: is this a woman of color friendly place? And people 469 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 2: often ask me like, well, people tell them. I think 470 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 2: now people will you know, like don't come here right now, 471 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 2: or that department is notorious, So ask like ask, you know, 472 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 2: ask your sisters. I think we'll share more. I also 473 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 2: think looking at you know, traditional places like glassdoor and 474 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 2: other places where there reviews and there's more online information 475 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 2: than there has ever been before, and I think that's 476 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 2: okay to ask as well. I think also talking about 477 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: the resources you need to be successful. I mean, if 478 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 2: we're talking about senior women, you could ask for things 479 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 2: like coaches and external support. So negotiate those things as 480 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 2: you kind of land your deal, because if you know, 481 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 2: like a culture, you're going to be one of the 482 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 2: only I think that's an okay thing to say. I need, 483 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: you know, I just want to make sure I'm supported 484 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 2: and I have what I need to succeed. I also 485 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 2: think this is a little bit of you know, when 486 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 2: I first wrote the book, it's funny like the title 487 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 2: wist day or Go, and people tell me you can't 488 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: be telling everyone to go, although two years later maybe 489 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: I can. Right. I think we are a place where 490 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 2: everyone's asking, you know, what do they really want to do? 491 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 2: What's the space that work takes up in our life? 492 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 2: And I think it's okay to say that certain companies 493 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 2: are not conducive or supportive for women of color, just period, 494 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 2: end of sentence. They are not. And so many of 495 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 2: the women of color are going and creating their own 496 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 2: companies that I know, because they're trying to create different 497 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 2: cultures that are friendly for us. And so I also 498 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 2: think that is a real thing. And so it's a 499 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 2: little bit of making sure not only the companies friendly, 500 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 2: but the department and the person you're going to be 501 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 2: working for is also to your point, right you kind 502 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 2: of share this in your own story, like that person 503 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 2: really influences your day to day and how it feels, 504 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: and so asking questions about that person is also something 505 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 2: that can be helpful and insightful and important to do too. 506 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I accidentally want a little baby viral on TikTok 507 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: because I shared a video and it was like three 508 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 1: questions you should ask during an interview, And it was 509 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: meant to be kind of jokey about how companies will 510 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: they'll do things like make Juneteenth a company holiday and 511 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: they'll appoint a head of inclusion of diversity. But if 512 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: you ask them so, how many women of color are 513 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: at the VP level or above? And then things get 514 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: really quiet and awkward, and I started, I really didn't 515 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: start incorporating that into the questions I asked in my 516 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: last year of Corporate America. Who knows? Maybe I'll go 517 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: back who knows? But and I encourage women to ask that, 518 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: and some of the responses, where can you ask that? 519 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: Is this even seen as an okay question? And I'm like, 520 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: you know the fact that we're asking, and if you're 521 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: coming in at at a senior level like that VP 522 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: or above. I mean the fact that you were asking. 523 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: I feel like recruiters should know that. You know, it's 524 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: going to become as important. I feel like to have 525 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: stats to share on how successful diverse employees are. It's 526 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: going to become as important to have those stats as 527 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: it is to have unlimited PTO and free lunch. 528 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 2: I can't really agree. I just did a conversation. You know, 529 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 2: I get called by recruiters all the time, and I 530 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 2: usually pass them to other people because, like you, I 531 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 2: am not looking at the moment. But that was one 532 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 2: of my questions I said before I were for another 533 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 2: woman of color? Can you tell me how many you 534 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 2: know senior women of color? Or can you tell me 535 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 2: these three questions? Right? How many there are? 536 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: You know? 537 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 2: Where does the chief inclusion officer report into? I mean 538 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 2: it sounds like similar questions you ask, like you know 539 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 2: you know? Is what is the entry level? And what 540 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 2: you know? I asked a question about mid level and 541 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 2: the recruiters that I can't answer any of those questions. 542 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:11,719 Speaker 2: Those are good questions. Well, I said, I'm not going 543 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 2: to give you another woman of color's name unless you 544 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 2: can come back to me with those answers. You know 545 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 2: that that could be just maybe you didn't ask. But 546 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: if the company doesn't have that information, then I don't 547 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 2: know that I'm going to refer a friend or a 548 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 2: sister like that makes no sense either. So I think 549 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 2: those are all real things. I think the other part 550 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 2: I want to just say is there's also you know, 551 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: I have a line in the book, and I've really 552 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 2: spent a lot of time. So I spent eight months 553 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: off really figuring out if I could go back, Like 554 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 2: if I was healthy, did I want that to be 555 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: my identity? There's a lot tied into like being a 556 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 2: partner was my entire identity, and I'd sacrificed a lot 557 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 2: to get to that seat. But I realized I probably 558 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 2: if I was going to go back, would do the 559 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 2: job differently. And I think that's also really important to 560 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 2: talk about that. I think there are ways that we 561 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 2: can also perform in roles and to your point, ask 562 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 2: more questions, do more things. I wouldn't probably go back 563 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 2: and do that job and give it as much of 564 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 2: myself as I had. I would have set clearer boundaries. 565 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 2: I would have maybe not conformed on certain behavior where 566 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 2: early on it didn't feel like a big deal. You know. 567 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 2: Maybe again for me, it was a lot of just 568 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 2: personal time and how much I sacrificed, and you know, 569 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 2: how my priorities and how I prioritize things, I might 570 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 2: make bigger boundaries. And I think had I started that early, 571 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 2: it wouldn't have been such a surprise to do it later. 572 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 2: But it is a hard thing to do to just 573 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: show up at a senior level and all of a sudden, 574 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 2: then you're setting boundaries. So I think this is a 575 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: little bit of teaching all of us to do it earlier. 576 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 2: And to your point, if you know early on you 577 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 2: can't do that, then maybe that's not the right place 578 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 2: to go because you know you're being set up for 579 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 2: sacrifice early on. Yeah. 580 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And it's maybe not even a question of and 581 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: this is harder for a recruiter to answer, but okay, 582 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: so if you have a bunch of women of color 583 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: at the BP level above, how many of those women 584 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: are happy? That's not a question you can really get 585 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: from a recruiter. You have to talk to other women. 586 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: And I think, well, I have a couple of thoughts, 587 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: but I feel like even reaching out, if you see 588 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: women of color, you know, thank goodness for LinkedIn even 589 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: just reaching out and saying, hey, I'm actually considering a 590 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: role at your company. I would love to, you know, 591 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,239 Speaker 1: have a chat for fifteen minutes, just ask about your 592 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: experience and try to get some candid insights into how 593 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: women there are doing and are they happy. Because I 594 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: think what I think is beautiful about you know, up 595 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: and coming career women is that we are not as 596 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:21,959 Speaker 1: accepting of that cut throat sacrifice everything, you know, claw 597 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: and scratch away the top lifestyle. We want a softer life. 598 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: We want success and wealth, and we don't want to 599 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: have to sacrifice our mental, physical health, our family, our interests, 600 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: our passions, you know what I mean. And I think 601 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: for those of us who have kind of seen it, 602 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: I mean you certainly too. I mean you look back 603 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: even now and you say for a twenty year career, 604 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: like okay, I would go back and do things differently. 605 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: I would hope for women approaching their career today that 606 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: they could listen to that advice, take it, but not 607 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: think that they have to settle for less, that they 608 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: have to not go for those top positions. It's just 609 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: going for them, but recognizing and putting those boundaries in 610 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: place so that you don't have to sacrifice yourself necessarily 611 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: along the way to get there. 612 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 2: I think a lot of you know what I found. 613 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 2: You know, I talked about personal power. That's what the 614 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 2: book is about. It is all these women who said, 615 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 2: I don't want that kind of power. I want to 616 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: do it differently. But we've not been taught always how 617 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: to do it differently. And some of this is realizing 618 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 2: for ourselves what our boundaries are. What do we need 619 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 2: to be healthy and happy? Like, what is it that 620 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: we want and we need? And we've never, I think, 621 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 2: been given permission to ask those questions of ourselves sometimes 622 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 2: and we haven't. Really we don't know how to do that. 623 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 2: So it's really I think, in some cases, before you 624 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 2: go into your next job, before you go into your 625 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 2: next thing, sitting down and making a list like what 626 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: made you happy in your last job, what don't you want? 627 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 2: What do you want more of? What is truly going 628 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 2: to make you thrive? And then you know, finding ways 629 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 2: to ask those questions in a really different way during 630 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 2: the interview. But this is so much of I think 631 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 2: us knowing what we need and want and then finding 632 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,239 Speaker 2: ways to make sure we get what we need and 633 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 2: want and then it's okay to need and want things. 634 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 2: I mean, mean, that's really where we have to start, 635 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 2: because I think a lot of the women that I interviewed, 636 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 2: we're not taught that, you know, We're just taught to 637 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 2: push through and survive and do more and work four 638 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,479 Speaker 2: times as hard as right comes up so many times. 639 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 2: But I think it's a different like we're asking new questions. 640 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 2: We don't want to just keep doing that. It's not 641 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 2: good for us and it's not good for the next generation. 642 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: So how do we start to do power differently? How 643 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 2: do we start to set boundaries now so that we 644 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 2: can change work so that we get more to the many, right, 645 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 2: not just the fuse that. I think that's really what 646 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 2: the work is right now. 647 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm kind of chuckling in my head right now 648 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: because my baby cousin lives with me. She's my she's 649 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: my mother's helper, she's my just everything. She was my 650 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: assistant for a hot minute, not a great one, but anyway, 651 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: So but she got, she got because she knows me 652 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: too well anyway. But she just got a new job 653 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: as an executive assistant to a mom and pop fashion 654 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: label in our area. And I remember she's only done 655 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: the job for two weeks. And over the weekend she 656 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: came to me and she had these like big scary 657 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: eyes and she's like, Mandy, is this what it's like? 658 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: My boss just texted me. It's eight o'clock on a Saturday. 659 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: He texted me. He texted me, I don't want to 660 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: take text on the weekend. And I was said, well, 661 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: you know what, you don't respond to that text until 662 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: eight thirty am on Monday, which is usually when she 663 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: gets into work. And I was just like really intense 664 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: with her, like if you give me your phone, do 665 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: not respond to that text. And I was like this this, 666 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: and I was she was like, calm down, but I 667 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: was like, this is this is when it happens. This 668 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: is when you stop. You know, you don't put a 669 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: barrier in your way, and then two years from now 670 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: you're like, he's he's showing up on your front door, 671 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: you know, with a work emergency and you don't know 672 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: how your life became this way. But yeah, I'm good 673 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: for her generation. You know that the Generation Z or 674 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: whatever she is, allennial who are kind of starting to 675 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: get it, starting to get it. But I think we 676 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: still need one another to like check each other when 677 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: we when we start to forget, you know, what's really 678 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: important and what really matters. Yeah, yeah, you know. 679 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 2: Because I did. I did talk to I call them 680 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 2: less tenured women. I did talk to that generation. It's interesting. 681 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 2: I think they know more than we knew that they 682 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 2: want a different life and that they want to set 683 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 2: those boundaries. What's interesting is they don't know to your point, 684 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: if they can, and so I think more of us 685 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 2: need to say yes, don't answer that Phonte, you know, 686 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: don't text back right now, Wait till monday. It's okay. 687 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: I think they want to do it differently, but they 688 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 2: need the encouragement and the permission to do it differently. 689 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 2: So it's still there. I don't think they're fully there 690 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 2: where they're not going to respond. I think they know 691 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 2: maybe there's a different choice, but we need to help 692 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: them or remind them or you know, implore upon them. 693 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,239 Speaker 2: Don't respond a Saturday night, Wait till monday. So what 694 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 2: you did is what we need to do more of. 695 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: And mentorship, like I mean, I think that that is 696 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: such a missing piece from so many companies, is when 697 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: you spend a lot of time trying to recruit more 698 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: diverse talent, but then who's kind of taking them under 699 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,959 Speaker 1: their wing and helping show them a healthy way of 700 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: succeeding in a healthy way of moving through the company, 701 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: And what sort of systems do you have in place 702 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: to support them. That is a huge missing piece, and 703 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: I think some companies, maybe few and far between, are 704 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: are doing it. But if you're at a place where 705 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: maybe you feel like you don't have that kind of support, 706 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: then take it on yourself to find those support systems, 707 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: to find those programs. Like Dipa said, oh Man, I 708 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: used to love making my company pay for like executive 709 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: leadership seminars and coaching and all kinds of stuff. They'll 710 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: say yes, especially if they're like, oh, I don't have 711 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: to do this myself. I can just give you five 712 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: thousand dollars and problem solved, you know, let them spend 713 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: their money on it. That's how I feel. 714 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. I also think we can be peersty you know, 715 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 2: coaches and peers for each other. I think that's also 716 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 2: part of the magic and what we're seeing. So, you know, 717 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 2: information is only a year old, and I may have 718 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 2: shared this when we chatted, but just a quarter into 719 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,719 Speaker 2: our programming, we found that twenty five percent of our 720 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 2: women ask for bigger jobs or more money or left 721 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 2: their roles as a result of seeing others kind of 722 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 2: stand in their power. And it wasn't anything magical that 723 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 2: Ron and I were teaching. It was just they saw 724 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 2: each other do it, and they're like, well, if she 725 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 2: can do it, then I'm going to do it. And 726 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 2: there's something to that. And because we're so isolated, because 727 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 2: we're one of the onlies in our companies, we don't 728 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: get to see other examples and other women of color 729 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 2: asking their worth and standing in their space and all 730 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 2: of those things. And so I think it's also to 731 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,959 Speaker 2: your point, I think we need each other to just 732 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 2: just to be reminded of that too. 733 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: Hell's yeah, well where can people find out more about you, 734 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: Deepa and find out about information and the book and 735 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: all that good stuff. 736 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so my website's probably the best place because everything's there, 737 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 2: so Deepa Peru d e p A p U r 738 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 2: u dot com, the information about the book and the 739 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 2: wait list for information. We interview all women, not that 740 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 2: we are, you know, trying to sort through, but we 741 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 2: just want to make sure that the women that we 742 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 2: have part of the community know how to hold space 743 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 2: for each other and can make space for others, and 744 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 2: so we will. We will set up a time to 745 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 2: meet you and from there move you forward. If this 746 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 2: is something you're. 747 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: Interested in exciting, I love it deepa. Thank you so 748 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: much for joining Brown Ambition, and thank you for all 749 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: of the incredible work you're doing. I'm so happy that 750 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: you were able to rescue yourself and get to a 751 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: healthier place and share your many gifts and talents with us, 752 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: because clearly we've all been dying for a voice like yours, 753 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: and I'm just so happy that you've shared it with 754 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: Brown Ambition. 755 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for having me, and thank you 756 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 2: for the space you hold. We need more people to 757 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 2: have conversations like this, so thank you.