1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 2: This episode contains discussion of suicide listener discretion as advised. 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 3: It is a vertigious feeling trying to reconstruct the past, 4 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 3: realizing how much my memories have been revised to fit 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 3: my later understandings of and rationalizations for what happened. 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: If something doesn't fit the story, it just gets left 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: out until it sneaks. 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 3: Back one day, suddenly appears amid the other memories. 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: And the simple narrative line is wrecked. The neat explanation 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: no longer works. 11 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 3: If there is a truth at all in this world 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 3: of overlapping shimbdjectivities, it sometimes seems too complicated to hold 13 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 3: in my head. 14 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: I wish so much sometimes. 15 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 3: He could come back and tell me everything, fill in 16 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 3: all the blank, exactly what happened and when and why. 17 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 3: I think maybe we could be straight with each other. 18 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 3: Now I know he would want me to get this right. 19 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: That's Marian Winnick, journalist, author, book critic, and frequent commentator 20 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,839 Speaker 2: on nprs All Things Considered. Her memoir First Comes Love 21 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 2: was first published thirty years ago and is just out 22 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: in a new anniversary edition. Marian's is a story of love, loss, 23 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 2: and the secrets our hearts silently instruct us to bury, 24 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: and the way those secrets tend to nonetheless reveal themselves 25 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: in the fullness of time. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this 26 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 2: is family secrets, the secrets that are kept from us, 27 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 28 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: keep from ourselves. 29 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 3: I was born in Manhattan, and when I was two 30 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 3: and my sister was about to be born, we moved 31 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 3: to the Jersey Shore, which was my father's hometown, and 32 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 3: it was a wonderful place to grow up, right by 33 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 3: the beach, with lots of employment opportunities on the boardwalk. 34 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: For my teen years, What were your teeniers like? I 35 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: was wild? My sister was too. My poor parents. 36 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 3: I often reflect on how unbelievably bad and crazy and 37 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 3: wild we were. And I mean it literally seemed like 38 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: my entire teen years was devoted to figuring out the 39 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 3: worst thing that I could possibly do and doing them. 40 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: Just in terms of really awful boyfriends. 41 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 3: You know, who would steal my guitar and then get 42 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 3: busted and have to be bailed out of jail. And 43 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: I don't know what the hell was wrong with me, 44 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 3: but it was like I had. I had the bad 45 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 3: boy attraction in a very serious way in my teens. 46 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 3: That lessoned somewhat when I went to Brown University for college. 47 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: I was young, just seventeen. There weren't as. 48 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 3: Many truly people to fall in love with, but I 49 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 3: still managed to have a very obsessive and focused romantic attachments. 50 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: That was a kind of a theme for me. 51 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 2: So you were excelling academically even as you were blowing 52 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: things up. 53 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 3: Yes, it's rumored that I learned to read before I 54 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 3: was three. 55 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: I skipped of grades when I was young. That's why 56 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: I graduated from college so young. 57 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 3: And yeah, I was a combination smarty pants and mental case. 58 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 2: So did you know when you were a Brown or 59 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 2: even earlier that you wanted to be a writer? 60 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: Yeah? I started writing when I was eight. I had 61 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: a pen name Tracy Beth Richardson. 62 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 3: I still have the works of Tracy Beth Richardson that 63 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 3: my father had his secretary type up. And I wrote 64 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 3: these rhyming poems that were against the Vietnam War and 65 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 3: all kinds of you know, emotional drama. And Tracy Beth 66 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 3: Richardson lasted for you know, probably till I was almost 67 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 3: ten years old, and then I continued with poetry, and 68 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 3: my first two books. 69 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: That in my early twenties were poetry. 70 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 3: So I was a poet and I was very much 71 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 3: poet personality too. 72 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: Why the pen name. I just didn't think Marion Winnick 73 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: was going to make it. 74 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 3: You know, clearly I might have wanted to be a 75 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 3: wasp since Tracy Beth Richardson is so waspy. 76 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: After college, Marion imagines a life abroad. She travels to 77 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 2: Berlin with a plan to attend film school, but the 78 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 2: plan soon dismantles when she doesn't get accepted and becomes 79 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 2: incredibly homesick. After just three months, she returns to the US, 80 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 2: longing for the familiarity of home, as she says she's 81 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 2: dying to see the new Jersey Turnpike. Back in the States, 82 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 2: Marianne's life begins to orbit Austin, Texas, a city she 83 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 2: discovers almost by accident her visiting a college friend over 84 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: spring break. Austin in the late nineteen seventies is small, 85 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 2: scrappy and magnetic, cowboys and hippies, music, Mexican food, and possibility. 86 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: Marian falls in love with the city and builds a 87 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 2: life there, bringing her sister and close friends along for 88 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 2: the ride. For nearly two decades, Austin becomes her center 89 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 2: of gravity, even as she briefly leaves to attend graduate 90 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 2: school in New York in the early nineteen eighties. In 91 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: New York, Marian enrolls in the MFA program at Brooklyn College. 92 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: She begins in poetry, but switches to fiction, where her 93 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 2: deeply autobiographical stories are met with encouragement, an early step 94 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: toward the personal essays she will eventually write. At the 95 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 2: same time, she works for the Stanley Kaplan test prep company, 96 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: surrounded by other Ivy League graduates, spending her day's writing 97 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 2: exam questions and even sitting for tests herself. It's there 98 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 2: that she falls deeply in love with a co worker. 99 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 2: It's an intense, destabilizing relationship that ends painfully, compounded by 100 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 2: her escalating drug use and chaotic lifestyle. By nineteen eighty three, 101 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 2: the heartbreak is fresh and consuming. A close friend, Sandy, 102 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 2: decides what Maria needs is escape, something loud, reckless, and communal. 103 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 2: She insists they go to New Orleans for Marti Gras, 104 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 2: hoping the city's excess and celebration might offer relief. She 105 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: also tells her about a young man who will be there, 106 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: a man named Tony. 107 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 3: It was a bit counterintuitive since part of what was 108 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 3: ailing me is that I was getting high and drinking 109 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 3: all the time. But they just wanted to get me 110 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 3: out of New York City. And then my sister and 111 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 3: her boyfriend also came. A whole bunch of us went 112 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 3: in a car to Marty Brown in March in nineteen 113 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 3: eighty three. This best friend of mine, Sandy, went to 114 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 3: Lake Placid School of Art. Well, this is while I 115 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 3: was at and you know, Tony was a figure skater 116 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 3: and he was in. 117 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: Training in Lake Placid. 118 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 3: So Sandy met another artist named Shelley, and Shelley was 119 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 3: friends with Tony. So these people that we were going 120 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 3: down to visit were this, this whole group. Shelley, her boyfriend, 121 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 3: and Tony and Sandy had told me about Tony many times, 122 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 3: Tony the gay ice skater. 123 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: He's so handsome, he's so funny, he's so cool. 124 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 3: So I knew many many good things about Tony the 125 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 3: gay ice skater, and then one. 126 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: Thing I definitely knew is that he was a gay iceater. 127 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 3: He answered the door when the car load of us 128 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,119 Speaker 3: from New York pulled up in front of the house 129 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 3: and it was up in the Garden district, and I 130 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 3: took one look at him, and I really, you know, 131 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 3: it was like, boy, I just something happened. I really 132 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 3: became instantly attached, enamored. 133 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: I don't know, and I people, you know, saying, well, 134 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: I didn't I know he was gay. 135 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 3: Yes, I certainly knew he was gay, but that kind 136 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 3: of made it easier for me. 137 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: To act the way I did. I was very flirty. 138 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 3: I sat in his lap within moments of us our arrival, 139 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 3: and I was just. 140 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: Head over heels or something, I don't know. 141 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 3: And then they said, somebody has to go to the 142 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 3: grocery storre, so Tony and I got to do this 143 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 3: errand together, and he drove me down. 144 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: To the levee so I could see. 145 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 3: It, and you know, we're like in the car, playing 146 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 3: disco music and smoking cigarettes, and I just knew, like, Okay, 147 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 3: this is it. 148 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: My whole life is changing right now. 149 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 2: So how long were you there that trip and sort 150 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 2: of what was the feeling that you had of what 151 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 2: was happening between you. 152 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: We were there for about a week. 153 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 3: Tony was working at a gay bar in the French Quarter, 154 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 3: and I would basically sit there in the gay bar 155 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 3: the whole time he was working. 156 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: At this point, I was saying things. 157 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 3: Like, I must be a gay man in a woman's body. 158 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 3: I'm going to get a sex change so I could 159 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 3: be Tony's boyfriend. Things were so different then, there was 160 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 3: no gender fluidity. But he started falling in love with 161 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 3: me too, and I it was obvious, and so my 162 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 3: concept of the situations changed. So I went back to 163 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 3: New York and then we started like having this long 164 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 3: distance phone call relationship, and it just was clear that 165 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 3: he was getting just as obsessed with me as I 166 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 3: was with him. 167 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 2: There was this great detail right where one of your 168 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 2: friends tells you that he has your photo, and he's 169 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 2: like carrying it around with him and propping it up 170 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:45,599 Speaker 2: wherever he goes. 171 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 3: Right like when they go to a restaurant, he'd prop 172 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 3: me up on the napkin dispenser and order me something. 173 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, and we were on the phone. 174 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 3: This is when there actually was long distance charges too. 175 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 3: We were yell the phones for hours. He came to 176 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 3: New York and helped me move back there. I ended 177 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 3: up finishing my master's degree by mail. 178 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: We lived in New Orleans. 179 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: So at this point you and Tony are a couple, yes, right, 180 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: and you describe it as or At several points you 181 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 2: describe it as you knew that he was gay and 182 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 2: you knew that you were straight, but you were together. 183 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: It wasn't a question of whether she wasn't gay or not. 184 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: And he didn't identify as bisexual. 185 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 3: That's true, but we did sometimes have set It was 186 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 3: never a big part of our relationship in the early times. 187 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 3: I was, you know, really really focused on it and 188 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 3: very hoping to make it happen. Frequently we tried, and 189 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 3: it wasn't a total disaster. I mean, we have two 190 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 3: you know, we had two sons, and it just wasn't that. 191 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: I don't think that his love for me. 192 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 3: I do think it was romantic, but I think it 193 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 3: never was physical in the way or erotic in the 194 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 3: way that we usually are with our romantic partner. 195 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: And you marry. Tell me about getting married. That was 196 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six. 197 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 3: We went to New Jersey and got married at my 198 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 3: parents golf club, and it was performed by a mayor. 199 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 3: So it wasn't like traditional in a religious sense. 200 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: But I had a you know. 201 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 3: Big mail on in a puffy dress and he was 202 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 3: at a gorgeous suit, and the general outlines of it were. 203 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 1: Just like a wedding. 204 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 3: Lots of our friends were there are crazy friends, so 205 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 3: much wild, colorful hair at this wedding. 206 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: It was insane. And then the other half of the 207 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: people were my parents' friends from. 208 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 3: The golf club, and they were like, you know, just 209 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 3: pie eyed at this whole situation. 210 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 1: It was pretty funny. 211 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 3: After the wedding, we moved to Austin and we could 212 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 3: not live in the French Quarter anymore because everyone in 213 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 3: the whole French Quarter seemed to be Tony's ex wifefriend. 214 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: It was, you know, it. 215 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 3: Was this really intense gay community and neighborhood and it 216 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 3: was really not going to work out for people. 217 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: Not everyone could have any understanding of what I was. 218 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 3: Doing there and what was going on with us, and 219 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 3: a lot of people didn't like it, you know, and 220 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 3: so if this time, it's like everything in our life 221 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 3: was so up for grams like should I go to 222 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 3: law school, shouldn't we do this? 223 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:30,079 Speaker 1: Should I go back? 224 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 3: And Tony had lived in Austin before, and I had 225 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 3: my long term. 226 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: Love of Boston, so that was something we could agree on. 227 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 3: The idea was that he was going to hit A 228 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 3: friend of his had offered him a job at. 229 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,719 Speaker 1: The skating rink teaching. 230 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 3: And when we got there and this guy perceived that 231 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 3: Tony was with me, he evaporated that and you know, 232 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 3: didn't return Tony's clause. This whole job offer disappeared because 233 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 3: the guy was so freaked out that Tony had a girlfriend. 234 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: And so the idea that he was going to teach 235 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: bigger skating and. 236 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 3: Support me while I wrote the Great American Novel or 237 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 3: whatever was did not pan out. 238 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: So I got. 239 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 3: A job from it at a software company where I 240 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 3: ended up working for ten years. I wrote all the 241 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 3: software manuals and I wrote all the marketing stuff. And 242 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 3: it was this time of the tech boom in Austin, 243 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 3: so this was a good good choice for me. And 244 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 3: then Tony hairdresser turned out to be a great choice. 245 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: He was really a great hairdresser. 246 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 2: By nineteen ninety, you have two sons, and you're living 247 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: in Austin, and Tony's doing well as a hairdresser, and 248 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 2: you're working for the software company. There's also this specter 249 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: out there of aids. 250 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 3: We knew he was HIV positive when we got married, 251 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 3: and we knew that I wasn't, and we had had 252 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 3: so much contact of unsafe kinds that I felt, Okay, well, 253 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 3: if I don't have it, I'm not going to get it. 254 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: You know, I pretty much have injected it into my 255 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 1: veins and. 256 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 3: I don't have and I didn't you know, zero convert 257 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 3: as they say, So you know, I thought I would 258 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 3: never get it. I thought there would certainly be a 259 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 3: cure pretty soon because Tony, even though we knew we 260 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 3: had it in nineteen eighty five, it was really pretty 261 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 3: healthy until you know, for another six seven years. 262 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: So this speaks to also the whole idea of like 263 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: the secrets that we keep from ourselves. 264 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: Like when he got tested, not every person who had. 265 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 2: Been you know, knowingly exposed, you know, whether through drugs 266 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 2: or through or through sex, went and got tested. A 267 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 2: lot of people buried their head in the sand. What 268 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 2: made Tony and you get tested in nineteen eighty five. 269 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: We're planning to. 270 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 3: Get married and have children, so we didn't really stick 271 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 3: our heads in the sand. We had to find out 272 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 3: what the situation was. And you know, a lot of 273 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 3: people don't know that our children could only have become 274 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 3: HIV positive if I had become HIV positive. 275 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: It's transmitted from the blood of the mother. 276 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 3: So as long as I didn't suddenly get it the 277 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 3: time that we conceived, they would not get it. 278 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: You know. Among the many things I was so. 279 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 3: Confident about, that was one of them where I was 280 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 3: right at least, you know, so uh yeah, but we 281 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 3: had to know, and you know, the treatments were so 282 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 3: slow and in coming, and the ones there were so 283 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 3: many that did app didn't do much at all. But 284 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 3: we were macrobiotic and did all kinds of New age 285 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 3: health things and you know, tried everything that you could 286 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 3: think of for years, in addition to AZT and whatever 287 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: drugs they started having. 288 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 2: And so there was a shift in those years when 289 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: it's so interesting and plinian on the one hand, the 290 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 2: hard partying and all of the wildness and all of 291 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 2: the dangers and all of the risks, and the two 292 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 2: of you, in falling in love, know that you want 293 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 2: to do this very traditional thing, which is get married 294 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 2: and have a family. So did that change for you 295 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 2: in those years when you were starting to focus on that. 296 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 3: Of course, I mean I had always thought, well, when 297 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 3: I get ready to be a mom, I'll just quit 298 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 3: all this, and a lot of people would think, well, 299 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 3: it won't be that easy, especially since heroine was one 300 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 3: of the drugs I was involved with. 301 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: But that's exactly what happened. 302 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 3: So the minute we started trying to get pregnantly, I 303 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 3: just quit everything. 304 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: And I mean not just drugs and alcohol, but caffeine. 305 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 3: And cigarettes, which I had been smoking for years, and 306 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 3: I wouldn't need food additives, and so I just did 307 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 3: it all like instantly, because the important. 308 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: To me of becoming a mom was everything. 309 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 3: Tony supportively, you know, stopped doing a lot of things too, 310 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 3: though it wasn't as firm a decision for him, and 311 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 3: he ended up kind of getting sucked back into a 312 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 3: lot of partying. 313 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: Describe Tony as a dad. He was like a wonder dad. 314 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 3: It's so amazing because I don't think he had ever 315 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 3: even dreamed that he would be a dad, as you know, 316 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 3: as a gay man in the seventies and eighties, and 317 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 3: he was such a natural. He spent all his time 318 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 3: with the boys. I have, like, don't have any patients. 319 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 3: Don't want to make macaroni necklaces, you know of course, 320 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 3: I loved my babies, and I loved nursing, and there's 321 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 3: a lot of things I love, but I didn't have 322 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 3: much patience for childcare in the early years, or at 323 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 3: least not compared to him. He just was born to, 324 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 3: you know, be a daddy. So starting in May nineteen 325 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 3: ninety one, I was on the radio maybe two or 326 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 3: three times a month, telling stories about my life with 327 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 3: Tony and the boys mostly and whatever other topics caught 328 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 3: my fancy. So listeners, of all things considered, had you know, 329 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 3: a little window into our life. One of them was 330 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 3: about I'm Jewish, Tony's Catholic. 331 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: What are we going to do about the holidays? That 332 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: would be one topic. 333 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 2: But it wasn't like I'm straight, Tony's gay, or Tony 334 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: has held no yeah. 335 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. We didn't even really say that Tony was gay 336 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 3: at this point. 337 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: It was like, it's not that he was trying. 338 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 3: To hide that he was gay, but it didn't play 339 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: a big role in our life as parents, so it 340 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 3: never would have come up at this time. 341 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: There was a lot of prejudice against. 342 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 3: People with AIDS, and it was not you know, something 343 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 3: that you would want as a hairdresser to have everyone 344 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 3: in town know. 345 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: That you're HIV positive. 346 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 3: So we didn't talk about it, and we certainly didn't 347 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 3: tell about it on the now sational public radio. 348 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: You know, it's not that we hid it from our friends. 349 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 3: But it was not something that I would consider publicizing 350 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 3: or thinking part of my writing. I had a pretty 351 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 3: good sense of Tony's you know, agency and privacy. I'm 352 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 3: just this is like when I'm beginning to become a 353 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 3: personal essayist and really explore my own boundaries of how 354 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 3: vulnerable and honest I'm willing to be in writing. But 355 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 3: you know, for him, he didn't have to explore that. 356 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 3: You know, I could give him a zone of protection. 357 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 3: So in my first book, which preceded First Comes Love, 358 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 3: which is it's a collection of essays called Telling, I 359 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 3: referred to Tony once as a sexually ambiguous ice skating bartender. 360 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 3: And that's the closest I come to saying anything. 361 00:19:51,560 --> 00:20:06,719 Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 362 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 2: By nineteen ninety one, Tony's health has declined. Then in 363 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two it declines much more steeply. Tony is 364 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 2: diagnosed with AIDS. Once he has the dreaded diagnosis, his 365 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 2: drug addiction goes into overdrive because it's not going to matter. 366 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 2: After all, he's been given a death sentence. He lives 367 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: for a year and a half until he succumbs to 368 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 2: the disease when his sons are six and four. 369 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 3: I know, some people that are Tony's generation of AIDS 370 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 3: are patients who have made it. There's not many, but unfortunately, 371 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 3: at this point, drug addiction was taking such a toll 372 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 3: on him and kind of eating away at his life force. 373 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 2: Did he just kind of surrender to his addiction once 374 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 2: he knew that he was not going to make it. 375 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 3: Kind of, I mean, he just he I think he 376 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 3: just wrote himself a permission slip. 377 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: That to do anything he wanted to, you. 378 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 3: Know, and once he knew he was going to die, 379 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 3: that's kind of what happened. He he just stopped, you know, 380 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 3: worrying about being macrobiotic and all those things. And he 381 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 3: was prescribed tons of opiates because of these all these painful, 382 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 3: horrible things that he had. 383 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: So this is how it really started. He had bottles 384 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: of two hundred perkudans and stuff, and that led. 385 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 3: As it does, you know, to so many people to 386 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 3: street drugs, which he already knew about, and this drug 387 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 3: thing really took over, and in my opinion, is just 388 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 3: it killed him just as much as Aids did. 389 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 2: So in the end, Tony, he's suffering and he's in pain, 390 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 2: and he wants to end his life and he asks 391 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: you to help him. 392 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 3: Well, you know, my sister's husband are very close dear 393 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 3: brother in law, Steve, he died the year before Tony, 394 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 3: so I guess nineteen ninety three, and he told Tony, 395 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 3: you know, the end is it's just too terrible. When 396 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 3: Steve died, he weighed like ninety pounds. He was in diapers. 397 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: It was awful. And Tony was really on the way there. 398 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 3: He was very, very very skinny and very very sick, 399 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 3: and he was in a really wonderful hospice that they 400 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 3: have in Austin called Christopher House. And what he wanted 401 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 3: to do is come home from the Christopher House and 402 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 3: do an assisted suicide with me helping him. It was 403 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 3: very hard to arrange the plan because some people that 404 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 3: were opposed to the idea assisted suicide seemed to. 405 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: Find out about the plan. 406 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 3: And then our doctor who was going to give me 407 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 3: the prescription for sixty and M but he said, you know, please, 408 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 3: you can't do this. People know about it, don't fill 409 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 3: the prescription. So we had to pause on the whole thing. 410 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 1: And then about after a week or two, things kind of. 411 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 3: Died down and we were able to arrange it another way. 412 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 3: So he did get his big dream. He got out 413 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 3: of hospice. We went to the Four Seasons Hotel for lunch. 414 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: He came home. He died in his bed. 415 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: Marian goes on the radio shortly after Tony's death. This 416 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: is what she does, after all. She tells raw, unvarnished 417 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 2: stories by herself in a sound booth that are then 418 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: broadcast into the wider world. She wants to tell the 419 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 2: whole of her story, the truth about Tony and what 420 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 2: happened to him. She wants to defend his choice to 421 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 2: ask for assisted suicide and her choice to agree. I 422 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 2: wanted to talk about it on National Public READEO. I 423 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 2: felt like I needed to explain how. 424 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 3: Very justified Tony was in deciding how to make his 425 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 3: exit rather than waiting for the you know, bitter end. 426 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: And I wrote that. 427 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 3: A piece that was about explaining this, and NPR Legal 428 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 3: department said, you probably should not run this, you know, 429 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 3: assisted suicide is a felony in the state of Texas. 430 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 3: You could have protesters coming to your house. All kinds 431 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 3: of things could happen. But I thought, once again, I 432 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 3: thought I know everything, so I thought that wouldn't happen. 433 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: And Austin was a liberal city. 434 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 3: I didn't I was like a minor celebrity known as 435 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 3: a mom of little kids and everything. 436 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: I just didn't see it. I didn't think they would 437 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: come get me, and they didn't. The Houston Chronicle ran 438 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: a front. 439 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 3: Page story, and part of the reason I ended up 440 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 3: writing First Comes Love was the response to this commentary. 441 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 3: I don't think it's an exaggeration to say I got 442 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 3: hundreds of letters from people who heard this essay, and 443 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 3: they were people who had been following our life story 444 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 3: for you know, since ninety one, so for three years. 445 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 3: And the amount of support and love that I got 446 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 3: in from these letters is kind of was part of 447 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 3: where I got my belief that I should publish the book. 448 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: And I want to make sure that I make the 449 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 2: point that in the mid nineteen. 450 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: Nineties, memoirs were not it was. 451 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 2: It was very early, and I mean it wasn't early 452 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 2: in terms of the form of memoir, which has been 453 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 2: around since St. 454 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: Augustine. 455 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 2: But we weren't living in a culture where there was 456 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 2: a lot of transparency where people were telling their stories. 457 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: I thought that First Comes Love would be published as 458 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: a novel. 459 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 3: Most things of that, you know, really really personal, vulnerable 460 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 3: type of material was published as fiction. But this was 461 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 3: in the same period where people who were not you know, 462 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 3: eighty five years old and Winston Churchill, you know, reflecting 463 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 3: on their long career or something. 464 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: You know, this is where we started having writers. 465 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 3: Put the focus on maybe a smaller part of their life, 466 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 3: not even their whole life, their childhood or some you know, 467 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 3: their marriage or whatever, and right in a self revealing, 468 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 3: vulnerable way that had not really been seen before in nonfiction. 469 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: Right, right, yeah, it was. 470 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 3: It was a pretty radical shift, and so random House 471 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 3: said my editor said when I said, well, it'll be fiction, right, 472 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 3: and they said, no, it can't be published as fiction 473 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 3: because this story has so many unbelievable elements that we 474 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 3: need the assertion of truth, you know, like how did 475 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 3: this gay man stay with this straight woman? 476 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: And how did I not get AIDS? And how did 477 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 1: the kids not get AIDS? And how did this like 478 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: so many things happened. You know, we're hard to believe. 479 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: How did I quit Heroin overnight? 480 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 3: You know? And so it had to have the assertion 481 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 3: of truth to make it interesting. Otherwise it would just 482 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 3: be like, you know, how does this woman think we're 483 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 3: going to read this ridiculous novel? 484 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 2: When the book, the memoir comes out, Marian receives an 485 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 2: invitation no writer can really refuse Oprah. As she prepares 486 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 2: for the appearance, a producer calls to clarify the story 487 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 2: they'll be telling, Marian's long devoted, monogamous relationship with her 488 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 2: husband Tony, who is gay. But then the producer pauses 489 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 2: and tells her something else. The producer was just on 490 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 2: a call with a man in San Francisco, someone who 491 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: insists that he and Tony were lovers for years. In 492 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 2: that moment, the ground shifts. What Marian believed was a settled, 493 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: shared understanding of her marriage suddenly fractures a private truth, 494 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 2: a secret that was kept from her, threatens to become 495 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 2: public television, and the story she thought she was going 496 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 2: on OPRAH to tell the story she told in her book, 497 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 2: begins to unravel. 498 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: I had given her that guy's number. I mean they 499 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: were harassing me to. 500 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 3: Help them find other examples of gay men who had 501 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 3: relationships with straight women because the show wasn't really about 502 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 3: my book. The show was about relationships between straight women 503 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 3: and gay men, and so they needed more. 504 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,719 Speaker 1: They wanted to have a whole bunch of guests that 505 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: were like this. You know. First of all, I was like, well, 506 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: I don't know how many people like this there are. 507 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 3: And second of all, I don't know how many of 508 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 3: them want to go on OPRAH because they don't. 509 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: You know, have some product to promote. 510 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 3: But this guy Carry, he had a very close, very 511 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 3: very close woman friend, and I thought. 512 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: Maybe that something like that, or maybe he would know 513 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: someone else. 514 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 3: I just, you know, I was trying to give I 515 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 3: gave him a few different kept contact and he was 516 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 3: one of them. 517 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: So I actually told them to call. 518 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 3: Carry Jaggers, and yeah, Carry Jaggers told them that he 519 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 3: had had, you know, a sexual relationship with Tony that 520 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 3: went on through the whole time of our marriage, you know, 521 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 3: including the early parts and when I was pregnant and 522 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 3: all this stuff. And I was totally shocked, and I 523 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 3: immediately told the producer I need to get off the phone, 524 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 3: and I called Carry Jaggers and he said, but Marian, 525 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 3: you knew, and I was like, no, I didn't know. 526 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: I never knew. 527 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know if he actually believed I 528 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 3: knew or what, but he said he thought I knew 529 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 3: the whole time. And he also tried to reassure me. 530 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 3: He said, you know, it's not like we were lovers 531 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 3: or something. We were just buck buddies. 532 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: So this was a big shock to me. 533 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 3: And I was also so embarrassed because I had just 534 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 3: published this book about my monomon, I mean, his relationshipship 535 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 3: with me gay and I mean, you know, I felt 536 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 3: very bad. 537 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 2: There's a concept that comes up a lot on this 538 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 2: podcast that is a psychoanalytic term that I came across 539 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 2: when when I was writing my memoir about my father 540 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 2: and learning that he was not my biological father, which 541 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 2: is the unthought known and it's something that we know, 542 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 2: like the sort of we know in our bones, but 543 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 2: is too dangerous to allow ourselves to think. And I'm 544 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 2: wondering whether you think that that was going on for 545 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: you on any level, and also what it felt to 546 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: you to be sort of almost doubly exposed where your 547 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 2: book is just out, which is exposing as hell, and 548 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 2: you're being sort of exposed to yourself in a way 549 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 2: of like you're learning something that you really truly did 550 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 2: not consciously know. 551 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 3: One of the things that happened early on, right around 552 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 3: the time, I went to some campus and gave a 553 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 3: lecture to a room full of students who had just 554 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 3: read First Comes Love, and I told them about this 555 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 3: happening and me finding out that, you know, suddenly getting 556 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 3: this shocking news. 557 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: And they all looked at me and said, but I 558 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: thought that was in the book. 559 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 3: They actually were able to guess and interpret that this 560 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 3: that Tony was probably having other relationships. 561 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: Just because I gave all the evidence. 562 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 3: You know, he's out overnight, he's this that, And they 563 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,479 Speaker 3: were surprised that I was so surprised because somehow in 564 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 3: writing the book I let them know. So I think 565 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 3: you're very right about it being the unthought known, because 566 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 3: it's it was just like that I must have really 567 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 3: kind of known, because how did I. 568 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: So eloquently to convince all my readers. But actually, when 569 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: I went back and. 570 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 3: Read the book, now, I mean, I see where I'm 571 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 3: saying Tony must have become a sexual, And you know, 572 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 3: I try to make up all the these crazy reasons 573 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 3: why this was going on. 574 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: But you know, no, It's now thirty years since the 575 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 2: publication of Marian's memoir, with an anniversary edition about to 576 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 2: come out. There's never been an audiobook, so Marian's invited 577 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 2: to narrate her own story. But in the three decades 578 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: that have passed, the story has changed. As stories do, 579 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 2: Marian knows more now, and so as she sits in 580 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 2: the soundproof booth, a familiar landscape for her, she finds 581 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 2: herself wanting to clarify, to edit, to rewrite her own 582 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 2: story in real time. 583 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 3: When I was rereading the book in preparation for doing 584 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 3: the audio, I mean, I was like underlining all the 585 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 3: parts that were completely embarrassingly wrong, so I set that 586 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 3: up in the introduction, and then reading the book in 587 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:01,239 Speaker 3: general was like an amazing opportunity for sixty seven year 588 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 3: old me to visit with twenty six year old me 589 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 3: and thirty year old me. I mean, I think you 590 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 3: can hear in my voice on the audio that I've 591 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 3: you know, I'm short of laughing at myself. I'm very 592 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 3: dimused by myself. My reactions are very much in my voice. 593 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 3: But then when I got to about the third or 594 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 3: fourth occasion where I was making one of these insane 595 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 3: assertions about Tony's asexuality, and I just stopped, and I 596 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 3: asked the director, can I like saying something about this? 597 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: And she said, sure, go ahead. So I break the 598 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: fourth wall and I say, okay, readers. 599 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 3: Remember I told you that there was parts that I 600 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 3: underline in my books, Well, this is this is one, 601 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 3: you know. And I talked a little bit about how 602 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 3: I just didn't know, but I was, you know, gonna 603 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 3: know pretty soon, but I didn't know yet. And you know, 604 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 3: let the reader experience with me my little outrage at 605 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 3: having let myself. 606 00:33:58,680 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: Think this foolish thing. 607 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 3: But you know, I used to think that I should 608 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 3: be like mad at Tony about this, like I was 609 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 3: hurt and betrayed, and that was all my initial reactions. 610 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 1: And that I maintained for years was like hurt and betrayal. 611 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 3: But now I think Tony was making our life work 612 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 3: the only way he could figure out to do it. 613 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: One of the good. 614 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 3: Reads reviewers that hates the book said, if not actually 615 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 3: said woman, she forced this man back into the closet. 616 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: When I read that sentence, I thought, you know, You're 617 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: not wrong. You're not wrong. 618 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 3: I was just so, you know, convinced that we had 619 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 3: to have this like certain pattern of our relationship. We 620 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 3: had to fit the picture of the monogamous, heterostexual couple 621 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 3: that I didn't. 622 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: Leave any room for what was the truth. And so 623 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: I've really lately come to a big. 624 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,919 Speaker 3: Change in how I feel about this, Like I think, 625 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 3: thank you, Tony, thank you for making it work as 626 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 3: long as you did. I didn't make any space for 627 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 3: Tony to be who he really was, or at least sexually. 628 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 3: And I think there was no way he would have 629 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 3: made it through this ten year long relationship without a 630 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,359 Speaker 3: secret life because he did not turn asexual. 631 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: You know, that's not what happened. And our sex life, 632 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,919 Speaker 1: which always was poking. 633 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 3: Along in one way or another the whole time, was 634 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 3: not really his jam. And you know, I'm not saying 635 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 3: we really don't know too much of what happened. We 636 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 3: know Tony had a relationship with Kerry Jaggers. 637 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: On and off over the years. 638 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 3: Were there are other people, you know, I wouldn't doubt it, 639 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 3: But it's not like I've found out he had like 640 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 3: fifty lovers or anything like that. And he probably did 641 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 3: do his best to live up to this standard that 642 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 3: we both sort of. I feel like we dreamed it 643 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 3: up together at the beginning, but after a while, I 644 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 3: think I was the one waving the standard about it. 645 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: It's too bad. But you know, if Tony had not died, 646 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: what would have happened is. 647 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 3: That we would have split up and been best friends, 648 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 3: you know, and raised and co parented these kids together, 649 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 3: and he would have got They would have had probably 650 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 3: two daddies and you know. 651 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: Well three daddies if I remarried. 652 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 3: But I think if he didn't die, he would have 653 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 3: returned to his previously scheduled programming. I mean when I 654 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 3: said thank you, Tony, I felt something. You know, I've 655 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 3: really changed how I think about this, and I'm. 656 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: So glad that I did. I wish that I had seen. 657 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 3: This earlier and that I didn't feel so betrayed and 658 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 3: humiliated and as you said, double because of the book 659 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 3: having all these assertions in it. 660 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: But I wish I could have gotten it while he 661 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: was still alive. 662 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 2: Here's Marian reading a brief passage from her new introduction 663 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 2: to First Comes Love. 664 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,280 Speaker 1: Dear, dear, beautiful Tony. 665 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 3: It is my pleasure to introduce him to you as 666 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 3: I write this. His sons, Hayes and Vinced, are thirty 667 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 3: seven and thirty five, and he has two grandchildren, and 668 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 3: perhaps someday we will take them to see his square 669 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 3: on the Aids Quilt. 670 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: It is terrible to think of what we. 671 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 3: Lost when this generation was decimated, but it is also 672 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 3: very sweet to bring back the long lost. 673 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: World of the nineteen eighties. 674 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,240 Speaker 3: With the weather Girl's reigning men, the Pointer sisters jumping 675 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 3: for their loves, Tony right before my besotted eyes, and 676 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 3: Stilmester asking do we want to funk? 677 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: Please go right ahead. 678 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 2: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zuacour is 679 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 2: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 680 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 2: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 681 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 2: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 682 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 2: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 683 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,840 Speaker 2: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 684 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 2: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd 685 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 2: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 686 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 2: check out my memoir Inheritance. 687 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 688 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.