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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. It's been said that

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Speaker 1: the most precious thing that any of us possess is time.

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Speaker 1: You can't add it to your life. I suppose you

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Speaker 1: can waste it, but it's something that you can never

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Speaker 1: get back. We measure our lives by the clock. How

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Speaker 1: long do I have to get to work? How long

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Speaker 1: before I don't know my favorite program comes on? How

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Speaker 1: much longer is this lecture going to last? When it

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Speaker 1: comes to my students at college. But we take its measure.

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Speaker 1: We look at the clock on the wall. Perhaps we

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Speaker 1: look at our phones constantly. There's always kind of an awareness,

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Speaker 1: isn't there? But I want to give you a specific

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Speaker 1: time today, specific time that involves the life of an

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Speaker 1: eleven year old little girl. That specific time is roughly

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Speaker 1: thirty minutes. That's eighteen hundred seconds. Think about that, just

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Speaker 1: for a moment. A life that has been lived from

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Speaker 1: birth until the age of eleven, and then within a

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Speaker 1: thirty minute window, she is no more. Today we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about one of the most gruesome murders that

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Speaker 1: we've covered in sometime. We're going to talk about the

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Speaker 1: butchering of an eleven year old girl in Miami, Marthakuseman,

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body.

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Speaker 2: Bags, Dave.

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Speaker 1: How frequently do you look at the clock? I mean

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Speaker 1: everything you do. I don't see how you do everything

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Speaker 1: you do because you work with Nancy Grace and my lord,

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Speaker 1: the stuff that she has to do. It's so the

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Speaker 1: material is so dense, it moves so quickly. I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to say I'm an afterthought, but you know, compared

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Speaker 1: to Nancy, I move at a glacial pace, and I can't.

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Speaker 1: I know, you spent a lot of time looking at

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Speaker 1: a clock, don't you trying to do the next thing

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Speaker 1: in your life?

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Speaker 3: Everything? And it's one of the weirdest things about being

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Speaker 3: married to somebody in the media is the spouse either

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Speaker 3: has to understand that life is built on a clock

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Speaker 3: or you can't be together. It really is that simple,

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Speaker 3: because the reality is I live on a clock. You

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Speaker 3: live on a clock too, with classes and schedules, and

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Speaker 3: you're booked on every show known to mankind. If there's

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Speaker 3: a forensic, if there's a drop of blood somewhere, hey

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Speaker 3: called Joe Scott Morgan. It's pretty cool that is that way.

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Speaker 3: But you're right time is precious.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm not complaining about that, But you're right,

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Speaker 1: Tom is precious, and it is I don't know if

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Speaker 1: we can call it a commodity. I actually think it is. Look,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you that from a life having been

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Speaker 1: lived spent with the dead as I have, it's right

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Speaker 1: in my face. I use it relative to time since death.

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Speaker 1: When was the last time someone took their medication? How

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Speaker 1: long did this type of injury take in order for

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Speaker 1: someone to die? When was the last time they were

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Speaker 1: seen alive? But from a more philosophical standpoint, I look

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Speaker 1: at a body that's laying there before me, and I

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Speaker 1: think this is an example of a clock stopping and

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Speaker 1: no one saw it coming.

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Speaker 3: You don't think of an eleven year old as dying

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Speaker 3: a heinous way and then having the person that perpetrated

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Speaker 3: the crime being so cowardly as to try to blame

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Speaker 3: it on the eleven year old victim, which is exactly

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Speaker 3: what happened with Martha Gouseman at eleven years old. The

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Speaker 3: question was it suicide or murder? I'm not kidding, that

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Speaker 3: was a real question. But Joe, as we take a

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Speaker 3: look at some of these not even all, just some

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Speaker 3: of the injuries on Martha Gouseman, the pain level alan

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Speaker 3: would have been prevented her from doing anything else. I'm wondering,

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Speaker 3: how what does it take to inflict this type of

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Speaker 3: carnage on someone. I don't know if that's the right

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Speaker 3: term or not.

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Speaker 1: Really a lot to examine in this case. Day, But

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Speaker 1: back to something you said deflection in this particular case

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Speaker 1: from an investigative standpoint, the little eleven year old who

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Speaker 1: is butchered in this case, I don't know any other

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Speaker 1: way to really put it. How is it that you

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Speaker 1: assigned blame to an eleven year old. What we have

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Speaker 1: come to find out is that the perpetrator in this case,

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Speaker 1: he claimed that this young girl had a history of

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Speaker 1: self inflicting cuts or self harm. And for folks out

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Speaker 1: there that are not really aware of what that means

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Speaker 1: is that many times individuals get so involved, I think

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Speaker 1: in that space between their ears and they're grieving, I

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Speaker 1: think internally they're dealing with emotional pain, sadness, they've got

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Speaker 1: anger that's going on, maybe they're stressed out, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: they begin to inflict non suicidal injuries upon themselves. And

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Speaker 1: I've seen these manifested in cases that wind up turning

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Speaker 1: into suicides. And you'll see histories of these where you

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Speaker 1: can actually begin to read old scars on the body.

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Speaker 1: These kind of you call them superficial, but many times

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Speaker 1: they'll have these deep scratches, for instance, on their wrists,

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Speaker 1: on the backs of their legs, where they're taking an

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Speaker 1: item like the tip of a knife blade and they're

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Speaker 1: just kind of dragging it along. And it's unknown what

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Speaker 1: type of relief I think that they get from those

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Speaker 1: stressors that are in their life. But there is a

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Speaker 1: thread that runs through this behavior where the idea of

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Speaker 1: inflicted self pain I think numbs them to the pain

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Speaker 1: that they're feeling internally. And for an investigator, when you

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Speaker 1: have this idea that's put forward that yet this young

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Speaker 1: girl who's only eleven would begin to harm herself in

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Speaker 1: this way and then it's going to escalate to this

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Speaker 1: kind of butchery. You look at what you're seeing the scene,

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Speaker 1: you're saying, Wow, this goes way beyond anything that I

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Speaker 1: could imagine that she's kind of superficially doing. You're taking

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Speaker 1: like a leap, You've jumped over an intermediate step here.

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Speaker 1: When you're talking about, say, for instance, maybe she would

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Speaker 1: try an attempted suicide. Now you've gone to this area

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Speaker 1: where she's inflicted so much damage to your body that

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Speaker 1: it can't be explained. I think one of the really

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Speaker 1: important things here, Dave is try to understand her home life,

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Speaker 1: what was going on with her.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is one of those scenarios that plays itself

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Speaker 3: out in homes across the United States of America. We

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Speaker 3: have eleven year old Martha goose Man, whose mother, Marie Alvaringa,

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Speaker 3: and Miguel Rui's Lobo. They had been involved in a

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Speaker 3: relationship for long enough time that they actually lived together

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Speaker 3: for a while as a family unit. You had, you know, mom,

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Speaker 3: the stepdad, and Martha right there in the mix. But

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Speaker 3: home life was chaotic. Home life was filled with alcohol,

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Speaker 3: It was filled with physical abuse, verbal abuse. It was

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Speaker 3: not a happy, peaceful home life. And you know, it's amazing, Joe,

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Speaker 3: how children can see through to the truth in relationships

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Speaker 3: a lot quicker than a lot of adults because we

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Speaker 3: sugarcoat things. We try to balance out the pros and

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Speaker 3: the cons and what's good and bad, and what her

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Speaker 3: mother couldn't see Martha could. Martha could see crystal clear

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Speaker 3: that this man Miguel Rui's Lobo was not good for them.

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Speaker 3: He was not good to her mother. He wasn't good

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Speaker 3: to her, and Martha made that no own to her mother. Martha,

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Speaker 3: at eleven years old, convinced her adult mother this guy's

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Speaker 3: bad news. So finally Martha's mom said get out, get out,

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Speaker 3: and he thought getting out. He didn't want to leave

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Speaker 3: getting a place to go first of all, but he

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Speaker 3: did leave, and he had been gone for a couple

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Speaker 3: of months. That's what makes this so traumatic. On top

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Speaker 3: of how bad it is, there's an additional level of

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Speaker 3: bad Joe. We've got an eleven year old girl that

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Speaker 3: her mom makes a great decision for me. I'm sure

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Speaker 3: you know what. I bet I'm Maria felt so good.

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Speaker 3: I bet mom felt so good about this decision. Our

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Speaker 3: life is moving forward. There was a lot of there's

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Speaker 3: still chaos, but it wasn't overwhelming to her family, and

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Speaker 3: her daughter wasn't upset about it like it had been.

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Speaker 1: You get this one element out of the environment, the boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: I'm never a fan of the boyfriend. In this circumstance,

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Speaker 1: when you've got a single mother, she's got this young

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Speaker 1: girl she's raising, it creates a very unstable environment many

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Speaker 1: times when there's no commitment on the part of the

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Speaker 1: mail perhaps and he's abusing them and emotionally abusing them

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Speaker 1: from what could be surmised. You know, they lived in

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Speaker 1: this little apartment in Little Havana in Miami, which Little

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Speaker 1: Havannah is a really cool place if you've never been there.

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Speaker 1: It's a neat place to go and see the old

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Speaker 1: guy's playing Domino's and watching them hand roll cigars and

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Speaker 1: those sorts of things. I love it down there. But

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Speaker 1: you know, they lived in this environment for this period

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Speaker 1: of time. And what is really heartbreaking about this, I

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Speaker 1: think at least, is that we know that there was

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Speaker 1: evil that was lurking just around the corner in this case,

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Speaker 1: and the mother of Martha actually went to the court

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Speaker 1: and asked for restraining order, and of course, as in

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Speaker 1: many cases, it was not granted. Writers throw around the

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Speaker 1: term blood bath with some frequency. It's been used as

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Speaker 1: a literary device for years and years. I can tell you,

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Speaker 1: as I have told my listeners before, sharp horse injuries

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Speaker 1: are the single most bloody thing you can work as

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Speaker 1: an investigator at a scene, and blood tells a lot

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Speaker 1: at the scene. The tough thing, Dave, is that many

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Speaker 1: times blood can obscure things upon your initial viewing. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: you're not going to get all of the information that

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Speaker 1: you need to do an assessment because blood's kind of

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Speaker 1: blocking the way. It'll tell a story, but sometimes it'll

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Speaker 1: mask things.

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Speaker 3: Joe, when we set the table here to understand what happened,

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Speaker 3: and you mentioned all the blood because a knife was

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Speaker 3: used in this attack. But I don't know if you're aware, Joe,

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Speaker 3: and I don't know that I pointed it out in

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Speaker 3: looking at this, but Miguel Rui's Lobo was not a

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Speaker 3: small man. He was six feet four inches tall and

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Speaker 3: two hundred and twenty pounds. When Martha, he knew Martha

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Speaker 3: would be at home alone because he knew their schedule.

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Speaker 3: He knew Mom would be gone, Martha would be home alone,

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Speaker 3: and so he shows up at the door. You mentioned

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Speaker 3: a minute ago that Mom had filed for restraining order,

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Speaker 3: but it was denied, so kind of assuming there was

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Speaker 3: a lot of negativity here.

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Speaker 1: But somehow he actually knows the location of a hidden key, Dave.

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Speaker 1: He actually knew the location to a hidden key that

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Speaker 1: he recovered. And you know what, Dave, this can be

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Speaker 1: appreciated on a surveillance tape from outside the apparent apartment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they had to identify when did it take place. Okay,

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Speaker 3: just so you know that mom didn't get home till

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Speaker 3: about two twenty eight that afternoon, and we have on video,

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Speaker 3: we have Miguel Rui's Lobo at the door.

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Speaker 1: Within the details. As an investigator, many times that's where

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Speaker 1: the answer lies. And this is a good point here,

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Speaker 1: I think, because you're trying to understand this, how do

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Speaker 1: you get access to this? And one of the points

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Speaker 1: that you brought out a few moments ago. Give me

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Speaker 1: that number again for his.

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Speaker 3: Size six twenty.

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Speaker 1: That's like the size light. But he could with that

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Speaker 1: kind of size, he could be a linebacker in the

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Speaker 1: NFL sixty four to twenty from the autopsy, Dave, this

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Speaker 1: little eleven year old girl. And when I say little,

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Speaker 1: pay attention to that, because Dave, she was only four

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Speaker 1: foot eight and weighed at the time of her autopsy

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Speaker 1: sixty pounds day sixty pounds. So this guy has got

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Speaker 1: access via key that he knew was hidden. He comes

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Speaker 1: in and what's she going to say?

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Speaker 2: What she could?

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine having this raging bull come in at

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Speaker 1: you at that age.

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Speaker 3: You know, one of the things that was shown in

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Speaker 3: court was the fact that a neighbor's video camera, surveillance

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Speaker 3: camera did seek Miguel Rui's logo approaching the apartment at

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Speaker 3: ten twenty eight am, and he left the apartment at

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Speaker 3: eleven am. Now, Mom didn't get home until two twenty eight,

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Speaker 3: and no one else enters between the time here, so

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Speaker 3: we actually know I don't know another way to explain

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Speaker 3: how somebody else went in there and did this. Now,

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Speaker 3: the idea of what Mom walked into is still shocking

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Speaker 3: to me. As Mom walks in at two twenty eight

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Speaker 3: in the afternoon, she has met with a sight of

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Speaker 3: destruction of her child. Her daughter, her baby at eleven

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Speaker 3: years old, has been so hurt, so damaged. He slashed

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Speaker 3: her throat and tried to stage it to look like

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Speaker 3: a suicide. I don't know if he really thought it

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Speaker 3: would work. To blame this on the child just boggles

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Speaker 3: my mind.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the fact that he's going to blame this on

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Speaker 1: self harm is really astounding to me. And to back

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Speaker 1: up just a moment, when the mother arrives back home, now,

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Speaker 1: remember just let's set the table here just for a second.

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Speaker 1: Peace is settled upon this apartment. Again, he's out of

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Speaker 1: the picture, Dave, He's out of the picture now. Granted

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Speaker 1: she couldn't get the restraining order, and this psychopath has

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Speaker 1: shown back up, and she's not there to protect her daughter,

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Speaker 1: protect her daughter. Her daughter's eleven years old. I was

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Speaker 1: staying at home, I think, by myself when I was eight.

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Speaker 1: You can imagine that in today's times. But to think

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Speaker 1: that your life is back on track, You're going to

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Speaker 1: make a better life for you and your daughter, and

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Speaker 1: to walk in to this horror show that the mother

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Speaker 1: walks into and when she initially stated what she saw,

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Speaker 1: it came out in Spanish, and essentially what she saw

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Speaker 1: lying curled in a fetal position on the floor was

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Speaker 1: her baby girl. And Dave, this's knife that you had

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Speaker 1: mentioned just a moment ago, was buried in her neck,

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Speaker 1: buried in her neck, sticking out, protruding, and there's blood everywhere.

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Speaker 1: And you can imagine, I can imagine, at least because

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Speaker 1: I've seen it happen. There's a thing within humans where

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Speaker 1: we have to confirm things through touch. It's very basic,

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Speaker 1: rudimentary need that we have. It's a tactile thing. And

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Speaker 1: what you'll see many times with these events that are

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Speaker 1: just the most horrific thing you can see. When you're

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Speaker 1: interviewing the individual that has first made contact or found

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Speaker 1: the individual, particularly like a parent, they will be covered

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Speaker 1: themselves in blood. They'll have it on the hands, all

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Speaker 1: the contact surfaces. They'll embrace the child. They don't care.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like they can't see the blood for that

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Speaker 1: moment in time. All they see is this child that

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Speaker 1: they have done their best with, that they've attempted to

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Speaker 1: take care of all of these years, and they are

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Speaker 1: just super saturated with But can you imagine not being

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Speaker 1: able to see that what you're seeing is your lifeless

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Speaker 1: baby and you're trying at every turn to breathe life

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Speaker 1: back into them. And she even went so far as

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Speaker 1: to say that she flung the knife aside. So here

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Speaker 1: we have this mother that is bearing witness to this.

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Speaker 1: She wraps her hand around the handle of that knife

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Speaker 1: that's buried to the hilt in this baby's neck, and

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Speaker 1: she throws it to the side because she knows that

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Speaker 1: this is what's created the injury, and she's trying to

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Speaker 1: revive her daughter. And she was able to call nine

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Speaker 1: to eleven, but by this time, Dave, it's too late.

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Speaker 1: I would imagine that considering these injuries, Dave, that the

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Speaker 1: child had little or no blood left.

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Speaker 2: In her body.

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Speaker 1: There are certain things that stay with you when you

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Speaker 1: see the dead, because those elements, beyond the trauma that

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Speaker 1: maybe they sustained, it gives you an insight into their life,

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Speaker 1: the life that had previously been vital, that was being lived.

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Speaker 1: And in Martha Gooseman's case, life rest in her fingernails.

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Speaker 1: And I know that sounds like an odd comment, but

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Speaker 1: for those of you that are parents of young girls,

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Speaker 1: they cross over this threshold, you know, where they're no

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Speaker 1: longer babies. They're your baby. You don't want them to

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Speaker 1: grow up, but they have this desire to paint their fingernails.

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Speaker 1: I remember when my daughter was that age, and the

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Speaker 1: first time I saw her with painting fingernails, I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: oh Lord help me. But you know, with Martha, her

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Speaker 1: fingernails were painted green. It was a color that she chose.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps maybe her mom sat down with her and said,

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Speaker 1: maybe I'm going to give you a manicure, and maybe

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Speaker 1: she decided to paint her fingernails for the first time,

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Speaker 1: or maybe Martha got the green fingernail polish and said,

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Speaker 1: when mom comes home, I'm going to show her what

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Speaker 1: I did. But there they were, and the medical examiner

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Speaker 1: actually examined those fingernails and made note of it in

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Speaker 1: their autopsy report.

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Speaker 3: When looking at this, I think about mom coming in shocked,

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00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 3: she grabs a knife right out of her daughter's neck

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Speaker 3: throws it. Does that actually damage the injury when you're

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Speaker 3: trying to figure out what happened to place it all together,

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Speaker 3: because I know you kind of have to put together

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Speaker 3: a timeline of the injuries and removing it like that,

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Speaker 3: does that cause problems later?

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Speaker 1: It's an excellent question. Our preference would be a weapon

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Speaker 1: stay in place, because what that does for us is

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Speaker 1: that we and I say us, in the medical legal community,

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Speaker 1: as horrific as this is, the body would come in

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Speaker 1: to medical Examiner's office in this case down in Dade

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Speaker 1: County and you would, ideally you would like to take

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Speaker 1: an X ray. And we've talked about X rays before,

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Speaker 1: but just so people understand again, you take what are

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Speaker 1: called ap which is straight on looking down on the body,

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Speaker 1: and then you take lateral, which is self explanatory. You

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Speaker 1: take one from the side, and if you take those

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Speaker 1: X rays you can get an idea of the position

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Speaker 1: of the weapon in the neck and the angle of

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Speaker 1: the weapon as well, and if you remove it, you

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Speaker 1: can do damage. If I were to pose that question

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Speaker 1: to that mother at that moment in tom she would

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Speaker 1: probably say, you and your evidentiary evidence can both go

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Speaker 1: to hell. I don't care. I wan want to, and

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Speaker 1: she was doing what she had to do, and there's

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Speaker 1: no excuse. Many times when Paul I've been on scenes

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Speaker 1: where police have done this, they should know better. And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't as an attempt to save somebody's life. And

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Speaker 1: even in life, you leave it if the person is

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Speaker 1: still living and breathing. They say a surgeons say, don't

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Speaker 1: remove the item because you're gonna do more damage. But

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00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 1: in this particular case, you know, you got to work

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Speaker 1: with what you have.

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Speaker 3: From the standpoint mom at two twenty eight, now we

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00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,919
Speaker 3: know this attack took place, and at thirty minute window

337
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 3: the arrival of the murderer, we know the exit of

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Speaker 3: the murderer. I'm praying Joe that this little girl that

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00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 3: she was knocked unconscious or something. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: there's a way to find that out, but I hope

341
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Speaker 3: in my heart of hearts that somehow this little girl

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Speaker 3: didn't have to just put I hope he wasn't terrorizing her.

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Speaker 3: Do we have any indication from the injury sustained. I

344
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Speaker 3: know we've got multiple injuries. One I know we had

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Speaker 3: an injury to a wrist that he tried to stage

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Speaker 3: to make it look like she was cutting a wrist,

347
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Speaker 3: but it went all the way to the bone. But

348
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Speaker 3: my question, is it possible to determine when death occurred

349
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Speaker 3: or when a lack of consciousness began.

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Speaker 1: That's really hard to determine because these hemorrhages, most of

351
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Speaker 1: them had the exception of the wrist, these injuries had

352
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,520
Speaker 1: in dwelling hemorrhage, which is an indication that she was

353
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Speaker 1: alive for a period of time. And here's one more

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00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 1: thing that's quite revealing as well. When the perpetrator was

355
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Speaker 1: arrested Lobo. When he was arrested, he had scratches on

356
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Speaker 1: his face and those green fingernails I mentioned they come

357
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,959
Speaker 1: into play in this particular case. Because it's great that

358
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Speaker 1: you've got this CCTV footage, particularly from a timing standpoint,

359
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 1: I don't know in recent memory, if I recall a

360
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 1: case where you have it this tight. We're talking about

361
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Speaker 1: thirty minute window, and that's pretty significant in these case.

362
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 1: You know, all these cases we coverage, sometimes that window

363
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,199
Speaker 1: is gigantic and it's hard to whittle it down. But

364
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 1: in this particular case, you got thirty minute window where

365
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 1: this was all perpetrated and you see him going in,

366
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,399
Speaker 1: you see him coming out. So not only do you

367
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 1: have that digital footprint, but also you've got a dynamic

368
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,080
Speaker 1: here where this precious little angel is fighting back for

369
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Speaker 1: her life. And remember what we said, six foot four

370
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Speaker 1: day six two hundred and twenty pounds and this maybe

371
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Speaker 1: sixty pounds. She fought so much that she scratched him.

372
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Speaker 1: And when they did the examination on her at the morgue,

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Speaker 1: the me did the nail clippings, which is what we do.

374
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Speaker 1: We clipped the nails and we scraped the nails, and

375
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Speaker 1: when they did that, they found skin cells beneath her nails,

376
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Speaker 1: and I would imagine there were some RBC's or red

377
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 1: blood cells as well, and from that they were able

378
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 1: to take a swab from him and compare the DNA

379
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 1: that was beneath her fingernails and that that they have

380
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 1: in that known sample. Because you have to have you

381
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 1: have an unknown you compare it to a known and

382
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: they required him to give a DNA sample and it

383
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 1: married up. So there's a very difficult time that the

384
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Speaker 1: defense would have in this particular case of marrying these

385
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 1: two things or trying to dismiss them, okay, because the

386
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 1: physical evidence is so very overwhelming in this case.

387
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Speaker 3: Well, there was one thing that was said, and they

388
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 3: talked about her injuries included several stabbing through her throat.

389
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 3: There was what is called a knife scrape that were found.

390
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 3: Again the little girl's four feet tall. Okay, what is

391
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 3: a knife scrape?

392
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Speaker 1: Well, a scrape is where it literally means this. It's

393
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 1: where the knife is drug across the skin and it

394
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 1: can also you can find knife scrapes and tool marks

395
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: like on the floor and it will marry up to this. Now,

396
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 1: you can use this as a means of terrorizing somebody, Okay,

397
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 1: whether you're applying it to the surface of their skin.

398
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 1: I've seen people take knives that were so tightly pressed

399
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 1: against the surface of the skin that it leaves a

400
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: slight abrasion there because it's being pressed down so tightly.

401
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 1: Then you can threaten and terrorize people by taking a

402
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: knife and scraping it across the surface. Say, if you

403
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 1: have her pin down in a particular position, remember you've

404
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 1: got this hulking form that's on top of her. But

405
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: you know what's really kind of in this case, Dave,

406
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: is that these post mortem injuries that came about on

407
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: her body relative to her wrist, most people equate the

408
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: slicing of the wrist with a self inflicted injury. And

409
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 1: that's where we go back to this idea of self

410
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 1: harm and these sorts of things that she was alleged

411
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: to have been engaging in in life by Lobos. Our

412
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: wrist if you just consider everybody, look at your wrist

413
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: right now, and you can actually see your tendons move.

414
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: If you just you're looking at the palmer aspect of

415
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: your hands, if you flex them back and forth, you

416
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: can see your tendons move just beneath the surface of

417
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: the skin. They act as pulleys, and they actuate several

418
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: movements within our hands. And one of the things that

419
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: are actuated here is our ability to grip. So if

420
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 1: you think about gripping a knife or a spoon or

421
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: a fork or whatever, once those tendons are sliced, you

422
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 1: don't have that ability to to facilitate that any longer

423
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: the physical ability has left you. So if you're trying

424
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: to convince me, and I'm using the universal, you not you, Dave.

425
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: But if you're using the universal, if you're a defendant

426
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: and you're trying to convince me that, yeah, she sliced

427
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: her wrist and then oh, by the way, she took

428
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: the knife and stabbed herself several times and then buried

429
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 1: it in her throat. You're gonna have to go a

430
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: long way to sell me that, because that's not what

431
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: the case was. And as it turned out, he inflicted

432
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 1: those wounds on her wrist after he had killed her

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00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: to give the impression and I quote impression that she

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00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 1: had done this to herself if things were not bad

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00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 1: enough in this particular case. It took nine long years

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00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: to get a conviction in this case, with as much

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00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: evidence as they had pointing to Miguil ruiz Lobo, but finally,

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00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: as of May first, twenty twenty three, he was convicted

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00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: and a week later he was sentenced to life terms

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00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: in prison. If you are anyone in your family, friends,

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00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: whoever it might be, are dealing with domestic abuse, you

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00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: need to reach out. You need to get help. There's

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00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,479
Speaker 1: a phone number you can call. It's one eight hundred

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00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 1: seven nine nine Safe sa FE. There are people there

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00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 1: at the National Domestic Violence Hotline that can help you. Again,

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00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: that number is one eight hundred seven ninety nine Safe

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00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 1: seven two three three. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this

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00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: is Bodybags