Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both.
Speaker 1: American politics has long served as inspiration for movies, plays,
Speaker 1: and especially television, from shows like The West Wing, Madam Secretary,
Speaker 1: or Veep, all of which I really enjoyed, to late
Speaker 1: night comedy shows, and for a lot of people, shows
Speaker 1: like those have become a major source of information when
Speaker 1: it comes to our government, our political system, and even
Speaker 1: the state of the world. You know. In fact, when
Speaker 1: I was Secretary of State and I was visiting Myanmar
Speaker 1: formerly Burma, and I went to their first gathering of
Speaker 1: people who were part of their parliament congress, I was
Speaker 1: told that a lot of them had learned about politics,
Speaker 1: you know, not from reading books, but watching The West Wing.
Speaker 1: So this has a big impact on how people think
Speaker 1: about politics and government, and that's why I wanted to
Speaker 1: explore all of it on today's show. So I'll be
Speaker 1: talking to three people known for playing politics on TV
Speaker 1: because they have played politicians or talked about politicians, and
Speaker 1: it's clear their influence extends well beyond their audience. We'll
Speaker 1: hear from Carrie Washington, who is every bit as much
Speaker 1: of a political Powerhouse as her fictional character Olivia Pope
Speaker 1: on Scandal, and I'll be talking to Alec Baldwin, who
Speaker 1: has finally been able to retire from playing Donald Trump
Speaker 1: on Saturday Night Live. But first, I am so delighted
Speaker 1: to be speaking with Samantha By. Like a lot of people,
Speaker 1: I first started watching Samantha By during her time as
Speaker 1: a correspondent on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, and
Speaker 1: in she started her own show, Full Front Told with
Speaker 1: Samantha By on TBS. I really like her biting, hilarious
Speaker 1: interviews and commentaries on topics that don't get nearly enough
Speaker 1: coverage in the usual news cycle, you know, ones like
Speaker 1: voting rights, or women's health or the importance of reigning
Speaker 1: in big tech. These days, Samantha, her husband, and her
Speaker 1: three kids are waiting out the pandemic in New York City,
Speaker 1: and I am so happy to have her on this podcast. Hello, Hello,
Speaker 1: oh Samantha, I'm so happy to see you. I am thrilled.
Speaker 1: How are you and your family holding up under the pandemic? Well,
Speaker 1: thank you for asking. I don't know. Well, let's talk
Speaker 1: about it two years from now and see where we
Speaker 1: are mentally. I mean I'm very grateful nobody in our
Speaker 1: immediate circle was ill. I think we're all like, emotionally
Speaker 1: in the same place everyone else is in. We're so
Speaker 1: ready for this to be over and try to get
Speaker 1: back to something resembling quote normal life. My kids are
Speaker 1: in the New York City public school system, and they
Speaker 1: have not been in school for so long. You know,
Speaker 1: my eldest daughter occasionally will go for a very socially distant,
Speaker 1: cold weather masked walk with her friends. But all of
Speaker 1: my young son's friends are immuno compromised in some way,
Speaker 1: or they live with an elderly relative, so he hasn't
Speaker 1: seen another boy his age since March last year. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's crazy. That is so hard. I think you're right
Speaker 1: on point in saying that we're not going to know
Speaker 1: for a couple of years what all of the costs are.
Speaker 1: We obviously know now more than five hundred thousands people
Speaker 1: have died, which is not to even mention the probably
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands more people who died and was never
Speaker 1: attributed to COVID, and the millions of millions and millions
Speaker 1: of millions of people who got so ill and disrupted
Speaker 1: their lives and their work and they're everything. It's so
Speaker 1: it's devastating, and it's one of those I'm incandescitely angry about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well you're good at incandescent anger. I know throughout the pandemic,
Speaker 1: you've you've continued to, you know, try to do the show.
Speaker 1: I guess you were off for a while, but then
Speaker 1: you came back. Yes, well we didn't actually take that
Speaker 1: much time off. We took only really one show off
Speaker 1: of the calendar. Wow, Because well, I was born in
Speaker 1: Canada and I was raised there, and I am, if
Speaker 1: nothing else, very pragmatic, Like I have a staff of
Speaker 1: about sixty five to seventy people, and for that reason,
Speaker 1: and my husband and I really wanted to get the
Speaker 1: show back on the air as fast as possible, just
Speaker 1: to put like a point of focus on our own week,
Speaker 1: but also on the weeks of all the people who
Speaker 1: work at Full Frontal. Just to have one thing to do,
Speaker 1: to have one thing to be able to say, like,
Speaker 1: I have a mission this week, I thought would be
Speaker 1: really critical. So we worked so hard to get the
Speaker 1: show up and in action as quickly as possible. You know,
Speaker 1: it's such a typical hard working woman's commitment to say
Speaker 1: I'm going back, I'll multitask, I'll be there very much. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: very much like doing this podcast. You know, we took
Speaker 1: a little break where it started a little later. I'm like, great,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go do the dishes, like exactly. You're always
Speaker 1: there's never really a moment where you just sit and
Speaker 1: stare into space. You know, your show, it's it's almost
Speaker 1: hard to believe now started during the election cycle. I remembered, well,
Speaker 1: and honestly, I don't know how someone with your intelligence
Speaker 1: and point of view really got through the last four
Speaker 1: years because you had to cope with this you know
Speaker 1: phenomenon Donald Trump. I don't know how any of us
Speaker 1: really made it through, to be perfectly honest, yourself especially,
Speaker 1: I don't know how we did it. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't think that we ever got used to it.
Speaker 1: It wasn't what we wanted. I definitely, you know, I
Speaker 1: deflected this question a lot, which was like, but aren't
Speaker 1: you secretly happy because it gives you so much to
Speaker 1: talk about on your show? And I was like, trust me,
Speaker 1: there's lots to talk about other than this person. And
Speaker 1: so you know now that we're trying to build the
Speaker 1: show without the looming specter of that person and that
Speaker 1: administration lurching behind us the way that he lurched behind
Speaker 1: you on the stage. You know, we have a full
Speaker 1: slate of stories that we're doing. There's lots to cover,
Speaker 1: there's so many stones to overturn, and and we're approaching
Speaker 1: it really joyfully. Oh that's good. Clearly a lot of
Speaker 1: people get their news from all kinds of sources, but
Speaker 1: one of the sources is comedy shows like yours, and
Speaker 1: you regularly on like some tackle serious issues that you
Speaker 1: clearly feel a sense of urgency about. You tackle family separation,
Speaker 1: you know, me to equal pay and and lots more.
Speaker 1: And how do you balance that? I think difficult role
Speaker 1: of being both a source of comedy and a source
Speaker 1: of information. First of all, I have an incredible team
Speaker 1: and a lot of bona fide journalists on my team,
Speaker 1: and a really strong adherence to research, commitment to getting
Speaker 1: the story straight. Actually, I have a brain that doesn't
Speaker 1: remember names. Like, if you ask me who my biggest
Speaker 1: influences are, I can never remember the right person, and
Speaker 1: then two hours later I go, oh my god, it
Speaker 1: was her the whole time. I never am so bad
Speaker 1: at that, But I actually was really trying to pin
Speaker 1: it down the other day and I was like, right,
Speaker 1: it's like my show is like this weird intersection of
Speaker 1: like sixty minutes segments that I really love, and also
Speaker 1: Jon Stewart, you know, and my years at the Daily Show,
Speaker 1: but also Howard Stern. Like those three influences, if combined,
Speaker 1: have a love of news and a real love of
Speaker 1: great journalism from my early childhood, honestly, and I also
Speaker 1: love comedy, and so the intersection of those worlds it's
Speaker 1: just the sweet spot where I like to live. Tell
Speaker 1: me about one of the episodes you're most proud of. Well,
Speaker 1: as I've stated, I can't ever remember anything that I've
Speaker 1: ever really done, I would say that one of the
Speaker 1: episodes I'm most proud of relates to you. I think
Speaker 1: I'm very proud that we made an episode the day
Speaker 1: after the election, And believe me, it took a lot
Speaker 1: because we were destroyed, um shocked, up hauled. I mean, like,
Speaker 1: who am I talking to right now? But it was
Speaker 1: obviously was an earthquake, and then we were expected to
Speaker 1: go and make jokes, and we had this loon drop
Speaker 1: planned and we had Lizzo was on a private jet
Speaker 1: to the studio to sing an awesome song about feeling great.
Speaker 1: We were all peers and retreating into our turtlenecks, and
Speaker 1: people on staff with family members in Iran, We're like,
Speaker 1: I'm never going to see my family again. Like so,
Speaker 1: I'm really proud that we dusted it off and did
Speaker 1: a show. I'm proud of our show about family separation
Speaker 1: and multiple shows. I'm proud of our coverage of the
Speaker 1: Me Too movement. I'm really proud of the people that
Speaker 1: I work with. They're just great. Well. But it also
Speaker 1: I think added to this whole sense of protecting democracy,
Speaker 1: protecting the vulnerable and the marginalized, standing up to all
Speaker 1: these forces that came out from under all the rocks
Speaker 1: that were kicked over, and perhaps on a more shallow note,
Speaker 1: it is also nice, well, okay, on an shallow note,
Speaker 1: I'm happy to have planted a flag in history and
Speaker 1: said I'm on this side. This is where we stand,
Speaker 1: and we think this is an abomination and we're just
Speaker 1: gonna park it right here, and we're just going to
Speaker 1: keep saying that until it's over. And this is the
Speaker 1: shallow part. I'm really happy to be on the correct
Speaker 1: side of Ted Cruise. Yes, we've gone hard on Ted
Speaker 1: Cruise over the years on the show, and it feels
Speaker 1: great to be so right. Sometimes you just have to
Speaker 1: bathe in that golden glow. Yeah, you've earned a place
Speaker 1: there and you should just keep under that bright light
Speaker 1: of vindication. But the other thing you've done, which of
Speaker 1: course I pay particular attention to, is you've been quite
Speaker 1: brave and stepping up and saying, wait a minute, it's
Speaker 1: not just what the politicians are doing. It's the way
Speaker 1: the media covers what they're doing. But when you go
Speaker 1: after the media, of which you are a part, how
Speaker 1: does that work out? You actually have to be very
Speaker 1: thoughtful about it. We're a part of the media ecosystem,
Speaker 1: and we can't make everyone in the media mad at us,
Speaker 1: or then they won't cover our show. So that's a
Speaker 1: really serious part of our internal conversations. It's like, how
Speaker 1: do we talk about Facebook when we're promoting our show
Speaker 1: on Facebook? And ultimately, we have taken really I think
Speaker 1: we've taken really big swings, and I'm proud that we
Speaker 1: stick to our guns. I definitely experienced. You know, I
Speaker 1: can't believe I'm bringing it up because they don't often
Speaker 1: choose to bring it up. But when I had my
Speaker 1: biggest controversy when I used a slur against Ivanka Trump,
Speaker 1: I really had a moment where I just I felt
Speaker 1: like I walked through fire. I felt like I walked
Speaker 1: over hot coals and came out on the other side
Speaker 1: with a deep understanding of how a big story can
Speaker 1: just be totally obfuscated by a small medium moment of
Speaker 1: a lady calling another lady a bad thing when what
Speaker 1: we were really talking about was family separation, Like, the
Speaker 1: story became what I had said versus the story that
Speaker 1: I was trying to cover, And for about a week,
Speaker 1: the story in the media was what a shame that,
Speaker 1: you know, the use of the slur took away from
Speaker 1: that story about family separation. What a shame. And I
Speaker 1: was like, you're the media, that's right, you're supposed to
Speaker 1: cover the other thing. That's not myum a comedy lady, like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about this. It's not comedic.
Speaker 1: Where our hearts are broken right now, it's your job
Speaker 1: to go, oh, that was a thing, But what was
Speaker 1: she really talking? Right, we should be focusing on family
Speaker 1: separation seven until it's remedied. But you know what happened
Speaker 1: to you as you just described, it shows part of
Speaker 1: a much bigger pattern, which is how easy it is
Speaker 1: to deflect the so called mainstream media away from underlying stories.
Speaker 1: They're so easily distracted. We see it all the time.
Speaker 1: And there was a public appetite too for that kind
Speaker 1: of distraction. I mean, I do worry that we all
Speaker 1: maybe have the attention span of goldfish. It's really really
Speaker 1: hard work to stay focused on stories that no one
Speaker 1: wants to talk about. Well, is there some story looking
Speaker 1: back now four years ago that you thought is the
Speaker 1: most important, untold or undertold story from the Trump era? Yes?
Speaker 1: I mean the answer is yes, times ten thousand. His
Speaker 1: international business dealings is just a story that did not
Speaker 1: grip people. You know, Adam Davidson was doing like incredible
Speaker 1: reporting at The New Yorker about his business ties in
Speaker 1: Azerbaijan and internationally that are fascinating, and just a ball
Speaker 1: of tangled wire to unferral his tax dealings, his relationships
Speaker 1: to known money launderers, like all of those stories just
Speaker 1: nothing stuck. I agree with you, But when thinking about
Speaker 1: these last four years as you've chronicled them, I think
Speaker 1: it's important to ask how close do you think we
Speaker 1: came to really losing our democracy to you know, seeing
Speaker 1: changes that we're almost becoming irreversible. I think we came
Speaker 1: much too close to another Trump victory. Honestly, when as
Speaker 1: I say it out loud as we're talking about it,
Speaker 1: I did start to sweat. There is an enormous number
Speaker 1: of people who said yes to more of that, and
Speaker 1: that I find so scary and so daunting. So I
Speaker 1: think we came really close, and I think we are
Speaker 1: still close. Listen, I think people are generally and I
Speaker 1: still say this after five years of doing the show.
Speaker 1: They think people are generally good. We're a nation of
Speaker 1: really great people. We can do it, but it takes
Speaker 1: so much work, and so does I do worry a
Speaker 1: little bit that we're going to kind of come out
Speaker 1: of the pandemic into the roaring twenties again and being
Speaker 1: really loosen, we're great colors and Peppy's leaves and start
Speaker 1: partying and kind of forget about the underlying meat on
Speaker 1: the bone of keeping this work going. I think you're
Speaker 1: so right to point that out, because that's what happened
Speaker 1: after the so called Spanish Flu. We went into the
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, the Roaring nineteen twenties, and I mean, I
Speaker 1: want people to roar again, the economy to roar again.
Speaker 1: But I do want people, as you rightly say, Samantha,
Speaker 1: to think about what we went through. I can't thank
Speaker 1: you enough for what you do all the time. You
Speaker 1: really try to help us all understand better what we're
Speaker 1: going through. Well, the feeling is very mutual, my friend.
Speaker 1: I hope your kids get to have a play date sometimes.
Speaker 1: I hope they get to go back to school sometime.
Speaker 1: The same for your grandkids. I hope they get to
Speaker 1: meet other kids. Happy novel. They're all like a bunch
Speaker 1: of little you know, Martian aliens coming to gather for
Speaker 1: the first time. You're just going to play the mirror game.
Speaker 1: What are you? What are you? Where have you been? Oh? Samantha,
Speaker 1: thank you so much and please keep going. We need you.
Speaker 1: Thank you. You can catch Samantha Wednesday nights on TBS,
Speaker 1: and you can also hear from her on her podcast
Speaker 1: Full Release with Samantha B. Now I'm getting to talk
Speaker 1: to Carrie Washington. She's an actor, producer, director. She runs
Speaker 1: her own production company called Simpson Street. I first became
Speaker 1: aware of her certainly on Scandal, literally couldn't take my
Speaker 1: eyes off of her because of her grace and her
Speaker 1: power on the screen and in real life. She's a
Speaker 1: dedicated advocate on behalf of racial justice, voting rights, democracy,
Speaker 1: and so much more. So. Welcome. I'm so happy you're
Speaker 1: with us, Carrie, Thank you, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: having me. I want to talk about your amazing career
Speaker 1: and the fabulous roles you've played, but I want to
Speaker 1: start on the activism side, because I think you and
Speaker 1: I share a sense of urgency. Last year, you joined
Speaker 1: the Black Voices for Black just As Fund as a
Speaker 1: co chair, and you ended up helping to distribute over
Speaker 1: one and a half million dollars to black leaders fighting
Speaker 1: for a more fair, equitable, anti racist America. What does
Speaker 1: that work mean to you. I'm really proud to be
Speaker 1: a co chair for the fund because one of my superpowers,
Speaker 1: because of how lucky I've been in my career, is
Speaker 1: that people pay attention to the things I'm doing or saying,
Speaker 1: whether I like it or not, whether you know, whether
Speaker 1: it's like pop Rozzi following me around when I'm pregnant
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. For some reason, I have eyeballs
Speaker 1: on me at times, and so to be able to
Speaker 1: shift the as eyeballs and resources to activists on the
Speaker 1: ground who are doing the day to day work of
Speaker 1: ending racism, working towards equity, working towards liberation for all people.
Speaker 1: I'm so passionate about that. I wanted to talk to
Speaker 1: you not only because of you know, the great roles
Speaker 1: you've played and your success, but because you feel so
Speaker 1: deeply that this work is critical to your life, the
Speaker 1: lives of your children, and to our country. Yeah. We
Speaker 1: produced a project this year at Simpson Street called The Fight.
Speaker 1: It's a documentary about the a c l U. I
Speaker 1: think this film is the thing I'm most proud of
Speaker 1: in my career today, which is so funny because it's
Speaker 1: the one project where I'm not on camera right, but
Speaker 1: it's um. I love this film so much because we
Speaker 1: had unprecedented access into the a c l U. And
Speaker 1: I don't have to tell you the a c l
Speaker 1: U has sued every administration in the last one years. Democrat, Republican,
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. They are invested in defending the human rights
Speaker 1: of all people. And so we got to be the
Speaker 1: trenches with these lawyers and get to know them. For
Speaker 1: the superheroes that they are defending justice, but also we
Speaker 1: got to go home with them, so we got to
Speaker 1: see them, you know, trying to keep their kids quiet
Speaker 1: while they're on a zoom call and losing, you know,
Speaker 1: being afraid that they're not going to be able to
Speaker 1: hear the Supreme Court decision because they can't find their
Speaker 1: charger for their cell phone. Right Like, we got to
Speaker 1: to just see them as everyday people. And one of
Speaker 1: the things that we really like to do at the
Speaker 1: company is figure out how to upend otherness. Right Like,
Speaker 1: there is this paradigm and culture that a certain kind
Speaker 1: of person is the hero of the story, the hero
Speaker 1: of of our legends are sort of shared cultural stories,
Speaker 1: and that there are other people who get to play
Speaker 1: supporting roles and characters. And traditionally women have been in
Speaker 1: the supporting role, and people of color have been in
Speaker 1: the supporting role, the wife, the best friend, and that
Speaker 1: the heroes have been you know, straight white, cis gender men.
Speaker 1: And so we really like the idea of up ending
Speaker 1: that idea that each of us is at the center
Speaker 1: of our own story in real life and in our
Speaker 1: shared narratives. Well, you really upended a lot of those,
Speaker 1: uh preconceptions. With Scandal, where you played Olivia Pope, everyone
Speaker 1: knows that alter ego a powerful black woman with a
Speaker 1: prominent position in Washington, and I think you really helped
Speaker 1: to change the entertainment world and the discussion about whose
Speaker 1: story is worth telling. And although this was a fictional character,
Speaker 1: it was still something that gripped the imagination of millions
Speaker 1: of people looking back on that. How do you feel
Speaker 1: about Olivia Pope and Scandal now? You know, I think
Speaker 1: a lot about the history of Scandal now that I'm
Speaker 1: out of it. I think when I was in it,
Speaker 1: it was such a whirlwind. You know, it's hard to
Speaker 1: have perspective about these big historic moments while they're unfolding.
Speaker 1: But you know, when when our show for aired, people
Speaker 1: talked about how much of a quote unquote risk it
Speaker 1: was for the network to center a black woman as
Speaker 1: the lead of a network drama. And it hadn't happened
Speaker 1: in I think thirty eight years at the time, almost
Speaker 1: forty years, and I was in my early thirties, so
Speaker 1: in my lifetime, I hadn't seen it. And I just
Speaker 1: remember the pressure, the pressure, the expectations of like you
Speaker 1: have to succeed. I felt like, if our show didn't
Speaker 1: make it, it would be another forty years before a
Speaker 1: woman of color. You yeah, you, I felt it. But
Speaker 1: what was thrilling was not because we were so great.
Speaker 1: We worked really hard on that show, but because audiences
Speaker 1: showed up. Audiences turned on their televisions, they recorded us
Speaker 1: on their DVR, they talked about us on social media.
Speaker 1: We became a success, which allowed for other women of color.
Speaker 1: Panco Chopra had to show. Viola Davis had a show
Speaker 1: and made history winning the Emmy, like you know, Empire,
Speaker 1: all of these other show was that centered black women
Speaker 1: because suddenly it wasn't a risk, Suddenly we were approven
Speaker 1: deal exactly. It changed the landscape of who we believe
Speaker 1: deserves to be at the center of stories on network television. Well,
Speaker 1: when you're talking about how long it had been, I
Speaker 1: couldn't help but think about Cecily Tyson, who we just
Speaker 1: recently lost, and she was someone who I admired from
Speaker 1: a distance. I remember Sounder. I remember Miss Jane Pittman
Speaker 1: and Miss Jane Pittman was a one hour long TV movie.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, exactly, and I remember when I saw
Speaker 1: it all those years ago, probably before you were born.
Speaker 1: I was so struck by how what should have been
Speaker 1: a breakthrough back then, you know, kind of went silent,
Speaker 1: and then it had to be done all over again.
Speaker 1: And one of the challenges will be making sure it
Speaker 1: doesn't revert back. I just love her. I won't even
Speaker 1: say loved. I love her so so so much. I
Speaker 1: have all these connections to her. She was at my
Speaker 1: baby shower from my Isabel. She and Diane Carroll Um
Speaker 1: and Jane Fonda, all my kind of like Hollywood goddess
Speaker 1: mentors um. But I was born on the night of
Speaker 1: the last episode of Roots. Oh my gosh. That funny.
Speaker 1: And I know that because my dad was not in
Speaker 1: the delivery room. He was in the waiting room with
Speaker 1: the nurses watching the final episode of My mother was like,
Speaker 1: where is everybody? It's a very famous story in our family.
Speaker 1: We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. You know.
Speaker 1: You have taken on so many roles, but one very
Speaker 1: moving performance was when you played Anita Hill in the
Speaker 1: movie Confirmation about her incredibly brave testimony during Clarence Thomas's
Speaker 1: confirmation hearings in did you meet her when you were
Speaker 1: making the movie? I did tell me about that. She
Speaker 1: was so generous with sharing her experience with me, and
Speaker 1: I'll be forever grateful because it's a real responsibility. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's funny. Cecily Tyson talked about this a lot, the
Speaker 1: responsibility of sort of playing characters with dignity, and with
Speaker 1: Anita Hill, there's no way not to. She's such a
Speaker 1: person of grace and elegance, and even her fierce courage
Speaker 1: came cloaked in her elegant dignity at all times. So
Speaker 1: I really I loved having the opportunity to play her.
Speaker 1: But I also really loved producing that material right because
Speaker 1: it allowed me to have a real voice at the
Speaker 1: table about what her experience was like as a black woman,
Speaker 1: to make sure that there was authent the city there.
Speaker 1: And also she and I had a great laugh because
Speaker 1: when I shot that scene of the Senate hearing, I
Speaker 1: got to experience what she felt of being this black
Speaker 1: woman facing a sea of powerful white men sitting above her,
Speaker 1: looking down on her, just like attacking her with questions
Speaker 1: at times. The twist from what she did and what
Speaker 1: I did thirty years later was that now all of
Speaker 1: those white men were actually working for me, and so
Speaker 1: I got to sort of live in the emotional tumult
Speaker 1: that she experienced. But when we called cut, I was
Speaker 1: in charge, and we we really sort of laughed about
Speaker 1: how wonderful that was that I could honor her in
Speaker 1: that way. Well, you're so right about that elegant dignity.
Speaker 1: She withstood such a brutal, consistent attack on her character
Speaker 1: and her veracity, and you know, it did trigger a reaction,
Speaker 1: you know, the women of the House marched over to
Speaker 1: the Senate. Changes were made, women were elected. But I
Speaker 1: could not help thinking about her during the Brett Kavanaugh
Speaker 1: confirmation hearings because I thought about how controlled and careful
Speaker 1: she had been when she was being attacked. And then
Speaker 1: we saw Christine blazie Ford feeling, you know, very pained
Speaker 1: because they wouldn't believe her, and I thought, you know,
Speaker 1: these two women decades apart, telling their truth in their
Speaker 1: own way, and they're both being disrespected. I really thought
Speaker 1: a lot about Anita Hill, Professor Hill, in that moment too,
Speaker 1: because the attack on her, just like the attack on
Speaker 1: Christine Blasie Ford, was concocted so that Clarence Thomas, who
Speaker 1: I went to lost gool with, I have known a
Speaker 1: very long time. Wow. And the reactions that he and
Speaker 1: Kavanaugh both had were deliberately absolutely intended to spark indignation
Speaker 1: and outrage. I mean, the whole thing was just, you know,
Speaker 1: heartbreaking to me, because you know, you'd hope that things
Speaker 1: would have changed more than they did, given how brave
Speaker 1: you know, those women were to come forward to do
Speaker 1: what they thought of as you know, their duty. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I spoke to Anita a lot in that period. I
Speaker 1: remember calling her and checking on her, and one of
Speaker 1: the things that I thought a lot about was, these
Speaker 1: are the moments that invite us to realize that we
Speaker 1: don't get to check out right, these are the moments
Speaker 1: that pull us back in. We don't get to act
Speaker 1: like this is ancient history, exactly that misogyny is ancient history.
Speaker 1: And also these moments provide us with an opportunity to
Speaker 1: see that there are systems in place, that this is
Speaker 1: not about personalities, This is not about individuals, This is systematic.
Speaker 1: I just think it's so important for us to to
Speaker 1: hold that and to somehow like to somehow keep working
Speaker 1: for change, right, to somehow keep saying yes, well. I
Speaker 1: also think there has to be a way of using storytelling,
Speaker 1: which is what you're an expert at in helping us
Speaker 1: craft a news story that welcomes everybody in. But people
Speaker 1: have to be willing to ask hard questions of themselves
Speaker 1: and you know, of their own view of reality. And
Speaker 1: of course that's become infinitely harder because of social media,
Speaker 1: which traps people in these very divided, you know, Fox realities.
Speaker 1: How would you even think about that, because you're a storyteller,
Speaker 1: you're a producer of stories. How would we try to
Speaker 1: think of a broader basis for such a an effort.
Speaker 1: I think a big part of it is again inviting
Speaker 1: people to understand that they are the hero of their story,
Speaker 1: because I think we get involved, even in politics, maybe
Speaker 1: especially in politics, in this hero worship where we place
Speaker 1: the power for change in the hand of this person
Speaker 1: that we have idolized, and we expect other people to
Speaker 1: fix our problems, and so our stories get corrupted by
Speaker 1: the idea that we don't have agency, that people that
Speaker 1: look like us, walk like us, talk like us, are
Speaker 1: in fact us, that we can't make the change. I mean,
Speaker 1: I remember waking up the morning after the election in
Speaker 1: and my social media was flooded with Olivia Pope. You
Speaker 1: have to fix this, Olivia, I wish you could to day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: me too. At the time, saved the day, and I
Speaker 1: remember thinking like, oh, this is actually part of the problem, right,
Speaker 1: because so many people sat out because somebody else was
Speaker 1: supposed to do the work. Somebody else was going to vote,
Speaker 1: somebody else was going to knock on doors, somebody else
Speaker 1: was going to make it better. And I remember thinking like, Okay,
Speaker 1: how do I and it really sort of galvanized my activism.
Speaker 1: How do I get people to understand that Olivia Pope
Speaker 1: is not a real person, that that you, each person,
Speaker 1: each one of you that just tweeted that you have
Speaker 1: infinitely more power than Olivia Pope because you can vote,
Speaker 1: you can volunteer, you can fill out your senses, you
Speaker 1: can actually make a difference in your community. And so
Speaker 1: getting our stories to be rooted in the idea of
Speaker 1: our power as people to impact our communities positively, I
Speaker 1: think that is really import and yes, we need great leaders,
Speaker 1: but I think our greatest leaders are the ones who
Speaker 1: look back to us and say, I'm here to represent you.
Speaker 1: The power is yours, I am your voice. Just that
Speaker 1: like constant willingness to center the people and to make
Speaker 1: the people the solution instead of those small number of heroes.
Speaker 1: I agree with that completely. You know, for months after
Speaker 1: that election, I had a steady stream of people, mostly
Speaker 1: young women, coming up and apologizing, often bursting into tears.
Speaker 1: I didn't know you needed my vote. I didn't know
Speaker 1: you needed my help. I felt like I was I
Speaker 1: was supposed to be giving absolution. It was the strangest experience.
Speaker 1: But out of that, at least we saw first and
Speaker 1: and then we saw again in I think the number
Speaker 1: of people who understood that they did have not only
Speaker 1: an opportunity but a responsibility for me. Really, in the
Speaker 1: advocacy and activism space, it's so much is about centering
Speaker 1: other heroes, right, like centering not centering myself. Like even
Speaker 1: on the campaign trail, not saying like you should vote
Speaker 1: for Biden and Harris because I'm Carrie Washington, and I
Speaker 1: tell you to know, like, it's not about that. It's like,
Speaker 1: you have the power as a community to transform your community.
Speaker 1: Look at these candidates and look at how much better
Speaker 1: they will be for you. It has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with me. I'm here to be a conduit too, and
Speaker 1: for you to understand your power for you to know
Speaker 1: that you're so much more powerful than Olivia Pope. That's
Speaker 1: what I'm here to share with you. I know because
Speaker 1: I was her, and she does not have your power.
Speaker 1: She really doesn't carry Washington. I am just so grateful
Speaker 1: to know you, and you've got so much more to
Speaker 1: do ahead of you. It's very exciting for me to
Speaker 1: have this chance to talk with you. Thank you so much,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. What an honor and delay. You
Speaker 1: can keep up with Carrie's acting and her activism on
Speaker 1: social media, and I highly recommend the documentary she produced,
Speaker 1: called The Fight, which is streaming online in lots of places.
Speaker 1: Go to Fight the film dot com to check it out.
Speaker 1: I can't talk about politics on TV without talking about
Speaker 1: what is like to see myself portrayed on Saturday Night Live.
Speaker 1: I can't say that I've enjoyed every part of it,
Speaker 1: but I certainly have admired the extraordinary abilities of the
Speaker 1: actors who have portrayed me, most recently the terrific Kate McKinnon,
Speaker 1: and opposite her, of course, was my next guest, Alec Baldwin,
Speaker 1: masterfully playing a role he never imagined he'd be stuck
Speaker 1: with for four years and for this he blamed s
Speaker 1: n l's legendary producer, Lauren Michaels. But he also played
Speaker 1: another Republican character, Jack Donneghee opposite Tina Fey on Thirty Rock.
Speaker 1: In real life, he's a proud Democrat. He's lent his
Speaker 1: voice and his energy and talents to countless political causes
Speaker 1: and candidates over the years. How are you doing, Alec?
Speaker 1: Are you holding up? I'm good, but I'm intimidated as
Speaker 1: always because what could I possibly talk to you about politics?
Speaker 1: What could I possibly say to you? This is like
Speaker 1: Joe Namath throwing a football with a four year old.
Speaker 1: Maybe the four year old was I don't know, Tom Brady,
Speaker 1: who knows right future? A budding star. Well, first of all,
Speaker 1: you have a lot to say about a lot of things.
Speaker 1: I know that because we've had the chance to talk before.
Speaker 1: But it's so interesting for me to hear your perspective
Speaker 1: about where we are today versus where we were a year,
Speaker 1: two year, three years ago, because know, you gave voice,
Speaker 1: gave life to a couple of different characters whose politics
Speaker 1: you don't agree with at all. And it's not just Trump,
Speaker 1: it's you know, Jack Donneghie and you know, how did
Speaker 1: this become your specialty? Oh god, I needed a job
Speaker 1: and they paid me. I'll play any woman to play.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I'll find a way. But when
Speaker 1: I think about the Trump thing on S and L,
Speaker 1: and it's so ironic to talk to you, of all
Speaker 1: people that you know, Lawrence said to me, it's only
Speaker 1: gonna be two shows. We you know who's gonna win,
Speaker 1: and it's only gonna be two shows. And I thought, okay,
Speaker 1: I can. I can bite the bullet and and endure
Speaker 1: this for two shows. So it's election night two thousand
Speaker 1: and sixteen, and my wife and I are watching the
Speaker 1: TV and and finally we go to bed. We just
Speaker 1: can't take any and we fall asleep, and three o'clock
Speaker 1: in the morning rolls around. I wake up and I go,
Speaker 1: he won. And my wife rolled up and goes, oh
Speaker 1: god no, And then she rolled over and went back
Speaker 1: to bed, and I sat there and I went, Now
Speaker 1: I got to play this character for the next four
Speaker 1: were years. Knowing Lauren, he'd be like, come on them,
Speaker 1: he was here first call it like four o'clock in
Speaker 1: the morning, right right right now, he's he's he's going
Speaker 1: to bed at four o'clock in the morning with his schedule.
Speaker 1: But I think the point that I always think about
Speaker 1: is that people say to me, you know, what was
Speaker 1: the point in your mind, like why did you do this?
Speaker 1: Because it wasn't about money or anything. I said that
Speaker 1: it's one thing if people have reversals, they make mistakes,
Speaker 1: and you attack them. There are Republican candidates that I
Speaker 1: have admired in some sense. Romney was a successful businessman.
Speaker 1: I might not agree with some of his policies. McCain
Speaker 1: was somebody I could agree with. I mean, there are
Speaker 1: Republicans that if they won, I could have lived with.
Speaker 1: But when this guy came and you're a New Yorker
Speaker 1: and you knew what he was and wasn't, what I
Speaker 1: thought was there's people who you will never change their mind.
Speaker 1: There's people who don't ever need to change their mind,
Speaker 1: and that group in the middle. We thought if we
Speaker 1: kept doing it. At least in my mind, I thought,
Speaker 1: if I kept doing it, one year goes by, two
Speaker 1: years goes by, and they go, well, I thought he
Speaker 1: would change, adapt and become better at the job. And
Speaker 1: what we reminded them of us, he's not changing, he's
Speaker 1: not growing. Every human being, as you know, better than
Speaker 1: I'll ever know every man thus far who's in that job.
Speaker 1: What a journey of growth exactly to be the president
Speaker 1: of the United States. That we talk about what you
Speaker 1: see and learn. So when he came along and we
Speaker 1: kept giving it to him, it was to remind people
Speaker 1: that he isn't changing. There's a benefit of the doubt
Speaker 1: we gave him, and he's already gone past the statute
Speaker 1: of limitations on that. But given what a rabid, obsessive
Speaker 1: TV watcher he is, I thought also, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: there was a tiny sliver of self recognition, but no,
Speaker 1: there is not a smidgeon of self awareness. I don't
Speaker 1: think people would send me framed cartoons, you know, not
Speaker 1: not many, but a handful of them. And my favorite
Speaker 1: one was one of them where the guy and the
Speaker 1: women are watching Trump and they go, boy, that Alec
Speaker 1: Baldwin is amazing, and the other person goes, that's Trump.
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny that someone told me that some
Speaker 1: of the things you might want to cover are the
Speaker 1: representation of the presidency in the media. And for me
Speaker 1: and I date myself, I am rounding the corner here
Speaker 1: towards sixty three years al and but but the representation
Speaker 1: of the presidency has and I'll pick two examples of
Speaker 1: someone overwhelmed, be leaguered, exhausted, and yet still maintaining that
Speaker 1: core of integrity and ethical primacy that that role demands.
Speaker 1: I always think of Frederick marchin Seven Days in May,
Speaker 1: and he played the president as this so exhausted and
Speaker 1: enervated by the job, and all these bad things were
Speaker 1: happening around him, and yet he maintained his dignity. And
Speaker 1: I also think of, in a much more almost sci
Speaker 1: fi esque surreal tableau, was Henry Fonda in Fail Safe.
Speaker 1: And now he had to maintain his cool in that chamber.
Speaker 1: He's the president. People are counting on you to not
Speaker 1: act the way other average men might act or women
Speaker 1: if you were bated in this way, so that whenever
Speaker 1: the presidency is portrayed as someone with a preternatural emotional
Speaker 1: steel and will and faith. But you know, it's so
Speaker 1: interesting you mentioned that, Alec, because you know, as a
Speaker 1: woman running for president, I grew up with the same movies.
Speaker 1: I grew up with the same images of real presidents
Speaker 1: who had to withstand tremendous pressure. Whether you know it
Speaker 1: was Kennedy and the Cuban missile crisis, or you know,
Speaker 1: looking at what Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford went through
Speaker 1: all the way up into you know, modern times with
Speaker 1: George W. Bush after nine eleven. And you know, my
Speaker 1: understanding of the presidency is exactly as you describe it.
Speaker 1: And I write in my book what happened when you
Speaker 1: know Trump is baiting me and leering at me in
Speaker 1: the seck in debate, and I'm sitting there thinking, Okay,
Speaker 1: do I turn around and really take him up? Or
Speaker 1: do I maintain that calm and that dignity, because that's
Speaker 1: what presidents do. But in today's world, the entertainment factor,
Speaker 1: the so called you know, authenticity, which often to me
Speaker 1: is really a miss you know, nomer, because what you're
Speaker 1: seeing in our meltdowns and nastiness and mean spiritedness, if
Speaker 1: we look at you know, somebody like Trump, how do
Speaker 1: you maintain it? You know, the presidency obviously has a
Speaker 1: very unique place in your life. To say the least.
Speaker 1: I remember a woman I spoke to who shall remain nameless,
Speaker 1: who was adjacent to the Biden campaign. We spoke on
Speaker 1: the phone about something, and I took the opportunity. I
Speaker 1: lunged for the opportunity to say to her, can I
Speaker 1: tell you what I think he should do? Can I
Speaker 1: go offer you my unsolicited advice? And she was very kind,
Speaker 1: she should go for it, please and I and I said,
Speaker 1: just tell him, just you know, it's his to lose.
Speaker 1: Don't take the bait. Let Trump be um. And I
Speaker 1: really mean this. I want to say, be more like her.
Speaker 1: In the debate where you did mainta You were standing there,
Speaker 1: like you said, Tom Brady in the pocket, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: throw this ball into the end zone. You didn't let
Speaker 1: him get to you. That's always the better choice. I
Speaker 1: want to loop back with what we were talking about
Speaker 1: earlier because I want to ask you something about comedy
Speaker 1: and about sn L in particular. I appreciated your depiction
Speaker 1: of Trump. Do you think actually doing what you did
Speaker 1: and what SNL does, making terrible people sort of more
Speaker 1: palatable to the general public kind of helps them in
Speaker 1: a way. I've heard that many times, many times, that
Speaker 1: what we did only softened the impact of how bad
Speaker 1: they were. But you know, Lord Michaels is someone who
Speaker 1: has steered a show. They're rounding the corner now, towards
Speaker 1: fifty years of being on the air. Isn't that astonishing?
Speaker 1: Now the show they found a way with all of
Speaker 1: the digital and online platforms and everything to bring the
Speaker 1: show to an audience that's almost larger than ever. There
Speaker 1: was a larger audience at the heyday, the Friends and
Speaker 1: Seinfeld era of TV watching, and then it went down
Speaker 1: and now it's back up to where. You know, when
Speaker 1: I was doing the debates and McKinnon played you, he
Speaker 1: played the Jaws music and I was coming up behind.
Speaker 1: When the Jaws music is playing the debate one of
Speaker 1: my favorites, one of the funniest things I've ever seen.
Speaker 1: We're doing that, and uh, you know, but Lauren is
Speaker 1: someone who knows that he has two constituents to serve,
Speaker 1: the people that own the company and his audience and
Speaker 1: his staff and writers. And there are lines that he
Speaker 1: has asked to cross all the time that he will
Speaker 1: not cross. There are things people pitch. I've pitched things
Speaker 1: which he said there and said to me, maybe not
Speaker 1: because he doesn't want the show to become just outrageous
Speaker 1: or a bully pulpit. It's an entertainment program. And the
Speaker 1: one thing that we were criticized for but I was
Speaker 1: nonetheless the most satisfied with it, and I took the
Speaker 1: greatest pleasure from which is what we said were verbatim
Speaker 1: transcripts of what he had said. You couldn't criticize this
Speaker 1: and say we imagine it was a fantasy. He said it,
Speaker 1: he did it, and we would just do that, and
Speaker 1: I forever I'm grateful for that, because we didn't cross
Speaker 1: with any bounds. Everything was in the whalm of reality.
Speaker 1: But you're right, there are some people who we rallied
Speaker 1: the troops on the other side, we rallied our opposition.
Speaker 1: They would sit there and they were like, you know,
Speaker 1: if I was dying in the desert and Alec Baldwin
Speaker 1: gave me a canteen, I'd rather die than dream from
Speaker 1: now like Baldwin's canteen. There is that group. Let's talk
Speaker 1: for a second about thirty Rock and about the character
Speaker 1: you play, Jack Donneghie, which you were brilliant at and
Speaker 1: you know, the boss to the Tina Fey character Liz Lemon,
Speaker 1: and the way you portrayed Donnaghie is that you know,
Speaker 1: you were a Reagan Republican who was going to Reagan
Speaker 1: when you died well. I viewed Donna g as what
Speaker 1: we used to call when I was younger, a Rockefeller Republican,
Speaker 1: which it really wasn't about social issues. Men can go
Speaker 1: ahead and marry each other, and uh, I don't have
Speaker 1: any opinions about other social issues like a woman's right
Speaker 1: to choose and so forth. He's a Rockefeller Republican, which
Speaker 1: means there's no problem you can have in this life
Speaker 1: that can't be solved by making more money. And I
Speaker 1: would really appreciate it if the government in every week
Speaker 1: just got out of the way. I mean, I want
Speaker 1: lower taxes and less regulations of my business, and I'm fine.
Speaker 1: There was a scene I'm on a balcony, I'm on
Speaker 1: a terrace with Tina, and of course the Donaghee character
Speaker 1: was all Robert Carla Cantina. I didn't write it. They're
Speaker 1: the geniuses here and I'm on a balcony with a
Speaker 1: glass of wine and Tina says, I'm working so hard
Speaker 1: and I don't know what e's gonna happen in my life.
Speaker 1: She goes, I'm getting older now. Pretty soon, no one's
Speaker 1: gonna want to even see me naked. And I don't
Speaker 1: flinch and I have a drink in my hand, and
Speaker 1: I go, will you make enough money you pay someone
Speaker 1: to see you? And that is donneghese philosophy. Who as
Speaker 1: long as we're making a lot of money, what do
Speaker 1: you care? Money solves everything? But that description of that
Speaker 1: scene and his philosophy. I ran across that in this
Speaker 1: last election. I mean you did too. You know, you
Speaker 1: grew up with people on Long Island who said to you, right, look,
Speaker 1: I can't stand the guy, you know, I think he's
Speaker 1: over the top, etcetera, etcetera. But hey, I'm doing well.
Speaker 1: You know, the business is doing well. He got my taxes.
Speaker 1: I don't care what else he does. Right that, that
Speaker 1: is a real but but you know more of you
Speaker 1: and your husband know more about this than anybody you're
Speaker 1: out here where there are some obviously a lot of
Speaker 1: privileged people. I guess from time to time their attitude was,
Speaker 1: I'm not voting for Trump. I just can't vote for Biden. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just would not vote for it. You're gonna raise
Speaker 1: my taxes, You're gonna raise my capital gains. I can't
Speaker 1: stand Trump. I'm gonna hold my nose, but I'll never
Speaker 1: vote for a never, never we'll be right back. We
Speaker 1: do have to keep laughing. I mean, part of what
Speaker 1: I worry about is that the stuff that's happening in
Speaker 1: the country right now is deadly serious, and we know
Speaker 1: how divided we are, and it's a kind of contradiction.
Speaker 1: And I'd love your insight into this and what role
Speaker 1: comedy and theater and and and your work as an
Speaker 1: actor could bring in trying to shine a light on
Speaker 1: some common ground. Is there a way for people to
Speaker 1: begin talking to each other again in a useful way?
Speaker 1: I think now that Trump has gone yes, because Trump
Speaker 1: was something we could not set that aside. There are
Speaker 1: people that have had they won. I had profound differences
Speaker 1: of opinion with them, but I could have bitten the
Speaker 1: bullet and a few months goes by and you accept,
Speaker 1: and you also know that we get back to that
Speaker 1: idea of that person growing in the job. George W.
Speaker 1: Bush grew with the job. Who would have thought, especially
Speaker 1: if you're in there two terms, what it are to
Speaker 1: be able to change and expand your mind and your
Speaker 1: humanity And with Trump, none of that. So we had
Speaker 1: no choice. It was truly our civic duty to resist
Speaker 1: him and to underline what he was doing. Now that
Speaker 1: he's gone, we might not solve every problem, but we
Speaker 1: have a chance. With Biden and Harrass, we have a chance.
Speaker 1: Is there anybody currently on the political scene that you
Speaker 1: would want to, you know, play or in some way
Speaker 1: convey an image of I want to get away from
Speaker 1: the comedy thing now. I really want to kind of
Speaker 1: scrape that coat of paint off me and go do
Speaker 1: I've got some dramatic things lined up. I think right now,
Speaker 1: where I'm kind of setting my lane I'm getting back
Speaker 1: into is working with the United Nations the Environmental Program.
Speaker 1: Because you know, there's institutions that you sit there and
Speaker 1: you want to criticize them. The post office is a
Speaker 1: good example. I used to say to myself, why don't
Speaker 1: FedEx and ups just by the post office? And then
Speaker 1: you thought to yourself, oh god, if we made the
Speaker 1: post office a business, how many people would get hurt?
Speaker 1: So I got off that idea. I have a sense
Speaker 1: of some institutions and if I'm critical of them, I
Speaker 1: realized to some degree, I don't fully understand how they
Speaker 1: really work and their importance. And one of those that
Speaker 1: I have abundant faith and I've always been so honored
Speaker 1: to be invited to the party is the United Nations,
Speaker 1: and I'm really going to go full born now into
Speaker 1: my un EP work. We're going off to Norway, We're
Speaker 1: going off to Scotland for the Global Conference. My wife
Speaker 1: and I are really going to commit to showing up
Speaker 1: for these events to support the work of the United
Speaker 1: Nations Environmental Program. Good for you. Environmentalism is my new
Speaker 1: big thing yet that I'm going back to more of that. Yea.
Speaker 1: Let me just say to you as we close, and
Speaker 1: that is you and you hear this from your friends,
Speaker 1: and you hear this from your supporters and fans all
Speaker 1: the time. Democrat in the White House, Republican in the
Speaker 1: White House, COVID, no COVID. We need to hear your
Speaker 1: voice giving your measured opinion of all these things. Please
Speaker 1: don't stop doing these shows. Okay I won't, and let's
Speaker 1: keep the conversation going. Thank you. You can hear more
Speaker 1: from Alec on his podcast. Here's the thing. Thanks for
Speaker 1: joining us. If you have a favorite version of politics
Speaker 1: on TV, send us a note at You and Me
Speaker 1: Both pod at gmail dot com because we love hearing
Speaker 1: from you. You and Me Both is brought to you
Speaker 1: by my Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen
Speaker 1: Russo and Lauren Peterson, with help from Juma Aberdeen, Nicky
Speaker 1: E tour, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill,
Speaker 1: Rob Russo and Lona vl Moro. Our engineer is Zack
Speaker 1: McNeice and the original music is by Forest Gray. If
Speaker 1: you like you and me both, please tell someone else
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