WEBVTT - Making Dam Good Hydropower 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.036 Pushkin. I'm Jacob Goldstein. This is What's Your Problem, the 0:00:23.076 --> 0:00:25.116 show where I talk to people who are trying to 0:00:25.196 --> 0:00:30.196 make technological progress. My guest today is Gia Schneider. Ga 0:00:30.276 --> 0:00:33.796 is the co founder and CEO of Natel Energy, and 0:00:33.876 --> 0:00:37.476 her problem is this, can you get all the good 0:00:37.596 --> 0:00:47.676 parts of hydro electric power without the bad? In order 0:00:47.756 --> 0:00:51.396 to solve that problem, there's sort of two sub problems 0:00:51.436 --> 0:00:54.876 that Gia has to solve. First, how do you build 0:00:54.916 --> 0:00:57.916 a turbine that can go into a river and generate 0:00:57.996 --> 0:01:02.516 power without chopping up fish? That, as you'll hear in 0:01:02.556 --> 0:01:06.076 the first part of the show, is an interesting engineering challenge. 0:01:06.756 --> 0:01:09.436 And then in the second part of the show, Gia 0:01:09.476 --> 0:01:12.396 talks about a second problem to solve, how do you 0:01:12.436 --> 0:01:16.276 put dams in rivers without messing up the broader ecosystem? 0:01:16.836 --> 0:01:18.836 And I have to say I found that part of 0:01:18.876 --> 0:01:23.596 the conversation particularly interesting. For one thing, it involves beavers, 0:01:23.996 --> 0:01:27.796 always fun. Second, and perhaps more importantly, that part of 0:01:27.796 --> 0:01:33.836 the conversation changed the way I think about rivers. So 0:01:34.716 --> 0:01:36.596 let's start with the Let's start with the happy. Why 0:01:36.636 --> 0:01:37.556 is hydro power great? 0:01:38.436 --> 0:01:42.036 Yeah, hydropower is a great source of energy because it 0:01:42.196 --> 0:01:46.636 is reliable and predictable. What that means is that if 0:01:46.636 --> 0:01:48.956 I'm sitting here today and I'm looking forward at what 0:01:48.996 --> 0:01:51.196 I can expect to get out of my power plant 0:01:51.196 --> 0:01:53.596 over to say, the next day, the next week, I 0:01:53.676 --> 0:01:56.836 have a very good idea of what I will get 0:01:56.876 --> 0:02:00.236 minute to minute, hour to hour. And that reliability is 0:02:00.276 --> 0:02:04.916 really valuable in terms of balancing out the operation of 0:02:04.916 --> 0:02:06.556 a grid and keeping a grid reliable. 0:02:06.996 --> 0:02:10.036 Right that, and that is not true. Were not as 0:02:10.076 --> 0:02:13.316 true importantly of solar power or wind power. Right, those 0:02:13.316 --> 0:02:16.876 are more intermittent and less predictable. So those are reasons 0:02:16.916 --> 0:02:21.156 why hydro power is great. Why is hydro power bad? 0:02:21.356 --> 0:02:26.276 What's the problem? Yeah, so hydro is The challenges with 0:02:26.356 --> 0:02:28.636 hydro or the negatives really come from the fact that 0:02:29.036 --> 0:02:33.796 the way in which hydropower works is by taking water 0:02:34.036 --> 0:02:37.716 and moving it across an elevation drop through a turbine. 0:02:37.796 --> 0:02:40.436 And to get that elevation drop, we generally have built dams, 0:02:40.716 --> 0:02:43.556 and those dams then change the way in which rivers 0:02:43.636 --> 0:02:47.516 flow in sometimes very material ways, and rivers are effectively 0:02:47.556 --> 0:02:49.916 the circulatory system of the planet. And so as you 0:02:49.916 --> 0:02:53.516 can imagine, as you start to like change those flow patterns, 0:02:53.556 --> 0:02:58.116 that has some real implications for the ecosystem around those rivers. 0:02:58.396 --> 0:03:00.876 Right, So dams can mess up the rivers, correct, and 0:03:00.956 --> 0:03:03.716 then the turbines themselves can be bad as well. 0:03:03.796 --> 0:03:07.396 Right, Yeah, the turbines themselves, and you know have they 0:03:07.436 --> 0:03:12.596 are amazing machines that have been highly engineered for high 0:03:12.676 --> 0:03:18.236 efficiency and performance. They are, they're very outstanding engineering products. 0:03:18.636 --> 0:03:21.476 At the same time, they aren't very safe in many 0:03:21.516 --> 0:03:24.556 cases for passage of aquatic life. 0:03:24.876 --> 0:03:27.036 They're like fish blenders in the middle of the river. 0:03:27.316 --> 0:03:29.836 It's not necessarily always quite as bad as fish blenders, 0:03:29.836 --> 0:03:31.916 but yes, bottom line is you can kind of average 0:03:31.956 --> 0:03:33.676 it out and say like one in five fish through 0:03:33.716 --> 0:03:36.596 a conventional turbine generally won't survive. 0:03:37.276 --> 0:03:39.956 So there's sort of two levels of problems. One is 0:03:40.036 --> 0:03:43.276 the dam and the other is the turbine. Correct. 0:03:43.596 --> 0:03:43.956 Correct. 0:03:43.956 --> 0:03:46.676 So let's start with the turbine problem. Just in the 0:03:46.716 --> 0:03:49.116 case of the US, What are the main fish of 0:03:49.876 --> 0:03:53.676 concern species of concern? What fish are getting chopped up 0:03:53.716 --> 0:03:54.516 by turbines? 0:03:55.316 --> 0:03:59.756 Well, there are many fish, of course. The species of 0:03:59.796 --> 0:04:02.956 concern that raise to the kind of top of the 0:04:03.036 --> 0:04:08.916 list from a human perspective at least are salmon because 0:04:08.916 --> 0:04:11.396 sand and as a commercial fishery that has a lot 0:04:11.436 --> 0:04:16.316 of value, and eel is a more recent species of concern. 0:04:16.956 --> 0:04:19.516 Eel is less because it's a commercial fishery, but more 0:04:20.156 --> 0:04:23.036 actually because eel are a critical part of the life 0:04:23.036 --> 0:04:26.356 cycle for freshwater muscles. And one of the things that 0:04:26.396 --> 0:04:29.156 we've really started to understand in the last decade or 0:04:29.196 --> 0:04:34.476 so is that freshwater muscles are really critical to water quality, 0:04:34.756 --> 0:04:37.676 and we as humans care about water quality a lot, 0:04:37.916 --> 0:04:39.756 even if we might not care that much about freshwater 0:04:39.796 --> 0:04:41.036 muscles or eel. 0:04:40.836 --> 0:04:43.156 So just to be clear, like if you put a 0:04:43.156 --> 0:04:46.636 turbine in a river and the eel get chopped up 0:04:46.676 --> 0:04:48.396 in it, the water quality. 0:04:48.076 --> 0:04:50.236 Gets worse, yes, bottom line, yep. 0:04:50.836 --> 0:04:55.236 And I've heard of you know, ladders and things like 0:04:55.276 --> 0:05:00.156 that for fish, like why didn't pre existing solutions work 0:05:00.276 --> 0:05:01.676 very well? 0:05:01.916 --> 0:05:04.836 So actually we have focused quite a bit on getting 0:05:04.836 --> 0:05:08.596 fish upstream with ladders and have had you know, some 0:05:08.636 --> 0:05:11.796 degree of success with that for certain species. Eel and 0:05:11.836 --> 0:05:15.236 salmon actually are both able to navigate ladders of different 0:05:15.276 --> 0:05:20.436 types upstream, eel in particular quite well. The thing that 0:05:20.476 --> 0:05:22.396 we had focused less on is how do we get 0:05:22.436 --> 0:05:26.796 fish back downstream safely? So actually building ways to get 0:05:26.836 --> 0:05:29.396 fish to move upstream is in some ways maybe a 0:05:29.436 --> 0:05:33.916 more accessible problem than how do you deal with getting 0:05:33.916 --> 0:05:38.076 fish to move safely downstream? Where from a hydropower perspective, 0:05:38.116 --> 0:05:40.556 you want most of that water moving through your turbine 0:05:40.596 --> 0:05:42.796 because the amount of water going through your turbine is 0:05:42.836 --> 0:05:45.236 directly relevantly on energy you create. 0:05:45.316 --> 0:05:47.996 Right, So it's a difficult trade off. You could either 0:05:48.116 --> 0:05:50.316 route the water around the turbine and then the fish 0:05:50.356 --> 0:05:52.756 don't die, but then you don't get any power because 0:05:52.796 --> 0:05:54.036 you rounted all the water around your. 0:05:53.996 --> 0:05:57.476 Turb right, right, And so the mitigation, the interim mitigation 0:05:57.556 --> 0:06:00.316 that folks have started to explore, is to put screens. 0:06:00.596 --> 0:06:03.116 So not just so all hydropower plants have what are 0:06:03.116 --> 0:06:06.516 called trash racks to keep like, you know, shopping carts 0:06:06.556 --> 0:06:09.796 and logs and all sorts of things that rip from 0:06:09.796 --> 0:06:13.036 going through the turbine, but those trash racks you know, 0:06:13.116 --> 0:06:15.836 will have you know, an inch to four inch spacing, 0:06:15.956 --> 0:06:18.876 so quite a few things fish, you know, can make 0:06:18.916 --> 0:06:21.996 it through. So folks have looked at screens. But the 0:06:22.036 --> 0:06:25.316 problem with screens is that the finer the screen, the 0:06:25.316 --> 0:06:27.316 more likely you are to keep fish out. But the 0:06:27.356 --> 0:06:30.756 finer the screen, the more efficiency loss you have across 0:06:30.796 --> 0:06:31.156 the screen. 0:06:31.236 --> 0:06:37.196 The screen it just gets covered and leaves Schmitz and whatever. Yeah, okay, 0:06:36.956 --> 0:06:41.036 so your notion is like, let's let's fix the blade itself. 0:06:41.156 --> 0:06:43.356 Can we make a blade that will generate power and 0:06:43.396 --> 0:06:48.796 not kill fish exactly? Exactly? Seems seems hard, Like when 0:06:48.876 --> 0:06:52.436 you're setting out to do this, what what are you 0:06:52.476 --> 0:06:53.036 thinking about? 0:06:53.436 --> 0:06:57.116 So conventional turbines particularly, you know, probably most folks are 0:06:57.116 --> 0:07:00.556 familiar with, say a wind turbine. They are circular in nature, 0:07:00.796 --> 0:07:02.716 and so what that means as they spin is the 0:07:02.756 --> 0:07:06.396 tips are moving faster than the center of the blade. 0:07:06.396 --> 0:07:08.476 If anybody's been on the merry ground, you know that. 0:07:08.796 --> 0:07:14.116 So one thought we had was because speed is directly 0:07:14.156 --> 0:07:17.116 proportional to the speed at which something hits you, is 0:07:17.796 --> 0:07:19.796 going to have a relation to how hard or how 0:07:19.876 --> 0:07:20.476 much it hurts. 0:07:20.636 --> 0:07:22.636 Right right, if you're a fish, you're more likely to 0:07:22.716 --> 0:07:26.516 die by a blade that's spinning really fast, correct exactly. 0:07:26.836 --> 0:07:31.156 And so one way to change the ratio and have 0:07:31.236 --> 0:07:34.276 a consistent speed across the whole length of the blade 0:07:34.676 --> 0:07:37.236 is to instead of having blades move in a circle 0:07:37.716 --> 0:07:41.396 around a central hub, to if you think about taking 0:07:42.836 --> 0:07:45.076 the center hub and a turban and splitting it in 0:07:45.116 --> 0:07:48.396 two and stretching it apart. It was a very different. 0:07:48.116 --> 0:07:50.036 Design, sounds very complicated. 0:07:50.276 --> 0:07:53.236 It was hard to picture, yes, And I think bottom line, 0:07:53.276 --> 0:07:55.196 we realized after a lot of work, we didn't need 0:07:55.236 --> 0:07:59.116 to do that. We could just make a better blade 0:07:59.116 --> 0:08:04.756 shape on a conventional turbine design. But that took quite 0:08:04.836 --> 0:08:07.796 a bit of work to get to that point. 0:08:08.436 --> 0:08:09.556 How did you figure that out? 0:08:10.036 --> 0:08:12.076 Well, the simple version is a lot of trial and 0:08:12.196 --> 0:08:15.916 error and a lot of you know, experimentation. Where we 0:08:16.076 --> 0:08:18.036 ended up is actually I think a very simple and 0:08:18.076 --> 0:08:23.116 elegant solution, which is which which belies the amount of 0:08:23.156 --> 0:08:25.036 work that went into it. 0:08:25.116 --> 0:08:28.156 Often in the case like it's easy once you know 0:08:28.196 --> 0:08:29.996 how to do it right, figuring out how to do 0:08:30.036 --> 0:08:30.916 it is hard. 0:08:30.836 --> 0:08:35.996 Right and and the simple elegant solution basically it comes 0:08:36.036 --> 0:08:38.156 down to two things. One is that the leading edge 0:08:38.156 --> 0:08:43.276 of the blade itself is fairly thick relative to the 0:08:43.796 --> 0:08:46.876 size of fish interacting with it, and so that is 0:08:46.956 --> 0:08:48.796 kind of intuitive. If you have a you have a 0:08:48.836 --> 0:08:51.356 blunt edge moving through the water as opposed to a 0:08:51.396 --> 0:08:53.476 knife edge moving through the water. The blunt edge is 0:08:53.516 --> 0:08:57.356 going to be better for interacting with like things get deflected, 0:08:57.396 --> 0:08:59.596 fish get deflected, or if. 0:08:59.516 --> 0:09:01.476 You think of it from the fish's point of view, 0:09:01.516 --> 0:09:04.996 like if you're swimming into a knife blade, that's going 0:09:05.076 --> 0:09:06.636 to mess you up more than if you're swimming into 0:09:06.716 --> 0:09:08.636 like a little wall right. 0:09:08.556 --> 0:09:15.516 Right, like a rounded a rounded wall or rounded rounded rounded. 0:09:17.316 --> 0:09:20.756 So that's one part and then the other part is 0:09:21.636 --> 0:09:23.956 and actually the physics around it are fairly interesting because 0:09:23.996 --> 0:09:28.076 that rounded edge creates a almost like an air bag, 0:09:28.156 --> 0:09:30.116 like a you can think of it like as a 0:09:30.116 --> 0:09:34.196 as a field like water water bag, and it basically 0:09:34.236 --> 0:09:36.196 helps deflect stuff around the blade. 0:09:36.236 --> 0:09:39.356 So that part's good stuff, including fish. 0:09:39.116 --> 0:09:42.276 Stuff including fish. And then the other part was to 0:09:42.316 --> 0:09:44.596 solve that problem of the fact that the tips move 0:09:44.676 --> 0:09:47.876 faster than the hub than the center, and to do 0:09:47.996 --> 0:09:53.156 that we then introduced a swoop forward of the blade. 0:09:53.316 --> 0:09:56.436 And that is again you know a little bit of 0:09:56.436 --> 0:09:59.796 physics is what that. But the way to intutorly understand 0:09:59.836 --> 0:10:02.276 it is that if you're if you're swimming through water 0:10:02.316 --> 0:10:04.436 and you get struck with a glancing blow as opposed 0:10:04.476 --> 0:10:07.556 to a direct blow, the glancing blow hurts a lot less. 0:10:07.956 --> 0:10:11.276 Yeah, I want a glancing blo those are my choice, right, And. 0:10:11.196 --> 0:10:15.036 So by swooping the blade forward, it simply it basically 0:10:15.036 --> 0:10:17.596 means that you don't have direct strikes. You have glanc 0:10:17.636 --> 0:10:20.796 Dange strikes, and the energy of that impact is now 0:10:20.916 --> 0:10:25.996 dramatically less and that leads directly to survival. So all 0:10:25.996 --> 0:10:27.916 of this is around the leading edge of the blade, 0:10:27.956 --> 0:10:30.996 and that's all tied up with fish safety. The rest 0:10:31.036 --> 0:10:33.996 of the blade shape is all about performance again because 0:10:34.156 --> 0:10:37.396 we have to have high performance, hig efficiency machines. And 0:10:37.476 --> 0:10:41.756 so the twin engineering challenges were this then balancing the 0:10:41.916 --> 0:10:44.116 shape on the leading edge with the shape of the 0:10:44.116 --> 0:10:46.356 rest of the blade. So we have a highly fished 0:10:46.356 --> 0:10:50.916 safe leading edge with a high performing rest of the blade. Right. 0:10:51.036 --> 0:10:53.996 So now you've figured out how to not kill fish, 0:10:54.156 --> 0:10:56.356 but you have to make sure you can still generate power. 0:10:56.396 --> 0:10:57.276 It still has to work. 0:10:57.396 --> 0:10:58.956 It still has to work, still has to work at 0:10:58.996 --> 0:11:02.356 you know, ninety ninety three percent efficiency. That's these are 0:11:02.476 --> 0:11:06.876 very very high performance machines. And then I think the 0:11:06.956 --> 0:11:12.556 other additional construt that we face is a design approach 0:11:12.836 --> 0:11:16.996 that can design blades that are able to go into 0:11:17.116 --> 0:11:19.716 all of the existing hydropower plants that we have today. 0:11:20.076 --> 0:11:22.596 When we're talking about hydro, we're talking about dealing with 0:11:22.636 --> 0:11:26.516 a large, existing installed base that we want to upgrade 0:11:26.956 --> 0:11:29.036 to be fish safe, which means we need to go 0:11:29.076 --> 0:11:31.996 into the existing concrete and all the other stuff that's there. 0:11:32.156 --> 0:11:35.076 So this is essentially a replacement part building a whole 0:11:35.116 --> 0:11:38.036 new system. We're building a replacement part. So just so 0:11:38.236 --> 0:11:39.676 you figure out how to build this thing, and just 0:11:39.716 --> 0:11:42.116 tell me, what does it look like to somebody who 0:11:42.116 --> 0:11:44.236 doesn't know about all the swooping and the wide blade. 0:11:44.276 --> 0:11:45.596 Just if you look at it, what does it look like? 0:11:45.916 --> 0:11:49.116 It looks like a propeller, but with a very punky, 0:11:49.476 --> 0:11:51.316 you know, big thick leading edge. 0:11:51.756 --> 0:11:53.756 Uh huh, Yeah, I mean I looked at it and 0:11:53.796 --> 0:11:56.076 I thought like, oh, it just looks like a jet 0:11:56.116 --> 0:12:00.676 engine kind of right. There's like a around there's like 0:12:00.716 --> 0:12:05.756 a metal cylinder with the blade inside of it. Correct, Like, yeah, 0:12:05.756 --> 0:12:07.676 you wouldn't know. You wouldn't know how hard it was 0:12:07.796 --> 0:12:09.796 or that it doesn't kill fish if you looked at it. 0:12:10.076 --> 0:12:10.676 That's correct. 0:12:11.476 --> 0:12:17.076 There is there a moment when you when you test it, 0:12:17.116 --> 0:12:19.596 is there like, okay, we made this thing, let's see 0:12:19.596 --> 0:12:21.276 if it kills fish. Like, how do you figure out 0:12:21.316 --> 0:12:22.116 if it kills fish. 0:12:22.196 --> 0:12:25.276 We have a water tank and a pump and we 0:12:25.316 --> 0:12:28.596 recirculate water through a set of pipes through a turbine. 0:12:29.036 --> 0:12:31.476 That turbine has a transparent housing around it, so we 0:12:31.516 --> 0:12:33.396 can take high speed video so we can see the 0:12:33.436 --> 0:12:34.476 fish as they go through. 0:12:34.676 --> 0:12:36.796 Cool see what they do. You're just dump fishing and 0:12:36.876 --> 0:12:38.236 say good luck fish. 0:12:37.996 --> 0:12:42.716 Basically, yeah, and then we I mean, this is all 0:12:42.796 --> 0:12:45.276 very scientific, right, So we tag each fish that goes 0:12:45.316 --> 0:12:47.436 through the turbine, we capture it at the end, we 0:12:47.556 --> 0:12:50.116 have we inspect the fish before, we inspect the fish 0:12:50.156 --> 0:12:52.836 after we hold the fish for forty eight hours after 0:12:52.836 --> 0:12:55.836 they go through the turbine. We have a control population. 0:12:56.156 --> 0:13:01.036 So traditional turbines you said kill about twenty percent of 0:13:01.076 --> 0:13:05.476 the fish that pass through them. What percent of the 0:13:05.516 --> 0:13:08.796 fish that passed through your turbine are killed by the. 0:13:08.756 --> 0:13:11.556 Turbine less than two percent. So we have done tests 0:13:11.596 --> 0:13:14.956 that have one hundred percent survival, so zero fish die. 0:13:15.116 --> 0:13:17.876 So you got your turbine. It doesn't kill fish. And 0:13:18.036 --> 0:13:20.316 by the way, how does it compare in terms of efficiency? 0:13:20.356 --> 0:13:24.636 How is it at generating power compared to comparable turbines. 0:13:24.476 --> 0:13:27.556 Similar So it's not the case where we can always 0:13:27.556 --> 0:13:30.356 say that there is no trade off. Some of the 0:13:30.356 --> 0:13:33.756 most efficient hydroturbines out there, you know, approach efficiencies of 0:13:33.836 --> 0:13:37.396 ninety four ninety five percent. I think right now we 0:13:37.436 --> 0:13:40.476 top out at around ninety three percent. So for the 0:13:40.476 --> 0:13:42.476 most efficient, there will be some turbines that are a 0:13:42.476 --> 0:13:45.996 little bit more efficient. However, when you think about prioritization 0:13:46.116 --> 0:13:49.156 of fish passage, and you think about a very efficient turbine, 0:13:49.196 --> 0:13:50.836 but now you need to put a screen in front 0:13:50.836 --> 0:13:55.436 of it, you end up with net net delivered cost 0:13:55.476 --> 0:14:00.516 of energy relative to fish safe performance is definitely better 0:14:00.676 --> 0:14:02.756 when you can pass fish safely through a turbine, even 0:14:02.756 --> 0:14:05.556 if it's ninety three percent instead of ninety four percent efficient. 0:14:05.636 --> 0:14:08.556 So you got your turbine. It works. Where are your 0:14:08.596 --> 0:14:11.116 turbines in the world today generating energy? 0:14:11.996 --> 0:14:16.116 Today? We have three projects installed, one in Oregon, one 0:14:16.156 --> 0:14:17.796 in Maine, and one in Austria. 0:14:18.436 --> 0:14:23.196 And are these like pilots? Are these like big utility scale? 0:14:23.396 --> 0:14:25.916 Are they like? What is the nature of these three? 0:14:26.036 --> 0:14:29.556 They're commercial installations. They are generating electricity connected to the grid. 0:14:30.596 --> 0:14:37.916 We're looking at things in Virginia, in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Switzerland, France, 0:14:39.876 --> 0:14:42.236 and now most recently up in Ontario, and I should 0:14:42.236 --> 0:14:44.476 be very clear, these are all deals that we're working 0:14:44.476 --> 0:14:46.196 on that are not yet closed with a couple of 0:14:46.196 --> 0:14:49.516 different utilities. So I think what we are I think 0:14:49.596 --> 0:14:52.956 really at an interesting tipping point from a commercial perspective, 0:14:53.476 --> 0:14:56.596 where the industry is finally realizing that there is a 0:14:56.636 --> 0:14:59.956 way to upgrade all of these old assets, maintain or 0:14:59.956 --> 0:15:02.636 actually improve in some cases the power output simply because 0:15:02.636 --> 0:15:05.196 we're replacing really old turbans with new turbans, and the 0:15:05.236 --> 0:15:11.876 new turbines are higher performance and do so without killing fish. 0:15:11.956 --> 0:15:14.996 And at the end of the day, our value proposition 0:15:15.036 --> 0:15:18.196 simply is, if you're going to spend billions of dollars 0:15:18.796 --> 0:15:21.836 on equipment that's going to run for forty or fifty years, 0:15:22.276 --> 0:15:26.236 and you could put in a conventional machine which will 0:15:26.316 --> 0:15:29.356 kill fish, or a machine that is not going to 0:15:29.436 --> 0:15:33.116 kill fish, why would you not choose the machine that 0:15:33.196 --> 0:15:35.356 is not going to kill fish. 0:15:36.236 --> 0:15:42.316 Are there regulatory requirements that make it that sort of 0:15:42.356 --> 0:15:45.436 push utilities towards choosing your turbine? I mean, is it 0:15:45.476 --> 0:15:47.156 like if they don't choose your turbine, then they have 0:15:47.196 --> 0:15:49.076 to put in a really fine screen and it's going 0:15:49.116 --> 0:15:51.956 to be worse for them anyways, that's correct. 0:15:52.036 --> 0:15:55.796 Yes, I think where we're seeing the most immediate uptake 0:15:55.916 --> 0:15:59.556 is places where there are regulations for safe passage which 0:15:59.836 --> 0:16:02.596 require either of putting in a screen with a bypass, 0:16:02.796 --> 0:16:05.476 so you generally are reducing energy because you're putting more 0:16:05.516 --> 0:16:07.796 water around the turbine instead of through in addition to 0:16:07.836 --> 0:16:10.636 the screen, which adds to costs, or in some cases 0:16:10.676 --> 0:16:13.796 you're having to shut down at night for three or 0:16:13.836 --> 0:16:15.556 four or five months out of the year while fish 0:16:15.556 --> 0:16:17.916 are moving. Things like that. 0:16:21.236 --> 0:16:23.476 We'll be back in a minute to discuss gia's long 0:16:23.556 --> 0:16:27.916 term problem. Once you fix turbines, what about dams? How 0:16:27.916 --> 0:16:30.036 do you put a dam in a river without messing 0:16:30.156 --> 0:16:33.476 up the ecosystem? Part of the answer, It turns out 0:16:34.316 --> 0:16:46.596 you ask yourself what would beavers do. There's another problem 0:16:46.636 --> 0:16:51.356 with hydro power, right, which is the dams themselves mess 0:16:51.436 --> 0:16:56.196 up river ecosystems, and a turbine that doesn't kill fish 0:16:56.756 --> 0:16:59.596 doesn't solve that, right, or it doesn't solve it entirely. 0:17:01.716 --> 0:17:02.916 What are you going to do about that one? 0:17:03.396 --> 0:17:08.476 Yeah, well, I think the answer is multi layered, and 0:17:09.556 --> 0:17:12.116 in general our view is that there are certain existing 0:17:12.196 --> 0:17:15.476 dams today that make sense to be removed. That's a 0:17:15.516 --> 0:17:19.036 position that and in general I would say that you'll 0:17:19.076 --> 0:17:22.556 find that to be a position across the industry. They're 0:17:22.556 --> 0:17:25.796 just are in some cases stuff that we built, maybe 0:17:25.796 --> 0:17:28.356 even one hundred years ago that just don't make sense 0:17:28.396 --> 0:17:30.636 to keep in in today. And they should be right. 0:17:31.196 --> 0:17:33.876 And it's a basic cost benefit, like it's a high 0:17:33.956 --> 0:17:36.636 ecological cost, it's not generating that much power, I mean, 0:17:36.636 --> 0:17:37.956 it's not the basic calculus. 0:17:38.116 --> 0:17:40.996 Or it's also just a high operations cost. So it's 0:17:41.036 --> 0:17:45.236 a combination of commercial and environmental factors driving the decision making. 0:17:45.756 --> 0:17:49.116 So the next layer after dam removal is what we 0:17:49.156 --> 0:17:52.996 think of as reconfiguration. So if I have an existing project, 0:17:53.036 --> 0:17:56.036 it makes sense to stay in economically it's a good, 0:17:56.236 --> 0:17:59.276 good asset. But maybe there are some things that I 0:17:59.316 --> 0:18:01.476 can do in addition to putting in fish safe turbines 0:18:01.556 --> 0:18:04.916 that will improve the upstream passage by having a better 0:18:04.956 --> 0:18:09.356 bypass or a more naturalistic upstream passage zone for example. 0:18:10.236 --> 0:18:12.636 Those are reasonable, But you have this big dream. Tell 0:18:12.636 --> 0:18:13.116 me about that. 0:18:13.236 --> 0:18:15.996 Yeah, So the big dream is what we call restoration hydro, 0:18:16.436 --> 0:18:20.476 which is to go full stop in taking the lessons 0:18:20.556 --> 0:18:25.836 learned from river restoration over the last couple decades take 0:18:25.876 --> 0:18:30.636 inspiration from nature's engineers, which are beavers, which do build dams. 0:18:31.196 --> 0:18:33.916 And what's fascinating when you look at beavers is that 0:18:33.956 --> 0:18:37.356 you can find beaver dams that are very large, hundreds 0:18:37.396 --> 0:18:41.356 of feet long, fifteen feet high. You can find beaver 0:18:41.436 --> 0:18:44.396 dams that have been around for a century, can be 0:18:44.516 --> 0:18:48.236 very persistent. And what's interesting when you look at those 0:18:48.276 --> 0:18:51.516 structures is they actually have very positive impacts on the 0:18:51.636 --> 0:18:56.196 river ecosystem with respect to groundwater recharge. They slow water 0:18:56.276 --> 0:18:58.556 runoff down that helps get war water into the ground, 0:18:58.876 --> 0:19:04.396 that helps to benefit the water table. They create more habitat, 0:19:04.436 --> 0:19:07.516 more diverse habitat around in that particular part of the 0:19:07.556 --> 0:19:10.596 river reach, which is beneficial for FIT. So the big 0:19:10.596 --> 0:19:14.196 picture dream is to is to take is basically a 0:19:14.276 --> 0:19:18.516 nature based approach to thinking about rethinking hydro, certainly for 0:19:18.596 --> 0:19:22.756 new build projects, but potentially also for reconfiguring more dramatically 0:19:22.956 --> 0:19:23.916 existing projects. 0:19:24.236 --> 0:19:27.716 I get that beavers are cool, like beavers are indeed amazing, 0:19:28.356 --> 0:19:30.396 but I don't think I get exactly. I mean, are 0:19:30.396 --> 0:19:35.716 you just saying we should build dams like beavers? Like 0:19:35.756 --> 0:19:38.396 I don't really understand practically. 0:19:37.916 --> 0:19:41.556 Building dams that fit what you mean. Yeah, The concept 0:19:41.596 --> 0:19:45.396 behind restoration hydro is to realize that what we see 0:19:45.436 --> 0:19:48.236 in rivers today is not the way rivers actually were 0:19:48.436 --> 0:19:50.556 in their natural state. The rivers in their natural state 0:19:50.596 --> 0:19:54.596 two hundred years ago in North America were full of logjams, 0:19:54.596 --> 0:19:59.836 woody debris, beaver dams, all sorts of barriers to flow. 0:20:00.236 --> 0:20:05.036 Those barriers helped mitigate floods because you si water run 0:20:05.036 --> 0:20:07.796 off down across the landscape. They helped drive groundwater recharge. 0:20:07.836 --> 0:20:08.876 They have a whole bunch of. 0:20:08.836 --> 0:20:11.956 Ben that's cool. So like when we picture a river 0:20:11.996 --> 0:20:15.236 and we just picture it free flowing, that's actually not 0:20:15.396 --> 0:20:18.076 natural either. That is the product of some amount of 0:20:18.116 --> 0:20:18.996 human intervention. 0:20:19.116 --> 0:20:22.316 A huge amount of reream is intervention for navigation for 0:20:22.356 --> 0:20:24.236 all sorts of reasons. Right, we want to be able 0:20:24.276 --> 0:20:25.836 to drive a boat straight through the river. 0:20:27.116 --> 0:20:31.196 So the dream is is you sort of get a 0:20:31.236 --> 0:20:34.516 sense of what the natural dams might have been and 0:20:34.596 --> 0:20:37.796 build those and generate power from them. Like that's the dream. 0:20:37.916 --> 0:20:40.556 That's the dream, And the reality, of course, is that 0:20:40.876 --> 0:20:42.876 it's going to be one step back from that, because 0:20:43.716 --> 0:20:46.676 you know, we live in an existing built infrastructure with 0:20:46.716 --> 0:20:49.316 a lot of stuff that we have to adapt. But 0:20:49.436 --> 0:20:54.476 I think that that is a pathway that we feel 0:20:54.476 --> 0:20:56.836 pretty strongly we're going to have to go down anyway 0:20:56.916 --> 0:21:00.036 in the context of climate change, because if we look 0:21:00.076 --> 0:21:03.716 at the increase in extreme weather events and precipitation events, 0:21:03.716 --> 0:21:07.716 both extreme floods and extreme droughts, the common problem is 0:21:07.716 --> 0:21:10.716 we're getting too much or not enough water in the 0:21:10.956 --> 0:21:11.356 you know. 0:21:11.516 --> 0:21:13.196 At the wrong given moment, right. 0:21:13.756 --> 0:21:17.796 And so what dams do, whether they're man made or natural, 0:21:18.516 --> 0:21:23.716 is help to spread water out across time and across space, 0:21:25.036 --> 0:21:28.516 and that is going to be a critical part of 0:21:28.556 --> 0:21:32.036 adapting to climate change, which we are going to have 0:21:32.156 --> 0:21:34.836 to do. We have a certain amount of climate change 0:21:34.916 --> 0:21:38.716 embedded in our atmosphere today, we are seeing it already, 0:21:39.276 --> 0:21:42.876 and so the view for us around restoration hydros, it's 0:21:42.876 --> 0:21:46.036 a way to start to blend this future of how 0:21:46.076 --> 0:21:48.276 do we deal with climate change from a water resource 0:21:48.276 --> 0:21:51.476 management perspective with also adding to the renewable energy supply. 0:21:51.796 --> 0:21:54.516 It's cool, It's a cool it's a cool way of 0:21:54.556 --> 0:21:56.956 thinking about the world that I had not thought of before. 0:21:56.996 --> 0:22:00.516 So I appreciate it's fun to have a new way 0:22:00.516 --> 0:22:01.276 of thinking about the world. 0:22:01.476 --> 0:22:03.396 Yeah, I mean, I think that this is critical for 0:22:03.476 --> 0:22:07.596 us in general, for everyone who's working to tackle the 0:22:07.716 --> 0:22:12.436 clean energy transition, because if you think about what we're doing, 0:22:12.516 --> 0:22:20.156