WEBVTT - Ep. 3: The Shed Horn Buck of 1962 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:06.840 H how they made to live and how they got by, 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:10.760 I don't know, and I can't imagine. I try not 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:14.120 to complain about anything because they they had all the 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:16.159 right in the world. And I never heard him or 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:21.880 my grandmother negative on anything is positive, had a lot 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:25.000 of respect for him. On this episode of the Bear 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.240 Grease Podcast, I want to introduce you to my friend 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:32.280 and mentor, James Lawrence. James is seventy two years old 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.760 and he's a master whitetail hunter for the region he lives. 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:40.279 James's life and hunting career was heavily influenced by one 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:43.400 of the first deary ever killed in nineteen sixty two. 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.920 It was a giant buck, and previous to him killing 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.800 the buck, he'd found three years of matching sheds. The 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.400 story has many layers and some significant twists and turns. 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:59.320 James's life has been a significant inspiration to me, and 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.720 it has impacted me on many levels. I want to 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:08.360 explore how and why some relationships deeply impact our lives. 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.240 You're gonna enjoy a great white tell story, You're gonna 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:15.720 learn how to still hunt, but I'm also gonna explore 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:21.600 how relationships helped form our own identity. But before we start, 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:24.679 I want to ask you a question. Who are the 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:37.880 influential people in your life? And why? My name is 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.520 Clay Nukelem and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.800 we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:50.200 unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of Americans 0:01:50.360 --> 0:02:02.400 who lived their lives close to the land. James Lawrence's 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:06.640 family homesteaded in a small rural community in the Washingtal 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:13.280 Mountains of western Arkansas in the mid eighteen hundreds. They 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:17.840 weren't wealthy people, but common people, typical of the demographic 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:22.000 of those migrating into the Arkansas Highlands. Most of these 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:25.320 newcomers came by the way of the Appalachians and were 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:29.480 of Scotch Irish descent. In the mid eighteen hundreds, up 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:32.680 to fifty percent of the migrants that were coming into 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:37.040 the Ozarks came from Middle Tennessee. But James's family came 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.720 directly out of Kentucky into the Washingtals, which is a 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:45.519 range of mountains south of the Ozarks. To this day, 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:49.760 the culture of all these regions are almost mirror reflections 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:53.720 of each other. All the history of James's family is 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:57.760 held simply in what can be remembered by those still alive. 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:03.080 If they'd been wealthy, are famous, perhaps some documentable history 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:08.840 would have deemed their story worthy of remembrance. Today, weathered 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.400 headstones of granite with the name Lawrence are their only 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:23.639 literary hat tip. This is it right here. That's my folks, 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:27.040 and that's my grandparents. Um, what was your what was 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:31.960 your grandmother's name? Edna, Edna Goldie. I feel like in 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.840 order to understand the context of this story, we gotta 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.920 go way back. We're in a cemetery in western Arkansas, 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:44.920 the Lawrence Family Cemetery. What do you know about your 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:48.240 family history back in here? Well, the Lawrence has come 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:53.400 here from the East Kentucky. My dad was James Lawrence, 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:58.720 My granddad was James Dan Lawrence, and I'm James Edward Larnch. Now, 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.760 your grandma was a dear uter though, Oh yeah, Now 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:05.240 was that unusual for a woman to be a pretty 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.080 serious deer hunter or a real serious deer hunter like 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:12.560 she was? Was that unusual or was that comp a 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:16.960 little of both? A couple of her her sisters were 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.880 serious hunters, you know. And did they hunt because they 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.560 loved it? Or were they hunting for meat. It was 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.800 strictly for meat. You told me that your grandmother taught 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.200 you had a shock poucher deer, her and her brother. 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.599 Shock pouching is when you remove the lower leg bone 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.760 from the four legs of a deer, leaving the dew claws. 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.200 Then you criss cross the legs, tying them together and 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.200 effectively make backpack straps out of a deer so that 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.599 you can carry the deer out of the woods on 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.039 your back. Actually made a video of this that's on 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.599 the meat eater dot com called shock pouching that you 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.640 can see the whole thing that James taught me how 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:05.960 to do. Do you have any idea where that came from? 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:08.240 Just that's how they carried her out. Did they do it? 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.560 Just about every year? That's why they when you find 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:13.120 them and when they come out with him, that's the 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:14.880 whey they would beg they'd have it. They put off 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:17.920 tied in the nut and they'd carried them out physically. 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.200 You know what's pretty interesting to think about. To think 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:25.279 about the eighteen thirties seems like so long ago, But 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:28.880 if you think about it like this, you're seventy two. 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:34.800 You knew people that were. Your grandmother was born in 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:39.560 nineteen o nine, so she would have you know, her 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:43.600 grandparents would have been people that would have been here 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.159 in the eighteen thirties. So you think about like your 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:51.560 life was influenced by people whose lives were directly influenced 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:56.760 by people that had no technology, no cars, no phones, 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.960 like totally almost like primitive like. And so when you 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.200 think about it like that, like you're two steps away 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:10.560 from I mean, it's like in the scale of human 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:13.360 history for how long we've been here, that's like a blip. 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.400 I grew up in the same part of Arkansas as James, 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:21.520 but I didn't meet him until he was sixty two 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:26.599 years old and I was around thirty. His reputation preceded him, 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:28.279 and I was told he was one of the best 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:32.560 mountain deer hunters around. I got his address, drove to 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:36.400 his house, and knocked on his door cold turkey. I 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:40.440 introduced myself to a warm, humble, and rugged man who 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.440 opened the door. I received immediate credibility because of the 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:48.240 man who told me about him, a mutual friend of ours. 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.920 James's response was predictable of the mountain people. If he's 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:55.279 a friend of yours, then you're a friend of mine, 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.080 I told him I was writing an article about deer 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.240 hunting in the mountains of Arkansas. Our hunting culture has 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.920 gradually moved to being dominated by deer feeders and sacks 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:08.680 of corn. I'm not necessarily against feeding deer. I do 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:13.000 it myself some, but it has undisputably degraded the level 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:15.680 of knowledge about deer and deer hunting in the modern era. 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.320 I wanted to talk to an expert who hunted deer 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:23.880 in the mountains on public land. Something immediately told me 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:32.160 I had found one. His face was worn with deep 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.680 wrinkles that had clearly greeted the sun daily for decades. 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:38.080 I'd learned that he used to be a smoker, but 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:41.200 had quit for health reason some years ago. In his 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.880 early thirties, James was a game warden, but resigned after 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.680 a series of incidents, one of which involved him ticketing 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:52.080 a government official for a game violation, but he was 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.480 then later told to rescind the citation in a back 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:59.080 room meeting with a supervisor. The injustice was too much 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.680 for a man ray eased in the mountains who never 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:05.680 heard of silver spoons or the advantages of political hierarchy. 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:10.600 James made his living as a carpenter, stonemason, and cattle farmer. 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:13.720 He once built an entire complex of buildings in the 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.000 nineteen seventies. It was a mountain retreat center, and the 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.680 job called for four hundred tons of native stonework. James 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.480 spent years gathering the rocks by hand and doing the work. 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:28.320 In my mind, James is representative of the Mountain people, 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:34.120 hard working, humble, independent, leery of outsiders, but quick to 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:37.880 befriend you if friendship is offered. He doesn't seem to 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.560 lose a grudge too quickly, but to his friends he's 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:48.680 deeply loyal and sacrificial. On that first meeting with James 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:50.880 in two thousand and ten, I looked at a wall 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.160 of white tailed deer racks. The horns were screwed to 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:56.760 the sheet rock wall in his garage, and they were 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.280 all cut from the skull plate in the same way 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:01.840 I'd learned that his uncle showed him how to cut 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:04.240 the skull plates, so they set flat on the wall, 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:08.040 displaying the rack at a very particular and natural angle. 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:11.240 His uncle taught him to tan the hide and put 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:14.120 it back on the skull plate. Bucks that had been 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.400 off the hoof for fifty years still had their original hair. 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:21.920 They ranged in size from basket rack bucks to mature, 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:25.720 top notch white tales. For the region. One rack stood 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.480 out from the rest, and the yellowed horns looked old. 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:32.360 The hair on the skull plate was faded. Surely this 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.240 deer had a story. I walked to the rack and 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.320 touched its rough burrs, and I asked him about the deer. 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.680 I was amazed at the story that he began to 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:45.320 tell me. But before you hear the story directly from James, 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:49.080 you've got to understand the context. In the nineteen fifties 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.720 and sixties, deer numbers in Arkansas were low, and for 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.920 an even deeper look into the context, on December eighteenth, 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.920 nineteen oh seven, President Teddy Roosevelt created the Washington nash 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.000 No Forest, and prior to that the region had been 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:07.600 logged at a landscape level, meaning almost everything was cut. 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:10.920 With the trees went the wildlife in most of the 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:14.160 other big game, including bears, but don't get me started 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:17.320 on that. With the new management of the Forest Service, 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.840 by the nineteen fifties, the forests were recovering, but the 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:24.360 primary method of deer hunting the low density population was 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:28.439 with dogs. Using the dogs was a traditional and effective 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:32.280 method for rousing deer out of their layers, but very 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.320 few hunters at the time knew how to hunt deer 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:37.800 on their natural patterns. So when you hear this story, 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:42.000 I think you'll agree that it was an incredible feat, 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:49.800 especially for a young boy. When I was with my 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.600 uncle out here on weekend when we lived in town 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:56.760 at the time. All the weekends out here, Uh, he'd 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:01.959 give me a twenty two rifle, and ammunition was cheap. 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.240 And when I was out here, I was out wondering 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.920 the fields, and all of it was family owned. Right 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:12.400 here where we're sitting, the first sheds was probably a 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:18.040 hundred and fifty yards from where we're sitting, across the Costa, 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:21.880 the head waters of the Costa, and there they were 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:25.920 just together, touching each other, just laid right on top 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:27.400 of each other. They do on top each other. And 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:31.640 I couldn't I couldn't pick them up and run over 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.960 here and show them quick enough. And you would have been, uh, 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:37.920 you'd have been eleven years old. These first sheds you 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.280 found right here would have been in like nineteen fifty nine, 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.439 probably three years of sheds and then the bucks of 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:48.240 fifty nine, sixties, sixty one, and sixty two. You killed 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:52.040 the deer, so you found this, these sheds just right there. 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.319 You pointed out to me a cedar tree that they 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.319 were laying by, And that was during a time when 0:11:56.360 --> 0:12:03.240 there there weren't deering these mountains. During that time, James's 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.720 family would go off to deer camp, but James rarely went. 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.920 He'd stay home and wander around alone on his home place, 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:14.319 shooting squirrels and rabbits with his twenty two. These early 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.520 solo hunts would set a track for his future hunting, 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.240 but it also brings up the question why I wasn't 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:25.480 he included in these family outings. I was one of 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.480 the only ones that was out drashing through the woods 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.040 and through the fields and the thickets for the rabbits 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:35.079 and squirrels. I was jumping deer. You know. I couldn't 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.840 explain it to them because they I was jumping deer 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.640 all the time, and they were going off dog hunting 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:44.400 and they're occasionally killing deer, and the family wouldn't seeing it. 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.000 They wouldn't follow me around, and I would try to 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:48.760 tell him what I've seen, and I know it's hard 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.680 to believe. They were off, scattered out hunting and they're 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.680 not seeing anything. They come in and I've got these stories. 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:59.240 Well they wasn't interesting in my stories. I mean it really, 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.439 here's the here's the bigger question. Why weren't you hunting 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.080 with them? They I went with my granddad and sat 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:08.240 on a stand freeze to death. We'd build a little 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.160 bitty fire if we're just stay warm. And he was 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.240 waiting on the dogs to run a deer by us. 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.520 Why would it accuse us when there's standards everywhere. We 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.920 would occasionally see deer, but I could stay home and 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.319 I could just walk down the fence rows and I 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.200 could see dere So you started really learning from a 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.840 young age how to hunt these deer. Well, it was 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:33.240 just from being out. So you saw him. I saw him. 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:37.319 I saw him twice. So you came back and told 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.920 your family, I saw a big buck, and I know 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:47.120 I had excitement. I was excited all over. After James 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:49.720 found the first set of sheds the next fall, he 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.120 actually saw the buck hard horn. He shared the sighting 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:56.079 with his family, but you can guess the response that 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:59.120 he got a little kid claiming to have seen a 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:03.800 giant buck. He was dismissed, you know. I mean it's 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:05.880 hard to visualize that thing when I was a kid 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:10.720 seeing the buck of that, yeah, standing a broadside, nothing 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.640 between me and at me. With the twenty two, I 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:16.960 couldn't go any further. I had to come tell somebody, 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.640 which was my uncle. And I don't know I would 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.960 have got excited if eleven year old kids come up 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.080 and told me what they've just seen in excitement. Uh, 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.880 it just didn't seem to They kind of dismissed you. Well, 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:36.240 it just feels it hurt my feeling. But I had proof, 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:42.840 you know. So that second year, so you find these sheds, 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:46.440 and just to give people a context, that first year sheds, 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:51.200 I think I scored it in the high one forties, 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.480 one fifties. I mean, so this is not a small deer, 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.280 especially for the late nineteen fifties and the Washtaw Mountains. 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.360 I mean, this is like a major your dear, So 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.840 you come back with the sheds the second year, you're 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:07.120 you're you, How did you find the second set of 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:11.200 sheds the same way I had my twenty two and 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.440 it was right over here. I was stumbling around, I 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:15.800 was squirrel hunting up the road, and I was going 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.320 up that dark I called it dark hollow. There's a 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:20.120 holler where the road and makes a sharp bend, and 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:23.640 I'd go up that hollar on rocks basically where I 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:27.200 could slip up. And you're at the squirrel barking, and 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:32.119 and I was on my way back come around and basically, oh, 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.360 all but inside of where we're sitting right now, coming down. 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:40.200 So you pick up the second year sheds of this buck. Yeah, 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.600 the third year. Tell me how you found those horns? 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.840 Same way? How was that stumbling? Where was where was that? 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:51.200 They were separate? They were on up the head of Costa. 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.680 The Costa Tot is a fast flowing eighty nine mile 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:00.040 long river in western Arkansas that flows out of the 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:04.000 Southern Wash. It toss its headwaters basically start on the 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:08.600 Lawrence family homestead. The word costatat is a Native American 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:13.040 word that roughly translates into skull crusher. It's known for 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:16.920 its rapids further down the river. Hey, in the third 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.720 set of sheds, I scored that deer, given it the 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.760 same spread credit as the actual deer in that dear 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.680 gross scored over a hundred seventy. I mean so this 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.080 is in the in the now, we're into the early 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:34.440 nineteen sixties, and so I mean, this is a this 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.800 is a gross one seventy plus typical. And you have 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:41.360 found third years. She has. And I want to say 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:44.520 something like people in the Midwest today, in farm country, 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.480 they'll have history with deer. You know, they'll find two 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:51.040 or three years the sheds of a buck down here. 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.760 In the nineteen fifties and sixties, that was unheard of. 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.760 It was now the fall of nineteen sixty two. James 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:02.880 was now thirteen years old, and he'd collected three years 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.760 a giant sheds of a buck almost within sight of 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.440 his house. He'd been dismissed by many of the hunters 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:13.119 and his family, but things were about to change. And 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:18.720 so tell me, tell me about that day. Wow, a 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:23.240 typical deer season day. I'd been roaming around jumping deer, 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:28.520 as was typical. James stayed home and hunted while his 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:31.800 family went off to deer camp. He had a stand 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.920 at a deer crossing that he'd often go and sit 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.040 most of the day. By stand, he didn't mean a 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:40.919 tree stand. It was a stump that he set on. 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.600 Family loaded up and was going. I was out of 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.679 school that day. Family went over and they let me 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:53.280 stay home because of I've been telling them what I'm saying. 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:55.760 You know, they were off hunting, and that was what 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.000 I did. I went up and said on that stand 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.239 because it was basically acrossing for year. And this was 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:05.080 with my new thirty thirty marline. I said to lunch 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:07.440 time and I was at top of the hill eating 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.119 lunch at our house where we lived, looking down on 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:12.240 the field and I seen a dough down in the 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:14.320 field while I was taking a breaking. I hadn't seen 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:17.440 anything at that time. It was a big deal to 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:23.080 see it. Dear. Yeah, I had my sandwich, walked back 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.159 down the road. I got caught and it was a 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.080 It was a local person asking me if I've seen 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:31.120 any dogs or picked up any dogs, or hurt any 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.520 dogs or whatever. Standing there talking to him. They were 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:36.560 gonna pick up and I looked across the foot of 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:40.240 the truck out in that field while we were talking, 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:47.160 I could visualize and I could see horns up above 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.000 safe grass. This is you're looking across the hood at 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:53.560 this vi here exactly while talking to him, I was 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:55.880 looking at for that dough. I didn't tell him about 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.639 the dough. I didn't fasten any information anyway. I didn't 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.199 say anything to them, but I kind of wanted them 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:04.399 to go on, and they did. I went on around 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.439 like I always do, get in that stand setting up 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:09.639 there in that little cap. I get up there and 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:13.080 sitting down, and I started thinking about that there did 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:17.480 I don't really see. I get up and slipped down 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:19.679 and had a fence to cross to get in that field. 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.960 I slipped down there and a dog jumped up. Man, 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:26.159 it got me excited. And the dog went out in 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:29.520 the middle of the field and I've seen a movement 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:33.920 and here was here was a ship buck just come 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.320 up out of that sage grass and looked at me. 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:38.359 He was in it bed. He stood up out of 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.399 the grass and he was standing up, raring up to 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:43.440 get up. When I shot the first time, and you 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:45.240 hit him the first time. I hit him the first time, 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:53.600 but you jacked another shellacked another shell, hit him again, disappeared, 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:58.119 he went down. What did you feel like when you 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:00.439 walked up to that buck? I'd I don't know how 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:04.159 to describe it. I still remember the excitement, but you 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.440 know it was I didn't know what to do. James 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:10.399 set and admired the shed buck for a while, but 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:13.159 ended up going home to wait on the return of 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:17.040 his family from deer hunting. Taking to consideration that this 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.520 was the biggest buck anybody in the family would have 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:23.120 ever seen, and if James could forecast in the future, 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.320 he'd see that it would likely be the biggest buck 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:29.600 he'd ever kill in his life. You'd think he'd get 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.640 a good response. And I, you know, we talked about 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:36.000 it before. I didn't get the response that I was. 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.159 You know, they walked up on it, the deer was 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:43.480 laying there, they feel dressed a deer, and we drug 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.160 it out. And you know, I've got pictures of when 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:48.119 I was a kid holding my dad's deer. Don't There 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.760 wasn't no picture taking. There wasn't know, so they didn't 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:56.600 celebrate with you. There wasn't a celebration. My uncle took 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:58.480 the horns, like I showed you different ones that he 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:00.960 took it, cut the horns off and put the skin 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:05.240 back around it and put it on a board it 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:07.480 And that would have been the biggest deer that any 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:11.440 of these guys had ever seen. Obviously, you know, my 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.119 dad killed several deer, but they wouldn't nothing, because James, 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:19.440 you've been hunting right in here since nineteen or late 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:23.840 nineteen fifties, so that's over sixty years, and this is 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:27.000 the biggest buck that you've killed this day. And you've 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:31.960 probably killed over a hundred white tails since then. Well 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:36.280 over that. Yeah, what I meant to say was that 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.119 he's killed over a hundred mature mountain bucks on public 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:43.720 land without bait, most without trail cameras, in the majority 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:47.480 of them from the ground while still hunting. James would 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:51.080 become a master at hunting the mountains of Arkansas. He 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.320 hunted out of tree stands, but he loved to still 0:21:54.440 --> 0:22:01.000 hunt the buck. I I scored it this deer, James. 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:03.800 This is what I love about you is that you 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.960 never had that deer scored you. You never even cared 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:10.520 what it scored. And then I think in two thousand 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:13.440 and ten, I saw the deer and I said, hey, 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:15.800 we gotta score that deer, and you were like, yeah, 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:18.200 let's see what it scored. And I scored that dear, 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:22.639 GROWTH scored it right at a hundred sixty inches. The 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:26.520 buck was starting to go downhill. The prior year he 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:30.359 grows scored a hundred and seventy inches. I can't express 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:33.879 what an incredible feat this would be to kill a 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:37.639 hundred and sixty inch deer at any time by anybody, 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:41.040 but even more so in nineteen sixty two by a 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:44.960 thirteen year old boy. I asked James how killing the 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:50.480 buck affected the trajectory of his hunting. Two times before that, 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:54.720 I went to the dog camp the deer deer season 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:57.040 for the It was a camp house. It was a 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:01.520 relative old home place. How was still standing? That was 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:07.680 the camp My granddad's brother. He was always off still hunting. 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:11.879 Twice he invited me to go. My uncle invited me 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:13.720 to go with him, and he started showing me we 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:18.760 didn't the amazing part of him when a't odd ball 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:21.160 in the family, just kind of done things different than 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:25.119 the rest of the boys did. They had hunting dogs 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:27.600 and he didn't have any. He didn't go to set 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:30.159 on the deer stand like the rest of them. He 0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:33.679 would go off a different direction. But the thing that 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:37.560 really I tried all my life to do, he started 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:39.680 hunting when he took the first step off the road, 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:42.600 and when he get inside of the road, he didn't 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:45.000 quit hunting. He when he stepped back in the road 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:48.040 is when he quit hunting. M when he stepped in 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:50.920 the woods. He was hunting. Even in the first time 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:54.040 we left across the road from the cabin over the 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:56.760 house where the deer camp was at with all the 0:23:56.800 --> 0:23:59.719 barking dogs and the people and excitement and stuff. And 0:23:59.760 --> 0:24:02.600 we started hunting the minute we stepped off the road 0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:05.080 across from cabin. And he taught you how to track there. 0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:09.120 And the man could track a deer, just go through 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:11.639 the woods and find a track and could stay on it, 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:14.359 and and where every time I went like mud, this 0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:18.800 is like Lee rock piles, right, he's tracking deer, and 0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:22.160 he's tracking deer. And most of the time I had 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:24.239 to step in the same tracks that he stepped as 0:24:24.240 --> 0:24:28.159 he slipped through in it. You know, sometimes Clay, we 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:30.679 wouldn't go thirty yards, and I swear it was thirty minutes. 0:24:32.040 --> 0:24:34.480 And in other times we would travel a little bit faster. 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:37.199