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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Stefan never told you a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And this is going to be one of our last

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Speaker 2: Star Wars classics.

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Speaker 1: For a little bit.

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Speaker 2: So just a little bit, because there are a couple

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Speaker 2: of big anniversaries happening right now. As I said, it's

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Speaker 2: the fortieth anniversary of Returned the Jedi, the forty fifth

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Speaker 2: anniversary of a New Hope. There's been a lot of

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Speaker 2: celebrations around that. I've seen a lot of good articles

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Speaker 2: and tweets, so I'm just like having other time of

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Speaker 2: my life. And I also read a really good article

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Speaker 2: I want to come back to you, thanks to my

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Speaker 2: friend Barry who sent it to me from tours. That's

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Speaker 2: called you All Forgot that Luke Skywalker is the Goat.

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Speaker 1: And I read it and.

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Speaker 2: I was like, this is what I've never been able

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Speaker 2: to articulate it, but it was like really succinctly put

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Speaker 2: in my thoughts about like the Han Solo Luke Skywalker situation.

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Speaker 1: So I want to come back and talk about that later.

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Speaker 1: And it was just a fun read. It was just fun.

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Speaker 1: That's what I like.

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Speaker 2: I like when fandom can be like let's have a

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Speaker 2: good conversation about this and kind of make these really

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Speaker 2: nerdy jokes and references. And I'm having a lot of

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Speaker 2: that right now, so I'm very happy. But all of

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Speaker 2: that being said, I wanted to bring back this classic

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Speaker 2: at the time.

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Speaker 1: It's a feminist movie. Wednesday. It will be a Saturday.

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Speaker 2: Probably when this one comes out on the original Star

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Speaker 2: Wars trilogy, So please enjoy. Hey, this is Sanny and

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Speaker 2: Samantha and I love from the Stefan Never Told You

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Speaker 2: production of iHeart Radio and happy Revenge of the Fifth.

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Speaker 2: If you thought one Star Wars holiday was too much,

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Speaker 2: how about you, Bair we are Yes, I love Revenge

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Speaker 2: of the Fifth the name right. I do feel bad

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Speaker 2: because today is also, as this episode comes out, if

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Speaker 2: you're listening to it, when it comes out, my little

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Speaker 2: brother's birthday, and I'm ashamed to admit I thought about

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Speaker 2: Revenge of the Fifth first and then his birthday. But

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Speaker 2: to be fair, I once asked him. This was years

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Speaker 2: and years ago, but I once asked him name my birthday?

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Speaker 1: But when is it?

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Speaker 2: He said March seventh, So that's way, way way off.

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Speaker 2: That's he's not even close.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I know any of my siblings' birth

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Speaker 3: Oh that's not true. I know two of my siblings' birthday,

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Speaker 3: so the third one.

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Speaker 4: Sorry. I don't even know my parents' birthday really well.

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Speaker 3: My dad's I finally figured it out, and my mom's

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Speaker 3: with hers with four days after mine.

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Speaker 4: So I'm not really good with days either.

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Speaker 1: I am excellent with dates. I know you why. It

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Speaker 1: is one of my weird things.

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Speaker 2: In fact, there's that weird moment, like I know a

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Speaker 2: lot of people use Facebook for birthdays, but I usually

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Speaker 2: just kind of remember, there are friends I haven't talked

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Speaker 2: to you in forever, and I'll be like, oh, her

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Speaker 2: birthday is today? Should I? And then I feel like

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Speaker 2: it's weird if you haven't talked in a long time, right.

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Speaker 3: I have one person who I kind of mentioned her

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Speaker 3: a little bit when we were talking about the Girl Games,

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Speaker 3: essentially the board games that we had, because she was

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Speaker 3: the rich friend I had who had all the games.

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Speaker 4: I know her birthday.

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Speaker 3: I know it so well, and I just I don't

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Speaker 3: know why and I haven't talked to her in twenty years.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes those things just get washed in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like Revenge of the Fifth is a

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Speaker 2: relatively newer because I remember May the Fourth being around

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Speaker 2: when I was in high school, probably before that. But

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Speaker 2: Revenge of the Fifth I've only really become aware of

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Speaker 2: in the past few years. I don't know if I

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Speaker 2: was just missing it like the last four years.

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Speaker 4: I think I figured out what it was.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm, I mean it's right there though, it's.

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Speaker 3: Right it is, But think about it for me, like

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Speaker 3: in syncs, it's going to be may That's the meme

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Speaker 3: that I see in my head time of thing. Those

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Speaker 3: are the things I know, sing de Mayo, which is

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Speaker 3: a complete excuse for white people to get real trashed

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Speaker 3: celebrating something that's not theirs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.

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Speaker 2: Well today we are celebrating something different, alright. Yes, So

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Speaker 2: this is a feminist movie Wednesday, to be on the holiday.

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Speaker 2: This has been a very busy week for me as

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Speaker 2: a Star Wars. So you can see the past up

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Speaker 2: said we did on the prequel trilogy, because these are

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Speaker 2: a bit different than our normal feminist movie Fridays, where

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Speaker 2: we pick one movie and do like themes and plot analysis.

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Speaker 2: This is much more like kind of focusing in on

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Speaker 2: one character. However, and you might remember that we did

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Speaker 2: not one, but two episodes on Princess Leah already and

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Speaker 2: they were quite long, both of them, so you can

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Speaker 2: go find those if you want. We are going to

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Speaker 2: talk about some more about her and this, but we're

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Speaker 2: also going to talk about two women you might not

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Speaker 2: be familiar with who were vital to making these movies,

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Speaker 2: and I'm really really excited to talk about them. We've

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Speaker 2: also done an episode on We've done a lot of

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Speaker 2: episodes on Star Wars. We've done one of the viewing

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Speaker 2: of it. We've done one on the feminism of Star Wars.

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Speaker 2: We're going to do one on the sequel trilogy. They're

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Speaker 2: out there. We were talking about getting Holly on here

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Speaker 2: to talk about Rogue one, which I think would be fantastic.

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Speaker 4: I think we should.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I totally think we should.

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Speaker 4: I think I could just sit back and drink while

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Speaker 4: y'all do that.

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Speaker 3: Except for when I yelled experts at you for not

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Speaker 3: telling me and warning me of things.

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Speaker 1: Of the ending.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I bet Holly would give me a stern talking

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Speaker 2: to as well. Actually it was a complete it. There

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Speaker 2: was nothing malicious behind it. I just get in my

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Speaker 2: own head sometimes and don't realize people don't know everything

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Speaker 2: about Star.

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Speaker 3: Wars, as well as the fact that I am not

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Speaker 3: about tragedy, and so I have to give a heads up.

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Speaker 3: And as for most people, normal people would be like,

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Speaker 3: I don't like spoiler little, I need all of them.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yes, well, I've learned my lesson and I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to do better.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to do better.

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Speaker 4: You've done well. You've done well. That is the one big,

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Speaker 4: a forgivable one, Oh, unforgivable. Now we'll see.

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Speaker 2: Well, the unforgivable part doesn't have it for now usually,

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Speaker 2: but all.

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Speaker 3: Right, I'm just saying, right now, it seems like it's

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Speaker 3: gonna be far, far, far.

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Speaker 1: Far away, like a certain galaxy. I see you did there.

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Speaker 2: You can also listen to me and Holly talk about

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Speaker 2: the Empire strikes back on movie Crush, which, if you

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Speaker 2: want to hear like the most beautiful passionate nerdom that

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Speaker 2: you might not understand. It's for you. We're going to

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Speaker 2: do Return of the Jedi soon. I hope. I've already

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Speaker 2: got my outline. It's ready, it's ready. I think the

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Speaker 2: host of that show, Chuck is a little like, oh

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Speaker 2: he remembers you do forget. He won't forget, he won't

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Speaker 2: forget what and we're like, Chuck, we're talking. Also, I

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Speaker 2: forgot to bring up this when we did the prequels,

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Speaker 2: which I think is actually a really good when we

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Speaker 2: were talking about the trauma and grooming of Anakin Skywalker

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Speaker 2: to become Darth Vader. Point is that a couple of

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Speaker 2: years ago, I was at Dragon Con, which is this

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Speaker 2: huge convention in Atlanta, and it was the panel of

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Speaker 2: voice actors and this young boy I would say like

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Speaker 2: four years old came up during the Q and A

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Speaker 2: portion and he asked, why is Darth Vader?

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Speaker 1: And we were all like, oh.

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Speaker 2: How do we explain like evil and temptation and all

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Speaker 2: this stuff to this kid? And I brought this up

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Speaker 2: to my co host Lauren on Saber Podcast and she

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Speaker 2: said something like he is the result of many systems

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Speaker 2: of society failing so hard, which I really appreciated and

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Speaker 2: was like, Yeah, that's that's it, So let's get into

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Speaker 2: this episode. But again, we've done a lot on Princess Lea.

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Speaker 2: We've talked a lot about Star Wars, so very brief

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Speaker 2: discussion of the plot. Essentially, the Evil Empire is terrorizing

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Speaker 2: a galaxy far far away, and a young human female

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Speaker 2: Princess Leah played by Kerrie Fisher, is one of the

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Speaker 2: political and military leaders of the ragtag group fighting against it,

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Speaker 2: called the Rebellion or the Alliance. Falls in love with

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Speaker 2: a smuggler, learned she has a twin brother who happens

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Speaker 2: to be your best friend, and they were separated at birth.

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Speaker 2: Discovers her father's actually Darth Vader, a man who tortured her,

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Speaker 2: destroyed her homeworld, and is the right hand of the

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Speaker 2: fascist entity she's been fighting her whole life. Oh, and

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Speaker 2: she can use the Force, which is this power that

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Speaker 2: you can connect to her cause is victorious. The Rebellion,

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Speaker 2: the Alliance is victorious. She gets the guy, she's reunited

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Speaker 2: with her twin happy ending if you do not go

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Speaker 2: beyond that very end of Return of the Jedi.

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Speaker 1: Happy ending.

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Speaker 3: So the first installment came out in nineteen seventy seven.

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Speaker 3: Star Wars later renamed episode four A New Hope which

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Speaker 3: confused me a lot, followed by episode five, The Empire

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Speaker 3: Strikes Back in nineteen eighty in episode six, the Return

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Speaker 3: of the Jedi in nineteen eighty three, and these films

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Speaker 3: had a huge cultural impact. You can tell, sometimes called

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Speaker 3: the American myth If you want to know more about

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Speaker 3: just how enormous of an impact they had, again, check

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Speaker 3: out our Laya episodes, both of them, all of them,

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Speaker 3: any of them. It's not exaggerating to say they changed

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Speaker 3: our cultural landscape and film forever.

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Speaker 4: And Annie, I know you're already going.

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Speaker 3: Through all of your lists of how many times Star

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Speaker 3: Wars is referenced, and I now have that in the

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Speaker 3: back of my head all the time too.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I keep it for that tally every day of

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Speaker 2: how many times I encounter Star Wars reference that I'm

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Speaker 2: not looking for.

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Speaker 1: It's usually between fifteen to twenty five.

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Speaker 3: I want to say, I just recently watched a movie

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Speaker 3: just May not long ago. There was a reference and

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Speaker 3: I was like, what what I know that reference? I

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Speaker 3: will say, since now I've seen the movie, going back

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Speaker 3: now that.

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Speaker 4: I know that reference, are like, oh, there it is.

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Speaker 4: I get it.

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Speaker 3: So Leah Organa's impact was obviously massive two, especially for

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Speaker 3: girls and women, and impact that it is still felt

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Speaker 3: and seeing to this day. I see those pictures of

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Speaker 3: Carrie Fisher and I'm just like, yes, give me more

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Speaker 3: of that. I look at the signs of pretty much

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Speaker 3: any woman's protests. Again, yes, you see her as the

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Speaker 3: center of rebellion. There are very very few other iconic

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Speaker 3: women characters that have had the lasting impact even close.

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Speaker 4: To her, so yes, for sure, and she's.

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Speaker 3: Appeared in numerous books, comics, video games, and television shows.

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Speaker 2: Leah was the only character mentioned by name in the

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Speaker 2: opening crawl, so that yeah, yellow text iconic killow text

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Speaker 2: is going up. She's the only one in episode four,

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Speaker 2: and it's almost immediately established that despite her young age,

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Speaker 2: she is a trouble maker for the evil Empire. She

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Speaker 2: sets the action the original trilogy and motion. She says

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Speaker 2: death in the eyes and does not flinch. In fact,

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Speaker 2: has some witty comments. She regularly does not bend to

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Speaker 2: mal expectations, especially those expectations around women in the film.

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Speaker 2: Vader expects her to give under torture, she doesn't. Tarkan

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Speaker 2: expects her to break when threatening her planet, and she doesn't.

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Speaker 2: Luke expects her to be a damsel in distress demure,

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Speaker 2: and she isn't. Hahn expects her to fall for his

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Speaker 2: charm and take his lead. Nope, she doesn't. And as

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Speaker 2: the audience, we didn't expect this young, petite princess to

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Speaker 2: be the leader against the fight against the Empire, especially

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Speaker 2: when these movies came out, and she is she is

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Speaker 2: the leader. She is the one that is getting stuff done.

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Speaker 2: Lost after loss, she soldiers on. She is already the

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Speaker 2: hero when we meet her, respected by those around her,

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Speaker 2: and Empire strikes back. Right from the start, we see

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Speaker 2: her commanding troops and overseeing the evacuation of the entire

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Speaker 2: rebellion as the Empire the forces that tortured her destroyed

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Speaker 2: at her home planet attack. And when I was a kid,

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Speaker 2: that seemed really stuck out to me that there was

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Speaker 2: this kind of small woman who was commanding mostly men

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Speaker 2: and they were just like, Okay, yep, we trust you,

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Speaker 2: We're going to do what you say. She is a

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Speaker 2: part of the planning and action throughout these films. She's

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Speaker 2: determined to do everything she can for the cause that

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Speaker 2: she believes in, and all these things while still remaining feminine.

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Speaker 2: When these films came out, it was the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 2: so yeah, women's lib you had Roe v.

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Speaker 1: Wade, and then the backlash to all of that.

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Speaker 2: Women weren't allowed to serve in the US Army when

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Speaker 2: this came out, and she is for the most part

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Speaker 2: the only woman in these films, but she speaks her mind,

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Speaker 2: refuses to back down. She rises above being the token woman.

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Speaker 2: And I will say Carrie Fisher was a huge part

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Speaker 2: of that. You can see our Princess Leigh episodes, but

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Speaker 2: she was really like I know, I think the character

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Speaker 2: would do this, it's like this, let me rewrite stuff

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Speaker 2: for you.

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Speaker 1: So she was really key.

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Speaker 2: Notably, man Mathma, one of the only other women in

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Speaker 2: the original trilogy, is also a leader of the Alliance,

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Speaker 2: but you only see her very briefly. She does pop

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Speaker 2: up in other Star Wars properties, but in this original

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Speaker 2: trilogy you see her for like a minute maybe, so

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Speaker 2: believe it or not, there were a few aspects of

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Speaker 2: Lea's character I did not get to touch on in

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Speaker 2: our two parter episode on her.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, I had to limit herr y'all.

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Speaker 1: She limited me on this one too, I did.

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Speaker 2: I have even more thoughts, but most of these thoughts

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Speaker 2: I've had reading.

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Speaker 1: The entire yeah, the entire current comics series.

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Speaker 2: But there are elements that are present in the film

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Speaker 2: that you just get to explore more in the comics,

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Speaker 2: and I thought it could be interesting to do some comparisons.

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Speaker 2: Now that we've talked about Padme Amidala in the prequel

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Speaker 2: trilogy feminist movie Friday, who is Leya's biological mother.

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Speaker 3: Right, So, one aspect that they explore in the comics

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Speaker 3: is this idea of ruthlessness or what it takes for

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Speaker 3: Leya to lead the rebellion, a rebellion that is and

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Speaker 3: struggling and constantly on the verge of being destroyed.

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Speaker 4: There's a storyline where Leahs chooses to.

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Speaker 3: Sacrifice Luke and yes, and he has told me this

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Speaker 3: virginal lot.

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Speaker 4: She has a lot of feelings on this that.

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Speaker 3: They don't have the speeder's despair in order to kill

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Speaker 3: Darth Vader. She herself is willing to die if it

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Speaker 3: kills him too. Han is appalled and yes, he's the

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Speaker 3: one with the emotions in this part, right, and goes

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Speaker 3: to save Luke and Leah later decide come back for them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I do have a lot of thoughts about this,

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Speaker 1: she does. There are a couple of things going on here.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, there are a lot of reasons Leyah would want

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Speaker 2: revenge against Darth Vader, and she is still dealing with

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Speaker 2: a massive trauma. On top of that, she's very young

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Speaker 2: and trying to lead rebellion, this constantly on the brink

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Speaker 2: of extinction, so she has to make these tough calls.

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Speaker 1: Leah is all about the cause.

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Speaker 2: We talked about that how it's like Luca's playing personal

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Speaker 2: checkers and she's playing like galactic chess. She's much more

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Speaker 2: thinking about this bigger picture of how to defeat the empire,

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Speaker 2: and lucas more on this personal path of discovery. But

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Speaker 2: also this whole thing is a part of her arc,

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Speaker 2: learning to accept those softer parts of herself, allowing herself

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Speaker 2: to be more open and caring to go after what

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Speaker 2: she wants or even admit she has personal needs and

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Speaker 2: that that is okay.

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Speaker 3: As I'm watching the Rebels and she's introduced, and Ezra

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Speaker 3: is just a dick the entire time to her, So

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Speaker 3: I guess I'm pushing that button on purpose to make.

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Speaker 4: That whole idea.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like Ezra in that case, they're trying

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Speaker 2: very hard to be like he's got a lot to learn.

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Speaker 4: Oh okay, Well, going back to the story arc.

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Speaker 3: In that same storyline, Luke crashed the ships into vaders

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Speaker 3: in an attempt to kill him, so well, he's willing

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Speaker 3: to die, and Leah saved him. From imperial capture and

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Speaker 3: bounty hunters on more than one occasion. We know this,

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Speaker 3: and in the comics we see Leiah making alliances with

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Speaker 3: several strong women who are sometimes at best morally ambiguous,

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Speaker 3: like Afra, who we just saw us. She has a

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Speaker 3: nemesis who is a woman, and she connects with a

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Speaker 3: woman struggling with her people, only to be betrayed and

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Speaker 3: the Lion's losing a devastating amount because of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a real bummer. She was like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm connecting to you. I also feel this way when

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Speaker 2: I was a prison at the water around in the

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Speaker 2: trade every time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, and that woman's storyline was complicated as well. Not

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Speaker 2: to flatten it, she had a lot she was dealing with.

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Speaker 2: You and Eacht I forgot there's a whole part in

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Speaker 2: the comic. So she's looking up at the night sky

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Speaker 2: and she can still see alder On because the explosion,

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Speaker 2: the light the explosion hasn't reached her so much trauma.

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Speaker 2: There are a couple of other instances showcasing the darker

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Speaker 2: side of Leah as a leader, things that seem cruel

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Speaker 2: or ruthless to the other characters in the story, which

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Speaker 2: could open up a whole discussion on how we view

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Speaker 2: women leaders, because I think a man doing the same things.

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Speaker 1: Might not be I don't know. I don't know that

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Speaker 1: they would be seen the same way.

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Speaker 2: They might be applauded as a man making a tough call,

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Speaker 2: whereas with a woman it might be she's a cruel

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Speaker 2: ice queen.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: And also, to be clear, I have read all these comics,

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Speaker 2: some of them twice, but generally most of them once,

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Speaker 2: so it's a lot of information to take in Samantha

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Speaker 2: in general. I do appreciate that Leah doesn't shy away

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Speaker 2: from her emotions, including less feminine coded ones like anger,

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Speaker 2: but also she doesn't shy away from the feminid coded

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Speaker 2: ones while really mastering that emotionless mask.

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Speaker 1: She's really good at that too.

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Speaker 2: Something else that is explored in the comics are all

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Speaker 2: always Leah shaped at the responsibilities of being a princess,

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Speaker 2: and how the press always reduced her to that label,

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Speaker 2: no matter what she did, the wardrobe, the hair, the expectations.

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Speaker 2: She once said to one of her aunts who was

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Speaker 2: teaching her etiquette quote, being a princess had to be

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Speaker 2: about more than silently doing one's duty, and I'm pretty

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Speaker 2: sure the aunt said something like nope, that's almost all

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Speaker 2: it is. She was a dup as a baby and

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Speaker 2: raised as a princess by bail and Brea Organa to

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Speaker 2: keep her hidden from the Emperor and Darth Vader. From

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Speaker 2: a young age, she rebelled and protested against things she

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Speaker 2: saw as unjust, as well as showed an aptitude for politics.

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Speaker 2: Like her biological mother. She became a senator as a teenager.

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Speaker 2: She received training in self defense and marksmanship and started

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Speaker 2: working with the rebellion at a young age. She is

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Speaker 2: a tomboy in a lot of ways and expressed a

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Speaker 2: fear at being married off.

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Speaker 1: That was an interesting thing.

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Speaker 2: I thought they explored a fear that caused her to

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Speaker 2: run away more than once. Leia did not fit the

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Speaker 2: mold of a princess, so when we first hear her,

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Speaker 2: she looks very much the part of a princess. And

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Speaker 2: also just a note, I know this is confusing, and

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Speaker 2: when Disney bought Star Wars, there's now two. There's like

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Speaker 2: the old canon, which is legends and abandoned, and then

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Speaker 2: new canon, which is official Disney canon. They still use

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Speaker 2: some stuff from the Legends canon in the cannon, but

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Speaker 2: they can get really confusing. But this is mostly Disney canon.

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Speaker 3: Okay, then, yeah, and something except for and could be

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Speaker 3: a whole episode on its own about how young women

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Speaker 3: were and are treated in the entertainment industry and the

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Speaker 3: impacts of the treatment when it comes to things like

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Speaker 3: drug abuse and mental health, and how we take that

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Speaker 3: seriously or don't and often outright market and women.

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Speaker 4: And we've seen that.

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Speaker 3: And we kind of talked about that about the women

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Speaker 3: of the nineties episodes, but yeah, that should be a

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Speaker 3: whole conversation because we do see that in reference to

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Speaker 3: not only Carrie Fisher, but she was mocked I think

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Speaker 3: more than even Mark Hamill.

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Speaker 4: And as you told me, the things.

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Speaker 3: That were happening on the holiday special that made it obvious. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so some people were altered.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, there's just a lot of when she's been

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Speaker 2: she's written about her experience, and there's just a lot

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Speaker 2: of instances where you're like, wow, this is not a

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Speaker 2: good situation for a really young woman to be right.

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Speaker 2: So I definitely think that something we could revisit, But

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Speaker 2: for now, we wanted to talk about some women who

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Speaker 2: worked behind the scenes on these movies.

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Speaker 1: But first we're going to pause real quick bick for

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Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsored.

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Speaker 2: Since we have talked about lay a lot in the past,

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Speaker 2: even though I could go on and on and on,

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Speaker 2: clearly we thought we would highlight some important contributions women

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Speaker 2: made to these movies you may not know about, starting

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Speaker 2: with Marshall Lucas. You may have heard people say Star

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Speaker 2: Wars was saved in the edit and they're talking about

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Speaker 2: a New Hope episode four. One of those editors was

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Speaker 2: Marshall Lucas, George Lucas's ex wife. Marsha was born in

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Speaker 2: California in nineteen forty five. She studied chemistry in college,

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Speaker 2: but through her work as a film librarian, she found

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Speaker 2: a love of film editing. After the previous editor left

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Speaker 2: George Lucas's nineteen seventy three film American Graffiti, he was

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Speaker 2: really struggling with the structure of it. Marcia, who he

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Speaker 2: had worked with previously they had gotten married in nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty nine, stepped in and got to work editing scenes,

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Speaker 2: combining them, doing away with some Altogether. The original runtime

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Speaker 2: was three and a half hours long. She got it

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Speaker 2: down to an hour and fifty minutes Dang Yeah. The

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Speaker 2: finished product was critically acclaimed and resonated with audiences. Marsha

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Speaker 2: received an Oscar nomination for her editing on that Martin

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Speaker 2: Scorsese took notice, and Marsha worked with him on three

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Speaker 2: films Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, Taxi Driver, and New York,

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Speaker 2: New York.

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Speaker 4: Right But First. George Lucas did.

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Speaker 3: Not hire Marcia to work on Star Wars, but he

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Speaker 3: eventually asked her to replace one of the mel editors,

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Speaker 3: and she also helped with story elements as George was writing.

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Speaker 3: She was the one to suggest that oe Wan Kenobi

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Speaker 3: died at the hands of Darth Vader, which is hugely

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Speaker 3: emotional and EmPATH moment for the audience and obviously for Luke,

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Speaker 3: although he does move on pretty quickly. She reassembled the

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Speaker 3: climactic Death Star Trench sequence so that it built tension

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Speaker 3: and provided a satisfying conclusion and one of the most

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Speaker 3: iconic and well loved moments of the film. I definitely

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Speaker 3: knew about that before I watched it, and in the

439
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 3: original version which you can still find, Luke took two

440
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 3: runs at the trench and it was too long and

441
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 3: not very satisfying. She almost completely reordered it. For her

442
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 3: work on this film, she won the nineteen seventy eight

443
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 3: Best Editing Academy Award along with two other editors, and

444
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 3: Marshall was sometimes called George Lucas's quote secret weapon.

445
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 2: In a nineteen seventy seven interview, George said, I was

446
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 2: struggling with a problem that I had this sort of

447
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 2: climactic scene that had no climax about two thirds of

448
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,440
Speaker 2: the way through the film. I had another problem in

449
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 2: the fact there was no real threat in the Death Star.

450
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 2: The villains were like tenpence. You get into a gun

451
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 2: fight with them and then they just got knocked over.

452
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: As I originally wrote it, Ben Kenobi Invader had a

453
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 2: sword fight and Ben hits a door and the door

454
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 2: slams closed, and they all run away, and Vaders loved

455
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,160
Speaker 2: standing there with egg oil on his face.

456
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: This was dumb.

457
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 2: They run into the desk Star and they sort of

458
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 2: take over everything and they run back. It totally diminished

459
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 2: any impact that Death Star had. Anyway I was rewriting,

460
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 2: I was struggling with the pop problem when my wife

461
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 2: suggested that I kill off Ben, which she thought was

462
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 2: a pretty outrageous idea, and I said, well, that is

463
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 2: an interesting idea, and I had been thinking about it.

464
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 2: Her first idea was to have three po get shot,

465
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 2: and I said impossible, because I wanted to.

466
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 1: Start and end the film with the robots.

467
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 2: I wanted the film to really be about the robots

468
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 2: and have the theme be framework for the rest of

469
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 2: the movie. But then the more I thought about Ben

470
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 2: getting killed, the more I liked the idea because one,

471
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 2: it made the threat of Vader greater, and that tied

472
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 2: in with the Force and the fact that he could

473
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,719
Speaker 2: use the dark side. Both Alec Guinness and I came

474
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 2: up with the thing of having been go on afterwards

475
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 2: as part of the Force.

476
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 4: All about them robots.

477
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 3: So after that she kind of scaled back for a minute,

478
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 3: providing some uncredited editing form of like More American Graffiti

479
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 3: and The Empire Strikes Back, and was one of the

480
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 3: three official editors on the Return of the Jedi, where

481
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 3: she edited the deaths of Yoda and Darth Vader slash

482
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 3: Anakin Skywalker, two of the most emotional moments of the film.

483
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:13,959
Speaker 4: It really was.

484
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,159
Speaker 3: The story goes that after watching a screening of Raiders

485
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 3: of the Lost Art, she told director Steven Spielberg that

486
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 3: the ending didn't have any emotional resolution in Shilburg agreed

487
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 3: with her and shot an additional scene so that Indiana

488
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 3: Jones was reunited with Marion Ravenwood. Apparently in the original ending,

489
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 3: she just kind of disappeared, So you know that makes sense.

490
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 3: In part due to the success of things like Star

491
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 3: Wars and Indiana Jones, Marsha and George's relationship deteriorated hmm,

492
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 3: and Marcia asked for a divorce in nineteen eighty two.

493
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 3: That was announced in nineteen eighty three.

494
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 2: After that, she almost entirely dropped off the radar, in

495
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: her words, to stop and smell the flowers. That basically

496
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 2: she'd work so hard for so long, and she had

497
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,120
Speaker 2: the money in time, so why.

498
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 4: Not do you all thing?

499
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:59,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. She hardly did any interview.

500
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 2: She's barely credited on any projects after that, and her

501
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 2: work on things like Star Wars isn't talked about too often.

502
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 2: Michael Kaminski's two thousand and eight work The Secret History

503
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 2: of Star Wars has a whole chapter on her. He

504
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 2: wrote Marcia, along with many of George's friends, critiqued which

505
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 2: characters worked, which ones didn't which scenes were good, and

506
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: Lucas composed the script in this way. Marcia was always

507
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: critical of Star Wars, but she was one of the

508
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 2: few people Lucas listened to carefully, knowing she had a

509
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 2: skill for carving out strong characters. Often, she was a

510
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 2: voice of reason, giving him the bad news he's secretly suspected.

511
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 2: I'm hard, she said, but I only tell him what

512
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 2: he already knows. She kept her husband down to earth

513
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: and reminded him of the need to have an emotional

514
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: through line in the film. In nineteen eighty three, Marsha

515
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 2: said in an interview, I love editing, and I'm real

516
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 2: gifted at it. I have an innate ability to take

517
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 2: good material and make it better, or take bad material

518
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: and make it fair.

519
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: I'm compulsive about it, and.

520
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 2: I've worked many years as an editor, and let me

521
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: tell you, you really can do a lot in the editing.

522
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: It can be very, very creative.

523
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: And I think for me that was a misconception I

524
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 2: had was that it was kind of cold and clinical.

525
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: Uh and just like cut here where there's a mistake.

526
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: But there's so much more to it than that.

527
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 2: In two thousand and five, Mark Hamill, who plays. Luke

528
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 2: Skywalker told film Freak Central, you can see a huge

529
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 2: difference in the films George Lucas had done since the

530
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 2: divorce with Marcia and ten. In that two thousand and

531
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 2: five interview, he said she was really the warmth and

532
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 2: the heart of those films, a good person. He could

533
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 2: talk to, you bounce ideas off of. He would tell

534
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 2: him when he was wrong, and that is one of

535
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: the biggest critiques people have of the Pupils, that they

536
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 2: needed an editor, someone to tell George Lucas know it's

537
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 2: a bad idea. According to hammil I know for a

538
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 2: fact that Marshall Lucas was responsible for convincing him to

539
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 2: keep that little Kiss for Luck before Carrie Fisher and

540
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 2: I spent Across the Chasm in the first film, Oh

541
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 2: I don't like it. People laugh in the previews, and

542
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 2: she said, George, they're laughing because it's so sweet and unexpected,

543
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 2: and her influence was such that if she wanted to

544
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 2: keep it in. It was in when the Little Mouse

545
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: robot comes up when Harrison and I are delivering Chewbacca

546
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 2: to the prison and he roars at it and it

547
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 2: screams sort of and runs away. George wanted to cut that,

548
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 2: and Marcia insisted he keep it.

549
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 3: Oh like that part, yeah, and Kaminski wrote quote. She

550
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 3: warned George, if the audience doesn't cheer when Han Solo

551
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 3: comes in at the last second in the Millennium Falcon

552
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 3: to help Luke when he's being chased by Darth Vader,

553
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 3: the picture doesn't work.

554
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 4: It works.

555
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 3: And in a rare interview, Marsha said, I was the

556
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 3: more emotional person who came from the heart, and George

557
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 3: was the more intellectual and visual, and I thought that

558
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 3: provided a nice balance. But George would never acknowledge that

559
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 3: to me. I think he resented my criticisms, felt that

560
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,479
Speaker 3: all I ever did was put him down, and in

561
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 3: his mind, I always stayed the stupid valley girl. He

562
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 3: never felt I had any talent. He never felt I

563
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 3: was very smart, and he never gave me much credit.

564
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 3: And when we were finishing Jedi, George told me he

565
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 3: thought I was a pretty good editor. In the sixteen

566
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 3: years of our being together, I think that was the

567
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: only time he complimented me.

568
00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, she needed to leave.

569
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 2: And remember she was editing at a time when there

570
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: were very few women working in that industry. A gap

571
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 2: that exists to this day. Of the top two hundred

572
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 2: and fifty domestic grossing films in twenty two percent of

573
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 2: the film editors working on them were women. I couldn't

574
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: find numbers specifically from like nineteen seventy seven, but I

575
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: would imagine they.

576
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: Were lower than that.

577
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 2: Some people argue that Marsh's impact is overstated.

578
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: It's Star Wars. Of course people argue about it.

579
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 2: But you can't deny she was key and an influential

580
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 2: element in these films that made cinematic history. I mean,

581
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 2: if she's the one that reordered the Death Star trench,

582
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: that that's idonic, like right, if that.

583
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. There is someone else who you wanted

584
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: to talk about behind the scenes.

585
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 2: But first we have one more quick break for word

586
00:28:48,200 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 2: from our sponsor, and we're back.

587
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor.

588
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, now let's talk about Lee Brackett, the Queen of

589
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 3: the Space Opera and sometimes referred to as the first

590
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 3: science fiction author to succeed in Hollywood. So Brackett was

591
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 3: born in California in nineteen fifteen. Her father, who was

592
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 3: an aspiring writer, actually died during the nineteen eighteen flu pandemic,

593
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: and Brackett did become a writer in nineteen thirty nine,

594
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 3: and she joined the Los Angeles Science Fiction Society. In

595
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 3: nineteen forty she published Martian Quest, her first story. Over

596
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 3: the next few years, she published several stories in science

597
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 3: fiction magazines, and she wrote to Tech the Stories too,

598
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 3: and her first novel, nineteen forty four's No Good from

599
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 3: a Corpse. No Good from a Corpse was also well received,

600
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 3: and Brackett was asked to work alongside William Faulkner and

601
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 3: Jules Firthman on the screenplay of the nineteen forty six

602
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 3: film The Big Sleep. Apparently, Howard Hawks, who directed it,

603
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 3: told his assistant to call this guy Brackett and later

604
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 3: praised she writes good, she writes like a man. Aw thanks,

605
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 3: and she and her friend Ray Bradberry published the novella

606
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 3: Lorelei of the Red Mess in nineteen forty six.

607
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: By this point she started publishing novel link science fiction

608
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 2: and magazines over ten In the next decade or so,

609
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: she was still writing mysteries and added westerns into the mix.

610
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 2: She got screenwriting credit on several projects, like nineteen fifty

611
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: nine's Rio Bravo At nineteen seventy three's The Long Goodbye.

612
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 2: Some of her own works were adapted for television. Of note,

613
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: a lot of her sci fi space opera work was

614
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: ridiculed for being lighter takes on sci fi with these

615
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 2: elements of romance, often called pulpy, and in fact that

616
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: nickname the Queen of Space Opera was largely seen as

617
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 2: a bad thing. Reminder, Star Wars is labeled as a

618
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: space opera, So this is another example of when a

619
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: woman does something, it's frivolous and worthless. When a man

620
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: does it, it's genius, groundbreaking and award worthy every.

621
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: Time, every time.

622
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: But okay, we're talking about Star Wars. After the success

623
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: of a New Hope and wanting to avoid all the

624
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: stress working on it caused him, George Lucas wanted to

625
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: ask someone else to write the script for the sequel.

626
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: Plus he was super busy with industrial like magic building lucasfilm,

627
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 2: and he was paying for it out of pocket, so

628
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 2: why not. I've never been able to confirm this completely,

629
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: but I think a holiday special might have something to

630
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: do with that. It was like, never again, well a

631
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: company will I beeve a hold into a studio. I'm

632
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: paying for this myself, So technically the Empire Strikes Back

633
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: is an independent film.

634
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 4: Oh interesting.

635
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, he had some ideas, but no real plot in mind.

636
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: He tapped the Bracket to write it. Lucas and Brackett

637
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: met several times to nail down a very basic plot.

638
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: A lot of it made it into the film. Bracket

639
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: turned in the first early draft for The Empire Strikes Back.

640
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: While there were elements that Lucas liked, there were several

641
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 2: that he wanted to rework. Unfortunately, Brackett died of breast

642
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: cancer in nineteen seventy eight, just a few weeks after

643
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 2: she turned in this early draft, and Lucas tried his

644
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: hand at a few drafts that were refined by Lawrence Costen.

645
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: Her draft and the potential of what it would have

646
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 2: become it had the potential to become, is sometimes referred

647
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: to as the Lost version of The Empire Strikes Back

648
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: or the version You Never saw. You can find whole

649
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: draft online, though complete with handwritten notes. A fan site

650
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: called Star Wars with z dot com acquired the so

651
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: called Holy Grail in twenty ten and scanned.

652
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: And uploaded it.

653
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 4: I know you've read it. What do you think.

654
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: It's weird? It's it's much more.

655
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 2: It's got much more fantasy, and it's much more on

656
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: like fantasy side, and it's got a lot more romance.

657
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 2: But it's beautiful and it's beautifully written. Some of the

658
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: dialogue is pretty counky. But again this is a first draft,

659
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 2: so I think you were probably very like here at

660
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: the out yeah, it's recognizable, Like there are some scenes

661
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: You're like, yeah, this is the Empire Strexpert, this is

662
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 2: what it ended up in the movie.

663
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 4: Nice.

664
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 3: So while a lot of her story got reworked or dropped,

665
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 3: as you can tell, some key elements remained in the film.

666
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 3: The Battle of Hath that's in it, which was a

667
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 3: risky decision at the time to put your big budget

668
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 3: fight scene right at the top, as opposed to the

669
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 3: end Luke's and R two separation from han Lea Chewy

670
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 3: and three po You've got Frog like Yoda the backpack,

671
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 3: but by the time he was named Buffy.

672
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 4: I'm really glad to change that.

673
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 3: In fact, the whole sequence of Luke training on Dago

674
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 3: but remains pretty unchanged. Lando's in it, the asteroid filled chase,

675
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 3: the love triangle, much much more focused on that in

676
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 3: the first draft, the introduction of the Emperor a city

677
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 3: in the clouds. The name Vestment is in the script,

678
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 3: as is Hawth, though for different planets. C three po

679
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 3: gets blasted apart, Han, Chew, and Lea are used as

680
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 3: bait to lure Luke, and the climactic confrontation between Luke

681
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 3: Skywalker and Darth Vader, where Vader tries to turn Luke to.

682
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:10,280
Speaker 4: The dark side.

683
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 3: All those big story beats are there, minus the I

684
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 3: Am your Father thing and loss of hand, though he

685
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 3: does still fall through cloud City to get away from

686
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 3: Vader and is rescued by the Millennium Falcon. However, even

687
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 3: in this early draft, the connection between Luke and Vader

688
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 3: was integral to the plot. Vader a menace hunting Luke throughout.

689
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 3: The ending is kind of similar too, with Luke and

690
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 3: Laya watching on as Han and Chewy fly off induce base.

691
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 2: Yes, that was a long list. Those plot points were

692
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 2: all there. Yeah, even so, George Laka sayesn't really acknowledge it,

693
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 2: or he kind of.

694
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: Does, but not in a good way.

695
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: I feel like maybe he's it's complicated with like union stuff.

696
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: I don't know, Okay, he once said, I didn't like

697
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 2: the first script, but I gave Lee credit because I

698
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: like her a lot. She was sick at the time

699
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 2: she wrote the script, and she really tried her best.

700
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 2: During the story conferences I had with Lee, my thoughts

701
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 2: weren't fully formed and felt that her script went in

702
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 2: a completely different direction, which she is in the credits,

703
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: and he made sure that she was credited alongside Lawrence

704
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,439
Speaker 2: Casten for writing and to do that because I don't

705
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 2: know the ins and out of this, but basically the

706
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,439
Speaker 2: rules of the Writers Get of America to make sure

707
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 2: that they gave her a screenwriting credit. He intentionally didn't

708
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: submit drafts of his own of the script, and I do.

709
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I've read it and it is it's weird.

710
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: It's one of those things where it almost feels like

711
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 2: a fan fiction of because those beats are there, but

712
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: it is much more fantastical. So I don't know, like,

713
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: I feel like I get what he's saying in terms

714
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 2: of it went in a completely different direction.

715
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 4: But at the same time, I'm like, God, she gave

716
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 4: him a good bass.

717
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of us.

718
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 2: There, But Okay, that's not to say that some things

719
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 2: didn't change from that early draft. Her version did content

720
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: a lot more elements of fantasy from the final script,

721
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: like the big ice creatures in the beginning they were

722
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 2: like ghost they could like disappear, and in some of

723
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 2: the deleted scenes of The Empire Strikes Back you can

724
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 2: really see some leftover elements from her original idea, which

725
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 2: I do maintain every scene they deleted from The Empire

726
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 2: Strikes Back, thank god they did, but there's an attack

727
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: of the wampas the ice creatures.

728
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 1: The love triangles more emphasized.

729
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: In her version, Leya was much more damsely really a

730
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 2: love interest, not much else, so it's good that that changed,

731
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 2: though some people pointed out that this minimizing of way

732
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 2: I'm manifested in the gold Bikini scenes in Return of

733
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 2: the Jedi. See our Princess Leah episodes for more on that.

734
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 2: I don't really think you can blame Bracket alone for

735
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 2: that though.

736
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 4: Right absolutely not so.

737
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 3: The Empire is barely in it too, which is funny

738
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 3: given the title of the movie, But at the time

739
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 3: it was just Star Wars too, so so that is,

740
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 3: Vader's character wasn't really fleshed out yet, having discernible motivation

741
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 3: other than revenge for the Death Star, but he was

742
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 3: much more active in attacking Luke with the Force no

743
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 3: matter where the galaxy he was, so there's that.

744
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, he could like make him pass out by just

745
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: thinking it was weird. Luke manages to pull his ship

746
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 2: out in Degaba, so that whole like do you or

747
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: do not?

748
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: There is no try he.

749
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 2: Does where's in the movie he does not. He learns

750
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: the ability to summon force ghosts, so that's different, and

751
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: he summons his father.

752
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: Who is not Darth Vader.

753
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 2: Not only that, but his father's ghost reveals to him

754
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 2: that he does have a twin sister, but it is

755
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 2: not Leah. It is someone named Nellith who you never

756
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 2: hear about again. Most likely that was gonna be resolved

757
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 2: in the third movie, but the twin thing did end

758
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: up getting used, just not in this one. His father,

759
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 2: along with Ben Knight Luke is a Jedi and tell

760
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 2: him to face Vader, so he becomes a Jedi Knight

761
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 2: in this one. And yeah, when you think about it,

762
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 2: the Force ghost element is a pretty fantastical thing that

763
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 2: ultimately survived to the final films.

764
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 1: I know Lucas said that he and Alt Gunnis flushed.

765
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: Out, but I've never really thought about that as being

766
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 2: kind of like, yeah, it's like a fantasy. And it

767
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 2: seems like she kind of introduced khyber crystals too, which

768
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 2: are the crystals that power lightsabers and did go on

769
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 2: to become pretty important in other media and the Star

770
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: Wars universe. And she also introduced Vader's castle, which, for

771
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,919
Speaker 2: those of you who don't know, I mean Vader, he's

772
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 2: got a castle.

773
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: I didn't know that he does on the.

774
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: Planet where Mustafar, the lava planet where he lost his

775
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: arms and legs.

776
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 1: He's got a.

777
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 4: Nice castle, lovely. Mm hmmm, I'm sure it's Volcano side Home.

778
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Volcano side Home.

779
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: There are no bounty hunters in her version, so there's

780
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 2: no Boba Fett, there's no Han getting frozen. Hana is

781
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 2: much more a rebel soldier and much less a smuggler

782
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 2: kind of sticking around, right.

783
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: And then Lando's character is still charming and charismatic, but

784
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 3: he's much more lonely, a clone left over from the

785
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 3: Clone Wars, which I feel like it was like the.

786
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 4: Rebel slash Clone Wars.

787
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, the cartoon, he says to Han quote it didn't

788
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 3: seem strange to us, but to see our own faces

789
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 3: endlessly repeated in the streets of our city. It gave

790
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 3: us a sense of oneness, of belonging. Now, when every

791
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 3: face is new and different, I feel truly alone. He

792
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 3: also still portrays Han. Brackett described Lando as quote handsome

793
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 3: like Rudolph Valentino, who was an actor and a sex

794
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 3: symbol of his time.

795
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

796
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: After her death, Bracket received several awards recognizing her impact

797
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: on science fiction genre, including a nineteen eighty one Hugo

798
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 2: Award for Best Dramatic Presentation for The Empire Strikes Back,

799
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 2: and she was inducted into the Science Fiction Hall of

800
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,720
Speaker 2: Fame in twenty fourteen. And fun fact, the character Sheriff

801
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 2: Bracket from the nineteen seventy eight film Halloween was.

802
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: Named after her. Interesting.

803
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she was also doing a set of time

804
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 2: when there weren't that many women working as screenwriter. It's

805
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,399
Speaker 2: not to mention in the genre of science fiction, which

806
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 2: was much more seen as male dominated genre. Of the

807
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 2: top two hundred fifty domestic grossing films in twenty twenty,

808
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 2: only seventeen percent of writers were women. And again I

809
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 2: couldn't find numbers from when she was doing this, but

810
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 2: I imagine even.

811
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 4: Lower, even lower.

812
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 3: So the Infra strikes back as one of the most

813
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 3: celebrated movies of all time.

814
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 4: Is this your favorite movie any h Right?

815
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 3: So I thought all time, all time, and it changed

816
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 3: not only the cinematic landscape, but people's ideas around sequels

817
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 3: and what they could accomplish. I do hear this one

818
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 3: and The Godfather too as the better of the trilogies.

819
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: Just put that out there. So much of it's iconic,

820
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 3: and we owe a lot of that to Bracket obviously,

821
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 3: and she only had one crack at the draft.

822
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 4: It's interesting to wonder what would have happened.

823
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 3: And I know that you when we first watched it,

824
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 3: you made sure to go to the credits to see

825
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 3: how if our name was there.

826
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,439
Speaker 1: God, I was so excited that first time you were.

827
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: You were so excited.

828
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 4: I love sharing things that I love, that's true.

829
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I hope that you listeners maybe have

830
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: learned something new or that you have enjoyed the celebratory

831
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 2: episode for Revenge of the Fifth.

832
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: And I always love talking about this. Clearly, Yes, it's

833
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,919
Speaker 1: been a delight, and I love it too.

834
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 4: It has been a delight.

835
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So happy may the fourth and move into

836
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 2: the fifth and remember Without these amazing women, both real

837
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 2: and fictional, we would not have had this piece of

838
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 2: historic and beloved entertainment. So their impacts on generations of us,

839
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 2: and particularly women and girls, truly cannot be overstated.

840
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: It's true.

841
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 4: Yes, it's gonna be might.

842
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 1: I just had to do it. You had to do it.

843
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: I don't.

844
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 2: I had too, So listeners, if you have any thoughts

845
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: about it, this, or any suggestions, we do take them.

846
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,959
Speaker 2: We have a list and we're always happy to receive them.

847
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 2: You can email us atuff Media, Momstuff at iHeartMedia dot com.

848
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: You can find us on Instagram at stuff I've Never

849
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 2: Told You or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks

850
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 2: as always to our super producer, Christina dani You, and

851
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 2: thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You,

852
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 2: the production of iHeartRadio. For more podcast on iHeartRadio, visits

853
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or where you listen to your

854
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 2: favorite shows.