WEBVTT - Ep. 3 - Shattering The System: "Sympathy for Who?" 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:03.480 In this podcast, we're going to talk frankly but sensitively 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:07.640 about some tough issues including sexual abuse, drugs, and suicide. 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:11.400 Check out this podcast notes page for information on mental 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:13.480 health resources in the queer community. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:21.080 This is Shattering the System. I'm Sinari Glinton. In our 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:24.479 previous episode, we learned that a twenty six year old 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.560 gay black man, Jamel Moore, was found dead in the 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:31.000 apartment of Ed Buck at one two three four North 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.600 Laurel Avenue in West Hollywood. Buck, who is white, was 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.120 sixty two years old at the time, and he had 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.479 kind of turned his home into a sort of drug 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:43.879 or sex dungeon on the street. They called it the 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:47.720 Gates of Hell. Now in his apartment he displayed photos 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.360 of prominent politicians, the trappings that came with being a 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.600 political donor. And it's interesting to me how the media 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:57.320 covered Melmore's death. Let's get into it. 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:04.280 It has been three months since twenty six year old 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:08.240 Will Moore found dead the West Hollywood home wealthy democratic. 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:08.760 Donor at Buck. 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:12.720 Initially, his death was ruled accidental, but they better mean overdose. 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:15.960 Moore's mother, Letitia Nickson, has pressed police to continue the 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:18.760 investigation into worse On Jamil's or theorious death. 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:27.600 Jamel Moore is dead. Then five days later the case 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:31.919 is closed, ruled an accidental overdose. Now that's despite Jamel 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.840 Moore's diary. That's despite a bag of evidence. That's despite 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:39.160 other victims who'd been in this very apartment and have 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:42.919 stories to tell. Ed Buck was out in the streets 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:45.640 and he was becoming kind of a local news celebrity. 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.160 Jamel Moore's mother would begin a campaign not only to 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:51.640 get ed Buck put in jail, but to get the 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:55.680 politicians who gave them money held accountable. The local news 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:58.920 site U Hillville covered this very vigil held in front 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.000 of the Los Angeles County, the Sheriff's. 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:13.480 Office, the lord to cover this family with club and 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.000 peace even in this difficult times. 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:22.120 Now, this is Letician Nixon, Jamel Moore's mother speaking to reporters. 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:30.640 This is something that shouldn't have happened. It just shouldn't 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:34.840 have happened. My son fouled police reports. It's crazy how 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:39.120 the whole entire situation was handled. My son's dead, and 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:42.600 five days later the case is closed. 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.320 I'm standing in the spot where Letitia Nixon spoke those 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.400 very words literally across the Street. A few years later, 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:55.440 on the fourth anniversary of her son's death, she would 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:58.880 get a measure of justice for her son. Ed Bud 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:02.000 would be convicted of federal charges, including the death of 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:06.480 Jamel Moore, but justice was not swift at all. Eighteen 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:09.040 months after Jamel Moore was found dead in his apartment, 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:13.320 another black man, Timothy Dean, was also pronounced dead from 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:17.560 an overdose in the exact same apartment in ed Buck's 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:21.160 apartment in West Hollywood. And even after a second death, 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:23.520 ed Buck walked the streets with impunity. 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.080 And that's what I saw ed Buck as being in 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:32.120 this case. He was an offender who had acted with 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:37.880 impunity for nearly a decade. And I was made aware 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.880 through the course of this case that ed Buck is 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.640 not alone and he is not the only person victimizing 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:48.320 underserved populations in Los Angeles. So this was a really 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:54.080 important bell weather and deterrent for other people who would 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:57.280 victimize these populations. 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:07.880 This is shattering the system, the rise and fall of 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:23.200 ed Buck. That's after this breaking years ago, when I 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:26.039 was a young local public radio reporter, I went to 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.160 a local journalism awards banquet. Didn't have a car, so 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.760 a newspaper reporter offered to give me a ride home. 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.440 Her name was Linda Lutton. She'd been the big star 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:39.680 of the evening. Actually, she won the prize for investigative journalism. 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:42.039 She had won that award because she helped to put 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.480 a local official in jail with her reporter. Now, as 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:48.760 we're driving home to the South Side Chicago, I remember 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.760 asking her an important question for me, which was what 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:55.360 made her look into this. I don't know local school 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:59.040 official so closely. What a tipped her off? I asked her, 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:01.559 and she looked at me and matter of factly said, 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:06.080 scenari he was an asshole. It's hard to be an 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:09.880 asshole in only one part of your life, you see. 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.279 The thing is you get the sense, at least from 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:17.200 everyone I've talked to in this story. Even before the deaths, 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.560 ed Buck was kind of an asshole. 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:24.479 He was a troublesome kid. 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.440 His mother, interviewed over the years, said she knew when 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.640 the phone would ring it would be the school reporting 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:34.200 another problem. But her son, she'd pick up the phone saying, now, 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:38.039 what's he doing? So he was a little bit difficult. 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:42.880 He was a very handsome young man. He became a model. 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:47.920 Hank Scott reported extensively on that book, his political connections 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.960 and the deaths in his home. Scott started the local 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:55.480 website Wehillville, which covers West Hollywood. And I always think 0:05:55.520 --> 0:06:01.599 the names are important, So let's begin. Edward Bernard Peter 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:05.720 Buck Milter. That's Ed Buck was born in August twenty fourth, 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:10.520 nineteen fifty four, in Steubenville, Ohio, which is just about 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.679 a half an hour or so from Pittsburgh. Other famous 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:18.919 residents from Steubenville late Great Dean Mark. Now. When Buck 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:22.320 was six, he moved from Steubenville with his parents, one brother, 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:25.880 and two sisters to Phoenix, Arizona. He went to a 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:30.919 Catholic grade school and North High in Phoenix. By all accounts, 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:39.600 his family is pretty middle class. My childhood was uneventful 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.000 as hell. That's at least what Ed Buck told the 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:45.440 Arizona Republic in June nineteen eighty seven. Now, Buck would 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.440 later say that he was molested as a child, and 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.520 he would describe his father as a longtime alcohol and 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.440 when reading about his youth, you kind of get the 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:58.000 sense it was anything but uneventful. Buck came out of 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.720 the closet to his family in the early seventies. He 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.719 would eventually shorten his name from Buck Melter to Buck. 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:07.680 Let's go back to Hank Scott, the founder of the 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:09.400 local news website Hill vill. 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.520 He spent a number of years in Europe modeling and 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.240 touring work, living in Paris and other places. 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:17.600 And then he came back and he had friend of 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:21.120 his had a small business, an odd business that involved 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:27.320 documenting driver's license information for an insurance company, strange things, 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.840 and the business was struggling. Ed stepped in to help 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:34.480 the guy. He bought it from me, and it took off, and. 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.920 Then sold it and he ended up at. 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:39.320 The age of thirty maybe thirty two, he ended up 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:43.640 a million dollars times pocket and that, you know, that 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:44.600 changed his life. 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:48.840 It was this money that would allow Buck to launch 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:53.400 a recall campaign against the then governor of Arizona, Evan Meetcha. Now, 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:56.200 at the time, Buck was a registered Republican and the 0:07:56.240 --> 0:08:00.480 Republican governor, among other things, was opposed to the Martin 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.560 Luther King Holiday. Meechim even defended the use of the 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:07.480 word Picaninny. Anyway, Buck would lead a campaign to get 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:11.320 Meetum recalled. Now, this was alongside of an impeachment and 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:16.160 a federal indictment. Now politics being politics, Buck was attacked 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.000 by Beecham, calling Buck and his supporters quote a band 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:25.120 of homosexuals and dissident Democrats. The Arizona campaign will give 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.960 Buck his first taste of the spotlight, and in an 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.960 interview with the Arizona Republic at the time, when asked 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.040 if he would ever run for office, he said, quote, 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.040 I think I'd be more effective as a private citizen. 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:40.560 The recall movement has shown how people can get together 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:43.120 and change things. I know how to do that now 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:50.920 it may come in handy later. All of that attention 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:55.840 that Buck received was very unwanted. The bright lights might 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:58.480 just reveal that he had had a few run ins 0:08:58.520 --> 0:08:59.240 with law. 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:08.040 Ed Buck was arrested at one point for using a 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:12.960 fraudulent prescription to get some drugs from pharmacy. Ed Buck 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:15.160 got in trouble in an adult store when a cop 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:20.520 saw him grabbing the crotch of another man nearby. So 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:23.040 you know there were those sorts of issues at the time. 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:28.160 But he then when Meetam was pushed out office, Edbuck 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:31.800 decided to move to where well, Hollywood with better place, 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.120 and he moved to a place where he lived for 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:39.920 another thirty years on Lowell Avenue apartment in a fairly 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.199 ordinary building, looking very fancy. 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.880 And he slowly got involved in civic life. 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:50.640 Can you discuss, So what is a gay man, an 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:54.760 out gay man getting involved in civic life. Tell me 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.760 what that looks like in West Hollywood. 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.680 For ed Buck, Oh, it looks great West Hollywood. 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.960 I mean, you know, out came in with money, getting 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.560 involved in civic life. I mean it made him a 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:11.079 welcome figure. There were a couple of causes he cared about. 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:15.760 One was building Terra. You know about that. It's an old, 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:19.120 old building. Who's owner. You didn't sign a written contract 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.160 with you orally it gave it to the City of 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.320 West Hollywood as long as it would preserve it. 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:25.319 The city decided it. 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.280 Wanted to turn it into the apartments and build housing 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:32.080 for low income seniors. And of course the neighbors who 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.679 owned their own homes bought that and launched a campaign. 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.680 Terror took the City of West Hollywood at court. Ed 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:41.640 Buck supported it, and Taror won. 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.280 So let's think about this for a minute. There's a 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:49.559 building called Tara in ed Buck's neighborhood. Now this is Hollywood, 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.079 so they call it that because it looks like the Tara, 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.800 you know, the one from Gone with the win well 0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:00.240 Ed Buck was living in a rent stabilized apartment on 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:05.120 the same street, actively working against and helping to stop 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.160 a plan to convert the building into housing for low 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:12.480 income seniors. And he was living again in a rent 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:13.680 stabilized apartment. 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.720 It now remains an empty building. While there's a struggle 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:20.439 for people to find housing in West Hollywood, terras, it 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.360 there empty, and so he got involved in that. And 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.960 then he had a passion for animal rights and this 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:31.120 was his big, big thing. So he was involved in 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:35.520 an animal rights group, and he decided to form an organization. 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.559 That campaigned for a band and the sale of Furr 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:39.520 in West Hollywood. 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.240 Furr was not something most West Hollywood residents went out 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:46.520 and bought, but a section of West Hollywood adjacent to 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:51.079 Beverly Hill, the design district, was full of very affluent 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:55.280 stores like those in Beverly Hills, and somebody flying in from. 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:56.959 New York might go by for a. 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:01.320 Code and had led a campaign to stopped the sale 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.240 of her and West taller Wood became the first city 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:07.520 in the nation to ban you know, I haven't been 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:09.840 a resident of West Holloway for a long time, and 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.200 I will tell you that I'm so proud of my 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:13.000 city right now. 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.240 Ed Buck clearly saw the fur band as a badge 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.680 of honor. We'll hear more about his animal rights activism later. 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.040 Hank Scott, the journalist, says ed Buck early on developed 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.079 a reputation for being difficult. 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.760 Also said he was a really difficult guy. 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:35.360 So, uh, you know a number of people. 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.600 Steve Martin, who ran for city council long city council, 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:41.080 talked about the difficulty of feeling with it. 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.360 Book, A number of people who difficult difficult. 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.480 He would get angry, he would get nasty, he would 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:49.840 get semi violent. There were a couple of instances where 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.880 he appeared at city council meetings and made statements, and 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.200 they were one city council member who asked that I 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.720 not declared her name, but I think everybody knows. 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:01.600 She actually had the sheriff. 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:05.080 Steputies escort with the car after the city now council 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.080 meeting to hear the Dead Book to attack her. I 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.120 met someone else who was very involved in the animal 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:14.920 rights movement. With that who's no one even lives in 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.000 the United States, but she told me that she feared 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:21.240 violence from Medoc. They would get in what she thought 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:23.480 of as a minor disagreement and he would get violent. 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:28.600 So this was a part of his personality, and I 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:29.400 think maybe it. 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:33.760 Got worse when the drug used took all. But he 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:37.200 was known as a difficult guy to deal with. 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.320 West Hollywood can look on the outside as if it's 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:44.440 some harmonious gighborhood, but there is a long history of 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:48.400 racism and sexism in West Hollywood. Just for example, it 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.280 was long a practice that black men would have to 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:55.120 show multiple forms of ID to get into bars, and 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.200 the city can be incredibly unwelcoming to lesbians. Also, the 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.160 city can be very much a not in my backyard 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:06.040 kind of place, which ed Buck fit right into. Henry 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.520 Scott says, there are a lot of divisions in West Hollwood. 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.600 Then the other division that I've found fascinating his division 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.200 between what I call the work gays and the old 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:22.920 gay boomers. There's plight a division there that we see, 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:25.240 particularly on the city council right now. 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.720 Ed Buck made friends and some enemies in his early career, 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.280 getting involved in democratic clubs and donating money. He gave 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:36.040 nearly half a million dollars doing it mainly at one 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.840 grand to five grand at a time. One of the 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:42.240 people who benefited was John Duran, a former city council 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:43.880 person and former wehome here. 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:47.240 When I first met at, he was very talkative, he 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:51.480 had intelligence, but the fact that he'd run for office 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.960 and almost took Governor Meetrom of Arizona out made him 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:57.680 interesting to me. But he was out as a gay man, 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.520 and if you move into West Hollywood either gay or 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.320 presumed to be possibly gay, and so I think by 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:08.440 the time ed got here, he intended this destination to 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:10.160 explore his sexual element. 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:16.560 I first met ed Buck when I got involved in 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:18.040 city politics. 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.680 Lindsay Horvav was a second woman mayor in West Hollywood's history. 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.200 She's currently on the LA County Board of Supervisors, and 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.640 she began volunteering in West Hollywood in two thousand and seven. 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:36.880 I volunteered on campaigns for city council he had run 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:39.200 at the time. I did not volunteer on his campaign, 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.600 to be very clear, but that's how I met him. 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:45.200 He was running and some of his friends were running 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:46.720 against people I was supporting. 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:49.560 So what would you say? What was your impressive him? 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:53.480 At the time, I wasn't politically aligned with ed Buck. 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:58.480 I didn't see I didn't share his worldview, and my 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.440 experience was that any bud who was on the other 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.280 side of him, he made an enemy. 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:10.200 It's not clear when ed Buck began using meth, but 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:12.880 there was an influx of drugs into West Hollywood at 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.080 the end of the nineties. Again, John Durant, former mayor 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:17.040 of West Hollywood. 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:21.320 He was very involved with the Democratic Party, the Democratic Clubs, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.880 the Stonewall Democratic Club, but his role in West iod 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.880 government has been primarily as a agitator. 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:29.720 You know. 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:33.240 He'd come to council meetings on occasion and scream and 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:34.920 yell about development issues. 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:36.120 That's what I recall. 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.560 Now I'm wondering whether some of those appearances before council 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:43.840 were under the influence of myth because that sort of 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:50.120 anger and agitation, and the sweaty brow, the clenched fists, 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.800 the teeth being gritted. I mean, now I recognize all 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.200 of that to be the symptoms of somebody under the 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:58.760 influence of amphetamine. 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:04.280 Crystal meth has had an incredible impact, negative impact on 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:08.879 West Hollywood and other gay communities because West Hollywood is 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.560 so much of a quote gay community thirty percent of 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:15.400 the population that's gay. I have lost friends to meth, 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:19.280 and I have seen friends lose their careers. I had 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:21.840 someone I lived with for three years in New York 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:26.000 and was very close to who lost his job almost 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:27.000 committed suicide. 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.720 Amost everything he am. 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.080 And one of the challenges I found in West Hollywood 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.399 was the unwillingness for the gay community to acknowledge the 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:36.120 horrors of men. 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.520 It's not clear when Ed Buck began using meth, but 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:43.479 there was an influx of math into West Hollywood at 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.480 the end of the nineteen nineties. Over time, Buck began 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.480 to become involved in fetish play. His fetish focused on 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:55.280 black men dressed in white underwear. He enjoyed humiliating men, 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.840 and according to prosecutors, there were thousands of videos of 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:03.520 Buck smoking up with and eventually slamming or shooting men 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.600 up with meth. Neighbors began noticing the parade of black 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:25.080 men going into Buck's apartment. This is shattering the system, 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:26.920 well just the beginning. To do me a favor and 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:27.800 push yourself. 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.080 My name is Ludlow b. Query the Second. I am 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:36.719 a Los Angeles based lawyer. I was co counsel as 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:38.480 Edward Buck's defense. 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:43.400 Council, this is shattering the system. I'm snari Clinton at 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:45.399 this part of the story, we thought we needed to 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:49.760 understand what ed Buck was thinking besides his statements at trial. 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:54.400 What possible excuse would ed Buck have for his behavior now, 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:56.760 so that you all know at the start of the 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.720 process for doing this podcast, we reached out to ed 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.199 Buck and his family. They declined. We did speak to 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:07.280 one of his lawyers, Chris Darden and Ludlow B. Query. 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:11.200 The second were ed Buck's lawyers. You might remember Chris 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:14.199 Darden from the OJ case. Darden was one of the 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:16.840 prosecutors who tried OJ Simpson for the murder of his 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.880 ex wife, Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ron Goldman. 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:25.400 Simpson was acquitted. Darden, though has since become a very 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:29.960 well paid defense attorney. His co counsel Ludlow B. Query, 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.840 also a defense attorney. If less famous, he is very 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:40.720 much la He was bussed to Beverly Hills High. I 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:44.040 have to say that talking to Ludlow Query was possibly 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:46.280 one of the more memorable interviews that I've done in 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:53.479 my career, in part because of how he defends at Buck. Well, 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:55.320 you know, when I think of this case, like, you know, 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:58.480 the average person who might be listening this, like, Okay, 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:00.840 I understand black man is a criminal defense attorney, that's 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:03.280 the thing. But then I have to ask the question 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:07.200 that I feel like the average black of Angelino might say, 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:12.000 which would probably be something like, look, Chris Darden on 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.679 the wrong side yet again, is he on the wrong 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.440 side you and you and Christy Darden like in this case, Like. 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:25.240 It depends on obviously, if you look at this case 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:27.520 you were talking about the ed Buck case. Obvious, Yes, 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:30.879 if you look at it outside of the criminal justice 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:35.800 sphere or the criminal justice space, then I can understand 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:38.520 why people would say that. Yes, I mean ed Buck 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:42.159 is accused of court doing horrible things that resulted in 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:46.200 the deaths of two black men. He's accused of exploiting 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:52.360 black men in particular. Those are the allegations. And you know, 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:57.640 it appeared that Jackie Lacy, the district attorney at the time, 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:03.280 wasn't willing to file a case against them. And I 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.360 can understand how the public couls see that as, oh, well, 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:08.960 these are just black men and black lives don't matter, 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:14.879 and so you know, wealthy ed Buck is going to 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:19.720 not be prosecuted because the victims happen to be blackmail, 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:25.719 homeless black men, black men who have drug addiction problems, 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:30.639 black men who are in prostitution, so they're to. 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:33.840 Society, they're looked at is throwaway. 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:38.520 And to people who are advocating that black lives matter, 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:44.240 and particularly and in this particular insin black gay lives matter, 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:51.239 I can understand how it would be perceived that me 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:56.520 and Chris are on the wrong side yet again. But 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:06.040 lawyers and the criminal justice system doesn't operate, it's not 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:14.600 supposed to operate under the influence of public opinion. You 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:21.520 cannot get justice if you prosecute or don't prosecute, or 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:25.280 convict or don't convict based on what the masses want. 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:31.960 But our justice system is based on testable evidence. You 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:32.480 know what I mean. 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:34.800 You can't bring in a mob. 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:37.359 A crowd and say to the jury, well, the mob 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:39.680 says they're guilty, so you better convict. 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:48.400 Now, this wasn't necessarily a mob action. Prosecutors would eventually 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:52.480 find thousands of videos of ed Buck in his victims, 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:56.639 both ed Buck injecting them and smoking meth with them. 0:22:56.880 --> 0:22:59.439 In addition to that, there was the actual evidence that 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:02.840 was found inside of his apartment, as well as the 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:07.639 willingness amongst his victims to testify if they got immunity. 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:12.760 One of the big questions of the case seems to be, well, 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:15.720 you know, I live around the corner from at Buck's 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:18.280 apartment and I look at one, two, three four, Laurel, 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:20.640 I'm like, is he really a wealthy man? 0:23:21.720 --> 0:23:26.240 Well, you know, I mean, I'm not going to comment on. 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:30.200 On his assets, you know, but that was certainly what 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:33.600 the public, the public perception of him. 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:37.120 Was one of the things regardless of what you think 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:40.560 about this case, I think about, who's no one to 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:41.760 think of him as a boogeyman? 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:45.880 Okay, right, so right, this is not a boogeyman. He's 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:46.199 just not. 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:49.400 He was portrayed as a boogeyman by the prosecution and 0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:50.160 by the press. 0:23:50.440 --> 0:23:51.840 But he's not a boogeyman. 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:54.080 So humanize him for me helped me understand. 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:54.520 Ed book was. 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:58.480 In my opinion, ed Buck was a meth amphetamine addict 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:01.840 that is a diction and had gotten control of him 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:06.800 and as a human, as a person, you know, apart 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:14.239 from this horrible drug, he is a compassionate, you know, 0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:21.680 civically active, caring man. I mean he howso because you know, 0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:26.680 as intent always is to help people. Now it got 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:31.840 twisted by an addiction. Yeah, it got twisted by an addiction. 0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:34.639 And you know, doing drugs with people is definitely not 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:35.200 helping him. 0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:38.760 And another thing I mean this is does ed Buck 0:24:38.800 --> 0:24:41.800 have a history of victimizing black men? 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:42.600 No? 0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:45.399 I mean you go back and back in time in 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:49.280 his life, there's none of there's no history of him 0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:51.600 abusing and victimizing black men. 0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:52.840 You know. 0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:56.800