1
00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,600
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kirk and this is next question.

2
00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:14,120
Speaker 1: Ezra Cline is one smart cookie. He's got a podcast

3
00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,639
Speaker 1: with the somewhat unoriginal title of the ezraclined show. Hey,

4
00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:20,840
Speaker 1: I've got a company called Katy Kirk Media, so I

5
00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,479
Speaker 1: guess I'm one to talk. But he's also an opinion

6
00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,000
Speaker 1: columnist for The New York Times. Semaphore called him the

7
00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,800
Speaker 1: breakout media star of the twenty twenty four election cycle.

8
00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,879
Speaker 1: His columns and his podcasts are incredibly insightful and at

9
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,280
Speaker 1: times pretty surprising. He often gives us new, fresh takes

10
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,120
Speaker 1: on some of the same old problems. Today, I'm very

11
00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,479
Speaker 1: excited to have as my plus one the one the

12
00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,919
Speaker 1: only Liz Plank, who is a feminist writer, commentator. She

13
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,240
Speaker 1: has a biweekly newsletter called Airplane Mode, which I subscribe to,

14
00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,720
Speaker 1: and I absolutely love Liz. Thank you so much for

15
00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:00,800
Speaker 1: being my plus one and any of meat today.

16
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:02,240
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

17
00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,640
Speaker 3: I've been on the wait list for a while, so

18
00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,480
Speaker 3: I'm happy to be to be here with you now.

19
00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,120
Speaker 1: We're having today as our guest Ezra Klein, who I

20
00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,240
Speaker 1: know you're a big fan of. I'm a big fan

21
00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,959
Speaker 1: of as Sema for said not too long ago, he

22
00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:20,160
Speaker 1: was having a moment. He has an extremely popular podcast,

23
00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,280
Speaker 1: and I always appreciate his point of view. Are you

24
00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,400
Speaker 1: a big fan, Let's hope so because he's listening.

25
00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a super I mean I'm a super fan.

26
00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,560
Speaker 3: I had the privilege of working for Ezra when I

27
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,520
Speaker 3: was a box and I still have like an Ezra

28
00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,200
Speaker 3: cleient voice inside my head that pops in sometimes of

29
00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,640
Speaker 3: lessons that I've learned from working with Ezra, Like every

30
00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,600
Speaker 3: time I did get time with him, I would leave

31
00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,280
Speaker 3: with like a really important thing that would stay in

32
00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,040
Speaker 3: my head. And so I'm super super excited to be

33
00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:49,160
Speaker 3: talking to him today with you.

34
00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,480
Speaker 1: What are some of the headline issues that you're looking

35
00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,000
Speaker 1: to interrogate with Ezra?

36
00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,720
Speaker 3: Well, I think Ezra wrote an entire book about polarization,

37
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,960
Speaker 3: and obviously we think a lot about polarization in the

38
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,920
Speaker 3: sense of political parties and political ideology. But recently, just

39
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,400
Speaker 3: with all of the data that's come out of the

40
00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,520
Speaker 3: election and this huge and growing gender divide, I've been

41
00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,160
Speaker 3: thinking a lot about it in terms of gender, and

42
00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,120
Speaker 3: so I'm very curious to hear his thoughts about how

43
00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:19,760
Speaker 3: we resolve this growing gap between women and men and

44
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,600
Speaker 3: us being kind of like each radicalized in our own

45
00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,840
Speaker 3: corner of the universe, and the sort of political landscape right.

46
00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,360
Speaker 1: Now, well, let's get to it. Ezra Klein, welcome to

47
00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:29,120
Speaker 1: next question.

48
00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:30,360
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.

49
00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,480
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you. And before we look ahead,

50
00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,359
Speaker 1: I want to look behind us for a moment, because

51
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,160
Speaker 1: you did get a lot of credit, Ezra for being

52
00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,480
Speaker 1: the leader of the pack saying that Joe Biden must

53
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,560
Speaker 1: step down looking back on that whole experience, because I

54
00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,760
Speaker 1: know you think highly of Joe Biden, you like him,

55
00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,240
Speaker 1: you think he was good president. Any regrets for leaning

56
00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,360
Speaker 1: sort of the movement to replace him with someone else,

57
00:02:58,000 --> 00:02:58,519
Speaker 1: I hear.

58
00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,240
Speaker 4: Me in some ways more credit than I I'd look

59
00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,440
Speaker 4: like I was. I don't think of myself as early

60
00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,040
Speaker 4: or the media as early. Certainly the voters were there

61
00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,320
Speaker 4: for a long time. A lot of what I was

62
00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,960
Speaker 4: saying in those kind of pieces back in February was

63
00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,760
Speaker 4: that you had had in poll after poll sixty five

64
00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,359
Speaker 4: seventy five eighty percent, which are hard numbers to get

65
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,920
Speaker 4: in American politics, a voter saying that he should step

66
00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,480
Speaker 4: aside early in the Democratic primaries, you know, or when

67
00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,639
Speaker 4: there wasn't really a Democratic primary, but when there might

68
00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,520
Speaker 4: have been a plurality or majority of Democrats depending on

69
00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,440
Speaker 4: the poll, didn't want him to run again. Go watch

70
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,480
Speaker 4: his convention speech in twenty sixteen. There was not a

71
00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,400
Speaker 4: better speech at that convention. I mean, he just took

72
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,800
Speaker 4: Donald Trump apart. If that guy had run against Donald

73
00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,120
Speaker 4: Trump at twenty sixteen, he would have won by six points.

74
00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,680
Speaker 2: Because because we league not.

75
00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,720
Speaker 5: Only by the example of our power, but by the

76
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,880
Speaker 5: power of our example. That is the history of the

77
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:03,960
Speaker 5: journey of America. God willing, God willing, Hillary Clinton will

78
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,120
Speaker 5: write the next chapter in that journey. We are America

79
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:13,040
Speaker 5: second to none, and we own the finish line. Don't

80
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:17,880
Speaker 5: forget it. God bless you all, and may God protect

81
00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:19,719
Speaker 5: our trips come.

82
00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:27,479
Speaker 4: You're America. And I think Joe Biden gets credit for

83
00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,880
Speaker 4: doing something that is extraordinarily rare, not just in American

84
00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:36,599
Speaker 4: politics but in politics worldwide, which is having ultimate political power,

85
00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:38,880
Speaker 4: having a chance of keeping it right. I mean, he

86
00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,000
Speaker 4: was never that far behind Donald Trump and the polls

87
00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,360
Speaker 4: and giving it up because that was the better thing

88
00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,480
Speaker 4: to do for the country. I mean, I know people

89
00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,320
Speaker 4: who say, oh, he did it too later, he never

90
00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,159
Speaker 4: should have run fine sale that. But the kinds of

91
00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,200
Speaker 4: personalities that become leaders of nations, these are people who

92
00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,720
Speaker 4: want power, not people who find it easy to say

93
00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,560
Speaker 4: no to power. And so what Biden and in the end,

94
00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,320
Speaker 4: I do think was heroic and historic.

95
00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,080
Speaker 3: He definitely solidified his legacy and wasn't part of the

96
00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,760
Speaker 3: reluctance for the Democratic Party to sort of acknowledge what

97
00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,120
Speaker 3: was happening and was unfolding in front of our eyes

98
00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:16,960
Speaker 3: was the fear that there was no replacement, right, that

99
00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,200
Speaker 3: Kamala Harris didn't have the popularity that's required in order

100
00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,159
Speaker 3: to become the candidate. And it was so interesting. I

101
00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,920
Speaker 3: think if there'd been more time between Biden stepping down

102
00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,280
Speaker 3: and then Kamala Harris becoming the candidate, maybe there we

103
00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,880
Speaker 3: would have had more time to talk about is she electable?

104
00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:32,760
Speaker 2: Can you know? Can she do this in America? Get

105
00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:33,240
Speaker 2: on board?

106
00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,039
Speaker 3: And it's almost like, because there wasn't enough time for

107
00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,480
Speaker 3: people to doubt it, her popularity sort of spoke for itself.

108
00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:41,359
Speaker 3: But I'm curious how you see that, how do you

109
00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:42,880
Speaker 3: explain her popularity right now?

110
00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:44,680
Speaker 4: So I think there are two things happening at that time.

111
00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,440
Speaker 4: So one was a lot of people around Biden and

112
00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,000
Speaker 4: the Democratic Party. This was not, in my view, some

113
00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,120
Speaker 4: grand cover up. And the way you know it wasn't

114
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,480
Speaker 4: a grand cover up is because the Biden campaign team

115
00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,240
Speaker 4: negotiated an early debate. They thought he could do it right.

116
00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,080
Speaker 4: And you know, maybe they were fooling themselves, maybe they

117
00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,200
Speaker 4: were seeing something we weren't. Maybe they weren't accepting things

118
00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,200
Speaker 4: they were seeing. Some days, there are a lot of

119
00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,480
Speaker 4: ways people sort of can negotiate internally something that is

120
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,119
Speaker 4: maybe not true or reality they don't want to accept.

121
00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:14,960
Speaker 4: But I do think that was happening. The view that

122
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,320
Speaker 4: they sort of knew this was a disaster is not

123
00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,400
Speaker 4: aligned to what ultimately their actions really were, So I

124
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,760
Speaker 4: think you should believe their actions. But then, yeah, Liz,

125
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,120
Speaker 4: what you're saying is true. When I was doing this reporting,

126
00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,080
Speaker 4: the thing that I kept hearing from people who understood

127
00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,520
Speaker 4: Joe Biden's age to be a potentially insufferable political problem

128
00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,800
Speaker 4: was well, the only really likely replacement is Harris, and

129
00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,200
Speaker 4: Harris cannot win Pennsylvania, Michigan, in Wisconsin, right, And that

130
00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,279
Speaker 4: was the view. And Harris had trailed Joe Biden in

131
00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,240
Speaker 4: popularity for much of his presidential term. She was at

132
00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,800
Speaker 4: that point still to my knowledge, if I'm remembering the

133
00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,680
Speaker 4: polling right trailing him a bit. The Democratic Party had

134
00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,040
Speaker 4: lost a lot of faith in her over the course

135
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,839
Speaker 4: of Joe Biden's presidency. I said, then, I think it

136
00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,000
Speaker 4: has proven true that that was always a little bit

137
00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,920
Speaker 4: is sterious, and she'd become underrated because nothing had actually

138
00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,839
Speaker 4: gone wrong for her in any very significant way. I mean,

139
00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:07,960
Speaker 4: she had a kind of bad luster whole interview, but

140
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,200
Speaker 4: that wasn't enough to explain how far her star had

141
00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,880
Speaker 4: fallen among many sort of Democratic insiders.

142
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,800
Speaker 1: I think Estra, just to interject real quickly, I think

143
00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,520
Speaker 1: part of the problem was she was almost in the

144
00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,760
Speaker 1: witness protection program. I think this philosophy of not making

145
00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,840
Speaker 1: Joe Biden available for interviews and not having him interface

146
00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 1: with a lot of journalists kept her away from the press.

147
00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,480
Speaker 1: They could have done even joint interviews that reinforced that

148
00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,360
Speaker 1: they had a good working relationship, but I feel like

149
00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,840
Speaker 1: he kept her away from the media, and then when

150
00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,440
Speaker 1: she did interviews like the Lester Hold interview or some

151
00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,720
Speaker 1: other interviews and didn't fare well, it solidified this idea

152
00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:48,640
Speaker 1: that she wasn't that competent.

153
00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,120
Speaker 4: I think this one's hard to say. I know that

154
00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,400
Speaker 4: she did an interview with you in January. Commos is

155
00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,720
Speaker 4: not like she does not do many media interviews, right,

156
00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,400
Speaker 4: That is an authentic, I think thing to her. I

157
00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,240
Speaker 4: don't think it's a strong format for her. I don't

158
00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,920
Speaker 4: really understand why. Oftentimes she's very very good defending Biden

159
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,080
Speaker 4: after the debate, but in a lot of the media

160
00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,920
Speaker 4: interviews she's given, she will not answer questions that are

161
00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,520
Speaker 4: very straightforward, and she gets tripped up by straightforward to

162
00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,320
Speaker 4: questions in a way I don't understand.

163
00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,239
Speaker 1: It's almost like she's ticking off talking points.

164
00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:20,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, It's like you can watch her firing up the

165
00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,680
Speaker 4: nearest script, whereas in a debate she's excellent, right, And

166
00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,560
Speaker 4: she was good in her interview with you. I remember

167
00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,400
Speaker 4: listening to it while I was trying to think about

168
00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,000
Speaker 4: all this and trying to find interviews of her. So

169
00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,000
Speaker 4: I came across her with you, and I think that's

170
00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,640
Speaker 4: one of her better interviews. So she's definitely capable of

171
00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:37,079
Speaker 4: doing it.

172
00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I still think she often ticks off talking points.

173
00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,640
Speaker 1: It's almost like she's afraid she's going to say something

174
00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:48,000
Speaker 1: wrong when I saw Kamala Harris debate, I thought, Wow,

175
00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,199
Speaker 1: she did a really good job. Perhaps she'll feel liberated

176
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,440
Speaker 1: to do more interviews because she's quick on her feet,

177
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,480
Speaker 1: she has a facility with facts and figures. And then

178
00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,480
Speaker 1: it went right back to kind of sounding scripted in

179
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,600
Speaker 1: interview situations I couldn't figure out. But anyway, continue your

180
00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:05,800
Speaker 1: earlier point is raight.

181
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,760
Speaker 4: So there was this view that she wasn't up to it.

182
00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:10,360
Speaker 4: This was a really big thing in the party, to

183
00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,560
Speaker 4: be fair with something that people around Joe Biden were

184
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,760
Speaker 4: saying in order to fortify his position, and then by

185
00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,040
Speaker 4: the time he dropped out, there was not time for

186
00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,040
Speaker 4: what a lot of people in the party thought they

187
00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,679
Speaker 4: should have, by the way, something Kamala Harris quietly also

188
00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,000
Speaker 4: thought they should have because she thought it'd be better for her,

189
00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,160
Speaker 4: which was some kind of competitive process.

190
00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,719
Speaker 1: In fact, you advocated that as where you said there

191
00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:35,040
Speaker 1: should be an open convention so people could really determine

192
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,360
Speaker 1: who was the strongest candidate against Trump. Given that, were

193
00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:43,040
Speaker 1: you surprised that her popularity, as Liz mentioned, was almost

194
00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,959
Speaker 1: instantaneous and among Democrats, very very strong.

195
00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,199
Speaker 4: I wasn't surprised that her popularity among Democrats was strong.

196
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,480
Speaker 4: I was surprised by how much her overall favorables among

197
00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,360
Speaker 4: the electorate rose. Look, I think we're going to see

198
00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,640
Speaker 4: in the election ultimately, right, if Kamala Harris the election

199
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,320
Speaker 4: right and she particularly like wins it convincingly, you know,

200
00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,560
Speaker 4: the sense that Kamala Harris was terribly underrated is going

201
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,320
Speaker 4: to be true. Right, it will just have been true.

202
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,280
Speaker 4: And if Harris, if the polling errors in the other

203
00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,480
Speaker 4: direction and Harris loses Michigan and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, then

204
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,240
Speaker 4: the sense that she is maybe not the candidate, you know,

205
00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,160
Speaker 4: a California Liberal that you would have picked to run

206
00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,520
Speaker 4: in those states, and she doesn't win North Carolina in Arizona,

207
00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,000
Speaker 4: which looked like harter states for her anyway, then the

208
00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,680
Speaker 4: sense that the Democratic Party probably didn't have, you know,

209
00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,760
Speaker 4: the exact person you would have wanted to run in

210
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,120
Speaker 4: those states is going to congeal. I am not willing

211
00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,760
Speaker 4: at this junk. I think she's been a much stronger candidate,

212
00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,240
Speaker 4: and I did podcasts about how she's underrated and had

213
00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,680
Speaker 4: always said then, no matter what process you do, she

214
00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,760
Speaker 4: is the most likely candidate out of it. So if

215
00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,240
Speaker 4: you wanted to replace Biden on the ticket as I did.

216
00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,000
Speaker 4: You always had to be comfortable with Kamala Harris being

217
00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,600
Speaker 4: the candidate because she was probably going to win no

218
00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,720
Speaker 4: matter how you did it. And I was comfortable with that.

219
00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,240
Speaker 4: So I was willing to make that argument at a

220
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,960
Speaker 4: time some people didn't think it made sense. But look,

221
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,719
Speaker 4: if Democrats lose this here, there's going to be a

222
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:07,040
Speaker 4: lot of anger, you know, if they lose because of

223
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,200
Speaker 4: Pennsylvania where she didn't pict Shapiro, there's going to be

224
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,760
Speaker 4: a lot of anger. So you've been around this longer

225
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,920
Speaker 4: than I have, but I'm always careful before getting ahead

226
00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,160
Speaker 4: of a narrative when we haven't seen the election play out.

227
00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,400
Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a

228
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,720
Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and

229
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,080
Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,

230
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:45,240
Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Let's

231
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:50,280
Speaker 1: talk about Trump calling her mentally impaired. You know, there

232
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,720
Speaker 1: don't seem to be any consequences for him making statements

233
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 1: like that, and gosh, a whole myriad of other insults

234
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,280
Speaker 1: He does, though, seem to be having a hard time

235
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,920
Speaker 1: running against her and be slightly flummixed by her candidacy.

236
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,120
Speaker 1: A friend of mine said, the lummix is flummixed, and

237
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:16,120
Speaker 1: so I'm curious your observations on how he's trying to

238
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,080
Speaker 1: position her and position himself against her.

239
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:25,120
Speaker 4: My observations about Donald Trump's positioning. I think with Donald Trump,

240
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:30,559
Speaker 4: you are dealing with someone who is intuitive and not strategic,

241
00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,160
Speaker 4: and that's who he's always been. That people say there's

242
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,679
Speaker 4: maybe even some age related deterioration in him. I mean,

243
00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,640
Speaker 4: he's not a spring chicken, as I say. I think

244
00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:43,920
Speaker 4: that's probably true as well his inability to stick to

245
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,920
Speaker 4: a line of attack on her as a leftist California

246
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,280
Speaker 4: flip flopper. Will I was speaking a minute ago about

247
00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,040
Speaker 4: how narratives take hold after elections. If he loses his

248
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,240
Speaker 4: election convincingly, which in my view is a pretty good shot.

249
00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,800
Speaker 4: The view that he completely blew for him a winnable

250
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,760
Speaker 4: election because he didn't have a shred of self discipline

251
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,199
Speaker 4: will take very stronghold. He could have run against her

252
00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,920
Speaker 4: on election. I'm election on inflation, on the set of

253
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,480
Speaker 4: positions she took in twenty twenty, where she swung very

254
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,080
Speaker 4: far to the left to try to out flank Bernie Sanders,

255
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,760
Speaker 4: there was a the Joe Biden admistration is unpopular and

256
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,120
Speaker 4: his record is unpopular, and she is part of that administration.

257
00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,440
Speaker 4: I mean the way that a normal Republican candidate, right,

258
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,480
Speaker 4: if the Republicans had gone another direction and picked Nicki Haley,

259
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,600
Speaker 4: The way Nicki Haley would run against Kamala Harris is obvious.

260
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,800
Speaker 4: It rights itself, and I think most people bet that

261
00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,840
Speaker 4: Haley would have won. And Donald Trump he can only

262
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:52,680
Speaker 4: be who he is, and her ability to dangle obvious

263
00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,120
Speaker 4: bait at him in front of the during the debate

264
00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,080
Speaker 4: and say, you know, on his strongest issue, immigration, Oh

265
00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,200
Speaker 4: but you have you know, bored people wandering out at

266
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:01,880
Speaker 4: your crowds.

267
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,400
Speaker 1: I was going to say his second strongest issue, crowd size.

268
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, And the guy snorts and like pause at

269
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,720
Speaker 4: the ground and charges that was it wasn't just that

270
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,280
Speaker 4: he's got that failure in the moment at a debate.

271
00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,960
Speaker 4: It is a core personality problem in him, right, a

272
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,640
Speaker 4: core temperamental problem that is playing out all across the election.

273
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you brought up discipline, which I think is

274
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 3: such an important word. I was watching Joe Rogan's take

275
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,960
Speaker 3: on the debate to him, the discrediting thing about the

276
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,640
Speaker 3: debate was his lack of discipline, that she came off

277
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,240
Speaker 3: as not just more prepared, being able to stay on topic.

278
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:44,120
Speaker 3: And to me, discipline is actually a masculine or traditionally

279
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,680
Speaker 3: masculine quality, right there is definitely and I think we're

280
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,360
Speaker 3: going to get into it, just the gender divide of

281
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,360
Speaker 3: this election. You know, a lot of men are not

282
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 3: on board with Kamala Harris and are you know, have

283
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,680
Speaker 3: been moving away from the Democratic Party for a while now,

284
00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,840
Speaker 3: but it's even more significant in this election. And part

285
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,960
Speaker 3: of me wonders, like, I mean, watching Kamala Harris her

286
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,040
Speaker 3: speech at the DNC and some of these media appearances,

287
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,440
Speaker 3: they almost seem like, yes, she's talking about abortion, she's

288
00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,600
Speaker 3: talking about reproductive rights. She's definitely speaking to women. But

289
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,840
Speaker 3: some of these I think soundbites are like for the dudes.

290
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,040
Speaker 3: You know, her talking about America being the most like

291
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,880
Speaker 3: lethal force in the world, talking about shooting people if

292
00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,840
Speaker 3: they come into her home. Do you see her kind

293
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,560
Speaker 3: of signaling to men and male voters in a way

294
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,920
Speaker 3: that's maybe not as overt as what Donald Trump is doing,

295
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:35,960
Speaker 3: And do you see it working?

296
00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:38,840
Speaker 4: I probably have a slightly different view and where it

297
00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,080
Speaker 4: comes from. I think there's like a bunch of interesting

298
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:42,480
Speaker 4: things to pick up on there. I'd love to talk.

299
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,160
Speaker 4: I feel like you get a whole podcast on this

300
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,880
Speaker 4: question of whether discipline is male coded in American politics,

301
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,840
Speaker 4: and I'd love to think about that. Kummeleris comes out

302
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:55,520
Speaker 4: of a black political tradition. She is a moderate law

303
00:15:55,520 --> 00:16:00,960
Speaker 4: and order black urban politician, right, that's where she comes

304
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,080
Speaker 4: from in San Francisco, and San Francisco is thought of

305
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,040
Speaker 4: as very liberal. In many ways, it is very liberal,

306
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,560
Speaker 4: but as somebody who's lived there and grew up in California,

307
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,960
Speaker 4: San Francisco is a city that has always struggled terribly

308
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:17,200
Speaker 4: with disorder, right with drug use, with homelessness, with a

309
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:22,600
Speaker 4: kind of burbling chaos that often feels like it is

310
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,160
Speaker 4: only inches from consuming much of the rest of the city.

311
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,320
Speaker 4: And Harris emerges as a DA there. She runs against

312
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,120
Speaker 4: the existing DA as bad at winning prosecutions. She becomes

313
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 4: ag of California on a somewhat similar argument, running against

314
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,600
Speaker 4: some more law and order republican from Los Angeles and

315
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,160
Speaker 4: right and left, male and female, the kinds of voters

316
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,360
Speaker 4: Harris like cut her political teeth knowing how to appeal

317
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,160
Speaker 4: to were voters who wanted somebody who would catch bad guys,

318
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 4: who would put bad people behind bars. I mean the movement,

319
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,200
Speaker 4: which I think is the cause of a lot of

320
00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,040
Speaker 4: her sort of political instability in twenty twenty, where the

321
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,560
Speaker 4: Democratic Party wanted her to succeed but had turned sharply

322
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,439
Speaker 4: against law and order politics, and like that creates this

323
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,200
Speaker 4: kind of space where she can't be who she really

324
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,440
Speaker 4: is politically, but never really finds another political identity to inhabit,

325
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:16,840
Speaker 4: and then ends up kind of looking correless and having

326
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,040
Speaker 4: taken a bunch of positions, she's now walked back from

327
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,760
Speaker 4: what Harris is reinhabiting here when she puts out these

328
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,719
Speaker 4: ads where she's you know, stalking across the border and

329
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,439
Speaker 4: you know, saluting border guards and saying, you know, fixing

330
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,600
Speaker 4: the border is tough, and so is Kamala Harris and

331
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,280
Speaker 4: saying if anybody comes into her house, they're going to

332
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,840
Speaker 4: get shot. Right. If you look at black politicians from

333
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,880
Speaker 4: urban areas, you know, over the nineties, over the two thousand's,

334
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,359
Speaker 4: this is a long political tradition. I mean, go back

335
00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 4: to the eighties, go back to the seventies. Right, there's

336
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,360
Speaker 4: nothing actually all that new about it, and it's really

337
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,360
Speaker 4: that Democrats kind of abandoned it for a period of time,

338
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,879
Speaker 4: and now she's running at a time when you know

339
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,280
Speaker 4: she can pick it back up. And even more than that,

340
00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,520
Speaker 4: runn against guy who's a convicted criminal, which allows you

341
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:01,760
Speaker 4: to really reinhabit that.

342
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,600
Speaker 1: So if that's the case, why are so many young men?

343
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,119
Speaker 1: This is what I'm fascinated by, and I know Liz

344
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,600
Speaker 1: is too, are turned off by Kamala Harris. There's an

345
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,440
Speaker 1: NBC News poll of gen Z adults found that young

346
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 1: women favored Harris over Trump by thirty points, while young

347
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,520
Speaker 1: men favored Harris by just four points. Let's dig into

348
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,480
Speaker 1: the gender gap for a few minutes, as we what

349
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,760
Speaker 1: is happening with young men in this country? Why do

350
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,240
Speaker 1: they seem to be gravitating or some of them to

351
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,320
Speaker 1: the kind of macho Donald Trump messaging that we're hearing

352
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,280
Speaker 1: again and again and that he's going to protect women,

353
00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,959
Speaker 1: which we'll talk about in a moment, but what is

354
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,200
Speaker 1: going on with young men?

355
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,679
Speaker 4: So this is candidate agnostic. I should say. There was

356
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,040
Speaker 4: a big Wall Street journal piece on this using Biden

357
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,040
Speaker 4: and Trump pulling a couple weeks, a couple of months ago,

358
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 4: and so Biden was hemorrhaging support among young men. That's

359
00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,760
Speaker 4: part of why Donald Trump's knight at the RNC was

360
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,720
Speaker 4: like like a Vegas show about masculinity, right, like Whule

361
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,600
Speaker 4: Cogan like ripping off his shirt to you know, for

362
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,240
Speaker 4: all the little Trumpsters out there. And you had Dana White,

363
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,400
Speaker 4: you know, the head of the UFC introducing Donald Trump.

364
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 4: I mean the whole thing was the campiest masculinity, like.

365
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:19,479
Speaker 1: Not cho much show man, you just expected the village people.

366
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, like as a text for Judith Butler, it was

367
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,680
Speaker 4: extremely rich. So you get that happening. I mean, what's

368
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 4: happening with young men? But I wouldn't tell you, I

369
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,480
Speaker 4: know entirely, and I'd actually really loved he here Liz

370
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,679
Speaker 4: as part of it. But there we have had a

371
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,040
Speaker 4: very sharp in this era of politics and part of

372
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 4: the digital politics shift in sort of the moras right,

373
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,399
Speaker 4: like we talk about the future as female, and we

374
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:49,200
Speaker 4: talk about toxic masculinity, and there's like a million descriptions

375
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 4: of like how traits that are traditionally male are bad.

376
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:53,920
Speaker 4: You have the Home Me Too movement, you.

377
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,360
Speaker 1: Have DEI which left a lot of white males feeling marginalized.

378
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,720
Speaker 4: Those are that too. You know. You then have the

379
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 4: rise of people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Taate. There's

380
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 4: a lot of you know, can you say any of

381
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 4: these politically correct things? And all this is sort of

382
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 4: like much of it is very good, much of it

383
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 4: is natural, right. You know, you're having a feminization of

384
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,439
Speaker 4: politics and power generally as people sort of push to

385
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,919
Speaker 4: have more representation. But that's going to create backlash, right,

386
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,719
Speaker 4: I mean, that is the nature of every political movement

387
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 4: like this that we have ever seen, and you're seeing it,

388
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 4: I think specifically among young men. I do think it

389
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,719
Speaker 4: is somewhat supercharged by the way media fractures, and you

390
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,919
Speaker 4: have a lot of young men in sort of you know,

391
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 4: twitch politics, right, you know, the in sort of sports

392
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 4: talk radio, which has become somewhat more rte coded in

393
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 4: recent years. Although that's not all that new. People forget

394
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 4: that Rush Limbaugh begins as a sports broadcaster, not as

395
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,000
Speaker 4: a political broadcaster. Joe Rogan is I think not as

396
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:52,800
Speaker 4: right as he is sometimes made out to be. He's

397
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,440
Speaker 4: a sort of but he is a kind of frustrated

398
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,679
Speaker 4: masculine id politics, and I would say in general, the

399
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,000
Speaker 4: Demo Party was not trying to talk to men, and

400
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 4: when it was, it was in a pretty scolding, dismissive tone.

401
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 4: The sort of elevation of Tim Walls as a kind

402
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 4: of masculinity that can be embraced and rallied behind is

403
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,440
Speaker 4: a pretty significant change from where things were four years ago,

404
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,119
Speaker 4: you know, maybe even a bit more than that. So

405
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,200
Speaker 4: I think we've been through a pretty intense oscillation in politics,

406
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 4: not the only one, but one of them that has

407
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,919
Speaker 4: been really alienating to young men who were coming of

408
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 4: age as part of it, and they began gravitating to

409
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,439
Speaker 4: voices who said, no, you don't have to change everything

410
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 4: about you. In fact, you're great. You know, you should

411
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 4: be watching combat sports and saying things that offend people

412
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 4: and risk taking and you know, and all the things

413
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 4: that that sort of appeal to you, and playing your

414
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 4: video games and whatever. And then sort of Donald Trump

415
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 4: comes up and tries to embrace that, I think, you know,

416
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 4: in crypto and all the rest of it, in maybe

417
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 4: a hamhanded way, but nevertheless a very obvious way. And

418
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 4: I think it's actually to the c of Harrison and

419
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 4: Walls and the Democrats that they're trying to come up

420
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 4: with a sort of counter narrative here. But yeah, I

421
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 4: think you're looking at backlash to what was a very

422
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 4: rapid and intense ideological shift and change. But Liz has

423
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,160
Speaker 4: been sort of part of this and been part of

424
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 4: the Internet in this period, so I'd be curious for

425
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 4: her take on.

426
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 1: That me too. And I wonder also how effective a

427
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 1: masculine archetype Tim Walls actually is. Is he enough to

428
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 1: sort of mediate some of these feelings of anger among

429
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 1: young white men? Liz, your thoughts.

430
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

431
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 3: Also, it could just be a whole hour on this. Yeah,

432
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 3: to me, Trump was always running as a man, right,

433
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 3: And that sounds like obvious, right, But we really don't

434
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 3: think about when we think about gender, we think about women,

435
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 3: and we've been talking there's so many ways that women's

436
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 3: lives are gendered, but like men's lives are so gender too,

437
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 3: And back in twenty sixteen, you know, Trump was again,

438
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 3: you know, playing up his masculinity in all kinds of

439
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 3: different ways. And by the way, Trump is not the first,

440
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 3: you know, candidate to do this. I think amongst Republicans,

441
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,479
Speaker 3: it's very it's very charged. I mean Mark or Rubio

442
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 3: wore heels, you know when he ran for president, I

443
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 3: mean allegedly, right, like we don't have any proof, but

444
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 3: but to appear taller, right, Trump called Ted Cruz the

445
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 3: P word, right, calling him basically a woman and discrediting,

446
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 3: you know, sort of demeaning him, using that kind of

447
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 3: language of and masculating him. And I think this time

448
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 3: around he is doubling down on it. And I totally

449
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 3: agree with Ezra. I think that there's been such a

450
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 3: void basically on the left.

451
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: And you mean avoid in terms of appealing to young

452
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: white men.

453
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, or just talking about men.

454
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 3: Right, you have one party that speaks directly to men,

455
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 3: and in very it's not a subtext, it's very overt.

456
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 3: Right in twenty sixteen, it was you know, it's harder

457
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 3: for men now than it is for women, you know,

458
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 3: Trump saying that around the Kavanaugh hearing and sort of

459
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 3: post me to. So you have one party that's acknowledging

460
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 3: the feelings of a lot of men, and you have

461
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 3: the other party that is, I think often completely ignoring

462
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 3: those feelings. And it's almost like the new deplorable, where

463
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 3: I think sometimes in democratic circles you will hear someone

464
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 3: bring up masculinity or bring up disaffected young men, and

465
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 3: it's sort of like, well, those guys are red pill,

466
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,360
Speaker 3: those guys are almost right, like, we don't even want

467
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 3: to try and convert those people. And to me, it's

468
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 3: such a missed opportunity. And as I was listening to

469
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 3: your interview with Richard Reeves, which everyone should go listen to,

470
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 3: it's a really interesting conversation and I think one of

471
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 3: the few conversations where that hold space both for talking

472
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 3: about men's what's sort of happening to men and boys

473
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 3: in this country and sort of around the world, and

474
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 3: you know, holding space for what's happening to women and

475
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 3: actually connecting those conversations, to me, has been the biggest

476
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 3: failure here. I think in the progressive movement that a

477
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: lot of the problems that do plague men have to

478
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 3: do actually with patriarchy, have to do with a lack

479
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 3: of nurturing of boys and men.

480
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 2: I'll end on this note, but I think that Democrats.

481
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 3: Actually have a lot of policies that are very helpful

482
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 3: to men, and they don't message it. And then you know,

483
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 3: on the right, I think you have policies that actually

484
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 3: might be detrimental to them, but they're very good at messaging.

485
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 3: You know that this will help you, and so I

486
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 3: see that that as one of the main disconnects.

487
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,239
Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot to chew on their Liz. I

488
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: think you're right though, I feel that they have been

489
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,479
Speaker 1: ignored and disregarded, and it was just a lot all

490
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: those things that Ezra outlined coming fast and furiously from

491
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: me too to now more lost students and met students

492
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: are women too, as I mentioned DEI and feeling like

493
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: that they weren't going to get into the school of

494
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 1: their choice because of affirmative action. I just think it's

495
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: a whole crock pot of things that they have seized on.

496
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: But I do want to pick up what Ezra said

497
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: about Tim Walls as a way to kind of balance

498
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 1: where the Democrats were going. How do you think he

499
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: helps Kamala because as you said earlier, a lot of

500
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 1: people may second guess the decision not to tap Josh Sapiro.

501
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: But how does this archetype in your view or is

502
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: it enough to bring in some of these young, disaffected

503
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: male voters.

504
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 4: I'll say it's a dangerous time to be trying to

505
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 4: answer this question because of the vice presidential debate, which

506
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,719
Speaker 4: will be his best chance to help Kamala Harris as

507
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 4: tomorrow night. So anything I say might end up looking

508
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 4: very different one way or the other after that debate.

509
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 1: Well, let's not even talk about the debate, just talk

510
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: about sort of his candidacy. Writ Largely.

511
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 4: The reason I mentioned the debate because I do want

512
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 4: a timestamp where we are, is he probably won't help

513
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 4: Kamala Harris here. Vice presidential candidates genuinely don't write. They

514
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 4: generally do not do a lot in one direction or another.

515
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 4: I don't think Joe Biden.

516
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: I would argue that Sarah Palin hurt John McCain.

517
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 4: You can, in extreme conditions hurt right, And I think

518
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 4: Jade Vance is hurting Donald Trump for other reasons. But

519
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 4: I would be surprised to see Wall's help. I will

520
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 4: say I've been a little surprised and frankly dismayed at

521
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 4: the way the campaign is using or I will say,

522
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 4: not using Tim Walls. I had him on my show

523
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 4: like four days before he was named vice president. It's

524
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 4: one of my favorite interviews I've done with the politician ever,

525
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 4: and we talk about the problems of young men, and

526
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 4: he's great at talking about it. And Tim Walls won

527
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 4: that vice presidential slot in large part because of how

528
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 4: good he was in the media, how good. He's a

529
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 4: rare politician who when you interview him you can see

530
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 4: him thinking and responding in real time. And they locked

531
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 4: him up the same way they've locked her up.

532
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 6: Why.

533
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 4: I don't understand the level of caution that campaign has.

534
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 4: But I would be putting Tim Walls on like Lex

535
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 4: Friedman on Joe.

536
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: On next question, on next question, even though he's probably speaking,

537
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: you know, preaching to the choir. But you're right, why

538
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: aren't they?

539
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 4: But I would have him out. I would have him

540
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 4: out on sports talk radio. Right, that's a dude who

541
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 4: can talk sports. He ran, you know, he helped coach

542
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 4: a team to the state championships. Like, let Tim Walls

543
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 4: be Tim Walls. Like let Kamala Harris go out and

544
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 4: be Kamala Harris. They're running in very risk averse ways,

545
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 4: which I kind of get. But they're not that far ahead, right,

546
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 4: They're not so far ahead that I wouldn't like to

547
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 4: see them trying to pick up marginal voters in places

548
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 4: where the people who are sort of on the bubble

549
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 4: about them might reside well, you're an insider.

550
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: Why are they running the campaign this way? As I

551
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: feel like you've got a lot of sources within the campaign,

552
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: do you ask them about that? Because I'm very frustrated too,

553
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: because not only because I want to interview both of

554
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: these people, but I just don't understand why they are

555
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: not everywhere. And now I feel like when they do

556
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: interviews they do so few. The stakes are really high.

557
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: And it was interesting because just a few days before

558
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: Stephanie Rule interviewed Kamala Harris on MSNBC. She had this

559
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: to say on Bill Maher.

560
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 7: It would be great for her to sit down with

561
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 7: you or George Stephanopolis or you Stephanie and gave a succession.

562
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 4: As if she'd sit down.

563
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 7: With you, asked her, ask her no nook.

564
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: George W.

565
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 7: Bush twenty five years ago was asked if he could

566
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 7: name the president of Pakistan other people. He had no idea,

567
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 7: and people said, this guy has no command of a

568
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 7: foreign policy, and it turned out to be a pression

569
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 7: set of questions. It's not too much to ask Kamala,

570
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 7: say are you for a Palestinian state if Hamas is

571
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 7: going to run that state?

572
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: Okay, yes or no?

573
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 8: And Let's say you don't like her answer. Are you

574
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 8: going to vote for Donald Trump?

575
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 7: No, I'm not.

576
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: I said, I'm not going to vote.

577
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 8: Not running for perfect, She's running against Trump. We have

578
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 8: two choices, and so there are some things you might

579
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 8: not know her answer to. And in twenty twenty four,

580
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 8: unlike twenty sixteen, for a lot of the American people,

581
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 8: we know exactly what Trump will do, who he is,

582
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 8: and the kind of threat he is to democracy.

583
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was a weird look for them to choose

584
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 4: that right after that. I mean, for all, I know

585
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 4: that was decided before. But look, I don't know why

586
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 4: they're not. I know that the view of this is

587
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 4: many of the same Biden people, right, Her campaign is

588
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 4: run by many of the same people, and their view

589
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 4: was in interviews don't help them that much, particularly the media,

590
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 4: And you know what, I think that's a totally reasonable

591
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 4: perspective instrumentally to take, right. I wish they wouldn't take it,

592
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 4: because I do think it is good for people to

593
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 4: see the candidates and there's an informative role to sitting

594
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 4: and doing I would love to see Kamlah Hairs like

595
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 4: she's always welcome on my show to talk about serious

596
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 4: economic policy and housing. And I've said that to them

597
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 4: and await the response. But I think a lot of

598
00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 4: people hear this as special pleading for the media, which

599
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 4: is politically because I think they're probably right that they're

600
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,719
Speaker 4: not picking up like when they go on MSNBC, Right,

601
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 4: they're not converting a single voter, right, they are doing

602
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 4: that to say they did another interview. They're converting no

603
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 4: one the interviews. Politically, if I were running a campaign,

604
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 4: I would want to see is in places where they're

605
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 4: trying to get people who do not look at them positively.

606
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 4: Right Again, as I was saying, I would love to

607
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 4: see Tim Walls going on the kinds of podcasts and

608
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 4: YouTube shows where these young disaffected men are a sports

609
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 4: talk radio. I mean, Katie, you mentioned a couple of times,

610
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 4: you know, not trying to appeal to young white men.

611
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 4: They're losing men of color, right, They're losing. They've been

612
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 4: hemorrhaging support among men of color in recent years. So

613
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 4: try to go out to the places where the marginal

614
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 4: voters you might need are. I think they feel that

615
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 4: they are running a bit ahead of Donald Trump, and

616
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 4: there's probably more downside risk than than upside risk. And also,

617
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 4: and you know this, you've covered you know, a lot

618
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 4: of presidential campaigns. Campaigns almost always have the character of

619
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,719
Speaker 4: the campaigner, right like as any organization does, even if

620
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 4: it doesn't really want to. Organizations take on the preferences,

621
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 4: the temperament, the tendencies, the strategies of the people who

622
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 4: are at their center. Kamala Harris doesn't like doing interviews.

623
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 4: The Kamala Harris campaign does not prioritize doing interviews. She

624
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 4: does like doing speeches. They prioritize doing speeches, right. You know.

625
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 4: Donald Trump is doing way fewer rallies, but it is

626
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 4: a campaign that likes rallies to the extent that it

627
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 4: likes anything any he you know, he likes going on

628
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 4: in these sort of weird you know, talkie formats, So

629
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 4: he does that. Campaigns Ultimately, whatever even their strategic views are,

630
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 4: they end up reflecting what the candidates actually want to do.

631
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 4: When you're sitting there with a million things to do

632
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 4: with the time of these two people, and you know,

633
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 4: you say, hey, you know, Vice President, we have a

634
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 4: couple of ideas for podcasts you should go on. She's like,

635
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 4: really do we have like you know, and you've got

636
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 4: to really justify it, and what if it goes bad

637
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 4: soon enough you stop suggesting that, and you know, like, hey,

638
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,239
Speaker 4: we've got for more places in Pennsylvania you can make

639
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 4: a stop at. And she's like great, Like we're doing that.

640
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: Before we dig into jd Vance. And I know Liz

641
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: has a lot to say about him as to you, Ezra,

642
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: and the future of MAGA and how he kind of

643
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: represents a new breed of MAGA. You did a podcast

644
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: on this, Ezra. I want to ask you about the

645
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: criticism that she hasn't gotten specific enough in policy issues.

646
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: I interviewed Hillary Clinton recently and she made the point

647
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: that Hillary was criticized for being too specific and kind

648
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: of suggested there might be a double standard. She said,

649
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: Trump himself claimed only to have a concept of a

650
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: plan when asked about healthcare reform and the debate, and

651
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 1: Hillary said to me this, I.

652
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 6: Was accused of being too specific, too specific a lot

653
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 6: of other things, but certainly that, and I was also

654
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 6: I put out a book about my policies, I gave

655
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 6: speeches about my policies. At the end of the campaign,

656
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 6: nobody knew anything about my policies. And I just think

657
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 6: it's a trap. But when I hear people say that,

658
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 6: it kind of makes me think, well, compared to what or.

659
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,959
Speaker 1: Is something else text there?

660
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 6: And that's right, Katie, I mean, is it like I

661
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 6: just need to know more?

662
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: Well?

663
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 6: I think part of it is what they're really saying,

664
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 6: I just have to be more comfortable voting for a

665
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 6: woman and voting for this woman.

666
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: So she's basically saying it is veiled secon these demands

667
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: for Kamala Harris to get more specific about policy when

668
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 1: Donald Trump is kind of all over the place. I'd

669
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: love to get your take on that idea. What do

670
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: you think of this idea that there may be something

671
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: else going on and it may be thinly veiled sexism, Ezra.

672
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 4: I think that's ridiculous, honestly, that it's thinly veiled sexism.

673
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,439
Speaker 4: To want policy details from candidates as somebody who's covered

674
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 4: policy among many male candidates, we wanted from them, as

675
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 4: somebody who's attacked Donald Trump relentlessly for not having details

676
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 4: on his policies. And that's why actually Project twenty twenty

677
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 4: five is entered the picture because it offered the detailed

678
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 4: Trump didn't, right, I think being vague has actually hurt

679
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 4: Donald Trump. I have a different view I think on

680
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 4: Kamala Harris and policy releases though than a lot of people. Look,

681
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 4: they just released an eighty page economic policy briefing book,

682
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 4: and to be honest, I don't think it's not helpful

683
00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 4: at all. I don't really care about candidates having one

684
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty different policies right, something Clinton is talking about.

685
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 4: I do think it was part of her brand that

686
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 4: she knew everything about policy, and that was helpful to

687
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 4: her in my view, not hurtful to her. But nevertheless,

688
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 4: it wasn't obviously helpful enough. But for Harris, what I

689
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 4: wish they had for her, what I wish she had

690
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 4: was the two or three policies that it feels like

691
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 4: she feels really strongly about. So she is having a

692
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 4: lot of trouble, repeatedly trouble answering the question what will

693
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 4: you do first? Right, which is a very obvious question.

694
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 4: Presidencies are all about prioritization. She sits down this Typa

695
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 4: Dana Bash. This also happened on a Pennsylvania with a

696
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 4: local kind of television anchor something, a reporter in Pennsylvania,

697
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 4: and she gets this question like, what are you going

698
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 4: to do specifically, and she starts to do she's like, well,

699
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 4: I'm a middle class kid and I come from here.

700
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 4: And the thing she doesn't really have is the couple

701
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 4: of policies that it feels burned within her to the

702
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 4: extent she does. One where I think this is a

703
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 4: huge exception is Roe. I think you can tell when

704
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 4: she talks about Roe that she will do absolutely everything

705
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 4: in her power that if you will elect Kamala Harris,

706
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 4: she's going to do everything Kamala Harris can do to

707
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,879
Speaker 4: make sure abortion rights are restored and protected. Right. Maybe

708
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 4: she will not be able to do it because it's

709
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 4: in a filibuster, but she's also said they get they

710
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 4: should make an exception to the filibuster for that. So

711
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 4: that's something where when she talks about it, you can

712
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 4: feel that you are hearing this is what this presidency

713
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,959
Speaker 4: will be about. On economic policy, they have a bunch

714
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 4: of policies I can tell you about them. They have

715
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 4: an earned income tax credit expansion. Now, they have a

716
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 4: six thousand dollars credit for the first year of a

717
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 4: baby's life. They've an expanded child tax credit.

718
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: Twenty five thousand dollars for first time homeowners.

719
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 4: There's a lot of different things going on.

720
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 1: But even like asking her, how are you going to

721
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: pay for that? That sounds insane to me.

722
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 4: Well, to be fair, that policy is so weirdly targeted.

723
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 4: It is first time homeowners whose parents did not own

724
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 4: a home, and then there's an income Like when you

725
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 4: read the details, I think they've so micro targeted. I

726
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 4: will not be that expensive. We're that But it's also

727
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 4: not that good of a policy for that reason. But

728
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 4: I had an old political mentor. I've said this a

729
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 4: lot of times this year because it's always in my

730
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 4: head Mark Schmidt, who used to say, it's not what

731
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 4: you say about the policies, it's what the policies say

732
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 4: about you. You could say a lot of things about

733
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 4: Donald Trump and its total lack of policy detail, but

734
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 4: Donald Trump usually is two to three things he talks about.

735
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 4: And the point is not the policy. The point is

736
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 4: that he is signaling what he really fundamentally strongly believes.

737
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 4: And I'm going to deport every undocumented immigrant in the country.

738
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 4: Is saying I hate immigrants and I'm going to do

739
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 4: everything in my power to make America an unwelcoming place

740
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 4: for immigrants of all kinds. His universal tariff proposal reflects

741
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 4: his belief that America is in a constant zero sum

742
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 4: competition with other countries. We are losing that competition, and

743
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 4: the way too prosper as an economy is not to

744
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 4: cooperate with other countries, but to use our power to

745
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 4: negotiate more and more aggressive deals with them. Donald Trump

746
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 4: does not release big, he tailed policy documents, but he

747
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 4: talks about a couple things that actually do give you

748
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 4: a sense of what he really cares about. What I

749
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 4: would like to see on economic policy. I cannot tell

750
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 4: you as somebody who's covered Harris four years and knows

751
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 4: her economic advisors and has read her whole policy book

752
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 4: and has read her policy speech, is actually trying to

753
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 4: do the work here that when she comes into office

754
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 4: and she's to decide what to do, right like with

755
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 4: her scarce political capital, when she wins the election. If

756
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 4: she wins the election, and if she wins the Senate

757
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 4: and the House and they have, you know, like a

758
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 4: tight majority, what are they going to really prioritize? That's

759
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 4: the question, not what do you think about every policy,

760
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 4: but what are the two to three things that really

761
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 4: define not just you, but the way you see the

762
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 4: problems America has right now. Yeah, Hillary Clinton had a

763
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 4: billion policies, and not that many of them said that

764
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 4: much about her. But the thing that her policy said

765
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 4: about her is that Hillary Clinton knew what she was

766
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 4: talking about on everything, and that was known about Hillary Clinton,

767
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 4: and it's one thing a lot of people admired about

768
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 4: her and still admire about her. I don't think Harris

769
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 4: needs to try to be Hillary Clinton in that way.

770
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 4: But having a couple of ideas that reflect who you

771
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 4: are and your core concerns in politics, I don't think

772
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 4: it's a thing to throw overboard.

773
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: What do you think she should say? So, in addition

774
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: to having this burning desire to be an advocate for

775
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: abortion rights in your view, and knowing her and covering her,

776
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: what do you think they are or is that a

777
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: problem that we don't know and you don't know.

778
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think I know on a bunch of issues,

779
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 4: and I've done the reporting to try to understand this.

780
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 4: I've been very excited to see the degree to which

781
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 4: he's emphasized housing affordability. But I've read those policies and

782
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 4: I don't think they're that strong. They're very, very tightly

783
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 4: targeted it's like an expansion of a credit if you're

784
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 4: building homes that are affordable for only first time home buyers.

785
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 4: There's one really good policy in there. It's a forty

786
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 4: billion dollar grant program for states and localities that they

787
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,800
Speaker 4: can apply for it if they have sort of packages

788
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 4: of sort of regulatory changes, et cetera.

789
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: You're pretty to be Yeah, so we get it.

790
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, So like that's good. I would like to see that.

791
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 4: But I don't think that that policy package when you

792
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 4: really read it. If you ask me, is that going

793
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 4: to fulfill her promise to build three million homes? I

794
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 4: will tell you absolutely not. And I've talked to a

795
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 4: bunch of housing experts and they will tell you, if

796
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 4: they're being honest, almost certainly not. I don't know on

797
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 4: the economy what drives her. She was one of the

798
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 4: leaders in the Senate on expanding the child tax credit,

799
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 4: so I could imagine that being it. And she does

800
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 4: have a good proposal for expanding the child a tax credit.

801
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 4: She doesn't talk about it in the way or with

802
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 4: a frame where I'm sure like that's the thing she's

803
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 4: really going to try to sell. It could be something else,

804
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 4: right for Bernie Sanders it was obviously Medicare for all.

805
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 4: For Elizabeth Warren, it was reducing corporate power. There are

806
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 4: a bunch of policies that you could tell really drove

807
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 4: her on that. I think this is the hardest thing

808
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 4: for Kamala Harris, whose background is in law enforcement. I

809
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 4: think Harris is amazing what she's talking about rights. I

810
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 4: think that she has a lot of us on safety.

811
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 4: I think it would have actually made sense for to

812
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 4: emphasize safety a lot more than she has in campaign.

813
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 4: But when you ask me what would I like it

814
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 4: to be, the problem is this is a hard thing

815
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 4: to fake, right. I've got mine. I'm an obsessive about

816
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 4: housing supply, but it's got to be hers, right. And

817
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 4: I think one of the problems she's having talking about

818
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 4: economic policy is the opportunity economy thing. It sounds pulled right.

819
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 1: It sounds yeah, what does that mean?

820
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 4: Even and every politician is always said they're going to

821
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 4: build an opportunity economy. So I'm not trying to be

822
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 4: too hard on this. A lot of these policies are good.

823
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 4: I love an expanded child tax credit. I believe in

824
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 4: expanding the Earning Them tax credit for childless adults, like

825
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 4: there's a lot in there that I support. But what

826
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 4: they're doing now is they're building out a policy book

827
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 4: and not a policy argument, and I would like to

828
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 4: see them build out a policy argument.

829
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: You mentioned childless adults. Liz, let's talk and by talking

830
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: about jd Vance. Oh, no, I don't mean. I don't

831
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 1: mean no, I don't mean Liz as a childless adult,

832
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: although she is. But she's written extensively about this, and

833
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: of course this has become a huge hot button issue,

834
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: as we all know, with jd Vance and the Childish

835
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: cat Lady and all that kind of conversation. So Liz,

836
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 1: let's talk about jd Vance. What would you like to

837
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: ask Ezra? What would you like to say about him?

838
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I really have loved your commentary about it.

839
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 3: Ezra his obsession with fertility right and having children, but

840
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 3: having children in sort of the right, right right, because

841
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 3: he's against or he's not supporting, you know, the protection

842
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 3: of IVF, but he anyway, it's inconsistent, right, But they

843
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 3: clearly want a sort of traditional family model. But what

844
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 3: I really loved about your take on it is that

845
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 3: you compared it to the way that the left feels

846
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 3: about climate change. That it feels like this existential sort

847
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 3: of threat. I'm curious like.

848
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 2: Where that comes from.

849
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 3: And is that the sort of thing that resonates with

850
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 3: sort of young men and young voters.

851
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 1: This fear that there aren't going to be enough kids.

852
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 3: Basically, Yes, this sort of you know, the whole replacement

853
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 3: theory and the idea that yes, we need more children,

854
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 3: we need white children essentially, and that come from this nuclear.

855
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: Household heterosexual structure.

856
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, why is there this subsession with fertility and do

857
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 3: you think it's working? Do you think it's reaching voters?

858
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 4: Oh, I definitely don't think it's reaching moteries. I don't

859
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 4: think these have been politically well sold arguments. Yeah. So

860
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 4: on the right there has emerged a sort of overarching

861
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 4: macro fear, which is it America specifically, but the globe

862
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 4: generally is entering into a kind of extended multi generational

863
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 4: demographic collapse, and that the thin edge of the wedge

864
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 4: or the tip of the spear is a place like

865
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 4: South Korea. The total fertility replacement rate for a society, right,

866
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 4: the number of kids that family should be having in

867
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 4: order to maintain the society's population, is called two point

868
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 4: one two point two South Korea is a point nine, right,

869
00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 4: so South Korea is entering into geometric shrinkage that actually

870
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 4: is civilizationally threatening to South Korea. It is not clear

871
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 4: what happens after you turn over a couple generations like that,

872
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 4: when you have a society build forever, many people are

873
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 4: there now it's a big country, and then you have

874
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 4: a small fraction of that. America, I'm so worried about

875
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:18,919
Speaker 4: getting the numbers wrong. I want to say it's one

876
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 4: point seven. It might be one point three. I think

877
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 4: it's one point seven. But the thing is it's happening everywhere.

878
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 3: Right.

879
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 4: So Italy, highly Catholic country. I believe their demographical placement

880
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 4: is something like one point three if you look at

881
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 4: the Nordic countries, right, which when we talk about what

882
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 4: are pro fertility policies on the left, we often talk

883
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 4: about what they do very very excellent paid family leave,

884
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 4: including for men, excellent childcare. They're at like one point one.

885
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 4: There are very few societies, really almost none around the

886
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 4: globe that are not seeing a very sharp decline in fertility.

887
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 4: And this reflects women having much better opportunities in the world. Right,

888
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,439
Speaker 4: So you know the sort of opportunity cost of having

889
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 4: children goes up. It reflects birth control right being affective

890
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 4: so people can plan out their fertility, and so the

891
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 4: right has become kind of obsessed with this right, and

892
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 4: it's not a totally crazy thing to worry about that

893
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 4: if you just kind of imagine this rolling forward, what's

894
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 4: going to happen when humanity just begins shrinking sort of

895
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 4: year on year and year on year without sort of

896
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 4: an obvious way to stabilize it. And the fact that

897
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 4: no country, not Japan, not South Korea, none of these countries,

898
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 4: but there's been a lot of worry about this, has

899
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 4: been able to turn these numbers around also makes them nervous.

900
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 4: So what some of these people like Jadvans have come

901
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 4: up with is, if you sort of look in these

902
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 4: more post liberal Catholic right circles that he's part of,

903
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 4: is at least, among other things like scolding people right,

904
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 4: yelling at you and trying to make it socially and

905
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 4: culturally unacceptable, shameful, embarrassing to not be having children like

906
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 4: that's what this thing about miserable childish cat ladies are right.

907
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,839
Speaker 4: The idea is that elites in power need to stop

908
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 4: talking about how everybody should live like whatever life they

909
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 4: find fulfilling, and begin saying that if you are not,

910
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 4: you know, coupled up and having children, you're a sort

911
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 4: of pathetic, selfish.

912
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's focus on the individual, right, and what the

913
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: individual wants.

914
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 4: We're seeing so I would say this is it reflects

915
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 4: a real thing that I think it is worth thinking about.

916
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 4: I do think that you should ask hard questions about

917
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 4: societies that have devalued having children in the way that

918
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 4: I think a lot have, or cultures that have devalued

919
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 4: having children that don't support them that I mean, what

920
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 4: does it mean if you don't have a belief that

921
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 4: it is worth sort of you know, extending the chain

922
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 4: of humanity out into the future. And on the other hand,

923
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 4: to talk about it the way they're talking about it,

924
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 4: to think about it the way they're thinking about it

925
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 4: is it's often cruel, it's ineffective. I don't think it

926
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 4: is thoughtful. Right. They're not working with like the actual

927
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,240
Speaker 4: questions they should be working with, right, which is okay.

928
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 4: If a lot of people are looking at what it

929
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 4: means to have a family in the modern era and

930
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 4: saying I don't want that, or I wanted it but

931
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 4: can't have it right. Many people, many families, have fewer

932
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 4: children than they would like to have. Then what right

933
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 4: do like? There are a lot of things you could

934
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 4: begin to imagine doing, some of them technological, and some

935
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 4: of them you know, financial, right, and some of them societal.

936
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,959
Speaker 1: Well, a lot of my daughter's friends say they don't

937
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 1: want to have or a number of them have said

938
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: they don't want to bring a child into the world

939
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: because they're afraid the world they're bringing the child into.

940
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 4: I hear that. I'm always really skeptical of that one,

941
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 4: to be honest, when you think about what the world

942
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 4: was like like any time in human history before nineteen

943
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 4: fifty functionally, and I mean nineteen fifty in rich countries, right,

944
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 4: for most of human history, half of all children died

945
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 4: right before their fifteenth birthday, and we brought children into

946
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 4: the world. There's something to me of all the arguments here,

947
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 4: the liberal argument that climate change or something else has

948
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,760
Speaker 4: made the world like too terrible to bring kids into.

949
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 4: And then I think about, I mean, you know, my ancestors,

950
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 4: like having my great grandparents as they were fleeing from pogrims.

951
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 4: Something about that always rought like too much comfort of

952
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 4: modernity has affected our thinking.

953
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 2: I mean, for me, it's a financial right.

954
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 3: Like I think sort of what what you're getting to

955
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 3: is a lot of policy would actually encourage people to

956
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 3: have children and make it, you know, easier. And those

957
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 3: aren't the things that JD. Evans is you know, necessarily supporting.

958
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 3: Like he's not saying, let's get men parental even let's

959
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 3: make sure that there's universal childcare, or that people can

960
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 3: afford their groceries and the rent and housing right, like

961
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 3: all of those things are also connected. I think a

962
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 3: lot of young people aren't having kids because they can't,

963
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 3: not because they don't want to.

964
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 4: This gets to a real schism in the MAGA movement

965
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 4: I think, which is interesting and we're thinking about, which

966
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 4: is that there's sort of two big streams in what

967
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 4: people kind of call Maga or the new Right, And

968
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 4: like one side of it is this weird, postliberal, heavily

969
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 4: Catholic influenced conservatism that Jade Evans is part of right,

970
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 4: and it's very concerned about things like fertility collapse. It

971
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 4: is very concerned about things like abortion. It thinks, you know,

972
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 4: we don't have enough virtue anymore, and men can't be

973
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 4: men and blah blah blah blah. And then there's this

974
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 4: other one, which you know sometimes it is called barstool

975
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 4: sports conservatism after the Dave Portnoy site, which is this

976
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:13,240
Speaker 4: more liberty libertarian like dudes playing video games and drinking

977
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 4: beer and just like want to be left alone and

978
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 4: they don't like the censorious smoke liberals. And sort of

979
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 4: during the pandemic and during the sort of post George

980
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 4: Floyd moment and the me too moment, these groups kind

981
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 4: of came together. But they're actually not not only not,

982
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 4: they're not the same. They're not anything like each other, right,

983
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,919
Speaker 4: They're deeply opposed to each other, right, I mean, Dave

984
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 4: Portnoy and that crew do not want abortion banned because

985
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 4: it might mean they have to take care of children

986
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 4: they don't want to take care of. And you know

987
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 4: this of skepticism of birth control, right that you see

988
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 4: on the sort of the other side of the right,

989
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 4: the sort of you know, more reactionary, right, they.

990
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 2: Want to ban porn, I mean, the reaction they want

991
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: to ban porn.

992
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 4: On the first page of Project twenty twenty five, it

993
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 4: calls for banning porn. Like that is not where Donald

994
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 4: Trump is. Donald Trump wants to ban being convicted for

995
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 4: hiding the fact that you slept with a porn star

996
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 4: during a campaign. Right, Like, so there's this weird jd

997
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,919
Speaker 4: Vance Donald Trump like difference here that like Trump chose

998
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,720
Speaker 4: Vance in some ways this air to maga. But Vance

999
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 4: is a very different thing than Trump is.

1000
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,919
Speaker 1: Well, let me end by asking you this question, and Liz,

1001
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: I'd love you to chime in. Is jd Vance hurting

1002
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 1: Donald Trump or helping him?

1003
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 4: He's definitely hurt him. In my view, it would have

1004
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 4: been if Trump had chosen Doug Burgram a Marco Rubio,

1005
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 4: he would be in significantly a better shape today. One

1006
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 4: he would have been more comforting to people in terms

1007
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 4: of you know, there's always this question people like, ah,

1008
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 4: like which Donald? Who is Donald Trump?

1009
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 1: Really?

1010
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 4: Is he the guy you know that you saw on

1011
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 4: January sixth, or I actually remember the economy being pretty

1012
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 4: good in twenty nineteen and a guy like Doug Burghram,

1013
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 4: a sort of boring business executive, would have been a

1014
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,839
Speaker 4: signal that it's going in that other direction. Right. Whether

1015
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:53,720
Speaker 4: that single would have been true, we could argue about.

1016
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 4: I sort of would suggest it wouldn't have been true,

1017
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 4: but it would have been comforting to people who maybe

1018
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 4: needed to be comfort and steady. Gets Vance, which accentuates

1019
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 4: the ideological extremity, the weirdness of the people, not just

1020
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 4: not just Trump himself, but the whole Trump coalition that

1021
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 4: you're bringing back into power. Right, That's why things like

1022
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 4: Project twenty twenty five matter. Trump can disavow that all

1023
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 4: that he wants. The thing is, it's all the people

1024
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:19,879
Speaker 4: who work for him and worked for him and will

1025
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 4: work for him again. And JD. Vance is there writing

1026
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 4: the forward to the book that Kevin Roberts, you know,

1027
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 4: his forthcoming book, Kevin Roberts being the head of the

1028
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 4: Heritage fination that you know oversaw Project twenty twenty five.

1029
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 4: So in choosing Vance, Trump ended up drawing attention to,

1030
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,879
Speaker 4: like the part of his movement that is most unpopular

1031
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 4: and off putting and unnerving. When his best argument was

1032
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 4: weirdly given who he is, a kind of stability argument.

1033
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 4: But he didn't pick somebody who accentuated stability. He picked

1034
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 4: somebody who accentuated kind of instability and uncertainty and weirdness.

1035
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 4: And yeah, I don't think Vance has helped this ticket

1036
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 4: at all.

1037
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 2: I totally agree.

1038
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 3: I mean and Let's remember, you know, he pays Jady

1039
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 3: Vance when Joe Biden was the candidate. You know, it

1040
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 3: was a very different race and it was sort of

1041
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 3: a shoe in and so yeah, Jade Vance doesn't reach

1042
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 3: people that Trump isn't reaching. And to as his point,

1043
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,320
Speaker 3: I think it's hurting him with groups that would otherwise

1044
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 3: maybe would have voted for Trump. I mean, when Jennifer

1045
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 3: Aniston posted about Jade Vance, a person who obviously has

1046
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 3: a lot of influence but isn't necessarily on your bingo

1047
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 3: card of you know, who will take a stand or

1048
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 3: endorse anyone during an election, That's when I knew, like, oh,

1049
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,479
Speaker 3: like he's in trouble, and yeah, he's just He's also

1050
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 3: like Trump is charismatic at least, you know, and funny

1051
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 3: and entertaining, and Jade Vance is just, you know, it

1052
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 3: doesn't even have that. So I don't think Trump is

1053
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 3: thrilled about that decision. That would be my guess.

1054
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 1: Ezra. I know you have a lot to do. You're

1055
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 1: a very busy man. Thank you for taking the time

1056
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: to be with Liz and me today. We really appreciate it.

1057
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:53,919
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. It was great to see

1058
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 4: you both.

1059
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 1: Liz, that was so fun. So smart, isn't he.

1060
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 3: He's so interesting as always, you know, it's always going

1061
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 3: to be smart, but it's also he has surprising takes

1062
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 3: on everything. You know, you think you will have understood

1063
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 3: an issue, and then he'll come at it from a

1064
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 3: different perspective.

1065
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,439
Speaker 2: And yeah, that was so that was so fun.

1066
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 1: I really found the gender conversation interesting, Liz, And I

1067
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 1: know you've been focusing on that axioside A piece just

1068
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 1: over the weekend, talking about women turning left, men turning right,

1069
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: women going to church less, men becoming more religious than women,

1070
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: seeing it sort of in every aspect of American life.

1071
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,359
Speaker 1: I find that's so interesting and so troubling. And I

1072
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: think you made a great point that we've just kind

1073
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: of ignored these young men and there is an inevitable

1074
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: backlash to these big social movements that we've seen over

1075
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: the last five years.

1076
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I, by the way, feel totally part of.

1077
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 3: The originating problem of this, right because I before iended

1078
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 3: up writing a book about masculine in twenty nineteen, I'd

1079
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 3: never thought that these issues were connected, right, that the

1080
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 3: men's problems could somehow be connected to women's problems. I

1081
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 3: did have that sort of zero sum mentality that we

1082
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,839
Speaker 3: needed to focus on women in order to uplift them

1083
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 3: and have gender equality.

1084
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 2: But I think the more we can.

1085
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 3: Connect those issues and realize, I mean, we all have

1086
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 3: to live together, right, But the more we're able to

1087
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 3: sort of work on those issues together and build more coalition.

1088
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 3: And yeah, I think online is not where it's necessarily

1089
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 3: I was.

1090
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,359
Speaker 1: Going to say, it's only exacerbating that with these bubbles.

1091
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: And then some of the people that Ezra was talking

1092
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: about that these young men follow and almost worship and

1093
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: are really being shaped by are not necessarily the best messengers.

1094
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: And one of the other interesting points list that I

1095
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: thought as we're made among many was that they should

1096
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: be using Tim Walls moreh That is just the kind

1097
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: of person who would appeal to disaffected young men. He

1098
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 1: obviously had extraordinary success as a high school coach and teacher.

1099
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: You know, when you saw all those football players at

1100
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 1: the DNC, you know, coming on stage, he elicits this

1101
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: profound affection and respect. I agree with him. Where are you,

1102
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: Tim Waaltz get on this damn podcast exactly? Well, although

1103
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,439
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I'm the right podcast, but selfishly I'd

1104
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: like to talk to him, but he should be going

1105
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 1: on all these shows. I think I do believe he's

1106
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 1: being underutilized. And I wonder if the slip he made

1107
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: when he talked about his war record that they're afraid

1108
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 1: that he's going And I think this caution might be

1109
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: moren out of a fear of making a mistake or

1110
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:45,959
Speaker 1: saying something that could be manipulated by the far right.

1111
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: But I just I think they're missing a great opportunity here.

1112
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:51,800
Speaker 3: And it's funny because you're so right that the campaign

1113
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 3: is very is being very careful on the one hand,

1114
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 3: but on the sort of like outwardly, they're taking all

1115
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 3: these risks right TikTok and on social media they're you know,

1116
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 3: using the coconut that's.

1117
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 1: Also within their control. That you know, that's within their control.

1118
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,240
Speaker 1: They have to give up a certain amount of control

1119
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: when she's faced by a prepared questioner who's going to

1120
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 1: ask her really specific questions about policy, about her record,

1121
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: and about her future agenda. So you know, yes, I

1122
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 1: think they've been great online, but that's so different, and

1123
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: you know, as a journalist, of course, I err on

1124
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 1: the side of wanting her to be challenged and I've

1125
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: always found that a lot of these politicians, they rise

1126
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 1: to the occasion when they're asked very challenging questions. That's

1127
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: when they do the best. If there ask these open

1128
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: ended questions, I think that that is when they sometimes stumble.

1129
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 1: But anyway, that's my argument. Kamala, you come on this

1130
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: podcast too. Anyway, Liz, thank you so much for being

1131
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 1: my partner in crime here. It's always great to be

1132
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: with you. And again, I love your newsletter called Airplane Mode,

1133
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: and everybody should check it out subscribe to it because,

1134
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: as Liz often tells us in the middle of our newsletter,

1135
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 1: it's really important to support grassroots journalism and she works

1136
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: really hard to bring interesting information and insights to all

1137
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: of us. So thank you Liz for that.

1138
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 3: Thank you Katie, You're my hero. This is so iconic

1139
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 3: to be on with you, and this is so fun.

1140
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 3: I hope we get to do it again soon.

1141
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,

1142
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

1143
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

1144
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 1: reach out. You can leave a short message at six

1145
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 1: h nine five one two five five five, or you

1146
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:55,919
Speaker 1: can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love

1147
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 1: to hear from you. Next Question is a production of

1148
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers are Me,

1149
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 1: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

1150
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

1151
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 1: Weller composed art theme music. For more information about today's episode,

1152
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:21,439
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call,

1153
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

1154
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

1155
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

1156
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1157
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows,