WEBVTT - The Government Has to Accept Bitcoin Before It’s Too Late... | Samson Mow 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.520 Now money is energy and information. Because bitcoin is money, 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:07.000 I think sixty percent annual growth is conservative. Countries with 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.840 abundant excess energy, they could be very wealthy countries. You 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:14.440 raise capital, you allocate a portion to buy bitcoin, which 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.600 will pay back the principle, and then you invest into 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:21.000 a revenue generating activity like mining bitcoin or building new 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.279 energy in front also mind bitcoin which will pay the 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:23.919 cupunt off. 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:26.880 What do you think about bitcoin treasury companies? 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:29.760 Hard to say? 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:33.280 All right, Samson Mark, We had a lot of topics 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:35.120 to talk about, so thanks for taking the time to 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:35.920 come talk to me. 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:36.960 Thanks for having me on. 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.239 We're here in DC at Bitcoin and Policy. Bitcoin policy 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:42.279 put up by Georgetown University. So I want to talk 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.040 about politics and regulations, and I want to talk about 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:50.159 the keynote Sailor had yesterday talking about tokens, which is 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.200 typically nottset that we hear in the bitcoin space. Something 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:55.640 you've worked on for a really long time, Nation state adoption, 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.400 and what's going on in El Salvador. I want to 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:02.760 get into the the bitcoin protocol. I want to get 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.320 into the NOTS versus core debate. So there's always something 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.200 going on in bitcoin. Oh man, it keeps its exciting, 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:10.800 you have to find something. So here we are, we're 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.120 in DC, both of our first time year. I guess, 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:18.680 first of all, how do you think about how are 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.520 you Canadian? Yes, okay, I find this sometimes maybe Canadians 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:24.400 and Americans look at this a little differently because of 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:26.360 you know, the country euro Upon. But how would you 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:30.400 look at the way you think that bitcoiners should be 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:35.120 working with governments or not working with governments or asking 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:35.839 the governments. 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.039 Well, that's an interesting topic because a lot of bitcoiners 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:43.039 are often criticizing what we're doing because we engage with governments. 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:45.919 That's top down. We have two strategies top down bottom 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:50.640 bottom up is aqua getting the unbanked into a financial system, 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.480 and then top down we engage with governments, politicians, regulators. 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:57.560 We've been meet with central banks. But the question is like, 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.520 why do you want the governments to have Bitcoin? And 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.080 I think it really comes down to what kind of 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:05.720 world do we want to live in. There's a number 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:10.840 of dimensions to this. One is in countries with abundant 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:14.320 eccess energy, they could be very wealthy countries, and Bhutan 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.120 is a great example of that. They're just converting excess 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:22.080 hydro into money. They are using that money to build 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.440 a new airport, but it shows the promise of that 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:29.040 and for any energy rich country, that is your path 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:32.320 to prosperity. Much like in the UAE, you don't pay 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.440 taxes if you're in an AMORTI the government gives you money, 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:38.440 and that could be the case for like Canada for example. 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:43.120 But moreover, most governments need money. It's like a big 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:46.240 machine that consumes money. Like today the government in the 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:50.440 US is shut down, right, yeah you would notice it, 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:52.520 but yeah, yeah, you would notice it. But bitcoin prices up, 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:57.920 but maybe that's uncorrelated. But governments need money, and when 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.000 they need money and there there is no money, that's 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:06.120 when they look to different ways of getting it, like 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:13.720 wealth taxes, taxing, unrealized capital, gains, seizure of money for 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:18.160 whatever reason from the citizens, or various other creative ways 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.480 to take money from people. So I think if you 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.720 can get a government to adopt bitcoin, and if they 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:27.000 have energy even better they can mine bitcoin, then you 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:31.280 kind of wean them off the wheel of taking money 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.400 from people for lack of a more eloquent way. 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:34.720 To put it. 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.280 So that's one thing. The other thing is, obviously we 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:45.280 want to be protected as bitcoiners. We don't want our 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:47.720 bitcoin taken from us. We don't want to be blamed. 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.320 And if you look back in history, there are many 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:54.800 examples of you know, groups or ethnicities that are blamed 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:59.960 for various problems, usually economic, right, many many examples in history, 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:02.800 and I can see like, if we are in a 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.160 fourth turning and things do get bad, who do you blame? 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:10.920 It is the bitcoiners because maybe we're okay, We're doing 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:15.320 okay because we have bitcoin. And the counter to that 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.760 is really getting more bitcoin adoption. And the government can 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.960 encourage a lot of bitcoin adoption. They can say bitcoin 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:24.520 is usable for payments because most people don't want to 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:27.320 go against the government. Right, So if you can get 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:31.160 the governments to embrace bitcoin as money, more people will 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:33.760 have bitcoin. So if you think of it, you don't 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.560 want a witch hunt. And how do you avoid or 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:41.120 avert a witch hunt? You make more witches, right, more bitcoiners. 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.320 Witches in the government, Yes, exactly. 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.040 And also I think if you get the government to 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.640 understand bitcoin, and there are a lot of Congress people 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:57.080 and you know, like people like RFK Junior that understand it, 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:01.640 it's kind of fixes itself. Bitcoin does change people's thinking 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:05.120 and the way they view the world. And I think 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.159 if you have enough of that, in a critical mass 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:10.560 of that, maybe it's possible to change government for the better. 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:12.840 I don't really see any other way of doing that 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:15.839 because the nature of government is to you know, take 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.119 and redistribute at the fundamental core. 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:18.440 Right. 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.440 Ideally, I don't know if you're for smaller government, but 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.680 ideally it's just administrative, you know, like, you know, make 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.440 sure the borders are safe and people can live safely. 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.280 But then it always scope creeps into more and more 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:35.200 and more things, more programs, more free things, and then 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:36.880 it kind of spiles out of control and you have 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:41.000 thirty seven eight trillion dollars a debt. So I think 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.240 this is kind of the reason why you do want 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.280 governments to embrace bitcoin. Is not that we want to 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.039 give the government lots of bitcoin, but we want them 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:53.919 to understand it, use it, have ways to get bitcoin 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:57.280 that is not taking it from people, and learn about 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:59.360 bitcoin and learn the ethos of bitcoin. 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:03.240 Yeah, yeah, I love that. Sailor his keynote yesterday, he 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.240 said that he thinks everything really changed twelve months ago, 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.680 and that's what's the new administration that came in. Yes, 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:11.720 we can see how the previous administration, I mean what 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.440 an all universe were into if Kamal had one and 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:16.760 the kind of extended what the Biden regime had been 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:18.840 doing where that would have gone. But you know what 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.120 Sailor's talking about is you sort of had basically everyone 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:24.080 in the government was very hostile so bitcoin at crypto Yes, 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:28.719 And as Frank I did that fireside job Frank Day 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:30.560 on stage and he said, you know something I say 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.440 quite often was the government's not a monolist. It's a 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.520 bunch of people in the government. But under the Bid administration, 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:40.599 very few lead in bitcoin er weren't invested in bitcoin. 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.200 In today Trump administration, from Trump himself all the way 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:47.120 down with the cabinet, they're all bitcoiners. Yeah, so I 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:49.800 think that's a pretty big thing. What do you think 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:53.720 about though, like with the laws right, so, like I 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.239 think more of a constitutionalist, where like the law should 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.640 be preventing the government from infringing back to having a 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.799 small government. Yes, I think like in the in America 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.159 with a Second Amendment, So it's not that there's no 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:08.440 policy of guns. The policy is don't infringe on my 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.120 right to have guns. Yes, sorry, So like I think 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.400 of like I see some of the states, we've had 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.480 six states put through rules that say a right to 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.680 self custody, a right to mining, right to open networks. 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:24.360 But then at the same time, with new technology, if 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:26.760 we look back, like the telecom or on the internet days, 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.440 there were rules put into place that protect the industry 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.240 to allow it to grow. Yeah, and so a lot 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:34.560 of rules that they put in place could act hurt 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:35.040 it as well. 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:36.240 So how do you navigate that? 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.600 I think it has to do with the evolution of technology, right, 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.920 Like when the Constitution was written and the amendunce were passed, 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:50.400 you didn't have central bank send government money predominant in 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:50.840 the world. 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:52.800 But Jefferson was warning us about that. 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:57.360 Yes, but you know when money is centralized and largely 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:01.440 digital and very controllable, then a lot of those rights 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:06.000 are no longer guaranteed because if you have no ability 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:08.120 to have your own money, like let's say the right 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:12.240 to bear money, then can you have free speech? Right? 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:15.520 Can you actually you know, pay for your internet bill 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:19.920 to post something? Can you bear arms if you cannot 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.880 buy arms or if they have a social credit score 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:25.680 and they go, yeah, you can't have this now, right, 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:26.520 so that you. 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.120 Can't pay to drive to the assembly, right, Yeah, it 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:30.200 all hngdes on pains. 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.360 Yeah, but it was kind of assumed that money would 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:37.079 be bearer until suddenly it wasn't. And I think bitcoin 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.960 fixes a lot of this. And I think perhaps it 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:44.040 was Trump's experience, you know, being attacked by the other 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.720 side that made him understand maybe a bearer asset is good. 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:52.160 And you do see him piling into bitcoin, unfortunately a 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:54.320 bit too much in the crypto side, but you know, 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:57.840 nobody's perfect, but definitely it's on the right track that 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:01.640 he is for bearer instruments, and I think this is 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.600 kind of the way to fix that. But it's kind 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.560 of sad that you have to pass laws for the 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.160 right to having self custody or other things like that 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.280 when it should be a given that you should be 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:16.080 able to have money as a sovereign individual. 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.400 Yeah. What do you think about some of these dragnet 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:23.960 surveillance orders in today's day and age you had mentioned earlier, like, 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.240 for example, I go through the border, they opened my phone. 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:28.080 Now they can see my account pass orders, or they 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:29.880 could see my private keys and things like that. 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.600 Yeah, Well, I don't think there are enough protections right 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.400 now in this day and age, and at a global level, 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:41.720 especially where it's the world is ready for money being information. 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:43.760 So you missed my keynote after Sailor, but I was 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.800 talking largely about the equation being changed now money is 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:52.319 energy and information because bitcoin is money, and this changes 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:56.040 so many different things because money has never really been 0:09:56.240 --> 0:10:01.240 information before and money has never been energy before. Right 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:05.480 Kenry Ford theorized in nineteen twenty one, he said, let's 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.520 have an energy currency, But it wasn't until the dawn 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:11.640 of bitcoin that we actually had in energy money. But 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.760 that means you need energy because energy is money. Like 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:17.160 I gave the example before, if you have energy as 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:19.720 a country, then guess what, You're a rich country and 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:20.280 you have money. 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:21.760 Yeah. 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:24.400 But with bitcoin it changes it because it's not just 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:27.440 oil in the ground or whatever. You could have nuclear 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.839 reactors and have money too. But the information part is 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:35.120 different because money as information means you can teleport money 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:39.520 anywhere around the world. Capital controls no longer exist, and 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:42.480 I believe right now we're seeing countries kind of grappling 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:46.280 with that new reality. In Korea, they're trying to push 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.480 for a Korean Wan stable coin. Is that going to 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.160 be only transactable in Korea and subject to the same 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.160 limits or is it free flowing. If it's free flowing, 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.880 then you don't have capital controls anymore. And I think 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.160 this is kind of where the battle is, Like the 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:04.760 internal conflict is do we have free money or do 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:09.600 we want control money and controlled economies? And you know, 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:13.440 to that extent, you need more protections too, Like I 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.440 was saying, like when you cross the border, if someone 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.040 could take your phone and take your information or look 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.560 at your information, they can take your money. And how 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.560 do you prevent that because you know someone looked at it, 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:27.240 how do you prove that they stole it? Like ideally, 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:29.160 you know, as a bitcoinner, you know if someone ever 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:32.280 looked at your seed, treat it like it's gone, or 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:35.360 if your device is compromised, then you know, move your 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:39.640 funds immediately. But as we get more and more bitcoint adoption, 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.800 you know that learning curve is applied to billions of 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.120 people around the world, and I think you need some protections. 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:51.120 And the protections really come down to more sovereignty, like 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:55.760 making sure people are independent, reducing the surveillance state, right, 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:59.640 like what happens if a camera somewhere catches you with 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.520 your seat phrase and the guy with the camera, can 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:06.320 you know, steal your funds. There's always that possibility. But 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.959 the world we're going in is tilting more towards the 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.360 surveillance side rather than to more freedoms. So this is 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.040 an interesting point in time where we go. But definitely 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:19.280 government seem to be cognizant of all these changes and 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.080 you know, protect the people, at least you hope they will. 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:25.719 We talked a lot about the name name drop to 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.280 talk a lot about the American politics. What about Canadian politics? 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:32.400 I mean, our prime minister is a former central banker 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:37.439 and heavily tied to the world that comic forum and 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:41.240 all those organizations. But we'll see. We have peer Polyev, 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:43.720 which I've met before, who I've met him before, and 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:49.559 he understands bitcoin. He has bitcoin like yeah, but unfortunately 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:51.280 he didn't win the last election. 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:56.319 Yeah, So I did miss your keynote. I wanted to 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:57.920 see because I want to be more prepared for this. 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.640 I love the framing note. Bitcoin is information and so 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:04.760 a lot of times we try to compare their technology 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:06.560 to things that we understand so we can make sense 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:08.360 of them and they are like those things, but they're 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.719 also more that's kind of what you're framing. So I'm 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.679 gonna go back and watch it. For everyone listening, I'm 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:14.640 gonna put it in the show notes down below, so 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:18.720 you go watch that keynote as well. Unfortunately I missed 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:20.199 it because I was coming up periated ready to have 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:22.320 Sailor come up here. But I did watch his keynote, 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:24.560 So let's talk about that for a minute. A lot 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:28.000 of buzz going on here in DC about about the keynote. 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:30.960 A lot of things that I thought were really good. 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:33.760 One thing that seems to be creating a lot of 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:37.760 buzz in the bitcoin community specifically, was he spent quite 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.760 a bit of time talking about, I guess, tokenization of 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.320 real world assets. Every day we see headlines about inflation 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:48.360 and dead and diminishing control over our own money. That's 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.520 why I always come back to bitcoin, because it's built 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.000 for generations, it's built for legacy. But protecting your bitcoin 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:58.320 legacy the right way is not always simple. It demands discipline, focus, 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:02.360 and the right partner. 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I've been using and recommending unchained 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.800 for years. I even got my parents to set up 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:44.800 with them. So if you want to get set up, 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:49.240 check out unchained signature at unchained dot com, slash mark 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.120 Moss and as a loyal listener, I got a discount 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.240 for you. Just use code Moss ten at checkout to 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.200 get ten percent off your first year. Because your bitcoin 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.520 isn't just for life, it's for generations. 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.240 Well, I think there is a place for it, and 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.320 the world definitely is changing to embrace you know, real 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:11.960 world assets tokenization more so. But at the same time 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:15.000 the trad file world is evolving too, so I think 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.080 soon you'll have twenty four to seven trading of equities, 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:20.600 and then the question really is what is the benefit 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:24.840 of tokenization, And I see a really interesting path from 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:28.320 there because it's always a competition. Right if the origin 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:32.040 of you know, stocks were bearer, you have a piece 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.000 of paper and that's your stock and the company. I 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:38.640 think real world assets could be very interesting if they're 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:42.040 tokenized in a way that they can be bearer, because 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:45.800 then you can have distributed ownership. But the question again 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.720 is does the system as a whole want that. 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:50.960 Well, it made it illegal, so I would guess. 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:55.600 Well, yeah, so well with the see but going to 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:57.480 that kind of a world is very interesting, not just 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.480 twenty four to seven trading because I think the old 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.920 system will evolve in that way, but having a real benefit, 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.920 which is something is bearer and being able to be 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:08.680 okay with that. But like you said, it's not something 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:13.440 that the system wants. But what Sailor's point was more 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:18.000 so like, I think it's okay now to tokenize things, 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:21.440 And the critiques on his talk were more about why 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:23.800 are you talking about all these other crypto projects and 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.680 why you can tokenize on those crypto projects, right, And 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.120 also he mentioned Katie Perry a bunch of times, and 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:32.920 it was funny because people were messaging me and saying 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.360 what was that about, Like what was he going on about? 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:38.840 And I was backstage, so I didn't really hear what 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:39.480 he was saying. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.120 Well, he was saying that somebody like a Katy Perry, yeah, 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:47.040 could create tokens for fine clubs. Yes, he said that 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:51.160 a country club could tokenize new memberships, and so you 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:57.600 could have influential people musicians, movie stars, athletes, country clubs 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.600 taking assets that maybe couldn't create a goal before and 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:01.120 now they could. 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.240 Yeah. I listened to the talk after, so I did. 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:06.040 I caught most of it. But the problem he was 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:10.240 saying it didn't work before because I guess he was 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.320 implying the administration was kind of hostile to that, which 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.439 we talked about too, right, like the Biden administration. But 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:21.760 he said, if you have like regulatory frameworks and there's 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.359 safety for people, then you kind of removed the fun 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.440 part of it, which then anyone can just go live 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:30.600 and launch a token, right and if you have the protections, 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.480 then you're going into the realm of it being regulated 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:39.280 by something like the SEC. Maybe it's like the fun 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:43.240 token securities commission, fun token commission or something like that. Right, 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.320 But then you do that and you had you add 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:48.840 some friction back, right, And there's no way, I think, 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:52.639 for any organization to do that. Like Sailor also said, 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.080 forty million businesses need access to the market. 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:59.400 Right, Let's let's stick on the fan club stuff right there? Sure, 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:03.479 ygam because I think what he was saying, and I 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:06.119 believe Truck put forward this year in one of his 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:10.080 executive orders. But the Digital Token Act is to allow 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.320 these thinks to happen without being considered a security and 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:18.400 without the sec oversight, so they're not really a security. 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:21.840 And so like I can already charge people to join 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.240 my membership, why couldn't I just tokenize that without it 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:27.560 being in security? And I think that's what he was saying. 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:31.520 He there's mine country club membership that happens to be tokenized. 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.640 Isn't really a security. I don't craze any value whether 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.679 I paid to join your Katie Prairie Bank club and 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:39.960 I get a token or I don't get a token. 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:41.800 I don't know if that creates any more value for you. 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.480 There is some value, I would say, So there is 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.280 value in tokenization if it is a bare asset, right, 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:51.520 Maybe equities no, but definitely a membership token is and 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:53.840 is it really bare? Is it transferable? Can you give 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:57.439 your Katie Perry fan club membership to me? Right? And 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:00.640 this is something that most entities don't want. They don't 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.119 want that fluidity and liquidity. They want to lock you in. 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:05.959 So if someone did want to do that and it's 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.399 fully transferable, then and they honor that transfer, then that 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.080 is better than the old system where you cannot have 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:18.080 that liquidity or transferability. So maybe he's right in that sense. 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:23.200 But then usually when things are tokenized or you know, tradeable, 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.040 someone wants to regulate that too. But if you can 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.240 avoid that and it is free flowing, then yes, you 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:32.040 can have your fun and tokenize anything. There is a danger, 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.400 of course of people scamming, but that's always been a danger, yeah, right, 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:39.080 and you have laws that's rod, yes, But you open 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:41.320 up a bigger can of worms because now anyone can 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:43.640 make any fan club and how do you know that 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:45.240 that's the real Katy Perry Frank club? 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:48.639 Right? Right? Okay, so then you should And then you 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:50.960 also mentioned that the forty million businesses that can't raise 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:53.119 capital because of costs millions of dollars to take two 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:54.840 years to go public. Yeah. 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:56.800 Well, if you think about it, why do we have 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.840 all the regulations in anscoie public because there were bad 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.639 actors before and we had to protect the people. So 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.480 it really comes down to it, can you regulate forty 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:09.600 million businesses all going public? And how exactly mechanically would 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:11.040 you do that? Do you just step out of the 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.960 way and say it's like a fang clup token, it's 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:15.359 free for all. 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:19.520 Well, I think you would. So again, I think what 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.119 happens is here we are in DC and we have 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:26.360 all these legislators. Yes, and their job is to legislate. Yes, 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:29.520 we have lawmakers and their job is to make laws. 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.040 And so you mentioned earlier the scope creek. So what 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:35.520 happens is is probably good intentions. Yeah, let's have some 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.439 consumer protections. But then over years of continuing to make 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:42.520 lots of legislations, it's prey right. So like if if 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.120 in this digital token bill, if a company was able 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.399 to raise money, maybe it's up to a Serpa amount 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.000 five million, ten million, one hundred million go to bed numbers, 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:54.600 and I had to make disclosures and you had to 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.120 see captable din ourship. But I could just create top 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.159 and raise money really quickly and not go to the 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.479 whole sec in. I mean that could be beneficial. Now, 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:05.359 if I defraud you, I broke a law, there's a 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.679 law for that, right, So I think the laws that 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:10.959 we currently have now sort of could catch all of 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:14.919 that maybe. And then at the same time and then 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:17.560 it's like, do we believe in the nanty state? Yeah? 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:19.520 I mean this is the crucks at the issue, right. 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:22.879