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Speaker 1: Now money is energy and information. Because bitcoin is money,

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Speaker 1: I think sixty percent annual growth is conservative. Countries with

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Speaker 1: abundant excess energy, they could be very wealthy countries. You

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Speaker 1: raise capital, you allocate a portion to buy bitcoin, which

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Speaker 1: will pay back the principle, and then you invest into

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Speaker 1: a revenue generating activity like mining bitcoin or building new

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Speaker 1: energy in front also mind bitcoin which will pay the

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Speaker 1: cupunt off.

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Speaker 2: What do you think about bitcoin treasury companies?

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Speaker 1: Hard to say?

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Speaker 2: All right, Samson Mark, We had a lot of topics

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Speaker 2: to talk about, so thanks for taking the time to

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Speaker 2: come talk to me.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 2: We're here in DC at Bitcoin and Policy. Bitcoin policy

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Speaker 2: put up by Georgetown University. So I want to talk

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Speaker 2: about politics and regulations, and I want to talk about

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Speaker 2: the keynote Sailor had yesterday talking about tokens, which is

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Speaker 2: typically nottset that we hear in the bitcoin space. Something

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Speaker 2: you've worked on for a really long time, Nation state adoption,

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Speaker 2: and what's going on in El Salvador. I want to

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Speaker 2: get into the the bitcoin protocol. I want to get

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Speaker 2: into the NOTS versus core debate. So there's always something

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Speaker 2: going on in bitcoin. Oh man, it keeps its exciting,

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Speaker 2: you have to find something. So here we are, we're

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Speaker 2: in DC, both of our first time year. I guess,

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Speaker 2: first of all, how do you think about how are

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Speaker 2: you Canadian? Yes, okay, I find this sometimes maybe Canadians

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Speaker 2: and Americans look at this a little differently because of

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Speaker 2: you know, the country euro Upon. But how would you

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Speaker 2: look at the way you think that bitcoiners should be

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Speaker 2: working with governments or not working with governments or asking

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Speaker 2: the governments.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's an interesting topic because a lot of bitcoiners

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Speaker 1: are often criticizing what we're doing because we engage with governments.

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Speaker 1: That's top down. We have two strategies top down bottom

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Speaker 1: bottom up is aqua getting the unbanked into a financial system,

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Speaker 1: and then top down we engage with governments, politicians, regulators.

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Speaker 1: We've been meet with central banks. But the question is like,

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Speaker 1: why do you want the governments to have Bitcoin? And

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Speaker 1: I think it really comes down to what kind of

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Speaker 1: world do we want to live in. There's a number

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Speaker 1: of dimensions to this. One is in countries with abundant

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Speaker 1: eccess energy, they could be very wealthy countries, and Bhutan

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Speaker 1: is a great example of that. They're just converting excess

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Speaker 1: hydro into money. They are using that money to build

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Speaker 1: a new airport, but it shows the promise of that

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Speaker 1: and for any energy rich country, that is your path

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Speaker 1: to prosperity. Much like in the UAE, you don't pay

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Speaker 1: taxes if you're in an AMORTI the government gives you money,

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Speaker 1: and that could be the case for like Canada for example.

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Speaker 1: But moreover, most governments need money. It's like a big

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Speaker 1: machine that consumes money. Like today the government in the

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Speaker 1: US is shut down, right, yeah you would notice it,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, you would notice it. But bitcoin prices up,

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Speaker 1: but maybe that's uncorrelated. But governments need money, and when

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Speaker 1: they need money and there there is no money, that's

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Speaker 1: when they look to different ways of getting it, like

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Speaker 1: wealth taxes, taxing, unrealized capital, gains, seizure of money for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason from the citizens, or various other creative ways

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Speaker 1: to take money from people. So I think if you

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Speaker 1: can get a government to adopt bitcoin, and if they

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Speaker 1: have energy even better they can mine bitcoin, then you

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Speaker 1: kind of wean them off the wheel of taking money

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Speaker 1: from people for lack of a more eloquent way.

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Speaker 2: To put it.

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Speaker 1: So that's one thing. The other thing is, obviously we

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Speaker 1: want to be protected as bitcoiners. We don't want our

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Speaker 1: bitcoin taken from us. We don't want to be blamed.

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Speaker 1: And if you look back in history, there are many

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Speaker 1: examples of you know, groups or ethnicities that are blamed

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Speaker 1: for various problems, usually economic, right, many many examples in history,

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Speaker 1: and I can see like, if we are in a

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Speaker 1: fourth turning and things do get bad, who do you blame?

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Speaker 1: It is the bitcoiners because maybe we're okay, We're doing

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Speaker 1: okay because we have bitcoin. And the counter to that

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Speaker 1: is really getting more bitcoin adoption. And the government can

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Speaker 1: encourage a lot of bitcoin adoption. They can say bitcoin

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Speaker 1: is usable for payments because most people don't want to

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Speaker 1: go against the government. Right, So if you can get

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Speaker 1: the governments to embrace bitcoin as money, more people will

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Speaker 1: have bitcoin. So if you think of it, you don't

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Speaker 1: want a witch hunt. And how do you avoid or

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Speaker 1: avert a witch hunt? You make more witches, right, more bitcoiners.

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Speaker 2: Witches in the government, Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And also I think if you get the government to

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Speaker 1: understand bitcoin, and there are a lot of Congress people

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Speaker 1: and you know, like people like RFK Junior that understand it,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of fixes itself. Bitcoin does change people's thinking

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Speaker 1: and the way they view the world. And I think

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Speaker 1: if you have enough of that, in a critical mass

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Speaker 1: of that, maybe it's possible to change government for the better.

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Speaker 1: I don't really see any other way of doing that

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Speaker 1: because the nature of government is to you know, take

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Speaker 1: and redistribute at the fundamental core.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Ideally, I don't know if you're for smaller government, but

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Speaker 1: ideally it's just administrative, you know, like, you know, make

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Speaker 1: sure the borders are safe and people can live safely.

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Speaker 1: But then it always scope creeps into more and more

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Speaker 1: and more things, more programs, more free things, and then

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Speaker 1: it kind of spiles out of control and you have

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Speaker 1: thirty seven eight trillion dollars a debt. So I think

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Speaker 1: this is kind of the reason why you do want

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Speaker 1: governments to embrace bitcoin. Is not that we want to

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Speaker 1: give the government lots of bitcoin, but we want them

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Speaker 1: to understand it, use it, have ways to get bitcoin

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Speaker 1: that is not taking it from people, and learn about

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Speaker 1: bitcoin and learn the ethos of bitcoin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I love that. Sailor his keynote yesterday, he

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Speaker 2: said that he thinks everything really changed twelve months ago,

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Speaker 2: and that's what's the new administration that came in. Yes,

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Speaker 2: we can see how the previous administration, I mean what

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Speaker 2: an all universe were into if Kamal had one and

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Speaker 2: the kind of extended what the Biden regime had been

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Speaker 2: doing where that would have gone. But you know what

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Speaker 2: Sailor's talking about is you sort of had basically everyone

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Speaker 2: in the government was very hostile so bitcoin at crypto Yes,

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Speaker 2: And as Frank I did that fireside job Frank Day

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Speaker 2: on stage and he said, you know something I say

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Speaker 2: quite often was the government's not a monolist. It's a

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Speaker 2: bunch of people in the government. But under the Bid administration,

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Speaker 2: very few lead in bitcoin er weren't invested in bitcoin.

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Speaker 2: In today Trump administration, from Trump himself all the way

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Speaker 2: down with the cabinet, they're all bitcoiners. Yeah, so I

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Speaker 2: think that's a pretty big thing. What do you think

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Speaker 2: about though, like with the laws right, so, like I

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Speaker 2: think more of a constitutionalist, where like the law should

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Speaker 2: be preventing the government from infringing back to having a

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Speaker 2: small government. Yes, I think like in the in America

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Speaker 2: with a Second Amendment, So it's not that there's no

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Speaker 2: policy of guns. The policy is don't infringe on my

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Speaker 2: right to have guns. Yes, sorry, So like I think

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Speaker 2: of like I see some of the states, we've had

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Speaker 2: six states put through rules that say a right to

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Speaker 2: self custody, a right to mining, right to open networks.

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Speaker 3: But then at the same time, with new technology, if

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Speaker 3: we look back, like the telecom or on the internet days,

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Speaker 3: there were rules put into place that protect the industry

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Speaker 3: to allow it to grow. Yeah, and so a lot

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Speaker 3: of rules that they put in place could act hurt

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Speaker 3: it as well.

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Speaker 2: So how do you navigate that?

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Speaker 1: I think it has to do with the evolution of technology, right,

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Speaker 1: Like when the Constitution was written and the amendunce were passed,

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Speaker 1: you didn't have central bank send government money predominant in

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Speaker 1: the world.

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Speaker 2: But Jefferson was warning us about that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but you know when money is centralized and largely

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Speaker 1: digital and very controllable, then a lot of those rights

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Speaker 1: are no longer guaranteed because if you have no ability

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Speaker 1: to have your own money, like let's say the right

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Speaker 1: to bear money, then can you have free speech? Right?

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Speaker 1: Can you actually you know, pay for your internet bill

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Speaker 1: to post something? Can you bear arms if you cannot

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Speaker 1: buy arms or if they have a social credit score

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Speaker 1: and they go, yeah, you can't have this now, right,

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Speaker 1: so that you.

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Speaker 2: Can't pay to drive to the assembly, right, Yeah, it

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Speaker 2: all hngdes on pains.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was kind of assumed that money would

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Speaker 1: be bearer until suddenly it wasn't. And I think bitcoin

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Speaker 1: fixes a lot of this. And I think perhaps it

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Speaker 1: was Trump's experience, you know, being attacked by the other

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Speaker 1: side that made him understand maybe a bearer asset is good.

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Speaker 1: And you do see him piling into bitcoin, unfortunately a

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Speaker 1: bit too much in the crypto side, but you know,

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Speaker 1: nobody's perfect, but definitely it's on the right track that

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Speaker 1: he is for bearer instruments, and I think this is

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Speaker 1: kind of the way to fix that. But it's kind

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Speaker 1: of sad that you have to pass laws for the

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Speaker 1: right to having self custody or other things like that

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Speaker 1: when it should be a given that you should be

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Speaker 1: able to have money as a sovereign individual.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. What do you think about some of these dragnet

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Speaker 2: surveillance orders in today's day and age you had mentioned earlier, like,

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Speaker 2: for example, I go through the border, they opened my phone.

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Speaker 2: Now they can see my account pass orders, or they

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Speaker 2: could see my private keys and things like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I don't think there are enough protections right

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Speaker 1: now in this day and age, and at a global level,

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Speaker 1: especially where it's the world is ready for money being information.

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Speaker 1: So you missed my keynote after Sailor, but I was

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Speaker 1: talking largely about the equation being changed now money is

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Speaker 1: energy and information because bitcoin is money, and this changes

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Speaker 1: so many different things because money has never really been

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Speaker 1: information before and money has never been energy before. Right

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Speaker 1: Kenry Ford theorized in nineteen twenty one, he said, let's

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Speaker 1: have an energy currency, But it wasn't until the dawn

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Speaker 1: of bitcoin that we actually had in energy money. But

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Speaker 1: that means you need energy because energy is money. Like

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Speaker 1: I gave the example before, if you have energy as

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Speaker 1: a country, then guess what, You're a rich country and

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Speaker 1: you have money.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But with bitcoin it changes it because it's not just

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Speaker 1: oil in the ground or whatever. You could have nuclear

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Speaker 1: reactors and have money too. But the information part is

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Speaker 1: different because money as information means you can teleport money

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Speaker 1: anywhere around the world. Capital controls no longer exist, and

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Speaker 1: I believe right now we're seeing countries kind of grappling

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Speaker 1: with that new reality. In Korea, they're trying to push

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Speaker 1: for a Korean Wan stable coin. Is that going to

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Speaker 1: be only transactable in Korea and subject to the same

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Speaker 1: limits or is it free flowing. If it's free flowing,

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Speaker 1: then you don't have capital controls anymore. And I think

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Speaker 1: this is kind of where the battle is, Like the

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Speaker 1: internal conflict is do we have free money or do

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Speaker 1: we want control money and controlled economies? And you know,

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Speaker 1: to that extent, you need more protections too, Like I

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Speaker 1: was saying, like when you cross the border, if someone

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Speaker 1: could take your phone and take your information or look

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Speaker 1: at your information, they can take your money. And how

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Speaker 1: do you prevent that because you know someone looked at it,

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Speaker 1: how do you prove that they stole it? Like ideally,

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Speaker 1: you know, as a bitcoinner, you know if someone ever

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Speaker 1: looked at your seed, treat it like it's gone, or

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Speaker 1: if your device is compromised, then you know, move your

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Speaker 1: funds immediately. But as we get more and more bitcoint adoption,

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Speaker 1: you know that learning curve is applied to billions of

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Speaker 1: people around the world, and I think you need some protections.

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Speaker 1: And the protections really come down to more sovereignty, like

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Speaker 1: making sure people are independent, reducing the surveillance state, right,

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Speaker 1: like what happens if a camera somewhere catches you with

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Speaker 1: your seat phrase and the guy with the camera, can

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Speaker 1: you know, steal your funds. There's always that possibility. But

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Speaker 1: the world we're going in is tilting more towards the

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Speaker 1: surveillance side rather than to more freedoms. So this is

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Speaker 1: an interesting point in time where we go. But definitely

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Speaker 1: government seem to be cognizant of all these changes and

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Speaker 1: you know, protect the people, at least you hope they will.

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Speaker 2: We talked a lot about the name name drop to

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Speaker 2: talk a lot about the American politics. What about Canadian politics?

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Speaker 1: I mean, our prime minister is a former central banker

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Speaker 1: and heavily tied to the world that comic forum and

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Speaker 1: all those organizations. But we'll see. We have peer Polyev,

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Speaker 1: which I've met before, who I've met him before, and

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Speaker 1: he understands bitcoin. He has bitcoin like yeah, but unfortunately

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Speaker 1: he didn't win the last election.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I did miss your keynote. I wanted to

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Speaker 2: see because I want to be more prepared for this.

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Speaker 2: I love the framing note. Bitcoin is information and so

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Speaker 2: a lot of times we try to compare their technology

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Speaker 2: to things that we understand so we can make sense

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Speaker 2: of them and they are like those things, but they're

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Speaker 2: also more that's kind of what you're framing. So I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna go back and watch it. For everyone listening, I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna put it in the show notes down below, so

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Speaker 2: you go watch that keynote as well. Unfortunately I missed

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Speaker 2: it because I was coming up periated ready to have

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Speaker 2: Sailor come up here. But I did watch his keynote,

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about that for a minute. A lot

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Speaker 2: of buzz going on here in DC about about the keynote.

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Speaker 2: A lot of things that I thought were really good.

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Speaker 2: One thing that seems to be creating a lot of

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Speaker 2: buzz in the bitcoin community specifically, was he spent quite

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Speaker 2: a bit of time talking about, I guess, tokenization of

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Speaker 2: real world assets. Every day we see headlines about inflation

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Speaker 2: and dead and diminishing control over our own money. That's

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Speaker 2: why I always come back to bitcoin, because it's built

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Speaker 2: for generations, it's built for legacy. But protecting your bitcoin

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Speaker 2: legacy the right way is not always simple. It demands discipline, focus,

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Speaker 2: and the right partner. That's why I personally use Unchained Signature.

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Speaker 2: It's a premium private client service for serious bitcoin holders

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Speaker 2: who want expert guidance, resilient custody, and an enduring partnership.

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Speaker 2: Now Signature, you're paired with your own dedicated account manager,

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Speaker 2: someone who understands your goals helps you every step of

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Speaker 2: day emergency support, personalized education, reduce trading fees, and priority

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Speaker 2: biggest bitcoin custodians, but for those who prefer to hold

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Speaker 2: their own keys. Now. I've been using and recommending unchained

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Speaker 2: for years. I even got my parents to set up

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Speaker 2: isn't just for life, it's for generations.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think there is a place for it, and

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Speaker 1: the world definitely is changing to embrace you know, real

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Speaker 1: world assets tokenization more so. But at the same time

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Speaker 1: the trad file world is evolving too, so I think

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Speaker 1: soon you'll have twenty four to seven trading of equities,

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Speaker 1: and then the question really is what is the benefit

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Speaker 1: of tokenization, And I see a really interesting path from

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Speaker 1: there because it's always a competition. Right if the origin

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Speaker 1: of you know, stocks were bearer, you have a piece

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Speaker 1: of paper and that's your stock and the company. I

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Speaker 1: think real world assets could be very interesting if they're

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Speaker 1: tokenized in a way that they can be bearer, because

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Speaker 1: then you can have distributed ownership. But the question again

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Speaker 1: is does the system as a whole want that.

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Speaker 2: Well, it made it illegal, so I would guess.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, so well with the see but going to

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Speaker 1: that kind of a world is very interesting, not just

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Speaker 1: twenty four to seven trading because I think the old

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Speaker 1: system will evolve in that way, but having a real benefit,

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Speaker 1: which is something is bearer and being able to be

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Speaker 1: okay with that. But like you said, it's not something

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Speaker 1: that the system wants. But what Sailor's point was more

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Speaker 1: so like, I think it's okay now to tokenize things,

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Speaker 1: And the critiques on his talk were more about why

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Speaker 1: are you talking about all these other crypto projects and

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Speaker 1: why you can tokenize on those crypto projects, right, And

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Speaker 1: also he mentioned Katie Perry a bunch of times, and

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Speaker 1: it was funny because people were messaging me and saying

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Speaker 1: what was that about, Like what was he going on about?

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Speaker 1: And I was backstage, so I didn't really hear what

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Speaker 1: he was saying.

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Speaker 2: Well, he was saying that somebody like a Katy Perry, yeah,

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Speaker 2: could create tokens for fine clubs. Yes, he said that

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Speaker 2: a country club could tokenize new memberships, and so you

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Speaker 2: could have influential people musicians, movie stars, athletes, country clubs

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Speaker 2: taking assets that maybe couldn't create a goal before and

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Speaker 2: now they could.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I listened to the talk after, so I did.

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Speaker 1: I caught most of it. But the problem he was

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Speaker 1: saying it didn't work before because I guess he was

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Speaker 1: implying the administration was kind of hostile to that, which

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Speaker 1: we talked about too, right, like the Biden administration. But

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Speaker 1: he said, if you have like regulatory frameworks and there's

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Speaker 1: safety for people, then you kind of removed the fun

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Speaker 1: part of it, which then anyone can just go live

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Speaker 1: and launch a token, right and if you have the protections,

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Speaker 1: then you're going into the realm of it being regulated

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Speaker 1: by something like the SEC. Maybe it's like the fun

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Speaker 1: token securities commission, fun token commission or something like that. Right,

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Speaker 1: But then you do that and you had you add

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Speaker 1: some friction back, right, And there's no way, I think,

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Speaker 1: for any organization to do that. Like Sailor also said,

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Speaker 1: forty million businesses need access to the market.

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Speaker 2: Right, Let's let's stick on the fan club stuff right there? Sure,

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Speaker 2: ygam because I think what he was saying, and I

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Speaker 2: believe Truck put forward this year in one of his

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Speaker 2: executive orders. But the Digital Token Act is to allow

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Speaker 2: these thinks to happen without being considered a security and

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Speaker 2: without the sec oversight, so they're not really a security.

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Speaker 2: And so like I can already charge people to join

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Speaker 2: my membership, why couldn't I just tokenize that without it

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Speaker 2: being in security? And I think that's what he was saying.

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Speaker 2: He there's mine country club membership that happens to be tokenized.

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Speaker 2: Isn't really a security. I don't craze any value whether

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Speaker 2: I paid to join your Katie Prairie Bank club and

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Speaker 2: I get a token or I don't get a token.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if that creates any more value for you.

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Speaker 1: There is some value, I would say, So there is

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Speaker 1: value in tokenization if it is a bare asset, right,

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Speaker 1: Maybe equities no, but definitely a membership token is and

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Speaker 1: is it really bare? Is it transferable? Can you give

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Speaker 1: your Katie Perry fan club membership to me? Right? And

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Speaker 1: this is something that most entities don't want. They don't

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Speaker 1: want that fluidity and liquidity. They want to lock you in.

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Speaker 1: So if someone did want to do that and it's

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Speaker 1: fully transferable, then and they honor that transfer, then that

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Speaker 1: is better than the old system where you cannot have

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Speaker 1: that liquidity or transferability. So maybe he's right in that sense.

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Speaker 1: But then usually when things are tokenized or you know, tradeable,

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Speaker 1: someone wants to regulate that too. But if you can

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Speaker 1: avoid that and it is free flowing, then yes, you

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Speaker 1: can have your fun and tokenize anything. There is a danger,

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Speaker 1: of course of people scamming, but that's always been a danger, yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: and you have laws that's rod, yes, But you open

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Speaker 1: up a bigger can of worms because now anyone can

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Speaker 1: make any fan club and how do you know that

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Speaker 1: that's the real Katy Perry Frank club?

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Speaker 2: Right? Right? Okay, so then you should And then you

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Speaker 2: also mentioned that the forty million businesses that can't raise

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Speaker 2: capital because of costs millions of dollars to take two

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Speaker 2: years to go public. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you think about it, why do we have

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Speaker 1: all the regulations in anscoie public because there were bad

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Speaker 1: actors before and we had to protect the people. So

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Speaker 1: it really comes down to it, can you regulate forty

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Speaker 1: million businesses all going public? And how exactly mechanically would

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Speaker 1: you do that? Do you just step out of the

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Speaker 1: way and say it's like a fang clup token, it's

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Speaker 1: free for all.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think you would. So again, I think what

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Speaker 2: happens is here we are in DC and we have

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Speaker 2: all these legislators. Yes, and their job is to legislate. Yes,

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Speaker 2: we have lawmakers and their job is to make laws.

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Speaker 2: And so you mentioned earlier the scope creek. So what

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Speaker 2: happens is is probably good intentions. Yeah, let's have some

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Speaker 2: consumer protections. But then over years of continuing to make

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Speaker 2: lots of legislations, it's prey right. So like if if

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Speaker 2: in this digital token bill, if a company was able

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Speaker 2: to raise money, maybe it's up to a Serpa amount

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Speaker 2: five million, ten million, one hundred million go to bed numbers,

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Speaker 2: and I had to make disclosures and you had to

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Speaker 2: see captable din ourship. But I could just create top

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Speaker 2: and raise money really quickly and not go to the

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Speaker 2: whole sec in. I mean that could be beneficial. Now,

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Speaker 2: if I defraud you, I broke a law, there's a

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Speaker 2: law for that, right, So I think the laws that

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Speaker 2: we currently have now sort of could catch all of

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Speaker 2: that maybe. And then at the same time and then

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Speaker 2: it's like, do we believe in the nanty state? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean this is the crucks at the issue, right.

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Speaker 1: What will end up? As you could say, forty million

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Speaker 1: businesses can now raise capital, and then some things bad

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Speaker 1: will happen and there will be an outcry to Longleg

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Speaker 1: Harris to say protect us, right, and they will start

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Speaker 1: implementing some lightweight protections, and then they add more and

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Speaker 1: more and they eventually end up with the exact same

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Speaker 1: system we as the public company, with the same costs,

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Speaker 1: same overhead, same complexity.

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Speaker 2: What sailors when we interviewed up here, we talked about it,

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Speaker 2: as he said, you can always have that argument like, hey,

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Speaker 2: maybe the government should make electricity illegal because I shocked

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Speaker 2: to myself. Yeah, and maybe we should raise the driving

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Speaker 2: limited age to sixty because people courge somebody to card.

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Speaker 2: So you're never gonna get away from that, and so

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Speaker 2: you always have to sort of look at the good

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Speaker 2: and the bad in those things. And a few people

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Speaker 2: electrocute themselves what most of us have light he so

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Speaker 2: that's pretty good, right, a few people maybe dying car accidents,

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Speaker 2: but like we can move around the world and that's

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Speaker 2: pretty good, right. So I think that's kind of what

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Speaker 2: he was calling for. I think also what I was

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Speaker 2: hearing was it sounded like he was actually trying to

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Speaker 2: make a clear distinction that bitcoin is a commodity and

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Speaker 2: everything else is maybe non security, but some form of

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Speaker 2: a company and should be completely different. I thought I

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Speaker 2: heard him maybe trying to really designate that differently.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you listen carefully, he's basically implying that all

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Speaker 1: the other crypto projects, blockchain projects, or corporations that well,

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Speaker 1: actually he said it. He said there he set up

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Speaker 1: a Swiss foundation and they're pretending to be decentralized. And

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Speaker 1: now that you agree with that, it's true. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they are corporations, right, that we're pretending to be decentralized.

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Speaker 1: And you can argue was it ethical or not ethical

434
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 1: because at the time the regulations were that, you know,

435
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,120
Speaker 1: if you're a security, you should register. Right at the time,

436
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 1: the laws were very clear. Ethereum was very obviously a

437
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 1: security if you go back and listen to their pitch

438
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 1: to investors. But of course they're kind of grandfathered in

439
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 1: and now it's a free for all everyone, like Tron

440
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 1: is a company now, right, So it just it just

441
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 1: changes with the time. But the danger is the pendulum

442
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: swings the other way. And I've heard a few people

443
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: here in DC kind of mention the same thing, like

444
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 1: if you swing it so far here and everything is

445
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: good and you're able to do anything, and you know,

446
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: Tron is listed, then what happens when the Democrats come

447
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: back into power and they seek to, you know, punish

448
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: some people that may have gained from that, and the

449
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: pendulum goes hard the other way. So I think there

450
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: has to be some balance, Like, yeah, I.

451
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 2: Agree, and but I think, like maybe I just heard

452
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 2: whatever I was biased here, But like I said, I

453
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 2: think you've verged in that he didn't sort of make

454
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 2: this distinction. They're all some sort of quasi company and

455
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 2: maybe maybe not a security, but it's not Bitcoin. And

456
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 2: the reason why maybe I lasted onto that is I

457
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 2: talk about it today when I was up on stage.

458
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: But what I'm afraid of is when these lawmakers are

459
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: now making laws to regulate this, they lump it together.

460
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 2: But bitcoin can't do what the other ones can do.

461
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 2: So they could regulate these things happening on crypto, but

462
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 2: you can't apply that to bitcoin. So I do want

463
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: the lawmakers to understand these are different things right moving forward.

464
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: But the SBR was very encouraging that I would credit

465
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 1: David Sachs with that. You know, there's the SBR crypto stoppal.

466
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 1: This is to be added to or accumulated budget neutraally,

467
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: this is to be disposed of, held until disposed.

468
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I could keep going. I have a

469
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: lot of thoughts on like even token ice in RWA.

470
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: But if you want my opinion, the best way would

471
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 1: be to deregulate everything so you focus more on education.

472
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 1: There's no reason why you can't educate people to think

473
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: critically for themselves, like what is a scam, what is

474
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: not a scam, and that you know you're probably gonna

475
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: lose money if you invest in one of these cryptotokens

476
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: and let the market sort itself out because you can't

477
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 1: really regulate it like, how would you regulate all coins?

478
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: You can't write either you do it or you don't,

479
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,239
Speaker 1: because there's like I don't even know how many there

480
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 1: are now, Like last count I heard like twenty thousand.

481
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: I think, well that was coin marketcap dot com. There's

482
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 2: nineteen point five million.

483
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: Okay there you gone to that find milling and you

484
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: can't regulate those. How can you regulate forty million businesses

485
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: that all want a mini IPO or whatever it is

486
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: to raise capital, right, and then you factor in external

487
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,239
Speaker 1: actors not like at that point you can't really know

488
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: is this an American business or company?

489
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 2: Right? For sure?

490
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: It could be some guys in Pakistan or India. Masturating

491
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: is an American company raising money from Americans. You can't

492
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: control that. So I think what it comes down to

493
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: is you have to be okay with educating and the

494
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: free market. And that's the only way I can see

495
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: this vision of Sailor playing out in a way that works.

496
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and our founding fathers said as much, and they

497
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 2: said that, you know, really this only works with an

498
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 2: educated people, and so we have to educate on what's

499
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: going on, but we also have to be educated on

500
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: the real world. At both you know both times, and

501
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: so to your point, like rather than trying to kick

502
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 2: out all the risk, couldn't be educated demand simbrisk Yeah right,

503
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 2: Like yeah, let's like I said, I have a lot

504
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 2: I could think about RW tokens that we can get into.

505
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 2: The bear instruments are important if I think about it

506
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 2: from a first principles level. I also just think like

507
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 2: how much value is an add right? So for example,

508
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 2: we know Kraken is now doing like tokenized shares, But

509
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 2: to your point, if I don't have this bear instrument

510
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: with his ad any value. Just recently, I've never dosed before,

511
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 2: but my friends send me some tickets for Ticketmaster I

512
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 2: just sent to somebody else, and so I just log

513
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: in my account and I reassigned it. Yeah, I mean

514
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: that's kind of like a token, But I don't think

515
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 2: it happened on a blockchain.

516
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: It's happened in the database, right, well, unless it's the

517
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: Bitcoin blockchain. Most things are kind of central, right is

518
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,719
Speaker 1: that that? That's my entire point, So like how much

519
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: value are they adding? And then you think about like.

520
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 2: Well, let's token is real estate, but like there's no

521
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: global market or liquidity for that, so like how am

522
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 2: I gonna if it's not fungible? So how do I

523
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,959
Speaker 2: measure a token on a duplex at Daytona Beach, Florida

524
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 2: to five hundred unit building in Vancouver like COPI you know,

525
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 2: So it's.

526
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: Like, well, the other thing is if you have the

527
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: token and you lose a token, did you lose your house?

528
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 2: No?

529
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: Right, you got to get it back to somebody, So

530
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: it all goes back to you know, there are maybe

531
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: some minor benefits to tokens doing real estate, but at

532
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: then you have a register and.

533
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: I think a token is a fractional unit. Yeah, and

534
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 2: you can already fractionalize it with with corporation and it

535
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 2: she shares. Yeah. But let's jump up jump topics. Something

536
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: that you've been working on for quite a while, and

537
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 2: you actually talked about it in the beginning. When I

538
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: talk about politics, this nation stated option and when you

539
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: think about like the government's not a monolith. Can we

540
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 2: just get a few more witches, as you said, or

541
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: can we get a few more people that started in bitcoin?

542
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 2: So the first nation I think you started working with

543
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: was El Salvador. Yeah, so I want to know more

544
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: a bigger national state. But let's talk about Elsabdor for

545
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: a minute. The sure El Saberger started off three four

546
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 2: years ago. They made announcement the Good One conference in

547
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 2: Miami that they're going to doop bitcoin and I it

548
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: was this excitement. I've been down there many times. They

549
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 2: started buying a bunch of bitcoin. It's worked out tremendous

550
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: for them. Yeah, they thought well that they did very well.

551
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: They're going to do the bitcoin bond, which was the volcano.

552
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: And it looks like everything's kind of been unraveling. Governments

553
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 2: will never stop printing money, so inflation it's not going

554
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 2: away now. If your money's not earning at least ten

555
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 2: percent a year, you're losing purchasing power. And that's why

556
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: I talk about bitcoin. It's the number one way to

557
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 2: beat in relation and secure your future. And the question

558
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: I get asked almost every day is where do you

559
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 2: buy your bitcoin? Now? For years, I've personally used River

560
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: dot com and I only take on sponsors that I

561
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: use and I trust, and I trust them because River's

562
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: bitcoin only. They have one hundred percent reserve, and they

563
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: keep your bitcoin safe in cold storage with no middlemen,

564
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 2: and you can actually talk to a real person, a

565
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 2: US based support dedicated manager. Now try getting that peace

566
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: of mind from coinbase. Of course you can't. Now the

567
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: perks if you set up auto buys, you can pay

568
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 2: zero fees plus. Instead of your bank paying you, you know,

569
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: zero point four percent on cash, River pays you three

570
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: point seven five percent on cash paid in bitcoin. So

571
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 2: if you're ready to build your bitcoin position with confidence,

572
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: go to River dot com, slash mark Moss and get

573
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: up to one hundred dollars in bitcoin when you sign up.

574
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: Because freedom starts when you own your money, and your

575
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: money starts with bitcoin. What's going on in l savad

576
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 2: or the just did it uption?

577
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: They're hard to say. There hasn't been much direct communication,

578
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: and it's become sort of a loyalty test, like who

579
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: do you trust us or the IMF because Alsalva are

580
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: saying they're buying, but the agreement with the IMF says

581
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: we will not buy, and that is signed by the

582
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: Minister of Finance and you know, at the direction of

583
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: the President unless he did it without the President knowing,

584
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: which I don't think is possible. So there is kind

585
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: of confusion now and a lot of bitcoinners are also

586
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: asking questions like how is this possible, but the reality

587
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: is like somebody is not being forthcoming here, either the

588
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: IMF or the Minister of Finance or the President's and

589
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: it just comes down to this loyalty test now being

590
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: pushed out, like, you know, do you believe the IMF.

591
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: That's what a lot of supporters of Al Salvad are saying.

592
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: But then you know, Al Salvador also said we're not

593
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: buying anymore, so it puts us in a very difficult

594
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: position and there's a lot of uncertainty. Also when they

595
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: walked back at the Bitcoin law, which was a provision

596
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: of their agreement with the IMF, that was kind of

597
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: they've had to soften the bitcoin mall. So basically there

598
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: is a bitcoin mall, but it is like voluntary, which

599
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: is the legal tender. Yes it is in writing legal tender,

600
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: but it's voluntary.

601
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: You're not unforcate or making anybody accept it.

602
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, they didn't, but now it's not in there anymore.

603
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: And there are other provisions there weakening the bitcoin law,

604
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: but it does still exist in paper print format right.

605
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: But the whole process of that being rolled out I

606
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: think frustrated a lot of bitcoiners because it was this

607
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: pushed out, you know, in night one evening and no

608
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: communications were sent from the government. So you can understand

609
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: how people could be frustrated. If you move there with

610
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: your family and you set up your life there, your

611
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: business and everything, and the reason you move there was

612
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: because it was this law and adoption of bitcoin, and

613
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: things are being rolled back, it could be very frustrating

614
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: me and I can understand that.

615
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 2: And then you mentioned earlier about a nation, it's the

616
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: wells of a nation is typical has been on the

617
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 2: energy that they had they had. I thought it was

618
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: very interesting that you said that you could have the

619
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: nuclear power plant and then create energy right by mining

620
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 2: dew coin. And I thought it was very interesting. They

621
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: had this volcano, which typically you think about savad or

622
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: four nation with no exports, and now they have a

623
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: volcano which is really useless. Well, they could use the

624
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: energy to my bitcoin. They have power. And then I

625
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 2: started thinking about the indications that globally, so like Drew

626
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: South Pacific, you have a toolls with the volcanos and

627
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: they could have they could plug into that generate keep

628
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 2: mine bitcoin, you starling, and like they could generate growing

629
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: that that could redistribute the power of the world, which

630
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: I thought it was pretty amazing, but then I think

631
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: the whole volcano mining thing did that all fall.

632
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: Of fart as well.

633
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: Well.

634
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: It was supposed to be launching twenty twenty three and

635
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: it just didn't happen, which is unfortunate because the structure

636
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: that I put together was buying half a billion dollars

637
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: worth bitcoin at that time, which would have been forty

638
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: seven maybe fifty thousand dollars per coin, so that would

639
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: have proved out this bitcoin bond model. But other countries

640
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: are still interested in it, so we'll see what happens.

641
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: But going back to the conversion of energy to money,

642
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: the biggest geothermal potential out there in the world is

643
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: the Philippines and it is, you know, a developing country,

644
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: so if they did move into the bitcoin bond program,

645
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: that would have changed it. And the second biggest is Indonesia,

646
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: another country that has a massive amount of geothermal potential,

647
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: so they could become the next you know, Ua or

648
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia. Yeah, and incredibly credibly wealthy if they decided

649
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: to tap into that.

650
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 2: And Bitcoe, are you dropping to those nations.

651
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: We're reaching out. There have been forays into meetings, but

652
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: we haven't nailed out a meeting yet, but Paraguay, where

653
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: we just came back from, they are very interested in

654
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: hydro bond so B. The ones that I designed for

655
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: Alsavado were called volcano bonds Bass of volcanoes and Parbuay

656
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: has four Taiwan hours of the year excess, okay, and

657
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: they're interested to do something. So we know with the

658
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: senator there and he's espalating the bosal up okay and

659
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: the food chain, and I.

660
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 2: Want to know, I want to know more about the bonds.

661
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 2: I'm gonna come back to that, but let's just stick

662
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: on the al store for a minute. So, uh, the

663
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 2: per the ifdo, which I thought Big one had gone

664
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 2: up so much they could have paid off the IMF debt,

665
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 2: I thought, But here they are taking on more IMF

666
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 2: debt and per the terms of the new IMF debt,

667
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 2: and they had to roll that back. As you said,

668
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 2: in the IMF documents, it says that they can't buy

669
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 2: bick one anymore. Yeah. Uh, they said they're buying, but

670
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 2: they used to announce their buis and now they don't

671
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:46,959
Speaker 2: announce any bodies.

672
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: So they still announced, but the other's still announced. There's

673
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: an analyst Samny He did some analysis and so we

674
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: theorized that it was transfers, internal transfers, and he kind

675
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: of confirmed it, like they're sending it to finance and

676
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: then sending.

677
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 2: It back to the wallet.

678
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 1: So there are other government of wallets that have bitcoin

679
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: that are not public right now, right, so there there

680
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 1: are current bitcoin reserves are public, but there's something else

681
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: that they can draw from.

682
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, would they like I mean, I guess maybe the

683
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: governments don't need to report that, but I mean, would

684
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 2: they come out with that poorly annually? Do I'm a

685
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: document sent to a board their assets like.

686
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: Well, we'll see, but so far the emd of documents

687
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: don't show their total holdings. It just says total holdings

688
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: are unchanged, which kind of is corroberated by Sandy's analysis.

689
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: In the wall chain, an unchanged could be one they

690
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 2: did sell but also they didn't buy. Yeah. God, okay, Well,

691
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 2: as you said, I mean, if we back test what

692
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 2: the bond could have been would have been amazing. So

693
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,240
Speaker 2: you sort of have as back tested. Now you're talking

694
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 2: so so paaraway frame of how the bond works and

695
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 2: how a nation state could benefit in that Canada as

696
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: you said as a ton of energy, but how would

697
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: a nation state the ton of energy Philippines in Indonesia

698
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 2: benefit from a bond.

699
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: Basically, the bitcoin bond is what Strategy and SLOR are doing,

700
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: but with sovereign debt instead of you know, corporate debt

701
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 1: or preferred shares. It's the exact same thing. You raise capital,

702
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: it's a dollar denominated, you allocate a portion to buy bitcoin,

703
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: which will pay back the principle, and then you invest.

704
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: For Alsalvador was half into a revenue generating activity like

705
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: mining bitcoin or building new energy infra also mine bitcoin,

706
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: which will pay the cupon off. So it's basically a

707
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 1: way to buy bitcoin for countries that have no good

708
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: way to buy bitcoin right or are more impoverished. But

709
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: for Alsalvador was tricky because you have to kind of

710
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: figure out how to allocate the existing energy that they had,

711
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: because to build a new geothermal climb takes ten years,

712
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: maybe maybe five years, maybe ten years, but you can

713
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,959
Speaker 1: kind of like move stuff around, shift things around, and

714
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: squeeze out some energy to mine. But for Parkway, they

715
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: have a massive amount of access right now, so they

716
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: could raise and start mining tomorrow.

717
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 2: Okay, they have sex, they raise what ten billion or

718
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 2: start with a billion to the billion, and then so

719
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 2: the five hundred million goes into the mining equipment and

720
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 2: you actually start mining. Yeah, and then five hundred million

721
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 2: by bitcoin buys Bigcoin. And then is that a five year.

722
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: Bond or a ten year bond or I like a

723
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: ten year about ten year bond because yea, theoretically in

724
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: five years the kigir on bigcoin could be zero, right,

725
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: but ten years you're definitely gonna be up. So the

726
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: key is that the bild the five zero over five

727
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: years worst case scenario, west case scenario, it could.

728
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: Be okay, okay, but not likely.

729
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, point zero one chance.

730
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, just just for the record, sure edything in Alley

731
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,439
Speaker 2: Sailor looks says to be precise twenty nine percent over

732
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: the next twenty one years. Yeah, that's what he says,

733
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: thirty percent. I think it continued the fifty percent of

734
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 2: the least for the rest of the decade. I think

735
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 2: there's a case to be made or argued for potentially

736
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 2: even seeing why the Kaggart could actually start to accelerate

737
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 2: a little bit as bigger money comes in and we

738
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 2: start to tap into these big ghost calendar. Sam has

739
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 2: bit quite twenty four model and a tapers right. Yeah, yeah,

740
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 2: I have a model.

741
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: We haven't published it yet. O, we should publish it.

742
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: But it's called the it'll be called Omega sixty basically

743
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: sixty percent of growth every year based on a sixty

744
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: percent medium. Yeah.

745
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: You're the one pushing the god candle.

746
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: I mean the god candles ten K. It's already happened

747
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: many times. Yeah, Omega candles the next one hundred K,

748
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: one hundred k.

749
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I mean we're starting to talk, we're starting

750
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 2: to chip into the dam holding back, you know, three

751
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 2: indred trying to fixed endgup. Yeah, and if a big

752
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 2: enough chumper that comes into two shoe on dollar asset,

753
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: you think they can move a lot. So okay, so

754
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 2: ten years just to be safe, and then it's all

755
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 2: it needs to do is double because then that pays

756
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 2: off the bond. Ye, it'll more than double. I get.

757
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 2: But but you're banzered. But worst case scenario. Yeah, right, Well,

758
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: when you're.

759
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: Pitching to governments, you should actually try to be as

760
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 1: conservative sure possible. Sure, even for me, I think sixty

761
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 1: percent annual road is conservative.

762
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, So then they pay off the bond, and they

763
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 2: get all the infrastructure and the mind bitcoin from that,

764
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 2: and the revenue is gener.

765
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 1: But also I structured in a way where you recoup

766
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,760
Speaker 1: the principle after five years and then let's say bitcoin triple,

767
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: then you have more bitcoin left otor right, so then

768
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: you share that bitcoin upside with the investors.

769
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there are.

770
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: Many permutations here. The key is that investors have some

771
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: extra exposure to bitcoin, not just the base cube partner, right,

772
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: and it ideally scales what bitcoins, you know, astronomical growth.

773
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean as opposed to a traditional bond.

774
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 2: Right now, today I just have to beat money back. Yeah,

775
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: but I didn't make any more money to pay off

776
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 2: the money.

777
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: So so, but if you look at it, like a

778
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: lot of Latin American countries are in debt to IMF

779
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: or whoever, and this is really the only way for

780
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: them to get out of debt. We we presented we

781
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: prepared a debt for Argentina and it's like you know,

782
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: making its way up the food chain. But we did

783
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: some projections and we think if they did a sort

784
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: of a DCA bond doing a billion a year, they

785
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: could probably pay off their debt I think one hundred

786
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: plus billion dollars of debt in thirty years. If they

787
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: did a lump sum bond issuance of what was it,

788
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: thirty billion in bonds in one year this year, they

789
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: will pay it off in ten years. They will be

790
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: debt free in ten years.

791
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, So that's going to Mila. Yeah, and most

792
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 2: like Trump and bassent you know, the US wants to

793
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: open up those swap lines to Argentina, so they're gonna

794
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 2: have some money and there. Maybe Trump's pro bitcoin stance

795
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 2: could get down there a little bit. Maybe we'll go

796
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 2: for that.

797
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 1: Argentina is also an entry bridge too, so they could

798
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,919
Speaker 1: you know, outside of that program, they can do bitcoin money.

799
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay, now you're talking about South American countries, Alsabador, Argentina, Paraguay,

800
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 2: et cetera. Another thing that you're trying to tackle is

801
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: unbanked people. Yes, per the IMF. I mean, it's got

802
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: the years where I thought it was like a billion

803
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 2: or a billion or a billion and a half people

804
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 2: adults actually not people adults, and a one that weren't

805
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 2: bank You say, maybe the numbers higher. I'm guessing a

806
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 2: lot of that's probably in South America. I'm guessing that's

807
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 2: coming from number one. Most people don't have permission to

808
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 2: join than unreay documents, we're in a sanctun country, or

809
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: they're so core they can't afford a bank account.

810
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: Well, the thing is banks don't want customers. It's too

811
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 1: risky for them now to have customers. Right, That's why

812
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: it's kind of weird to say. It's true, like it's

813
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: harder today to get a bank account than ever before

814
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 1: because of all the regulatory requirements. Right. Compliance teams are

815
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: growing in size, and it's risky. Like unless you're putting

816
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: a lot of money at the bank, you're a cost

817
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: center to them. You're not a revenue generating you know,

818
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: lender to the bank at that point. So there is

819
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 1: no encouragement to bank the unbanked. And this is why

820
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 1: I think stable coins are becoming so prevalent, because they're

821
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: the last mile. If you look at tether in Latin America,

822
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: people just call it digital dollar. They don't know it's tether,

823
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 1: they don't know who Paulo is. It's just the digital

824
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: dollar that they can get on their phone, and that's

825
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 1: good enough for them because for them, that's their bitcoin.

826
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: That's the thing that protects them against the inflation of

827
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 1: the peso or whatever bolivar or the currency that they have,

828
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: and we just have to get them to understand that,

829
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: you know, bitcoin is better than that. So it's a

830
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 1: it's a process, I think, and it won't.

831
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 2: Be long before they just call it a dollar. Yeah,

832
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: and not even digital.

833
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: Well in Bolivia they're pricing things in the grocery stores

834
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: in the USCT really yeah.

835
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 2: Interesting, So as part of your big initiative to bank

836
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 2: the n banked is to give them access to digital dollars, well,

837
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 2: do to reap or what's there through awfua A.

838
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: How are you in that, Bob, So I would say

839
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: we're approaching the USDT users in lat M. There's four hundred,

840
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,439
Speaker 1: maybe four fifty now a million users of us ET.

841
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: Unfortunately a lot of them are using all coin wallets.

842
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: But I think we are the first bitcoin wallet that

843
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: has stable coin support. So in Aqua you can receive

844
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 1: stable coins from other chains. It'll swap it to liquid tether.

845
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: That's the base of Aqua. It's a liquid wallet, and

846
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 1: then from there you can swap it to liquid bitcoin,

847
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: send it out over lightning, or swap it to bitcoin

848
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: mainchain and put in cold storage. So that's kind of

849
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 1: how we plan to onboard them. Do local integrations, integrate

850
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: with local payment providers where they can like, you know,

851
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 1: send picks to their aqua wallet and get the pick.

852
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: Stable coin dpicks.

853
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 2: What's that?

854
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 1: It's the stable cooin of the Brazilian currency. Yeah, the

855
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 1: Brazilian digital bank currency cult base. But there are a

856
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: lot of these systems in place in lack America. You

857
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: just have to build the right wallet that integrates all

858
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: the on and off remds and connects it to bitcoin. Yeah,

859
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: and that's what awkoy is.

860
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: So markets are you n So far?

861
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: We have a lot of users all over the world,

862
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: but Brazil and Argentina are two of our bigger ones.

863
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 2: What I love about that is I think about stable

864
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 2: coins as a very necessary step. Bitcoins just isn't good

865
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 2: for short term money. It's just two balter for shorter money.

866
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 2: The stable coins solve that problem. But also it's like

867
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: this gateway drug where it's like I don't know about

868
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 2: this magic internet money, but oh dollars, okay, fine, Yeah,

869
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,399
Speaker 2: over time they're like, why do these dollars keep buying

870
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 2: me less and less and less? But this bitcoin buys

871
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 2: me more and more and more, and then they can

872
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 2: see them compared to each other exactly.

873
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: So at the top of ACO we have a bitcoin

874
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: price and then it shows bitcoin. There are two bitcoin

875
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: liquid Bitcoin, and then USDT. So if they're using it

876
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: for USTT, they're always seeing the bitcoin price at the top,

877
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: and they should eventually understand that. You know, maybe we

878
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 1: should get some and you just swap it.

879
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: Real estate or bitcoin. Which one's better. Well, it's not

880
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 2: about choosing one, it's about using both together. Because today

881
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 2: sixty percent of American homeowners net worth is trapped in

882
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 2: their home and there's no way to put it to

883
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 2: work in bitcoin until now. Horizons help you unlock a

884
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 2: portion of your home equity to buy bitcoin. And it's

885
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: not alone. There's no new monthly payments and you stay

886
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 2: in your home just as usual, but you leverage your

887
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 2: equity to get bitcoin exposure. Now what makes Horizon stand out, Well,

888
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 2: there's no term limits. You keep one hundred percent of

889
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 2: the upside of the bitcoin, and the bitcoin is yours

890
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 2: to custody however you want, with no risk of forced liquidation.

891
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 2: So if you've got equity but you don't want to

892
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 2: refinance or take on new debt, but you would like

893
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 2: some bitcoin exposure. Horizon could be the perfect option, so

894
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 2: check out. Joinhrizon dot com to learn more and get

895
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: an extra five hundred dollars in bitcoin if you use

896
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 2: my code moss MSS and you get funded again. Join

897
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 2: Horizon dot com code moss to get an extra five

898
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 2: hundred dollars in bitcoin. You used to work about to

899
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 2: Adam back? Right? Yeah, yeah, what'll more? Cally you get

900
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 2: at them back? Yeah? What do you think about bitcoin

901
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 2: treasury companies? And Adam seems to be like all in,

902
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 2: like both feet in. Yeah. Are you as excited about

903
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 2: them as he is? Or what's your view point on those? Oh?

904
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: I own strategy. I supported Sailor's goal from day one.

905
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,720
Speaker 1: I think it's how you look at it. Some treasure

906
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: companies seem to be marketing to retail, right, Sailor's approaching

907
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: a different market segment. He's going after fixed income. And

908
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 1: I think this is where some bitcoins may sit on

909
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 1: different sides of the fence, because if you're targeting retail,

910
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: they feel like you're just taking advantage of people. But

911
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 1: if you're targeting a bigger market and you're you know,

912
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 1: becoming this monetary black hole putting everything into bitcoin. I

913
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: think that's good for bitcoin. That's why sports sailors initiatives. Yeah, yeah,

914
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 1: what's your thinking go on? Uh, well, well you're biased.

915
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,439
Speaker 2: IM sure, I'm biased because I'm involved in several of them.

916
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 2: I think, first of all, it's it's a process. So, right,

917
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 2: he's like six years into or whatever out of five

918
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 2: years into it. Now, you're right. So it's like a process,

919
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 2: and he was able to start with such a massive size.

920
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: So I think I think phase one is get to

921
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 2: a big enough asset base, yes, and that's probably at

922
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: least a billion and eight thousand big point. Then once

923
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,919
Speaker 2: you have the asset base, then you need to phase two,

924
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 2: which is then creating securitize debt and credit instruments off

925
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 2: of the big gooing of bout cheat. But phase one

926
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 2: is sort of that bootstrappy moment, which is like, hey,

927
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 2: we need volume on the stop, we need eyeballs. We

928
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 2: can raise the money to get the asset phase. And

929
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: then ultimately a two point that you made Sailor's customer

930
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 2: is not a bigcoinner. Say this customer somebody who wants indome. Yes,

931
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 2: they're the opposite of a quick customer exactly like I

932
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 2: can't hoddle for five years up seventy eight years old.

933
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 2: I got to pay by bills tomorrow, right, so that

934
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 2: I can't hollow bick them. So they're not a big

935
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 2: one buyer. So that's his target. But I think in

936
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 2: the beginning a lot of its companies are bootstrapping off

937
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 2: with bigfoiners, and then bitcoin aers start asking questions like

938
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 2: why would it I perform bitcoin? Which is a great

939
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: question to ask, That's what I would ask you, won't no,

940
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 2: they certainly will.

941
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: You think so oh yeah, it's certain Well we'll see.

942
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you why I think that.

943
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 2: But let me finished stot. But uh, the bitcoinners should

944
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 2: be asked that that's our paral rate. Why would I

945
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,800
Speaker 2: put my money inthing else? Again, be a bitcoin? However,

946
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 2: most of the world doesn't think that way. Trad File says,

947
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 2: will it beat inflation or will it beat the S

948
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 2: and B five founder? Yeah, And so I think if

949
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: you can market to trad fy, then you have much

950
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: bigger market and they're not trying to beat that paral way, right,

951
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 2: So I think the big one person is a smaller

952
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 2: person or smaller, but just morket. Why do I think

953
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 2: it'll be bitcoin. It's because of the multiple rights so

954
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,839
Speaker 2: current and the metric that Sailor introduced is this M

955
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 2: that number. It's a multiple to an asset value. It's

956
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 2: no different than a price to book that you would

957
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 2: see in traditional finance. Right, try five? Why should it

958
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: trade more than one? Right? So if it stays the

959
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 2: same as bitcoin, it'd be one times and a half. Right.

960
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 2: If it can go to one point two or one

961
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: point five or two point zero, then it beats bitcoin, right,

962
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: So why should it get more than one? Well, the

963
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 2: reason why it gets to more than one is because

964
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 2: they're using leverage. Ye. So if I borrowed fifty percent

965
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 2: LTV a's my bitcoin, buy more bitcoin, I'm leveraged and

966
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 2: I'll probably outperformed by a big one. I'm gonna have

967
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 2: to do it with provolatility, right, but I'll outperform bitclin Right.

968
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 2: So it's adding leverage that gives us that out performance.

969
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 2: How do we do that? First of all, if we

970
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,240
Speaker 2: look at like asset heavy businesses, so this would be banks,

971
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 2: insurance institutions, oil companies, they're typically trading a one to

972
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 2: two maybe a one to three priced book ratio, so

973
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 2: banks have leverage. Of course, the top ten bank trade

974
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,439
Speaker 2: a higher leverage than community banks, for example, but they're

975
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 2: all trading greater than one typically, like when the oil

976
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 2: christ snappture down for point eight, but like most of

977
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 2: the time it's in that rage. So I think that's

978
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 2: sort of like a range sailor thinks that if you

979
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 2: watch his quarter two presentation, he you know, and you've

980
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 2: been with it many times. He thinks in like ten

981
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,280
Speaker 2: to twenty year chucks, so not two months or five months,

982
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 2: ten year chunks. So in his charts they're modeled for

983
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 2: ten years. And this is where a lot of MicroStrategy

984
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 2: investors get very frustrated. And he's like, hey, we've doubled

985
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 2: Bitcoin's performance in the last twelve months and five years.

986
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 2: What about this quarter? This court Like I'm thinking ten years, right,

987
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 2: So he breaks that chart and there's three levers. You

988
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: have leverage. How much leverage will we apply it? And

989
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 2: we apply the leverage prefers. So anytime I take on

990
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 2: debt numbers or I sell preferreds, that's the levers. Then

991
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 2: you have the ar R of the bigcoin, and then

992
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 2: the KGAR and then you have the how much after payout?

993
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 2: So those are three very put in there. But if

994
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 2: we get like a thirty percent KGAR and a thirty

995
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 2: percent leverage and an eight percent yel, yeah, that would

996
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 2: give him what he calls bitcoin factor. I think of

997
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 2: two point nine or more. So he thinks that's the floor, right,

998
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 2: it should trade it a minimum three times a bigcoin

999
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 2: because of the leverage.

1000
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,439
Speaker 1: I think it could go higher if I said floor floor.

1001
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I said the floor.

1002
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 1: But if you look at a lot of other companies,

1003
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:37,240
Speaker 1: it's your your pe ratio is sure, they're insane.

1004
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 2: Sometimes no, right of first, I mean it should be twenty, right,

1005
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 2: so if you look at like the price to book

1006
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 2: of Tesla and now if I'm twenty thirty whatever, So no,

1007
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 2: he said that should be the floor. So two nine

1008
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 2: three times before, so that's three times the performance of bitcoin.

1009
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 2: Now he could easily get to more leverage. And we

1010
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 2: also probably both think that bitcoin does better than thirty percent.

1011
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 2: So now we're at five or six times, right, and

1012
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:05,959
Speaker 2: then you start thinking about, okay, what if we start

1013
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 2: buying these is a growth company and the astogy old

1014
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 2: bank because banks and oil companies don't have assets that

1015
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 2: are going up in a fifty percent of kag are

1016
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 2: So now should it be six or eight times? So

1017
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 2: I'm saying three times, and that's why I think the

1018
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: output film big one. Now will all of them do that?

1019
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 2: Of course not, but I think most of the good

1020
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 2: companies should achieve at least a one and a half

1021
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 2: or two times, and they should most of the companies upfolder.

1022
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: Right, So it depends on what time frame. If you're

1023
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: like an investor, I guess I'm looking at quarters right, Well,

1024
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: they shouldn't. Yeah, they should.

1025
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 2: That's a big dismatch, I know.

1026
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 1: But sailor, yes, he's looking at ten twenty. But I

1027
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,320
Speaker 1: think eventually there is a time in which there is

1028
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,800
Speaker 1: no more capital to sell to there be three hundred trillion.

1029
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 1: We'll see can three hundred trillion acts pitcoin?

1030
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 2: Directly?

1031
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: I think things will change, like if you'll get metiplanet.

1032
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: They have kind of a mote, right, But if the

1033
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:01,240
Speaker 1: laws change and spot bitcoin is now not taxes heavily,

1034
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 1: I think it'll see a decline. But if you take

1035
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 1: that principle apply it to the broader market, you know,

1036
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 1: whenever it happens that a lot of that capital can

1037
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 1: go to spot. I think it'll change that equation, but

1038
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: for maybe maybe ten years, maybe twenty years, maybe thirty years,

1039
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 1: it could perform. But I think ultimately it equalizes it.

1040
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 2: As some mooint I think. I think this is where

1041
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 2: the discrepancy is that most of the market's missing is

1042
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 2: going on. And you just said it. Actually so you

1043
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,800
Speaker 2: said that he's going after institutional investors. Yeah, so the

1044
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 2: real product that's that micro strategy, micro strategy sold the

1045
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 2: teleto software strategy, it's a new product. Is selling credit instruments. Yes,

1046
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 2: that's where they're on. So they're selling ten percent yielding

1047
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 2: products to people who would never buy bitcoin. They're not

1048
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 2: buying bitcoin, right, they're buying ten percent to yield the products.

1049
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 1: But let me asking, Mark, do you see a point

1050
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: at which does it Okay, does the dollar co exist.

1051
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 2: With bitcoin forever? Well? Or where was a long time? Well,

1052
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 2: let's say let's say fifty years.

1053
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, you think it coils is for fifty years?

1054
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 2: Okay.

1055
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 1: I'm of the cap, which is it does the mechanic

1056
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: co exist? Eventually? Something's got to give that people just

1057
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 1: want one thing.

1058
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 2: But I nobody knows when I would use history as

1059
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,320
Speaker 2: our guide, right, So the dollar took over the reserve

1060
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 2: status from the pounds sterling one hundred years ago and roughly,

1061
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 2: and that was about a forty year process. Yeah, so

1062
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 2: it didn't happen overnight. It was like a process. Right,

1063
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 2: But even today, one hundred years later, the pound sterling

1064
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 2: is still the third most used currency in the world

1065
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 2: and they produce no exports, have nothing of value about

1066
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 2: the brom on the bus, but they're still there. Yeah,

1067
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 2: why is it still the third most use currency in

1068
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,800
Speaker 2: the world, right, So I think I think so bitcoin

1069
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 2: could take thirty forty fifty years to become the reserve

1070
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 2: currency of the world, the United account of the world,

1071
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 2: but it doesn't actually mean that the dollar goes away. Alt.

1072
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: Why is the pound sterling still there because bitcoin is

1073
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 1: still young? I would say, yeah, maybe it depends on

1074
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: your figure. Like if bitcoin is the best form of

1075
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: money ever created, and we have the ability to teleport

1076
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 1: bitcoin around the world in an instant, we can verify,

1077
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: you can't counterfeit it.

1078
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 2: Maybe it changes the diameter. It does it does because

1079
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 2: it can be everything in one asset. Yeah, it can

1080
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,240
Speaker 2: be the whole stack in one and so I'd agree.

1081
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,439
Speaker 2: I've given where I think it is by twenty thirty,

1082
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 2: twenty forty, twenty fifty. I think after twenty fifty twenty

1083
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 2: twenty fifty to twenty fifty five, it becomes a unit

1084
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,720
Speaker 2: to account of the world. And at that point maybe

1085
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 2: there is the meat for one hundred power refiats.

1086
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 1: There are, we'll see. But I just know there's a

1087
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: lot of inefficiencies with your currencies, and we're going to

1088
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 1: see a lot more drop away. And you had in

1089
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 1: the past, you know, reboots of currencies, and I don't

1090
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,720
Speaker 1: think that's possible today. Like if you're if your currency

1091
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 1: is hyper and plate inflating, you can't make a new one,

1092
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: you know, with bitcoin and stable coins, you just cannot

1093
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:13,359
Speaker 1: sell it. Right, the alternative exists now, so I think

1094
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: you're gonna see fewer and fewer FIA currencies. Sure, we'll

1095
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 1: just all roll under the dollar, the dollar rise. Yeah,

1096
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 1: and eventually to be determined, it either co exists or

1097
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 1: it doesn't.

1098
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 2: Col I think there's twenty five or thirty years and

1099
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 2: then it becomes Union account and then the dollar or

1100
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 2: Robbly Vain the distance and I think we agree maybe

1101
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 2: a little bit different thro on time brain, but most

1102
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 2: of the same. But but we have. What I think

1103
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 2: is interesting is you take again three hundred trillion dollars

1104
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 2: of I mean, what does that number either pre troia

1105
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 2: like saying right of fixed income and if you think

1106
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 2: about it, right, like so I'm a simply ago first

1107
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 2: and and I need the income. Right, so I have

1108
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 2: money a debt that i'd be in that yofa and

1109
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 2: currently that debt is based off for fiat debt. Yes,

1110
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 2: but what happens is that's paying me four percent. Let's

1111
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 2: say it was gonna pay me ten percent. Yeah, So

1112
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 2: I'm going to take the debt and I'm just going

1113
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 2: to move it. The debt doesn't go away, and he

1114
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 2: doesn't get extinguished, but it now moves to a bitcoin layer.

1115
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 2: So it's almost like the bedrock of this three hundred

1116
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 2: trillion gets rug pulled and bitcoin goes under. So the

1117
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 2: three hundred trillion is still there, but now sit on

1118
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 2: a bitcoin layer. Yeah, that's a good point.

1119
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: What could prolong with dollars lifetime is just so many

1120
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: debts are dollar denominated, Yeah, country, sovereign level and something

1121
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 1: that could that could mean they need dollars still.

1122
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 2: That's the that's Brent Johnson dog milkshake theory. Whole basis

1123
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 2: is that all the debt is dollar denominated and it

1124
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 2: has to get extinguished, and so it has to get

1125
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 2: paid back when the dollar. Yeah, yeah, we're we're going long.

1126
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 2: But I want to I want to dig into the

1127
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 2: main topic I want to talk to you about.

1128
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 1: So we first chatted about it.

1129
00:57:55,920 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is that's at least the immediate future

1130
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 2: of bitcoin in the consensus or the protocol. And so

1131
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 2: there's a big debate that's going on in the bitcoin community.

1132
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 2: And this might be a little bit in a deef

1133
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 2: and maybe a little bit too much merdige for most

1134
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 2: of my community. So I'm sorry about this, but it's

1135
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 2: important topic. Bitcoin is sort of creating a division between

1136
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 2: Bitcoin Core that maintains the code based trying to go

1137
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 2: from B twin I to be thirty and some people

1138
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 2: don't like that. And so now we have this not

1139
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 2: spin off that's trying to do something else over here.

1140
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 2: So let's freak what the heck is going on.

1141
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 1: So it comes down to the core developers are changing

1142
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 1: a default and why it's causing such a stir. It's

1143
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 1: not really a technical thing like changing people like say,

1144
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 1: it's a technical discussion changing the default is not technical.

1145
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 1: You're removing it. You're changing the limit by removing the limit.

1146
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: It's really about telling other bitcoins what to do. And

1147
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: Core is the main implementation right now, so what they

1148
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: change has a massive impact on the market. A lot

1149
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 1: of people just upgrade, like most people just blindly upgrade

1150
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 1: their software, and this is what people are kind of

1151
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: up and uproar about. And there's many different opinions on

1152
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: the detrimental effects of the upgrade. But to me, the

1153
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 1: crux is Core is changing a default, and I, as

1154
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 1: a node runner, don't want to be told what to do.

1155
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 1: So people are moving to knots for many reasons. One

1156
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: of them is a protest vote, like, you're not telling

1157
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 1: me what to do because you know bitcoinners are very sovereign,

1158
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:29,919
Speaker 1: and well why do they have to be.

1159
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 2: Told what to do? But just can't every node runner

1160
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 2: stand be twenty nine?

1161
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 1: They can, and a lot will stay on twenty nine.

1162
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 1: I'm kind of in a neutral faction. I'm just saying

1163
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 1: I'm not upgrading. I'm not gonna let you change the defaults.

1164
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: But the defaults do matter because when the rest of

1165
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: when like the miners upgrade and they go to thirty.

1166
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 1: Then that changes the network behavior because they run a

1167
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 1: lot on the defaults, and that is what a lot

1168
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 1: of the people in the knots camp are worried about that.

1169
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 1: Now you just remove the limit and we're gonna have

1170
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 1: massive opera turns and spammer are going to spam and

1171
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 1: make a new collection of cat NFTs that are one

1172
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: hundred kilobytes to take advantage of that.

1173
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 2: So one, why, I mean, why are they book going

1174
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 2: for between ninety thirty? As you said, it seems like

1175
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 2: they're making a change to accommodate and that will people

1176
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 2: censorly the minor so the miners can reap all money necessarily,

1177
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 2: but maybe for other Layer two applications, yes, right, so

1178
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 2: like layer two's and miners shouldn't be forced to create

1179
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 2: an innovay based off of layer one. Layer one shouldn't

1180
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 2: change for layer two. That seems like.

1181
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: That's another part of it. I mean, I would seem

1182
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 1: like a good end. The rationale was another company in

1183
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 1: called Cetrea. They're polluting the utfsode set. So that's like

1184
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 1: kind of transactions that are you know, Bitcoin transactions. It's

1185
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 1: a big database and it's often stored in memory and

1186
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 1: then you have like the operatar, which is the thing

1187
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 1: that's sored on disc that can be discarded. You want

1188
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 1: to proven. But the concern is like, we don't want

1189
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 1: them to make these UTXO transactions. We'd rather have to

1190
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 1: have an outperturn so we can get rid of it.

1191
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: So that's kind of one of their many rationales. It's

1192
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 1: a very complicated, multifaceted.

1193
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know debate. I believe that there's a

1194
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 2: lot of entering the consequences, so things could happen that

1195
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 2: we're not there for. We don't know until we know.

1196
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 2: I also believe that everything has trade off. Yeah, there's

1197
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 2: no free lunch right to get something to give something.

1198
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 2: So then if we go to knots now they have

1199
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 2: a way to handle that. But what's the trade off there? Now?

1200
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 2: Are they censoring it or they put in a filter

1201
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 2: and choosing that to run certain things the filter which

1202
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 2: is another form of censorshow yes and no.

1203
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 1: I mean, here's if the crux of it. One side

1204
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:54,880
Speaker 1: is saying it can be filtered and the other side

1205
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 1: is saying it cannot be filtered, and they're both right

1206
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 1: because you can buycass filters. Filters are done at the

1207
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 1: node level. If the miners decide to mind a transaction,

1208
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: it'll go in the blockchain. So both are right. You

1209
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:11,920
Speaker 1: can filter, the filters are undeterrent, but they can't be

1210
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 1: bypassed because miners can mine whatever you're filtering. Still, so

1211
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 1: I think that it's a more philosophical discussion on development. Really,

1212
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 1: the developers don't want to fight a battle against SPAN.

1213
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 1: They would rather build cool new things. So no one's

1214
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 1: working on anti spam projections in bitcoin because they think

1215
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:35,160
Speaker 1: it's a gay you can't win. And if you sit

1216
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 1: down with that on the back, I'll say, yeah, I've

1217
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 1: rationalized and reason through every single way to fight SPAN,

1218
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 1: and I've come to the conclusion that you cannot fight SPA.

1219
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: So that's why they're saying, let's let it be the

1220
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:47,440
Speaker 1: way it is. Well, you don't have to increase it

1221
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 1: to make it easier. No, you don't, And that's what

1222
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 1: these guys the Knots camp are saying. And I guess

1223
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 1: I'm also saying that you should deter it and you

1224
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 1: should fight the SPAN because let's say you're right, it's

1225
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:02,680
Speaker 1: an arms race. The people kind of have spoken, the bitcoiners.

1226
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:06,760
Speaker 1: They want arms to defend against the spam, so there

1227
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: should be is.

1228
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 2: There really spam? So let let me frame that question up.

1229
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 2: So you just said that money has changed, it's now information.

1230
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 2: A lot of people say bitcoin has no value. Well,

1231
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 2: you may not see value, but I see value. And

1232
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:28,480
Speaker 2: so then we think about free markets and we start

1233
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 2: to think about what goes into the block space, and

1234
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 2: it should be for monetary information. But what's a monetary information?

1235
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 2: It's all the information, and what information is the most valuable.

1236
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 2: So if I'm willing to pay for that information more

1237
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 2: than you're willing to pay for the information, your information

1238
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 2: might be a monetary transaction, My information might be whatever message.

1239
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:51,840
Speaker 2: I mean, shouldn't the free market just decide what goes

1240
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 2: into that Is it really spam if it's actually more

1241
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 2: valuable than monetary transaction.

1242
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 1: So this is a really interesting little conundrum we've gotten

1243
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 1: ourselves in too. So the spammers have basically said, we're

1244
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:07,760
Speaker 1: paying fees, so we're not spam. But the most important

1245
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 1: thing is spam is never from the perspective of the sender.

1246
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 1: It's from the perspective of the receiver, which in this

1247
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:16,360
Speaker 1: case is the node runner. Stuff I don't want, right,

1248
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 1: stuff I don't want I okay, let's talk about email spam.

1249
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 2: Talking about my sex message spam. Sure, every day I

1250
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 2: have approof for a new loan that didn't even apply

1251
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 2: for it.

1252
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know that guy paid for his cell

1253
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 1: phone plan and whatever, and you know he paid to

1254
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 1: send it to you. It's not spam. But you think

1255
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 1: it's spam. Yeah, a point, it's the same like physical mail,

1256
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 1: like a junk mail. They paid the postage fees. It

1257
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: not spam. Spam is always from the perspective of the receiver,

1258
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 1: and in Bitcoin's case, it's a receiver. So Jae, let's

1259
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 1: go into like is it data? So bitcoin is information,

1260
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 1: but not all information is bitcoin. If you download bitcoin

1261
01:04:56,640 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 1: the client in twenty two thousand and nine and you

1262
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 1: boot it up and you get some coins because you

1263
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 1: could mine back then on a CPU, and you send

1264
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 1: some coins to me, that's a Bitcoin transaction. If you

1265
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 1: stick a picture in there, you know that's not native

1266
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 1: behavior of bitcoin, right. So people in the core side

1267
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:21,280
Speaker 1: have said, you know, bitcoin is just a database, right,

1268
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 1: But it's a database of Bitcoin as the native data,

1269
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:28,959
Speaker 1: and you can send and receive that native Bitcoin data.

1270
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 1: But if you start sticking other things, that's not what

1271
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 1: the software was meant to do.

1272
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 2: I had never lived there from that angle, so I

1273
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 2: appreciate that perspective because to your point, I expect phone

1274
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 2: calls from people I know and want to hear from

1275
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 2: not doing lone applications every day, and it drives me

1276
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 2: crazy and up downloaded applications to build her. I can't

1277
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:49,480
Speaker 2: stop it.

1278
01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 1: So so the spamas are saying, you know, you can't

1279
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 1: censor us. It's you're wrong to censor us. But my

1280
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:57,800
Speaker 1: perspective is you shouldn't be here. Are you here in

1281
01:05:57,880 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 1: my holey or never go.

1282
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 2: Do because this this space and my mail is not scarce,

1283
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 2: but the block space is scarce. Wouldn't true monetary transactions

1284
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 2: groud about or outpright your price them out?

1285
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 1: Well, that's another argument too, like the fees are the filter.

1286
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:19,919
Speaker 1: But we've also changed the economics, like during the block

1287
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 1: size war, we increased the block size the effective block space, right,

1288
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:26,400
Speaker 1: we made we scaled the coin. We made transactions cheaper.

1289
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 1: But therefore, but we also made spam cheaper too, by

1290
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 1: a multiple And we're doing other things too, like removing

1291
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:38,959
Speaker 1: those limits that cores. Removing it makes it easier. So yes,

1292
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 1: you can say fees are the filter, but you've also

1293
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: just kind of opened the door and made it cheaper

1294
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:47,160
Speaker 1: for them to send you the sms. So yeah, a

1295
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 1: lot of dynamics have changed, and you show, you show

1296
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:55,040
Speaker 1: that you can bypass the filters. So now you kind

1297
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 1: of like showed people that were less savvy, less technical,

1298
01:06:58,560 --> 01:06:59,480
Speaker 1: that oh you can do this.

1299
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:02,240
Speaker 2: Now what about the precedents that's set that once I

1300
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 2: show that I can filter things, then the DOVERMA could say, oh,

1301
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 2: you can filter things, and I want you to filter

1302
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:10,040
Speaker 2: out these o fact knocking blind addresses. We want you

1303
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 2: to fact this out with these mixer addresses and things

1304
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 2: like that.

1305
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:16,920
Speaker 1: But you can You can't really stop it, even if

1306
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 1: you get a mining pool to sense ay, like you know, Mark,

1307
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:24,480
Speaker 1: your pool should censor these transactions, someone else will mind them. Right,

1308
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 1: The thing goes both ways. You cannot stop spam one

1309
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:32,120
Speaker 1: hundred percent, but you also cannot stop transactions one hundred

1310
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 1: percent too.

1311
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 2: So you know, I kind of fall in line with Sailor,

1312
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:43,000
Speaker 2: which is maybe the best way to ruin something is

1313
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 2: to try to fix something.

1314
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, you hear his spiel on Yeah, if I want

1315
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:50,919
Speaker 1: to destroy Big Quiet, way hire a bunch. You hire

1316
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 1: a lot of exaltators to make it better.

1317
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:54,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, make it better, yeah, not fix of the make

1318
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 2: it better right. And there was an inflation book.

1319
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,440
Speaker 1: Someone was trying to optimize bitpoint and they introduced an

1320
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 1: inflation bitcoin and that was there for two years, almost

1321
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 1: two years. So in that two year period someone could

1322
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 1: have inflated bitcoin supply.

1323
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 2: It killed it. So it seems like it's like almost

1324
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:14,160
Speaker 2: just ossify the code and if there's something critical, we

1325
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 2: could maybe see about fixing it, but like try to

1326
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:19,519
Speaker 2: make improvements of like changing the blocks. I seems out

1327
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 2: all right, So I don't want to go too long

1328
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:25,200
Speaker 2: on this, but you're in the Needer camp.

1329
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:28,719
Speaker 1: I lean more towards not. I think that there should

1330
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:32,720
Speaker 1: be efforts to fight spam. Maybe it's not winnable, but

1331
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:36,559
Speaker 1: there should be tools given to people like it. There

1332
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 1: are so many proposals for soft forks, for new features

1333
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:42,799
Speaker 1: of bitcoin. Everyone wants to do something new with bitcoin.

1334
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:45,559
Speaker 1: And it goes back to Sailor's point. You know, if

1335
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 1: you give developers unlimited resources, they're.

1336
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:49,639
Speaker 2: Going to try to build there. It's like the point

1337
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 2: I made earlier. Legislators legislate exactly, coders want to code

1338
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:57,439
Speaker 2: exactly they need to build something, but go build layer two. Yeah. Yeah,

1339
01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 2: you've been around a long time. You understand at of

1340
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:06,919
Speaker 2: deep level, what is from your perspective, your historical precedent

1341
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:09,840
Speaker 2: that you've seen set, the block sized wars that you've

1342
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:14,719
Speaker 2: went through, etc. Is this like it's a healthy reaction

1343
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 2: to the community to debate this and bindent ways around this,

1344
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:19,479
Speaker 2: or is this like one of these could be critical

1345
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:22,519
Speaker 2: and people should be like paying attention to worry about it.

1346
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:26,400
Speaker 1: I think it's good that people are discussing it and

1347
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:30,639
Speaker 1: we're bringing things up. I think having one dominant client

1348
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: is not the best thing, So I think not existing

1349
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:37,800
Speaker 1: and having twenty percent of the network is good. I

1350
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 1: think even better as you get a third implementation that's

1351
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:43,799
Speaker 1: widely adopted and then you kind of a three way balance.

1352
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:48,360
Speaker 1: It's like a triangle or separation of the powers in

1353
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 1: the government, right, So you can't force any change through

1354
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:56,080
Speaker 1: without you other two clients getting major adopting it and

1355
01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 1: getting attraction through that way. So I think that's the

1356
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:01,720
Speaker 1: best way to awsome five bitcoin. So you can't just

1357
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:04,880
Speaker 1: ram a change through, and that's largely what this is about.

1358
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 1: Like corus able to set defaults because they are the

1359
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:09,759
Speaker 1: primary dominant client.

1360
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't like that. So this might be

1361
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:18,080
Speaker 2: a healthy reaction. It's not mission critical.

1362
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 1: There is balance and you know, no one group can

1363
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 1: push something through as a default.

1364
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:26,680
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, okay, first you go on. I like that,

1365
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 2: all right, Sam, So I think we're gonna wrap it up.

1366
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 2: We covered a lot around unbanking the bank or banking.

1367
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 2: The mbad was Aqua nas to stay the adoption. I

1368
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:37,640
Speaker 2: love the bond idea and palitic So anything else that

1369
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:39,439
Speaker 2: you want to point people, what are you working on?

1370
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 2: If you're paying attention to download your wallet Aqua, give

1371
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:42,559
Speaker 2: it a try.

1372
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:45,240
Speaker 1: Check out Aqua. You can look it up on Aqua

1373
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:48,320
Speaker 1: dot net. Yeah, it's on the app store, Apple Android

1374
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:52,840
Speaker 1: and we're on X gentree Calm I have, Yeah, I'm

1375
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 1: on X two.

1376
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1377
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:54,240
Speaker 1: Cool