Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If
Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.
Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,
Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have
Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but
Speaker 2: they're breaking the lord.
Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty
Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then
Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be
Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the
Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.
Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.
Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something
Speaker 2: happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said,
Speaker 2: that could never happen to me, But.
Speaker 3: They can. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful
Speaker 3: Conviction with Jason Flamm. Today's episode is one of a
Speaker 3: kind because I have two people here who are truly
Speaker 3: one of a kind, both individually and together.
Speaker 4: Their story begins in nineteen eighty four, when Jennifer was
Speaker 4: a college student in North Carolina. A man broke into
Speaker 4: her apartment.
Speaker 5: Even as she was being raped. Jennifer summoned the strength
Speaker 5: to study her attacker. She tried to memorize his face,
Speaker 5: his eyes, his hair.
Speaker 4: Jennifer eventually escaped, eventually made her way to the police,
Speaker 4: where she used that image burned in her mind for
Speaker 4: an artist to create this sketch. That guy, she says
Speaker 4: she was one hundred percent sure about, was Ronald Cotton.
Speaker 5: Ronald Cotton was twenty two years old and worked at
Speaker 5: a seafood restaurant near Jennifer's home.
Speaker 4: Ronald went to trial Jennifer again I d'd him in court.
Speaker 4: It took a jury four hours to convict him, and
Speaker 4: a judge sentenced him till life. Eleven years went by.
Speaker 4: Cotton maintained his innocence.
Speaker 5: Scientists were able to isolate a tiny fragment of sperm
Speaker 5: that they could test. The results confirmed what he had
Speaker 5: been saying all along. The DNA did not match. On
Speaker 5: June thirtieth, nineteen ninety five, Ronald Cotton walked out of
Speaker 5: the Alamance County Courthouse a freeman.
Speaker 3: Without further ado. Ronald Cotton, Welcome to rafel conviction.
Speaker 6: Thank you pleasure to be here today.
Speaker 3: And with him is Jennifer Thompson. Welcome to raful conviction.
Speaker 7: Thank you, Jason.
Speaker 3: Let's go back to the beginning first of all, but
Speaker 3: talking about North Carolina and Jennifer's that where you grew up.
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, I grew up in Winston Sale, North Carolina.
Speaker 7: But the crime happened in Burlington, North Carolina when I
Speaker 7: was a college student.
Speaker 3: And of course it's a client that Ronald was wrongfully
Speaker 3: convicted of. But at the time it seemed like an
Speaker 3: open and shutcase. And that's one of the things that
Speaker 3: makes this story so important. Again, Let's go back to
Speaker 3: that time. You were a twenty two year old girl
Speaker 3: becoming a woman. You sort of had the world at
Speaker 3: your feet, so to speak, right, and everything to look
Speaker 3: forward to until one horrible night. Yes, and can you
Speaker 3: tell us about that night and how this all started?
Speaker 7: Sure? Sure, I had gone to bed on July twenty eighth,
Speaker 7: nineteen eighty four alone. I had had a headache that evening,
Speaker 7: so my boyfriend that I was dating at the time,
Speaker 7: we were talking about getting married, took me home. I
Speaker 7: went to sleep around nine o'clock and didn't really hear
Speaker 7: anything that was going on in the community. There was
Speaker 7: police kind of circling the neighborhood. They were looking for
Speaker 7: someone who had attempted to break into a neighbor's house.
Speaker 7: We know now that they couldn't find him because he
Speaker 7: was hiding out in my apartment. So around three am
Speaker 7: on July twenty ninth, I heard a noise in the bedroom,
Speaker 7: like feet moving across the carpet. Of course, I lived alone,
Speaker 7: and as I kind of woke up and that in
Speaker 7: between place of being awake and asleep, I saw the
Speaker 7: top of a person's head beside my mattress and I
Speaker 7: quickly asked, who was that? Who's there? And a man
Speaker 7: jumped up on my bed. I screamed. He covered my
Speaker 7: mouth with a gloved hand and put a knife to
Speaker 7: the left side of my throat and told me to
Speaker 7: shut up. He was going to kill me.
Speaker 3: It's literally a horror movie like this.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, it's a horror movie. There's several things going on, right,
Speaker 7: I mean, you're trying to figure out what's happening. It's
Speaker 7: that that place where you're you're wondering if this is
Speaker 7: a dream or this is really happening, and then you
Speaker 7: realize that you are in terrible danger. I knew, I
Speaker 7: knew that he was going to rate me. That was
Speaker 7: very clear. But what you don't know, no survivor ever knows,
Speaker 7: is was he going to kill me? And I honestly
Speaker 7: believe that I'd probably not live, that he would slip
Speaker 7: my throat, that he would, you know, beat me. And
Speaker 7: you start wondering in those moments, how quickly will I
Speaker 7: be able to die? And while I feel it as
Speaker 7: I'm dying, will it be painful? Will it you know?
Speaker 7: Will it just be quick and over with? And you
Speaker 7: start thinking about your parents, You start thinking about your future,
Speaker 7: You start thinking about the things that you're going to miss,
Speaker 7: and you you know, the things you wish you had said,
Speaker 7: and that was what was happening, and that you know
Speaker 7: that moment when when you realize that this could be
Speaker 7: the last thing that ever touches your skin.
Speaker 3: Be cliche about your whole life lashing before your eyes,
Speaker 3: It's really true, isn't it.
Speaker 7: It's really true. It's really true.
Speaker 3: And I know you've spoken about how you at that
Speaker 3: moment you made a commitment to do everything you could
Speaker 3: not only to survive, but to memorize every detail of
Speaker 3: your assailant, your attacker, your your torturer, so that you
Speaker 3: could identify him. I mean that's some very amazingly sort
Speaker 3: of clear thinking at a time of utmost terror. Right,
Speaker 3: you were a clear eyed college student. You weren't high
Speaker 3: or stoned, you hadn't been out drinking that night. You
Speaker 3: were perfect for this particular task that now lay in
Speaker 3: front of you. When this attack finally ended, And how
Speaker 3: long did it go on for?
Speaker 7: By the way, well, from the beginning of when he
Speaker 7: woke me up to when I was able to escape
Speaker 7: was probably around twenty minutes. The assault lasted probably five
Speaker 7: and I was able to talk him off of me
Speaker 7: after part of the assault had happened, because I knew
Speaker 7: that I needed to find a way to escape. But
Speaker 7: during that time, when I was trying to figure out
Speaker 7: a plan, I was able to stand close to him,
Speaker 7: to gauge his height, to gauge his weight, to remember
Speaker 7: his clothing. I mean, everything became important to me that night.
Speaker 7: And I'm glad you said task because that's exactly what
Speaker 7: was happening in my head. I was very task driven,
Speaker 7: I mean, a survive, find a way to live and
Speaker 7: be watch him rotten hell for the rest of his life.
Speaker 7: So I was making a very concerted effort to pay
Speaker 7: attention to everything even listening to his voice as he
Speaker 7: began to talk to me, trying to pick up any
Speaker 7: details that he might you know, kind of drop, and
Speaker 7: I could remember in getting myself into different positions of light.
Speaker 7: It was all, you know, part of that need to survive,
Speaker 7: and that task gave me that need and will to
Speaker 7: survive until I was able to escape after about twenty minutes.
Speaker 3: You made this amazing commitment to this process right when
Speaker 3: I think most people would have just been focused on
Speaker 3: getting out of there. Right, and if this wasn't enough
Speaker 3: of a horror movie scenario, your sailing had cut the
Speaker 3: phone line as well. Right, He had.
Speaker 7: Cut the phone line. He had been in my apartment
Speaker 7: for hours, smoking cigarettes, drinking beer out of my refrigerator.
Speaker 7: He'd stolen money out of my wallet. He'd even gone
Speaker 7: through a photo album and taken photographs of me out
Speaker 7: and actually asked permission. He said, I hope you don't mind,
Speaker 7: but I took some of the photographs of you to keep.
Speaker 7: I mean, it was it was a mental, physical torture,
Speaker 7: and you know, it was sexual assault and violence. It
Speaker 7: is a forever thing. And he changed me that night
Speaker 7: in ways that I that you know, the girl was
Speaker 7: just the girl died that night. She she was gone.
Speaker 3: You did manage to escape, obviously and run down the road,
Speaker 3: which was a very brave thing to do, not knowing
Speaker 3: you know, he could have come after you, and he
Speaker 3: did come after me.
Speaker 7: He chased me through the.
Speaker 3: Dark, unreal. But you out ran him. Is that basically
Speaker 3: how to come down?
Speaker 7: I outran. The trick for me was I knew I
Speaker 7: had to get to light, and I knew he wouldn't
Speaker 7: come under light with me. So I found a carport
Speaker 7: that was on at a house that I didn't know
Speaker 7: who lived there. I just kind of prayed that people
Speaker 7: were there, but I knew he wouldn't come underneath that
Speaker 7: carport because if someone was home, they would see him.
Speaker 7: So that kept him away from me. As I banged
Speaker 7: on the door, and fortunately the husband and wife and
Speaker 7: the family were there, and the woman recognized me. She
Speaker 7: was a professor at the college I was attending. I
Speaker 7: didn't take any of her classes, but she had seen
Speaker 7: me on campus and they let me in and basically
Speaker 7: saved my life.
Speaker 3: Well, what a story I have any words? Now, Ronald,
Speaker 3: let me turn to you for a second. So did
Speaker 3: you live in the same town I did yes. And
Speaker 3: in the days and weeks prior to your arrest, were
Speaker 3: you aware of this was this big local news?
Speaker 6: Well, I guess it was. The week before I got arrested.
Speaker 6: Me and my brother were standing on the Sweet corner
Speaker 6: and I let a newspaper, local newspaper down and in
Speaker 6: the rapper. I pulled it out the rapper on the
Speaker 6: front page and there was this SketchUp guy and it
Speaker 6: described him and showing a picture of him and instruction
Speaker 6: that he committed a crime upon this female and it
Speaker 6: was Jennifer. I didn't know Jennifer, you know. I just
Speaker 6: read the article and I told my brother then that
Speaker 6: I don't know who the guy is. But when they
Speaker 6: get him, I said, he's through, you know, he's done.
Speaker 6: And uh. Well, that following Monday, I went home from
Speaker 6: not staying in the hotel with my girlfriend, and my
Speaker 6: mother and boyfriend told me as I approached the door
Speaker 6: that the police had been looking for me, and I
Speaker 6: went down to find out for that particular crime.
Speaker 3: Now, prior to this nightmare unfolding in your life, how
Speaker 3: was your life before that? How old were you?
Speaker 6: I was about the same age. Well, I had been
Speaker 6: working at local restaurants and you know, seafood places and uh.
Speaker 6: And at the particular moment in the time, I was
Speaker 6: not working. I was unemployed. I was in the process
Speaker 6: I building that application here and there, you know, trying
Speaker 6: to become employed.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 6: But that particular time, I had been in the fast
Speaker 6: lane running the bars. And you know, I had quit
Speaker 6: school and and I was working. I was just enjoying
Speaker 6: life in general. Once my mother boyfriend instructed me that
Speaker 6: the cops were looking for me, I had walked inside
Speaker 6: the apartment. I know. It was a paper there on
Speaker 6: a television. It had named on it. So I took
Speaker 6: the paper. I read it, and instruction on it was
Speaker 6: how this individual had entered the Stompson apartment and committed
Speaker 6: to scrime upon her. And I said, no, they got
Speaker 6: the wrong guy. And some of my mother boyfriend said, well,
Speaker 6: you all gonna get it straightened out. And so I
Speaker 6: walked outside and I looked across the road and I
Speaker 6: noticed my neighbor Patricia was standing on the front board sweeping,
Speaker 6: and I walked over and asked her to bought her
Speaker 6: car to drive down the police apartment and see what's
Speaker 6: going on in this matter. I said, well, I take
Speaker 6: my sister Tuoty with me just in case they locked
Speaker 6: me up, and that way she can bring your car back.
Speaker 6: So on our way there, we buried off and went
Speaker 6: by my girlfriend Teresa's place, and she come running to
Speaker 6: the car and crying, holling Ryan and Ron the police
Speaker 6: been over here looking for you, saying that you rate
Speaker 6: this woman. And she said, I know you didn't. I said, no,
Speaker 6: I did not. I said, baby, we're all getting ready
Speaker 6: to go to the police department right now and trying
Speaker 6: to get this minter taken care of. So I want
Speaker 6: to ride. So we all hopped in the car and
Speaker 6: went down and pulled in the parking lot. I exited
Speaker 6: the car. I was approaching the police apartment and I
Speaker 6: looked up. You know, it was about two three stories high,
Speaker 6: and the older cops that was I saw him looking
Speaker 6: at the window. Rush away from the wonder and run
Speaker 6: downstairs and met me at the door. And out the
Speaker 6: door pops Mike Golden, and uh, he saidthing detected, Mike Goldan.
Speaker 6: I said, yes, I heard you. I've been looking for
Speaker 6: me for a crime in the community that I need committed.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 6: He said, well, come on inside and let's talk. About it,
Speaker 6: and uh, you know, trying to get this thing worked out.
Speaker 6: So I went inside and the alibi that I gave
Speaker 6: them was totally different, because you know, I parted a
Speaker 6: lot and I wasn't keeping up with everything.
Speaker 3: So how long after the actual crime was this taking place?
Speaker 6: Augustry? First?
Speaker 7: Three days?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Oh, sub short time.
Speaker 6: Augustr first around about twelve thirty, and we went upstairs
Speaker 6: and they began to ask me a question about Jennifer.
Speaker 6: You want They ended, I want in this woman apartment,
Speaker 6: committed all the acts un her, and I said, I
Speaker 6: kept telling him, no, I did not. I said, my
Speaker 6: reason for coming down here, for trying to get this
Speaker 6: matter taken care of. And then the police chief he
Speaker 6: told me that, yeah, I took a flashlight and held
Speaker 6: it in a woman's facing rape, which I was I said,
Speaker 6: I convict him. Happened that night as well. I told him, Noah,
Speaker 6: I said, you got me wrong. You know I did
Speaker 6: not commit this crime. He said yeah, he said, you
Speaker 6: think you missed the big stuff going around town swim
Speaker 6: white women. I said, sir, you're totally wrong. I did
Speaker 6: not commit these crimes. Then they was instructed to take
Speaker 6: me in a room and lock me up, you know,
Speaker 6: photograph me, fangle print me, and they took me down
Speaker 6: to that Damans County jail, put mine one hundred and
Speaker 6: fifty thousand dollars bail.
Speaker 3: And there was no way you could post that.
Speaker 6: No, I was there ontil due date.
Speaker 3: A trial actually didn't walk out for eleven years. Yes,
Speaker 3: I mean that night you spent in the motel was
Speaker 3: the last night you spent as a free man. Yes,
Speaker 3: until this whole thing was finally resolved all those years later. So, Jennifer,
Speaker 3: you had now seen his picture see Royn's picture in
Speaker 3: a photo array, and you had identified him, and now
Speaker 3: they had him under arrest, so you must have felt
Speaker 3: a huge sense of relief I did.
Speaker 7: I mean, there had been another rape immediately after mine,
Speaker 7: and we knew it was the same person. An hour later,
Speaker 7: a mile down the road, there's another woman who's assaulted,
Speaker 7: and I felt that we had a serial rapist in
Speaker 7: the community and he needed to be removed. So yes,
Speaker 7: I thought a huge sense of relief after I knew
Speaker 7: that he had been arrested and of course would be
Speaker 7: held over for probable cause and we would go to trial,
Speaker 7: which became a next task.
Speaker 3: How did they know that it was the same person.
Speaker 7: It was a description of the clothing. Both of us
Speaker 7: had said that the person who had attacked us had
Speaker 7: had on a navy blue shirt with three white stripes
Speaker 7: that went along as biceps. He had on khaki tight pants.
Speaker 7: He had white gloves that were knit. I mean, both
Speaker 7: of us had the same exact description. And as he
Speaker 7: was running from the second rape survivor, police were being called,
Speaker 7: and he actually passed the police, so there was a
Speaker 7: police that actually got a short glimpse of the assailants,
Speaker 7: so we knew it was the same person. It was
Speaker 7: the same person who had attempted to break into the
Speaker 7: woman before me, because she had said the same thing
Speaker 7: and arm was coming through her door, blew shirt with
Speaker 7: white stripes, nick gloves. She just happened to be awake
Speaker 7: and called the police. So he never assaulted the first woman.
Speaker 3: The other woman who was raped, Was she involved in
Speaker 3: this process in any way? Did they show her the
Speaker 3: same photo array and if so, did she identify ron
Speaker 3: as well?
Speaker 7: They did show her the same array, and she was
Speaker 7: much older than me. And during her assault, he hit
Speaker 7: her and bitter and put a flashlight in her eyes
Speaker 7: and put a pillow on her face when he raped her,
Speaker 7: So she was not able to get the same kind
Speaker 7: of description and details that I was able to get.
Speaker 7: And so when she went to the photographic lineup and
Speaker 7: physical lineup, she wasn't sure. She said that I think
Speaker 7: it's number four, but it could be number five. And
Speaker 7: so the district attorney made the decision to not try
Speaker 7: the cases together, that they would only try my case
Speaker 7: because basically they had a better conviction with just my identification.
Speaker 3: Right again, yours was perfect, seemingly right right.
Speaker 7: I literally was called the perfect witness.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you're in prison. You're getting some sleep now,
Speaker 3: hopefully by not really, where were you staying, by the way,
Speaker 3: when this rapist was still on the loose.
Speaker 7: I was staying about three miles off campus in a
Speaker 7: condominium complex.
Speaker 3: But you didn't stay in your own apartment after this?
Speaker 7: Oh no, I never returned, just only for my things.
Speaker 7: And you know, again, the thing about being an assault
Speaker 7: survivor is when when you're broken, like I was broken,
Speaker 7: you can't ever return to that place that you were before.
Speaker 7: And I talk to people, your lens that you look
Speaker 7: at through the world becomes distorted and everything you choose
Speaker 7: becomes seen through that distortion. Your place in the world
Speaker 7: is now distorted. What value do I have?
Speaker 6: You know?
Speaker 7: Where do you go from here? Because who you were
Speaker 7: before is no longer an option and it's now trying
Speaker 7: to recreate this new person. But you have no support.
Speaker 7: So people didn't want to hang out with me. My
Speaker 7: family wouldn't talk to me about it. My boyfriend said
Speaker 7: he just couldn't handle it, so he broke up with me.
Speaker 7: I mean, literally everything in my world was gone, and
Speaker 7: your task now with trying to somehow recover. And I
Speaker 7: use that like with a big sigh, because it is
Speaker 7: a forever recovery. It's just as long as you live,
Speaker 7: you're still in recovery.
Speaker 3: It's hard for me to adam how those particular people
Speaker 3: who were so close and intimate with you made exactly
Speaker 3: the wrong choice ron back to you. So you are
Speaker 3: in crazyland now, right because you can't possibly understand I
Speaker 3: imagine why this is happening. And now all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: you find yourself in the situation that you had just
Speaker 3: been discussing with your brother, right, you had just predicted
Speaker 3: your own fate actually right, because you had said, whoever
Speaker 3: they get well of this guy's going down whatever, right,
Speaker 3: that's right, and now it's you. The day of the
Speaker 3: trial comes. How long had you been held by then?
Speaker 6: About four months?
Speaker 3: Four months, so you had been in for quite a while.
Speaker 3: And the jail. I don't know how that jail was,
Speaker 3: but we know that a lot of the jails in
Speaker 3: America are even worse and even more dangerous and scary
Speaker 3: than the maximum security prisons. Was this jail one of those?
Speaker 6: I wasn't one of those. Just a lot of guys
Speaker 6: talking jump and you know, if you wanted to make
Speaker 6: a stand, you know, you took a chance, you know.
Speaker 3: So, Jennifer back to you. So the day of the
Speaker 3: trial comes, you're there hoping to get some closure, right.
Speaker 7: Well yeah, closure is such an interesting part. Well yeah,
Speaker 7: I mean you're looking for justice, is what you're looking for.
Speaker 7: And that's what I was looking for. I was looking
Speaker 7: for him to be held responsible for what he had
Speaker 7: done to not just me, but the other woman who
Speaker 7: wasn't going to be able to tell her story and
Speaker 7: other women who could never find justice. So it was
Speaker 7: like kind of this thing I needed, I really needed
Speaker 7: it to move to the next place of my life.
Speaker 7: And the trial was over, two weeks long.
Speaker 3: Wow, Yeah, that's a long trial. I'm actually surprised it
Speaker 3: was that long. But by now you had identified ron
Speaker 3: in a photo array and in a lineup, and it's
Speaker 3: important to highlight the fact that he was the only
Speaker 3: person that was featured in both the photo array and
Speaker 3: the lineup that is correct, which is obviously going to
Speaker 3: have some impact on your perception, your memory, right.
Speaker 7: And of course what we know now is that the
Speaker 7: perpetrator was never in any of the lineups.
Speaker 3: So it seems like they did what they could in
Speaker 3: a very imperfect system to try to be in harshall.
Speaker 3: Was that accurate?
Speaker 6: Not?
Speaker 7: Really. They had thought before I went down to do
Speaker 7: the photographic lineup, they had believed that Ronald Cotton had
Speaker 7: actually committed these crimes. So during the first lineup, which
Speaker 7: was the photographic lineup and what they call six pack,
Speaker 7: and I had been given some instructions to take my time,
Speaker 7: not feel compelled to choose anyone, which was pretty modern
Speaker 7: thinking in nineteen.
Speaker 3: Eighty four, right, that's what I was referraing.
Speaker 7: Yeah, but when I picked Ronald out of the photographs,
Speaker 7: they did tell me, good job. That's who we thought
Speaker 7: it was. Of course, what we know now is that
Speaker 7: just gave my certainty that confirmation I needed, and boy,
Speaker 7: my certainty went out the roof once they said that
Speaker 7: to me, Ronald Cotton, that photo became the rapist.
Speaker 3: And we were dealing in this case with a cross
Speaker 3: racial identification, which we know are the least reliable of
Speaker 3: all the different forms of I would identification. It's been
Speaker 3: proven in every study that's ever been done just how
Speaker 3: unreliable I woulds identification is. And we know that it
Speaker 3: goes up in cases in which either the victim or
Speaker 3: the witness is in mortal danger, which you certainly were.
Speaker 3: Of course, it triggers all sorts of chemical reactions in
Speaker 3: your brain, which in turn caused your memory to play
Speaker 3: tricks on you. It's odd, right, you were the perfect witness,
Speaker 3: but it was also the perfect storm because you had
Speaker 3: this particular case, had all of those factors right, You
Speaker 3: had again the cross racial identification problem, you had the
Speaker 3: mortal fear problem, for lack of better the weapon focus, right,
Speaker 3: that's the best term for it. And so what should
Speaker 3: have been really an open and shut case was anything but.
Speaker 3: But we didn't know that at the time.
Speaker 7: Now, we thought we were doing things best practices at
Speaker 7: that time in nineteen eighty four.
Speaker 3: We know now that it all went horribly wrong, and
Speaker 3: so you now had identified him in the photo array
Speaker 3: and in the lineup. You were given a positive reinforcement
Speaker 3: in both of those cases. Now the day the trial
Speaker 3: comes and you're asked to identify the perpetrator in the courtroom, Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's great.
Speaker 7: I was on the stand for two days Jesus having
Speaker 7: to just over and over and over again talk about
Speaker 7: what had been done to me, well literally over and
Speaker 7: over again, in front of my family, in front of strangers.
Speaker 7: I mean, it was really awful. And then the rape survivor,
Speaker 7: so the defense attorney is beginning to assassinate my character,
Speaker 7: basically blaming me for inviting my own rape because I
Speaker 7: had the audacity to go to bed that night in
Speaker 7: just my underwear, and so didn't I know that's what
Speaker 7: led people to rape women. And so there's a lot
Speaker 7: of things happening.
Speaker 3: What are you supposed to wear a coat of armor?
Speaker 7: Well that was my point. My point to the defense
Speaker 7: attorney was basically, so if I had gone to bed
Speaker 7: in a sweatsuit, and he would have looked at me
Speaker 7: and said at I don't think, so it's just too
Speaker 7: much trouble, is that what you're saying to me? And
Speaker 7: of course it shut that down immediately. But I was
Speaker 7: so angry. I was so angry that somehow me going
Speaker 7: to bed as a twenty two year old woman and
Speaker 7: my underwear had been the cost of my own sexual assault. Yeah,
Speaker 7: that's not And of course it didn't help ron honestly
Speaker 7: with a jury. The jury was really angry at the
Speaker 7: defense attorney for even suggesting that. So there were some
Speaker 7: things that.
Speaker 3: Happened that must have made you feel uncomfortable to ron
Speaker 3: to have that line of questioning. I mean, here's this
Speaker 3: woman that you've never met, that you don't know what
Speaker 3: happened or why you're in this situation that you're in.
Speaker 3: You're four months and five months in jail, whatever it was,
Speaker 3: So your head's fitting around in all different directions, right,
Speaker 3: and now you know your own team is acting in
Speaker 3: a way that I can't imagine you would ever act.
Speaker 3: The whole situation is just wrong, and ultimately you're asked
Speaker 3: to make a positive identification. And what happens.
Speaker 7: I looked straight over at Ronald and I said, he's
Speaker 7: sitting at the defense table as the man who raped me,
Speaker 7: and the jury deliberated four hours and came back with,
Speaker 7: of course, a guilty verdict on all charges.
Speaker 3: And what was that moment, like Ron, I mean, that
Speaker 3: had to be the worst moment of your life.
Speaker 6: I just couldn't believe it. You know, I just shook
Speaker 6: my head. You know, I looked at my atturneys and
Speaker 6: I looked I recollect the judge and the foreman and
Speaker 6: the jewels and Kurt reporter, and once a verdict was
Speaker 6: read from the jeurid form, I just I said, no,
Speaker 6: that's what I'm saying to myself. I said, they have
Speaker 6: it wrong. And so the judge I said, if I
Speaker 6: had anything to say to the court, and I said yes.
Speaker 6: I told him that I would like to have this
Speaker 6: permission to sing a song that I have written in jail.
Speaker 6: And so I stood up and I sang the song.
Speaker 6: And as I was singing that song, you know my
Speaker 6: turn is, you know, they saying with the head dropped,
Speaker 6: you know, as if though I put him the shame.
Speaker 6: But I didn't care anything at that particular time because
Speaker 6: I had just been found guilty for crime or did
Speaker 6: not commit and.
Speaker 3: You sang a song. Can you sing it now.
Speaker 6: Yeah, if I can remember word for word, I'll try
Speaker 6: to anyway. It was a boem written to my girlfriend,
Speaker 6: but I changed the words and wrote a gospel song. Whatever,
Speaker 6: and they want something like this. The sit insa I
Speaker 6: can know no longer me because my future so one
Speaker 6: down to me.
Speaker 3: And then.
Speaker 6: I could no longer say he.
Speaker 8: Because during that day I wonder at not a heard
Speaker 8: with fear call his name, suddenly tears appear.
Speaker 9: Until God came in my life. Until God came in
Speaker 9: my life, I was often alone and people I really conface.
Speaker 9: I just didn't know what to do before I feel
Speaker 9: so wild a place. How many time as I say
Speaker 9: this before you agree, there's no other God whoever loved
Speaker 9: of you, not quite as much as Lord God. Believe me, everyone,
Speaker 9: because God will change your life. And that is a fire,
Speaker 9: because I will pave of night and day until you.
Speaker 6: God, oh bye.
Speaker 3: To me.
Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, hey, all those words too. I just don't
Speaker 7: sound like that.
Speaker 3: Oh God, that's beautiful. Your life is literally coming to
Speaker 3: an end, and then you get up and sing a
Speaker 3: damn song. Unbelievable. Now things start to get crazier because
Speaker 3: you're in prison. What steps did you take and what
Speaker 3: hope did you have?
Speaker 6: Well, I had uh entered the prison system with life
Speaker 6: in fifty four year prison term. Immediately they pointed me
Speaker 6: a guidance counselor in the prison and I went in
Speaker 6: and met him, took tests, talked with him about my
Speaker 6: being in prison, and uh, you know the crime that
Speaker 6: I was in there for, but he said, we're not
Speaker 6: here for that, We're here to keep So you know,
Speaker 6: I know it was a lost couse I was fighting,
Speaker 6: and so it was all upon me to do what
Speaker 6: I had to do to survive, and that was to
Speaker 6: stay in contact with my trial lawyers, which still continued
Speaker 6: to fight my case on a pill.
Speaker 3: So you actually had a competent attorney in this case. Yes,
Speaker 3: it would have needed OJ's dream team, and you probably
Speaker 3: might have still gotten convicted. I don't I don't know
Speaker 3: that there's a lawyer on this planet that could have
Speaker 3: gotten you out of this.
Speaker 6: Now, I was fighting a lost court, but you know
Speaker 6: it was a battle field that I was in that
Speaker 6: I couldn't give up. Uh, you know. Immediately, you know,
Speaker 6: I put myself in the school, I buried the central
Speaker 6: prison and start filing motions from inside the prison and
Speaker 6: which didn't do any good at all. And so one
Speaker 6: day I was on my way to the gym to
Speaker 6: work out, and I recognized this inmate being escorted inside
Speaker 6: the prison, and he looked very familiar to me, So
Speaker 6: I started thinking. I said, I saw this guy before,
Speaker 6: you know, as I'm walking, and I went on continued
Speaker 6: that process of working out, and I went back to
Speaker 6: my dorm that night. You know, they had him finished
Speaker 6: processing him inside the prison, and I went to him
Speaker 6: the next day as I recognized him from being outside
Speaker 6: in the recreation yard. I was playing a handball game
Speaker 6: I was in and immediately I had someone to come
Speaker 6: and relieve me from that game, and I made an
Speaker 6: approach on him and I asked him where was he from,
Speaker 6: and he told me he was from Burleton of Cardine also,
Speaker 6: and I said, well, you look like they're drawing up
Speaker 6: from part of the schedule rap that was committed in
Speaker 6: Burlton that I'm in prison for. That you commit the crime,
Speaker 6: And immediately he told me no, he did not, but
Speaker 6: you just had a feeling. Yes, I had to feel,
Speaker 6: because he resembled to drawing. You know, I had to
Speaker 6: cut it out the local newspaper because I had my
Speaker 6: hands from the newspaper in the count of jail, and
Speaker 6: I cut it out and put it in my possession.
Speaker 3: Now, finally destiny. So that throws you a bone, right,
Speaker 3: because this guy, if he hadn't come to your prison,
Speaker 3: you wouldn't have had any idea if you had to
Speaker 3: cross paths with him at that particular time, you might
Speaker 3: not have had that same feeling, that instinct that you had.
Speaker 6: Right, that is correct.
Speaker 3: But here he goes and he denies it. You have
Speaker 3: this instinct, this feeling. It turns out he's from the
Speaker 3: same town. He denies it. So you're basically back where
Speaker 3: you started. Accept it. Now you're under the same roof
Speaker 3: with the guy who's responsible for destroying both of your lives.
Speaker 3: But there's nothing you can really do about it. But
Speaker 3: that all changed one day as a result of a
Speaker 3: conversation that you had with another inmate, right, And can
Speaker 3: you tell us how that started, because this is a
Speaker 3: really amazing part of the story.
Speaker 6: Well, this guy, he began to lust after me in prison.
Speaker 6: I told him one night as I was in a shower,
Speaker 6: you know, I was washing my hair and shallow curtain
Speaker 6: I heard slide, So I lifted up my hair because
Speaker 6: I had an e f ro at the time, and
Speaker 6: he was standing out lust and you know, telling me
Speaker 6: what a beautiful body I had, And I told him
Speaker 6: I'm not trying to hear that need to keep moving,
Speaker 6: you know, and he kept on. I said, well, I'm
Speaker 6: not gonna want to try to fight a guy, you know,
Speaker 6: in the nude. You know, I might slip and fallow
Speaker 6: my head, you know, bump on the floor or something,
Speaker 6: getting knocked out unconscious, and you know, got do me in.
Speaker 6: So I just chilled. And the next day I was
Speaker 6: in the gym shooting pool a guy from Greensboro named Roger.
Speaker 6: He told me to cott now Kenny and the kids
Speaker 6: and talking junk about you, you know, And I said, well,
Speaker 6: I'm tired of this stuff. I'm gonna get this man
Speaker 6: straightened out right now. So I'm hand in my pool
Speaker 6: stick and I chug a log up to the kitchen.
Speaker 6: He was in the parking paying the area with his
Speaker 6: back turn. When I approached. I stopped so many feet
Speaker 6: from him and I called his name out and he
Speaker 6: turned around he said yeah. I said, look, man, you've
Speaker 6: been talking junk about me for so many months. I'm
Speaker 6: tired of it. You let my name taste like crap
Speaker 6: in your mouth. And he proached me and said you
Speaker 6: better get up my face for I kill you. He
Speaker 6: put his hand on me and I said, oh, you
Speaker 6: want to fight, right, I said, okay, let's go. So
Speaker 6: he walked around in the corner and get off a camera,
Speaker 6: you know, and we falled and I ended up breaking
Speaker 6: his jaw and put them down, and you know, and
Speaker 6: they got bou off of him, and he goes to
Speaker 6: surrogation and I do not because you know, they prism
Speaker 6: stewards in the kitchen had heard me telling this guy
Speaker 6: to leave me alone. So you know, they they got
Speaker 6: on my side. And so he went the hole for
Speaker 6: thirty days. And after thirty days he come out. I
Speaker 6: was sating in my dorm. I was sitting in the corner.
Speaker 6: Come my bump was in a corner wall. I kept
Speaker 6: three chairs lining up along the wall. And he walked
Speaker 6: up to the window and he said cott and I
Speaker 6: said yeah. He said, let me holler at you man.
Speaker 6: I told him come on. Then you know, he comes
Speaker 6: in my dorm and I told him to have a seat.
Speaker 6: He sit down and he span he said, I'm sorry
Speaker 6: to fight you. He said, you're fighting, dude, And I said, no,
Speaker 6: I'm just not gonna go for that bull, you know.
Speaker 6: So he said, I apologize. I just wanted to become
Speaker 6: your friend. I said, well, becoming a friend and don't
Speaker 6: approach me in that way. And he said, well, I
Speaker 6: just want to tell you that mister Poole told me
Speaker 6: that he committed the crime you in prison for. And
Speaker 6: I said, well, thank you. And so he gets up
Speaker 6: and he walks off. And so later that night, I
Speaker 6: go to my locker and I put out my legal
Speaker 6: pad and a pen, and I set up about two
Speaker 6: o'clock in the morning, and I wrote my lawd your
Speaker 6: feel most and I told him what had been told
Speaker 6: to me. And so a week or two went by,
Speaker 6: he wrote me back and instructed me, well, then we're
Speaker 6: gonna look into it, you know, but right now we
Speaker 6: got to go through the process of the pills. And so, uh,
Speaker 6: I just went head on. And about the next week
Speaker 6: mister Poole approached me. He said, cause he worked, he
Speaker 6: got a job in the kitchen as well. He said that. Uh,
Speaker 6: he said, I know you got a lot of sisters, man. Uh,
Speaker 6: he said, why don't you let me write one of
Speaker 6: your sisters. I said, what, I don't normally let guys
Speaker 6: in prison write my sisters. And uh, I said, but
Speaker 6: with view two with exception I consider. I said, but
Speaker 6: first of all we have to do I said, we
Speaker 6: have to take a photograph together. And uh, I a
Speaker 6: letter and I sent it to my sister. I said,
Speaker 6: she see what you look like. She'll write your back.
Speaker 6: If she doesn't, I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker 6: And so we took the photograph. Anyway, I didn't send
Speaker 6: that letter to my sister. I sent it to my lawyer.
Speaker 6: He liked what he saw, Yeah, that it really got
Speaker 6: the ball kind of rolling. Well. I was transferred on
Speaker 6: through the prison and I ended up in Mason, Tennessee,
Speaker 6: and I wrote the quartover ap pills from there, you know,
Speaker 6: by listening to the OJ trial, you know, I took
Speaker 6: my legal paths shot taking notes on the DNA and
Speaker 6: when I felt I had enough evident and information written
Speaker 6: down on my legal paths, I said, well, it's time
Speaker 6: for me to write to the Court of Appills and
Speaker 6: Requests for this DNA test. So once I wrote the
Speaker 6: letter and send it out, Tiger Harner from Raleigh. He
Speaker 6: wrote me a letter and told me that. He said,
Speaker 6: you got a good case. The pills caught we Uh,
Speaker 6: he said, they turn it down, but we're gonna continue
Speaker 6: looking at it. So he forwarded my letter to law
Speaker 6: school at UNC, and wasn't long after that they wrote
Speaker 6: me a letter from the legislator, I mean the lawyer,
Speaker 6: and he told me, I said that Cotton. Uh, we're
Speaker 6: gonna do your request and send you and you have
Speaker 6: a DNA done. They didn't send me to do it,
Speaker 6: but they're gonna have it done. Said, we'll do your
Speaker 6: DNA testing, but if the tests come back stating that
Speaker 6: you committed to scribe, you're gonna spend the rest of
Speaker 6: your life in prison. What do you want us to do?
Speaker 6: I didn't hesitate for one moment. I immediately I sent
Speaker 6: a letter back out do the test, because come back
Speaker 6: stating anything other than innocent, guilty, realant, I said, because
Speaker 6: I'm an innocent man, I said, the Good Lord knows them.
Speaker 6: I know in my heart that I did not commit
Speaker 6: the scribe.
Speaker 3: Jennifer, were you aware of this, any of this stuff
Speaker 3: going on at this time?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 7: Not at that time, and we had gone through a
Speaker 7: second trial nineteen eighty seven.
Speaker 3: Did Bobbypool to fight that trial.
Speaker 7: Well, in nineteen eighty seven, they had told me that
Speaker 7: there was this new name out there, Bobby Pool, that
Speaker 7: you know, Ronald had been claiming that he had confessed
Speaker 7: to it. But don't worry about it. We know that
Speaker 7: we have the right guy. So in the second trial
Speaker 7: they brought Bobby Pool into the courtroom under wardeer. They
Speaker 7: had removed the jury, so the jury never knew about
Speaker 7: Bobby Pool. And of course in the court Bobby Pool
Speaker 7: denied it, said he had never said anything, he didn't
Speaker 7: commit the crime. And by that point three years had
Speaker 7: gone by and there was no memory of Bobby Pool
Speaker 7: in my head or the second survivor who was in
Speaker 7: the courtroom, and both of us said that we did
Speaker 7: not recognize Bobby Pool. And then we were asked again,
Speaker 7: did we see the person in the courtroom who had
Speaker 7: raped us? And we both pointed out Ronald Cotton. So
Speaker 7: you go to put your life back together again as
Speaker 7: best as you can. You know, life moves on. I
Speaker 7: had gotten married, I had gotten pregnant, I gave birth
Speaker 7: to triplets the spring of nineteen ninety I had two
Speaker 7: little girls and a baby boy. And by you know,
Speaker 7: nineteen ninety five, my babies. I have three five year olds,
Speaker 7: and I'm busy. You know, I'm a busy mama.
Speaker 3: I'm halfway surprised you even showed up with a child, because,
Speaker 3: I mean, you said you were busy, and you were
Speaker 3: absolutely certain that the justice had already been done. Why
Speaker 3: would you even want to go back that you weren't
Speaker 3: forced to come back, were you? No?
Speaker 7: But you want to make sure that the person that
Speaker 7: you think tried to kill you stays in prison, all right,
Speaker 7: So you have a vested interest in this.
Speaker 3: So you were there not to learn anything but to
Speaker 3: reaffirm what you already knew, and to you know, make
Speaker 3: sure that nothing went wrong and that he was ever
Speaker 3: free to prey on anybody else.
Speaker 7: Absolutely absolutely, And you know, by ninety five, when they
Speaker 7: came to me and said that there was this thing
Speaker 7: called post conviction DNA testing, something I had never heard of.
Speaker 7: I knew what DNA was, but I had never heard
Speaker 7: the word exoneration or wrongful convictions. It wasn't part of
Speaker 7: my life. It wasn't part of my story.
Speaker 3: It wasn't really part of anybody.
Speaker 7: It wasn't it was really it wasn't anybody's story at
Speaker 7: that point we're talking about nineteen eighty five. But my
Speaker 7: blood from the rape kit had dissolved and sintegrated after
Speaker 7: those eleven years, and at some point the courts would
Speaker 7: probably require me to give a new blood sample. And
Speaker 7: I said to them, I said, you know, I've got
Speaker 7: five year old triplets, and I'm busy, and I'm a
Speaker 7: mama now, and that's my job and that's what I
Speaker 7: want to do. So I went to the lab that
Speaker 7: day and I had my doctor take blood, put it
Speaker 7: in a vial, give it straight to the ADA and
Speaker 7: Mike Golden, who now was captain of the Burlington Police Department,
Speaker 7: and I said, run the test because I can't do
Speaker 7: this anymore.
Speaker 3: And then and then we had hit the.
Speaker 7: Fan pretty yeah much. I mean it was three months later,
Speaker 7: which in legal time, three months is like two seconds lightning.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, probably not when you're in prison.
Speaker 7: Not when you're in prison. But you know, some of
Speaker 7: these tests take years and years years, and this one
Speaker 7: was three months. And they came to my house and
Speaker 7: told me that the DNA had completely excluded Ronald Cotton
Speaker 7: but had been a direct hit on Bobby Pool.
Speaker 3: You you must have been florid.
Speaker 7: It was one of the worst days of my life.
Speaker 3: I'm getting the shells done. So when they told you this,
Speaker 3: did you immediately realize that, in fact, this was true
Speaker 3: and that you had been wrong all this time?
Speaker 7: Well? I think what happened for me was part of
Speaker 7: my degree had been science. So I understood DNA like
Speaker 7: I understood DYNA in relation to human memory. I got
Speaker 7: that that human memory is fallible. DNA was pretty dang
Speaker 7: spot on. I understood it like I understood that Ronald
Speaker 7: was now going to be exonerated, understood that Bobbypool had
Speaker 7: committed all these crimes, that a mistake had been made.
Speaker 7: The best I can say is it's like the earth
Speaker 7: opened up and it swallowed me, and everything became black
Speaker 7: and dark, and I dissolved. I felt paralyzed. I felt
Speaker 7: like I couldn't breathe. I couldn't function. I mean, you know,
Speaker 7: I try to talk about this in terms of I
Speaker 7: could do my day to day things like I could
Speaker 7: make a peanut butter sandwich, and I could put the
Speaker 7: clothes from the washer into the dryer. But I couldn't function.
Speaker 7: And when it got quiet and I was left by myself,
Speaker 7: I just was debilitated with fear and guilt. It just
Speaker 7: suffocated me and I stopped functioning for two years, two years,
Speaker 7: two years. I just couldn't got in, you know, what
Speaker 7: to do.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 7: There's nobody was talking about these issues. Nobody was even
Speaker 7: talking to me about rape and what happened to me,
Speaker 7: but they really weren't talking about wrongful convictions. And I
Speaker 7: had nobody to turn to. There was nobody for me
Speaker 7: to talk to. You know, Ronald was on the Larry
Speaker 7: King Show and in People magazine, and I understood that,
Speaker 7: like I understood that, but there was nobody that cared
Speaker 7: about me. And not only did they not care about me,
Speaker 7: but they were blaming me right.
Speaker 3: And that's a crazy phenomenon too.
Speaker 6: It happens to.
Speaker 7: All of our crime survivors. We get blamed for something
Speaker 7: that should never have been our fault. Like we're the
Speaker 7: first person harmed. There is someone to blame, it's the perpetrator.
Speaker 7: Because not only did Bobby Poole destroy my life and
Speaker 7: the second survivor, but he sat there and watched an
Speaker 7: innocent man go to prison, and he committed over two
Speaker 7: dozen other crimes that fall of nineteen eighty four, in
Speaker 7: the spring of nineteen eighty five, before he was ever apprehended.
Speaker 7: He raped many women, sexually assaulted them, broke into their homes,
Speaker 7: terrorized them for months, and yet somehow the media and
Speaker 7: the general public felt that it was okay to bludgeon
Speaker 7: me to a bloody pulp for something that was never
Speaker 7: my fault. Like, there's no survivor in the world that
Speaker 7: wants to get this wrong. No, no, we want the
Speaker 7: person to go to prison who committed the crimes against
Speaker 7: us or murdered our families. Nobody wants to get this wrong.
Speaker 7: I mean, it was wrong, but it wasn't my fault.
Speaker 7: It was just Jason for me to explain. I mean,
Speaker 7: I got death threats, people who would say people who
Speaker 7: said to me, if I find her, I will kidnap her,
Speaker 7: I will rape her, I will slit her throat from
Speaker 7: ear to ear, and I will watch her die and
Speaker 7: bleed to death in a ditch lock.
Speaker 3: Is that all about, I mean, blaming me.
Speaker 7: For something that was never my fault, something that Ron
Speaker 7: didn't even blame me for.
Speaker 3: Well, then that's a very very important part of the story, obviously.
Speaker 3: I mean, the grace of this man who's sitting in
Speaker 3: front of us is impossible to exaggerate or describe accurately,
Speaker 3: And we'll get to that part of the story in
Speaker 3: a second. But yeah, it's so it's so bizarre because
Speaker 3: now you've got to deal with the guilt of having
Speaker 3: convicted an innocent man, which I know has such a
Speaker 3: profound effect on you and still does. And also the
Speaker 3: idea that you were now in a situation where you
Speaker 3: had not done the thing that was most important to you,
Speaker 3: which was to correctly identify your assailant, which led to
Speaker 3: these terrible outcomes for all these other women. It seems
Speaker 3: like to me, like every where you look, it's just bad.
Speaker 7: Well, first of all, I want to make sure everybody
Speaker 7: understands that I did not.
Speaker 3: Convict Ronald count Well, you can't convict anybody.
Speaker 7: Exactly, I mean, but that's something that gets narrated in
Speaker 7: a way that is not right. Like the state of
Speaker 7: North Carolina indicted Ronald and press charges and convicted Ronald.
Speaker 7: Jennifer Thompson had no power to convict anybody. Did I
Speaker 7: pick Ronald out of a lineup?
Speaker 3: I did?
Speaker 7: And I can explain to you how those kind of
Speaker 7: things happen, how memory kind of contaminates itself over time.
Speaker 7: But there was no way for me to adequately explain
Speaker 7: what was happening to me. For the exonery and their families,
Speaker 7: an overturning of a conviction is the day they've been
Speaker 7: praying for. Is that they're happy ending for a crime survivor,
Speaker 7: for murder victim, family member who thought that the system
Speaker 7: had given them justice, which is what they promised to
Speaker 7: do for a victim, and find out that the system
Speaker 7: had failed to give me justice. It had failed my family,
Speaker 7: it had failed Ronald, it had failed Ronald's family, it
Speaker 7: had failed the other women in the community. I have
Speaker 7: not come up with a word yet that can actually
Speaker 7: explain what that looks like and what that feels like
Speaker 7: for those of us they get impacted, except it is
Speaker 7: an additional nightmare. So for Ronald, he's home, he's with
Speaker 7: his family. They've supported him, they're embracing him. The community
Speaker 7: is celebrating this man who comes back to freedom, and rightly,
Speaker 7: so that's exactly what should be happening. The crime survivor
Speaker 7: should be cared for as well. And I've talked to
Speaker 7: lots of police and prosecutors in training and talking about
Speaker 7: these things, and they'll come up to me at the end,
Speaker 7: and they say, you know, oh my god, I totally
Speaker 7: forgot about the victim in these cases. And it shocked
Speaker 7: me because for every wrongful conviction.
Speaker 3: There's a victim, right, and even if that victim is
Speaker 3: someone who was killed, that there's a family, and we are.
Speaker 7: Ignored and we are placed aside and our harm is
Speaker 7: not validated. And then on top of it, the media
Speaker 7: places to blame and says things such as rape survivor
Speaker 7: falsely accuses innocent man and sends him to prison not once,
Speaker 7: but twice. And there's everything wrong with that sentence.
Speaker 3: Right, as if you were doing it deliberately, that this was.
Speaker 7: To kill a mockingbird, and I was just making.
Speaker 3: Up a story, right, And so then the most amazing
Speaker 3: part of this story, I would say, the positive part
Speaker 3: starts right, which is Jennifer reaches out, and how did
Speaker 3: that happen?
Speaker 7: I actually called Mike Golden at the police department and said,
Speaker 7: I am not doing well. It's been two years. I
Speaker 7: haven't moved forward at all. I need you to set
Speaker 7: up a private meeting. Because Ron was the first dnags
Speaker 7: honery in North Carolina. I mean he was about twenty
Speaker 7: third I think in the country. So everybody was trying
Speaker 7: to find the girl. Everybody wanted to find the girl.
Speaker 7: So I asked him to set up a private meeting
Speaker 7: where journalists couldn't find us because they were all trying
Speaker 7: to find me. So they set it up at a
Speaker 7: church that was about a mile and a half from
Speaker 7: where I had been raped thirteen years before that. And
Speaker 7: he didn't know where he was going, and I didn't
Speaker 7: know where I was going, so we couldn't accidentally leak
Speaker 7: it to anybody. And I found myself at the pastor
Speaker 7: study and looking out the window, I see this humongous
Speaker 7: six foot four man kind of walking towards the building.
Speaker 7: And I remember thinking, as I looked at him, because
Speaker 7: his wife was seeing him beside of him, who is
Speaker 7: my height? And the first thing I thought of was,
Speaker 7: my god, he's too tall. That my attacker had never
Speaker 7: been that tall. Now now it hit me because I
Speaker 7: had that relation right, I'm looking, I'm thinking, oh my god,
Speaker 7: he's huge, and he was five inches taller.
Speaker 3: What'd you say? What did you say? How did what happened?
Speaker 6: Well, my wife she didn't want me to go in
Speaker 6: the beginning, but I had to determine that I was
Speaker 6: going anyway. She said, no, you're not going. I said, yes,
Speaker 6: I am, I said, because there would be a book
Speaker 6: closed brain closure. So, you know, after I got dressed
Speaker 6: and I looked at my wife, she was there, and
Speaker 6: she said, well, I'm going too. So we jumped in
Speaker 6: my truck and we pull up and I'll get out
Speaker 6: and she gets out, and we met to take the
Speaker 6: goll and my lawyaf Tom Blambert, and Jennifer's husband was there.
Speaker 6: And so as we were getting ready to enter the
Speaker 6: room to go in to talk, Jennifer instructed that her
Speaker 6: husband stayed back and wasn't nobody but me, my wife,
Speaker 6: and Jennifer in the room. So when I walked in
Speaker 6: the room, Jennifer sitting just like she's sitting down with
Speaker 6: a Jane outfit on, and she had a nervous expression
Speaker 6: on her face. And I walked up and looked at her,
Speaker 6: and she looked at me and she said, I'm sorry.
Speaker 6: She said, I don't know how, I don't know what
Speaker 6: to call you, mister Cotton, Ronald Cotton, and she said
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, you know, and I said, I forgive you,
Speaker 6: and I hugged her, and you know, I she stood up.
Speaker 6: I hugged her. She cried, I cried, I said, grown
Speaker 6: me and nothing cried. But that's a lie. You know,
Speaker 6: you got it hard to have sympathy for people. You
Speaker 6: know you're gonna cry. You know, I don't care who
Speaker 6: you are. You know, you try to be hard all
Speaker 6: you want to. You know, people walk over you, you know,
Speaker 6: walk on you. And uh so after that, Jennifer and
Speaker 6: my wife, they stepped to the side, said the little
Speaker 6: private things that women say together, you know, to encourage
Speaker 6: each other to be strong and carry on. So then
Speaker 6: me and Jennifer, you know, after we went outside to
Speaker 6: leave the premises, but before that we exchanged phone numbers
Speaker 6: and you know, that way we can stay in contact
Speaker 6: with one another as time went by, and it was
Speaker 6: it's like a good story coming to an end, and
Speaker 6: you know, but we continue to stay in touch. And
Speaker 6: this book that he'll come about it. You know. I
Speaker 6: went on to be on Larry King Live and all
Speaker 6: those shows, you know, and people back and saying, but
Speaker 6: I didn't let it blow my head up become My
Speaker 6: head is already big enough, you see, had so I
Speaker 6: just went on with my life and she went on
Speaker 6: with her you know. But so it was one thing
Speaker 6: after another. You know, I met the kids and all,
Speaker 6: and she met my daughter after she come into this world,
Speaker 6: and it's just been an amazing thing, you know, to
Speaker 6: know that this book has been written and it's out
Speaker 6: and come together and it's been blossoming year after year.
Speaker 6: You know, it's been over thirty years now and they
Speaker 6: still talking about Peking Cotton and I believe my picking
Speaker 6: every day.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm a close I do want to get
Speaker 3: your perspective and your memories of that most incredible moment.
Speaker 3: I think it's a very brave thing that you did
Speaker 3: in a lot of ways. So what was that moment
Speaker 3: like for you.
Speaker 7: I went in thinking that probably the best case scenario
Speaker 7: out of this meeting is going to be Ronald looking
Speaker 7: at me, going okay, thanks for saying that. You know,
Speaker 7: I don't want you any harm, but just go away,
Speaker 7: Like that was going to be the best scenario. The
Speaker 7: worst was going to be, yeah, I'm screaming at me
Speaker 7: and wishing me death and destruction and terrible things. What
Speaker 7: I didn't expect was what happened, and that was you know,
Speaker 7: really looking at him sincerely, and I was sobbing telling
Speaker 7: him that if I spent the rest of my life
Speaker 7: telling you how sorry I am. Can you ever forgive me?
Speaker 7: And Ronald literally took my hands and started to cry
Speaker 7: and he said, I'm not angry at you. I forgave
Speaker 7: you years ago. And Bobby Pool did this to both
Speaker 7: of us, and we were both victims of this man.
Speaker 7: And it was really that foundation that we were able
Speaker 7: to love each other. And we spent the next two
Speaker 7: hours asking each other questions I think that we had
Speaker 7: wanted to ask each other all those eleven years. You know,
Speaker 7: why did you think it was me? And you know
Speaker 7: my question was, well, then if that if you weren't there,
Speaker 7: then where were you? You know, that type of thing,
Speaker 7: like trying to peel back the layers of the truth.
Speaker 7: And he really truly gave me back pieces of myself
Speaker 7: that I had lost and for the first time and
Speaker 7: thirteen years, there were parts of my spirit and my soul,
Speaker 7: my heart that kind of found a way back. And
Speaker 7: you know, by watching Ronald and his just incredible love,
Speaker 7: my next task was to find a way to let
Speaker 7: go of what Bobby Pool had done to me all
Speaker 7: those years ago, and you know, find a way to
Speaker 7: take my pack power back. Where do I want to
Speaker 7: give my power, and it sure as heck wasn't gonna
Speaker 7: be the Bobby Pool.
Speaker 3: So Bobby died in prison three years later after.
Speaker 7: He was exonerated.
Speaker 6: Yeah was he was he killed or he I had cancer. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I wanted to kill him though. I made me a weapon,
Speaker 6: and I was going to do it, you know, until
Speaker 6: my father payment visit, and uh, I told him what
Speaker 6: my intention were. And my father said, son, he said,
Speaker 6: don't do that. He said, you tell me you're a
Speaker 6: innocent man. I believe you're in it, he said, but
Speaker 6: if you kill him, he said, you're gonna be guilty.
Speaker 6: And so I walked away thinking of that for two weeks.
Speaker 6: You know, this guy he slept in the same dormitory
Speaker 6: that I slept in, maybe from here to over there,
Speaker 6: you know, the next room, and he walked by my
Speaker 6: bunk every day two or three times a day or
Speaker 6: maybe more, and worked in the same kitchen. And you know,
Speaker 6: it was hard for me not to do it. But
Speaker 6: I'm glad I didn't do it, you know. But I
Speaker 6: said a prayer to the Good Lord for me to
Speaker 6: forgive Jennifer making a costly mistake on my life. That's
Speaker 6: how I was able to face her without saying any
Speaker 6: bad things toward her. You know, I wanted to give
Speaker 6: her love Strent and lift her up in the world,
Speaker 6: you know, because you know, she had been down just
Speaker 6: like myself. So y'all were down during time. She was
Speaker 6: down in heart and in pain. I just had to
Speaker 6: put one foot in front of the other and keep
Speaker 6: on walking and you know, not be sad, but just
Speaker 6: continue living my life as I am today. But my
Speaker 6: life today is more in freedom and crime free.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an amazing, amazing thing. I never get tired
Speaker 3: of hearing these stories. It puts a lot of gratitude
Speaker 3: in my attitude, so thank you for that. I wanted
Speaker 3: to talk about compensation because it's a very bizarre system
Speaker 3: that we have in America because it varies wildly from
Speaker 3: state to state. And in your case, you were given
Speaker 3: ten thousand dollars a year, which is the North Carolina
Speaker 3: statute for or eleven years in present, one hundred and
Speaker 3: ten thousand dollars. How do you feel about that?
Speaker 6: Well, I felt bad about it at the beginning, but
Speaker 6: I had to accept it. You know, I would have
Speaker 6: fought for it, but it wouldn't have done any good
Speaker 6: you know, they already had their mind made up. I
Speaker 6: accepted and I walked away. You know, it's like they
Speaker 6: give me a little bit and packed on the shoulder, say,
Speaker 6: you know, enjoy life, Jason.
Speaker 7: It's important to note, though, that when he got compensated,
Speaker 7: the laws hadn't been changed for fifty years, so he
Speaker 7: was actually eligible for five hundred dollars a year with
Speaker 7: a cap of five thousand.
Speaker 6: Ye.
Speaker 7: So Mike Goalden and I lobbied the legislature has changed
Speaker 7: that to ten thousand dollars a year, and we thought
Speaker 7: we'd done this amazing thing. And then North Carolina changed
Speaker 7: it again in the early two thousands, two thousands to
Speaker 7: fifty thousand dollars a year with a cap of seven
Speaker 7: hundred and fifty thousand dollars. But they and make it
Speaker 7: retroactive to Ron.
Speaker 3: Well, I never understand that. So Jennifer, tell me about
Speaker 3: the work you've been doing with Healing Justice, because it's
Speaker 3: from what I've read, it seems like an extraordinary mission
Speaker 3: and it looks like it's making a real change.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 7: We launched Healing Justice three years ago because I became
Speaker 7: frustrated why we weren't addressing this long term damage done
Speaker 7: to everybody that gets harmed by a wrongful conviction. I
Speaker 7: would listen to crime survivors. I'd listen to family members
Speaker 7: of Exoneries and the ex Hooneries, and I would hear
Speaker 7: the stories about what they had lost. And you keep thinking,
Speaker 7: right that Pennsylvania is going to step up and fix
Speaker 7: the problems they created with ex houneries in Pennsylvania, and
Speaker 7: they weren't doing it. So I launched Healing Justice in
Speaker 7: twenty fifteen. And what we do is really look at
Speaker 7: the total harm done in our wrongful conviction and who
Speaker 7: gets impacted by it, and finding ways that we can
Speaker 7: address that harm in a myriad of ways, but probably
Speaker 7: the cornerstone program we do is we host healing retreats
Speaker 7: four times a year and we bring together about twenty
Speaker 7: five exgneries and their family members and crime survivors for
Speaker 7: a weekend. We pay for all of it, We fly
Speaker 7: them in, and we do healing circles. We have art,
Speaker 7: we address the harm, not the cases. We literally have
Speaker 7: people kind of unfold the grief sitting in a safe
Speaker 7: space with people who get it. Because unless you've traveled
Speaker 7: a road like Ron and I have traveled, you can't
Speaker 7: understand it, and so being in space with people who
Speaker 7: understand it, you don't have to explain why you feel depression,
Speaker 7: why you've had substance abuse issues, why you have family problems,
Speaker 7: like we understand it. So it's really a way of
Speaker 7: looking at the concentric circles of harm when the system fails.
Speaker 7: So the other thing we do is training for police
Speaker 7: and prosecutors about how do we address the aftermath of exonerations.
Speaker 7: You know, we're really we're not an innocence project. We
Speaker 7: really work on the aftermath, bringing folks together after the
Speaker 7: harm's been done. How do we heal from that place?
Speaker 7: I'm using restorative justice principles, using peer support. It's very
Speaker 7: unique and its kind because everything we do is driven
Speaker 7: by those who have lived it. So all of our
Speaker 7: expertise is being given to us by folks that have
Speaker 7: been impacted and harmed.
Speaker 3: And how do people get involved? How do they.
Speaker 7: Support www dot Healing Justice Project dot org. Do we
Speaker 7: really need the financial support to continue kind of expanding
Speaker 7: our work and bringing in more people. You know, we've
Speaker 7: got twenty two hundred wrongful convictions, so we have a
Speaker 7: lot of work ahead of us. We're excited about.
Speaker 3: It all right, So I'm going to give and I'm
Speaker 3: going to ask everybody else to do the same. And
Speaker 3: then we have a tradition here at Wrongful Conviction to
Speaker 3: turn the mic over to you for any closing thoughts. Ron,
Speaker 3: We're going to save you for last, Jennifer, the mic
Speaker 3: is yours.
Speaker 7: I really want people to understand that when a wrongful
Speaker 7: conviction happens, at the center of all of it is
Speaker 7: a perpetrator. And when we don't get it right, we've
Speaker 7: left the perpetrator on the streets to commit further harm,
Speaker 7: something that I refer to as wrongful liberty. And everybody
Speaker 7: needs to care about that. Everybody needs to know that
Speaker 7: when a wrongful conviction happens, the system has failed every
Speaker 7: single person except the perpetrator, and he is the only
Speaker 7: person who wins.
Speaker 6: Rod Well, when someone tells you that they are innocent,
Speaker 6: having an open ear and open eye to reach out
Speaker 6: and touch and love very much, because just putting on
Speaker 6: foot in front of it, you can't walk your way out.
Speaker 6: You have to work your way out. It's easy to
Speaker 6: say it than done. But I've learned my lesson. God,
Speaker 6: I've been there, I know how it is. I keep
Speaker 6: my head to the sky every day because I'm not
Speaker 6: ashamed from where I've been yet not knowing where I'm going.
Speaker 6: I'm on the road that I'm leading in the hands
Speaker 6: of the Good Lord because he knows best, and I
Speaker 6: will not follow the rest.
Speaker 10: Thank you, don't forget to give us a fantastic review.
Speaker 10: Wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3: It really helps.
Speaker 10: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and
Speaker 10: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
Speaker 10: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions.
Speaker 3: Go to Innocence Project dot or org to learn how
Speaker 3: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our
Speaker 3: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in
Speaker 3: the show is by three times pronominated composer Jay Ralph.
Speaker 3: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 3: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with
Speaker 3: Jason Flamm is a production of
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Speaker 10: one